Super Soul Special: Nate Berkus: Design for Your Spirit
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I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now.

It was obvious Nate Berkus was born to do what he loves. From the time he can remember, he watched and studied his mom, Nancy Golden, an interior designer. Raised in Minneapolis by his mother and stepfather, Nate's love for decorating and design continued to grow as he grew up. At 24, he opened his own design firm in Chicago, quickly building a name for himself.

In 2002, Nate made his first appearance on The Oprah Show, redesigning a teeny tiny one-room apartment. I'll never forget it. He was an instant fan favorite, transforming homes and lives for the next eight years. In 2004, our viewers got to know Nate on a more personal level, and nobody could have anticipated what happened. He was vacationing in Sri Lanka with his partner Fernando Bengochea when the devastating Indian Ocean tsunami hit.

Nate and Fernando were swept away in a torrent of debris-filled water. When a massive wave separated them from one another, Fernando disappeared. Nate never saw him again. To call it a life-changing, defining moment doesn't come close to describing the impact this experience had on Nate. He says it changed everything, his entire perspective on life, on love, and design. With help, Nate persevered and returned to the work he loves.

In 2010, he got what he called the opportunity of a lifetime. The Nate Berkus Show was launched and ran for two seasons. Since then, he debuted a successful home collection for Target, and most recently, he wrote his second book, beautifully titled The Things That Matter.

I read this book because when the book first came out, I read it because it's you. I got it because it was you. I remember tweeting that I'm going to get it and pay for it myself. And you did, by the way. And I did. Thank you for that. No, you don't know. I bought 12 copies of this book.

12 copies and given to my friends. May I say, I think it's the best thing you've done. Thank you. It really is. It's a beautiful book and I tell everybody that it's about the things, the things we can hold in our hands, but it's about what's really underneath the things. I think what you say actually on the opening page of this book, the truth is that things matter.

They have to. They're what we live with and touch each and every day, and they represent what we've seen, who we've loved, and where we hope to go next. They remind us of the good times and the rough patches and everything in between that's made us who we are. It's true. Yeah. It's true. Yeah. That was really the point of the book for me.

It was, you know, a lot of people have asked me over the years, "Does design a spiritual endeavor?" And I've always believed that it was. I've never really had the language to describe why I felt that way until I sat down to do this book. You know why it is, too? Because when we were here with Rainn Wilson, Rainn Wilson said something to me several years ago, that there's really no difference between art and prayer.

- That's fascinating. - Isn't that fascinating? - Yeah. - And when you are creating design, it really is an offering. It's a gift in order to do it well, you have to be in alignment with that, which is the creator. - That's a really interesting statement. - Isn't it? - Yeah, I've never thought about that before.

I love to make you think of something you hadn't thought of before. - Never thought about it. - But this is what I love, getting through the rough patches and everything in between that's made us who we are. We do so much talking on here about being who you really are. And years ago on the Oprah show, there was a guy named James Hillman who wrote a book called "The Soul's Code." And in that he talked about the acorn within the oak that lives in all of us. Inside there's this, we're born with it.

and however that's nurtured, it gets brought into fruition to become the oak that is your life. All of us have those moments, and I know so many people are in the process of trying to discover it. For me, it was standing in front of

of the Buffalo Methodist Church doing my first Easter piece. And for you, I saw the moment. When was it? Let me tell you when your moment was. Tell me when I found my acorn. No, your acorn was 13 when you were mitzvahed. Totally. And... And I got my own bedroom. And you got your own bedroom. It really was. So I...

I was the kid that cared so much about the things around me, cared so much about the way things looked, but more importantly, the way things felt, that I was tortured by sharing a bedroom with my younger brother. And for me, it was my own space. And my mother knew that-- I don't think she knew that I would end up

end up working in design. I don't think she knew that I would end up being on your show. I don't think that anyone predicts or tries to or dreams for that. But what she did know was that her son was the kind of person that had to control the way a space felt and the way a space looked and that I would get great pleasure out of not just

the privacy, that wasn't the point. It was the selection. It was the process. It was watching a space that was raw concrete walls in a basement be transformed into a space where I could live out my daily life. Because when you are connected to those kinds of things, when you are--

those kinds of things meaning your inner world the space around you really matters really matters because the space around you reflects your inner space and i think it's universal i think no matter who we are or what we have or we don't have everybody wants to live better i think it's i think

cross-culturally, I've seen it myself with my own eyes and I've been impacted by it. And you've told a story on the show many years of being in Africa. Remember the woman who had tacked up the little piece of fabric? I was thinking about that the second you said that. That story stayed with me forever. Yeah. She's in a shack and she's tacked up a little piece of fabric over there. And you asked her why, didn't you? And she said because it's pretty. Because it's pretty.

