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Thunderbolts is the latest Marvel movie, and this one's a bit more fun than they have been lately. It stars Florence Pugh, Sebastian Stan, David Harbour, and others as a bunch of emotionally broken super people who've done some very bad things. Will they manage to put their guilt aside and come together to form a ragtag team of losers who somehow manage to save the day? Are you seriously asking that question in 2025? I'm Glenn Weldon, and today we're talking about Thunderbolts on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.
Joining me today is Ronald Young Jr. He's the host of the film and television review podcast Leaving the Theater. Hello, Ronald. Hello, Glenn. Hello. Also with us is Daisy Rosario. She's the senior supervising producer of audio at Slate, where she works with shows like Death, Sex, and Money and Icy Why Am I. Hey, Daisy. Hey, Glenn. Happy to be here. Hey, Glenn.
Hey, hey. Hey, hey. Let's get to it.
In Thunderbolts, with an asterisk, long story, Florence Pugh returns as the former Black Widow agent Yelena. She's still reeling from her sister's death and feeling pretty crappy about her work as a covert operator for the CIA director named Valentina, played by Julia Louis-Dreyfus. Valentina is determined to cover up a secret project that somehow involves a squirrely guy named Bob, played by Lewis Pullman. But she's not.
But her attempt only succeeds in bringing together her other secret operatives, including an off-brand Captain America, Yelena's father, the Red Guardian, played by David Harbour, along with Ghost, whom you probably forgot was in Ant-Man 2, because I totally did, but she totally was.
Eventually, the team tries to take down Valentina and her project, whose superpower is wielding guilt, shame, and depression as a weapon. I dated a guy like that in my 20s. Thunderbolts is in theaters now. Jordan, let's kick off with you. What'd you think? Yeah, I really...
really had fun watching this. I think if you are someone who has tapped out on the MCU, I don't think this will bring you back in. It still has some of those frustrating things that I think keep people out of these movies these days. It has characters you have to remember Ant-Man sequels and Disney Plus shows and mobile games that have only come out in Wales to recognize. But
But I think that if you are still into this stuff and if you love this cast, I think you're going to have a blast here. With Marvel, one of their great strengths has always been casting. And I think everybody in here is really, really fun to watch. Florence Pugh in particular. I agree with that. Yeah, I'd agree. I enjoyed this movie more than I was expecting to. And that's not to say that I went in with crazy low expectations. You know, I've... Right.
was a really big fan of a lot of the Marvel movies leading up to end game have been, I think rightfully frustrated with the lack of quality and kind of more of them forgetting kind of what really worked about their own movies at various points.
But I really thought this one was a lot of fun. I thought they did do a good return to some of the things that they used to do well, where this felt like the humor was more based in the characters. It didn't feel like just the regular, like kind of overly humorous.
quippy jokes. Like they kind of let the humor live in other places and built around character dynamics. I also really, really liked Florence Pugh and I just found myself very charmed by her. I think this movie would have hit harder for me if they hadn't had so many other misses that I found really frustrating. I think I would have
Just enjoyed it even more. But actually, I thought it was a pretty good time. I just did like it. I thought the first act was very, very boring. I thought we've done a team up of ragtag superheroes or antiheroes in the Marvel Universe before with the Guardians of the Galaxy. So you had the blueprint to do it. The idea of like we're supposed to work together. We split apart. Somehow we come back together in a very like meaningful way.
I feel like this maybe kind of alluded to that a little bit, but didn't quite get there for me. I think that David Harbour was funny, and I do think that Florence Pugh was charming. I think that somehow all of them together, I didn't necessarily feel chemistry, and I think
the thing that gets me the most about Marvel movies is rewatchability. Like, I want to watch them over and over again. I don't ever want to watch this movie again. There was nothing in this movie that I'm like, oh man, I gotta see that one more time. The other thing, and the last thing I'll say is, when you have a threat of this size over New York, doing something that is this scary in the city for it not to even be mentioned, like, hey, this feels familiar, guys. Like, I
I feel like that feels like an oversight. And that might be some of the bloat that comes with connecting to the other films. But it just didn't have that much goodwill for me. And I feel like I walked into this movie and like, I expect this to be about a mid movie. And for me, it did not hit mid for me. And I want y'all to know I'm not an MCU hater. I'm an MCU stan.
