#216 – The "Hardcore Year" Approach to $10k/Month in Revenue with Andrey Azimov of Sheet2Site
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What's up, everybody? This is courtlandt from ni hacker's that com. And you're listening to the andi hacker's podcast. More people than ever are building cool stuff online and making a lot of money in the process.

And on this show, I sit down with these ni hackers to discuss the ideas, the opportunities and the strategies they're taking advantage of so the rest of us can do the same. All right, i'm here with Andras month as I go on. Andry.

are you going really good and i'm excited to be here.

yeah. I think the last time we spoke, we're just same as like a year ago, a year and a half ago and you were running sheet to site and I think you are like ten thousand dollars months in revenue. And then it's been a while. And then I just saw you tweet twitter talking about I was just back on the podcast. I think Peter levels are saying something about that.

I back on mentally rerecorded, you just didn't and then you inform me that like you've sold your company so your stories are cool and because I think of the very start of your story, like you didn't really know how to code, you weren't church you're going to build, you had very little money and you like you'd quit your job and you decided to order of embark on this path to become a successful founder. And you are very deliberate about IT. I read some of like your older posts and you're talking about lake, the lessons that you have learned from Peter levels and from others who have gone you sort of had of you and how you would have incorporate with those into your journey. And I think the very first decision that you made was that you are not just going to start on like one project you didn't have one idea you wanted to work on. You're going to take a whole year and basically work on .

lots of different projects. Yeah because I didn't know what will work out. So I just so spaghetti the wall and see what will speak. And this was a more signal spaetzle like that approach .

because I think no one really knows is going to work out like nobody has an idea like can be a hundred person confident that's going to work and the people were one hundred person confidence that's going to work. And usually just like deleted some way. And so like the throws we get to get a wall approach is awesome.

Computer levels did IT. He did, I think he called a twelve start of twelve months. And he really did, like twelve startups, twelve months every months. He force himself to quit what he was working on to start something new, and by I think, like two thirds the way there, joking like seven, eight month. And he like, he kind of knew that no mad list was like to break out success.

And he started like, you know, working on that the most and your journey, I think the thing that you built that did the best called sheet to site was the very first thing that you built. And then you ended up building a bunch of other stuff like in a high insight, like arguably you could have just stopped there, only worked on that. So you kind of did have the right idea at first. But you like, no way I ve actually .

knowing that yeah, I didn't know. I thought I just after one month I saw it's done and so there is no way to make more than three hundred dollars of IT. So IT was like, like a good signal from me that I need to start something. You, as a rise IT will be too risky OK.

Let's like about like the beginning of how this started. How did you decide to do this? How did you afford to take a year off and do nothing to work, work on your own projects?

Uh, because back then I was living in bali. And bali relatively cheap compared if you live in europe or U. S.

Or some other countries. So I was living like on four hundred box and was A A month yeah yeah. Rent was like two hundred and forth, like hundred fifty. yeah. He was good. Good enough for me that that was the good foundation to be able to sustain myself, at least for like four months or something after I have no plan. So I decided just go fulling and see what happen.

So you have like a few thousand dollars a month and savings then yeah, it's like the exact opposite of me when I started any hackers. So I was like living in savers is goes spending like four thousand dolla month burning through my savings. And like that so much you had total.

And I ve heard of people living in bali for like a couple thousand dollars month, and just like living like kings, but the fact that you could make a living there, four hundred dollars month survive is pretty like, that's prety crazy. And yeah, I read someone of your blog post to you. And like, we talked about that last year, how you were, you know, you didn't.

You couldn't afford like a bike and so you would walk home you and you couldn't afford wifi. So you were working at starbucks and like even after they were closed, you would stand outside starbucks just like use their wifi. So was just like part of your plan like i'm going to live in bali and take a year off some obtuse eusden did you? Just like coincidently happened to be living a bully and then you decided that you're going to take a year off work and try building your own projects.

both because when I was in ukraine and from ukraine, I had a dream. But at some point I should go to thailand or some other warm place where I can celebrate the new year and was my dream. Just don't see snow because the ukraine is very cold in the winter.

Just go and I see the beach and the and the ocean, and like how this is good. So I started a small developers agency, which allow me to travel and work remotely. And I went to thailand, spent six month, six months there.

And after I moved to body and body, I found the job. I was working as a product manager in a elsewhere. So like the product studio, which is um was a really good experience for me because ah I was learning a lot there. Um but on the side that was making some side projects and after one half year, I decided when I wasn't bali, took quit um this job and try something that makes me happy and if I will sustain myself, I can convert my hobby to to the business that would be like the dream life for me right?

And so then you started your hard core year. So with the beginning of this year, now you've got a year hopefully of runway.

And your goal was I think you decided to make a thousand dollars and monthly recurring revenue yeah which basically means that you two and a half times, but you are living off of bodies like that's pretty comfortable life style for you to kind of start and figure out what you want to do from there ah how did you go about coming up with like your ideas because think that's weren't like most people struggle okay, one of me in any hacker but like am I going to work on how do I know an idea is a good idea? You had plenty of ideas. And if you started seven projects before the end, how did you, how did you figure what to work on first?

I didn't know how to code at all, so I decided to build at least my first idea. I build a serve by apps that will show the best time when to serve. I didn't know how to code, and I accidentally limit Peter levels and mark cohl group from beatles.

And I say, just use PHP. So IT was good code in school for me. I launched in one months, and he was good foundation, but how to find ideas was, surprisingly, that when I doing this project, I was, have already some ideas for the next one because of the time I need to commit the code.

