#106. Our Turn To Stay Strong
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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin, and we're back. Yes, we are in lockdown, and we haven't done an episode in a while, but it's good to see you guys. How are you guys doing, man?

I'm talking to you guys. Oh, yeah. Hello, drinky drink. I think we're all going a little bit crazy. I can't bring you guys anywhere. I've been drinking nonstop. I can't bring you guys anywhere. Anyway, here we go. This is the lockdown episode over Zoom. Lockdown. Let's just get on with the show, man. Lockdown. Lockdown. Lockdown.

All right, hold on. Let me pour out my whiskey, guys. What have you been doing all day? Me? Yeah, you.

I've been working, man. Ironically enough, there's some people in the business where they're in lockdown. They're going through probably the roughest time in recent memory, and yet their job is actually to

um, you know, to help and support and serve and, you know, do stuff for the rest of the geo, which is like up and running. Right. So it's ironic that like, we've been up and running for the last couple of years and we benefited for that. Like, and, and, you know, like when all that good stuff was happening, no one was complaining. Right. And then, you know, now we've gone through a few weeks of rough times, but, you know, the question is like,

What if like things just magically improve improve in a couple of weeks right and like we know Shanghai like this awesome place. And like in a couple of weeks it goes back to pretty much normal there's still some restrictions, but you can kind of do your thing you can see your friends. Like at that point are people going to hold a grudge or are they going to be like oh i'm glad that was over and.

you know, wasn't that big of a deal. Just like, you know, my horrific experience, like, you know, back in the US and all that stuff, I thought it was so bad at the time, but I look back, I'm like, ah, piece of cake, wasn't a big deal. Yeah, I think you bring up a good point, right? My opinion is, I think this will have some lingering effects

effects, even after when everything goes back to normal. But you did bring up another good point, what you said first. And this is just the way I see it. It's like, I just think with all the complaining and all the negative emotions flying around, and some of it understandably so and justifiably,

But like, I just feel like, I think this is just our turn to bite the bullet. Like you said, we've had it so good living the high life for the last couple of years in Shanghai here. Everything normal, business is up and running, going out, nightlife, everything, right?

And during that time, while we were living the high life, a lot of the rest of the world were going through some, like kind of what we're going through now, not exactly the same, but they were locked down. They were dealing with massive social division and unrest for a bunch of various reasons. I mean, it was a bad time, right? And we were just kind of like sitting back, living the high life while they're kind of like going through that shit.

And I just think now is our turn. You know, we talk so much on this show about like not getting so zoomed in and looking at something like so pixelated. And I think if we zoom out a little bit and look at the overall situation, overall body of work to speak for, like we've had it pretty good. And now it's just our turn at the plate to kind of eat one, take one for the team, so to speak, you know, and it's a frustrating situation for sure. I'm not saying it's not.

But I mean, that's just the lens I put it in. And I feel like that helps me kind of contextualize everything. Well, without getting without getting to to like on the other side and digging ourselves into a hole. But don't you think what you just said right there is a little bit zoomed in because you're kind of like just talking about your own kind of situation? Oh, for sure. For sure.

Granted, I can't speak for everybody. There are plenty of people here, I'm sure, that are going through much, much shittier situations than we are. But, I mean, I can't speak for them. I don't know what they're going through. I can't relate to what they're going through.

So I'm not. What I can do is I can speak from what I see and from my vantage point, the people that I've talked to. And that seems to be the case. Now, I say that knowing that half the people I talk to are kind of up in arms and like really fucking pissed off about this entire situation, which is, again, is completely understandable. But then the other half is a little more empathetic with the situation. It sucks. No one likes it, obviously.

But they're kind of like, yeah, let's just bite the bullet and get through this kind of thing. And, you know, the other half is just like really just every day, like negativity, complaining and, you know, and just going crazy. I want to poke fun at you, Justin. Yeah. Go ahead. So like, well, I mean, you talk about like, oh, like I talked to all these people and like, you know, like it's kind of like you're giving everyone this impression that you've got this like this, this.

this massive, massive group of people that you're just busy all the time talking to everybody every day. You won't even talk to us. You know what I'm saying? When Howie and I messaged you, we're basically like, when we messaged you, we're just checking to see if you're still alive, if you're still engaging in the world. Yeah.

You're like, oh, I've talked to, you know, there's 26 million people. I've talked to at least 8 million of them. So I've got a pretty good pulse on the situation. It's funny to us because it's not like of all the people we know, you are like the most introverted person. And like, we're kind of like, we can't, we might not hear from you for like weeks.

And then all of a sudden, you're Mr. Social Butterfly just going out there doing your own Gallup surveys.

like just works like moonlights for like CNN and Fox news, like during the, during their surveys, I can see Justin right now. He's already like cocking back and ready for another release. But anyway, um, you know, I just want to, I want to make a quick comment about what you're saying because you know, it's funny. Uh,

I don't know if I told you this story, but I was kind of like for the first, I would say, week of the lockdown. It was just pretty much normal for me in terms of the way I was going through. I was just, you know, abiding by the rules, doing the COVID tests, all that stuff. Right. Everything was fine. It was just what you would expect out of a lockdown where you can't leave your home.

Now, yes, where there are some inconveniences when it comes to trying to get food and stuff like that, sure. But we made it happen. So in terms of my own personal bubble...

It was alright. It was not like anything crazy, right? Now you see all these stories on social media getting spread of pockets of bad stuff happening, right? But they were not literally hitting me directly. And then the friends and whoever I talked to, it seemed to be pretty similar.

And it wasn't until about seven days in, like a little more than seven days in, like 10 days in, I would say. Now I'm in my company group chat, right? And we're in the middle of doing a project, right? So we had a meeting, internal meeting, and we called on everybody. Now we have like some other people and staff that were in lockdown before the official one, right? They're already at home for like a week or two. Now...

One of the guys who's been in his house for a long time, all of a sudden, he just goes, yeah, I can't make the meeting. And we're like, why not? He's like, I have to go get shuttled to a quarantine center. We're like, oh, you're positive. He's like, no, my roommate is, but I'm getting shipped out because of close contact.

And so I gotta go. And then we're like, so once again, we didn't think anything of it. We have other coworkers that got shipped out as well. So we're like, okay, okay, well, you know, good luck and let us know how it is and stuff like that. But then he says some stuff that made me go, what the fuck? He goes, it's just in time, actually, because I have, I'm on my last bag of ramen, right?

And so we started digging in. We're like, last bag of ramen. You mean you have other stuff though, right? He's like, no, literally, if I finish this ramen, I have zero things I can eat in my refrigerator, in my pantry. I have nothing.

We're like, oh, shit. Wait, how are you left with nothing? And then we start digging in. Now, we've always asked him, like, is everything okay? He will be like, yep. He just doesn't talk so much. You know what I mean? So then we start digging in. We're like, what do you mean? You're only in one bag of ramen. Wait, so what about, like, the supplies that get sent to everybody in the whole city? He's like, yeah, I only got one of those. And that was right in the beginning. And that got, you know, used up pretty quickly. And I haven't got any other ones.

We're like, oh, shit. And we're like, what about like the group buys? Everybody's doing group buys. You're telling me you're not doing group buys? He's like, well, I live in a smaller community. And yes, there were some group buys happening, but they always got canceled because they're either not enough food orders or for some other reason. They just got canceled. So I never got any of my group buys in.

Like, whoa, all of a sudden it's like reality setting in. And and we're like, you literally he's like, I've been in lockdown for 28 days. All I've eaten pretty much is instant noodles and a couple of instances of veggies. That's it. And and we're like, holy shit. And then all of a sudden, once again, reality is hitting in, setting in. And then and he's like, look, I got to go. I'll talk to you guys when I get to the quarantine center.

So then a couple hours go by. He arrives there. It's a hotel. And he goes in. It's a nice hotel. It's decent. And then he shields a photo of his first meal. And it's got some meat. It's got some greens. It's got some rice. And the one line he says that just made me go, oh, shit. He's like, I'm about to cry because this is the first meal I have that's well-rounded in 28 days. And that was in the quarantine center? Yeah.

Well, because he's not positive, he's part of the close contact, so he got shipped out to another place, which is more like a hotel as opposed to the big warehouses that you've seen. It's a little different. Yeah, so how he... It sounds like...

