#219 – How to Make Your Business Model a Win-Win-Win - with Dan Shipper and Nathan Baschez of Every
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What's up, everybody? This is courtland from india hacker's 点 com， and you're listening to the ni hacker's podcast. More people than ever are building a cool stuff online and making a lot of money in the process.

And on this show, I sit down with these ni hackers to discuss the ideas, the opportunities and the strategies they're taking advantage of so the rest of us can do the same. right? I'm here with Nathan matias. And the and cheaper the founders of ever has a good guys.

good.

thanks. Very good. yeah.

How do you be here? So every is a very interesting business. I want let you guys describe IT. I don't want to butch IT, but I don't find I don't see a lot of publications like every on the internet every day. So what is everything .

and what you get started yeah um every is a bundle of business focus, news letters. So the ideas we want to write about every topic business, eventually we want to write about every industry, every job or every broad subject area um every company in a bundle where readers can pay one Price and they get access to everything that we make. And there is a couple differences between what we do and what other kinds of media companies do.

One is we focus on analysis and commentary. So we're not doing news. We're not doing scopes.

Um we're really many pieces that make you think about the world differently. Two is we write from a practitioners perspective. So we want to write about business. We want to write for people who are in their business lives can .

help make them Better. Yeah like utility is kind of a key thing that we focus on. Uh.

the last thing is we're just structured all a bit differently, our structured as a write collective. So what that means is where somewhere between uh for our writers writing a uh writing for something your time and h writing a sub stack where on the kind of media company side of things um or writing for media company side things, we provide writers with money like a front to help them concentrate on on their business. We provide distribution.

So a big thing that we do is we a platform or matching readers to writers and we were driving readers to writers. So you're not just kind of on your own, we provide a trusted brand, we editors um to help you make you the best work possible. So we provide a lot of the stuff that a media company would.

Um and then on the other side of things, um we provide upside. So we we measure for writers how many readers, how many subscribers they have, and we pay them a percentage of their subscription revenue. And then we also give them their list if they leave. So if for what a reason IT doesn't work out, you get a listed, your nails, so you can can take your audience where you want to go, not not just trying to like lucky when um to keep batting for us even if it's not the deal isn't working anymore a lot.

You guys you're doing pretty much everything. I mean, even one of the things you just talk about IT will be very hard to do like oh, we're just connecting readers, writers like that as a full business and enough itself. That's like one of ten things that you're doing.

Are you transparent at all with like how it's going? Like how many readers you have a subsidies, you have a revenue? Like how can we get a of how the screen experiments .

working out now we're totally opake zero data here. Now it's interesting because like um we feel like it's going pretty well. It's definitely um so I I think then what are the last like publicly shared numbers .

that so where I like twenty four hundred subscribers in about thirty five thousand thirty six thousand three ribs, and we have I think thirteen news letters now and we work with about twenty writers. Some of them are leads so there are the people that run the news letters and some of them are like just, uh, help here and there with production or writing smaller like best for articles or or different contractors are cool.

Four hundred eight describes that's quite a lot. That's what is your business. I think you charge like a couple hundred boxing .

year yeah which is kind of like highly encouraged. And then options, it's twenty dollars a month if you like really wanted that you get the year and you can get a two week free trial. So ah I went to .

your pricing page and it's like it's hard to find the monthly option like you do really good job driving people to leave the early option, which makes sense because that's like way more revenue in your pocket of front. That's money you can use to go hide writers or go you know grow you website or whatever you want to spend .

your money on yeah and like actually the really key thing about IT that that we learned from our investor, eric stronger g from bedrock, is that IT gives us a year to get Better versus the month because basically, every time you get the credit card statement, you're like, is this worth IT? And so we can only improve so much months over month. But in a year, I mean, hopefully are going to be dramatically different a year from now.

And so IT just gives us more time basically. But also, it's funny because like that design of that subscribe page was partially a product of just really trying to get IT out the door pretty quickly. And so we don't want to be like to obnoxious about like hiding the middle in IT was more like, you know, we should add that back in kind of because at first working are not having in IT was like what's the fastest way to add IT? But yeah, we should probably we don't want to have any .

like you know dark patterns. I like I don't think it's a dark patter. I mean up decide you want to charge for your business and its up to customers want to pay that or not. And if what you want to do is emphasized the early plan, that's completely the program and probably IT makes a lot of business sense to do so. Why not so on to talk about the um is the flip side of your precious model which is like where this money is is going um you know obi ly coming in from readers who like you're writing but your structure is a writing collective, I believe you said which means that it's not like you know you're sort of typical media company owned by you guys and the writer just get like a salary. How does that work?

Yeah so basically what happens is when a reader signs up, uh, we asked them in a survey, uh like on the sign up flow hey like what publication did you primarily subscribe for and then we basically attribute that readers revenue, that readers monthly submission tion fee to that writer.

Um and at the end of the month, what we do is we just basically calculate which publications have which readers attributed to them and then we we have some revenue sport with that publication where usually it's about fifty percent that we try to standardize, always around to the percent with with writers um and for any reader that we have attributed to them for that month, we pay them their percentage of the revenue. So what some of the writer ers that we work with, we have kind of like monthly minimums where um before you've built a big enough audience to like get subscription revenue, um we just pay you to essentially to like write your articles. And so if the description revenue in any particular month is greater than your month minimum, you make the substitution revenue. If it's lower than your monthly minimum, you make the minimum. Um so you have something coming in the door and you're not just like kind of writing into the void for many, many years without getting any any money for IT.

This is a fascinating business model and obsess with this because I think media on the internet has been changing quite a lot. We've seen like the rise of the creative economy the last couple years, and we've seen, I don't know, like all sorts of like up and downs of like traditional sort of news media as well, like the death of newspapers and the rise of like online news and the new at times like figurine out a subscription model and substantive ing along and basically peeling up of one of journalists. And it's which interesting to me about IT is like I have no idea where things are going.

You know like IT doesn't seem like there's any obvious like path that were headed down or like this is the one right way to do things and it's gna went out. But I think your model has that potential because it's extremely, absurdly, ridiculously writer friendly. And I think ultimately, if like you're going to be friendly anyone you want to be friendly to the people who are creating the content that kind of like the hard side of the marketplace to get started. So how do you guys look at like yourself with this broader ecosystem of people reading online? Like do you think your model is the future?

I hope so. Um it's really too it's too really to tell, but I do think it's really I think it's really appealing because like I was the first employee sub stack and I think sub stack is amazing for people who are either you know have a huge audience already or you know maybe they're just really determined and they are they're willing to really take a big risk on themselves and just really focus or maybe you've just got a lot of money in time and you know so you've got a long runway or something.