So I thought, why there is no big red button when I can just hit and IT will deploy my code. So I told my second project, but they didn't work out. I didn't get enough permanent ments to start the factory in the china.

You trying to actually make like A A literal bread button that you would hit, apply my code physical button.

right?

And you're taking prety payments to try to get people to .

buy this thing before you made .

IT like a start without start.

just the goal. Maybe couple of thousand dollars. And I made only two hundred fifty or something.

Ah, okay, not of that. Yeah so then what do you do to turn the money back and just give up?

And yeah, I just say, sorry, the project didn't work and no O K.

so you are pretty quickly your two projects and to serve APP out of teachers of the code. Uh, I also lean P, H, P as the very sort of web programing language. I guess I learned like hc milanese stuff to make design websites.

And I didn't know how to code. And I was in school and I was just like trying to build, I think, a facebook APP like my sofa year school. And no, was really teaching me how to do this.

Thought I was like getting A C S. degree. And so I just like one online and made a bunch of guides about PHP, which like, at the time I didn't know that, looked down on as a language facebook is using, like, that's good enough.

And like, a super scrappy, and I ended, i've having, like one giant PHP file that was horrible. I didn't follow any of the best practices. But like, I was a good way to learn because I I asn't worry about writing perfect coto s more worried about just like learning how to get stuff working and kind of seems like that's the same path that you took.

yeah. And in fact, you actually read a blog post about, i'm mention early about seven the lessons that you were taking from Peter levels and basically said, solve your own problems. Stop going to sort of events, avoid sort of coaches, learn code by dealing and searching in google, avoid courses, boot camps, books and start of coaches, do the simply saying that could possible work with their current skills and don't waste time on super cool new frameworks that will take you here to learn.

And then finally, do IT all yourself. And so like, right in middle of that is like learn code by tuning and searching on google. Honestly, that's what I tell people who tried to learn how to code to like try to vision what that is you want to do.

I don't just learn code abstractly. You have something you want to accomplish and then like google around and try to figure how to do that thing. And hopefully going to you start some very simple and like it'll be scrappy and crappy at first, but like ultimately we'll gg how to do that thing. And if it's something you ought to do often you'll keep doing IT repeatedly dly kind of memorize and learn. You just get Better over time to keep bad IT.

Yeah absolutely because the learning code is not there. Um deter determination idea is just infinitive idea. As there is no end in learning code, you can never finish. But either started something small like build one abit will work and will have one bottom this much more yeah simple and do able instead of try to learn entire code of entire world is kind of weird .

because it's if you think about someone who is like an expert programmer or training a brand new programming, the experts is not going to teach them all the crappy, like scrappy ways to do things. So I going to probably teach you a again or like, here's the best practices for today in the modern web, helping they're using in the all the bigger companies. And it's like that's way too much for beginner to learn and memorize.

So it's the beginner. It's kind of easier almost teach yourself because then you have permission just to do things kind of in a crappy simple way and you know anyone to come over shoulder or telling you that's crappy, that's wrong, but that's often the easier way to start. And no extra is going to tell you to start that way.

And then like you said, you're never done learning. You can always unlearn those bad habits. And I think to some degree, it's hard to appreciate why the best practices are the best practices unless you've done like the hard crap way first. So I like that scrappy do with yourself path.

Yeah, I would just have depends on of your goal if you go to find the developed job, maybe it's a Better approach to take the some books or training with which teach you how to do IT in the right way because obviously in a job you work not alone. You work in a team.

And they have as they using all these best practices that which probably good idea to to find out and learn, right? But if you do IT just for a fun and for a side projects, I guess it's not much a big deal. Which pass you will choose.

yeah. But I think for learning the code enford like building a company, the biggest obstacle for most people just quitting, right? It's like you start and then I get frustrating.

It's too hard not seeing very much progress and then you end up quitting and then you don't get the job, start the company. And I mean, either situation, if you can just figure out how to make IT easy and fun for yourself, you can get Better over time. And that's clearly what you did.

So I can't imagine by the time that like you finish your surfing APP are your big red depo code button that you were the world's best programming, right? You are probably still super scrappy. You probed, didn't have a tone of confidence of me, but to build a lot of stuff, eventually he, you ended up building sheet to site, which is from the sound of, doesn't sound like a very simple project to start with.

The concept of IT is basically people who don't know how to code can turn their spreads y into a website. And like, here you are someone who barely knew how to code. So what was you was like the genesis of this idea? And like how did you have the confidence .

to try building this? Because before I had the idea to build the website of list of website contains dark mode and I didn't know the S Q L or any other database but I knew the spreading. So before starts in the website that um collected all the data of abroad, I found in the google sheet and the best way to do IT was somehow I didn't know how to put this information into HTML.

So I find the way how to easily call through a pi and in the full loop, IT will make the cards like the Normal same style, which which list the webs and IT work very well for me. I was surprisingly happy with approach that I don't need to update the code. I just update the google sheet and the website will update itself.

And once I had this idea was SHE to decide, I thought maybe some other people also don't know S Q L and don't know how to code. So maybe I can turn out this idea into the service APP. So if firstly, IT was very basic, IT was just wanted played, just put your google sheet, your rail into the web form, and IT will convert into one delayed.

That was IT was no logging, no payments, no about page, was just one page, and A, B, I page was a generated website without anything. So IT was I, I I think think that was maybe even luck for me that I don't know frameworks and database because I know where a little. So I focus only on one thing to to ship and see what would work. So maybe this disadvantage become my advantage.