What you said, like sparks some thoughts, right? Like, I mean, so number one, it sounds like when you heard this, like it was a bit of an emotional experience for you because like, you know, your compassion, your empathy, like someone that, you know, and like, you know, sometimes you just, you're not aware of like what people are going through. And I think, you know, like a normal person, like,

like here's this. And then you kind of feel that. And I had like, I think we all had similar experiences, especially Justin, because he's talked to about 8 million people. So he had a pretty good wide range of people. 8.5 million. Yeah. But like,

I've been trying to like, just figure out like how to think about all this stuff, like, and use the principles that we've talked about on the show and like, just speak more clearly and, and, and like bring some of the frame, like the right decision filters and frameworks to think so that like, when people ask me about this stuff, I've got a clear point of view and like, I sound credible, right? Like, you know, you can read economists, you can read like the Western media, you can read the local stuff. There's like, you know,

like infinite amount of sources where people are sharing like different perspectives and stuff. And, you know, like I have colleagues in other parts of the world and, you know, they're really, um, caring and warm. And, you know, sometimes in the beginning of the call will be in a meeting and then there'll be like, Hey, like, here's the situation in Shanghai. And by the way, Eric, can you share a little bit, you're on the ground and we really, you know, we, uh, uh, are thinking about you. Right. And so, you know, I kind of just share some things here and there.

But what you said kind of made me think, right? So like zooming out a little bit. So think about the 26 million people in Shanghai. Now, before the pandemic, before the lockdown, think about how many of these people were healthy and how many of them were actually sick. Okay. I

I mean, you know, and then think about if you could take a snapshot of everyone's lunch or dinner and what would that look like? Because there are probably people during that time where that were like on their last bag of ramen too, just because out of 26 million people, it's a pretty prosperous city, but there's probably some people really down on their luck, right?

So it's really interesting to think about before the lockdown, what the city was like. Obviously, there's tons and tons of rich people and, you know, the overall standard of living is pretty high. But I imagine that there's some people still struggling in society. But, you know, we don't always think of them, right, because we're just kind of caught up in our world.

And then like, let's look at the lockdown itself, right? Why is this causing such, you know, like tremendous reaction within the people that live in Shanghai who love this city is because we haven't been in a situation in recent memory where like people, like an average person, you know, who normally has enough to eat is like literally on their last bag of ramen where people are like starving and where people are going through really tough times. So imagine you could take a snapshot

every single day of all 26 million meals in Shanghai. And you can kind of see what that looks like compared to, you know, before the lockdown to get a picture of what's going on. So I imagine that there's just like, what we're trying to say is that there's a wide, wide range of experiences and that people normally who have enough to eat,

actually have been put into a situation, almost like a man-made situation where like food and basic survival becomes somewhat questionable. Right. And then you ask yourself, has anyone in the 26 million people actually starved to death in Shanghai? That's a really interesting question, right? Like maybe, maybe some people have started, but the reality is like, we, none of us know anyone who's actually starved to death. So I'm not saying that people aren't going through really, really, really tough shit because I have friends where like,

when I heard their circumstances, like where they were really running out of food, like I was like, tears were in my eyes at the same time. It's like, has anyone actually starved? You know? So it's like, like the question really for me is,

Like when we look at all 26 million people, what's the real situation of like how many people are truly, truly, truly struggling to the point where they're never going to recover from the lockdown because something health wise or something where it's permanent damage versus just like temporary damage, right? Like Justin, you said like inconvenienced. And then I also want to ask compared to the other parts of the world, like,

did what they go through in terms of the length of time and in terms of how strict the lockdowns were and the impact on their life, was it actually a lot better than what we're going through now? Or was it something similar? Well, I think it's a case by case basis, right? Because just like what you're saying right now, I mean, we can speak from our own personal experience and what we're going through, uh, through first and second degree. Uh,

Same thing if you want to compare to America. I can use my friends or people I've talked to. It could be a very different response than your friends and who you talk to. So you can't generalize the whole country, the experience of the country based off of your first and second degree of experience. And I think that's one of the biggest things that it's easy. It's like a human condition for us to fall into that trap. It's just to believe what we see and what we feel because that's what we can see. I mean, that's tangible experience.

But it's like the intangibles outside of that circle becomes like this, almost like a boogeyman. So it really is. It just depends on like, you know, can you really stop and think, stop and think about, you know, what is really happening beyond what you see and what you feel beyond, beyond your own, you know, your first perspective.

I think that's the biggest concern I have with people's reactions. What you're saying is it's anecdotal, right? We don't have a way of really understanding the bigger picture.

like the bigger picture right like we have anecdotal evidence right we we've talked to certain people but is it truly representative like you actually like we talk about you need data and so it's like how do we because we what we what we automatically want to do like so everyone is automatically comparing you think about it right so some people are saying this is like way like way worse than anything anyone's gone through right they're like because they're in it and

And so like, it's right in front of them. Like, you know, you know, their life has been impacted and they're like, man, this shit that we're going through in Shanghai is like worse than anything ever. Right. Like you, you have people in that extreme and then you have, you know, maybe people that say, ah, this is not that big of a deal. Right. You know, like fast forward a month and everything will be a fun, be fine. Right. No permanent damage. Right. And then there's some people are like, no, there's going to be permanent damage because there's collateral damage. So like for all the lives that we're saving, um,

um you know because of the coveted prevention there are all kinds of other impacts and lives that are you know like um you know lives being lost because these people can't get treatment or whatever it is the stress of the you know the pandemic so like it's um you know it's interesting to to see like how you compare and what measurements you use and i don't think anyone really has any good measurements right now

Yeah, I think what I would add to that is that, you know, going back to what you said, there is no one truth because everyone is having their own experience. And as you said, those experiences are varying greatly. And I think what I would say is that in terms of believing what you see, it's also a two-way street in that if you

Look at the media and social media, and you're going through the whole Shanghai lockdown rabbit hole. I mean, we've talked about this so many times on this show, is that social media is just literally a highlight reel of all the worst, most terrible, extreme situations. Those are the things that are going to go viral. Those are the things that are going to stick and people want to see.

And so if you put on a constant loop of this highlight reel of all the worst of the Shanghai lockdown, it's very understandable and easy to see why people will see that and be like, wow. And I think that's also kind of like that two-way street that I think we all need to exercise in understanding what we're looking at when we are kind of stuck in this social media lens that often people are.

Yeah. Let me make a comment. I want to get you guys feedback. So just like you, I got hit up by a bunch of friends as well. And I always respond with one line first, which is the same thing. Do you ask, you know, are you okay? Do you have enough food? Same thing. Right. And they're like, because, you know, from the media that I've watched from the news reports that I've watched, it's, it's like the second coming. It's, it's, you know, you're, you guys are about to, you know, go down, you know? Um,

And basically, I always write back. I say, look, if you're basing off of media, the media is only going to report the extremes, just like you said. It's not the norm. It's not the norm. If it was the norm, I feel like I would be seeing those stories directly, whether it's first or second degree. But it's not the norm. So I'm getting those news feeds just like you are, as opposed to literally knowing that it's fact-based.

So that's one side, right? So I agree with you on that. Second, but the second side is, okay, well, with that being said, I mean, it is true that there are these instances that I think we all can agree on that are, you know, maybe not so acceptable. So, I mean, if that's the case, then, you know, what is that limit then? You know, like, where is that? Where is that line drawn? You know, when I see these terrible and disturbing videos myself,

And just like you, I have not come across any of this directly or secondhand in my experience here so far. But obviously they're happening. And a lot of these videos are going viral in China as well. So it's shocking a lot of Shanghainese and Chinese residents as well. So I mean, I think I put it through the lens of like...

Let's say, take a topic like police brutality or mass shootings in the United States. And a lot of Chinese people, I've realized recently, have this really distorted image of America.

where they think, "Oh, you go there, you're Chinese, you're gonna be a victim of a hate crime." Like that's automatic. Like you're gonna be a victim of a hate crime or you're gonna get shot or the police are gonna beat you up or you're gonna be a victim of a mass shooting somewhere.

And it's like that same mechanism that's happening, but it's happening on the other, going the other way as well. So whereas a lot of Chinese people, they're on Chinese social media and all they see are the mass shootings, the police beatings, the racial hate crimes against Asians, blah, blah, blah. So in their minds, they think that's all America is. And when I talk to them, yeah, America sees that too. Just like we see terrible videos here as well.

And what I have to stop and say to them is, you can't paint all of America with that brush. Us having grown up there, we know that that's not the norm. That does not represent what it's like to live in America. Yes, those things are happening, just like terrible things are happening here. But you cannot just paint the whole situation in society and country as that. So, yeah, of course, there's going to be...

