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Discussion keeps the world turning. This is Roundtable. You're listening to Roundtable with myself, He Young. I'm joined by Yushun in the studio and Bob Jones via video link. Coming up, your boss isn't a fire-breathing dragon, but they're not an all-knowing saint either. Managing up
is a strategic approach to understanding your manager's goals and communication style, enabling you to align your efforts and drive better business outcomes together. We discuss how exactly do you go about it. And morning shower, night shower, sometimes shower? Or like a select group of Hollywood celebrities, no shower at all?
We're about to shake up everything you thought you knew about showering. Our podcast listeners can find us at Roundtable China on Apple Podcast. Now let's move on to the next topic discussion today.
Managing up is a work strategy. It's about guiding your boss through smart, empathetic communication to create a win-win partnership. It's not supposed to be about manipulation or just trying to please. If misused, managing up can feel political or insincere.
which may harm trust and teamwork. Today, let's explore how to practice managing up authentically and professionally to support both your success and a healthy work environment. We often hear about managing teams downwards, but what about managing up or 向上管理 in Chinese?
You should give us a little bit more on the origin of managing up as a leadership work strategy. Yeah, although similar concepts on influencing your boss have existed for a long time, it is believed that the term managing up was first popularized by Roseanne Badowski, who spent over a decade as Jack Welsh's executive assistant at General Electric. She then formal formalized the concept
in her book Managing Up in October 2004. And today, Managing Up features prominently in corporate training programs, MBA courses, and executive coaching, which is testament to its enduring relevance. Oh, what a nightmare. Why? Oh, it's, you know, where do you start with this one? Because I think it really does depend on the kind of team that you're working in.
And I've had good experiences and bad experiences, certainly with one company, which started off by being very top down, which means that you were an employee and there were next to no opportunities to actually express yourself and say, well, maybe we could do things a different way. Or, you know, you as a boss, you know, maybe you could do things a different way to make me feel happier. That just wasn't the way it was. It was very structured and you did what you were told and that was it.
And then they went through a bit of a culture change and they said, right, we're going to have performance reviews, which means that we'll look down on you and tell you what you're doing right or wrong. And then you'll have the opportunity to look towards us and tell us what we're doing right or wrong as bosses.
And it didn't work. It just can't be done because there are so many pitfalls when it comes to making even innocent things like making suggestions about how you might be able to do the work better can come across as being aggressive or even suggesting that your boss can't do the job properly. Mm hmm.
I have had good experiences as well in some businesses where you almost felt as though you didn't know the management was there and they were really good and they were very friendly. They became almost like your friends. But at the end of the day, you all knew that you had a task to do and everybody had a place. Everybody had a role to play in making sure that that task actually happened. So, for example, if
we had a project, an ongoing project, then the boss might come down and sit with us and say, well, what do you reckon? How are we going to do this? And would get a response from them. Then we would actually tell the boss, this is what you need to do to help us do this. So it was very much more collegiate. It was more sort of collaboration in terms of management. But I can't quite see how managing up
Unless you have a very enlightened boss, you have a boss who really understands what's going on. At the end of the day, the boss is the boss. The boss is in charge. The boss has to carry the can if something goes wrong. So with that comes a certain amount of status.
And I think if you start undermining that status, that's not a good look if you're in a business. Yeah, I always also think you need to be really, really clever to maybe require your boss to do certain things for you. Or we say you
You might think you are managing up, but in reality, maybe you are just doing what your manager wants you to do. And you may not even be aware of that kind of maybe leadership techniques that your boss has been involved. And so that's why I was thinking maybe managing up this thing is more about finding a communication style that both employees and leaders feel comfortable with and can accept.
Never assume that you fully understand how your company or the whole society operates. Of course, confidence is a good thing, but it's also important to remember there's an old Chinese saying, "There's always a higher mountain." "Yi shan gen you yi shan gao." Meaning that there's always someone better or something beyond your current understanding.
