Vase-mania
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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is In Our Time from BBC Radio 4 and this is one of more than a thousand episodes you can find on BBC Sounds and on our website. If you scroll down the page for this edition, you'll find a reading list to go with it. I hope you enjoy the programme. Hello. In the second half of the 18th century, inspired by archaeological discoveries, the Grand Tour and the founding of the British Museum...

parts of the British public developed a huge appetite for acquiring vases modelled on ancient archetypes. This enthusiasm reached such a pitch that we might call it vase mania. Initially collected by aristocrats, Josiah Wedgwood made reproductions of these antiquities commercially available to an emerging middle class to display a piece of their classical past in their drawing rooms.

At a time of social upheaval, all these vases came to symbolise the birth of European civilisation, the epitome of good taste, and a kind of timeless serenity that would later be celebrated by John Keats in his poem, Ode on a Grecian Urn. We need to discuss Vase Mania by Caroline McCaffrey-Howarth, lecturer in the history of art at the University of Edinburgh.

Rosemary Sweet, Professor of Urban History at the University of Leicester, and the writer and biographer Jenny Uglow. Jenny, why were people particularly interested in the classical world in the 18th century? What excavations were going on at the time? What was being discovered?

Well, it's an extraordinarily exciting time for excavations. It goes back really to the 1730s and 1740s when the work started in earnest on Pompeii and Herculaneum. And it was just a sort of new interest because interest before that had been in Roman, the Roman past.

And this was thought to be the Greek or even the Etruscan past. And so in the 1750s, because of this feeling that we didn't know a lot about Greek, people went off to Athens and published books on Greek antiquities.

And particularly also in France, there are many people involved with the French excavations, published wonderful folios of vases and things that were discovered. And so after that, it becomes a kind of race, both to keep up with France and also to prove that you knew about Greek antiquity as well as Roman antiquity. What else was going on at this time to, as you were, encourage the focus on the classical past?

And to what extent were Greek vices a distraction from the turbulence of the times? I think they're more of a distraction. I mean, they become status symbols to prove that you're in touch with the latest sort of archaeological finds and the latest classical learning. And that's your sort of status as a well-educated classicist. But also...

It's a time of a sort of growing disturbance, a growing uncertainty. Problems with the American colonies after the Stamp Act, which is, you know, they take up the thing, no taxation without representation.

There are troubles in different parts of the sort of industrial world, the coal heavers on the Tyne, the silk workers and so on. And there's a popular demand for more rights. So the supporters of the radical MP John Wilkes, for example, 1768 said,

There's a big meeting in St George's Field in London where the authorities send in the troops and they open fire and people are killed. So it's not a revolutionary time, but there's a rumbling of unrest. So that whole sense of classical serenity and elegance and dignity is very much something for a particular class to hold on to, to say this has nothing to do with us.

And they used that to recreate it in a way that we're going to discover. But was it important? Did they talk about it? Did they say it used to be better in the old days? Are we uncovering it now? Or was it part of the conversation at the time? Oh, I think it was very much part of that conversation at the time. There'd always been that sense of talking about the Roman past, you know, Augustan virtues and so on, straightforward. But

But the Greek is also that idea of sort of beauty, of mystery. So it's not just an austere classicism. It's a kind of quite romantic classicism. Nobody quite knew what the stories were and things like that. So it can be a thing that you chat about amongst yourselves. You know, what is that on this vase? And also, where did you get them? You know, it's an exciting part of sort of European...

belonging and discovery. Rumi, why did Greek attract particular attention?

Well, as Jenny says, initially the main interest in the classical past was with Roman antiquity because that was that much more accessible. It was there in Italy for you to see right before your eyes. It was even there in Britain if you went up to the Roman wall or went to Leicester to see Jewelry Wall. And so that was the dominant interest and particularly the inheritance of the Renaissance era was this interest in Roman antiquity.

But people had always been interested in Greece, obviously, as being the source of Roman civilization. Of course, the Romans had admired Greece. So there was always an awareness. And I think what happens in the 18th century, as Jenny says, in the discovery of Pompeii and Herculaneum, but there's also the discovery or at least rediscovery of the Greek temples at Paestum, for example, which is south of Naples.

And there is more knowledge of Greece because there's more exploration there. So Jenny's mentioned James Stewart and Nicholas Revett, who went to Greece in the 1750s to study the monuments in Greece and published their Antiquities of Athens in 1762. How did they publish them?

It was published at the expense of the Society of Dilettanti, which was an association of largely aristocratic men who, as Horace Walpole said, had been to Italy and had been drunk. But it was really, it was a self-selecting group of rich young men who were interested in travel and who were interested in the classical past because that was what their education was. And they had the money and wealth to

to provide patronage for artists and draftsmen like Revit and Stuart. And this was a form of conspicuous consumption, if you like, that they could afford to go to Greece, that people knew about Rome. Rome was well documented by the mid-18th century. They'd been here for quite a few hundred years anyway. But Greece was not quite Terranova, but it had been...

well, it was much less accessible. It was still under Ottoman control and far less was known about it. And so in the

Second half of the 18th century, we get a general increase of British travel anyway, exploring all over Europe, whether it's to Spain, whether it's to Scandinavia, whether it's to Greece. So there's this broadening of travel. And there's this interest in Greece, partly, as I say, stimulated by an awareness of this Greek civilisation in Italy, but also the fashionable interest because it's what is new. And there's also a more literary interest in Greece. This is a time where Robert Wood is writing about Homer and...

representing Homer as a poet of infinite merit for his primitive simplicity, if you like. Voltaire had been very dismissive of Homer and thought him rough and barbaric, whereas the second half of the 18th century, there's this ideal of the purity and simplicity of ancient Greece culture that has been uncorrupted by modern civilisation. So you can see a kind of Rousseauist influence there as well, the primitive simplicity of ancient Greek culture.

There were other trends at the time, ascetic trends, Rococo, Chinoiserie, the Gothic revival. How did they fare? Was there a competition between them? Well, I think initially the Greek revival, if you can call it that, was on a par with Rococo, Chinoiserie, the Gothic, but it wasn't mainstream. So the early Greek buildings like the Temple of the Four Winds in Oxford or the Doric Temple at Hagley, these are sort of

almost ornamental buildings, which are built in an idiosyncratic style, like the Chinoiserie, like the Rococo. But by the end of the 18th century, there is much more knowledge about Greek architecture and it's becoming much more... We've got the Greek revival and buildings are being built on the principles of Greek architecture. So it's a gradual displacement of these more...

ornamental styles, if you like. And the point about Chinoiserie, Rococo, Gothic is that they are the contrast of uniformity, the symmetry, the proportions of classical architecture. And so that's, if you like, they're a reaction against that. And Greek revival is initially almost treated as another variant, but becomes mainstream and does...

There's always the underlying interest in chinoiserie. We have the chinoiserie of the mid-18th century where you have William Chambers' Pagoda at Kew, but then by the end of the 18th, early 19th century, you've got the exoticism of the Brighton Pavilion for the Prince Regent, which is a simile that appeal is the sense of the exotic, the sense of difference, that it doesn't obey any of the rules of classical architecture anymore.

So I think this is one of the interesting things about the Greek revival, the way in which it insinuates its way into British culture. Thank you. Caroline, what else was going on at the time to develop people's interest in classical world performance?

For example, let's take the Grand Tour to start with. Yeah, absolutely. So I think the Grand Tour is really the sort of rite of passage for young men and women, predominantly men, but women were definitely travelling as well, to kind of complete their education, which was absolutely grounded in the classics.

And this would involve you going, travelling across continental Europe to France, to Switzerland, but also, of course, to Italy and then eventually to Greece as well to see these excavations, to visit ruins, but also to kind of pick up, you know, some antique objects.

sculpture or plaster cast or a souvenir print by Piranesi to have your grand tour portrait done by someone like Pompeo Bertone who sort of makes his money really doing these grand tour portraits. So they are travelling around, they're seeing these sites and they're witnessing them and reading travel literature which is telling them what they should be thinking and then going to these sites and sort of recreating that aura of standing in front of these original objects.

which I think is really, really interesting that there's also this idea that it's an opportunity to be away from home. There's a freedom there that they can explore quite often. They would go with a sort of tutor, a cicerone, they would be called, and kind of play away as well. Lady Mary Montagu writes in Venice that she's seeing these sort of young men, grand tourists, and that they are the greatest blockheads in nature. And I think that kind of sums up that

Yes, this isn't a kind of educational... English abroad, English young men abroad. Well, exactly. I mean, how much has changed, really, perhaps, you could say. But I think there's definitely the sense that you're going, you're completing your education, but also there's other things happening there as well. Have we any idea of the scale on which this was done? I mean, a few dozen, a few score, a few hundred?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, we know that there are thousands of people going on a grand tour. We're dealing really with the elite, right? The top of the aristocratic elite at this point. Wealthy or titled? Both, I think, a definite mixture of the sort of nobility, really, at this moment. Very much so. We are...

We are seeing artists and designers going or perhaps having patronage so that they can go and travel. But for the most part, we're dealing with kind of the top echelons of society going to really understand and improve the taste that they have.

Bringing the ideas and the objects mostly back, how did that fit in with the movements of the clubs in Britain, the drift of intellectual life in Britain by the sort of people you've mentioned? So Rui's already mentioned the Society of Dilettante, this very select, elite gentleman's club that was really all about preserving the art. But this is being printed as well, it isn't just chat, isn't it?

Yes, so they are funding things like the antiquities of Athens, but there's also a huge increase in print culture from the end of the 17th century onwards. That's happening in Italy with publications like Valori's, but also in France with the Comte de Calais and Montfaucon. And then you get this kind of burst of publications that are just showing archaeological ruins, they're showing inscriptions.

designs from the temples that they're finding but also from vases as well and then that's coming and that is having a sort of dissemination because then people who cannot afford to or are not able to travel on these grand tours are still able to access the antique to see the sort of truth replicated through the writing but also the visual accounts in these publications as well.

Have you any idea of the force of this taste going through a particular strand or strands, you tell me, in society at the time? Yes, I mean, I think it was definitely much more accessible to the elite who were able to travel. But then I think through these printed publications, you do get the opportunity for the rest of society to access these types of documents.

and images, but then you also have this desire, we see it with the Society of Dilettanti, but we also see it with people like William Hamilton, Ambassador to Naples, who really want to encourage people at home to benefit from antique taste and from the classical past. So that's a real opportunity, I think, to show. Jenny, Jenny Uglow, let's take William Hamilton across the table to Jenny.