I also, like I said to everybody else, you know, what you're seeing, what you're hearing about all the crazy shit is just a small percentage. It's not the majority. It's not the norm. I don't believe it's the norm, you know? So you had mentioned that you had a coworker that was shuttled to quarantine. You have your business partner who went into central quarantine, right? Yeah.

Yeah, the real quarantine. The real central quarantine. Have you checked up on them? Like, what is their status now? Yeah. So the coworker that went 28 days basically only eating ramen and now is crying over being able to have three meals a day of full meat and veggies. So he actually enjoys the quarantine or what? Does he still enjoy it or was it just that first day? It's an upgrade to him.

Okay. Yeah, because he actually has, you know, steady food. And he has to stay indoors anyway. He has his computer. You know, he has his phone. I mean, what else does he need? You're in lockdown. You're in quarantine, you know? So for him, he's actually in better spirits, you know? I mean, if you compare it to what his living conditions were before, he was living with three other roommates in a very small apartment. You know, now he's living with one other person in a hotel room.

And it's an upgrade to him. So on that side, he's okay. And then the business partner who's in the quarantine because he's COVID positive and that quarantine center, he shared photos. I wouldn't wish anybody upon to go through that. Well, it's like a refugee center, right? Kind of like akin to a refugee center. I mean, to put politely, it's pretty bad. Yeah.

Like what kind of bad? Can you elaborate more? Because you spoke into him firsthand. No, I mean, he shared photos. It's just like really shitty beds. The walls are crumbling. The bathrooms are so nasty. I could not even look at it. People are just coughing, no medication. It's just a bad situation. And he tested and then he went in positive.

But then he tested negative after two days, three days. So in other words, he was already positive for like 10 days when they finally put him in. And so he tested negative after a couple of days and multiple times. And it didn't matter. Like he has to serve the 14 days. So he was like, it's funny. He's like, he's so dispirited. He was like, you know, I don't give a fuck. It's like, I mean, I have to stay here. If I catch it again, I catch it again. But it's nothing you can do.

So, yeah, it's like, you know, you have a lot of negative stories out there, too. Is he still there? He's literally still there. Which day? It's like day 16 for him now. So it's actually beyond the 14th. So he doesn't even know what's going on. So, yeah, it's very dispiriting. And, like, you know, it's like every time I talk to him, and, you know, I have to talk to him a lot, you know, because we're within projects and stuff like that, and he just doesn't even talk. He's just like...

yeah whatever i'm like well how is it it's like what's there to talk about i'm like okay well are you been talking have you been talking with other people he's like what's there to talk about he's just like he's just over it he's completely over it well that's of of the things of the dialogue that i've seen right again very limited but the dialogue i've seen in terms of the negativity and when an

people are saying this whole thing is kind of a joke. More times than not, they're actually also referring to the central quarantine methods. It's usually about the quarantine methods because they're saying people who are initially test negative and they go in and then they test positive after in there because of course you're stuck in with all these other people that are sick and you're breathing the same air and it's like the whole system is backwards in that

Like, it's not, it's not like really, it doesn't make any sense in terms of why you're going in there, how long you're in there for. And, and like people who are perfectly fine are getting sick in there or like, who are like, like go in there for a period of time. Then they, like your friend, like, like your business partner go in there, they start testing negative multiple times, but then they test positive again because they're like in that environment again. So it's like, I think that is a lot of the criticism, um,

around that i've been hearing is really aimed at the system of of the quarantine and i mean that sounds like a huge a huge failure a huge like dropping of the ball in terms of from an organization organizational standpoint of you know kind of like the shanghai government i mean there's a lot of conspiracy theories out there i don't think like we need to talk about on the show but i mean there's a lot of um

you know reasons that people have been talking about why this is going on why shanghai dropped the ball obviously very political um but like you know there's nothing we that we can really dig in we're not you know we're not in the know so you know it is just speculation you guys want to check the group the honest drinkers group let's let's give a shout out to all the honest drinkers yeah the honest drinkers

We really kicked up a hornet's nest. We really kicked up the hornet's nest. Yeah, look at the honors jinkers, man. Blowing up. No, no, but see, this is why I said in the beginning that this is just, it's just our turn to kind of bite the bullet and

Not just with the lockdown, but with a lot of the division. Like, I try to stay off my phone these days in terms of just, I don't want this kind of feed of negativity in my mind while I'm trying to get through this lockdown. I'm trying to stay positive. But in the chats that I do see, really, really divided. Really, really super divided, right? And

And I just say that I just think like a lot of the countries that we've criticized, even on the show, you know, European countries and America, and we've commented on what's going on there and what's been going on. And we talk, we always talk about this division, this division, this division, politically, socially, right?

And I think that it's just like, this is just our turn to kind of go through that bout of like division where people stand, whether, you know, in America it was like Vax versus anti-Vax, whether you supported Fauci or you hated Fauci, blah, blah, blah. Right. And this is just our own version of that. You know, like there's so many different,

key topics that people are debating right now, really heated debates and completely legitimate, valid debates, like whether the zero COVID policy is working. I mean, that's a legitimate debate, right? Whether how this lockdown is being handled in terms of, you know, are people empathetic to it or are you just like really against it? And that's a really divided camp as well. There are plenty of people that are empathetic towards the lockdown. Not that they like the lockdown. No one does. Right.

But then there's another camp that's just really bitterly against the lockdown, also understandably so. And I think this is just our time to go through that division. I mean, we've been a pretty harmonious culture, especially Shanghai for a long time. You know, I get that. I think I'm trying to figure out some of the overarching themes, right? Where I'm not actually thinking about division. I'm not thinking about either or, right? Like,

And what I'm thinking is, you know, I don't look at it as like A versus B or like, you know, this viewpoint versus this viewpoint.

I feel like in that scenario, people have already made their decision. And so like they made their decision based on the information they have, you know, maybe they don't have all the facts and maybe it's a very emotional thing, you know, and we've seen that division, you know, Democrat, Republican, like East versus West, Russia versus Ukraine. But for whatever reason, that's not how my brain works.

And I don't see it that way for me. I'm just trying to understand if someone's going to ask me about the situation, like how do I not become the CNN and the Fox news and the, and the, and the whoever it is. And how do I, you know, give the most balanced, honest, you know, authentic take on things and leave a lot of room for what I don't know. And so it's a lot of, it's just like, you know, asking questions. Like, so for instance, I,

You know, when you're thinking about operating a large company or even a government, right, there's a lot of different decision filters that you have to use. So like, for instance, if the government is thinking about what COVID policies to consider, and I mean any country, right?

They have to look at, for instance, the science, the transmission rates. They have to look at mortality rates. They have to look at all the different kinds of trade-offs between the social impact, the economic impact, all these things. Every government looks at these things. They weigh them and weight them in different ways. And then ultimately, policy comes out of it. And some governments are...

very balanced in their approach, you know, like without knowing the details, but, you know, like from friends that I know that are pretty, you know, well-versed in this stuff, it seems like the Singapore government, you know, has had a pretty balanced approach and really following the science. There's other countries that really have to weigh the science versus sort of the political implications of

And just because a policy is good doesn't mean like everyone in the country is going to buy in, right? Like, you know, like we talked, you guys mentioned anti-vaxxers. So let's assume that, you know, vaccination is a good thing and it really helps. But just because the government says that the scientists say that doesn't mean tomorrow, if I implement a policy that says, if you're not vaccinated, you can't go to the restaurant. It doesn't actually mean that's a good policy because you have also have to consider like, you know, human behavior and like reality, right? So like, and

In my mind, I'm not thinking either or. I haven't actually made a decision on, you know, and I don't know if I'll ever have a point of view or if I'll ever be smart enough or knowledgeable enough to even have a point of view. But in my mind, it's kind of like, I don't know what the best approach is, right? Like, I think that every government has to have key decision filters, right?

they're transparent about these decision filters so that when they're communicating with the public, they're not changing course every single day. Right. I think like that really hurt us in the U S it was like, first it was like, you know, um, you know, like, okay, uh, we're going to get herd immunity, you know, and we got to like flatten the curve and all this stuff. Right. And then like that,

That turned out to not exactly be true because like what herd immunity, no, like Omicron just like blew away herd immunity. Right. So things kind of changed. So, you know, for me, like how the government communicates, what policies are there? I think all of these things are,

