#226 – How to Be Your Own VC with James Layfield of Clearfind
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What's up, everybody? This is courtland from any hacker's 点 com and you're listening to the ni hacker's podcast。 More people than ever are building cool stuff online and making a lot of money in the process. And on this show, I sit down with these andy hackers to discuss the idea as the opportunities and the strategies they're taking advantage of so the rest of us can do the same. James lad, welcome to you the in the hacker's podcast.

Thank you for having me here to you.

You read the founder, a company called clear find. It's SaaS business and software, a service which I think is extremely hard to do nowadays. It's kind of like every engineers dream to build some software that you know you put that out there and it's in the world. And now all your customers are using IT in the clicking buttons and getting emails, notifications and paying you money every night while you're to sleep, while you're making tea, you're doing whatever you want. Like software is awesome, but it's so crowded.

So many people are doing software as a service businesses and felt like there were no more ideas left in this space five, six years ago, let alone a couple years ago, three years ago, when you started to clear find and yet you've gone to this place today. That's amazing. You know, I go to your website and you're clearly crushing IT.

You have some really big brand name customers like you're selling air B N B, reselling to zoom, we're selling to slack. I just want to say it's awesome. Curious spoke, you know how you feel about your progress so far? Where is clarified and are you happy with with where you've done to .

that is a beautiful intention to that. So thank you. appreciated.

So like any journey, a special entrepreneur journey, IT is always easier when you when you are when you look back on what you have to go through to get what you. And so it's been a long journey, this one. So I i've had i've had many businesses.

So I can talk as a soft serial founder, civil part. I think this is my fourteen fifteen business so pretty more than most people ever do. And i've done IT in every sector from uh hinted to V C from in this last one sas to property.

You name IT. I've got IT. And so i've got an interesting specifical perspective and please find is a really beautiful, beautiful business. I love what we've created.

You say there is definitely a sense that i've always trying to to create something where you can go to see, but you're making out and that isn't very beautiful idea of what this might be like. It's never right. But the realities of clear find we set out to do wing the is unique and to the best of my knowledge and listeners, email.

And if this is not true, we are the only people in the world are doing what we're doing. Now that sounds like an insane, ridiculous overclaim. And the reason I know isn't an overclaim is because of the people that we're talking to uh, out in the world in terms of potential clients, people in poc with and clients, the types of conversation we having with them mean that if there was something else doing, what we doing the conversation join a very different way.

But what Normally happens this they are over the moon to hear from us and they're excited that we're able to solve a problem, that they're not be able to solve a to. Now, sir, what on earth is play find? So what can you find is it's about understanding the software you have at a fundament level in terms of what the software does.

So uniquely, we have a dataset that we've spent a lot of R N D. Working hard together on the features of different pieces of software. Nobody else has that data set gara, doesn't have IT g two, doesn't have A X 3， doesn't have a delay, doesn't have a google, doesn't IT, nobody has IT.

Because for whenever reason, people haven't bothered or wanted to look at that level of grand la. And so we went out to the market and decided to uncover this crucial piece of information, which is is all very well knowing that you have a software. But if you don't know what IT does at a feature level comprehensively, you can't strategy understand how that fits within your business and your new requirements.

So we did that work. We are out in the market now. You say we've got some amazing traction with some amazing clients. And interestingly, some of the world's largest consulting firms are now using our tool to do this work for them, for their clients. It's so much more effective than the way being done to date.

H I got a few questions. First of all, do you share like revenue numbers or like ball park revenue numbers that something .

count at this stage? Um we are not publicly information that is more because and up until now, I funded the business myself, uh and so it's been a really useing journey for that. And I would definitely say to people who are looking at starting funding to visit yourself, create lots of interesting chAllenges.

One obviously is many your money, which is one chance. But what's really instance is the V C world is very much a game to some and if you're in the game, you can play the game. And when you outside the game, they don't want let you into the game, uh and so they don't really love IT when you find yourself, what do you do is to get their money.

And so I think there is an interesting lesson there, which if you want to play the V C game and you want to grow your company with V C money, which for some companies makes a lot of sense for my company, I think IT makes sense. Don't put those of you are money to stop IT because i'm not loving IT. So I put around three million dollars of my money, which a lot of money, and I obi obviously quite commission to this project basing really interesting toy of VS, because they're like what you bootleg is, a three million dollars of boots in, how you invest will put a millions.

So what a third of what i've put in. Yeah, okay. And i've been dropt IT. It's just such a weak conversation.

And so at the moment, because we're literally, as we speak now fund raising, we're in a diem position fund raising because of these DNA ics. We've gone after a problem that no else that to solved. And so it's a hard problem to solve.

And we have solved IT, but we had to spend the money to solve IT. And i'm not sure that VC money would be being patient enough with us because we didn't even start selling to last october three years. We didn't try and making money.

We weren't going to market at all because we had to create the problem. We create the problem and then went to market. And so right now, we're doing that foundation thing. And so any VC listening, the car got special revenue, the money we just not declaring.

okay, that makes perfect sense. And I have a thousand questions. I want to ask you about putting three million dollars of your own money into this business, why you so convicted, how to even half three million dollars put into the business.

