Super Soul Special: India.Arie, Part 1: Why She Walked Away from Music
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Are you still quoting 30-year-old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now. It pays to discover. Learn more at discover.com slash credit card based on the February 2024 Nelson report.

My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.

I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast.

I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time. Taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. She's a singer, a songwriter, a poet. The world knows her as the Grammy award-winning India Ari.

- Born in Denver, her mother was a Motown singer, her father, a former NBA player.

At 25, she released her multi-platinum debut album, Acoustic Soul, earning seven Grammy nominations, putting her on the map as a new kind of singer-songwriter with soul-stirring lyrics centered on self-empowerment. India continued to make music with hit songs like I Am Not My Hair, sparking cultural conversations. But despite all of the outward success, India says inside she still felt a yearning for something more.

Feeling torn between the demands of the music business and her own personal desire to express what was in her soul, she says she hit rock bottom, falling apart mentally and physically. In 2009, India Ari announced she was retiring from the music business to clear her head and get centered. She went into seclusion and focused on rediscovering her joy by making music for herself,

no longer being concerned about pleasing anybody else. She eventually had a spiritual breakthrough and began the journey back to herself. So welcome to Supercell Sunday. Thank you. I'm overjoyed to be here. As we're walking in, you were saying that this is your favorite show on OWN. No, I said this is my favorite show on television. On television. Okay, I get that. Oh, I hear that differently. Good. It is. Yeah. And why is it your favorite show on television?

it has the conversation that I'm always having. There's nothing on television that

talks about the books I love to read, that has the same conversation as the books that I love to read. There's nothing like it on television. So every Sunday morning, I watch Super Soul Sunday. I thank you for that. Yes, I thank you for that. Well, it's so interesting because I came to know you through the song and video, and these are the lyrics that resonated with me and millions of others.

I'm not the average girl from your video and I ain't built like a supermodel, but I learned to love myself unconditionally because I am a queen. Now, looking back, those are the words. Looking back, you were 24 years old at the time you wrote that song. Mm-hmm.

Were you living that space? Because, I mean, when I look at my journals, I have my journals from when I was 15, 18, 19, 24. 24, I was not feeling like a queen at all. Were you able to fully live that message or was that the message you wanted to live? I wasn't able to fully live the message, but it wasn't my intention to make anyone believe that I was living it. It was a musical affirmation. I just wanted to live.

affirm that, you know, and I was talking to myself and I had no idea that it was going to resonate like that with people. I had no idea that any of this was going to happen. So interesting. So when you say I learned to love myself unconditionally because I am a queen, that was an affirmation for you. You are reaching for that. I'm reaching for that. Yeah.

But to affirm that for yourself, it means somewhere inside yourself, you know it to be true. And that's what I was going to say. I knew that I had that in me. Yeah. I just was growing into it. At the time, I came in thinking like, you know, thinking the sky's the limit and I can do whatever is put on my heart to do because it's put on my heart to do.

But then I had this experience at the Grammys. The first year I went to the Grammys, I was nominated for seven and it was really out of the blue because I hadn't sold that. I had sold maybe 800,000 albums and I got nominated for seven Grammys. Whoa. And so the show came and I lost all of them.

And it was this big conversation forever, all over the radio for years, years. But, you know, for the first two months, it was all over the radio. And why? And how could she, you know. Be nominated for seven Grammys and not win one. And it ended up being called a shutout. Yeah. And so a couple of times in a couple of rap songs, I've heard people refer to it as the India Ari. What if you get India Ari at the Grammys? Like it's this thing. And I realized two things about that now. One is that that really was God's way of.

giving me a breakthrough because I was on everybody's lips all of a sudden because I lost. But everybody was still talking about me. They had so much love for me and compassion about me. Then my album sales shot up. But all I felt was maybe I'm not meant to have all of that. Maybe I didn't deserve it. Maybe I didn't.