Yeah, I think have a map in your mind is good, but still have a mutual understanding is also very important. I think you raised two very important things there. One is the first, I think you were being very, very careful about what you say.
about manipulation that sometimes you can manipulate your boss because you can make it sound as if they had the good idea or you can you can try and change their behavior by a little bit of psychology and that of course it can go horribly wrong and
But also I was thinking that bosses have bosses. You're entirely right. And you don't know as an employee what they have to face. And they will perhaps be also be trying to manage up. They'll be trying to work with their own boss to try and make sure, even to try and protect the team that they have underneath.
They are like a gatekeeper in a sense of making sure that their own team, their own little kingdom, is going to be safe. And they also have the job of trying to...
I don't know how you would do this as a boss, to be honest. You're looking two ways. I think the Romans had a two-faced god, didn't they? A Janus or something, where you actually can look two ways at exactly the same time and somehow try and find some kind of compromise in the middle. I think it's an incredibly difficult... But you raised some...
exactly the right points there, that it's so difficult to find the right way to do it. And don't go overboard. Don't be too manipulative. Yeah. Actually,
Playing tricks is something that comes visible so easily in the eyes of most people because you're all in this workplace. And how did your boss get into his or her position by playing these tricks? So I think it's kind of dangerous to feel like you can outsmart other people, especially those who got promoted before you did. But also, I think
what's kind of refreshing in this debate of managing up is that bosses are human beings. They are subject to the same kind of emotions as everybody else. They're not invincible. They're not always so intelligent and
extra smart or whatever it is. And I think putting that into the reasonable perspective, I think is a good starting point. And what you guys mentioned about your boss, some mountain thing or whatever it is, to me, essentially, this is about information asymmetry. That is, your boss usually knows more about what's going on in the organization about a particular project, and they don't always bother or they don't
They don't have to let you know every nitty gritty detail and therefore you don't necessarily have all the information to come up with the best solution for the team. So sometimes trying to influence the overall trajectory is just impossible.
And one thing that I would kind of disagree with how maybe we perceive this as opposed to what Bob said earlier. Okay, maybe what you want is I want my boss to change X, Y, Z so it makes my life easier. But I don't think we can think like that because if we do, unless you're a complete genius, then it will backfire. So the way to look at it is, okay, I don't completely believe this, but this is what the theory goes is,
So you're making your boss's life easier. So when you're proposing what you want to do here, and then he or she will come on board easier. For example, if you're raising this problem that you're facing with your work to your boss, come up with possibly one or two or three plans ahead.
how your boss could deal with this problem instead of just presenting the problem, but actually offer some ideas of solutions that your boss could pick from.
I know that's difficult and you could ask, that is above my pay grade. If I can do that, I will become the boss and not the subordinate. But I think maybe managing up has something to do with this kind of mindset instead of just, oh, making my life easier, boss. Bob, what do you think? You partly answered my thinking actually there. It comes down to what is going to be best for the business and the company is
is if it does well. Now, if you can... To do that, you need your boss to tell you or to give you the information so that you can do your job properly. So you have to communicate to the boss
That that is what you need and they don't they wouldn't always know what you know what you don't know What kind of information you need? So yeah, I mean it comes down to you have to find some kind of way where that the boss doesn't feel threatened that you're asking for certain information, but at the same time as you say They have the bigger picture. They know what's going on. They know what they can tell you and
and what they can't tell you. So yeah, I mean, how do you do that? I don't think anybody's found a perfect way yet. Yeah. And also, I was thinking, this is a process of you and your boss, you're building the trust with each other, you know, proactively addressing some potential, maybe misunderstanding and conflicts, and also ensure your achievements are recognized. It's not like
You are only building trust with each other by telling them what you've done, but telling them that what you need in the way that telling them that you are actually doing something, but there is maybe some obstacles in front of you. And I think that is also trying to make your boss understand what you're actually doing, because sometimes they only know the results of your work, but not fully understand the process of your job.
Could you guys give us some ways in successfully managing up? Oh, now I would go back to the idea of manipulation, a little bit of psychology there. Does that make me a bad person? I hope not. No, never. But I would say that you just...
You need to work out what makes your boss happy, what makes them more receptive to your ideas. Don't go in there and become conflictual about what you're trying to say, but certainly find out how much they want you to offer your opinions before you actually give them. Find a way to communicate within the team.