But maybe we will get to that eventually. And maybe the best way to started is like at the beginning, you said that you started fourteen, fifteen businesses. How many of those would you consider different successful? And how many of those did you did you .

bail on success is such an interesting question. Like, I mean, obviously, the simple metric could be monetary success. And so in that sense, a limited number of being very successful, those of how which may've made. But why fun is more than by doing this, by going through this process and learning lots of different aspects of business and learning what I can do, what I can do, and learning lots of different problems, how to come them, to overcome them, you become a much more well rounded individual, and of each project bills on the last.

And so where I am now with Cliff clifton wouldn't exist if I didn't have one of my previous businesses and which was um we created the world's largest um I was an innovation laboratory for pin tec. It's cold rise have been doing in every ten years now. It's in partnership with the bio box list and that has been a for Normally successful project globally is the biggest world.

We've in seven different countries have been an amazing asset to the bank, has been a really valuable things to do. And that helped do this. In fact, I wouldn't have come without difficult I without that.

But that business came out of another business I did in the U. K, which was a coin business. I would never thought would have happened.

But I basically created the first coworking business in the U. K. Google at the time wanted to do something called google entrepreneurs, and they wanted to create something called google campus.

There wasn't anything called google campus, but then and then they came to me ask for our helping cranes being called google campus, which we then as as my then coin, can we help them design and build? So we we Operate the first of a good campuses, the now all over the world. But because of that then bois Johnson, who's now the promise of the U. K. But at the time was the main of london, his office recommended za web.

Stead of dominoes have fAllen to each other. And the next one for going for says.

all these things we will link back together. Although you wouldn't thought on fer what's .

your background because i'm curious about what kind of person decides to be an entrepreneur shes through you know, dozens of businesses that may or may not succeed monetarily but feels optimistic about going on to the next one. Did you grow up in the entrepreneur family? Did you have friends who are doing this?

Well, IT is so the three I see three things tomorrow. So one of the things is interesting is um there was the university um that was doing a study into the way that business just think and particularly entrepreneurs and so I was part of that study and they did A F M R I sm. So you would lay in the M R I machine and they would be doing things talking to you and then you will be respond.

You be watching real time when you're brain did. And what they found, which is quite interesting and place to what you said, is that the my brain and the brains want for us tend to not here the way to know. And so when when someone says something to an internet r, where the answer should be no, a different part of the brain fires and the best provenance is not like a theoretical thing actually happens and this whole area fires up is like, no, James, this is going to walk out, which is best.

So that's interesting. But to die back into my past. So I am from a small working best town in called hole um is around is about population about I think about five hundred six thousand people now.

But back then I was a little bit less. And my dad, he was an auto electrical, so he worked for himself and he fixed the electric on cars when humans could do that. And my mom was like, I don't know, IT like a bit of whether the SHE would do everything.

He was ahead as her. He used to sell close, used to sell perfumes. And remember, one summer, my sister and I would be SAT up front room, and we'd have three books keep in front of us and my mom to somehow got hold of these plugs.

So the sockets that you have on on the on electrical crisis, and these plugs were illegal. And so we will end stripping them for the part. So we put fuses in one box, brain another box, and he just like, so so my experience of being a child was very much only one.

Prel was one way looking in IT, but IT was as possible in the way to degree was like, if you if you are working class family, you have gone much money. You do whatever you can to make money. And my mom was really good at that.

And so I suppose you, in a sense, that was smart. And then the third thing was, but I grow in of Margaret chest time, and he was really interesting in terms of that, promoting the idea of an individual as a business, a driver. And so particularly, Richard branson was held up as A A symbol of a new economy.

And for me as a child, and I think for the bridge people at large, Richard brand and the vision group was a really exciting, sexy thing. And so there's this way with a beard who was sweden and he's making is doing cool things. And so I aspire to be like Richard branson, m, and fun enough.

I ended up working for him and IT exactly working for him that made me decide I could do this myself. I thought, Richard person, you're great, but I can do this myself. So he was a beautiful casting wise.

I love that there's something that is so real. And this concept of role model, where we're all just like people trying to figure out like, you know who are we in what is our place in the world. And we look at other examples, especially when our kids ds look okay, well, who who else to people respect who else we will look up to.

And when you have these figures for me and the nineteen growing up, I was bill gates um I was a computer erd he was computer erd adults around me and you can grow up and be like the gates, so like oil to be neuer and it's um know I wonder today, you know like they do services of generation z, like the latest group of kids and they're all like looking up to youtube stars and tiktok stars, uh, those are their heroes. You know as much sure there's as many entrepreneurial heroes that as many people who are being propped up as this is somebody you wanted be like the people like mark sacer berg, A J. Bazas, who like from intense purposes like demonized, you know and the new occasion of the elon mux.

But it's it's something in here time and time again, and people can very easy identify, I had this role model growing up, who did this extraordinary thing and who other people respected. And so that's what me on my course. And in the second half of your stories, oh, I found that they were actually human and they're not superhuman.

And i'm a human, so that gave me a lot of confidence. And maybe I can do something similar. You know, I don't have to be the superhuman larger than life person in order to do something similar to be my hero. Did you ever have a point where you thought you were going to just go on the sort of Normal path that you were going to go to school, get a job, work in nine to five, and you not start fifteen companies? I started .

like I actually advertising. So I grow in the eighties. I wanted to be stop worker because in the eighties, that was cool thing to do.

I don't think it's anymore existing more for a job anyway. So I get to do that. And then I want to work in advertising.