It didn't feel like, well, yeah, maybe I didn't deserve. At the time, it didn't feel like deserve. It just felt like maybe that's just not how I'm built. Maybe I wasn't built for that. You know, I wasn't the prom queen. I wasn't the this. I wasn't. Why would everybody want to give me all these? Why would I win winning seven Grammys? That sounds nuts. Like it doesn't even sound like something that would be my life. And all that self-talk. But I also underneath all that, in hindsight, I realize now that.

I was scared of failing and I was scared of succeeding. And I just wanted to just be in a safe space and not grow too big or be too little. I just wanted to just stay. When I first got those Grammy nominations, I had chest pains. I was having chest pains when I really should have been celebrating and enjoying. And Stevie Wonder called, right? I remember I was laying in the bed in my hotel and I just started to pull the blanket over my head in the daytime. And I was just going to pull the blanket over my head.

And Stevie Wonder called and he said, this is great. What's happening for you? Are you excited? This is before the show. This is the nomination day. Are you excited? I just think this is wonderful. So many people are going to hear your music and, you know, the whole thing. And I was like, well, yeah, yeah, I guess it is good. I'll call you back. I just felt so I couldn't take it in. And what did you do the night? What did you do the night the Grammys are over?

Everybody's going to the after-Grammys parties, and you've lost all seven. I went to a party, briefly. And then I went to my hotel room and wrote in my journal. Did you cry? And I talked to my mom. Were you upset? I was upset. I was hurt. But one of the things that I've worked my way out of doing, and I knew that I needed to, was comparing myself to other people. That is...

It just poisons everything. Then all of a sudden, even the clothes you choose to wear that day or what you're going to do with the music production or how you're going to sequence it, it poisons everything. Because, I mean, your real job in the world is to be you. Comparing yourself to other people just, I think that hurt me more than anything. And I, you know,

That hurt you or you hurt you by doing that? I mean, allowing myself to go there so much in my head hurt me. Yeah. But isn't it what hurts everybody? Whether you're a store clerk...

Comparing yourself to other people. A lawyer, a teacher, a mom. Very human experience. Yeah. You have been away from the spotlight for a while. And you're saying you are surprised even that you're not just sitting in this chair, but that you're here, here. Because you thought you were going to leave the industry? Yeah. I did. In my heart, I left. And there's several months where I was retired. And I was just... How are you going to retire from music? Because music is you.

Well, I didn't say I wouldn't sing. Yeah. I just decided I wasn't going to do the music industry. Yeah. I feel like I'm always going to sing and write songs because it's me. But I never felt like I had to be in the music industry. But I understand now that it's the vehicle for my message. And, you know. Right. The more people you reach, the more people you reach. Right. And one of my.

One of my constant mission statements that I say to myself, when I'm writing songs, I say, let this touch whoever is meant to be touched by it in whatever way they are meant to be touched. But at the time, I was just so hurt by what I perceived as assaulting my sense of harmony and my sense of ethics. Like the way people did business, it just insulted me. And I just thought, if it's going to be like that, I'm not doing it. And I moved to a little island and just was...

staring at the water and sleeping. And I took the time to write out the story to myself of my whole last 10 years. And I just, every day would just be writing, drinking coconut water, watching the water. And a couple months into that, my prayer was answered because I prayed for clarity. And my prayer was answered. And the answer was,

That I don't need to leave the music industry. I need to take the chance to do it how I want to do it. Because I never did. I was doing what other people wanted me to do. Not musically, but everything else. Navigating the big picture of my life and my career because they were so intertwined. Navigating the big picture of my life. I was doing what everybody else wanted me to do. And after years of that, I was just, my health had started to be imbalanced.

physically and just emotionally, I was just completely imbalanced. And I thought my well-being is worth it.

you know, more than this. Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to discover. Learn more at discover.com slash credit card based on the February, 2024 Nelson report.

My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.