And recently, last year at this time, I was in Haiti with Sean Penn and I sat with a father and his two daughters. They'd lost their mother and basically they're still living in the tents. The daughter had made a little dollhouse and really makes me emotional to think about it. And in the little dollhouse, she's also found a little piece of fabric to put over the windows. You're living in a tent.

You don't have a doll. You have a cardboard box. And you're decorating. And you're decorating. You're decorating. Why? Because things matter. Beauty matters. It really does. Beauty matters. So you moved into the basement, which was really kind of not...

one step above drywall, right? - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. But I watched the process. And I was the kid that ran home from school to see if the sink had been installed or if the tile had gone in or if the cabinets were coming in or my desk had arrived. - Weren't you happiest when your sink tops arrived? - I mean, the joy is indescribable. It's like,

But you know, you take that as a 13 year old boy who grew up around design. I spent the weekends going to flea markets and yard sales and estate sales and things like that with my mom. And how I am the person that I am today, I can trace directly back to those feelings because it's the same rush. It's the same rush for me. The acorn within the oak. It is the acorn within the oak. Yes.

This is the thing that touched me so much in this book that actually, you know, caused me to well up. You write, "When I was a freshman in college, I came out to my family and friends. My stepfather was actually the one who first brought the topic up with me. At the start of the summer, it turned out, he had found a letter from a guy I was dating at the time, but he didn't mention what he'd read until late August as he was driving me to the airport for the flight back to Chicago.

He told me he knew I was gay, but he was not going to tell my mother. That was up to me. Can you tell the rest of that story so I don't read it and start bawling? Yeah. - So the beautiful thing, this is a good man, my stepfather, Dr. Marshall Golden. He wanted me to know,

He understood instinctually that I would be afraid that no one would love me if I came out and that I would be cast out by my family. So though he had discovered that I was gay in the beginning of the summer, he waited three months to tell me that he had made that discovery. And the reason is that he wanted to show me, not tell me, that his behavior to me hadn't changed.

He said, "I wanted you to know that when you did something that annoyed me this summer, I yelled at you. And when you did something great this summer, I praised you. But I knew this whole time." So there's your proof. I don't feel any differently about you now than I did before I found this out about you. I think that's just such a powerful lesson for anybody who

is in a situation where you suspect your child is gay or your child has told you they're gay or whatever, in terms of handling it, that is taking the spiritual philosophy and putting it into spiritual practice. It really is. I had to still myself because...

First he was telling me that he knew so you know it was there was a lot of noise in that conversation for me because there was a lot of terror. You know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know

No, I didn't think my mother knew. I was very lucky to have a family that was supportive of me. My mother said to me, "I love you, but I need time to deal with this and process this," which is the most I can ask for, for any other young person coming out. So...

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Join their 19 million customers today at Empower.com. Not an Empower client paid or sponsored. So there's something very important that you said that I think over the years I've understood, particularly on the Oprah show for years, we used to do coming out day.

uh... because there was a national coming out day you say when you tell your beloveds that you are gay or that whatever situation is going on that you need to give them the space to

accept that information and to grieve who they thought you were or to grieve their vision of what they expected. - For what they wanted for your life. - Yes, because your mother then has to grieve, "Oh, am I gonna have grandchildren?" - Absolutely. - Yeah, all that stuff. - And deal with whatever you need to deal with and your child, I believe, should respect that. Give them the space.

to mourn, to grieve the life they thought you were going to have. The dream that I had for you. Absolutely. Give them the time to let go of that dream. But make it safe for them in the process. And coming out for me was-- what happens is when you're a kid and you know that you're gay, you develop a skill set that makes you dishonest.

