Shaun Clowes believes most product managers are not great because they get dragged into internal politics, scrum management, or product delivery, rather than focusing on the customer, market, and competitor perspectives. This leads to a lack of focus on delivering differentiated value, which is the core job of a product manager.
Shaun Clowes suggests that product managers can become 10x PMs by spending 80% of their time thinking about external factors like customers, markets, and competitors, rather than internal processes. Additionally, they should be data-informed, using data to support their insights and decisions, which helps build credibility and alignment within the organization.
Shaun Clowes believes AI's impact on product management is primarily about data management because AI models, like LLMs, are only as good as the data they are given. The quality, timeliness, and context of the data determine the effectiveness of AI tools. Without robust data management, AI cannot synthesize meaningful insights or deliver value.
Shaun Clowes believes that enterprise SaaS businesses will not be easily disrupted by AI because the value lies in the business rules and workflows that have evolved over time. These rules are deeply embedded in the software and are difficult to replicate. He predicts that AI will either strengthen existing dominant players or enable new platform-based SaaS applications, but it won't lead to a proliferation of easily cloned competitors.
Shaun Clowes advises founders to focus on having the right data at the right time and place. Proprietary data and first-party data are valuable, but the key is to ensure that data is accessible, high-quality, and timely. He emphasizes that AI tools are only as good as the data they process, so effective data management is critical for building successful AI-driven products.
Shaun Clowes believes that product-led growth (PLG) is essential for B2B companies because it focuses on the end user's success and enjoyment, which drives retention and engagement. He argues that PLG should not be seen as a replacement for sales but as a complementary motion that can feed into and enhance traditional sales strategies. Companies that successfully combine PLG with enterprise sales can build resilient and scalable businesses.
Shaun Clowes approaches his career like a bingo card, seeking roles that fill in gaps in his experience and knowledge. He looks for opportunities that stretch him into new domains, such as different types of products, industries, or business models. This approach allows him to build versatility and apply diverse insights to solve complex problems.
Shaun Clowes' favorite life motto is 'People don't care what you know until they know that you care.' This motto influences his approach to building trust and relationships in his work. He believes that influencing others starts with showing genuine care for their outcomes and incentives, which lays the foundation for effective partnerships and progress.
Shaun Clowes is the chief product officer at Confluent and former CPO at Salesforce’s MuleSoft and at Metromile. He was also the first head of growth at Atlassian, where he led product for Jira Agile and built the first-ever B2B growth team. In our conversation, we discuss:
• Why most PMs are bad, and how to fix this
• Why great AI products are all about the data
• Why he changed his mind about being data-driven
• How to build your B2B growth team
• How to choose your next career stop
• Much more
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Brought to you by:
• Enterpret—Transform customer feedback into product growth
• BuildBetter—AI for product teams
• Wix Studio—The web creation platform built for agencies
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Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-great-ai-products-are-all-about-the-data-shaun-clowes
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Where to find Shaun Clowes:
• X: https://x.com/ShaunMClowes
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shaun-clowes-80795014/
• Website: https://shaunclowes.com/about-shaun
• Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/profiles/shaun-clowes
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Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Shaun’s background
(05:08) The state of product management
(09:33) Becoming a 10x product manager
(13:23) Specific ways to leverage AI in product management
(17:15) Feedback rivers
(19:20) AI's impact on data management
(24:35) The future of enterprise businesses with AI
(35:41) Data-driven decision-making
(45:50) Building effective growth teams
(50:18) The evolution of product-led growth
(56:16) Career insights and decision-making
(01:07:45) Failure corner
(01:12:32) Final thoughts and lightning round
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Referenced:
• Steve Blank’s website: https://steveblank.com/
• Getting Out of the Building. 2 Minutes to See Why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbMgWr1YVfs
• OpenAI: https://openai.com/
• Claude: https://claude.ai/
• Sachin Rekhi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sachinrekhi/
• Video: Building Your Product Intuition with Feedback Rivers: https://www.sachinrekhi.com/video-building-your-product-intuition-with-feedback-rivers
• Confluent: https://www.confluent.io
• Workday: https://www.workday.com/
• Lenny and Friends Summit: https://lennyssummit.com/
• A conversation with OpenAI’s CPO Kevin Weil, Anthropic’s CPO Mike Krieger, and Sarah Guo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxkvVZua28k
• Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com/
• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/
• Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/
• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira
• Ashby: https://www.ashbyhq.com/
• Occam’s razor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
• Breaking the rules of growth: Why Shopify bans KPIs, optimizes for churn, prioritizes intuition, and builds toward a 100-year vision | Archie Abrams (VP Product, Head of Growth at Shopify): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/shopifys-growth-archie-abrams
• Charlie Munger quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11903426-show-me-the-incentive-and-i-ll-show-you-the-outcome
• Elena Verna on how B2B growth is changing, product-led growth, product-led sales, why you should go freemium not trial, what features to make free, and much more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/elena-verna-on-why-every-company
• The ultimate guide to product-led sales | Elena Verna: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-led
• Metromile: https://www.metromile.com/
• Tom Kennedy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-kennedy-37356b2b/
• Building Wiz: the fastest-growing startup in history | Raaz Herzberg (CMO and VP Product Strategy): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-wiz-raaz-herzberg
• Wiz: https://www.wiz.io
• Colin Powell’s 40-70 rule: https://www.42courses.com/blog/home/2019/12/10/colin-powells-40-70-rule
• Detroiters on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80165019
• Glean: https://www.glean.com/
• Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Kick-Ass-Without-Humanity/dp/1250103509
• Listen: Five Simple Tools to Meet Your Everyday Parenting Challenges: https://www.amazon.com/Listen-Simple-Everyday-Parenting-Challenges/dp/0997459301
• Empress Falls Canyon and abseiling: https://bmac.com.au/blue-mountains-canyoning/empress-falls-canyon-and-abseiling
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Recommended books:
• The Lean Startup: How Today’s Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Startup-Entrepreneurs-Continuous-Innovation/dp/0307887898
• Inspired: How to Create Products Customers Love: https://www.amazon.com/Inspired-Create-Products-Customers-Love/dp/0981690408
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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe