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cover of episode Nir Eyal — The Psychology of Addictive Products (EP.266)

Nir Eyal — The Psychology of Addictive Products (EP.266)

2025/5/1
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Infinite Loops

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J
Jim O'Shaughnessy
美国著名投资者和量化股票分析先驱,创立了奥沙恩斯资产管理公司,并著有多本投资经典著作。
N
Nir Eyal
专注于行为科学和生产力提升的投资者、作家和讲师。
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Jim O'Shaughnessy: 我很好奇你如何看待利用你的技术来影响用户行为的道德问题,以及AI在其中的作用。 我注意到你的书《Hooked》中提到的四步循环模型(触发、行动、奖励、投入)非常有效,但同时也担心它会被用于操纵用户,特别是那些容易受到情绪影响的用户。例如,Robinhood这样的平台,虽然表面上是教育用户投资理财,但实际上却更像是在鼓励用户进行高风险的交易。 此外,我还关注到Elon Musk对Twitter的改造,以及它对用户习惯的影响。你认为这些改变是好是坏? 最后,如果让你成为世界统治者,你会在全球范围内传播哪些理念,以改善人类的生活? Nir Eyal: 我认为《Hooked》这本书的核心在于帮助人们理解如何培养用户的习惯,从而提高客户留存率。这适用于各种类型的产品,包括企业级产品和消费级产品。在AI时代,培养用户习惯变得更加重要,因为产品可以通过用户互动获得更多数据,从而提升价值。 关于道德问题,关键在于区分“劝说”和“胁迫”。劝说帮助人们做他们自己想做的事情,而胁迫则是强迫人们做他们不想做的事情。区分的关键在于用户是否会后悔使用你的产品。如果用户后悔,那么这不仅是不道德的,也是糟糕的商业行为。 至于Twitter的改变,我认为Elon Musk的目标是让用户留在平台上,通过减少链接优先级来实现这一点。但这可能会导致一部分用户离开,因为他们觉得这种方式对他们获取信息没有帮助。 如果让我成为世界统治者,我会传播两个理念:第一,相信你自己的自主能力,相信你可以选择自己的信仰;第二,冲动的解药是预见性,未雨绸缪才能避免冲动行为带来的负面后果。

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Shownotes Transcript

Author, speaker, founder, investor and behavioral design maestro Nir Eyal joins me for his second appearance on the show.

Today, we dig into Nir’s first book, “Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products.” We also discuss the difference between coercion and persuasion, AI’s use case as our personal Jiminy Cricket and MUCH more!

I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. For the full transcript, episode takeaways, and bucketloads of other goodies designed to make you go, “Hmm, that’s interesting!”, check out our Substack).

Important Links:

Show Notes:

  • What Makes Silicon Valley’s Tech Products So Sticky?
  • The Morality of Manipulation
  • The Perils of Legalized Gambling
  • Twitter is for Journalists and Nerds
  • AI for Behavioural Design
  • Believing in our own Agency
  • On Labels and Limiting Identities
  • Pills Don’t Teach Skills
  • The Power of an Internal Locus of Control
  • Escaping Discomfort & Getting Hooked
  • AI as a Self-Directed Personal Tutor
  • Nir As Emperor of the World

Books Mentioned:

  • Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products; by Nir Eyal
  • Influence; by Robert Cialdini
  • Sick Souls, Healthy Minds: How William James Can Save Your Life; by John Kaag