You, if you think about that for a second... When you know that you're gay, you're trying to hide it. Yeah. You have to lie. You feel that you have to lie so that you're not cast out, so that your parents don't cast you out. And the things that you learn to do socially

with friends on the school bus, in class, in school, at recess, with your family, how you have to pretend that you like a girl or that you're dating someone. I was eight years old, nine years old, when I became conscious of the fact that I was gay. And I had to develop a whole skill set

around hiding that. And it's taken me almost all of my adult life to rid myself of those. Because I got pretty good at it. Really? Yeah, absolutely. That's so interesting. I never thought of it that way before. What's also fascinating is that your mother accepted it. Your stepfather said, you see, I'm not treating you any differently. Your father accepted

from what I've read, had the hardest time. He did. Yes. He, unlike my mom, didn't have any gay people around him. He really didn't understand the lifestyle. And the most important thing that happened between my father and I when I came out was that he, for years, chose to believe it was a choice that I was making. Yes. And I remember-- And had said to you at one point,

I don't understand why you're doing this. Exactly. Why would you choose this? You could be with any woman. You can have such an amazing life. And I remember after several years of not being close to him, always being connected for holidays and things like that, but never really having a conversation with him after I came out, he was in Chicago visiting me. And I took him to the airport. This is a great spiritual moment, I thought. It was. It was an enormous moment. I thought that this was one of those moments

that had you not had the courage to speak up and say this, and so many people, they don't say it. Right. And they spend the rest of their lives being upset with the other person or whatever. But I thought, what you said and the way you said it. Go ahead. Yeah. So we... His flight was delayed. We went across the street to the hotel bar, and we sat down and each ordered a drink. Mm-hmm. And I asked him how he was, and he said he was fine, and then he asked me how I was because...

he and my stepmother were worried that they would get a call someday that I had done something to myself. And I had started my design firm. I was living with my boyfriend in Chicago. How old were you? I was 24. Okay. And I thought, "Wait, what does he mean?" And when it occurred to me that he thought that he would get a phone call that I had killed myself, because it's a very empty, lonely life, and how could we possibly attain any happiness, I...

I had a moment where I thought to myself, either I'm gonna stand up and walk away from how little this man knows me, or I'm gonna dive in

AND REALLY MAKE MY CASE FOR HIM TO KNOW ME FOREVER. THIS WAS THE BIG SPIRITUAL MOMENT. THIS WAS THE MOMENT. YEAH. DID YOU KNOW THAT IT WAS A BIG SPIRITUAL MOMENT? I FELT IT. I FELT IT. I FELT EVERYTHING THAT I HAD EVER BEEN THROUGH IN MY LIFE KIND OF RUSHED TO ME IN THAT MOMENT TO GIVE ME THE VOICE THAT I NEEDED TO SAY TO HIM, "DAD, DO YOU TRUST ME?"

"Do you respect me?" - Yeah. - "I'm your oldest son. Do you respect me in business? Do you see the decisions that I've made? Do you see how I was listening at the dinner table growing up? Do you see that I have chosen to have some of your qualities and discarded other ones? Do you respect me?" And he said, "Yes." And I said, "Do you think I'm smart?"

And he said, "Yes." And I said, "Dad, why would I choose to make my life more difficult? Why would anyone choose to make their life more difficult?" The truth of the matter is, is that being gay is the way that I was born. I believe this to the core of my being. I would never choose something to make my life complicated. I said, "Dad, we're never gonna have a relationship."

a real relationship unless you believe me. And I know that you believe me and act accordingly." I said, "Dad, do you think I would choose to have this hair? Do you think that I would choose to be 5'9"? I would have been 6'1". Like, it's the exact same thing as my being gay. And then he said he never thought of it that way before. He did. He did. Which is actually my favorite moment in life, when you think of something in a way, "Wow, that's a big aha moment he had." And he said, "Nate, the importance you're placing on this issue is here,

And the importance I place on this issue is here. I do love you. I do respect you. I do admire you. If you say that you were born this way and you didn't make a choice,

then we're good. And that is the difference between moving forward in a relationship with your father, a real relationship. That was the moment. That was really the moment because then I knew that if I had his base level of respect, that I could move forward. Yeah. You know what I got from that story when I read it the first time and even now, a bigger aha for me is that the thing, if you're not willing to stand up

for who you are and have people respect you for who you are, then all the other things that supposedly matter mean nothing. Absolutely. Because that is the thing that really matters. Because no one else is going to do it for you.