It's kind like this first step process that a lot of founders go through, which is, number one, work on something can be literally anything. Number two, are you working on that thing? You encounter a problem.

And really, I go shit like, I need to figure out how to solve this problem. Number three, you solve the problem for yourself, okay, this works. And then number four, you have the inside to realize, okay, probably other people have the same problem, and I can solve IT for them.

So go from working on like a project to basically working on a completely different project that solves a real problem that you encountered. And so those four steps, in your case, where number one, work on something, you build this website dark mode list, still online dark mode list to duck ham. And like, what is? What is? This is just a list of apps that have a dark mode ah so people like using an apps that you have a dark mode or black background that come to list.

Very simple project, you know, not crazy ambitious. Number two, you encountered a problem, which I was like R A, well, how do you add all the data of this website? Do you update the data you don't know seek, or you don't know about database, but you do you know how to use a spread sheet? And so you had to figure out that.

Number three, solving that problem for yourself. I'm not sure how you did IT, but you figure out how to get the data from that spread sheet, update your website, which i'm sure like anyone with that persistence, even if you are beginning a code could figure out how to do. It's a very specific problem.

And then number four, you realized, like, hey, other people have this problem too. So tell me about like that last and sake, because I think most people who saw problems don't think that way. Especially programmer, especially beginners.

We tend to think, oh, I built a super simple solution to my own problem. Like no is gonna care. No one you needs this.

I'm a began early. Of course everyone's going to build their own thing. How does you have the inside to realize? Okay, other people also might want to change, uh, object their websites based on data .

and a spread sheet. This was my assumption. I never knew that some other people have this problem. So I just thought, what if some other people also want to build a website from the google SHE? And I just made this APP in a month.

I I think I even posted in my litter or facebook also in india kers, but they didn't went well. And some people say nice, bro, I say nice, very nice and didn't have you know like overnight success where people wow, all my life I was missing clumsy and IT was web building from the google sheet. Now i'm completely happy, andry, good job. No.

that almost never is.

No, no. So I just launched IT, uh, as is after pulling onate a bit, at least make workable with this one and played. And I even didn't have any like extra features which Normal website build there have how long that I take you to .

get like this first version of because i'm looking at IT and it's like super duper crazy simple like you have a twitter thread where you have a screen shot like you're very first basically very first version of IT and it's just like one website, one page and it's a Green and I just says make sight from google sheet yes, that's IT. You put in a link to your google spread sheet and then you click a button and IT turns in to a website so how long did that take you to build?

Um I think this from my first version I built like in a couple of days and IT was very quickly. But this version I didn't launch and also shot for maybe like ten or twenty people to get their on boarding right, because many I understood that what I understood myself and I believe should work where you should click real, people even don't understand. So there was big insight for me, make face to face user to think, sit with people, shut up and listen, whether struggle .

that your website reminds me of, you know, gum road, like a website for basically selling products online, like the very, very first version of that. But bicci cle was also very similar. And keep built in like as a weekend project, I think just took a couple days, and I was the same thing, was a very simple website and you just like upload product and then it's like boom as a Price time IT, and it's like as simple as that.

And so you don't really have to like spend months a week's planning like you didn't even do american research for this idea. You like guy have this problem. I'm going to see how that people have this problem to i'm going to put a bunch of bells and whistles and features on IT like i'm going to have user accounts.

I'm going to have password reset d. I'm going to have a glitzy logo just at the bare minimum and then put IT up and then you started learning from, as you just said, like user feedback. So wasn't so much like all.

And to predict what everybody wants up front to build IT you like, i'm going to put up the simple as third st small lest possible thing and then show to real people and see what kind of feedback they have. And like, of course, you like, you hope that they love IT, but like that is rarely the case that they love the very first version, and that's what you're learning from them. So what did you learn when you actually talk .

to people they don't understand how to make the web sheet public? Because as there is two ways to a get the data from the google hit, first is using identification and get the the permission from the user. But another simple way you just make make the website public and the instruction what was on the website, but then told where you need to click and, uh, how to do IT.

So many people don't understand this instruction, and I tried to improve the optimize that they know how to do IT. IT was probably big inside for me because otherwise, when I launched as this, when I was a version of instruction, in my understanding, code should work. Many people will fail, and was frustrated and confused because he will no idea how to.

Ah this kind of like a trope and software development that like you make your own APP and you take your laptop to a coffee shop and you just look over somebody shoulders, they try to use IT, you don't say anything and like always, you will be shocked at how harder is when they figure out like the most basic stuff in your act that you thought that would be super easy to do.

And it's kind of depressing to watch like i've done this with every APP rebuild, including in the hackers. And like i've never i've never failed to be dissapointed watching bill struggle to use something that I thought was so intuitive. So how did this this turn out? I mean, obviously you didn't. This is like month number one of your heart core year technical words in a couple of project before this but like this, like the first project where you're like a taken off your job and you like living off your savings and he said the only got to like three hundred thousand months in revenue and so IT didn't turn out to be the success that you wanted IT to be. What do you go from there .

are after that, uh, I decided to build a mac APP, which is completely different field with a different language and different approach to everything. But the idea why I took IT, not because I wanna build a make APP in just the make up, because it's cool, because IT was a big fan of, uh, the litter account called the year progress is just A A progress bar in showing each couple of days that your year is growing like three hundred, six, five days is a hundred percent so which three days is moving one and people like so as a wow I like this this um idea and a big fan of IT you know like a moment to marry. It's reminders that our time is limit at and we need to work more and do the stuff that we need to do now. So I thought, why why this no, uh, such thing as this progress bar into mark menu bar because is just minimal, alister, and is very cool. So you can just put in your mark menu bar and they will be perfect for three.