Sure. And I felt disappointed here. Ronald, I understand your argument that, you know, we do have to acknowledge how often New York is getting attacked in these movies. Do you think it would have helped if a cab driver would have turned to camera and said, here we go again? Yeah.
That would honestly, Jordan, I know you're kidding, but that would have been fine. If they would have been like, not this again or something along the lines. Because I think the humanity of the people, anything like that, because I feel like the humanity of the people is completely overlooked. Like, for instance, during the limo chase scene, there's a scene where they're being chased by these people in Humvees. It's in the preview. And I realize if you watch that scene again, you don't see a human driving the Humvees.
until the very last second. I was like, do we care about them or these people? And I felt like that element just made me say, okay, well then I expect more from the ensemble and then feel like I didn't get that except again for David Harbour, bless him. And again, Florence Pugh was wonderful. I agree with those points. Just the rest of it wasn't there for me.
I will say, though, that when the world has gone crazy for so long, you stop remarking on the day-to-day craziness. Yeah. That's certainly true. That's valid. Sure. Look, I'm going to go with mid here. I think this slots neatly into what Marvel's been doing. I do think it does it better than a lot of the recent stuff because I do think these jokes land better, and I think that has to do with delivery. I'll talk about that. But—
But my reaction slots in neatly with a lot of my action to a lot of Marvel stuff lately, which is Doug the jokes. The emo stuff at the end especially left me cold. But man, I do like Florence Pugh's take on Yelena. You've all mentioned it. She does great things, which what now has become the Marvel brand of humor, which is, I guess, Jordan, you'd call it what de-escalation, right? Where there's some ridiculous trope about superhero stuff.
And the joke is, I'm going to point out how ridiculous it is. Sure. And that's the joke. And then the thing it is, though, that Florence Pugh does that, she tosses them away. She never lunges at them. She never underlines them. It's the only way that kind of joke can work, especially when it's as wall-to-wall as it is in this movie. Are you listening, Ryan Reynolds? No, I know for a fact you're not. No.
Because I saw Deadpool Wolverine. You have gin to sell, Ryan Reynolds. I enjoyed this along the way, but then we get to what I suppose is inevitable when you stock your film with this many emotionally damaged people, which is you get the final battle as therapy session.
The Goodwill hunting ending, the it's not your fault. Inside out too. Inside out too. And on paper, sure, the reason people who complain about superhero fatigue, what they say that they don't like is it's all cosmic stakes. There's no human emotional stakes. I think this is an overcorrection. I think this is all human emotional stakes and
And when you end with a mental health reconciliation, I'm sorry to me, it's giving CW, it's giving Buffy Supernatural Charm season finale, and that's not necessarily a dig, but it's just a reference to how often...
This has been done. There's no meat left on that particular bone. I will say, I think the filmmakers would say that this is a movie about depression. And I think in a lot of ways, it does a pretty good job of that. And I think the thing you mentioned about Florence Pugh is she's kind of throwing this stuff away. And I think it is a funny delivery, but I also think it fits with her character. She is a super spy who is bored with her life and wants something more. And
I think that's a fun kind of character that we haven't seen in these movies before. A lot of the comic book characters these days are kind of just like generic super guy and occasionally generic super gal. She's bringing a little bit of spice to this. It is a very funny way to deliver a joke, that kind of blasé, I'm bored. But also, I think it fits with the character and the theme of this movie. And I think by the end, it does...
