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cover of episode Why great AI products are all about the data | Shaun Clowes (CPO Confluent, ex-Salesforce, Atlassian)

Why great AI products are all about the data | Shaun Clowes (CPO Confluent, ex-Salesforce, Atlassian)

2024/12/29
logo of podcast Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

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@Shaun Clowes : 产品管理仍然是一个发展中的学科,许多产品经理未能充分发挥其作用。优秀的产品经理应该关注外部因素,从客户、市场和竞争对手的角度出发思考问题,并用数据支持观点。他们应该避免陷入内部政治和执行细节中,而是专注于寻找有价值的、未被占据的市场机会。 AI 对产品管理最大的影响在于数据管理。大型语言模型(LLM)的有效性取决于提供的数据质量和时效性。产品经理应该利用 LLM 来分析大量信息,发现共同点,并识别策略与客户反馈之间的差距。他们应该主动寻找反驳自己观点的证据,并利用数据来支持决策。 在构建基于 AI 的产品时,数据管理至关重要。成功的 AI 产品不仅仅依赖于模型,更依赖于高质量、及时且结构化的数据。产品经理应该关注如何获取和整合数据,并将其提供给 LLM 以做出更明智的决策。 企业级应用的价值在于业务规则,而非 UI 或数据模型。AI 技术不太可能导致大量类似 Salesforce 或 Atlassian 的 B2B SaaS 应用出现,反而可能会增强现有企业的竞争优势。 产品主导型增长(PLG)策略对于许多企业来说至关重要,但需要平衡 PLG 与其他增长方式。成功的 PLG 需要关注最终用户的成功和满意度,并建立相应的激励机制。 职业发展应像宾果卡一样,不断寻找新的挑战和领域来提升自身能力。选择工作时,应考虑其是否能提供新的学习机会,并提升自身的全面能力。 数据更像指南针而非 GPS,它帮助你验证想法而非直接给出答案。在使用数据时,应注意数据的代表性、样本量和潜在偏差。 在做出决策时,应避免数据不足或数据过剩。应在数据和直觉之间取得平衡。 @Lenny : 产品经理的角色是说不,拒绝大部分想法,才能专注于少数重要的事情。 许多产品经理虽然声称关注外部因素,但实际上做得不够充分,缺乏结构化的方法和深入分析。 在提高用户研究和调查效率方面,大型语言模型(LLM)可以帮助产品经理分析大量信息,发现共同点,并识别策略与客户反馈之间的差距。 AI 技术简化了产品构建,未来可能出现大量类似 Salesforce 或 Atlassian 的 B2B SaaS 应用,这会对现有企业造成什么影响? 在B2B领域,如何组建一支高效的增长团队,并避免常见的陷阱? 如何判断产品是否适合采用产品主导型增长(PLG)策略? 当数据和直觉产生冲突时,如何权衡和做出决策?

Deep Dive

Key Insights

Why does Shaun Clowes believe that most product managers are not great?

Shaun Clowes believes most product managers are not great because they get dragged into internal politics, scrum management, or product delivery, rather than focusing on the customer, market, and competitor perspectives. This leads to a lack of focus on delivering differentiated value, which is the core job of a product manager.

How does Shaun Clowes suggest product managers can become 10x PMs?

Shaun Clowes suggests that product managers can become 10x PMs by spending 80% of their time thinking about external factors like customers, markets, and competitors, rather than internal processes. Additionally, they should be data-informed, using data to support their insights and decisions, which helps build credibility and alignment within the organization.

Why does Shaun Clowes think AI's impact on product management is primarily about data management?

Shaun Clowes believes AI's impact on product management is primarily about data management because AI models, like LLMs, are only as good as the data they are given. The quality, timeliness, and context of the data determine the effectiveness of AI tools. Without robust data management, AI cannot synthesize meaningful insights or deliver value.

What is Shaun Clowes' perspective on the future of enterprise SaaS businesses with the rise of AI?

Shaun Clowes believes that enterprise SaaS businesses will not be easily disrupted by AI because the value lies in the business rules and workflows that have evolved over time. These rules are deeply embedded in the software and are difficult to replicate. He predicts that AI will either strengthen existing dominant players or enable new platform-based SaaS applications, but it won't lead to a proliferation of easily cloned competitors.

What advice does Shaun Clowes give to founders about leveraging data in AI-driven products?

Shaun Clowes advises founders to focus on having the right data at the right time and place. Proprietary data and first-party data are valuable, but the key is to ensure that data is accessible, high-quality, and timely. He emphasizes that AI tools are only as good as the data they process, so effective data management is critical for building successful AI-driven products.

What is Shaun Clowes' view on the role of product-led growth (PLG) in B2B companies?