There are some cases, but it's generally it's a very unforgiving kind of like experience curve, where it's a very steep in the early part of the curve. And traditionally, the way that if you look at most great writing in history and analysis or content, what everyone to say it's like that's not the the way it's been produced is not you start out, as you know, twenty something, maybe graduate from college and then you're just writing on the internet like you probably have like mentors you had like you know a community that you came up in. Um you you you were able to learn your craft and then maybe redefine the craft, you know if you like really become a master and um it's really hard for that to happen, just like on sort of like called hard and personal internet platforms.

And so we wanted to carve out a zone where there's a lot more support. And so I mean, the number one most obvious thing is just in terms of like money and but also in terms of driving audience. But I think there's this other thing that is really easy to underestimate but I think is really important I can testify for personally has been critically important, which is um having a group of people and like was specifically really like an editor that's just going to be your first best group of readers and that you're writing sort of um not sort of for like just the numbers because it's really easy to very quickly get demoralize um a lot of writing that we ve worked with the said, hey, like you know this is like one of my best pieces and I honestly would have proudly ly killed that but you encourage me to do like keep writing IT and that kind of thing.

Is, I think not to be underestimated. But you know as like my NBA brain is like how do you quantify that? Or you know it's very appealing to just be like all the sovereign aor totally stand alone, totally independent.

But it's like not I mean, you're dependent upon stripe, you're dependent upon twitter. You're dependent on like whatever substance or goes to review, like there's always dependency is and the question is what dependencies you want to choose and like do they care about you? Like are they invested in you? Like literally. And so we want to be a little bit more of a traditional thing while still offered. And so yes, right to should get a Better deal. Writer should get well, thy much faster than than they do if you're like on, you know, whatever you live in brooklin and you make fifty k and you write really amazing stuff, but all of the website goes to the company you work for because maybe the business models really hard and they can pay that upside out. So anyway, there's a lot there's a lot to IT, but that to me is what's exciting about IT.

Like just personally, is that realistic though? Because I think you with any sort of platform full of creators, whether or something like spotify, we've got lot of artists or or something like your publication every year, we've got lot of writers. There are usually people who are just the heavy hitters you like eighty ninety percent of the traffic.

And the readers are going to look at a small number of people who, just for whatever reason, they just have more reach. They write Better stuff to make Better music. And it's hard for everybody else is sort of, I think, make a living that's comfortable and reasonable when things are so inaccurate? Or do you think about that's that's a great .

question. I think um we we certainly see A A distribution in terms of the right to you are quit in terms of like people who are making money, making money. But our theory of that is maybe specifically, in our case, the the distribution might be a little bit less rescued than you might think or at least the bottom of the curve of the middle is like the the standard is like a little higher.

What you could actually end up making is a lot of higher because we're building um niche subscription newsletters for business topics. So even if you have like you know a thousand uh a thousand subscribe or five hundred describers, um like paying describes in a particular ish like usually for any kind of business topic. That's fairly achievable and that is a good living and that's profitable for us.

And so we we probably expect that you know some other writers will will be really like a lot bigger than others, but that the ones that are doing even averaging well um are going to make enough to to make a living. And I won IT won't be this like um you you have like three hundred million license verses like ten it's more like I know a bentsen has like three million describe so maybe the top end of people that we work with like that that's the achievable outcome. Um I don't even know that's really number, but I got assume it's around there. Um but for in the bottom and or or even the average ant like having a thousand or five thousand subscribers, which if you are a good writer writing about business topics over a significant period of time, you can get there. It's achieve, we think, IT all of the dynamic essentially the same for this kind of a business business writing up business topics.

I also think there is a little bit a false conomo between being really nura investing new and being a his driven business. If you think about like H B O, H B O O S famous for having people come to them that are new and create amazing stuff that that like never could have existed before, both in terms of the acting talent, it's not like like if you compare like you sort of like a Warner brother's film average top gross film in the year to like the top thing and HBO HBO actors.

There's gonna have some famous people, but there's a lot that our new tube and that is part of what makes you so compelling is every everybody likes discovering fresh talent. You know you know both in terms of writers, directors, there's a healthy baLance, I think there that's really important to keep striking also like I mean, totally different world, but that one i've gone very into lately, formula one. So like the top two teams are red bull in recites.

And this also happening with the top two teams in terms of their investment in new drivers. So they have this incredible pipeline in Young talent. And like right now, the top formula rer max per is like also one of the Youngest ever. And there's the sort of like direct thing of investing in in newton le and achieving the sort of like top level results. So um yeah, we want to be both nurturing and have really huge hits and also haven't be this huge pressure if you want to serve like a pretty nish audience and keep tight and like now everything doesn't have to be like you know the the biggest thing ever as long as it's nice thing you know yeah are somebody .

questions I can ask you is about all this stuff because like finding writers and know itself is very difficult I think in your particular niche, like business.

Most of the people who have the expertise are also like Operators who are running businesses and maybe they don't silly want to start careers as writers, right? So how do you get this? And rides like since like the hardest needs to get branding, like how you structure your website, your brand and like how do you make those decisions? Anything I knew you worked at sub stack.

You're like you the first employee sub stack yeah. And then how much what your backroom is? How did how did you come to meet next?

I I I guess I met Nathan probably like six or seven years ago, maybe something like that. I just moved in new york. He is in new york. Um we were we were both in the taxi and I just saw my my previous company um before this I I worked on to enterprise, our company called firefly, that I saw the pegi, which is a big public of a company, had run the business inside peg for a little while and we met after that. And I think Nathan was working.

I think you were in a gentle assembly the time yeah and I remember I recently when we were when we were like launching the company, especially writing this whole letter. And I was going back in my note to like, try to find the first meeting and I had with Nathan. And we want to drinks together.

And I just remember being so inspired by Nathan, feeling like the kind of person that builds products that come out of his soul, like, I want to do that. That was like my first impression of anything. wow. And and yeah.

he has this. Like, he has that thing .

that thought very inspiring to me. I was coming out of an enterprise software business where I really like what I was doing and I was super into IT and a Price software is usually not your soul and if IT is your soul like I mean good for you that's all. Um and and so we we kind of stay in touch over the years.

We did a podcast together and I think always kind of look each other as people that we would eventually mean one to work with. We did actually for uh like a month two th like three or four years ago, try to work together a little bit. But basically, you know I I saw that company.