Yeah, look into this twitter. APP right now are the twitter account right now the year undergraduate ss, and like you said, it's just progress bar that a tweet every day of what percentage we are through the year and today, literally four hours over, just tweet over fifty percent of the way through the year is the most popular tweet of all time.

Got forty seven thousand likes already and seventeen thousand tweets because it's kind of shocking that were early to fifty percent through twenty twenty one. But you are progress bar when I step further. So didn't only tell you like what percentage we are through the year, but was also like what percent is we are through the day? What person is where through the month? And then you a cool part, this kind of depressing, which is a progress part of the bottom. It's like what percentage ge of your life are you through and so you can put in your age told you that you're going to die, you know whatever age on average you're thirty four person of the way through your life, which is kind of a remm reminder to look up at your mac progress bar and see that every day. Yeah.

this second version with all other features I launched in the next couple of months because the first I launched the only the year because this was the idea and I spent all the time figure out how to do the progress bar and coding on swift. But after I got a lot of feedback from the user, so I made maybe, like I know, three hundred sales of five box APP goy. Yeah, and IT was my biggest success. I made so much money in one day that I never made in my life back then.

So yeah, three hundred sales of five by bux eats is fitten hundred dollars. Yeah, which is almost four months of runny for you living in bali, of four hundred dollars in on solid every time you're making one of these apps and charging money for IT like you can, you can like meaningfully extend the runway that you had to continue your hard core year. yes.

The other interesting part was that um you should make the animation moving on the progress by right each couple of percent and I have no idea how to do IT on swift. I even don't know how to do IT now. So I make you know how to go approach.

I make fifty different progress bar moving of yeah like the picture images yes, and put in the eve like if three percent show this and IT still working. Just imagine after three years, people still buying IT, even in the apple store, yes. So I thought, wow, people even don't care if my code even not entirely optimized. It's like the vorce gold in the world yeah that's .

a kind of consistent pattern, right? Like users are binding your rap because of how you coated IT. They don't care if you've got like and authenticity ally moving bar. If you just switch between one and fifty pictures, like IT just looks the same to them.

And so IT works and like that's kind of the the other thing I like about this idea of doing like a different project every month or two is that when you give yourself this time limit and you kind of cap how long you can work on each project, you don't have time to waste doing trivial and important things. Like you have to figure out how to be scrappy if you can. Like, i've got one APP and will be done when it's done.

Now I do the best that possible. Can you have no time with me then? Like probably would have taken like all the time in the world had to figure out how to move the progress bar just right and learn the proper swift code.

And like what would would have have done for you, like probably nothing know you have earned to watch of extra stuff. That's that in the way of you actually accomplishing your goal rather than doing like the bare minimum that you needed to accomplish, all which was to actually make money. And so this apples making money in, like what what's wrong with that? Did you try putting a little.

but I assumed and switch to another because I saw, well, this is like the, uh, my cow or how you call this in english, right? Where you find the idea and you .

just do the money tree. Yeah, yeah. I never money.

No money. Shake the money tree. Yes, yeah. Those things are working. It's making five bux everybody who buys IT, but yes, not giving you suggestion revenue. And so what's the next thing you do that, that does give you some of revenue?

And my plan was maybe I will be the mark menu bar guy you know, the guy who focus deeply on the mark menu burbs and will be, this might think so. I will focus on IT, and later I will figure out how to make subscription. But now I just need to switch to another idea and not lose to keep building stuff and launching IT.

And maybe other people also buy. So my project number three was the mark APP could make or six great again. So the idea was to fix the annoying things in mus, which many people dislike. For example, you cannot change the screen shot folder or the format, or you cannot hide all your screen shots and staff on the desk. And when when you connect your phone to the itunes IT always open the itunes.

So IT was very many to many people. So I like knowing thing about maco just like, okay.

going fix yeah I I I think now many menu of of that was already fixed. But the most annoying thing was every day this pop up came as out, do you want to update your new macos version and you press tomorrow every single day? So I just found the wake up to fix IT and this was like the first number one, three shares that many people like and even subscribed before I was even made.

Yeah, i'm looking to this now. Make O S S grade again. That com. It's still up. And in the cost ten dollars also have a video people who can watch, and you get some screen shots, and they all the updos on the home page. How much money did you know that making from this one?

嗯， maybe like one thousand, five hundred or two thousand? Not much. yeah. But again.

enough to justify the investment because I probably didn't take you that's like about four, five months of runway. Again, bali didn't take you four.

five months to build IT. Yeah, that was like two months. I think that was pretty hard to deal. Always with swift internal procedure, have to change the permission of disabled softer rb dates, but the right find the way right IT was good and rest for my, for my site. So what your process .

like for like launching and publicizing these apps s because I think a lot of people, even if they have ideas, is kind of step one and have the ideas step to like you be scrapped and build IT don't anything get your way and step is like you got actually like market this thing and get IT in the hands of customers. And you seem to be consistently pretty good at every one of these projects getting in front of people who potentially need IT and getting to give you money. So what is your process like for actually getting these apps into the hands of your customers?

Um uh because on the end of each project, I rode a blog post and abroad. So when I launch you to sign, I know the story about SHE to sign lunch. And in the end of the story, I make a quick note, a, hey, my next APP will be this, if you're interesting, please subscribe.