What was his position in all this? Oh, in terms of Vars mania, Hamilton is absolutely the sort of key to a great surge in British interest. Because we think of William Hamilton, if at all, in terms of Emma, his wife Emma, and Nelson and so on, and Scandal and things like that. But that's when Hamilton is in his 60s.

When he goes out to Naples, he's in his 30s. He's 30. He goes in 1764 as envoy to the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. He's tremendously enthusiastic about everything that he sees there. First, the volcanoes. He's up and down Vesuvius all the time. His friends think he's going to get burnt in an eruption. He's writing letters about that. And the Campi Flegri, all the volcanic area, great.

But he's also collecting vases because, as Caroline has said, you know, there they are. They've seen engravings of them in the Comte de Quai-Loup and things like that. So he buys from collectors. He goes out and he even unearths some himself. He opens tombs. He gets them back. He writes about them. And within three years, he has produced the first of what will be four volumes of extraordinary furniture.

folios of beautifully reproduced images of his collection. Does he do the production? No, he would have had them engraved and drawn for him. And he employs also a commentator, the Baron d'Ancarville, who is going to write about them. And it's a time when, as he said, there's this great interest in history, generally, history of the earth, history of the past, history of everything. So Winckelmann's

A History of Ancient Art has been published exactly when Hamilton goes to Naples. And so he gets Hancock to write and they're theorising about the history of art as well. But...

The main thing is that Hamilton deliberately makes these folios, as he says, a present to British manufacturers. Here they will find, he said, a constant flowing stream of designs and some of the engravings are laid out flat, in a rectangle, so that you could actually trace, copy the design, reconstruct it, print it, you know. He wants British, it's a patriotic act,

Britain can imitate these. Why was he so specifically focused on vases and why did people follow him so readily as they did? Well, I don't think

I think he would have collected anything. But you know what? Collecting is a sort of mania in itself, isn't it? You've got one vase, but that one over there, oh, that's so much better. You know, I got out of that. I've got a wine vase. I haven't got a water vase. So it's that kind of drive. He just wanted to have the best collection ever. And then he wanted to show off. So in the end, he sells them to the British Museum for a lot of money.

You want to come in, Carla? At one point, Hamilton says that antique vases have this je ne sais quoi of elegance that the modern ones don't. And I think for him, it's that elegance, that purity, that simplicity. He's fascinated by it.

It goes back to the idea of taste, which is assumed to be non-negotiable. This is an absolute quality and that it was manifest in its purest form in antiquity. So no modern production can match the taste of the ancients. And so you can simply try and... Well, some people felt that they might be able to improve upon it, but it's this idea that this is ideal, that...

If English manufacturers can copy it, it will improve their taste. And this is the constant refrain to improve the taste of British manufacturers. And he's a member of the Royal Society for Promotion of Arts and Manufacturers, the Society of Arts. So he goes out to Naples already with this in his head. And it also means for himself to establish a reputation as a man of taste, as a younger son in a rather inferior diplomatic postings.

Rui, while we're with you and while we're on the subject of someone taking up the idea and reproducing it, that brings us straight to Josiah Wedgwood. It does. Can you tell the listener who he was and what he did? Well, Josiah Wedgwood, I feel a bit bad talking about Josiah Wedgwood if Jenny's sitting right next to me, but he was a... Jenny can join in. Yeah, I can. She can. He was one of the leading...

potters of the mid-18th century. And in the 1760s, he's already made a significant name for himself in the production of creamware, which was this very fine ovenware with a very, very pale cream glaze, which was wildly popular. And he...

was given by Lord Cathcut, who was Hamilton's brother-in-law and ambassador to Russia. He was given an advanced access to Hamilton's publication, which he immediately realised could provide evidence

extraordinary models for his vases. He was already producing vases because they were popular anyway. People like having a vase on the mantelpiece or in their library. So he already had a nice line in vases. But he realised that the designs could...

a completely new line of vases in imitation of the ancients. And he already had his black basalt ovenware, which he had perfected using the clay that had got carbon in it from the coal. So it was this

black clay and then he developed the method of uncaustic painting which he claimed had been lost since the time of Pliny and he had reinvented it so he starts producing these vases in imitation of what were then believed to be Etruscans so which slightly complicates the story about the Greek revival because a lot of people thought they were Etruscan but never mind

So they were called Etruscan vases. Hold on, hold on, hold on. It does matter. It does matter, yeah. I do mind that you're not going into it. So when Hamilton was collecting the vases, they were known as Etruscan vases because there was a very strong sort of, well, not quite nationalist movement, but it was known that before the Romans became established, they displaced a people called the Etruscans. And it was believed that civilisation had...

travelled from Egypt to the Etruscans to the Greeks. So they were this pivotal stage in the movement of civilisation. And there was a lot of...

Kudos to Italy in establishing the superiority of Etruscan art and particularly in the Kingdom of Tuscany. The Dukes of Tuscany were very keen to establish the superiority of Etruscan art. Do you want to come in, Jenny? Yes. It's lovely hearing this discussion, this sort of Wedgwood coming out of that whole interest.

And he certainly thought they were Etruscan. So that when he opens his brand new factory in 1769, he calls it Etruria. And he threw six of these Etruscan vases with their red encaustic design, one of them copied straight from Hamilton's book. And on the back of it,

It writes, the Etruscan arts reborn. So he, as a manufacturer, is laying claim to be able to deliver Etruria to the Etruscan, to the British people. So there was this double think going on that people like Hamilton certainly understood them to be Greek by the time he was publishing. He'd realised that some of the vases actually have inscriptions on them in Greek. So...