Can I love the creative energy of advertising and I love that I again, that's in the early IT, was very much a thing that people was of the sexy industry that has been not so much now I would, I think, and so I wanted to work. So I got my first job and advertising. But I found I, I, I, I found working for all the people that chAllenge.

And IT was through the experience of working in advertising that I got to meet for brand. So one of the companies I worked for, which is a very large, they called only from the one of the biggest media companies in the world, media buying planning agencies, creativity, the world uh or groups. And they had virgin as a client.

And I then got to work on virgin um as there what account age media planner. They were then looking for someone to be a brand director. And I was in my twenty, I was like, I I know the perfect person.

I know perfect person is me 啊。 And I got the job, which is amazing. And so in my only twice, I was working as a brand of reversion.

And again, in my only way, I was a managing retro. All of these virgin companies but interestingly, um IT was a IT was a website. So I was I was called virgin student dot com.

I want a name but in britain is seem to make sense was IT was a precent of facebook. And so back in the day, they used to be a website in the U. S.

Called college club. IT was, again, that was a past the facebook. So before mice space, before face, that there was college problem, that IT IT was the biggest student website in the us.

And back in the day, instead of them going to europe, they license their technology to us. And so we came over a literally with the computer, took back the the technology, reinstalled in some machines o and span up what was then virgin student. So we became the biggest student website on U.

K. Ten years before facebook existed. And so but I was I was so funny time because the band was just was in there.

So we had functionality, ty, that you would expect A A community website to have. But people couldn't really use IT just because there wasn't the man with there to to. I upload videos, watch me. I mean, we just but IT was definitely ahead of his time, and he was really interesting foreign, that world, and told me the almost amount about a working in b unit that we started was like runa company, just backed by this incredible band, brand and money.

It's funny that you say that you are trouble working for other people, because when you spoke about your time in the F M R I machine in the result of the study, that entrepreneurs reactive fully to the word no. I think the other big things that different is reactivity ly to is maybe it's authority, but maybe it's like something that restricts our freedom.

The idea that we're working for a boss who's telling us here's the creative direction you need to go in and by the way, here's also the people you're onna work with and here's the cap, how much money i'm going to pay you and here's the time you need to comment on the schedule you like why I guy have Better right in this, know if the gud rather be my own boss. And a lot of times, I think for at least entrepreneurs myself, it's not even as this in eight passion in front preter ship, it's almost like an inability to do anything else. So I just not going to be able to get a nine to five job because i'm not onna. Listen and I won't be frustrating doing things .

somebody else where, well, there's a beautiful freedom to IT. I mean, for a long time my d pro al journey was like, I have an anger in the sense that I thought that would be good as meant certain things, things around how much time you d have to commit to something that that, that you have to be all about work and all about life.

And so for a long time, in fact, before I became successful, not my belief system was very old fashion in terms like the sort of work hard, play hard, which I feel like is about old idea now. And that you have to be in early, and you have to strive and you have to throw and and so I would be someone who was was proud of the concept of being a worker lic, and thinking of being a worker lic equals good because of you a work holic. And you're really passion about this is going to work out and IT wasn't until I start to realize through a number of interventions that I had from either people.

I was weird people that I met, all people that I brought to self support me in my journey. But that was just a total nonsense. And I actually the true freedom, and I think the entrepreneurs ery can give you true freedom.

True freedom is the ability to use your skills to create maximum leverage. And that doesn't mean to say that you have to work long hours all the time. You could have a moment of insight that could be transformative, that taste two minutes doesn't I don't need to get at seven day and to start work at day and works on every day and night to get good outcomes.

That's not true. And so I found that over less than seven to ten years I ve just got more freedom. So I am much more free as a person. And I think that freedom I value when I relish.

So I mean, last week I was in turkey h on next two days tomorrow, going to miami the week after that and go to new york the week after that, going to wash the the week after after that going to mexia. I mean, maxo right now. And i've realized that actually I can have a wonderful life and create incredible outcomes.

And though obviously the fact that in the way one, the greatest things that came out, coffee was an acceptance that physical presence is no longer required to do business. And I think that's a beautiful moment in our evolution that up until coit, if I wants to get a client who was based in saper cco, I D have to get on a plane to some cisco, and they would expect me to do that, and I would expect to do that. And if I said I actually know i'm not doing that, would do a video call.

IT was a lesser engagement. Now I can, I can be starting turkey, and you can be starting. Something is going, yes, IT may be very late in the evening for me, but we can have a sales call and you will be as happy to have that call. And I see I enjoy the that i'm in turkey, rather in turkey.

And it's not because it's all just sort of these social cultural norms like you are saying. People were just expect like this guy must must not be serious if he's not flying over here because I see how things are done, not because it's logical, not because it's a reason, not because technology or the deal requires IT, because this is how things are done.

And it's very rare that anything happens that like a global scale that causes this sort of mass cultural shift. We all agree to change the rules. Unfortunately for this situation that we change the rules for something for the Better for OK. Actually IT doesn't matter where people are and is tremendously more convenient.

I think it's also creating tremendous y more business opportunities because of everybody's doing work remotely that a gigantic well of new problems I need to be solved, new solutions I can help things um I think parcelled more movie increase, ed, the wheel of this new interactions. I'm right there with you. I think it's great. I want to like all of these businesses that you started, and we don't have time to go through all fourteenth, and maybe we will do your first business and your most successful business.