Things that I'm actually just curious about. And so like when my friends ask me or when people ask me how, how it's going, I'm trying to like be as balanced as I can and also let them know that I don't know everything, but here is a wide range. And the I guess, you know, what's the dynamic range of experiences right now in lockdown is probably larger than the normal dynamic range. Right. So like the worst case scenario,

in lockdown is probably worse than, you know, like non-lockdown situations, right? So more people are starving and more people are having difficulty getting food, et cetera, et cetera. So it's like, for us, it's really like, how do we bring some objectivity to it rather than

highlighting the divisions. Like, okay, yeah, there's always going to be different beliefs and stuff like that. I just want to start asking the question, right? I think we love to polarize and point fingers at each other and create all of these divisions and kind of like activate all of our unconscious bias. But when you really step back, it's kind of like, well, how do we look at this objectively? Like if you were a Chinese policymaker,

you know, what's the best way to sort of look at it. And of course we know that in every place there's going to be like political concerns. And so then when people ask me these questions, I tell them my knowledge is limited. My viewpoint is constantly evolving. Um,

I'm heavily impacted like emotionally, but here's sort of like the picture. Here's some of the worst that I see. Here's some of the best I see. And if you want to kind of understand, here's sort of an average. And it's actually a dialogue because I'm like, well, what have you read? And so like people looking from the outside sometimes have a really good viewpoint as well because they can be objective about certain things. So-

yeah that's a little bit of how i'm looking at it but it's evolving like i don't claim to be like none of us are experts but i'm kind of i just don't want to get so caught up in it right i just want to have like a i'm going to live my life and try to do the best i can and you guys know that like i was in some kind of lockdown for like three or four months so it really prepared me for this now i have to admit had i gone straight into this lockdown from the previous like you know free willy eric

I might not be like this. I might not be so casual and carefree, you know, but I did go through some other pretty like tough times and I had to like, you know, go through some of those ups and downs. Yeah.

But just to also, just to kind of go back to what I meant and how you even asked this in terms of like, what did I mean about pointing out this division? I don't mean that you have to take a side. In fact, that's the opposite of what I mean. What I'm saying is, I think like you guys have known me enough to know that I think all this division and

bickering back and forth and pointing fingers is absolutely useless. I mean, you have to have better things to think about during your day other than these things that you can't control anyway and that are above your kind of base of knowledge. What I mean by pointing out kind of this is kind of our turn at the division is that it's giving hope

That just like all the other countries before us, that when we were good and we were, you know, everything was normal here and we were kind of all comfy sitting in Shanghai, we were looking out at other countries and kind of pointing that finger and be like, oh, look at that division. Well, they've moved past that, you know, mostly like there's still division. There will always be division in society, but they've moved past it. They've gotten out of it. And if you talk to a lot of people in the States now, which I have, they're

you know, they all tell me like, yeah, shit's back to normal. Like there are 300,000 people attending Coachella this year, right? And like a major outdoor festival, I'm watching the NBA playoffs. All the arenas are fully packed. No one's wearing masks, right? No one's wearing masks, yeah. Airplanes and trains. They just lifted the mask mandate on airline travel, right? So it's like, like they went through some pretty dark times in terms of that division and they still are.

But I feel like they're reaching the other side now. And that's what I'm saying about us in terms of zooming out and looking at this division. It's like, I think a lot of people...

And maybe it's just the chats that I'm in that I see a lot of people just, it's just negativity and arguing back and forth. And we see that even in our own Honest Drinkers chat. And my thing is, is like, if we just take a step back and look at this, this is always going to be human behavior, especially when a historic event or a crisis event kind of occurs. Everyone's going to be like having their own opinions, having their own beliefs, pointing fingers, blah, blah, blah. Everyone's upset. Everyone's frustrated, right?

But it's like, if we step back as observers, it's like, it gives me hope. It's like, you know what? This is now, and we're biting the bullet. This is our turn. But this is going to pass, just like it's passed for so many other countries, right? And we will get to the other side of this. This is just kind of like a phase that we have to go through. That's just natural to go through because of the situation we're in. But at what cost? But at what cost? But, you know, what's... I don't know. I think...

I think for me, and I don't know how you guys think about this, but I think like, I think a lot of, you know, I think in terms of the camps that are divided in terms of people who are really resistant, like bitterly resistant to this whole lockdown thing that's happening right now, and the people who are more empathetic, I think if we look at the demographic of that,

almost, I mean, even within the local Chinese, Shanghainese kind of residential demographic, they're split amongst themselves. There are plenty of Shanghai residents who are just like, this is a joke. Like, this is terrible. The Shanghai government really dropped the ball on this. And then there are some who are a little more like empathetic to it, be like, look, they're trying the best they can. You know, they have good intentions, blah, blah, blah. But when I look at, at least from what I see, um,

The foreign, the foreigner community and the expat community, almost 100% is bitterly, bitterly against this, which is very interesting. Yeah. Very negative.

And that's an interesting point to note. And, you know, a lot of them, like what you have, even you mentioned before, Howie, is like a lot of them are kind of leaving Shanghai, like for good, right? And it's like this mass exodus of foreigners and expats leaving Shanghai being like, fuck this. I don't want anything to do with this anymore. There's a lot of people who have open businesses here and from their perspective, they're like, you know, I can't run a business if there's no like,

like safety in terms of any like kind of stability here. Like if we're just going to be locked down, how can I run a business? It's not, you know, it's not conducive to me in that aspect. And they're leaving for those reasons. And so I think like, and even we got a question, even in our honest drinkers chat, someone, I forget who kind of reached out to us and asked us this. And I think this is kind of like the bottom line question that's weighing, especially on a lot of the foreigner communities minds is,

is that, okay, well, after this lockdown is lifted, do we stay in China or do we not? Is it worth it to stay here or not? And I think that is kind of a bottom line question that especially a lot of people in the foreign community are kind of facing and wrestling with right now. It's a big conversation right now. I mean, at least personally for me,

in a couple of the group chats that I'm in that have a majority foreigner base group chats, you have a lot of conversation about leaving. But not like, at least I'm not in any group chats where it's like everybody's like that. I would say there's a few people that have said it. They're like, yeah, I'm going to look into options and stuff like that. It's pretty civil about it. It's not like anything overboard. And these are group chats with hundreds of people in it.

I have seen a lot of the bitterness and anger and just making jokes out of everything. Like, this is one big joke. This is ridiculous. This is a big joke. So that's definitely going on. But I don't see too much in terms of straight up anger and some of the stuff, other maybe videos that have been leaked or other information that has been leaked from other foreigners.

So, I don't know. I think, I think, I think there is just like any other news and social media like spreads that we see, you know, you're seeing, you're seeing the, the uppermost exaggerations, you know, the, the worst of the worst situations. And then, you know, you kind of put that into, you kind of look at that through the, through the lens of that exaggeration as the norm.

So I don't think it's the norm. I'm sure there are a lot of foreigners that want to leave. I'm sure the foreigners that want to leave have voiced themselves on maybe internet forums and stuff like that. But, you know, in general, I don't think it's like a mass exodus so far, at least that I feel from my group chats. What about you guys? Well, I think like we'll see, right? Time will tell. Like actions will speak louder than words, right? And for all the kind of...

judging and criticizing, complaining, and just negativity I think a lot of people have right now about the lockdown, I think we will see at the end of the day whether they choose to stay in Shanghai or leave. And I think that action alone will speak more than anything that we could say or they could say right now or we can read into.