My friend's still laughing at me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin.com slash results to claim your credit. That's linkedin.com slash results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn, the place to be, to be.

Okay, explain a little bit about emotional imbalance, physical imbalance, because I think so often people don't recognize that all of the external stress and internal stress, it really affects the way you, it affects everything. It affects your being, your body. I have a song about this that

all physical ailment starts in your spiritual and emotional body. It starts there. And then you start having an ulcer and then you start having throat issues and then you start having skin issues. It starts, you know, in your energetic body. But I have a friend, one of my oldest friends, he calls me sunshine. And it was a joke because I was so moody. He still, he calls me that to this day. And I just, it looked like I was moody, but really what it was is

I didn't have a foundation of well-being. I just didn't like my default setting. I just didn't feel good all the time, all the time. I feel like I was always recovering from some sort of battle, like always recovering, always like a constant state. It makes me laugh now because I just can't imagine living like that. I was in a constant state of recovery and it just made me feel and I was tired and

All the time. I mean, just 100%. I was always tired. And I used to think, you know, I mean, it's just how it is. And that's because you were emotionally, spiritually off balance. I loved you saying your default line. Yeah. I just, I was, and you know,

You were out of alignment. You were completely and totally out of alignment. That's the word, out of alignment. Because all of life is about lining up. I mean, I certainly know this to be true and that your well-being, your sense of authentic power in the world...

Gary Zukav, is directly proportional to how aligned you are. When you're serving what your soul came here to do and using your personality to serve that, that's when you're in alignment and that's when you're the most powerful. And any

off balance, you know, the degree to which you are off balance is the degree to your unhappiness and your sense of, you know, lack of well-being. And that's where you were completely out of alignment. Yeah. That's where I was. Yeah. And I would say stuff to the people around me like,

No, you don't understand. When I have a dream about something and it's really clear, I need to do that thing. I don't want to have to argue with you about it. Or you don't understand, when I get chills like that, it's what I'm supposed to be doing. I need you to just go with me on this. And they would still be like, what do I have to say to you when I say I feel it in my soul? What do I have to say to make you understand? And that is what scared me because I knew that if I kept living that way,

I would look up 10 years from now and have so many regrets about the person that I was in that moment. And also just the mistakes I had made. I knew I was going to be completely unhealthy on all levels. But you also did you also know because you you you were resisting all of those voices. And I have said this many times, the voices of the world, be it your friends, your mother, your cousin, your boss, whatever.

will drown out the voice of God if you allow it. Drown out is the perfect word. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you end up drowned in it. You end up just drowned in it. And everybody around me was happy for me because I had what they wanted me to have. They were like, she has it. Yeah, you're doing it. Yeah, yeah. Why wouldn't anybody in your shoes be happy? Yeah. Oh, you need to say that again. Everybody around you is happy because I had what they wanted me to have. What they wanted you to have.

A year or so after when I just retired and fired my business team and decided, you know, I was going to take a break. About a year after that, I had an epiphany that I was living the life my mother wanted me to live. Whoa. I had the house she wanted me to have and the exact amount of money in the bank that she said, I want you to have this. I had it. And I was living the life she wanted me to live. And I called her and I told her, I said, that's why, because I'm

I respect my mother to the hilt and I act that way. But when I'm not acting that way, it's because I'm really having an issue. Like when I'm just out of myself. And I called her one day and I said, I want to apologize to you for acting certain ways I acted. We had an argument about something and I said, I want to apologize to you and I want you to realize that the reason why I was acting like that is because I was living the life you wanted me to live and not the life I wanted to live. And she...

Great blessing for me. She understood. It wasn't an argument, but she understood. And we still have conversations where I'm like, I don't want that. You want that, mom.

We still have those, but they're quick now. It's not... That's so interesting. Because I remember, and my family... It's so interesting now, because I remember being that age, and you saying that, it was the first time I thought about it in years. My father said to me, you always want to be in a position where you have at least $10,000 in the bank. My father goes, you need $10,000 in the bank in order to be anywhere in the world. My mom, she would say that same number. Yeah. Really, and she was...