And teams differ. I mean, there are good teams and there are bad teams, but they all have their own internal culture and you have to find out what that is so that everybody can work smoothly together. I would say that depends on different scenarios that you may come across during your jobs. But all in all, I think, as I said, generally talk to your boss and tell them what you're thinking. And you are not doing this just because of your personal benefits, but for yourself.
the whole good of the company. But I would offer a word of warning that this could all go horribly, horribly wrong. That if you start maybe suggesting too much or maybe coming up with too many ideas, and especially if those ideas are better than your boss's, the boss's boss may come to hear about it and will say, "Hey, I've got the wrong person in that job and maybe this person is going to be better." Now,
Maybe that'll happen naturally and maybe that you'll get promotion and maybe that you'll be able to get away from the aggravation and the
Oh, should we talk about hatred that you might suddenly find in a workplace? You want to avoid that. There's going to be ways to do it, but just be very, very careful. You're listening to Roundtable. Coming up, let's talk about something we all do or don't do. Shower time. Spoiler, not everyone's scrubbing down daily. Stay tuned.
Looking for passion? How about fiery debate? Want to hear about current events in China from different perspectives? Then tune in to Roundtable, where East meets West and understanding is the goal. You're listening to Roundtable with myself, He Yang. I'm joined by Bob Jones via video link and Yushun in the studio with me.
Not like this is any of my business. Do you shower every day? Are you a scrub-and-go morning person, or do you prefer to wind down with a pre-bed rinse or bath? We all know the shower debate is real, but here's the kicker. Do you really need a daily shower? And if so, when's the best time? So no need for a daily shower, apparently. What is this supported by?
Yes, and before we get into that, I would like to list out some of the stats that people internationally and how often they shower. A 2015 survey by Spanish media showed that Brazilians bathe an average of 12 times per week, while Colombians and Australians average 10 and 8 times respectively. And in comparison, Chinese people bathe roughly once every two days on average. That sounds very low.
But this data is a bit outdated and as far as I know, most people around me do take a shower every day. Especially online, there are often debates about this. Some say that people in northern regions don't shower daily due to the colder climate while in the south where it's warmer, most people do shower every day.
Yet, dermatologists say that many people do not need or may not want to shower this frequently. You know, Dr. Joyce Park is a dermatologist in Seattle, and she was saying there is no one-size-fits-all approach when it comes to washing your skin and hair, and the ideal frequency depends on your skin and hair type and how much you sweat and how dirty you get.
And she also added showering too frequently can definitely dry out your skin and worsening redness, itchiness, and flaking, and also triggering eczema flares. Oh, that's good to know. And is it better to shower in the morning or at night, bub?
Well, that's a very good question. I will admit and I will give you my little routine. And maybe it's good and maybe it's bad. I don't care. It's what I have to do. So I go for a run first thing in the morning. So as soon as I come back, I have a shower. That's shower number one. Then I tend to do my work and then probably go for a swim in the afternoon. And after the swim, I have another shower.
And then maybe later on in the afternoon, maybe I've been for a long walk or I've done something else, then I will think, you know what, I want to change gear. I want to relax. I want to feel better. So I might have shower number three. So that puts me in the, I don't know where I come in the league table of countries there, but I think it's probably slightly more than average, especially for British people. But that is my, that's what I do. Do I need to have all those showers? Absolutely, yes.
For all sorts of different reasons. It's not all about, remember, it's not all about keeping clean. Some of it is to do with health because there is one way of looking at it that people, psychologists and doctors say that actually taking a gold shower is very good for your mental health as well.
So it's not just about keeping clean. There could be other reasons why you might want to take a shower. So as far as I'm concerned, I'm happy to take as many showers as I can. Bob, with all respect, I suppose you might have single-handedly improved the average shower times that Brits take.
spend every day thanks to your contribution. And you know why I don't want to take a shower every day? It's because I want to save the planet. You know, I'm on my moral high horse and I bet it's very difficult to get me down that horse. You're going to take that, yeah? That's where I will rest for the rest of the show. And with that, we are signing off. Thank you so much, Yu Shun and Bob Jones for joining the discussion. I'm He Yang. We will see you next time.