And I think that's perfectly fine. Like, look, I'm over getting worked up about this kind of stuff. And my viewpoint is this lockdown is affecting everybody in a different way, and everyone is going to be impacted by it in a different way. And I think after this lockdown, everyone should be making the decisions for themselves of what will...

what would be best for them and their families. So if they honestly think that leaving Shanghai or leaving China altogether will be beneficial to them and they'll have better opportunities outside, then of course they should make that decision. If they choose to stay, that's also saying a lot in saying that, well, despite the frustrations of this lockdown,

They are still choosing to stay here, which could only say that after weighing out the pros and cons that they believe that there are more pros than cons in staying here, and vice versa if they leave, right? So, I mean, I just think, like, we'll see. Like, we'll see. But I'm not saying—I'm not trying to pick a side right now. All I'm saying is I think that's something very interesting to keep an eye on, even after this lockdown, because I'd be very curious as to—

see how many people do leave and how many people decide to stay. Yeah. Like I hadn't, I hadn't really thought about that one. Like in that same way. Right. I thought about something maybe relevant or related to that because like whether or not people stay or not, you know, I suppose like I,

doesn't really matter too much to me only if those people were my friends. Right. So like, I, you know, like as far as like the greater population goes, like, you know, people come in and out of the city and there's always that kind of flow when, um, when policies change. I mean, this is a particular policy, but you can imagine around the world, like, you know, policies happen all the time. Uh, you know, when Chinese people were in the U S they, they passed out the anti, you know, Chinese exclusion acts and stuff like that. And then, you know, I, I'm,

Like in some ways that was probably a lot worse than what we're going through. Right. Because they literally just said like, we don't want you in our country. And then some people stayed and some people didn't. So, um,

you know and like if the economy in a place crashes then some people decide like you know they want to move like uh you know i think some of our parents like my parents they felt like there was a better life in the us and then they kind of made that bet right so like maybe the circumstances were different but like the decision filters were you know were were in place so they were like okay if i get an education overseas

then maybe there's better opportunities than staying where they were. So I think like, for me, the current situation is the value of it is that it forces you to think about things that you don't normally think about when times are good, right? When times are good, then, you know, on a Friday night, you're out with your friends, like, you know, you're out and about, like you're just living your life and you may not have as much time to reflect,

And now so many people are at home, right? Unfortunately, some people are like,

you know, don't have enough food. Um, then some people have enough food, but because they're locked in their negative thoughts, thoughts start giving, giving into them. Right. So like different people, different colleagues I've spoken to now it's like, once we've got that bottom of Maslow's hierarchy. So like, okay, we're all safe. Right. Like, it's not like we're not safe. There's no natural disaster. Like there's not an earthquake or, you know, tsunami or whatever. Um, and okay. A lot of us, many of us have food now, like, you know, finally, um,

Then people are just thinking like, God, I have all these negative thoughts in my head, right? Because like you can't do the things that you normally do. And a lot of people are trying to cope through that. And, you know, you can see like all these, you know, different organizations are offering, you know, like mental wellness, free consultations and stuff like that. Because people's inner voices are starting to get really, really, really loud because there's nothing to do. And then I've started seeing some people turn the corner and say, okay, you know what? Like, man, I've been through this. I'm separated from my...

I know one person, one friend who's separated from, you know, her,

child, husband, everything. She's like, you know, all alone. And she's like, you know, like I've been so angry and so like frustrated. And then she's like, I'm just so sick of being angry and frustrated. You know, I'm just going to focus on what I can do. Right. I'm going to learn how to cook. I don't know how to cook. I'm going to figure out how to cook with the stuff that I have going to focus on work. I'm going to get better at all the things that I didn't have time for. And my own reflection from like, you know, the quarantine time,

Was that like, like now when things are so busy and you got all this stuff going on, like you kind of wish you had a little bit of like alone time and solitude, right? Like how you were saying, you were like, oh, I'm kind of looking before the real lockdown, right? And you were like, I'm kind of looking forward to it. But when you thought it was just going to be two or three days, you're like, I'm kind of looking forward to it.

day two day two of the lockdown he was like you know what i kind of like this guys i'm really looking forward to this day two that's what he had we're on like we're on like what day 20 day 30 it's like yeah that's when he had like a mansion that's okay yeah so like i mean i will preface everything right like i will preface this thing like i want to tell everyone okay everything i'm saying is assuming you have food

Okay. You don't got food, then forget everything I'm saying. It's bullshit. All right. So like, if you don't have food,

you need to get food and you need to fight and claw for it. Cause I did have friends who were running out of food, couldn't get food. And I had to literally like call them up and be like, slap them upside the head. Cause they were like, like your friend, right? They were like becoming victim mentality. Like, Oh, you know, the GFA is not helping me. No one in the group is responding. I'm just locked in. The delivery guy went to the front gate, but there's no way to get my food. I'm like, snap the fuck out of it.

You fucking bust out your door, go down, get the delivery and bring it up, dumbass. Like people were literally like fake starving to death. There are. And I'm not trying to make light of people who are in real like dire situation, but like we, the three of us, we have a mutual friend and he told us like, he even admitted to him, to us, like he was fake starving to death because, because he owns all these restaurants in Shanghai and,

He went into the lockdown. Not everybody knows who it is. You just gave it away. He owns a bunch of restaurants in Shanghai, right? And he went into the lockdown. Wait, what type of restaurants? Like,

He went into the lockdown with like a really cocky mentality. Those were his words. Like he was really cocky. He's like, I own all these restaurants. I don't need to, I don't need to fight for food. I don't need to store food. I don't need to join all these group buys. My staff is going to bring, my staff is just going to like bring all these, because I have an army of people. Yeah. In the, in the cold locker, right? In the walk-in that they can just grab for me. Little did he know that everything shut down. So that includes his staff and his staff even got sick. So they can't deliver him food.

And he finally ended up being like, okay, giving in and joining his community within his building. Group buys. And joining some group buys and getting food and now he's fine. Yeah.

Well, like, and you know, like, and I, like, of course, like we want to apply, you know, like I am always deathly afraid of like saying something where people, you know, think I'm insensitive because I just try to think about these things, you know, and I'm on, I am a sense of very sensitive person. I take things very personally. So I try to, you know, kind of, I probably try to like hedge and caveat things too much. Right. But you take things personally.

I never noticed that before. Never, never. He's so sensitive. I know. So I was like, you know, I was in, I was like, I was in the U S for a while. I got, and then I ended up getting stuck there and I couldn't get back for a couple of months. And it was like, you know, it was quite difficult to get back. I mean, all the flights were canceled and I was in a situation that was at that time,

you know probably 100 times better than pretty much anyone here but i had the victim mentality like crazy

Right. And every day I would just be like, I can't get back to China. You know, I can't get back to the ha ha monsters. Like I miss Justin and Howie. I miss the show. I miss the fans. Now we know your line. I like, I miss everything. Like, you know, like I'm in a different time zone. Like I don't, you know, working like the graveyard shift. Like, I mean, it was like, whoa, whoa, it was me. Right. And like, I was in really, really bad mental shape. And when I look back,

I'm like a lot of it was self-inflicted and yeah, you know, a lot of people know that I went through sort of a tough time, but I made it a lot worse. I made myself more miserable, you know, than it had to be. And my circumstances were great compared to now. Right. So I don't want to like sort of make light of like people's circumstances here. You know, like the, if you have, if you're sick, you know,

If you are unable to access food and stuff like that, it's very, very, very difficult. Some people are truly, truly struggling. Some of it is just because we live in a city that's the most convenient city in the world, and we have gotten a little bit soft.

as well, right? Because we're completely cut off. Like we are cut off from the source of what we do. Like, you know, we, we did shows about our trips to like Pali and all that stuff. And people just like, you know, decided to leave the city life because they wanted to get closer to,

Like what they felt was like really living, right? Like plant their own food and all that kind of stuff. We've become so separated from that. Everything is automated, right? Like technology is so fucking advanced. It's literally like the matrix. I mean, we live in the fucking matrix. You literally can just sit there with your phone and just order anything, right? And you can get anything delivered to you. You don't even have to like go downstairs. Like people probably like the delivery guy knocks on the door and they're like, don't even call me.

Just leave it outside, right? Like we've gotten so freaking lazy. I mean, I've been, I'm really lazy. I get meal plans. Like we don't even have to cook anymore, right? I don't even know where my food comes from.

Well, we've been so spoiled. We've been so spoiled to the point that we're so vulnerable now, right? Like you're saying, I think that's the point you're making. We're so vulnerable because any hiccup in the supply chain is like the sky is falling for us, right? And that's how compromised we are because we basically have no survival skills anymore. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I love what you said. Like, we're so vulnerable, you know, so, so like, now we're in this, this, this situation. And so like, we feel like we're being pushed to our limits, right? But like, we actually can probably survive for a little bit longer. You know, I think you're right, like the vulnerability is, is, is what we're seeing. Is it right, though? Is it right to...

to have to go through this pain even though we're spoiled. You know what I mean? That's the conversation. Well, you know there's the term "tsukul," right? And I'll be the first one to admit to you that people in our generation, like myself in particular, and for people who grew up overseas,

you know, we didn't really have to struggle. A lot of us didn't have to struggle, right? Like I, you know, I know lots of people have struggled. I probably didn't have to like shukru as much as, you know,

As much as a lot of people, you know, and then you look at our listener and our kind of our listener base, you know, they're all over the world, but a lot of them grew up in China. You know, a lot of them are younger and compared to their parents generation, they probably had it a lot better. And so it was funny, like a share of funny stories.

story from one of my friends. I don't think you've met Mung, but he is, shout out to Mung. He is a Swiss Cambodian. So like, you know, he was born in Switzerland. So he's an expat, you know, families from Cambodia and,

And, you know, his mom called him the other day and his mom literally just like yelled at him. It's like, stop complaining. Okay. She was like, you don't even know what it was like in Cambodia back in the day. Okay. Like if two people saw a banana, they'd fight each other, kill each other, eat the banana and then eat the other person. So stop complaining. You don't even know what it's like. Right. And then my mom was saying the same thing. My mom's like, you don't even know. Like, I mean,

It's like how we would view people, like spoiled, rotten American kids. Because we still grew up with an Asian background, right? We've talked about our parents being strict and stuff like that. But when you think of that really just like prototypical, conventional American family and the kid is like that Russell Peters kind of stuff, right? The kid comes home from school, gets like a D and

And like the mom's like, oh, Johnny, you did so good, you know? And so that's like a whole, whole nother level, right? You take those people, you know, and then you put them under lockdown and they can't even, they can't even function. But it's, I think, I think it is like kind of helpful to look at it generationally as well and say like, what does it really mean? And even before the lockdown, there were people in China that were starving, you know, and we're just not aware of those people. Like, I mean, truly, truly starving.