And cleaned as was what was the very .

first place is he started a bit.

really. But my first actual business I had was when I was again, I said my family was not necessarily entrepreneurs, the things that we're were trying to make money for theves as a kid, I had to work and going do stuff not not like working down the minds. But I was basically, he was Normal to have a job IT was my pocket money came from me working, and but also I was encouraged to be supposed to do my own thing.

And so I actually had my first ever business selling eggs daughter door, which is very weird. IT was cleverly called jay ex, get IT. And so and so I I started this business, and I A farmer would deliver eggs to my house, something very mind.

I lived in the city and farm the were farms deliver eggs to my house on a friday night. I would sit packing eggs into boxes, some of which had the brilliant jay ex. Brandon um and then I would go out door to door selling actually me IT was the most random thing in the world, but the one will say that is door to doll sales.

I mean, I jehovah witnesses have to be some of the best sales people on earth, them in the moments, if you can learn to sell door to door, you can sell anything to anyone. Because you learn how to take rejection, you learn how to um and not be affected by this, you learn how to project yourself, you learn how to read someone, you learn all these incredible ble skills. So I I was fortunate that I got to do that as a kid.

And obviously a kid you ve got like a kid's on your site is not quite as chAllenging witness. That's my thing. You should go to do that because that's the best sales job in the world.

If you can do that, you are a genius and you should be sales for google. But my first proper fail job, which wasn't that, was so when I was working virgins, I said we had this brilliant business, which was a precursor, facebook, to let ten years do early. And IT didn't work.

IT was a failure because the other thing that was hilarious was we would try to sell advertising space on our website to brands. And so we are virgin. And so we go to, I know, let's say, A T N T.

So hey, guys, you want to promote your cell phones where mobile we go. American, hey, guys, what? Yeah IT was a disaster because everyone we competed with, everybody, specially in the U.

K. Where they're more prevalent there. I mean, as virgin games, as virgin active, as virgin White, you name IT there in a city.

So everyone we went to see, like, yeah, sling at me, all the we are spying on them would be the of a competence of one of the room and these spies. How does anyway? But because I didn't work the first time, the time that I was imagine to the company.

And so I I went into the office, look, guys, this is not a work. What could work is if we make everyone redundant, including me and the I take over this business and you instead become my client. And so I convinced virgin mobile, who'd been very supportive of that project, to, instead of basic, working with this virgin company, to work with me and my own company, to do the same work for them.

So we became not so much of a website, but we actually ended in this area of, like experiential marketing, so creating brand experiences. And this is back in I was like two thousand, but as a quite long time, creating brand experiences where we would engage was a fresh client, and I got them to pay as a year in advance so that we could cash for the business. So I took six in the people.

We all got damant. I took my redone cy money. I took my the the year in advanced money for virgin, which to be there was an amazing gift, like they did not have to do that. And then we start the business and then we start when clients we went like ea, we would like jack Daniel, we would like x, we want some amazing brands. And we became a really phenomenal experiences back in the day.

And what did you learn from this experience? So you took with you because obviously, you set that post down or you sold that something happened. You sold.

moved on thers. I think I think I arn, what I learned is, and you can make money on anything, anything. And I think that's what's really fasting, but people are always looking for the idea. And I think that that's a nonsense. I don't think there is the idea of the perfect idea or whatever a lot of people like stop themselves going in general because they waiting for the perfect.

And I think the reality is there is money to made in any sector and anything in things that people would think would be possible thing, like people still are making money right now on foreign currency transactions. Like how is that even possible? How is that even a thing? But IT is a business.

I know someone who started john covered a foreign currency business in south america, and he's making money turn over a million dollars last year, and he's making money like that. Sounds like a crazy visit. End of these days.

You got transferred wise. You've got all these spin text, what earth is going on? And the reality is there is money everywhere.

You just have to put your money and understand what are you bring to the party. So that's the first island. So he wasn't I was incurred ly passionate about experimental marketing.

In fact, the word experience marketing when I said that business didn't exist, IT was more that I saw there was a simple transaction opportunity that I could be engaged with that was a creative space that I could play, where I could create things for, things that I like to change brands. I like brands. I like supporting brands.

And I could see that we could create something for a brand and that we could reminisce that. And there is a business in that and that. I think this is one of main lessons.

I think the other thing is, is just exposed. It's like keeping on the path again. I seeing when you need to make changes are not being too stuck in your ways.

I think, again, one of the biggest failures that an entrepreneur can realize would be when they think that they're right all the time and they are not wanted to change. And the reality is everything is super valuable and there is no truth like there is definitively no truth, there is definitively no black and White, there is definitively no answers. Just like something isn't really definitely be Better than anything else that just doesn't seem to exist in in the real world.

It's just our perception. And so knowing that that's the case, if you get too ready to something that you think is a truth, you can bomb your business very quickly because the market is not responding to this idea. Listen to the bloody market.

And if you think about so without clear fines are good. So when we first started, we thought clarifying about finding new tools. So we thought that people use this data set to help them match with the tools instead of going to world and what do I need of no idea.

And going on sites like g two crowd, which is just absolute as flowers bollox because it's basically it's it's reviews. It's five star, four star, three views. Think about this. You're in your hometown wherever you live on your favorite city, and you are looking for a great restaurant recommendation.

And you going to yell where you go to, google this and you say, right, I am going to go to the best restaurant this town and I, anna, find IT because I want to get the place that has the most five stars. And then you turn up mcDonald's, hurry, because that what has the most far self easing the best restaurant to me? No, right.