It was suspected that were Greek. And Hamilton was also... Well, over the 1760s, 1770s, increasing reports came back from Greece of similar vases that had been identified in Greece. So it becomes known that they're Greek, but they're always called Etruscan vases. And so there's this... We know they're Greek, but they're called Etruscan. Jenny? Yes, I think Hamilton kept trying to correct this. But Wedgwood too...

is an enthusiast like Hamilton. I mean, he is not just a cool manufacturer. He's the kind of heated manufacturer. So part of his aim, he's tremendously excited, is to actually beat France. France already has le goût grec. Now he can give Britain the goût. Greek taste. Greek taste, yes.

And so he makes these exclusive reproductions, first of all, for the grand and good. And he has a showroom in London where the walls are painted in beautiful colours, yellows, blacks and so on. So the vases stand around them and it's very smart to go and visit his shop and to purchase a vase. But then after a while...

He says the great in their palaces have had these. In fact, you can see he's thinking that market's running out. So he starts reproducing slightly cheaper versions for the middling classes. And he sells whole sets of vases right to the end of the century. A few years after Wedgwood dies in the 1790s, these vases are still going around.

out. Yeah, so by 1772, he has over 100 vases in production. So I think just in terms of knowing that if you've got one, you might, you know, you're going to want the next 99 in the series. But it's really interesting. He says that he wants to become the vase maker general to the universe, which is, you know, so modest, really, that he's going to come and just do this for the whole universe. But there is something I think really key here about wanting to

put himself on top and not just surpass Europe, but also surpass the ancients, right? He's trying to recreate and reinvent the antique. And he's very interested in the spirit of antiquity. But there are also these kind of commercial gains. So, for example, with the encaustic method, he patents that as soon as it's done. So it's really kind of showing what he can do and what he's achieved as well to the masses. Yeah.

Following that, when Hamilton sells his collection, first of all, to the British Museum, he sells it for...

£8,400, which is an enormous sum in those days. And Wedgwood says, oh, I think we've made three times as much from selling the copies. So, you know, it's a big, big business deal. Can you go into a bit more detail about Wedgwood's technique and his resources?

Obviously, they're going to have to be very good, his vows, aren't they? We're not talking about knocking something off in the bug of a shed. So what resources did he have? He has huge resources. When he builds Etruria in the end of the 1760s, it's a purpose-built factory. So he has a huge kind of team behind him.

And he is also sending things to be decorated in London. He has London decorating studios and he also has London selling studios. So he has this showroom. So you can come to the factory and see the sort of nitty gritty, slightly dirty day to day life in the factory. But you can also go to the very pretty London showroom and see this.

With the encaustic technique, he is very clever. You unrub an encaustic again? Yes, absolutely. So he is very clever. He basically mixes together enamels with vitriol of iron, oxides, bronze powder, and he adds a little bit of slip, which is clay mixed with water, and he very thinly paints it onto the vase, and then that is fired. So it gives this appearance of red, kind of black encaustic,

ancient Greek vases. Red or black or red and black? Red and black and orange as well he adds in different colours and so it's very costly very expensive and this is one of the issues he actually writes about the fact that he wants to sell these Etruscan vases but that

Sometimes he calls them Greek vases. You know, he's quite interchangeable, but that they are expensive. But he's trying to replicate what he sees in Hamilton's books. But he does it slightly differently. So several of the ones in Hamilton's publication are huge and he recreates them in half the size. So he doesn't always follow everything exactly.

Let's talk about authenticity for a moment. Rui, would you like to start that? What did people think they were buying when they were buying a Wedgwood vase that looked like the vase that had come from Etruria? I think they thought they were buying a modern product in the best classical taste. Nobody thought that they were buying an ancient vase. Why did they think it was so valuable?

They weren't paying the amount they'd be paying for a genuine ancient vase. The vases that Wedgwood was selling were a matter of guineas, whereas the best ones weren't. If you were buying an ancient vase in Italy, you'd be paying a lot more. So people thought they were getting the finest modern product, which was created in the finest classical taste.

And they were aware that it wasn't an original. And there's letters from particularly aristocratic patrons, because these are the ones that tend to survive, about the vases they want made for their libraries where they say, well, I only want the images on the front because nobody will see the back. So there's no point. So can you get the cost down a bit?

And they would choose the design from the Hamilton volume that they wanted to reproduce on the vase. So they were under no illusion that they were buying something classical. But they very firmly believed that this was for the finest taste and that the fact that they appreciated it, again, was a demonstration of their taste. Jenny?

And then they move, don't they, from the black with the red to what we think of really as a Wedgwood vase, which is the blue jasper with wonderful sort of base relief. And that's a technique of the white story, the flowing draperies, the chariots and everything all going round the vase. Yes.

And that's a technique that's always really intrigued me, isn't it? It's sort of sprigging, it's called, where you make a mould and then tiny bits are attached with the slip clay. But you probably know more about the technique. So Wedgwood does thousands and thousands of trials to perfect his jasperware. He also invents something called a pyrometer, which is specifically like a thermometer to check the temperature of the kiln. Gets him into the Royal Society because he invents this technique.

to really perfect things. What I think is so interesting is he's constantly going back to the ancient traditions to revive them, but he's doing it with the most up-to-date ceramic technology that he has at his disposal in the late 18th century. I think that

That juxtaposition is really, really interesting. And really good artists too and designers. That's a key. But again, he had an ancient model for his dress beware too, the Barberini vase. I mean, he was developing the dress beware before the Barberini vase came to England, but it's...