I spent a couple just like thinking about what I wanted do with my life. I spent a year or or more writing a novel um so like really like went far and wide in terms like what I I thought I might want to do. And eventually, uh probably two years ago this point, I decided I want just start a productivity software company, something like a notion or like a rome or something like that like i've always been very into productivity, very into notes and no taking.

Um and so the way that I decided to start IT was um I just I want to start a news letter first so I figured I would do a news laughter where I interview people about they're all their productivity like systems and processes. And i'd use that as like a way to get customer interviews for the thing I wanted to build because i'd be what to understand, what is the relativity stack of these people and all know how the product I want to build fit them to their life. And then, uh, over time, i'll probably like a build an audience doing that and i'll be able to launched this APP on building to those people.

So I started writing the newsletter is called super organizers still around and just got very like psyched about IT because, uh, people loved IT. Like I was growing really quickly and I was like this whole news letter thing is like really kind interesting um IT seems like it's taking off. I I love writing maybe like I should do a newsletter business instead of like a don't math for IT and eventually I I kind of kept thinking about I was like, maybe may we should do like business news letters and most of opportunity ws letters.

And I was thinking about like, who would work on with an he came up like, been doing this kind of thing for for a while, and he's was the first important subjects I called him. And he was immediately like, yes, this sounds awesome. And we started, we start working to us that that was the original kind of input to of IT.

Nothing has you decide to to leave substate was very easy.

They told me that I should believe basically this is a very interesting IT has been a huge journey for me like I do in terms of like personal growth or like self awareness or something like that in the past couple years because i've always really go the fact that I am extremely passionate about ideas and I get really excited about them.

And when I get excited about something, I have like unlimited energy and focus to work on IT, but I tend to like gravitate towards doing my own thing because I don't want to like you know yet anyone else's yum. Kind of I like very I like this feeling of me of like I like I don't like that and like I don't know what to do with that. And it's been a huge thing that then and I have like worked on together to like in order to become really like a really high functioning partnership, which I think we are today weren't anyway.

So yeah, when I was at sub stack, basically I was the first employee. IT was a very general kind of like a job. IT was like.

Cool here. I guess we'll you the V P product um you're just generally can write code and host podcast and design interfaces and go to meetings with writers. Like I was just like doing everything.

I was like, you know, another joke title for me. I was like, head boy potter, whatever was in, like from the house or whatever. So anyway, there IT was like, was really fun.

I love the founder of subside. I loved working with them on everything. But also, I was a pain in the ass for them. I was a really big pain, the ask, because I had a lot of feelings and opinions about everything that we were doing, you know, and those are hard to work.

You tell me, tell me about that. I think a lot of founders in this position, we're like, yeah, you are pensioned. You want things done the way you want them to be done.

And it's not a bad thing if you've got good ideas and make IT hard to work for all the people. You know, you know, have a cofounder, you have to collaborate at some point. How do you how do you resolve those two things?

therapy? Um no. I mean honestly, but also just like how you resolve these two things is for me definitely still working progress to some extent. I think the most important thing is to have a partner that is just committed to you and wants to work with you on IT and can hold your feelings about things. And for middle arn OK, I can take a step back.

Okay, I feel really stronger about this and then can like since and I are IT, but like, all right, let's figure out what we can actually do like it's like we can calm down now that i've had my like emotion about IT or something, I don't know there is like a lot and and I know it's really still hard for them in addition to you know and like everybody has the things I don't want over state, like i'm some like unique basket case. So whatever, I think there a lot of people that anyone any team i've ever been a part of, i've seen people argue about what should be done you know ah because people care. There's a lot at stake and people have different experiences which lead them to be sensitive to different risks, right? And that's kind of what IT comes down to is like what ideas can you perceive? What risks can you perceive? I think with dan, really just the key thing has honestly been willingness told, work on IT together with me and then keep me aside.

You use the word I think feelings, use the word feelings, I think two, three times the word emotions a couple times. So really does sound like therapy. I does sounds like a very self aware yeah.

I don't have a lot of people in the text space we are sharing. Companies use any of those. So i'm not surprising I have been able to work .

through things well, it's funny because this is really like, I mean, this is usually dense influence on me. I had never really, I think typically in the therapy a little bit in like high school when I was I was like diagnosed with A D H D, whatever.

And at the time I was kind of like arona like nice to have some adult like guess because IT helped with homer and stuff like that but like I didn't really like buying to IT really understand IT at all and so I ve never been the theory before. I never really thought about like how my brain weren't do anything else like that and um yeah damage is a little bit more like experienced with with therapy and just more to to IT. And so we we went basically like I started therapy and I started doing couples therapy.

And it's honestly been the best like investment in our business ever because I think the number one reason why most companies fail is either because the confidence have some conflict that causes them to just like lose trust, lose respect, you know, something like that happens or it's like this cold war simmering thing where they're just not really kind of rowing in harmony together because they just choose to let some things go uncommunicated. And we kind of share this theory that like the business world is like just bursting to discover therapy, basically. And coaching is kind of like the very early signal of like tip the sphere. But so much of work is about emotions and communication and you know turns out like that their piece that's what they're therefore, um yeah it's really good.

There are super usual. And you know to your point, a lot of companies in place because covenas some get along and it's one of those things where I think when you're looking at competition on the outside and like you don't see co founder dispute. So if i'm looking at subject, like I have no idea what's going out of the cofounder ers.

And so I think when people try to start companies is easy to underestimate, like how important that relationship is and how important to your success like keeping that relationship healthy is. And i'm sure they're like a bunch of people into this right now who work in our companies with cofounded ers and things aren't going well and they haven't thought about, you know getting a theri to train to resolve things because that seems like a distraction from the real work of writing code or hiring journalists. However, IT is I need to do yeah.

yeah. I think everyone has this idea that everyone else has their shit together more than they do. And when you like when you pull back the court on IT, it's like everyone has these like conflict at work and everyone is internally feeling all these things that they don't really express.

They are anxious or depress. They are whatever. Um and i'm always surprised I want to want to talk to someone he's really successful that they feel that way. And i've been thinking about this for a long time.

So um I think like for us one one of things we do we we have a podcast called talk therapy where we just like we talk about our own their experiences and then we also like interview people about their experiences. And it's it's really it's really interesting to see that. And yeah, I do think like when I was Younger, I was very much on the like.