And after I tweet IT, hey, my next project will be this up, just one screen shot without even APP. And if you like, please subscribe. And after I build the project, put IT everywhere I can on product hunt, on twitter and india uk's on to my email list to hug your news launch everywhere where I can and got the user feedback, see if that will work and if people extra like and and buying IT.

So was, uh, through each of this project I built little bit audience through twitter and made in this. And I was, uh, good for me because I was like that snowball. Each next project, I have bigger and bigger people interested in this particle project in in my chAllenge as well.

So these are basically funding everybody to the same, mAiling less no matter what blog post ly read. Yeah, cool on super smart. And what would you say in your blog post? Like you launched shit to say, what is your blog post like, know who's a target of that and what does he say?

Uh, I did IT after launch shock, actually, post launch lessons learn. So IT was the story, the numbers. Uh, which was hard to do.

How is how I done IT? How was the launch goes very launched IT. What what was the revenue and what I will work next? And this approach was pretty sustainable. And I do IT almost for every APP the day makes a .

lot of sense. So you're basically targeting like other makers and other ni hackers for giving them like to behind the scenes sort of build in public approach. Here's how, here's what I did and here's the results and here's how I did IT.

And anyone else is a maker is gonna interested in that. And then at the same time, the apps that you're building or apps that kind of appeal to that target audience, so like you to say, helps you build a website using a spread chy. This probably a ton of andy hackers who would love to people build a website using a spreadsheet or even like progress bar oex.

Okay, maybe that's not targeted any particular edition particular. But like few a mac, your prop fear and any hack, you probably use a mac and it's kind of a cool net after like anyone could use. And so nothing you're building is target at a different nitch than the ones that you're ready for by telling them about you you're building all this stuff .

yeah was pretty much for the same people, I suppose in .

yeah I just pulled up. You've got post called hard core year first month getting press coverage in reaching three hundred and sixty one dollars a month and revenue. So if anyone searches for that, you could find IT on medium, get two thousand four hundred likes for the sun meeting, which is a ton.

And you've got a bit of different sections, first like the too longer resection, just the summary of the whole post. Then you read like rock down the story of sheet site. So you give people kind of a walk through story of how you built in and how you test IT with users.

And then you have a section called depression. We said, after that, I was ready. I made a launch and feel like everybody would be using IT.

That's now what happened. People only said, oh, this is a nice idea and that hurt. And you now know this is a standard depression stage and any creative process. So do you feel like you had that point with all of your projects that was only shit to site? Where do you felt kind of depressed at the way the launch was received?

No for all it's it's like the the classic problem. I even knows that I have this problem I in the right direction because next will be good feeling after after the launch. So this first, when you don't know, you probably struggle with this, but after you keep this as is a part of the game, you know when you need to defeat boss first, you need to struggle a lot to get the to the boss so the the the part, the game and at some point you you like this pain of of the depression.

It's another like going just like you're gone through like all these like sort of learnings and they are all really, I think, testament to why doing like a different project, every mother, he was a smart idea. If you only build one project, yeah you can pour a more if you're like heart and soil and attention and love into that project, but like not getting that many reps in. And so you don't really know like what is unique to this one project and what is the common experience across. I was every project that you work up words with you like, okay, you had your serf APP and then you had your big red button APP and you had SHE to say, and then you had these progress bar apps and you're getting like these represent and you can see like, oh like consistently, it's kind of depressing and hard in the beginning and then that almost always goes away after being launch and fixed bugs and set of whatever. So like now, you know, it's going to baked into your soul that like you shouldn't quit when you feel that feeling where if somebody is only ever made like one project or two projects is like h this is not how it's supposed to be and there here, anybody also writing about this that I should quit like .

i'm not supposed to feel this bad yeah, I would just said that it's work for me in my case. But I assume that many people have different personalities, and for them is Better to work on the one idea where they can focus and work like a year or two even before lunch. So it's really depends on who you are and what was here. You know, in the triggers and in the things that makes you happy.

what do you think that is about your personality that makes this sort of multiple project approach a Better approach for you, rather than just like .

working on one thing? For me personally, IT s much more Better to work on different as. And I really like this part when you don't know anything, and after you have this idea and you launch with and see what happened, this makes me much more excited.

And maybe because when I was a child, I cannot focus on on the one thing I do, this and that and kind of finish books and cannot focus too much. So you know, like learning and study, I just need to many things in the same time. And so maybe one I will finish or maybe no have a chance.

It's kind like the consistent personality some other parts of your life will probably also apply to your journey as start of found her. So if you really you know not finishing books, like you said, maybe you need to finish much of projects you should work on like a lot of different small things rather than one really big thing that you'll never finish.

I've also heard people who are extroverts tend to work Better with cofounder ers because it's kind of hard to motivate yourself with super exhibited. And they're sitting now on your apartment by yourself all day. For introverted you maybe you can do the solo founder thing. And so there's all these like little personal I trades if you're not really sure where to start a founder in which which decision to make, realizing that like as you said, there is no one right decision you said to figure out what works for you and you can probably guess what approach to work for you based on how else you've lived your life before you became a founder.

Where there anything that like, if you have any bad habits that you had to break or overcome to, like, finally find success because I know I did for sure, like if I just follow my own sort of integration and do what I want to do, like I would lock myself in a room and right code all day, every day, and never released anything, never market and never taught to anybody. Like that's what's the most fun for me. And so I had to kind of like deliberately work on ideas that don't require a lot of code in order for me to have the discipline to do all the other stuff is you have any habits that you needed to break or be able to just kind of naturally be yourself. And that worked for you.