He clearly copies it and produces reproductions. What's the Barbarini vase? The Barbarini vase was actually a Roman vase. It wasn't a Greek vase. And it was made of cobalt blue glass with an opaque white motif fixed onto it in a similar way to jasperware. But it's not made of earthenware. Jasperware was its glass material.

And the motif was, well, nobody's quite sure what it depicts, but it's a kind of ancient, some ritual scene. And it had been discovered in the late 16th century outside Rome and had been much admired by collectors through the 17th and the 18th century. It was one of the sites of Rome you'd go and see the Barbarini vase. It belonged to the Barbarini family, not surprisingly.

And then it was acquired by a Scottish dealer, James Byers, who sold it to Hamilton, who thought that he would be able to sell it at a vast profit when he goes back to England on one of his periodic visits. So he returns in 1783 and manages to sell it to the Duchess of Portland, who was a great collector and a great patron of the arts. And sadly, she only lives to enjoy it for a year. And then it's sold...

with her goods after she dies and bought by the Fourth Duke of Portland, who actually puts it in the British Museum on loan where it can be admired. So because of the publicity around the sale, it becomes well-known in Britain, even for people who've never been to Italy, and it is staggeringly beautiful. Unfortunately, it was smashed in 1840 by somebody with...

was drunk and probably had mental health issues. He went into the British Museum and smashed it, but it has been put together again. But it's absolutely amazing. And it was one of these works of art which is really well known, widely reproduced in prints. And Wedgwood, of course, capitalised on that to produce a Jasper version for the market. Caroline, we've been talking about the middle classes. Now, can you give us some idea of where that is on the snobbery notch?

in this country. These middle classes I remember in the 16th, 17th century, they're always rising, aren't they? What were they doing this time? They

They were always rising. Yeah, that's a really good way of thinking about it. I think someone like Wedgwood is aware that he needs to suit not only the market and the tastes of his elite patrons, but also he talks one point about needing to suit the purses of his purchasers. So he's really aware that there is this growing middle market who are perhaps not able to afford the best of the best or, you know, hundreds of vases, but might afford one and have that on their mantelpiece.

So there is a real sense that at this point, there are more and more kind of middle classes moving towards neoclassicism, whether that's having furniture that's done in a slightly Greek revival style or something else more than that.

Just to keep going with this for a second, if you had one or two of those vows, when people came into your room, did they automatically think, or of course keep it to themselves, oh, here's someone with great taste, I must get one of those. Is that what was going on? I think so. And I think it's also a moment of demonstrating that you were part of the crowd, that you understood and you understood

And then you could say, oh, well, that's a lovely apotheosis of Homer. Oh, how lovely. Oh, yes. Oh, have you seen my Adam style chairs that have just appeared? My Matthew Bolton silverware that's just appeared from Birmingham. So I think there's also this sociability that comes with this, particularly bringing back to earlier points, if you cannot travel and do the Grand Tour or if you've done that and you've come home and you're back to the plodding along the daily life, what do you want to think about? You want to think about ancient Rome and Greece through these objects. Yeah.

Yes, and then a slightly different thing happens, doesn't it? Which is that people lose interest in the purity of the Greek, but they adore the style. They love these wafting draperies and lyres and things.

So that Wedgwood has designers who will, well, like Flaxman, you know, who produce sort of freezers of muses with floating drapery and many women designers who produce...

the Greek vase style thing of children playing and so on so that it becomes a slightly different taste and that's very middling class I think. And it's very multimedia too. I mean it's not, we've been talking about it in terms of vases but we find that

the motifs from the vases being lifted by people like Henry Clay of Birmingham and making lots of papier-mâché trays and snuff boxes and tea caddies and tables with these decorations that are, again, lifted from Hamilton's volumes of designs because obviously...

They've had to be transposed into a two-dimensional flat image for purposes of publication. And these lend themselves to being copied and reproduced in all sorts of other formats. How far down the class pecking order did this go? We talked about the aristocrats and the middle class a little earlier.

Did it sink further into ordinary people or what was going on? I very much doubt it unless somebody fell on very hard times. I mean, this is one of the things about the 18th century that you could be prosperous and middling salt whilst you're earning a living. But then if you...

become old and no longer able to work you might end up in the workhouse and then you're there'll be an inventory of your goods taken a pauper inventory as it's known but I've never seen anything like that in a pauper inventory I love this idea that it is spreads out and it gets spread into thinking of Birmingham to the lacquer work they made these lacquer trays and they

And now in Mary Barton, Elizabeth Gaskell's novel, the 1830s of artisan workers who are going to fall on hard times, the one precious thing that they have is this lacquered tray. We don't know what the design of it was. Maybe it was, you know, Wedgwood mythic.

Or Hamilton's classical design. I think the other thing is even if you couldn't afford these objects, you could go and see them. So, for example, bringing it back to Wedgwood in the Portland Vase, when he perfects it, he spends over five years trying to recreate it. And when he manages to, he puts it on show as a ticketed event in his showroom in Greek Street in Soho. And he sells everything.