At one point, I was like, "Mom, you realize you're saying this every day, right?" Yeah. And she was like, "Well, I just want..." 'Cause you know, my father was a professional basketball player. And he... Like, that paradigm of the basketball player who has a lot of money and he's very young and then he loses it all? -Yeah. -That was my dad. And so my mother went on that ride with him. And she always says, "Not twice in the same lifetime. I want you to have this amount of money in the bank." But you were living your life for your mother and not for yourself. Living your life for your mother and everybody else. Which I think so many people can relate to.

India and her mother remained close, but their relationship evolved. With newfound independence, India rebuilt her life from the inside out. The way I visualized it was I had built this big building and it was pretty from the outside. It was shiny and pretty and in my mind it was round, like one of those round high rises. But inside it was just stuff all over the place and people just running amok. That's how it showed up in my meditation. And when I decided I was going to tear that building down,

It was because I had this clarity that 10 years from now, I'm going to be in my mid 40s. Yeah. And I can't have that shiny building on the outside. That's a mess inside. It almost makes me want to cry just thinking about it because I knew I didn't know how I was going to do it. I was afraid. I didn't know how to run my business. I was afraid, but I knew that I couldn't keep doing the same thing or I was really going to I was going to be off the path of my destiny. And that's really not that's that's death.

It's not even being alive if you're not doing what you're here to do. I so know that. If you're not doing what you are here to do, it's like-- I call it the walking dead. And you look around and I see, you know, there's this-- obviously, there's a series, The Walking Dead. But the real walking dead are the millions and millions of people who are walking through their lives and they're not on point. They're off purpose. They're off the course.

The Walking Dead. The Walking Dead. Yeah. I called it being a zombie. Yeah. And there's that too. There's the zombies. Just walking around. People just like, put this on. Go over here. Yeah. And I would come alive as much as I could when I got on stage because that's what I live for, to just sing the songs that I write.

But I had this experience one day where I was watching television and I came on. I didn't know it was going to come on. And I looked so sad. And I was talking quiet and I had my head down. I won an award and I was going like this and looking up. And it just made me feel so sad for that girl. And I...

I knew I had to change my life. I knew I had to change my life and I didn't know how I was going to do it. And that was scary. But then that openness, like it was just expansive, like whatever it could, your life could end up being anything. As long as you're honest about the choices you're making, then it became invigorating. And I was just excited about the possibility of having a new life. And I hope that music would be a part of it, but it was not a

Are you still quoting 30-year-old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If it is, what do you think?

If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now. It pays to discover. Learn more at discover.com slash credit card based on the February 2024 Nelson report.

My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friend's still laughing me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin.com slash results to claim your credit. That's linkedin.com slash results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn.com slash results.

LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. Indie Ari is a different kind of artist, often sparking cultural conversation with thought-provoking songs that promote self-confidence and authenticity. In 2007, her single, I Am Not My Hair, included lyrics like, I am not the skin, I am not your expectations, and I'm a soul that lives within. ♪

Its underlying message that we're all so much more than our outward appearances resonated with millions of women all over the world.

I'm Not My Hair is a song that's about dogmatic self-definition. Yeah. And I saw on your master class when you said, I realized that it wasn't about my hair. It wasn't about those things. Because, you know, when people project onto us what they like most about us, then it becomes what we like most about us. Yes. Oh, yes, because I told that story of losing my hair. I mean, I had to absolutely.

lose all of my hair at 22 to understand that I am not my hair. That's when I got it. Then I thought about this, about you the other day. Yeah. Just out of the blue. I think I was cooking. It was out of the blue. And I thought if Oprah, she wasn't skinny enough to be on TV. Yeah. You wouldn't have an Oprah. But those are those things that we do to ourselves, you know, and I had to realize

say to myself, like, I'm not that. I'm not my hair. I'm this. And the message is the same. And my mission and my passions are the same. Regardless of what I look like or what my hair looks like or whether I have hair or hair is wrapped up. Regardless. Yes, yes. Now, this is what's so interesting. Recently, I think on the internet, the people were talking about you lightened your skin or you and you were like, I didn't lighten my skin.

