AI, Technology, Art & Culture - Artists, Philosophers, Economists & Scientists discuss the Future
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One of the key themes of the book is that what drives growth in the end is technological progress. We discover new ideas about the world, we discover new ways of making use of finite resources that we have, and another word for that is that we generate technological progress. And so one of the arguments is that we have a choice. We not only have more or less growth, but we can also change the nature of growth. The same is true of our technologies too.

It's the same story. We can have more technological progress and less technological progress, but we can also have different types of technological progress. We can develop technologies in society that make us more prosperous, but also don't damage the environment, don't widen inequalities in society. And so actually, deeper down, it really is a book about technology, because at the moment, I think we've got the wrong kind. And those two previous books are a kind of look at arguably the sort of wrong kind of technological progress.

I worry that in decades to come, technology might have a very harmful impact on our working lives. And so in a way, this book is a kind of generalization of those ideas that I developed in those earlier books. Well, of course, they're being nudged because, for example, we know that some of the algorithms that Facebook was using highlight or tend to make prominent posts

that engage people the most. And in that medium, what can engage people the most is often your sense of outrage, often a sense of fear or anger. And so if the goal is to keep people on the platform as long as possible,

then you have to appeal to aspects of the human personality that are not necessarily the aspects that you want to appeal to if what you're looking for is a healthy, deliberative public sphere. So there's a tension between what democracy needs

in order to sustain our democratic institutions over the long run and sustain our liberties over the long run. And what it is that a for-profit commercial corporation needs to do in order to maximize people's time on social media in order to increase their profits.

I toggle between being terrified about it and not worrying about it at all. I have not spent a lot of time playing with chat GPT or Gemini or whatever they are. I don't want to know if it can write my show better than I can, and it's entirely possible maybe it can, but it's a brand new technology we know is going to change our lives, and we don't have any idea what's going to happen.

And I very much am not looking to predict the way world-changing technology is going to unfold on a practical level in our lives. My father was a nuclear engineer. He built nuclear power plants. And he believed that he was creating a form of energy that would save the world and it did not entirely go that way. But he had a

little framed New Yorker cartoon on his desk of an old woman in a rocking chair looking up at a light bulb with like evil little waves coming down from it as if the light bulb was going to poison her. And that idea, the idea that when electricity, when the light bulb was first invented, it seemed threatening and it seemed like it would poison us and it seemed like it would be the

the enemy. I like to think that, A, I won't be, and I also definitely have the humility to say I don't have the imagination to look forward and see how it will unfold. I think it's amazing to be alive when two of those sort of societal transitions are happening. You know, I live through the internet's birth and kind of takeover of our lives, and I

I don't think anybody anticipated that it would become a shopping mall in the way it did. I think that I don't have the imagination and in a lot of ways don't want to have the imagination to try to see where this is going. I think it's very easy to spin out apocalyptic disaster scenarios.

And I don't want to live my life that way. I hope it all works out. I hope that the computers don't win, obliterate us completely. But I also hope the planet doesn't burn. I think that...

We have to do what we can in the time that we're here to make the world safe and viable and meaningful for as many people as we can. And then we have to say, I'm going to pass this along to the next generation and know that they'll do their best.

I can really resonate with what you say there and this actually also links to the rise of AI and the implications that that has for the art world and for us as creators because as we produce, let's say, shapes on a paper or with our body we conform to an aesthetic standard

Or we make music that sounds in a specific way. So syncopation is now the big thing. It will induce people to groove and to like your music more. So let's have a lot of syncopation inside your music and you'll sell a lot. So by doing this chase for the beauty, for this superficial beauty, which is what AI gives us at the moment, it gives us perfect outcomes. Not that any of what they produce, these models is perfect because how do you evaluate perfection? But they are based on values.

the data that most people want to see again. So that is extremely important to bear in mind. And so when you say cluttered mind, that is actually also a cluttered brain in the sense of what neurotransmitters are out and about there. So as we strive after that perfect coding and that

external beauty, our brain again has all these little dopamine signals. Dopamine is good. Dopamine is a learning signal to the brain, but we need to know how to use it. So if we constantly swipe our phone, get this beauty into our brain, basically by our eyes in this case or via the syncopations and the music,

We are teaching our mind to seek that all the time because that's a dopamine signal. It's a learning signal. So that clutters your mind to strive after these shapes and this kind of sound cue or whatever it is.

repeatedly. So that clutters your brain and that's why your mind is full. So this is a process that we're only starting to uncover now, which is also why it's important to work with people who are not just hardcore neuroscientists who can tell you about how the brain interacts with its environment, because what it does is that it teaches us about the unrestful mind, a mind that can't stay put.

I think AI is very interesting on the creative side of things because it can give you different perspectives. Again, coming back to perspectives, obviously copyright issues are very, very important. That's what belongs to us in many respects.

I think the most inspiring thing truly though about AI is in the medical field and the way that we hope to be able to find treatments and cures that did not exist before. And we're already seeing even

within the last few months, if not the last year, how changes are coming. I think that's a really good thing for us on the whole in regards to the medical field, as long as we can get our hands on what helps us. There was a thing that I went to once. The CIA invited a bunch of writers for film and TV to come in and take a tour and learn about

the various different capabilities that the CIA is working with, technologies that they're developing, what the work really looks like behind the scenes. And it was just mind-boggling how much knowledge and technological capacity they have and the

different kinds of specializations people have. And then at the end of this really eight hours of touring and talking to different people in different areas, we all had to leave and we had passes that opened the doors and the passes didn't work.

So we had been there all day hearing about the great technology, and then the special passes couldn't get us out the door. So for 20 minutes, 12 writers sat there watching the most capable and well-meaning people who are fighting for their country every day

fail to get the gate to open, you know? So that, to me, is such a perfect moment of what it means to be a power in this world. There are certain ways in which we are an incredibly powerful country. There are certain ways in which our military is mighty and our intelligence services are unparalleled. But then when push comes to shove, you're still dealing with a piece of machinery that half the time doesn't work.

I was listening to an interview this morning where a general was saying, you know, like, good luck finding a charging station in the middle of a battlefield. Like, we are, I think, very much coming up against the limitations of, you know, what the digital technology that we've developed over the last 75 years in this country can do. We rely on it so heavily, but it doesn't work all the time. And I don't know, it makes me give all.

Let's completely talk about technology and the role of humanity and of being human and what it means to be present in that. We need to keep humans at the center of everything that we do. That everything that we do in our life is about humans. It begins with humans and it ends with humans. There might be technologies and businesses and all these things in between, but we should measure

by the effect on humans. When I talk to people about artificial intelligence or technology, I'm generally asking them two questions. What are you optimizing for? What's the effect that you're trying to get? Developing technology for technology's sake, although it can be kind of interesting, and that then is why you're doing it, because you think it's interesting, but then ultimately, if you're doing it beyond your own gratification, why? Why are you doing it?

The Creative Process Podcast is supported by the Jan Michalski Foundation. We hope you've enjoyed this program. To hear more from these guests, listen to their full interviews. These interviews were conducted by Mia Funk with the participation of collaborating universities and students. Associate Interviews Producer on this episode was Sophie Garnier. If you'd like to get involved with our creative community, exhibitions, podcasts, or submit your creative works for review, just drop us a line at team at creativeprocess.info. Thanks for listening.