He just going to like write code and make the right decisions and you know everything will be everything will be great. But I think what that misses is that business the cliche as businesses about people um but IT is true. And if IT is about people, then the way that people behave in the way that people think, in the way people feel is like incredibly important. And being able to like figure out how to work in harmony with with people even when people have different opinions, is is a really, uh, in different ways processing the world is I I think we both feel is kind of a little bit of a superpower if you can if you can do IT and therapy is a really good tool to understand like what you're bringing to situations and how your own brain works and then also how others brains works um and it's been really great for us.

Agree more. So what did your partner ship look like at the beginning in terms of the non relationship part of IT, like the access decisions you were making, like the down to the breast tax stuff? Like how do you get a company like every off the ground?

And one of things we did, first, we had this idea for this media company, like, I think from the very beginning, we wanted do a bunch of different business news, is we wanted to do IT in this certain kind of style, which for practitioners, we thought we might want to do IT as as a bundle where people could one present, get access all the stuff because nation had seen um some of that stuff like signs is that song like that might work from sub stack.

And what we did first is we we have wanted to do IT pretty step by step. We wanted to do IT pretty organically so that we didn't like announce, hey, we're doing a single everywhere. Not we didn't say like it's it's going to be a bundle or a media company.

Whoever what we did was I was running my new user organizers, which was preexisting, and then they started a news letter called devices. And we kind of just like and them as separate news letters for a little while because we thought we would be good idea to just at base, what we're doing is we're making content or writing. And the best way to test that is just right um and see if people will pay for IT and see if we could grow.

And we figure if if that works, then we take an next step. And so we did that for a couple months. IT was working people.

People were paying for super organizers. They are paying for definitions they are reading, IT and really liking yet. And then we're like, okay, pick the next step.

The next step was testing, testing the idea of a bundle. Will anybody want to pay for two publications at once? And will that work? And so what we did was we just started a third sub stack.

We started a third sub stack. We meet all of our content onto IT. And then we launched IT to the audience. And we said, hey, like we're doing, we're doing this bundle of these two publications. Again, we didn't announce as a company, we even incorporated like or any of that stuff. We just tried IT and like immediately the business like I don't know, I don't know what happened, but like double overnight, IT was like IT was a big thing you could not miss in the graph that really well.

Why do you think people care so much about the bundle? I mean, they could just get your two the news letter separately. Was there some message that said, OK, hey, these are graded in the sum of their parts. So there's like some sort of like higher level purpose we're going to provide for you to get both these things together.

Yeah, I think the big thing is if you already kind of want both of them, then bungling them, you just offered the discount. So IT was basically fifteen dollars a month each for our news letters. And then IT was twenty doors a one to get both of them. So if you like really like one and uh, you kind of like other, you're interested in IT. But like you know if you'd pay fifteen dollars a month for IT, um the bundle is like a pretty good deal and that's great because you know this is sort like the magic of bungling is it's basically a form of Price discrimination where you can say, like, okay, i'm going to average out your demand for like three different products almost and say, okay, like personnel is like really into like this publication and not so into that publication and then this other publication, they like a little bit.

But there are some demand, but it's not enough to charge like the market clearing Price take that across a whole bunch of different consumers and everyone's got their own unique kind of like preference curve and then you can kind of just average IT all together to like just some the like willingness to pay across each publication and IT equals some number that's like less than they at all cost if you added them up as individual Prices, but more than what people would pay if each one was charging their own individual Price. So it's like win, win for consumers because consumers get access to more stuff, more options for like less money. And it's a win for creators because consumers are spinning a little bit extra than they Normally would spend because they Normally would just be missing out on a whole bunch of things.

But now they get access to because they're paying a little bit more, but they don't have to pay the full Price more. So anyway, I have tried to it's a very IT is up being very maths and I wrote like a whole post about that kind of like digging to math of like an excel model in graph and all this kind of stuff I got really fascinated by just sort of like that, almost like the economics of that. And I was just insanely cool to see when we launched like our own bundle, like it's like, wow, that actually works. Like that's that's very wild. Yeah yeah it's cool.

And I think it's I think this whole idea of bundle ling things together is like criminally underused. It's that we don't think about IT that much in publications and writing like IT happens, you know.

But like for you and believing with like sas companies, I thought to so many different hackers we're working on like who don't different tools at seat and trying to get attention and like very rarely do they come together to one company to another may be some of other companies and say, let's bundle other products together. Let's offer like some value to customers. We have a business sweet or whatever, which could have a lot of value and I could like get them a lot more customers, a lot more attention than they get otherwise. So I wonder if people follow your example and do more this building up in the future because it's so blue and makes lot of sense.

Yeah, it's interesting. I think people have the association with bundles that is like the cable bundle. Everyone hates the cable. You know, that's what I thought like I wouldn't thought of this if Nathan hadn't been like look at the economic bundle. Ling it's so cool, you know um and it's true like IT works IT works really well um if if if you do IT right um and and obvious ly it's a great part um that has driven a lot of a lot of grothus .

yeah the opposite process can say something like bx unbundling bigger publications like like individual journalists are leaving the new york times and leaving other huge publications to go right on their own. That seems to be a big offer them IT seems to like for the writer, seems to be like a Better deal totally.

yeah. The two things i'll say about that and then also the cable bundle thing is there's definite a lot of places when unbundled ling makes a lot of sense or just never starting with a bundle in the first place. So like um one key thing is like your uh enjoyment or experience of one thing, like should not be inhibited by other things in the bundle that you don't like.

So in spotify or netflix was a lot of movies that I don't like, but i'm not really annoyed, ed, by their presence there. Like IT doesn't be my way. So like that's a really that's a really important thing. And maybe if there's like just really one calmest at the new work times so you just want to read their stuff. And but the new attempt doesn't make IT easy to just subscribe to that one person.

You have to sign up for some whole opinion newsletter rap or you visit the website and it's like several clicks or would ever there's value to just being able access to and that's that's just purely a product function, almost like IT doesn't. It's not inherent to like all you have to buy the bundle to be a part of IT, but also if there's other stuff in the bundle that really has zero value, like, let's say, the only way in the world to buy like french hrs was to also buy a hamburger and soda, right? That will be really knowing because like some people just want fries sometimes, you know.

And so you don't have to offer everything only as a bundle. You could also separate IT out where it's like there's like all the car or whatever. And we do try that on our in the same way that you can sort of get you know a monthly subscription to ever.