2,000 tickets for people to come and see this vase. So even if you can't afford it, and you would never be able to have that in your home, you might still be able to go in and just get a glimpse of what Wedgwood has achieved. So I think there's also consumption through actually having these objects, but also being surrounded by the vase mania as well. Like a painting in a gallery. Absolutely. Yeah, he's tapped in to the market completely. Wow.

And the displays of his showrooms that people could... The whole point was the showroom had big glass windows that you could look in so people could see these things on sale. Window shopping. You've talked about the Portland Vase a lot. Can we just stick with it for a moment?

Caroline, what legacy did Wedgwood leave? Let's talk about the Portland bars, but other things that he made as well. Oh, a huge legacy. And actually, on that note, the V&A Wedgwood collection has just celebrated its 10th anniversary this year of the Wedgwood Museum being saved for the nation. And the factory still exists today. If you go to Barleston, the Wedgwood factory still exists.

I think with the Portland Vase in particular, he really showed that he knew exactly what he was doing. At times he's reinventing or innovating the antique, the Portland Vase, he wants to completely recreate it. So for several centuries, since it's really discovered, people weren't sure what it was made of. They thought it was onyx or agate or porcelain. It is

it's really only in the 18th century they go, actually, this is glass. And he goes, right, well, I've made this, perfected this very particular type of ceramic. There's no predecessor from my Jasper where I'm going to make the most famous vase in this material. And he does it.

and he has a subscription list of people who subscribe to the first edition of the Portland Vase. He has it on his showroom in London. He also sends his son and someone else from the factory on a little grand tour themselves across Europe to show off people this Portland Vase so they can then buy it. So we find their names in all of these guest books dotted around these palaces in Europe.

where they're bringing his kind of spoils, as it were. So he is absolutely a businessman at heart. And I think he really crafts a very careful identity and legacy for himself with the Portland Vase.

Did the fact that he was a businessman not only encourage his business, but depict a new sort of person in the game, in the art game? Definitely, yeah. I think he really manages to carve out a position for himself as an industrial person. You know, he's a potter. He has smallpox when he's a kid, so he ends up having his own

leg amputated later in life, so he can't be a thrower. He can't spend his whole life making pots, so he has to manage a huge business which will make pots for him. So I think there's something very interesting about what he does. But we haven't mentioned Thomas Bentley, and I think he's an important part of the story because this is his partner in the business, who's a merchant in Liverpool, who had been on the ground tour, who did have a classical education, and who was comfortable hobnobbing with the aristocracy.

And it's through Bentley that he gets the introductions to people like Cathcart and Hamilton and Liston and Ainsley, ambassadors. And that's crucial for the export of Wedgwood ware. And it's through Bentley that he has the entree to the more aristocratic circles because Bentley is...

down in London and glad-handing the members of nobility and the gentry and smoothing the way and handling the sort of public-facing side of things, whereas Wedgwood is the technician, the administrator, the businessman, the inventor.

handling things in Etruria. Can we talk about the part that is played by the introduction or the invention even of the British Museum? We can. So the British Museum was founded, well, established 1753, opened to the public 1759 with Hans Sloane's collection, which didn't contain one or two vases, but it was mostly...

Hans Sloane, the great scientist and botanist of the early 18th century. And his collection was really about the natural and manufactured productions of the world. So a lot of natural curiosities, but also man-made curiosities. And that's what the museum opened with.

And when Hamilton sold his vases to the British Museum, this was the first major acquisition of ancient art. And it really set a pattern. It was a real precedent setting because after that, the British Museum then acquired a whole succession of other collections like the Townie Collection of Sculpture, the Rosetta Stone, the Frieze from Bassai, which was brought back in the early 19th century, the Elgin Marbles, the obvious example,

And its trustees saw themselves as...

the guardians of an institution that provided the finest examples of art and civilisation. And so it was principally classical antiquities that they wanted to preserve. And those from Greece and Rome, they were not interested in classical antiquities from Britain. So Romano-British antiquities, Anglo-Saxon antiquities, they refused to buy those to the chagrin of lots of English antiquaries who thought this was disgraceful. But it was very much...

This is the seat of civilization. London, Britain is the heir to the greatest civilization, the greatest empire of the ancient world. And so we're going to host, preserve the Elgin marbles and the Hamilton vases. Interestingly, though, Hamilton complains about this in his correspondence. They don't put his vase collection on display quickly enough. So we actually have correspondence between him and Wedgwood where he complains, well, don't bother going to London to see them because they're not on display yet.

which is quite interesting. But at the same time, Wedgwood gives one of his vases to the British Museum as well as a sort of, and he tells Hamilton this in a letter. So there's this real connection between the two of them, but also this idea that the museum is this sort of, you know, sort of the apex of cultural capital at this point as well, which is really quite interesting. Is Wedgwood trying to spread the idea of vase mania?

Wedgwood manages to make it peak really, really quite fast by the early 1770s. And after that, as Caroline said, he has his...

production line and he has his markets and he sells them Vaz's so I think he feels he's done his bit he's not pushing Vazmania as a classicist or he's working on an already existing sense of wanting to be part of that ideal but

But what he is, commercial though he is, is absolutely in love with the technique. I mean, as a technician with the body of the vases, with the technique.