But does he have the most five star views? absolutely. And that's the problem with all these Y G. Two grade. He tells you absolute shit.

Like if A A farmer in minnesota thinks the software stars and your sea of coca cola, how is that useful? How is that useful? Yeah, but that is the way that world is.

what? And so we thought, that is such nonsense. How can that be true? What if, instead of this nonsense, we will not say, no, look at this, look at this, look at this.

Look at this. In basic, set, your advertising, which is what they do. We will tell you what to buy.

We will actually give you an answer to the question, what's the right software to me? Like black way of big? Like no.

Is this bias, simple, total and bias? And so we started life there. But the the interesting is the paradigm is that people are happy with this crappy experience of getting five star views.

They like IT. And so people like, well, I can go to g two, go and i'll get five is I know is shit, but is quick yeah is quick. But IT is also shit. And so and this also means that patients, people who just were not that bullet.

And so IT wasn't until we sort of saw that and heard that and our clients was, yeah, I do what to use you, but that we realize that what we need do to turn the on his head. And so what we then in is we said, oh, my godness, we have this incredible understanding of software at a feature level. What can you do with that apart from help match you? And the thing you can do, which is quite incredible, is you can look at the entirety of someones software that they've bought for their company and tell them what software they need to remove. Because all the features that software are duplicated with still the tall and when the only can do that, the only of the way that would be to bring in my so so that is where we ended up. And that's hopefully and the question.

yeah, yeah, I love you and I love that ties into your learnings earlier businesses, which was there are two of them, but they're in essence two sides of the same coin. The first was you can make money doing anything. And the second is you ve got to be selling to be proven wrong by the market.

You can be sort of buller hated and say whatever I think is true and keep forging in the area, you're not going to make money. And I know a lot of people who are really good at recognizing that first points they were going into any market. They will start anything, think of the worst idea on earth and be confident they can eventually make money.

Because i'll look around and say, what are the problems of people actually value and then pay for what they are doing and eventually get toward the money is. And like, that's what you've done. We're clarifying beautifully where essentially built this technology.

And I just summarising so you don't like so the lesson isn't lost on people because I think a lot of people are in the situation where they like. What i'm doing isn't working. People aren't not my order to get IT not paying me for that.

I wish you was say it's cool but when push comes to shove, it's not working and I mean what you did was you said, okay um this problem that you thought people had, which is that like A G two sex alternative sex turns out not to be it's not act doesn't actually suck for people's as much as you thought they would suck or should suck but there is another problem that people have that is liable to them that you can help of, which is they are waiting billions of dollars a year on software. And I have this problem too in the hackers. It's like i've got my budget strike.

We buy lot of software. Some of them are probably not using and could easily be replace. And like I need to manage my budget.

I want to be able to spend IT efficiently. Who doesn't want to save money? Everybody wants to save money. And like that, is you doing exactly?

You set the point number one, finding out where the money is in the space and then sort of hivites your product to offer something of value because of people to pay money for IT. That means people find IT died. You want throw away their money for no reason.

And so I love that you so clearly demonstrate an example of how do you go into a space potentially guess wrong, but then still figure out you know how to land. These bigger customers are going to be paying huge contracts because you are solving you a problem for them. So I got to ask, how does you get three million dollars to invest in your own business? Not everybody is that kind of money to put into a business.

There's definitely a culture which I I don't love where being entrepreneur isn't in any way correlated to making money successfully. It's more about, I think, being free and and working yourself. To me, those things are different.

I think you can be free work for yourself and have a nice lifestyle. You can be free in work for yourself and get by, or you can be free and work for yourself and struggle. But to me, to be entrepreneur is to create something. The in turn is actually successful. And so.

I've been on a mission to do that, to realize the value that are not just working in order to survive, but that I am working to use my assets to create a disproportion leverage so that I am more free than I would have been. So, not so tied down to anything really, because I am able to create a successful, real journey. Who, what are unable to a mess.

Wealth, in a way, in a conventional side. Part of society is that we do still have go to work. We do such a money and that we still work in a world where more money is perceived to be a good thing, and so that someone who makes ten million year is more successful than someone who makes two million year is more successful than someone who make.

I'm not sure that the way that the world should work, but i've played that game for a while and been quite good at playing me. Not as good as jeff bays. He seems other people, but and everything that interested in, like you can set your sights and different things.

So for a long time, I have had this goal of of of generating hundred million dollars and seeking, if I had hundred million dollars, that would be a desent successful career. And which is interesting because obviously the most people, that might be insane. And for some people, that's not a lot of money, which I think is really interesting. Like for some people who who have less money in that would still .

say that not money is an interesting thing in that like not everything else, such a wide range like you can't be five times toilet than somebody. You can be ten times somebody than somebody, but you can be literally a billion times richer than body. Like, there is almost no and in like to how much more.

And so, like I ve had, the same sort of phenomenon was like, i've been more successful. I hunger around people who are even more successful than I ever knew, because I grew up like a very ddd class. And like the suburbs of georgia know. Or if you had had a job paying you one hundred grand a year, you were like bAllen and you were on top of society. And now I know people who like, as you're saying, who laugh at one hundred million liars, really god, that's cute, you know and that's instated to me and of those who will look, have people who who laugh at them yeah.