Shaun Clowes believes that product-led growth (PLG) is essential for B2B companies because it focuses on the end user's success and enjoyment, which drives retention and engagement. He argues that PLG should not be seen as a replacement for sales but as a complementary motion that can feed into and enhance traditional sales strategies. Companies that successfully combine PLG with enterprise sales can build resilient and scalable businesses.

How does Shaun Clowes approach choosing his next career opportunity?

Shaun Clowes approaches his career like a bingo card, seeking roles that fill in gaps in his experience and knowledge. He looks for opportunities that stretch him into new domains, such as different types of products, industries, or business models. This approach allows him to build versatility and apply diverse insights to solve complex problems.

What is Shaun Clowes' favorite life motto and how does it influence his work?

Shaun Clowes' favorite life motto is 'People don't care what you know until they know that you care.' This motto influences his approach to building trust and relationships in his work. He believes that influencing others starts with showing genuine care for their outcomes and incentives, which lays the foundation for effective partnerships and progress.

Shownotes Transcript

Shaun Clowes is the chief product officer at Confluent and former CPO at Salesforce’s MuleSoft and at Metromile. He was also the first head of growth at Atlassian, where he led product for Jira Agile and built the first-ever B2B growth team. In our conversation, we discuss:

• Why most PMs are bad, and how to fix this

• Why great AI products are all about the data

• Why he changed his mind about being data-driven

• How to build your B2B growth team

• How to choose your next career stop

• Much more

Brought to you by:

Enterpret—Transform customer feedback into product growth

BuildBetter—AI for product teams

Wix Studio—The web creation platform built for agencies

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-great-ai-products-are-all-about-the-data-shaun-clowes

Where to find Shaun Clowes:

• X: https://x.com/ShaunMClowes

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shaun-clowes-80795014/

• Website: https://shaunclowes.com/about-shaun

• Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/profiles/shaun-clowes

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Shaun’s background

(05:08) The state of product management

(09:33) Becoming a 10x product manager

(13:23) Specific ways to leverage AI in product management

(17:15) Feedback rivers

(19:20) AI's impact on data management

(24:35) The future of enterprise businesses with AI

(35:41) Data-driven decision-making

(45:50) Building effective growth teams

(50:18) The evolution of product-led growth

(56:16) Career insights and decision-making

(01:07:45) Failure corner

(01:12:32) Final thoughts and lightning round

Referenced:

• Steve Blank’s website: https://steveblank.com/

• Getting Out of the Building. 2 Minutes to See Why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbMgWr1YVfs

• OpenAI: https://openai.com/

• Claude: https://claude.ai/

• Sachin Rekhi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sachinrekhi/

• Video: Building Your Product Intuition with Feedback Rivers: https://www.sachinrekhi.com/video-building-your-product-intuition-with-feedback-rivers

• Confluent: https://www.confluent.io

• Workday: https://www.workday.com/

• Lenny and Friends Summit: https://lennyssummit.com/

• A conversation with OpenAI’s CPO Kevin Weil, Anthropic’s CPO Mike Krieger, and Sarah Guo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxkvVZua28k

• Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com/

• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/

• Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/

• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira

• Ashby: https://www.ashbyhq.com/

• Occam’s razor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

• Breaking the rules of growth: Why Shopify bans KPIs, optimizes for churn, prioritizes intuition, and builds toward a 100-year vision | Archie Abrams (VP Product, Head of Growth at Shopify): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/shopifys-growth-archie-abrams

• Charlie Munger quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11903426-show-me-the-incentive-and-i-ll-show-you-the-outcome

• Elena Verna on how B2B growth is changing, product-led growth, product-led sales, why you should go freemium not trial, what features to make free, and much more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/elena-verna-on-why-every-company

• The ultimate guide to product-led sales | Elena Verna: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-led

• Metromile: https://www.metromile.com/

• Tom Kennedy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kennedy-37356b2b/

• Building Wiz: the fastest-growing startup in history | Raaz Herzberg (CMO and VP Product Strategy): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-wiz-raaz-herzberg

• Wiz: https://www.wiz.io

• Colin Powell’s 40-70 rule: https://www.42courses.com/blog/home/2019/12/10/colin-powells-40-70-rule

Detroiters on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80165019

• Glean: https://www.glean.com/

Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Kick-Ass-Without-Humanity/dp/1250103509

Listen: Five Simple Tools to Meet Your Everyday Parenting Challenges: https://www.amazon.com/Listen-Simple-Everyday-Parenting-Challenges/dp/0997459301

• Empress Falls Canyon and abseiling: https://bmac.com.au/blue-mountains-canyoning/empress-falls-canyon-and-abseiling

Recommended books:

The Lean Startup: How Today’s Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Startup-Entrepreneurs-Continuous-Innovation/dp/0307887898

Inspired: How to Create Products Customers Love: https://www.amazon.com/Inspired-Create-Products-Customers-Love/dp/0981690408

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

We're sunsetting PodQuest on 2025-07-28. Thank you for your support!

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