You can also technically get a standard and subscription to just one of the newsletters, but it's also a kind of berry because we just wanted to see like to people want this like so it's the same offer as before, like fifteen a month, one hundred fifty dollars a year verses the twenty or two hundred for the whole bundle. But yeah, basically, if you're paying for a lot of stuff that you d really, truly don't want, like if you just want one, like all you care about the cable one do is E S P N or something, then that can be a bad deal. But there's this other part of bundling or sometimes people perceive IT to be a bad deal and it's really not which is the Price of the bundle should never be just the sum of all the individual Prices, right?

That's like defeats the whole purpose of bungling IT should be at some discount because you've got assume not everyone wants everything equally. So people often think though, oh, like i'm paying seventy dollars a month for cable and only one is E S, P N, and i'm getting seventy channels. So should I just pay one month? P, I think if I was on a zone and probably be charging forty, you know like you like. And so that that is a thing that is um a little bit difficult is just the consumer perception of value can get work, especially it's a really long lasting bundle that's been around for what I think would paid news letters that feels kind of fresh like oh twenty dollars a month for like three newsletters I want in a couple other ones that also seem kind of feels like a good deal because or so we're in the unbundled ling moment was saying for people like oh, one of these individuals is probably ten, fifteen, twenty box a month .

yeah and I think for you in particular, like the bundle you've created, it's not sort of arbitrary. Like if I go to the other times, like i'm getting news, but it's like it's news about everything. You know like it's really hard to like focus on and to be like, well, what do I really want for the new ark times?

Um with average, it's like very pacific. You're focus on business. I mean, i'm really right now as everything is a bundle of business focus newsletters and we see business as endeavor, that's interexchange interesting. And we hope to build a Better world by helping people tell basically become Better business Operators. And at the end of the day, like that's a very sustained value proposition. And IT makes a lot of sense if I like want to learn about business that I could just go describe to every rather than subscribing to like a million different news letters or whatever, like the fact that you bundle things together that makes IT easier for me as a consumer to make fewer decisions.

yeah. And it's also why we kind of our wedge is like this sort of really specific like strategy and productivity focus and specifically like tech ish focus and like kind of we've got particular areas especially strong on like creator economy type issues. We ve got a lot of good stuff on on that like either, and we have a publication means a creation that I do with legion.

So we've got our kind of like fish that we come out within that. And then hopefully in the same way that you know whatever, like facebook started to harvard, uber started and services go we can get to other industries is like, you know wealth management or waste manager and those like the two you go to use that we have everything from the manager to west managment yeah hopefully we can get to those. But we got to figure out a lot of core kind of like mechanics first and learn and get IT really working. And our kind of like White hot center of act, where everything super liquid and we're driving a lot of cross discovery in the value, is really working up for the bundle for people. I don't think with there, we've got a lot of work to do IT to even sort of make sense to go if we're uber like make that work for us.

What you started off like very humble beginnings. You guys combined two newsletters and to one sub second news letter. You saw that, that was a definite Spike in your business. Where did you go from there? Because you have come a long way sense.

Then the next thing that we did, we wanted do to start to experiment with adding more people into the ball. So we knew we could work with Nathan and I who just kind effectively pulled our resources and what kind of like we both collectively owe the company, even though I wasn't even an incorporated as a company. But like the are 会 有人 we wanted to know， like what would you take to to get a writer who wasn't part of the company but maybe like just had a news utter or can start a news utter with us um as a writer more less um and so the first the first thing we did was just starting to go find other rider and uh we ended a partner in with this guy yoga 4t who is a really um well known productivity expert is a course called building a second brain which is which is amazing and he has this new pay， new practice. And we wanted to just basically figure out, like if we if we want to with someone like that, what happens?

Like if we if we can incorporate his pay news tracer, like what is the deal that we could give to someone like that, that would make IT appealing? And then what happens if if we do get someone like that to join the border, do we still see our growth? And so that moment was another moment where we tried IT and IT worked like we found a deal that work for him and we grew a lot when we did IT. Um he convert to a lot of his audience into the describe for every see like a good thing for both sides.

Can you explain what that product that pitch was like to get together for taken to join you because that's a hard pitch to make, right? He's doing just well. Just find on his own.

Yeah I I think um basically the the pitch at the time was, hey, like we know you here's this here's this way that you can reach with your newsletter more people who might want to pay for right now, but probably um because IT doesn't offer enough value. But if you pitch, they get your newsletter plus a couple other ones that y've heard of like the organizers or defines for a little bit of a higher Price, you'll be able to get people who wouldn't have ordinarily signed up his uses called Prices who wouldn't have ordinarily signed up for practice.

But because IT now is offered with some other stuff like IT pushes them over the edge and so you're going to make more money and you going to have a bigger audience for this news later than you would ordinarily um and that was the that was the idea and and and IT was kind of trying to respond to the objection of like what about my my own news that I am currently running like I like cannabis ing IT and the the answer was, well, what we hope is the way that these final economics works is that people who really just want to aces are going to sign up for practice on its own through you. The people who wanted a little bit, but really want some other stuff that might come with IT are going to sign up through us. And currently, you're not monitor zing them, but we will help you right.

and practice you still available the standard and subscription that is a lot cheaper. So if you want to just get practice, you can pay less for IT. So there's the kinzer thing is a little bit if they were the same Price for something like they're some people who have newsletters that are like you very financing and they charge forty dolla month, that's tough for us to me that so where it's like get this news letter and a bunch of other stuff that you might also like for cheaper.

yes.

we have to raise overall Price for that work.

Yeah.

so so he just continued publishing who's that on his own. It's kind of like a risk free deal for him. Like why not also co published to your bundle, get some sextus subscribers and is really no downside?

Exactly was like it's a six months commitment. Who doesn't work? It's fine. Um yeah, I was just like IT was just a test for him also.

It's a side like his big thing is the courses so he can be a little bit more experimental with IT. Um so we tried IT IT worked again and we're like, what we're really like, everything we're doing is working. This is crazy.

It's like now we're making money. Maybe we should incorporate. So we incorporated, which is which is kind of bunning.

I think we're like ten K M R R when we finally .

yeah like .

created an entity which is kind of fun because all my other businesses have created an entity like very far in any of revenue and the revenue really came.

I think we take a lot of pride in the first first it's like what's make a product that people want and more pay for. And then we can figure all the other stuff after like the trappings of whatever, like we we d took us like a year to make swag um which this wag is awesome. But also, I think we are both preprint of. And so at that point, we were like OK, this is working. It's it's a business we honest we hadn't even announced IT as a business.