Get a little sweaty. This is about depression. It goes from a little spice in the movie to, you know, you're getting bonked on the head by it. But I do think it's neat to see one of these movies with something on its mind other than like...
I don't know. Maybe the theme is always do your best. Or maybe the theme is family is important. It is nice to see one of these with stuff on its mind. And it's nice to see a third act that isn't like we got to close the portal. Or two people with beam weapons shoot the beam weapons at each other. And they hit in the middle. And eventually one beam weapon overcomes the other one. Yes. So...
You can definitely quibble about how that stuff was accomplished, but I kind of appreciated that it was there, and I think it hit sometimes. Yeah, it didn't bother me. For me, that's kind of the stuff that I actually am more inclined towards. I enjoy that more than some of the other options that are out there. Maybe it's because of my own CPTSD, but I'm like, this never leaves you. It's exhausting. Yeah.
But also, again, like for me, thematically, I was thinking of it less as depression, which is definitely very clearly there as well and more of a larger like mental health thing. And also, you know, feeling very aware that we're living in a time where we keep talking about how like we need more community rather than isolation. That's.
how we're going to get through life right now. And so to me, it just felt it had its finger on the pulse, if you will, in a way that is not always true for some of these Marvel movies. But I just really like,
Felt like it was justified in some of the characters. And I also felt like Lewis Pullman had a good performance. Like I enjoyed him as well. I appreciated how much he looks like his dad, Bill Pullman, who I have nothing but affection for. Did not know that was his father until today. Now I get it. I do have one last thing that I need to point out because my brain got so excited by how stupid it is, which is just, this is Lewis Pullman's
major role as a Bob. He's just Bob in this movie and he was in Top Gun Maverick as the only person who had a call sign that was not like an interesting name. His name was Bob. So I don't know what it is about him being Bob where half the joke is just that the name Bob doesn't quite convey the strength of his character but I like that trivia. If it works, it works. You need a Bob, give me a call. Yeah.
I don't know. I'm watching MCU movies because I like the punching and kicking and I like the quips and all that, you know? And I feel like at one point in the movie, they show up as a team and start beating the crap out of these soldiers. And I was like, finally, just give me this for the third act. And I feel like when it slipped out of that into something else, and then eventually when it resolves at whatever place, Glenn, I'm like you saying, what? Like, where did this happen? Where were you all? It was the friends we made along the way.
way. Correct. Yeah, that's the thing. I like both parts, you know? But I feel like you get that in Guardians of the Galaxy when they hold hands in order to disperse the Infinity Stone. I'm like, you get a little taste of that, which is like seasoning, as opposed to just being like, we're going to do all that, which is just a pot of seasoning. No liquid, just seasoning. I just don't agree. Can we talk about Julia Louis-Dreyfus? I really like what she brings to the MCU and
And in interviews, she's mentioned how she was eager to get into this. You know, she's done previous things for Marvel with this character because it's something she'd never done before, she says. I'm sorry. She might not have done Marvel movies before, but this is Selina Meyer. This is Selina Meyer in a Josie and the Pussycats Alexandra wig. There is no daylight between Selina Meyer and Valentina Meyer.
She treats her underlings exactly the same way. She's just as scheming and just as funny. Yeah. Daisy and I left the theater and said the exact same thing. We said, there's no difference here, which is fine. I love Selina Meyer and I love Julie Louis-Dreyfus, but is it a big deal that it's Selina Meyer, I guess, is the real question. Does this lead to Tony Hale playing Colossus at some point? If that happens.
I think we'll all be excited. Kevin Feige, call me. I've got ideas. It's hard for Julia Louis-Dreyfus to do any wrong, honestly. She's just, she's great. She's fun to watch. She is great. I do think that these movies do have villain problems a lot of times. Oh, yeah. The villains can be kind of generic and it is nice to see a villain that has like
a thing and is funny and is, you know, kind of complicated. So, yeah, I like her a lot, you know, even though this is a lane that she's driven in before. When you talk about the villain, it just occurred to me that in terms of the villain in this movie,
This villain is not very different from the villain in Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness in terms of like the type of temperament that is causing the issue and the darkness with everything. Because these superheroes are all punching and kicking superheroes. You know what I mean? It just felt like, why wouldn't we give someone that matches that, that they can actually defeat as opposed to like, you know, having to rely on the power of friendship. Yeah.