I think that's all the interest about living in new york. So I moved from london. So london of capital city, obviously a little bit screw up now by the stupidity of leaving europe, but that's another stop topic.

But london is a place where you would expect IT to be a high performance, very competitive, all these things you're expect in some capital cities. But then when I moved in new york, I refrained the concept of wealth. For me, if you're millions in new york, your sort of poor, which is sounds like a stupid thing to say.

But if you make many of you not well off in the k which in any of the city in the world, that doesn't make any sense, but in your that sort of makes sense because IT is a city bill on the idea that money is the the most important thing anyone can achieve in life and that you never got enough of IT. Even if you think you have, you definitely have. And so that was really interesting framing for me. Moving to new york, can seeing that very different view of what what wealth looks like?

Yeah, program is a good article about the things called cities and ambition and he he tells you about the different things that like the different messages of different cities send because almost every city attracts and bitish people but they attract you for different reasons yeah and so he says, like new york tells you ove all, you should make more money. That's the message you constantly get.

And yark boston tells you you should be smarter, right? MIT is here. Harvard is here. Like, you need to like, my friends and boston are getting like M, D, P, P, H, D. They never feel like it's enough, right, because it's like you are not dentist enough, you not successful.

And so I think it's very in a way we can control indirectly what we're gona strive for in life by controlling who we surround ourselves with, in part by controlling which cities that we live in because these cities are going to feed as these messages, and it's very easy accent them to IT. But I don't I don't want to be too far off topic, and I will run to clarified which is the business. Sure, on this day, which is very cool, you went through this long period of time where you're funding the business with your you're bank ruling in yourself, you're boot strapping IT.

You're not raising money for mental capital saying i'm going to do this myself. Is that because you didn't think that IT was possible for you to break into the VC networks? Imagine earlier that they might not like.

There's a couple of things I think up until this business, I haven't ever ability extension funding. So like every other business i've done, I found a way to not ask if anyone is money pretty much and that this gives you an anonymous ounce of freedom. But the other thing about is also IT creates a seeing on the game you can play.

So one of the reasons in twenty and seventeen, I moved to new york because because I thought I wanted to go to attack business. I want to, I wanted to play the game of of V, C. And so I want you to go with an idea that would be interesting to that audience, because I could see that I said, I mean, americans always been wonderful at creating fono global brands, and it's also been wonderful at creating the phenomenon of venture up already and leverage night away.

They know the market really has still and then and having this transfer value where the game is effective, can use the people like to do the work clean on to an evaluation to make IT worthwhile. And I always think that, in my mind, is like a chart that just has a simple line on IT, which is basically like how much money would you have made if you have not got VC money? And where do I interact with A V C.

Money piece? And so you're always trying to race. If you go to V, C, money, you'll racing against the at that moment so that you end up a Better off having spent five to ten years working for them and yourself.

Then you wonder if you spent the same five, ten years doing yourself. And so if you spent ten years on a business and you could get IT to turn over ten or twenty million, then you've got business potentially worth a hundred million less, say, and you own all of IT. Or you can go to vcs and you will try and get to a business.

Business worth a billion does. But will you are on one hundred millions worth of IT at the end? And that, for me, has been the reason i've been to retest.

And so the reason i've self funded up until now has been because I wanted to make sure that the inflection point that we brought in the funding was suffers iena high, that I knew that I was getting leverage that was beyond the leverage. I would have got my funny myself. And what's been really fascinating as i've gone down this path is to see that it's like the art world.

If you know anything about the world, and I know very little, you don't, you don't become an artist that sold in galleries unless you went on certain path. You have to go to the certain school. You have to have a certain agent, and then you get into the certain gallery and then you get into the sea.

He is a rigging game. And if you are the best sites in the world, but you don't play by the rules, you will not break into IT. And IT is exactly same with B, C.

It's completely your reg game. So they don't want you to break the rules. They like the rules as they are. And so in a way for to work what you have to do, they are fuck. They still wanna bit get there by the Cherry.

As if I haven't put three million dogs in because the game doesn't work when you put in your own money like that, that's not how you play. And so I think if anything, and this is what I was saying, if you are out there thing about sending around business, go and get them. If you wanna play the VC game, play on the start.

Because the only way to play is why things like why company they are the perfect example, it's a rigging game on the start. You go to them, they take a percentage, but because you went to them and they then you get invest from these people. IT is a completely rid game.

You do not have to have a good product to do that. You have to play the game. And if you can play the game and you go through that channel, you will pretend you do Better than someone who has got a Better product, who didn't play that game.

And and so is I think it's is important that people understand that that's all IT is is a totally different game that you could lose as well as like anything. And you have to be cogent of IT what i've always sent to my I said to the guys, and when I start at this one, i'm going to play the game from the start with their money because I wanted to see what happens. And this should be interesting to play that game different way.

interesting. I am A V C as well. So so partner in my end fund with some really fab ous guys we invest in fin take and I so great to be able to be in the position of both liking and loading myself um in that role.

And I think and I think there is a need for a change in the industry. I don't know what I will come to the index fuck right now. IT doesn't make any sense and and most people lose for IT.

But the way is good. IT doesn't. IT doesn't long term make sense. Yes, I will make a lot of money, but the whole thing slightly secured in the wrong way, and I don't think incentivize that the right behaviors of this stands.