But I think it's not only habits is my many thing is habits to finish the project, the the habit that you need to launch market the project. Uh, the fear that you scared, that no one will even use IT, the fears that people will hate you, the and anxious is h think that maybe someone will copy a project. It's like the map psychology. Gc, emotional mess in all was this journey. And if not my friends, I will probably give up to to earlier, I was just very likely to have a very good friends, Peter, mark, Daniel and linux from brazil and other guys who help me during all these years to keep going and not give up, because without people, my personal fuel was only for like a couple of months.

So how did you how did you make friends on the internet who believed in you and supported you and stop you from giving up? Because it's easier said than done. Most first ort of toiling, nobody knows they're working on. Even when they create twitter count, they tweet something about they're working on like nobody response. How did you go from like not having any internet friends to suddenly having, like all these people in your corner?

I was lucky when I went to bali, so the first day I don't know anybody. I post in some facebook group. Hello, people of body.

I like experts. I'm under from ukraine. I like startups and jumping from parachute and may be surfing and stuff like this.

Let's meet on cocoa and some people, hey, angry, okay, let's meet. And they build made couple of friends like this. And everyone said to me, you know, go to the work in space called dodge's body.

There is many people like you go there and say, what what is a work in space is a place where not just buy coffee, but I pay money for time. Just imagine pay my IT was like mind blowing in my head. Why need pay if I can go to the IT was like, doesn't make sense, but is okay let's because not the only one guy said, but also some other people said.

So I went there and met many interesting people. Actually, one of them was my eggs. Boss, the yar's laugh from elsewhere and I found the job. So wow, on the second I found the job.

Okay, what happened? And then the next couple months, some girl said that, you know, bitter levels will come to body like, wow, no way was like, was a super star guy from some different part of the world that riding crazy blog post. I, okay, I will go.

And I went to the poll party, where was a Peter and some other guys, and was very interesting experience because I don't drink alcohol. So I get the tea set with a chinese t one's all these little cups and people in the poll drinking beer and like parking and with this little little hello, i'm under from ukraine and that's how meet Peter actually. And was pretty strange by the next day we met in a Normal environment and somehow we become friends, and he introduced me to the mark hole brook from the batley. So that's how IT was more to face, because right through the internet, the only connection was when I post on a facebook group to some random dudes, take hello, I under from the rain, let's meet for a .

coconut that's cool. It's super cool. It's bringing back memories of propane mic times and meeting people, meet up and all source of stuff like that, which hopefully i'll start back.

But I one of the things i've seen from people like you and others like the sort of andy hack's community who've like been able to make a lot of friends is that you all like. You're all like doors. You like you're not just like, hey, let me go to the pool party.

You like, hey, like i'm actually working on on stuff. Do you do you want to see what to work? Let me show you what to work on.

And I think for somebody like mark or Peter, when they meet somebody like you who they don't know, and you can actually show them what your building and they come back a few weeks later. Big look out for long. I am now. It's just stick so much more then if you're not actually building anything because it's it's like a come rotterdaam because there are also buildings stuff all the time and they love to see people kind of inspired by what they do and see people just changing .

grow yeah for sure. But then I even have not work or anything. I even don't have plants like b plants I said, when we met, you know, I wanna be start up, maybe IT will be about surfing and mark said, so what's stop in you?

So I don't know, I don't know how to code. What should I do? Be the P, H, P, just P, H, P. I say, okay.

so you went up going through your heart court year. I've got like a little time lineup as you wrote about like march started march twenty eighteen. I seem you quit your job with your go to get to a thousand thousand month of current revenue.

By november twenty eighteen, you had built seven projects and then in january you ended up winning polton's maker of the year. You are the third person to come on the show who's won protetch maker of the year award, which I guess they are awarded to basically whoever is the most impressive maker, the most impressive builder. And it's almost always like the most prolific person.

So mubby share ic balls been on the podcast a few times and he is like super prolific. He's like building an APP every week as where to god Peter levels has been on the he also did his like start up beer and he built twelve projects and twelve months. And then here you were kind of alongside these other grades, being recognize a part hands maker of the year as someone who listed a year earlier, like, didn't even know, had a code.

No, god, this was one of the happiest moment in my life because I have no idea if I even would be nominated. I just launched the project. Every of my project will launch to the on the protocol.

And I was like, is that mean many people love what they done and they vote? So I suppose they have some algorithms check in for entire year who's the maker launched total project with a total amount, the walls or something like this. But after they had like, preliminary people, and after that there is another world.

So I was very surprising like that I went to this first round, and after I won, and do us, wow, how is even possible? The guide from body from ukraine build some apps that have little bit functionality and win, win. Such great the words I was, I was really happy. I was party and went to the beach party and screaming and yelling and parking with my friends was really fun. That's awesome.

It's cool. They have like all these sources of motivation because it's not just like individuals that you're meeting in person now. It's like an entire online community like celebrating you.

And I I got to say like this process that you have like not only blogging at the end of sort of each one of your projects, but also constantly to eating by literal to you, like you ve been building in public since well before I was cool. You're always eaten your website down. You're always like sharing your revenue numbers and how things went.

I think there's just something about that is endearing. The people who don't know you are people who are trying to follow in your footsteps to build something somewhere to what you're building. So when the time comes for you to get like like nominated for an a word like this, like who's going to be at the top of their mind? Andray, of course, because andrey been tweet you talking about all the stuff has been building all year long.