So that when you're talking about the Portland Vase, it's a cameo on the glass with very delicate layers of shading. And he spent years working out different ways that you can just cut to make it perfect. So he's a commercial, but he understands what I was saying about...

this being some way an ideal, that you're reaching for an ideal as well, and that commerce and art are not indivisible. You can have both. It's this ideal of a pursuit of perfection, isn't it, that he really wants to achieve, and it's worth all the time he puts into it. I mean, he's an obsessive in that respect, isn't he? Yes. Did he ever lapse? Did he ever pause? Was he ever overtaken? Did the Valsmania go to fashion?

Well, I mean, all manias go out of fashion, but I think vases remain very popular throughout the 18th and into the early 19th century. And the Greek taste becomes probably at its peak in the early 19th century in terms of the Greek revival in architecture and the Greek style of dress and models for those styles.

of Greek-style dresses that Jane Austen heroines are depicted as wearing. I mean, those come from the vases. There weren't any other visual sources for ancient Greece. So this is one of the really fascinating things about the vases, that they appear to...

vases that Hamilton discovered rather than ones that Wedgwood made. They appear to provide evidence of Greek society before there were written records and for which there were barely any visual records apart from friezes and sculptures. So that

There's a lot of interest and discussion about them in the early 19th century. And it's really only when the Gothic revival really starts to gather momentum from the 1830s, 1840s, I think that it gets displaced and tastes shift again. Jenny? I think that's lovely what you said about the Jane Austen dresses.

because actually if we think of the decoration of the vases, one of the reasons for their appeal is that they're very sexy. There are a lot of nudes.

But there are also many women in these amazing diaphanous materials which get copied, don't they, in high society in balls so that people appear wearing almost transparent clothing. And they dampen it to make it cling to their bodies even more. To make it cling. So that...

So that the vase is pure and ideal as they are, also have this sexy sort of titillating edge to them as well. So when people are looking at them to see what's happening on the vase, they can tell all sorts of stories or they can talk to each other and

They have entertainment value as well as beauty. But Wedgwood does tone them down, doesn't he? I mean, he does cover up some of the bare buttocks. He does. Not all of the elements get reproduced. The more phallic imagery stays off.

We've talked about Waitrose a great deal given the length of this programme. Was there anybody else working as he did in Britain? And was Britain ahead of the game in this? Where were we? I think in terms of vases, but also things like Cameo Fever, kind of just generally neoclassical design, people like Chippendale, Robert Adam, James Tassie. I mean, Tassie actually does the first casts of the Portland Vase and he's creating glass cameo paste and sends...

thousands of them after Catherine the Great in Russia, along with Vaz's and things. So I think there are lots of other people in England, but I think Wedgwood does dominate in many respects, and I think the thing that he also does is he dominates across the world. It's global. It's not just... He's very much...

Yeah.

I was thinking that the Varsmania does last all his lifetime until he dies. So he would feel Varsmaker to the universe or the cosmos, really. And this was a very sort of special badge that he had. It wasn't just the money he made. It was to identify with taste. Let's switch now to poetry. Let's talk about Keita's poem.

Well, that's, yes, Keats' Ode on a Grecian Urn. And that is what Rowan was saying about the early 19th century, really. This is 1826.

And it is extraordinary because I think when you read it, and not to be literally critical about it, but when you read it, it is somebody looking, looking, looking at a vase. You know, he's still an ravished bride of quietness, a foster child of silence and old time. So he's taking you back into the past. Attic shape. Yes, attic shape or attitude. So the shape is beautiful.

But also he calls the vase...

a sylvan historian so that what we've been talking about the decoration telling him a story of a procession coming from a little town of the boy piping and that's you know heard melodies are sweet but those unheard are sweeter so that you can never reach you follow this this story around and he says what little town have you left desolate and quiet and it always will be desolate and

quite. Look at the leaves on the trees. Those leaves will never fall. There's the lover chasing his love, but he will never manage to kiss her. It's just a complete moment, a total world held and suspended in time.

And you can look at it, but it's always going to be a mystery, but you can't recapture it. And that is what art, great art, this does, within the purity of form. It's the whole of sort of human longing, desire and everything held in just one moment. And then it's the vase that sends to us at the end, beauty is truth, truth beauty. That is all you know. And all you need to know. Well, that was fascinating.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Janie Uglow, Caroline McCaffrey-Howard and Rosemary Sweet. Next week, a surprising world, believe this, a slime mould. How an organism without a brain can find its way around a maze and may even help to treat cancer. Thank you for listening.

And the In Our Time podcast gets some extra time now with a few minutes of bonus material from Melvin and his guests. Starting with you, Jenny, what didn't you have time to say that you wish you had had time to say?

I think that one of the things that interests me is how people at the time, in the second half of the 18th century, are so fascinated, not just with particular Greek or Roman culture, but with big histories. It's as if the history of the Earth itself, you know, they're finding out about geology, they're defying the Bible, the history of electricity. Analyses of things are called the history, so that...

I think Hamilton going up Vesuvius and seeing this boiling up from the bowels of the earth is a kind of parallel in a way to the unearthing of the vase. You're discovering things about the past which will help you identify who you are and where we are now. I guess we could have talked a bit more about Hamilton. We spent an awful lot of time on Wedgwood and

What I think interesting is the way in which Hamilton saw the commercial opportunities, if you like, of the vases from the start. He made this collection because he was a compulsive collector. Clearly he was because he started another collection, which he also tried to sell to a British museum later in life. And so there was that compulsion there, but he knew that...

he could sell it and he needed to make money because he was a younger son he didn't have much of a private income only a small amount from his wife's Welsh estates and he was living an extremely

extremely expensive lifestyle as a British plenipotentiary. You don't get paid well. You've got eight quid a day and had to entertain all these endless young men who wanted to be looked after and had to appear at court suitably dressed to represent the British state. So he's always skinned. He was always in debt.