So I think it's important to kind of, you know, and during this lockdown, it's just been important to build, you know, relationships with your local community, right? You kind of had to fend for yourself. It's like, I think the term they used is called 自救, right? But, you know, I think that's a lesson for all of us. Like pick yourself up by your bootstraps and, you know, get it done, right? Like other people aren't going to come to your rescue. You got to rescue yourself.

Yeah, that's a big comment that a lot of people are saying, right? It's like, you know, we can't rely on the, you know, baba. You know, we've got to rely on ourselves to pick ourselves up. Well, that also gets into another topic I think is worth talking about is about, you know, kind of maybe our experiences and what we've seen of, you know, communities here, like residential communities coming together, even the volunteers going out to help.

what have you guys seen out of your communities? Um, and has like, has that been helpful to you? Have you seen people coming together? Have you seen people not coming together and just kind of like every man for himself? Like what has been your experience in terms of like the communities, um, that you guys are in? I mean, I can share some stuff. And like how I like, um, like I, I'd also like to add onto the question. So like, um,

Just so that we get a more balanced understanding of everything, it's like, okay, what has your community been like? What's the dynamic? Because we hear all kinds of different stories, right? But during this time, it's really important that we all come together at that local unit level. And then I'm also curious about what survival skills have you learned during this period of time, both from just

you know, being able to get food and being able to, you know, be, um, you know, to take care of your basic survival needs. And then like, have you used any sort of mental hacks to kind of be able to cope with like, you know, not being able to go out for weeks at a time? Like you've been in lockdown as long as anyone, because you were in lockdown even before the lockdown. Okay. Well, first I was going to answer about like my community. So, um,

I can actually point to a specific situation that happened around, I would say, four days, five days in into lockdown. I mean, I was very concerned about my own personal situation because I'll say it here. You guys know I was on lockdown within a lockdown. So I was quarantining myself from my wife because my business partner had COVID and

He had tested positive a couple of days before lockdown, like a day before lockdown went down. And so just to be safe, I quarantined myself away from my wife just so she wouldn't get it. So I locked myself in this room and which is like the side room, like a little like a sous-fond. And and I basically stayed here for like 10 days. And during that time, I mean, obviously, we're just concerned about our own health.

and making sure we're secure enough food. But, uh, at one point I saw in our group chat, because in our community, you know, each building has a group chat with the Jew, with the community leaders in it as well to let everybody know what's going on and updates for COVID testing and stuff like that. So within that group chat, which we, in my building, there's over 200 something people in the group chat. I saw this like elderly woman saying, uh,

Somebody please, if somebody can see this message, I need help. Right. And I saw like 50 messages go by with nobody responding to her. And I was like, whoa, you know, what's up with that? Right. So I added her and I was like, hey, what's up? You know, what do you need? And then once I said that, then I guess other people caught on and was like, hey, yeah, what's up? What do you need? What do you need? That kind of stuff.

And she basically said, I don't know how to do group buys. I don't know how to use all the apps. I don't know how to chow chow. I don't know how to use like the, you know, to 6 a.m. Wake up early in the morning to like get the shot down and get like the food. I don't know how to do that. I need help.

And then so another neighbor immediately took the initiative and was like, OK, I'll help you. And then I'll order double. I'll send some to you and stuff like that. Next thing you know, I saw all these other elderly neighbors start making comments being like, oh, you know, thank you. I need help, too. You know, I'm the only person in my home. You know, so we found that we had about like five different apartments of elderly that, you know, needed help.

And so next thing you know, people start bringing them into group chats, always checking up on them, like being like, we left you food outside your door. Just grab it. You know, that kind of stuff. So the community and the building stepped up and it was an eye opening experience that made me feel it was like it was a really like a moving thing for me, moving for me to to see it. Because, you know, you really forget people outside of your own circle.

Because when you're in extreme moments, you're only thinking about your own survival or your loved ones. But then you realize that everybody's going through it in this particular situation. And some of them may not have ears to hear their cries. So it got me pretty emotional to think about these elderly that...

you know, then, you know, what if I was in that position? You know, I'm not good with like, I thought of my father. My father sucks with like technology. If he was here and I was not available to him, dude, he would be like, he would be lost, you know? And so it's just, I don't know. I got really emotional about it. And I started like,

posting moments about it, like, like check on your fucking elderly and stuff like that, as if I'm like holier than thou, but, but only because I got emotional and only because I really thought about my family and, and, um, and it made me glad that there are people stepping up to help them. You know, it, it reminds me of something that, you know, I, I don't know why I always forget this and it's, and it should always, always be on my mind. And, and,

you know, it's this, like, why do we always focus on ourselves? And, and Justin, I agree with you, gratitude is a really powerful emotion. And, and, you know, what's even more powerful is helping others, you know, because gratitude is still sort of about yourself, right? It's kind of like, okay, yeah, I'm really grateful for this. I'm grateful for that. You know, that's the first step, right? It's, it's the first step to like, not looking at your situation and turning every situation in a negative situation. But I think,

What's the most essential part of the human condition is actually thinking of others and realizing that there's so many others that are maybe just right around the corner that are way more unfortunate than you are and who may actually benefit from your help. When you look at your condition in relationship to these folks, it's like you can actually help them.

And it's amazing, right? Because when we put all of our focus on ourselves, we become helpless to ourselves, we become helpless to others. And when we start thinking about others, and finding that some small little thing we do can make a massive, massive difference, all of a sudden,

Like we feel really, really powerful. And I've forgotten that sometimes. I have to say I'm not good enough to always remember that. But I think that's why we're here, right? As human beings, it's not for ourselves. It's actually to help others. Yeah. Really powerful. We have to keep reminding each other. I mean, not just us because, you know, we're all friends, but just people around us. You know, you've got to keep reminding it.

It's too easy to forget. What you said, Howie, about your community completely resonates with me. The fact that I have more than enough food and supplies

really all started with because of my community. And that started the moment that we decided to be proactive and join the community, right? Like, had we never joined the community, because that's an action you have to take on your own. Like, no one's going to force you to join. And had we not joined, we'd be completely on our own trying to figure everything out.

And as we all know, in the very beginning of this lockdown, that was complete chaos, right? It was like no one really knew what to do. No one really knew how to get the food. It was a mess in the beginning. Now, thankfully, these channels are more established and I think everything's settled down more or less. But I would not be here talking to you guys if it wasn't for the community. Like they have really stepped up.

They have like the people in our complex, in our building, like we're all sharing things with each other. We needed dishwashing fluid the other day and we like just popped it in the group chat. Hey, anyone have more dishwashing fluid they can give us? We need to, we can't wash our plates. And they're like, boom, right away, vice versa.

We have all these things that we have excess of in my apartment. We're throwing them into the group chat. Hey, who needs this? Who needs that? There's all this interaction going on. Like every minute, it's actually almost annoying how much interaction there is going on because like my phone is like blowing up constantly. But-

But it's great for survival because everyone is sharing resources. I have neighbors that have literally handmade me food and put it by my door. I mean, if that doesn't break your heart and touch your heart, like, I mean, nothing will, right? Like, we're all really cooperative, which is amazing. And I don't want to take that for granted because I'm sure not every community is like that.

And so it got to the point where even me, I'm like, you know what? I got to step up too. I don't want to just be take, take, take. Where now I've already volunteered a couple of times to help. And to like, when there's like heavy stuff, like the other day we had like all these cases of water and, you know, like these like five liter things in these cases, they get really heavy. Right. So we had like a shipment of like 50 cases come in.

And so I volunteer to go down and, you know, hand deliver each case to every unit in our building on every single floor. I like things like that. And other things I do, I help out where I can here and there.

And Jessica, my wife, she also really has stepped up in like really being like a staple in the community in terms of like reaching out to people, helping people. I see a lot of, there are a lot of foreigners in our building and not all the foreigners are that great at reading Chinese.

And so I've seen plenty of people, including, you know, my wife, step in and take the time to translate a lot of things for these foreigners in these group chats so they can understand and help them with the ordering process and the group buys and everything. So it's really, it's really quite amazing. I mean, it really gives me a lot more faith in humanity, right? Like I always talk about like in private, I talk about like, I just have like lost faith in like society. I've lost faith in humankind. Right.

But this has like really resurrected that in a big way. And not enough credit goes out to allow these community leaders. Like in our building, first of all, for people who don't know, there are community leaders. So basically every complex, apartment complex and building is made up of their own communities. And there's usually at least one leader or a couple leaders in there that kind of lead the way and lead the charge for the rest of the residents.

On a separate side, there's also something called the 居委会. And the 居委会, I guess the closest analogy to that for American politics

still understand would be like your neighborhood association. I think that's like the closest comparison. It's like a neighborhood association, right? And they kind of, they actually have quite a lot of control. And depending on the kind of capabilities and willingness of your jiu wei hui, like you might have a different experience throughout this lockdown as well. So they're an important piece. And on that same note, I think, you know, a lot is made of

Whether you're outside looking into China or you're in China, a lot has been made about the dà bài, right? Like the volunteers or the people in the white hazmat suits. I think that's the most iconic image of especially Western media when they talk about the Shanghai lockdown. It's always a picture of the people in the hazmat suits, right? Like faceless people in the hazmat suits, right? And that's kind of like the image.

And I mean, for anyone that doesn't know, the vast majority of these people in these white hazmat suits are volunteers. The vast majority of them. Some of them are police, some of them are officials, but the majority of them are volunteers. And most of them are volunteers that come from other cities outside of Shanghai, and they're donating their own time and efforts away from their own homes.

to come in and try to help people. Some of these volunteers are from residents within Shanghai as well, who are stepping up. And I think obviously with all, with the amount of volunteers and people that we see, there are going to be bad apples within that bunch, right? And I think a lot of the, well, at least some of the videos that we see of some like really disturbing actions that some of these people in these white hazmat suits are doing in these videos,

I think a lot of it is like definitely the bad apples in the bunch. Like really, like some of them are just like straight out, like fucking really fucked up people. I think we can't use that same brush to paint that whole population of these volunteers. Cause it's really easy to criticize and judge and be like, Oh, fucking lockdown. I hate this. All these fucking people. Every day we're doing these COVID tests. Like fuck these people.

I mean, these people are really putting in a lot of work. So they're going through it too, right? And what's really also commendable are the people who are volunteering. Like whether they are quote unquote agree with the lockdown or empathetic to it or not, I think it's like the idea that we mentioned before of picking yourself like, well, I'm in a shitty situation. What can I do to help? Instead of sitting on my couch,

typing in these group chats and complaining and bitching and criticizing all day. Am I actually going to do something to actually help the situation? And some people have. Some people have taken up volunteer roles, foreigners included, and volunteering and at least trying to help people, trying to make an effort to actually put in the work to make it a better situation instead of just complaining about it all day.

And I think like that is some, that is a conversation that I don't see really happening nearly enough is spring. What you're saying is that, I mean, I mean, this just goes back to what we were saying earlier in the conversation. Um, it's easy to focus on that, those bad apples, right? Um, there, there are a lot more like eye catching headlines, you know? Uh,

And yeah, just like you said, there are, you know, my community, the community leaders have been pretty good as well, in general, pretty good. So yeah, I mean, what you're trying to do is kind of shine a little light on those people.

you know, on the people that are putting in their efforts, these volunteers that are putting the blood, sweat and tears into helping everybody get through this. I mean, you can easily just you can easily share stories from their perspective, probably where they've had like pain in the ass residents that are stubborn or, you know, making their lives difficult.

you know and if those start becoming viral then you in the whole the whole dial the whole story changes you know so yeah it's easy to get caught up in that and i think that what we're trying to say is that don't be caught up in that you know it's like you know you you have you kind of have to look at the bigger picture um i mean we can only share our own personal experiences so far i've personally only shared only positive experiences but i can only i can always i can also say

Another negative experience that we've had, you know, so in terms of the supplies that everybody gets, I don't know how many have you gotten, Justin, but we've gotten so far three times during this whole lockdown. What do you mean supplies? Like the government packages? Yeah, those. Yeah, we've gotten three as well.

Okay, so we've gotten three and But in my building everybody's sharing photos of their friends and whatever of the stuff that they've gotten So the only thing we've ever gotten so far I've been like one duck leg and like a carrot like two potatoes and like whole shitload of celery and cucumbers

And that's about it. Like nothing else, you know? And then everyone's like, Oh my God, you know, this, my friend's gotten like tissues and soap and, and, and beef and, you know, snacks all runs the gamut. And how, you know, how come we're not getting anything? You know, we have a pretty good complex, you know, everything's under control. We're all obedient. Like what's going on. And it's funny is because like the community leader just goes, look, I'm going to be honest with you. Um,

you know, our community, our xiaoqu is, you know, it's one of the nicer ones. So, you know, people are a little bit more, you know, well off here. And so because of that, all the food and all the stock has been pushed down to the people who need it. And unfortunately, that means that you guys, us, don't get as much. And the stuff that we do get are the bare minimum. And so it's funny because, like,

Like, from his perspective, it was like he was trying to be like, you know, he believes in that, right? He's like, you know, everyone's kind of like, you know, doing okay here. The group buys are going crazy. You know, we're shipping a lot of stuff here. You know, you don't need the government assistance kind of stuff, right? But then because he said that, you had a whole bunch of people in the building, especially the elderly.

That they were like, what the fuck kind of bullshit is that? Like, we're people too. You know what I mean? Like, that doesn't make sense. You know what I mean? We need food too, you know? So yeah, I don't know. It's just, you can always focus on different stories. You know, it's just, what do you choose to focus on, you know? Yeah. And I think with those care packages we're talking about, like the government care packages, it's not, I don't, from the people I've spoken to, with my understanding, is that

Those aren't, that's not really organized by the government, like by the Shanghai government. Like a lot of it is also dictated. And those goes back to what I was saying about the power that your particular jiedong or like your jiuwei hui, your jiuwei hui have, like your neighborhood association. Like they're the ones kind of dictating like what gets happened on a micro level.

Like, the government is more on a macro level, but on a micro level of, like, what your complex and your apartment building is getting and everything like that, that's actually handled and organized by, like, your local, like, neighborhood association. Yes, yes, you've corrected me. So, yeah, a lot of times in the group chat, they're like, you know, what the fuck? Why is Changning Qu is getting all this amazing shit and Xu Hui Qu is getting all this shit, but our Changshou Street is, like, bullshit, you know? Yeah, so...