Fresh out of college, Nate Berkus got his first big break working for Leslie Heineman, the influential owner of a Chicago-based auction house. She saw something special in him, a spark, even though he says he was the world's worst personal assistant. Leslie's belief in Nate was a significant milestone in the young designer's career. Strong women.

have always been behind me in some way. I can trace it back from my grandmother to my mother, to my French teacher in high school. Cheryl Storm. Yep, to Leslie, to you, obviously. But there's always been that role. There's always been that role for me, like angels guiding me. You know, one of the things that struck me, you talked about, and we all have teachers that really mattered in our lives and influenced us. For me, everybody knows it's Mrs. Duncan.

And for you, that moment when you walked into class and your French teacher, there was something about her. Cheryl Storm. Mrs. Storm. She just looked different to me. Mrs. Storm was like...

Always trying with something a scarf sort of floating on her shoulder or a hat at an angle and she really Cared so much about us and she said to me. I don't want you to just speak French I want your personality to come through in another language Wow when your personality comes through that's how you know that oh, that's a good teacher. That's a great teacher It's a great yes, and you say that

She wrote you a letter that's one of the great treasures of your life. -Absolutely. -It's one of the best things you've ever written. -Absolutely. -You know that words are my treasure. I treasure words. I love words, and it's the best gift anybody can give me is a well-written, thoughtful note. So what did she say in that letter to you? She just wrote to me that she...

had always sensed something special in me. And that she always felt that I would go on to do great things, whatever those things might have been. And that we all define greatness in different ways, but for her, she knew that I would have a life that was filled with joy because I was kind. And that makes me obviously well up.

I think that-- You know why you're welling up? Because kindness matters to you. Yeah, it does. Yeah, that's why-- It matters a big-- a huge, huge amount to me. One of the things that you say that struck me, you talked about seeing life in all of its various textures and layers and light.

And you said that you experienced that when you were in Paris. And the truth of the matter is, I experience it in California a lot. But what I'm learning to do is to experience it in the everyday. What I'm learning to do it no matter where I am, if I'm driving down Michigan Avenue, if I'm coming down Randolph, to be able to see the textures and layers in a way that I can appreciate beauty. Is that what you're always doing as a designer?

I think so. I let things find me. I let moments find me. I let objects find me. I let beauty find me in any of its forms. And that could be walking along a flea market and finding something on a table that everyone else has overlooked. But for me, there's beauty inherent in the actual object. Well, I think what's also amazing

that comes out of this book is when you were in your 20s, you were dating somebody who could design their own life. And you were at the auction house where your life only started at the end of Friday. Your weekend's going to only start... Friday 6 p.m. Friday 6 p.m. And you're dating somebody who was...

who is working, who had their own company, who had the freedom to leave on a Thursday night and take a drive to Michigan or do whatever they wanted to do. And that felt like it needed to be something that I had as well. That freedom to actually create and design my own world and my own timeline was something that I knew. That was the single thing that propelled me to start my design firm.

thought that you can stop and start to create for yourself what it is you want. Absolutely. That's a big leap. It was powerful and it was scary to start my own company at 23 years old. I had to also...

I guess as well as I thought I could at that stage of my life. Yes, because what do you know at 23? You know nothing. You know nothing. You know a whole lot of nothing. But, you know, it's funny for me because I'm 41 years old and everyone else seems to think my life has been so accelerated and I look back on it and it didn't move that fast. You know, I feel like I've always been the type of person that likes to have space around the decisions that I make and that's why my talk show didn't work for me.

I didn't have an idea of, I felt too rushed. Can we talk about the show? Yeah, let's talk about it. Can we be as honest as we need to be about it? Hey, listen, I have adored you from the first time you were on this show. And we all felt that, you know, you had it. And I thought I remember, I remember having a conversation with you. Mm-hmm.

When you were leaning towards having your own show did I not have you in my office? Yeah, yeah, we did. Yeah, yeah, I'm waiting to hear what you say though. Yeah, okay, so

I don't remember exactly what I said, but what I was feeling was that you wanted to do this thing. I was trying to discourage you from going into five days a week. Right. But I also knew that you were in that space in that moment where you really wanted it and you, you know, felt that you should. And I felt that we had been behind you all this time. And so let's see what happens.