You know, I do realize that we're talking about this movie in terms of like all the other movies. And it's hard not to, you know, when things are this interconnected and this like, you know, kind of all consuming. But when these started, they were pretty reliable and sturdy. You kind of knew what you were going to get. And even the ones that were a triple and not a home run were still really fun to watch.
And I think that like we are now in a state where they got cranked out too fast. But I think we're now in a phase where like they're just going to be more hit and miss. And I think if you're out there and you're going, oh, my God, do I see this one? You know, just pay attention to your reviews a little closer. It's maybe not something you're just automatically buying a ticket to on opening night. Yeah. But I do still think there is like a lot of fun in this franchise. And if you don't mind, Rob,
skipping some things and then maybe doing a little Wikipedia research before you go into the movie. I think there's still a lot of fun here. Yeah. And not to spoil anything, but the very final exchange of dialogue in this film is about diluted branding and not living up to a name and
And I have to feel that that is intentional. I have to feel that they knew exactly what they were doing there and that that is a setup to phase six, whatever the hell that means. Oh, yeah. I definitely feel like they were like, look, we can't fix everything, but we need you to know that we have heard some of what you said. Not all of what you said, but some of what you said. Phase six, it's coming and it's all musicals.
Whoa! Again, from your mouth, man. I mean, like, I would not hate that. Again, I got ideas. All right, well, tell us what you think about Thunderbolts. Find us on Facebook at facebook.com slash p-c-h-h and on Letterboxd at letterboxd.com slash nprpopculture. We'll have a link in our episode description. Up next, what's making us happy this week? This message comes from NPR sponsor Disney+. See you next time.
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Now it is time for our favorite segment of this week and every week. What is making us happy this week? Jordan Morris, kick us off. What's making you happy this week, sir? Yeah, I want to recommend a graphic novel that you can grab when you're out there at your local comic book store picking up your Thunderbolts issues to bone up for the movie.
I just read a great graphic novel called You Belong Here, written by Sarah Phoebe Miller, illustrated by Morgan Beam. It is kind of a YA coming-of-age story about senior year of high school. It just does, like, a really great job of capturing just how, like, emotionally fraught and, like, hyper-specific that year is. Yeah, it's got really, really lovely art, and I think it'd make a great graduation gift if you've got anybody in that age range in your life.
Super bonus points if they're a theater kid, because there's a lot of great jokes and observations about being a theater kid, which I really appreciate it. Yeah, it's called You Belong Here, and it's great. Thank you very much, Jordan Morris. That sounds great. Daisy Rosario, what is making you happy this week? So what's making me happy? I was recently scrolling through YouTube, as I am wont to do, and I came across
this video that's part of a series that I've really enjoyed before. It's called I Like to Watch, and it is a YouTube series, essentially a Netflix sponsorship, where drag queens who have been on RuPaul's Drag Race watch Netflix releases and talk about them. The U.S. version features Katya and Trixie Mattel, but the one I came across was the U.K. version, and it was an episode with Tia Coffey and the Vivian, who is a fantastic drag queen who actually
actually just recently passed away. She's so funny. So I immediately hit play on this video because they were talking about the thing that is actually making me happy, which is not a new movie, but it makes me so happy every time I'm reminded of it. Eurovision song contest, the story of fire saga. I love this ridiculous Will Ferrell, Rachel McAdams movie on Netflix. I have watched it.