IT was I just still just look like a couple subsets to the outside world and then we decided to raise money for IT, which was there was another big conversation about like what we do, how much should we raise like all that kind of stuff because my my previous background is book dropping and bridge up my business before I sold IT and and eight back and was venture and I was very skeptical venture and Nathan was very exceptional of building a really big business through, but dropping. And so we had to really kind of like merge our perspectives. And I think we we came to something really good yeah how well for us yeah .

seems like a discussion that is right for requiring guys to go to sound therapy.

Yes, pretty big disagreement.

How did you decide that the right decision was to to raise ventral capital?

Well, we did IT in a very funny way. So first of all, we're very clear like this is anticipating to be the like potentially the only money we ever raise. There could be some time in the future when we wants to raise more, but maybe not like we're not.

We're just because we decide to raise now IT doesn't mean we decide to get on the trade mall. okay. So how do you avoid getting on the treat mall?

One really important thing is to just stay pretty close to profitability. Um that's that's really important. So that was a decision we made as a part of that funding rates that we communicated really clearly to all our of our investors. Another thing is to not let the valuation cap on the on the safe sort of like get away from us.

A lot of I mean, we probably could have raised that like two x or maybe even more of the cap just capture crazy these dates for the stage companies granted or media company and maybe whatever stuff is not as attractive as some tech companies. But still um you know we won't want to pretty low cap because we wanted to imagine, okay, let's say we don't raise any more money. Let's say we just wanted keep Operating this for like a while.

We love in the business. It's working, it's growing. But we want to buy out these initial investors at some point if they want to be bought out because there may not be some imminent liquidity event.

What's a cap in an amount we raise, ed, on that cap that we could envision ourselves paying out some reasonable multiple in the future to buy that stock back. So the higher your cap, the more you raise, the much more difficult that becomes and becomes. Most arts just never do that. They either get acquired that they returns your money to their investors. So we wanted to keep that reasonable.

Um and we also like uh one of our investors uh point IT like morani zing like we the moral rights to our investors were like, you know look like don't invest like you have a right to not invest in this if you don't like we're not doing the traditional venture thing you know we're raising. We're raising this money, but you might be the last money we raise. We might offered to buy you out and like five years if that's the path that seems like it's going down, whatever.

Um and everyone is called that basically everyone was like, I like I want investing you regardless because all there is like a couple people that said no but most of the people are also reduce focusing on Angels you know like people who then it's not institutional capital for the most part, that had a very specific file we did raise from Better ck. They do have a very specific profile and Better, which is just basically get like you all want to build a big business. I get if you don't want to get ahead of the yourselves, I get of media like is is historical tRicky.

But like you, you have the vision for your building. We believe in the vision for your building. We think this work out. So IT was a little bit of an untraditional rates.

But it's also it's getting less crazy like uh to to do that like notion didn't raise money for a long time until they raise huge drawn to get up raise money for a long time until there is is you don sharp fy you know male jump. There are really big businesses that have been built this way. And I think a lot of the forces of Operating and businesses way make you a Better business.

Yeah for sure. They force you to be disappoint. They force to focus on what actually will keep your company is surviving rather than just getting on this like treatment of raising more and more and more money.

And we'll figure IT out later. I think one of the things that makes you less traditional, in addition to the fact that you didn't want to raise additional rounds was, as you said, like you're immediate company, not really a tech company. And generally speaking, people who raise VC or tech companies who are raising money because it's going to massively accelerate our growth, they're becomes a huge phenomenon.

The future I guess, what does your future vision look like? Like how do you convince investors that you're going to build some huge, massive thing when you're not a ted company? Or is that even the pitch that you needed to make totally?

I when we did, I mean, we did have to we did have to say, like, look, we have a big vision for this. And this is how we think IT can be big. IT may not be big on the timescale of like traditional venture.

And so we want to reserve the idea that, that IT won't and make that decision in a year or two. And we know a little bit more about the business. So you should know that you're taking the option of IT being really big and we're onna try our best to make IT really big.

But in the case there is not. We want to preserve the offer to run the business that we want to run. And and the vision that we pitch is kind of what we talked about today, which is we want to cover every topic and business.

We want to be A A place where are readers can come and we can we can provide them and experience where we matched them with, with the kinds of writers that we think we're going to be good for them. So every reader kind of to get their own experience. And we have this new economic model for writers that we believe will help us quire the best writers.

And we can kind of create this firewheel where we have we have a lot of readers that we can draft the writers that helps us attract the best writers. And we have the best deal for writers, which helps us attract more readers. And we kind of create this machine that we think can get big, really big over time.

So that's the thing that we pitched. And we also kind of said, but also IT might not exactly work like that. And we we want to take the time to figure that out.

And I think our investors were were pretty cool with that idea. And I should also note that is IT was easier for us because we both have software tech backgrounds and have the relationships with venables and Angels. And so I think many of them looked at us and looked at what we are doing and said, like, well, they have the right profile.

So even if I don't fully believe in the exactly what are doing right now, like will probably a twt. The public to software. I don't think that that's what our lead thinks. Our lead believes in what we're doing and understands IT really well and thinks IT can be big.

But I think a lot of Angels did yeah I I think to me, there is like this pretty clear, exciting thing about like our model that's really different from a Normal media company, which is Normal media companies the way they work is they have a brand and IT stands for one precious c thing. And all the articles pretty much go out to all of their readers.

And so the problem with that is, and then the other thing they do is they mostly monitors your ads. And this is the model when people say media doesn't like this is the model that people have in mind. We're not this model in two ways, I think, are pretty important think we think really important that may or may network.

But it's at least like in theory, it's a good reason why we might be able to exceed the scale of some of those. One is the every brand doesn't publish any articles. We only publish articles under sub brands which are individual news letters and those can be extremely tight and focused and and unique to the author or the authors that are kind of like driving IT.

Um but overall average is a collection like a patient of all these different cool things. That's like I think that can that sort of brand architecture almost can scale little bit Better than then sort of like a Normal media company. And the key way that we make that work is by having really good cross promotion of the news letters to our readers.

So for a reader, if we have algorithms that are like you know based on some combo of expose its signals like following or impose its signals like times are reading or reading articles and stuff like that, we recommend really consistently good stuff to you. Then it's got a little bit more platform type of attributes. Basically, i'm very early on.

This is very untested. But where are you building some stuff that's kind like getting to this like for new users were running an ab test where half of our users right now are receiving a day, and it's a personalize just whatever thing is going to be the best thing for you. If it's a publication, you if a publication that you follow, publish the new thing, you just get that are otherwise you get like something from our great sit, we have a lot of really ever Green stuff.