I'm ambitious. Yes. And I felt that that was an opportunity of a lifetime. Yeah. And everyone around me told me it was an opportunity of a lifetime. And the truth is, it was. It was. It was an enormous opportunity of a lifetime. But an almost impossible thing to do in the way you wanted to do it every day. Absolutely. And, you know, the truth was for me,

is that I am a person that likes to have space around the decisions that I make, even for the makeovers. When I was doing the makeovers on the Oprah Winfrey show,

They were spaced out about every six weeks apart. So if something didn't come in, right? I had the time to make that change with the show every day I lost sight of what was important and what mattered to me because I just was on that schedule every single day Okay, so the show for me was just it was not the right format for me. It wasn't the right. Did you feel overwhelmed? I felt overwhelmed I felt exhausted I gained 20 pounds I was I was

I felt unhealthy, I felt like there was no way I could do a good job. And then I realized that very quickly that I should have done a show that was one day a week at most. - Yes, 'cause that's what I always think.

- It would have been amazing for me to do that. And maybe I will, but that for me was like that moment where I thought, I'm not that guy. - I got some space on this channel. - We got some real estate. - I got some real estate for you. I know a place you could go. - Excellent. - Yes, yeah. So you realize that when though?

How deep were you into it? - I realized, I actually, oh well, probably to be perfectly honest, I realized that the second week we were in development of the show. And so basically for two years I was unrecognizable to myself. And I think that came through on camera because everyone,

is very smart and when they see somebody doing something that they're not really meant to be doing or trying to sort of fake it until you make it, that-- that-- that-- who wants to watch that? I don't even want to watch it. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, if you-- if you cannot-- first of all, what I've learned, and you know this too, and for everybody who's watching us around the world, if you cannot be authentic, if you cannot be true to yourself,

If I cannot make the decision based upon what feels right to me, and now I'm operating on what everybody else is saying, I don't know how to be in that. Yeah, I don't know how to function. I mean, conversely, I met wonderful people. Some of my producers will be friends of mine for life. It's like summer camp. You're in the trenches together. Because it's not about blaming people. Not at all. And I'm grateful that I went through it because I know that's not what I want. And so what did it teach you?

It taught me that I really do need to stop and take the time before I make a major decision like that. And then I have to really decide for myself why I'm doing something. Was part of it ego? Totally. Oh, absolutely. Ego, money, of course. All of that was rolled in. But everything ends for a reason. And I really also felt that I-- surprising to me,

to get deep for a moment was that a lot happened when that show ended. My relationship of three years ended. Personally, I needed to get back in shape. I needed to kind of get control of myself again in many different ways. And I went into therapy for the first time since the tsunami. And it was interesting because my friends, my close friends said to me, "You're so breezy about this show ending."

and the stuff in the news and you're fine and you knew it wasn't right and you're ready to move on and you don't even care that you don't know what moving on means, you're just ready to be done. And you're so breezy about it and I was. I was concerned for my staff, I was concerned for some of my friends that worked on the show.

But for me, I thought, I'm going to be fine. I felt that I would be fine. Was there a part of you that was relieved? Enormously relieved. Yeah. And I went into therapy, and I started to work on a lot of issues that I had never really addressed before. My childhood, why I make certain decisions, why it was important for me to be on TV, why I wanted this so badly, and where I was now.

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What's significant about it to me is that your story, my story, everybody's story of their life

has to be a part of the ultimate design in their life. I mean, all of that is what's coming forth in all of the things that you surround yourself with. That is why when I walk into an interior that somebody's hired a decorator or they've done based on what they saw on TV or in a magazine or whatever it is, it doesn't matter really to me ever how much money someone's spent. But when I walk into a space and it doesn't reflect the people that live there, it's not...

A good job. Yeah. And I've always thought a home has to reflect the people that live there, tell the stories of who they are. And it's not instant. It should be assembled and layered over time. Oh, that is so true. That's what I'm now doing. It is. That's exactly what Rose Tarlow said when she came into my house. This house is beautiful, nice art, really nice, but didn't have anything to do with you. It's true. Yeah.

My life was going at, I don't know how many miles per hour, doing five shows a week for 25 years. I wasn't really living in any spaces. You weren't living anywhere. I wasn't. That is the truth. Yeah, that is true. Oh, no, that makes me want to cry right now.