a bunch of times. I will watch it many more. It was so fun to watch these two Queens who I love watch a truncated version of it and make very good jokes. And then of course I had to actually go watch it again. It is such a treat. The Eurovision song contest itself. I know PCHH has covered before it's coming up just a few weeks away. So this could be a fantastic way to wet your appetite. Um,
I love it. So the main recommendation is Netflix's Eurovision Song Contest, The Story of Fire Saga movie. You know, technically a secondary recommendation of watching this YouTube series I like to watch with the queens Tia Coffey and the Vivian. Rest in peace, the Vivian. That is a great recommendation. Thank you for that, Daisy. I was down on the Eurovision movie when it first came out because I thought, why would we make fun of something that knows how to make fun of itself? Yeah.
But I have since come around. It's great. And Husavik should have won the Oscar for best song. Yes. Well, that leads me directly into my recommendation because I think, Daisy, you can feel it in the air. You can smell the smoke and the glitter and the sequined glue and the dance belts and the sweat. That is the smell of Eurovision, baby. And it's bearing down on us all. The 2025 Eurovision final will air on Peacock on Saturday, May 17th.
It is the 69th Eurovision Song Contest, and some countries are having a bit more fun with that than others. There's a lot of songs with very kind of cheesy single entendres this year, but you've got to deal with that. My favorite entry plays a lot more straight. It's from Sweden, and that's controversial because historically Sweden are the Yankees of Eurovision. I had to look that reference up. They win a lot is what I'm saying. Yeah.
But I can't help it. I love Sweden's entry. They're actually a Finnish group called Kai. They are singing in Swedish, which turns out to be a big deal because it's the first time Sweden has said a song in Swedish since 1998. The song is called Bada Bada Bastu, and it's about going to the sauna because, of course, it is. Bada Bada Bastu. Bada Bada Bastu. Bada Bada Bastu.
Sauna. Sauna. In case you're wondering, because I'm sure you are, the lyrics there are, we're going to sauna, sauna. Steam it up and let go of all stress today. Sauna brothers, we're the ones who glow. 100 degrees, oh yes, just sauna, sauna. Throw it on till the sweat just sprays. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Sauna. Yeah, yeah. And at that point, one of the band members just goes sauna, which is an interjection that has gotten a lot of use in the Weldon Nunez household. For no reason, just throw in the sauna every so often and your day will get better. Eurovision is on Peacock on Saturday, May 17th. All right, let's close out.
with Ronald Young Jr. Ronald Young Jr., what is making you happy this week? I feel like my pick is just not as good as the Eurovision double feature we just had. Few things are. I will say, speaking of sequins, glue, and sweat, Andor is back on Disney+. I think Andor is...
The best thing Star Wars has made since the original trilogy, if I'm being honest. It's a boots-on-the-ground version of the Star Wars universe where we're talking about people that are actually in the rebellion, experiencing the oppression of the Empire. It's a spinoff of Rogue One, if folks liked that movie. But it's back for season two. And it's funny because they're advertising it as the final season, which I love that they're ending it.
it's over. Meaning that it, it has a great shot of ending very, very well. I watched the first three episodes. I was perfectly satisfied with them. I know they're going on a journey and I feel like if you're not a fan of star Wars, I think you would still like Andor. And if you are a fan of star Wars and you don't like Andor, then I'm,
I'm wondering what exactly do you like about Star Wars? And I'm assuming it's the space wizards and the laser swords, which some people prefer. So if that's your jam, then that's what it is. But that's Andor on Disney+. All right, so Ronald Young Jr., that's what's making you happy this week. If you want links for what we recommended, plus some more recommendations, sign up for our newsletter at npr.org slash popculturenewsletter. That brings us to the end of our show. Daisy Rosario, RonaldYoungJr.com.
Jordan Morris, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Great to be here. Yeah, this was a blast. Thank you so much. This episode was produced by Mike Katzeff and Liz Metzger and edited by Jessica Reedy, and Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thanks for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Glenn Weldon, and we'll see you all next week. Souda!
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