Something that's related to topics you seem to be interested in is a so we're early on that, but it's like exciting um and and hopefully the results will be promising, but we don't really know yet because we're literally it's like less than we go to. So um but then the other the other key thing besides that sort of like brand architecture or personalization stuff that I think could help a schemmer is the way that we pay with writing feels more like, oh, I think there's a lot of turn in media at the very top. There's not as much look at the new orka.

There are people that right there for like over the net times can like same deal. But it's been it's really hard if you're one of the other companies because people you know they are they're always looking to kind of like level up, go to the next thing. And I think the reason they do that is because it's really hard to get a raise in most of media.

I mean, this is why it's Better to end up getting like a book deal or something like that because at least it's like revenue share. Um I think that the big thing that's happening now because the internet finally is this sort of like best alternative to negotiate agreement with your publisher is like what I could go on my own, I could do a sub stack. There's this confidence of writers that has kind of changed.

I think the negotiations for publishers and we think of ourselves as kind of like, okay, like what's the model you do in the world is really easy for anyone to start their own sub stack IT. Probably this does not look like that what the model used to be able to get away as a publisher. And so hopefully, we end up having you Better time or attention because is just so much more ownership as a writer of you're connection with your audience, your ownership of the upside financially. And hopefully, I hope to you let's .

talk about marketing growth connecting reader's readers because this is something that I think most people struggle on the internet who are trying to starting any sof company, whether they putting out media, whether trying to start a SaaS business, is hard to get people in the door and you guys have to good at that. others. SE is really not solid reason for writers to join your collective. What did your charge is been? You know, how do you get people to actually come and read every insubordination .

to every that's that's a great question. And the answer that we have so far is like it's pretty boring. Honestly, it's we right? We try to write really good stuff that we think will resonate with people that certainly knew an interesting that hits on topics that people like having their heads or answers questions that they have in their heads.

And then we put her on twitter, uh and we put on hat er news and sometimes that goes viral. And that's like that's honestly the core. And doing that consistently is is kind of the core of how we grow so far, there are a couple of more sophisticate output.

An airport te ophite cater things that we do to and and we're starting to change all a bit because at the place we are now, like I think it's useful to start actually being a little bit more in the weeds on like different growth tactics and stuff like that. We're really certain to get more. Sophy cared about that.

But I think especially when you're starting out, the thing to do is just make good stuff, especially in media because that's the idea is like if you write something, really it's gna spread. So another thing that we've done over time is kind of the model that I that I started with super organisers, which is interviewing people. So when you do an interview with someone and you write IT up and you do a job, and I like that they share with our audience.

So if you can write really good interviews and get people who have successively more and more followers every time you publish you, you get exposed to their audience, and you can kind of recruit their audience to be your audience. And then that means you can get something even more famous next time. IT doesn't like fully work exactly like that all the time.

But sometimes the famous people don't share IT want to see. You have to mix in people who are not famous, because sometimes famous people are just aren't good. They just like have these bits that they just like give you.

And but they given IT two hundred people before. So I feel like raw things that we've done right now, something that was preventing with is just like cat doing cross promote with other newley ters. We have someone who's doing growth of us and he's just setting up different cost promise with news lighters that, that were a fan of. And that has been actually fairly sucessful so far. But yeah, I think I think we're we're just at the very earliest stages of figuring out like how to grow beyond yeah just just running stuff that that people .

really like yeah yeah and I think all the like other stuff kind of depends on that first core layer of just the writing being really good. So it's like we focus away more time on editing pieces and like figure in out what makes a good ece on that kind of stuff. Then we do like you know, doing cross promote, whatever else we're just now starting to do cross promote. But it's like the cross prom wouldn't work if the pieces weren't that good and if the pieces are good, you don't need cross prom of that bad because people to share IT on to her. So it's like really the high bit is editor basically yeah.

there's nothing more shareable than basically articles online, every single social horse formatted to allow you to share links and like low up into a cool little expanded version with the picture and stuff. Like if you write good content, people share IT. What have you learned about writing good content?

We're developing some like frameworks around this. One is um um engine drag and lift. So three interesting things. Lift is a new one that racial jobs in our executive editor came up with that I love. But so the engine of the piece is like the core idea.

Like why am I here in the first place? You know it's just like oh like you're going to run like if you're here, it's like oh, you're going to learn how to start a new media company um or at least how these people did that, you know whatever like you're going learn a bunch like run them other bits about this kind of world along the way. You may be confind the relationships that's like the engine of this podcast interview that we're doing.

Drag is like, okay, maybe you have a really strong engine, but just the way you wrote like the sentences don't make sense. They're they lodge for me to other you start lost. And so I think about that kind of like a car. This is funny this before I got into formula, now that i'm into formula and i'm like way into the snooze. Um but it's sort of like if you have a car that has really terrible era dynamics, no matter how strong the engineers people are going na fall off.

But it's really hard as an editor to fix an engine that just not there like sometimes the engine is just weak or like IT only appeals as to like a really tiny subset of people and it's kind of like this is very specific. Like me, you might want to make IT a little bit more brought or something like that, but you know, the engine is kind of like the curse on where there the drag is, like anything in the way that is written that gets in the way of sort of accessing the power of that engine. And then lift is just funny little things, like a voice or jokes or town that kind of like keep you stick around, like when someone makes you chuckle in the medical writing, or someone just points out something is really insightful.

If it's besides the point of the engine, you're just kind of reached for another like two minutes at least of reading, you know cause like something good may be around the corner and so that little left those little nice. 对。 Those kind of helped you. But yeah, I don't know that kind like our overall framework, then you've got a lot of other, other stuff on this to do.

yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of things within that like what makes a good engine and and also like how do you get the best out at a writers? So like one lesson that we keep learning over and over again is like writers.

The best pieces are written by writers who care about those pieces and want to write them and trying to make a writer do something that they don't want to do is like not, not gonna work. So it's like a lot of the best piece has come from writers kind of digging into their own soul and like what they're interesting. If they're interested in IT, then IT probably do well for people who are like them and so or are interested the same things as they are.

And so like that's reflecting in our model like anything. And I don't go to writers and be like, hey, you should write up this this week like like each publication inside of every that each news letter is its own publication with its own writer who has the voice and vision of the newsletter and is the one who has the finger on on the poles of the audience. And IT gets to say, like, this is, this is what i'm into, and this is where I want to lead the audience, you know, within certain bounds, obviously.

And our jobs that help them do that Better to bring that out, bring more, more of them out into their pieces, rather than being the ones you like a sign stories and say like is what you got to cover. And that's that's one of the reasons why we think this can be bigger than just like protein. The strategy tech focus articles is like the the the vision for each publication lives in the writer.