But you really weren't, and I knew you. I haven't lived anywhere. For the past 25 years, I haven't lived. I look at my apartment in Chicago now, and that was a sleep space. I think that's why when you were in Montecito, you spent so much time outside. I think that's why the trees mattered so much, too. That's why my favorite space is under the tree. Because it wasn't designed. Someone else, God designed that. Yeah. So, I mean, it was... Oh, I just had an aha. That was really good. Yeah. Yeah.

So when our homes really do reflect who we are and who we aspire to be, that's when you have a space that everyone is drawn to. And what's interesting about that is that the best design projects

that have ever been shown or seen or photographed are always the ones where the people broke the rules. They weren't listening to what anyone else had to say. This is so true. I just had another big aha. But you know what I realized, too? We spend a lot of time on this show. This is my favorite show, Super Soul Sunday, on the whole network because it's about getting people to think about the things that really matter. And this book is about the inner end of

the outer expression. And how they're connected. And how other people can connect them. So how do we, how do you then define people's love of material possessions? So we're taught that you're not supposed to care about things, you're not supposed to admit it because we're supposed to care about people and we're supposed to first and I believe in that. But I think we have to care about things because they do represent us and they do hold memories.

So what people need to do is stop and take a beat before they acquire. And this will actually solve a lot of issues that people have, I think.

Stop take a beat before you acquire before you buy that sofa Yeah, or that table or that lamp or that mirror or or fill your bookshelves with books? You've not read whatever it is before you do it You need to stop and ask yourself the question. Is this really serving me in my home? Is this telling the story of Who I am does this represent what matters to me? I

And if it doesn't, you can like something just because it's pretty. Yeah. However, if it's because you saw it on the cover of a magazine or you saw it on a TV makeover show and somebody told you this is the newest, hottest thing, then the answer is no. And you need to take the space you need to make authentic decisions for what you allow into your home. In 2004, Nate Berkus lost his partner, Fernando Bengochea, during the Indian Ocean tsunami in Sri Lanka.

After Nate's exhaustive and unsuccessful search for Fernando, he returned home and was comforted by family and friends and one of Fernando's greatest gifts, two pieces of art he'd given Nate just before their trip. Talking about other things that matter, you had asked Fernando for pictures that he had done.

and he was offended that you'd asked. Yeah. He had created this series of 10 photographs that were woven by hand. He wove them by hand. They're five feet by six feet tall, and they're hand-woven, cut into millimeter-wide strips that he hand-wove with a tweezer.

And he asked me what I wanted for Christmas that year and I said, "What I want is one of your woven photographs." They were being represented at a gallery in New York. And he went insane. He started yelling at me and how could I ask for that and they were selling for so much money and he would never have sold them if he didn't need to and he wishes he would never have to sell any but he's not rich and I had a lot of nerve and I'm a terrible person and this and that and going on and on and on. What do you want for Christmas? Well, I'd like a couple of those photographs.

How dare you ask me for that? So I said, you know what, then I want nothing. If you want to ask me, I'll tell you the truth, and that's the truth. What do you think I want, a sweater? I don't want a sweater. I want that. So if you have all these 10,000 reasons why I shouldn't have that, then keep them, and that's fine. And sell them. Do whatever you need to do, and I'll be just fine. Okay. So we were leaving for that trip, the trip he never came home from, and I walked into the apartment, and he had delivered clothes

both not just one of the woven trees but two and he had hung them in the entryway of my apartment and taken down the the paintings that were there and put them where he wanted them to go um and i of course didn't think about that after the tsunami but when i came home yes it was the first thing that i noticed and it represented everything really it represented everything it represented

That he would do that? That he would do it. That he would do it in that way. That he couldn't be coerced into doing it, but in his heart he wanted to do it anyway, and that's really who he was. Wow. So they're the most meaningful things to me that I have. They represent his soul. They represent his heart. They represent his essence as a person. And the fact that he wanted me to have them

not one, which I had asked for, but both, was just a level of generosity that I don't think comes around a lot. Wow. And so every time you see that, you were reminded all of that conscious and subconscious energy goes into every time you look at one of those... Absolutely. And he touched them. Pieces of art. He touched each one. And he... I walked past it. And, of course, sometimes it's subconscious, sometimes it's very conscious. But I think to myself, I was loved that way.

Oh, that's great. That is great. I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul Conversation. Thank you for listening.

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