And the vases were a means of establishing his social capital and cultural capital as a young man who hadn't been to university, didn't have the kind of classical learning that a lot of his peers did, and didn't have the land and wealth to give him social status. So it gave him social and cultural capital, but it was also an economic investment. And I think that's one of the really interesting aspects to his vase collection. It wasn't simply about displaying his taste and being a great patron.

there was a very pragmatic reason for it as well. And you gave us all... He said something wonderful about how to live a life, didn't he? Get through life tolerably is always to have something... That's right. I have to look it up. You do. That's right. The whole art of going through life tolerably, in my opinion...

This is him. Yes. Is to keep oneself eager about anything. That's good, isn't it? Yes, and so that's why he was up and down the volcanoes. And he was also really interested in Pompeii. And it's at his initiative that the Temple of Isis is actually properly excavated rather than just bits put out and put on display in the museum.

King's Museum and then everything was shoveled back in again because the Neapolitan kings were interested in excavating it. They just wanted to get fine specimens out to put on display in their museum and capitalise on that and if they found a duplicate they smashed it because it reduced the unique quality of their own collection. So Hamilton has a big role to play in Pompeii as well. What about you Caroline?

Just what you were saying there is very interesting, particularly in terms of the fact that he sort of loses control a bit with the publication of that kind of key Hamilton publication. It's four huge folio volumes and Baron d'Angerville kind of takes over by the end. You can sort of see him moving on to something else. I suppose for me, I...

Did maybe want to mention the, with the Society of Dilettanti, we have these two fantastic group ensemble portraits, which were done by Joshua Reynolds in the 1770s, that people say one of them was sort of to capture Hamilton joining the society. So they're looking at Hamilton's publication on the table. And there's a Greek amphora vase in front of them as well.

But I love this painting because it's got them all there, very studious, looking at this vase, celebrating Hamilton, you know, preservation of antiquity, classical era, et cetera, et cetera. And then one of the drinking and, you know, discussing. And then one of the participants is holding up a lady's garter, we assume, and looking directly at it.

at the viewer. And there's a sort of like wink, right? A cheeky wink. And for me, that kind of sums up so much of what we're dealing with here. Yes, we're dealing with class and being very proper and educated and money and wealth, but we're also dealing with a very particular rhetoric that is coming here. And Reynolds himself was a member of the Society of Dilettante. So, you know, it's a sort of tongue-in-cheek moment, but I just wanted to make sure I mentioned that because I absolutely love... The Society was notorious for its libertinism. Exactly.

And then there was the whole cult of Icernia, antiquities of Icernia. Yeah, riotous, really. That reminds me, but sadly more earnest level, that Benjamin West painted this grand painting in the British manufacture, and in the middle it has sort of classically dressed women by a plinth, but in the middle on the plinth, representing the whole of British manufacture, is an urn.

is of ours. Well, let's end there. Thank you all very much. Thank you. Thank you. Oof, I enjoyed that. Yeah, I really enjoyed it.

Would you like tea or coffee, Marvin? See what I mean? They come in and sell you. I think I'll have tea. Tea. Thank you. And Caroline? I'd love a cup of tea, please. Thank you. Jenny? I'm okay, I think. Tea would be lovely. Thank you. Three teas.

In Our Time with Melvin Bragg is produced by Simon Tillotson and it's a BBC Studios audio production. How can a celebration of death reframe how we think about losing our loved ones? What can bridges made from tree roots teach us about the future we build for our descendants? And how can a broken object help us with mindfulness when things fall apart?

I'm Jack Boswell, and in Something to Declare from BBC Radio 4, I'm going to take you around the world to explore how ancient wisdom and practices from other cultures can help us understand and maybe even improve our lives. I'll be learning about the Mexican Day of the Dead, the Japanese tradition of Kintsugi, South African Ubuntu philosophy, and many more. Don't miss Something to Declare from BBC Radio 4, available now on BBC Sounds.

Yoga is more than just exercise. It's the spiritual practice that millions swear by.

And in 2017, Miranda, a university tutor from London, joins a yoga school that promises profound transformation. It felt a really safe and welcoming space. After the yoga classes, I felt amazing. But soon, that calm, welcoming atmosphere leads to something far darker, a journey that leads to allegations of grooming, trafficking and exploitation across international borders.

I don't have my passport, I don't have my phone, I don't have my bank cards, I have nothing. The passport being taken, the being in a house and not feeling like they can leave.

You just get sucked in so gradually.

And it's done so skillfully that you don't realize. And it's like this, the secret that's there. I wanted to believe that, you know, that whatever they were doing, even if it seemed gross to me,

was for some spiritual reason that I couldn't yet understand. Revealing the hidden secrets of a global yoga network. I feel that I have no other choice. The only thing I can do is to speak about this and to put my reputation and everything else on the line. I want truth and justice.

And for other people to not be hurt, for things to be different in the future. To bring it into the light and almost alchemise some of that evil stuff that went on and take back the power. World of Secrets, Season 6, The Bad Guru. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.