I could talk you about VC forever. We like ten meters life. So let's suck about your company because well, let me asked you have more question of being a VC, which is do you think that as a VC, you wouldn't invest somebody in your position who's put a lot of money into their company if you see that the numbers are there, that they're growing rapidly, that there is a market that they have an opportunity to get really .

big interest is I suppose my in my navy, I spent as as entrepreneur am a wristy taker in a sense. The end of thing is, I think entrepreneurs perceive is differently. I don't think entrepreneurs enter into ventures that they perceive to be high risk, but from the outside, their activities look high.

Rest like you was surprised I put through many of my money into the bins because that seemed like a risk, to me, doesn't feel like a risk. And that's where our perception, the same exact thing, very different. But what I ve really disappointed in is the actual repressed hold of this is very low.

They basic, want you to be already winning, be on the way to an animation market, have all these customers, then the money, if you do that, I don't need you fucking money at that point. I go to a bank. And but that sort of what they want to do, and I think that is so interesting. Could I assume that venture capital was more of adventure and is most all like he is more like just it's funny because all most of the best don't work out. But the current matrix for what success looks like a very simply list. C, I mean, just like, well, look, if someone's doing these things, that must be good, and that's the metric that we will judge them by instead of saying if we put our investment here, we can push these guys into this position, which will mean that they will lend fully this potential and will look, you need to fill the potential before, which is very interesting.

Yeah, that's the risk. That's what the rise comes in. So we're clear find obviously put on all this money and you're confident how do you deploy that money for three million dollars the company?

How do you ensure that you're spending on the right things? How much is that goes to engineering? How much of that, that goes to advertising our marketing? You know only do you deplore that in stages, you do an MVP what look like .

with clarified? Yeah, I think the answer there is, you can never know if you do the right things. You can never know except in how insight if the decision made with the right decisions is impossible, so that you ve got to get our heads away, because if you go on that party or just not do anything.

And so what we have done is we basic deployed that over the course of two thousand years is not been massive. Dump of cash is being over the cost. And it's basic finding things that we think makes sense and betting on those things a little bit.

And so so if we put more money to this, is he going to do this? So yes, it's been spent engineering. Yes, it's been spent on research, some of its been spent on marketing, some of its been spent on branding. But a lot of IT, it's been spent just finding out how to correct this problems on researching development to help you.

What was the very first thing?

I haven't sly way to pay the business to money, a sense. So the first was my co friend has a salary. So the first thing that we spend money and was my co friend and her salary, and then I had a engineering and his salary. And again, they are both below market because the nature, the venture, but that was the first thing we started to spend money on.

And it's based spending money on talent is the key to to really get this is a small business, and I think not spending money as much as possible, specially the early stages on third parties, external companies because lots of there's a whole industry that set up around taking money off small couples and start up to try and help them, but not all of them most even though they are intention to good. I'm not sure that, that, that money is best deployed with those. Those parties is probably Better to spend on the international talent who have a real best interest in real passion about the project, then spend IT on third parties who for you for them, you are a contract, the yeah and you .

have a be sort of path where in the beginning was mostly about figurin IT how to solve this problem. So let's building the right software that you think is going to solve the right problem and then actually trying to sell to customers, discovering that they don't care about that problem. And then where do you go from here? You two things you need to do basically build different software that's going to solve a different problem.

Then also like you know, identify with that problem makes and try to see if people are gonna IT. How did you do that second part? Because I think most people listening don't have them with trouble building.

Like most of us are builders. We could put things together even if it's like sloppy and crabby, you'll figure IT out. But like how you take IT to customers to be, like, would you pay for this?

What happens? To give the real world example, we'd have this experience where we try to go to market. And we brought on this board of these main advisers, and they were all like from top, top, top companies.

And they were all like working with us on the development of the search product. And so, so funny, they ended that process that none of them brought to you going to create what the fuck. But anyway, you know, it's amazing.

It's we always fantastic. And yeah he could not buy IT. But then we died to see signals. And we were very, very, very fortunate to have started a dialogue with one of the biggest tech campus in the world and come across an insightful individual that campaign who loved what we would ing and had been talking to us about the search thing.

But IT was that individual in a meeting in the september where they have a look, the same thing we like. But what about this? You've got this amazing data on features. Surely you can look at what i've already bore and tell me what to do with that. We and we left the me do we told, ignore him.

And then when we started to struggle, which was a few weeks later, we like, what was what the guys say that mean? Jerry said, I something about just date different IT. And then we like, oh, my god.

So we then sort for this, we've spend so much money get to where we are, we need to get on and do this. And so we had A A manager meeting, let's say, eleven A M and I had a sales call about the old product at one. And I just have no only going that sales call and sell him this new idea.

I need to do this. So I gone the call and I look, i've got we'd this thing to say, but how would you feel if, instead of basically just telling you what you suffer you could get, we could look at all the software you hand and tell you what you need to keep removing? I love ideas is great.

Give me a week and then come back to you. So weekend went back to him with some White friends. This is what I looks like.

He, great. And then a week there i'm actually, again. So this is a poet, and he bought IT there in them. And so I just think you don't need anything to sound someone on something. Now obviously, to close that, you may need something, but to get them to the point where they can out of get into your head and understand what you're say, you don't need even a working product. You need just the idea of how will work and the conference is i'm standing to express that someone.

So if you could go back in time, like how would you prevent, you know that that period of time when you didn't know what people wanted, would you have asked different .

questions to your customers? You have to do in deep work with this like advisory board of people. All these come IT for months. IT wasn't like we did IT for a we did every week for months. I've been there there.