But you're-- What is this about? What was that about? I've had a lot of time to think about it. I have a celebration about that, though. The celebration for me is that coming from that person who was just completely shuttled around and controlled.

The people around me back then would have acted so stressed out about it and gone so crazy that I would have gone crazy. And it would have been this thing. And oh, my God, what are we going to do? And they need everybody needs to like you because that's the unspoken job. You know, you can say that you're a singer or whatever, but your real job is to make everybody like you. Oh, that's so funny. And everybody was, you know, they would have been acting that way. Yes. But when this happened, it didn't touch me. I didn't get shaky in my solar plexus. No, I was just like.

This is wild. And then it started going further and further, and my Twitter timeline had every curse word possible. People were cursing you. And I never... I'm not used to that. The people who have been my fans over the years have been so respectful that I almost feel like, wait a minute, y'all, not all that. But you're saying it didn't affect you as much, as deeply. It did... At first, not at all. I was just excited, really. And then...

When people are cursing you, that feels bad. That is when I started to get upset. And it wasn't about the thing. It was just the fact that you think you could talk to anyone like that. Yes. You know, and I was kind of like, what am I going to do? It was like that. All because people thought you had lightened your skin. Yeah, I still am dumbfounded by that.

It's because the album cover, I mean, I know what good lighting can do. So you look kind of golden-y compared to, let's say, the first album cover. You do. You look golden-y, wouldn't you say? Mm-hmm.

What I wanted was to have gold skin. And if you see, the dress is gold fabric. It's metallic fabric. And the backdrop is metallic. And I wanted to have just... I wanted for it to glow. It would be luminous. Not light. Just luminous. But for me, you know, there's that conversation where women's bodies are routinely just unpacked as entertainment. So there's that bikini body and post-baby body and mom boobs and all the stuff that they say and all that stuff. And for me, it was...

stepping out there and allowing myself to be beautiful and sensual and powerful and strong and athletic and womanly and all this stuff and just letting it be seen. Showing some skin. Showing some skin and showing my thigh muscles and showing that was my intention. I wasn't trying to look light. I was trying to look luminous. Mm-hmm.

And so when you all shot that photograph with the gold background and the ha-na-ha-na-ha, it was lit in order to make you look luminous. Yeah. It wasn't, I'm trying to lighten my skin. And that's what was hard for me to understand. And I have...

I have more clarity about it now. It was really the black community, of course, because this colorism conversation lives in the black community. That's right. And I couldn't understand. Because all the white people now are talking, what are you talking about? Yes. Right. So there's that. There's a colorism conversation that goes on all the time because within the black community still there is a value placed on stemming from slavery and

the slaves who were allowed to come into the master's house, into the big house, versus those who were in the field. There was a color line. And the lighter your skin was, the closer you were to being white. And a lot of times that color line was defined because maybe the slave master was your relative. That's why you had the differentiation. So you were lighter and so you were treated better. Now, what I understand when I heard that that was happening is that

If you were going to lighten your skin, people then feel abandoned and they feel like everything you've ever said... Wasn't true. Wasn't true. That everything, all the lyrics, everything you've ever written, everything they believed you to be and held you up to be, then wasn't true. And if you'd lightened your skin, it wouldn't be. I agree. Yeah. I agree. I feel there's two conversations for me. The colorism conversation for what I would...

And this is my prayer. What I would love to see happen is that I find the perfect words or the perfect song to sing or to say to people that will heal a big part of this conversation in the Black community. Because really, it's about self-worth. It's about self-worth. So is unworthiness-- I mean, even after writing all of that beautiful music over the years, was unworthiness still a part of your calling card?