And it's so it's a little bit more and essential, zed, than like a typical media company. So that's that's one thing. And and it's really hard to to to remember that because I think we typically like our like you should do this .

and we get exit about IT. I yeah yeah IT feels like all like, you know, we have a media company. We should be able to be excited about ideas and get you to our ideas. But like, yeah yeah if we wanted done well, yeah like just our idea. You know, the visions in our head and you know, yeah so i've got some stuff that are right dean has some stuff that heroes we have things that were excited about but um hope it's like the purpose of the company ultimately is to be like a jet pack .

for writers to get what they want faster and a parachute yeah that false .

is like the media equivalent of like I .

just need a technical cofounder to mean this idea I know actually to and so yeah for me it's like, oh, I have this idea you should write IT it's like actually know I should just write IT because you don't have that idea, whatever you know. So that that's one big thing that we've learned.

I think like in terms of different engines, like pieces that um put their finger on things that people have been thinking a lot but like having don't have the words for usually do really, really well pieces that hit on timely topics but have some thing to say that is like new and interesting do you really well and that's hard actually it's really hard to chase that. We we just recorded to pocket yesterday where we were talking about this feeling that are you almost need to have your finger on the pulse of, like what people are publishing that you can do that too. And it's like actually but once start doing that, when you started, like looking whatever else is doing, like you lose whatever that is that can get people interested in what you're doing because you no longer original and you just kind of like recycling ideas.

So I think both of us probably read few newsletters onest ly. We probably just read lot of books and do all of thinking and talking to people that we think are smart. And that's a really good way to to generate some of these ideas.

So you take a tRicky, a tRicky line to walk because people really like to share and talk about things that like they already sort of know about, you know, like people are all talking about a particular thing. Then it's just like, you know, like during the election season, for example, everybody wants to share articles about the election because they call their friends are reading about and talking about IT.

But IT is sure that if you follow what everybody is doing, what everybody else is doing too closely, that you do lose what makes you unique and what makes you special. And so I like your trade as you sort of reading books and reading things that other people necessarily reading, because you can order of react to, that you'll come with fresh ideas that people haven't heard before. And you can, if you want to apply IT two topics that people are excited to share and talk about.

I'm curious. I mean, indie hackers has an amazing audience. And like h did like what we just said vibe with your experience, like also we don't have hard we have some podcast.

Are none of them are that big yet? Like i'm curious if IT works differently in podcast. I I want to table office .

yeah totally. Podcasts are very different, medium and written content and it's easy to get sucked into know the pair times of one and relic transport those to the other. And IT doesn't necessarily work. For example, you talked about like the engine drag and lift. I think drag for a podcast is a lot about sort of the report or between like the guest and the host, right, how smoothly is the conversation flowing and if it's like a sort of oakwood stilted conversation that doesn't select people know each other or friendly with each other, it's just hard to listen to you. So some of my best episodes, for example, of just ben with people who are not really close to you, where people can tell that we're close. And I think it's because people generally listen podcast, even if their educational for more entertainment like past the time sort of purposes that just sort of going to walk the dog, you're going going to run, you're going to the the store and they just want something that just like smooth flowing and that feels really good. And so like that's an example of something specific that might be a pocket .

but not in written before vive.

Yeah exactly. And then for like the web stuff, like we don't hire what we do, actually work with a few journalists and step like generally speaking, like random people over the world, right? Stuff from any hackers.

And our sort of process is very different from new year. So we're not like how do we only get the best content possible. We're much more like how do we get as many people as possible writing and then create an algorithm and like a community, people who vote and filter of the best after the top.

And then we'll just prove that and put that on our news letter and that sort of an incentive to get people to write Better stuff. But like I don't you know at any point time expect most of the stuff written on in the hash to be particularly good. So as long as the home page is good, that's fine.

And so it's a very different approach. I mean, i'm looking at your home page right now for every you can have, uh, just like a giant list of articles in its default sorted by newest IT hasn't always been like that. I remember going to read resent the past IT was kind of like, here's what ever is and you talked about your brand and republicans. So i'm curious that why you decided to switch to the sort of, I guess, reverse quando logical list of articles exactly. I would guess it's because you want people to develop a habit of coming to your home page and reading IT.

Yeah, but that's just the logged in versus the log that experience. So you're logged in out. If you open experiment, you'll probably see the same thing that you're remembering ing.

Okay, I see. yeah. So it's very different. So it's not like because any hackers we do, just like the lot and experience is the same as a lot of experience.

Just give you list ideas, very much like develop regular daily habit of coming through the site and seeing what's new. What are the only happens if things are changing IT like a very regular clip. So asic volume is very important.

Yeah totally. It's something that we talked about like before we are building our own platform because you know used to be on and you know all sudden it's like we have a choice like what do we want our home page to look like, you know? And you know there's two different direction tions.

You can go with that or you can try and find some different middle ound, but there's like, you know do you wanted to be like a landing page that describes what the thing is? Or do you just want to have a bunch of articles, right? Like, so it's like just get people into reading as fast as possible.

And we ended up going for the landing pages that describes what the thing is because I felt like it's a new thing. We wanted give people a chance to feel like they're oriented. You know, I felt like really useful to sort of stay overall.

What do we do like? What do we focus on? What are we all about? But then to get your review, get you end, and then you just have the list of articles basically.

And so that's basically the way that works now. But yeah, we're definitely gonna keep experimenting with that as we as we grow. And maybe the need for I can explain to our home page or less or something like once if it's like becomes really well known or something like that the dinner could change.

Yeah, cool. I mind you guys for information about higher business works. It's super cool. I hope this model ends up being sort of a wonder in the long run, not just for youtube sake, but because I think it's Better for writers, it's Better for readers.

I am the guy who has spent a lot of time coming the internet last year trying to put together, you know, the perfect collection of news letters that I would want to actually read my m box every day, and I just scribed every. And hopefully i'll save a lot of time because I could a random hodgepodge that is not at all all his high quality. So I love you guys up to you.

Thank you very much. That means the time, really, I ve you rope to thank you for, thank you for for doing everything that you do. I have learned on from from the podcast and from what people write in the community. So means a lot to be here.

Cool well, can you guys let people know where they can go to find every and also um whatever else that is the two .

of years of working on yeah ah they can find us at every dot T O every dot two or on twitter at at every and yeah subscribe. Alright thanks, thanks, thank you. Thank you.