That's why I ask a question like i'm pretty sure i'm doing the right things. I think i'm talking to my clusters. I think that i'm building something they're gonna pay for.

And then been I think I think is probably the two things I think I really point like one is not to hold onto ideas too tightly. I think we'd got very even though I said everyone conversion that you shouldn't, I think I got quite ready to decided that I was so Better than my my g two cloud existence was so potent that I think he drove a passion in our solution that was disproportionate to that of our customer.

And on the other side, I think you have to be like always listening. I think it's easy for people to say listening. And what people know we think of is listening is just like being quite a bit while the person speaking, what's lonely happening is that your thinking is, oh, well, what I see I need to make him about this or I see something what you said they're me make about and oh, I see what for lunch and you just not actually fucking listening.

Yes, you're not talking, but you're not listening. And when you listen, you hear things, I know that a tribe thing to say, I don't mean IT in a trip way. I mean, you can be struck by insight inside the conversation, either in the words explicit or implied, by the way, talking that can then help you.

So we literally had a client tell us what to do, and we ignored them because we were willing to listen to literally and weeks, weeks past before we realized what they said because we were not there. We were there to sell them at all. We were not there to hear them improve at all.

We were not there to hear new ideas about all. We were there to sell at all. And so I think the thing that I would do differently, and I know that I knew IT before I just forgot, was actually fucking listen to people when I it's .

simple to listen, but it's not easy. This is a simple idea. It's not easy execute.

So where do you go from here? You you're raising money. Uh, you want to make this bigger.

How does IT bigger? You just ramp up sales and you have the rest of the best product. And how do you even do that? Because you're selling something that he is. No one doesn't exist. No one's ever bought software .

that's going to tell them what is very fortunate that we have because we are a small sales team. You're looking and again, I always find the leverage and I think he comes from having real businesses that make money. Again, this is no disrespect.

C but most of businesses have to make money. I'm used to business that actually money. And so I i've been someone who, through that experience has learned a lot about how to make a little Better money, go a long way.

And I think those skills are invaluable in many ways. They're very different skills from V, C, about businesses. They don't look at things in a similar way.

But what is meant is i've tried to leverage, so i'm one person, I can only reach so many people. So how can I help play, find, reach more people? Will child partners? Child partners aren't typically a VC solution.

This is not love. Child partners v is like you together and sell all individual people. One, they d rather you sell to a hundred thousand people for a dollar, then sell a one person.

So in one hundred thousand thousand, that's just not the way they think of in the world. I get IT, but child partners are incredibly potent tool if you get the right. I see as V, C.

But businesses grow, they end up going to tell partner because is the way you actually grow, but they don't always start there. But with clear find, we've started there. And so we are very fortunate to have an exclusive arrangement, which is soon to be lost in the media.

I casso is with with one of the world's largest reasons of software, and we are now using their incredible brand and sales team to get in the client that we would have taken a long time the end to. We have another relationship with a leading like top five consulting firm, and those guys are using our platform to talk to their customers. So suddenly, this little man here has now got a multiple strong sales organization behind them. And so we are going to probably end the year doing between two and three million doll of revenue this year even though we started selling last year. So for any company VC back or not to go for no sales to three million dollars in less than five months is really good, thanks to a child strategy, which is the company antithesis of the way you with you see money.

Yeah yeah ah oh maybe i'll close on this question that so use one super pressure doing by yourself. Most people listening are an experienced, uh, like you are just one person, but they don't have a team of people around them. And so they have to do everything and you'll do the coding. We'll do you know, all the of Operational stuff and they need to add to the sales and that scared to the hell out a lot of people, how do I sell something to anyone?

I, but you can do that.

and you ve got to be a found do IT on your own. What do you think people listening should should take away from what you've learned? How can they learn how to reach out to partners and have these calls and you know potentially either sell their product or or learn what they're doing wrong the way that you have.

I think, again, the listen thing comes into a lot. It's very easy for people to think that selling is about talking. And I think sellings about listening. If you really want to sell to someone, then you have to hear them. You have to let them speak about their problems, let them share with you their pain points, let them express where they see you fit into their current row map strategy day and give them the chance to talk to you.

Because I think people think that you go into a cells call and you break your deck or whatever the hell, you break your demo and you just talk at someone the most successful cells calls i've ever had, a way you say very little and you get them to tell you what's go on in their world and why is useful. Because the other things, things like one of the nice questions you can ask the top of call is given that everyone is busy, I don't think anyone goes to work is like, I ve got a lot of time today, what should I do? Well, decent demos, not where the world works.

So they've made a time in their day to see you. So something you said in your email, in your whatever resonated with them. And what I like to start with saying them, look, be honest, like, hey, you're busy, you've got a lot going on your world.

Why do you make the time to see me today? Let them tell you that. And that then is the beautiful hook into their pain point.

Because forever reason, something resonates in something. You set them and they made time in the diary. And if you are now just willing to listen, they will tell you how to close them.

M slave eld, thanks so much for come on in the hacker. Share your story, share your wonderful advice of lessons. Can you let listeners ers know where they can go to find out more about what's rock to you and about what's going on with clear find?

definitely. So James, actually find out. Come, or just find on linked in. I think it's just James lyf eld.

right? Thanks again, James.

Thank you.