I hate to say it, but yes. And I know this is going to sound simple, but I really feel this. Your self-worth is your job. It's your sacred space to cultivate.

Because there's always going to be somebody who comes along and says, you're not thin enough or your hair is not that enough or you're not, your voice is not high enough or you're not going to make it in the music industry because you don't sound like all the other. There's always going to be somebody who comes along and says something like that. But if you can remind yourself that they're wrong because you know you're on path, if you can just remind yourself. And one of the things I do now after all this healing work I've done is I listen.

sit in my journal or my meditation time and I say, what would I do about this thing? Whatever it is. Sometimes it's an opportunity that I think I'm not ready for. Sometimes it's somebody telling me that I can't or I'm not worthy, you know, of something.

And I sit in my private space and I say, I really just play it all out. I can visualize it or write it. And I say, what would I do if I were, if I knew I was 100% worthy of this? What would I do? What would I do if I were 100% worthy? If I knew. What would I do? Just what if? So what do you know now that you didn't know then? I mean, sitting off on the island to yourself, being with yourself,

removing yourself from this business for a while. It's been four years. Four years just to take yourself out and have your own conversation, songversation, own songversation with yourself. What do you know now that you didn't know then? I know now that, I don't assume you would remember this, but maybe you do. One of the times that I emailed you during this period when I was just...

It's a funny and a beautiful thing, actually, because I realized that the people who are my heroes are people who tell the truth, who are truthful at all costs. And that's what I admire about you. Like, you just... You go there. And one of the first emails I wrote you was when things really were just falling apart. Yeah. And you said... I'm paraphrasing, but you said, be clear about your intention and the universe will rise up to meet you wherever you are. Mm-hmm. And I...

knew that intellectually. Yeah. I've read that in books and I knew it intellectually. But now what I know now that I did not know then is that the universe really does rise up to meet you wherever you are. And I got chills just saying that because my life is so different than it was back then. It's so different. Like, I just laugh about some of the things that I, the way my lifestyle used to be. I just laugh at it because I

Can't imagine I did it for so long. Now it's just funny because I'm so different. What makes you laugh? What makes you LOL to yourself? What makes me LOL to myself the most is that I would let anyone talk me out of following my intuition. I would let them talk me out of it. I don't know.

There's nothing in me that even understands that anymore. Because there was a part of you that allowed yourself to value what other people said more than your own voice. I didn't value it. Yeah, you did. Yeah, you did. You know, I was scared. I was scared. I was scared because my mission and my passion was...

I put it in someone else's hands and I put it in their hands because I thought they knew better than I did how to get me there. And I have so much respect for life and for what I feel God has put in my heart that I'm like, well, if I put it in your hands, you're going to help me get there and do this thing that God put on my heart, then okay, help, help me get there. And so whatever they would say, I would do even when I felt they were wrong. And it was just fear because I felt like I couldn't navigate my own life. But now what I know now that I didn't know then is that I'm responsible for myself and I can do it. And I,

And the universe does rise up to meet you wherever you are. Well, you know, that is from the moment I started doing the Oprah show all those years ago and started my own spiritual awakening about 1985. That is the clearest message I had in wanting people to receive is that you are responsible for your life.

And don't wait until you get to the end of your life before you figure that out. That all along, it was you. That all along, it was you. And how fortunate you are to get that in your 30s.

How fortunate I am to get it in my 30s. How fortunate you are to get it in your 30s. You know, I have all these girls from South Africa who now, some of them live with me. They're here going to college. And once a year, I go to South Africa and teach. And that's really, you know, I spend a week teaching. I know that it's not enough. But I try to impart that message to them so that when they're in the midst of all the voices, all the people, all the stuff. That'll click in. That'll click in. You, you, you are it. You are it.

You're the one you've been waiting for. Thank you. Thank you. That was perfect. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.

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