So like why wouldn't somebody remember you kind of a constant remind during the twitter fee that like you're grinding and working, you're pursuing the school. And I think that's just it's really inspiring. It's a great habit for you to develop. So at some point, you're done seven projects priday, eight or nine, ten projects actually, and you decided to go back to sheet to site, which is a big decision because you have all these projects like clearly, some of them were still alive with still alive today. How did you decide, instead of working on newer projects, or instead of picking a different old project, to go back to you, to go back and we launch sheet site, the very first project that you work on.

I guess, was the three, three reason for for this decision. First, that my idea is, was finished, and I haven't got any other idea cyd reason that my goal was in a recurrent revenue. So SHE two sides was with only one project with record revenue.

And IT was like five box per months or something. You then, but IT was still working and some people still pain. And the last reasons that IT was still life and people was using IT to build some websites even with this reversion that that they had before. I I thought that maybe was was a good idea to try at all this feature that all people asked because back then, I even don't have the option to connect the custom domain because it's obviously number one teacher of any website .

building right? We build website the .

company yeah so the first I just sent through email when the people buying IT on the paper, I said, hey, actually just have this index gmail with I frame and just put on yourself ver good.

So for the non programmers, I mean, you get people really, really hockey way yeah to show the websites on their own domain name rather than like you SHE to site comes coronal or whatever website you gave people.

Right programme would say, do things that don't scale.

This is a really important point actually, because somebody was posting in ni hackers a few weeks ago about how he was coating his website for like a year, and then he realized, like, he was doing all these features that he sees and other apps that you like don't need to lunch with. He was like, the password reset feature is an automated jet. I going to spend like three, four weeks like fixing that and like everyone else no, no, no.

You like you don't have to do. You can just not do that. And yeah maybe like one out of every two or three hundred users will need, we set their password. You can like do that for the manually until you have time to build that feature, but like just get the most basic features out.

And like you are kind of like intuit vely on that level, like you left double, not only like you, those sort of educate features will also like the most important feature, custom domains. And yet the site was still alive. People were still using IT. They didn't necessarily care. They had some resort solutions, grabby eye am solution, to get that feature right.

IT was very interesting approach to do because I even don't know how to do so. I decided just launch, see what will happen. And if people really need this custom, and because that was my assumption, maybe people just like to use IT on the on the mind.

Main is IT. But IT was good validation as people need this feature. By the way, I still now don't have set passport features, so maybe I don't care about this too much.

IT took me a long time to put request pass of reset features on N D actions to you, like changing your using name on I D actors like multiple years. And the act has been acquired. I've been working out for years and people would send the emails and how do I change my using name and like i'll do that for you and IT wasn't to like maybe six years, seven months that I D IT so really don't need .

these basic features to yeah maybe it's a good idea for a said this work is a service, right?

So you decided go back to IT work on this because of all the reasons you outlines, like this thing is still alive people, all these features that they want, i'm sure the feature request and piling up for months at this point and is got recurring revenue. How long did they take you sort of to build this and to the new version and get IT outdoor.

I think maybe like three or four months, IT was pretty big list because from that scraping website, I need to make in some, you know, like the real start up with many features of people, ask many technical problems. And I need to level up myself as a developer to be able to ship all this requested feature, right?

right? And they ended up to in super. Well, you can't launched that is SHE to say two point now.

And you had a lot more of the features that like people would expect from a typical website builder. You had a bunch of different temple's people who use to make their websites differently. You end up adding custom domains.

Yeah, IT was still semi automated. At least I didn't send the I frame anymore. And this is manly, like each time when people ask the message me in the websites.

So I sent them the I P address to change D N. S. And I put on FTP their website. So IT was steal, but IT was, you know, two point of, like a little bit more automation.

yeah. How did people receive the the new lunch and how did that go for you financially?

And IT probably the the biggest success back then. IT was even great because was a big poll party, organize with friends with Peter and mark and Daniel and linson was the big willa and body, and maybe two hundred people again. So we took the microphone and said, we watching sheet to side and somewhat, what is this? This is my website of three, two.

IT was already launched, but just for show cross and we press the button and IT was went life to the I increase the Price. So from maybe hundreds of mr. IT becomes like four hundred or five.

Think that was like march. And then by me, so a couple months later you were at the go, you finally hit one thousand dollars a month of recurring revenue and this is all twenty twenty. And then I talk you last year and twenty, twenty and you're ten times out about you're ten thousand dollars month and revenue, which is a crazy monkey ten x in one year.

I'm sure that was like well beyond your wireless streams. What you're going to hit, I mean, literally ten times more than your goal and you're living in bali, still are traveling, I think at this point. So you like, this is way more money than you need to survive.

IT was pretty amazing because you know when when you set up a public goal, you need actually to finish this goal. And people asking, what's up on ray, why you don't post any update and you would like three monthly revenue is easy to post when you achieve something, but it's very hard. And I have huge respect for people who post and keep posting this even if they don't succeed yet.

But I keep working on IT and adding finally at the domains, at the stripe and integration, launching the google SHE did on and were pressed on, and many other things that people request IT. And in two thousand twenty, the go IT happen. And I assume that many people decided, okay, have this idea, and I will work on IT because I have free time so they somehow remember my website because the idea was related to the google sheet and they opened my website and started playing the monthly subscription.

Yeah, that was a pretty good time for tech business and general for the exact reason that you said, like so many people decided to stay at home, it's kind like that phenomenon in january is a new year. Suddenly everybody's at the gym because everybodys got like this in a new resolution to get fit. So what happened? And everyone's like, well, I might as well build my online business.

And so if you are making any sort of tool, whether it's SHE to see how people with websites or where they strike, tell people experiments online, like twenty twenty was a huge year for you most likely. And it's kind of just like right place, right time. And then as you said, the very beginning of the show at some point you like, well, the support look is pretty big and it's going to encourage as they get more, more customers.

Why self SHE decide? I mean, I understand like like it's so it's not that fun to do customer support but like it's a solvable problem you can hire people for. You can sort automating different stuff and writing guides and fixing bugs. Um why not just keep working on this thing and take you to twenty thousand and revenue or forty thousand dom of the revenue instead of you know selling IT and starting .

something new because when when a lot of support happened, I didn't decide to sell, I decided to keep working on IT and automate every everything what again, it's like the good marker if people posting you in support and don't know how to do or they want to do something that they cannot do through their own account. IT was like a good signal.

So I done a lot of these from in two thousand twenty like a year and it's become pretty good and uh, stable project. So last six months, I don't have much supported before because I was optimized and automated and at some point, because I got request for other people who want to buy IT. So let's if someone interested to buy, let's just see if I will post IT.

Not some people who message me directly, but for all people on the market. I got the offer from the guide from U. K. Named neil. So I want, you know, have this feeling of fresh ideas, fresh projects.

cool. This is very freeing. I think the order of diva's ourself in my big project have been working on like i've been work on any hack for years.

I know any plans to stop, but like i'm going to sell the exact same code based like what's new, what's going on. I've all these other ideas, they're been perceived in the back of my mind. So part of me is kind of jealous is to see what you're going to work on. Do you have any idea is like what is kind of make your future now that you've sold this project? I assume you've made IT a big chunk of change and you know really have to work in anything for a while, but I know you're going to what thing is going to be?

I have no idea yet, just didn't open my idea list for a while and just enjoy, do nothing at the moment. You know, some people said that you need to always work on something, and you, you, if you will have a lot of money, you will probably start doing something you again. But I wanted reach this point when I will become totally boring of lazy to do, do and him. And after this, I will lodge something you, for sure.

what are you doing in your your lazy off time? Because I seem you not projects, but you have to doing something in the personal life.

What's kept you occupy day, day. A couple of things. First, I making techno, like, made an electronic music just for fun.

Yeah.

I put that on the powers because I was working a lot on on my projects. But knowledge is doing this. Another other stuff I learn in coding now in a proper way.

Finally, to understand how to do data basis and passport assets. So IT IT will help for my next project. Finally.

nice. There's kind of this idea and silicon value like the deferred life plan, where a lot of founders spent like ten years working on projects and startups, and they're to put a lot of their dreams and like personal hobby and like personal development on hold because it's like so intense and it's so easier to justify dumping every waking hour you have and you start up, especially it's not working and then like eventually they find success.

And like, okay, well, now it's time to like, you know do all the things that I want us to do. I want to start making music. I learn to go properly.

Finally, go get a girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever. That's cool. You can mix the too.

But IT also is cool when you do reach the end of that, that sort of journey. And you can basically learn all those thinks you want to learn. So best luck. Open makes me really good techno.

You got to send me some, what is your advice? I was sort of an episode by asking for just one piece of advice that you have for, kind of like the person who was in your shoes four years ago, who doesn't essaying know how to code, doesn't what they should build. And this is china, find my inseparable by the sea to this podcast. What do you think this should take away from .

your story under try to surround myself with a friends doing the the same as you, but already succeed in anyways and we would probably help a lot because personally i'm not super like crazy motivation where I can work alone for twenty years in the basement, I need some friends around means that will support and say, you can do IT man. So that's one thing that and another thing that, there is big problem. Now there is too much different content.

There is indie hackers, hacker news, product hunt, the range first companies, everyone succeeding. And you see this like instagram stories of success every ten seconds. So it's very hard to decide what to do. The best approach is just not focus on much on reading and learning, just starts simple one bottom APP, whatever your D. S, and will be much more Better than watching some other people's successes try to build the.

I like that, a device. And in some ways that almost seems contradictory. On one hand, it's like surround yourself with successful people. On the other hand, it's like don't buy too much into these stories. Successful people just get IT done.

But I think both pieces of advice are really good, and you gotta have to figure out, look how to strike that baLance, because they definitely is paralyzing to see all these success stories and then to start copying them too much. I think that's one of the things that you did really well. Was that like you didn't get too caught up and trying to make your apps look like they are these finished polished things.

You just as we have mentioned several times now to scrappy, realized at the very beginning of any sort of life, it's gonna crappy, scraping IT doesn't matter. And it's really easy to lose side of that if you are only sort of consuming these stories and only looking at successful people. But I think what's cool about actually surrounding yourself with like people in real life is old.

I'll just give you the scrappy advice because they know they're story and when they your friends in real life and not going to give you like the sort of button up you know package version of this story where IT was all success the whole time, they're to tell you like just go on PHD a scrappy from the banning. And so I love the way that you are able sort of find that baLance by by having these friends in real life. right? Thanks so much for coming on the show. Can you tell listeners where they can go to learn about, I guess, your next project when ever you try to work on IT or maybe getting that mAiling less that you have?

Yeah you can find me on twitter and asm of or on my personal .

website and a ym of dot com.