Yeah. Honestly, for the government care packages, I don't like the ones, the things that I've been like, here we are like complaining about getting food, right? Like it's so fucked up, but like it's stuff that I wouldn't really normally eat anyway. But, but it's like, I see that as more like, at least in my situation, because I am in a more fortunate situation is that like the government stuff is actually just more supplemental. And it's really like the group buys that we're living off of. Yeah. Well,

Let's get a little bit more lighthearted for a second. Unless, Eric, do you want to add to that topic at all or no? No, what I was thinking was, like, with the lockdown, we've, like, basically the city has had to shut down a lot of different services, right? So when, like, when you create a policy where everyone has to stay at home, then, like,

companies aren't working, like everything is sort of shut down. Right. And then like what I was thinking when you were talking about the neighborhood committees is that then what's happened is like with this

like super duper reduced like operating capacity of the city like people still have to like eat right they still have to like function like stuff still has to happen because human beings have to like um you know have to get their supplies and you know like we have to like survive right so then what ends up happening is the jewish way the neighborhood committees that um

are really the last mile, the last line of defense. And then they have to kind of mobilize beyond like their traditional function, right? And I, you know, it's, I think this is a relic of, you know, like kind of historically in China, like they had neighborhood committees for all kinds of different reasons, right? You don't really have that in the US, but you can imagine like a time when, you know, like the world was organized like by villages and stuff like that. And so you didn't have like central government and all these things, right? If you read about

you know, probably more ancient society, even European society. And so they're organized in villages and then each village is responsible for like adjudicating like disputes, you know, probably getting food, like something like that. Right. So it's really interesting to see like the neighborhood committees then like now having to play that really prominent role because all the city services have been shut down. And then that puts a lot of pressure on the system. And as you guys were saying, like,

A lot of people have stepped up. Right. And so these, these, you know, these basic values of like kindness and like helping others and gratitude and, you know, that kind of stuff.

you see it come into play, you know, and we always talk about blueprint, right? The book that talks about like how societies form and what the kind of the elements of a good society are. And so now you're kind of seeing things like break down and then people have to kind of build it back up. Right. And so like, I've seen some of the same things like

some of my colleagues and my friends, they've like volunteered to be like the Dabi. They've volunteered to, you know, deliver stuff to people's houses. And so it's, I think it's really heartwarming to, um, to hear those stories. So I, you know, like, like I said, like, I don't get so caught up, you know, like, I feel like when, uh, maybe you, you, you two are, um, you know, kind of

maybe irritates you a little bit to see the negativity, right? And I can totally get that. I just try to stay away from it, you know, because I, like for me to just be positive myself, I just have to, you know, naturally stay away from the negativity because I just have a lot of, you know, innate negativity sometimes. But it's really just like, it's interesting to see, like when you have this artificial force that kind of changes how the city runs, then it really pushes you

against everything in the city down to the individual level. So everyone's sort of feeling it in a certain way. And then people are coming together and being human beings, right? Like that's, I think that's the nice thing is that apart from all the structures and, you know, the things that support us, the social safety nets, like we've all had to kind of come together and then, you know, help each other. So like, no, I think it was really cool. Justin, you and your wife are helping out as well. Like I haven't,

done a whole lot like in my community um i've you know i've tried to like at work i've tried to be like you know supportive emotionally with people and just you know sharing advice and stuff like that um but

You can see it everywhere, right? Whether you're in a company and, you know, like a group chat. I would just say my advice would be like, look at all the groups that you're in, either at work or in your community, social media, whatever it is. Find all the ones that are creating value for the people in that group.

and stay in those like people where people are helping each other. And then it's like where people are attacking each other or arguing or whatever. I just like peace out of those groups. But I think I've been lucky. Like most of the groups that I've been in, you know, have been pretty nice. And, you know, hopefully like our honest drinkers group continues to think about how we can help each other. If, you know, if people need that.

And that's also another thing, like, you know, before I was talking about like the foreigner situation, um, as a interesting kind of data point to see following the lockdown. I think another, you know, thing that I'm really hopeful about, um,

is to see whether this like neighborly love and this camaraderie that we're feeling right now through this lockdown will kind of carry over even after the lockdown. And like, are these communities, you know, after we formed these relationships, like this is the first time that we've actually known our neighbors. Like before that, I didn't really know any of my neighbors, especially not ones on other floors.

But now, like, we know them and we're, like, direct WeChat friends and their talk, we're, like, you know, direct messaging and going over and, like, you know, and sharing supplies and food and all this stuff. And, you know, I'd be very interested and I'm very...

I'd hope very much that that kind of carries over because that would just, you know, make my community just, you know, that much of a better place to live. For sure. But, you know, it's also kind of maybe more realistic that maybe after the lockdown kind of out of sight, out of mind, and everyone kind of just reverts back to how they were before. Like I could totally see that also happening. So, I mean, I think I'd just be curious to kind of see how it goes.

Justin, it's a double-edged sword, right? Like, I think what this recent situation has shown us is, like, how dependent, like, you know, kind of continuing that earlier line about, like, vulnerability, but, like, it also shows, like, how dependent we are just on society. And, like, society has become so sophisticated, and we rely so much on, you know, both the government infrastructure and

you know, in the private infrastructure. And so when you like kind of trace your path throughout the day, like taking a subway, taking a DD, going to a place, you know, the electricity grid, you know, being able to like all the food supply chains, like getting all the creature comforts, like we're just so, so, so dependent on others now. And it's all very, but it's all kind of anonymized as well. Right. So you don't know the, you know, the farmer that produces your stuff. Like you don't really know any of these people, but,

And I think there is a charm to like being a little bit more self-sufficient. And, you know, when we visited places in Yunnan and Dali, what we loved about it was that it was almost like that little village could kind of, it's like, it's separated from the rest of the world.

and they could kind of do their own thing. Of course they had the internet and everything. So they weren't totally disconnected with everyone, but it's like they had the best of both worlds. And like, you know, you go to the village and you would know it like within two days you would meet everyone. You're like, Oh, long, long, Justin, you know, and you would know community. Yeah. Yeah. It's self-sustaining. That's the most important thing. It's a lot of these communities are self-sustaining, which is a very, very great concept.

How funny would that be as we regress back into like that kind of mentality, right? Where it's all about like the small groups. Like hunter-gatherers. Like we've become hunter-gatherers. We're going backwards. The honest gatherers. Hey, there's some silence that backs up that that's actually the preferable way for humans to live is hunter-gatherer lifestyles. But that's a whole different conversation.

Yeah. Does it make sense for us to live in these large, like, you know, anonymous metropolises, right? Like, I mean, like our friend, you know, like Brett, like, like he, you know, he moved out of the big city because he wanted to go into like this more intimate setting. Right. And then, you know, like, again, like with, with technology now, like you can kind of get the best of both worlds.

So you can live in a fairly modern, beautiful place that has picturesque scenery, but then you can know who all your neighbors are. And then everyone has a maybe more simplified way of making a living and then has a more direct way of contributing to the community. If you think about these large corporations we work in, we're all so specialized, right? And so like,

Literally, like this person only knows how to press a certain button on the computer. And this person only knows how to do a certain thing. And so like we're like individually, we're almost useless and like kind of, you know,

like completely unable to like, you know, survive on our own, but then collectively as a society, we're more powerful than ever. But then recently some of this stuff just shows how, you know, how vulnerable we are. Right. Like, you know, what if all the power goes out or what if the power grid, you know, someone hacks it,

What if all the computers shut down? It kind of gives you a glimpse of what would the implications be once things become too connected and interdependent. Yeah. I have a friend in the States who...

And he wants, I was talking to him just the other day, and he wants to buy up all this cheap land in Argentina to build a kind of like ranch, like a self-sustaining community. And I'm trying to convince him to do it in Dali. I'm like, come to Dali, man. Do it there. I'll join you. I'll join you. So we can all be a part of it, right? Exactly. Like there's something to this, like that's really enticing, right? 100%.

This is very counterculture. I don't know much about this topic, but from what I can recall, it's kind of like the 60s and 70s. And then what are they called? Co-ops or cooperatives. And they basically created these autonomous communities because people just rebelled against society. It was like the counterculture, the hippies. And I think you're starting to... It comes in cycles and stuff like that. I see nothing wrong with that.

All right, guys. Hopefully, if you're listening to this, that means you're doing okay. Anybody wondering, I think it's clear now that at least the three of us, we're doing okay. We're doing fine. Like we said in this episode, reach out to people around you, people you know, extended networks, see if they're doing okay and see where you can help. Yeah, show your care.

Yeah, don't buy into all the division and negativity going around. That's not going to help anybody. And if you want to help, you know, start taking some action and start actually helping. Yeah, that would be kind of my final sign off on this. Yep. And the one thing I share is like, you know, like we're all...

You know, the three of us are in Shanghai right now. And we know that, you know, Shanghai isn't the only city in China, you know, being impacted at the moment. But like, I've definitely had my ups and downs, like Howie, Justin, like we've all had our ups and downs. And like, we all kind of experienced this,

locked down in different ways and like everyone like there's no one that doesn't have like um you know the down moments you know so like we we feel for everyone that's you know having a tough time um like we're going through it and all in sort of different ways and we just hope that this thing ends as soon as possible um and you know but that there's some learnings from this as well that we can take into it when things do get back to normal like i don't want to be the same version of me right i want to like really appreciate things more

Peace sign. All right. Okay, guys. Hey, should we do like a little heart thing? And then like, is it possible for you to do, like, can we do a screenshot while her hands are immobilized like this? I mean, but this is, this is dumb. Like, why are we like, stop, stop it. Stop it. We've completely ruined the ending guys. The sign off. Be good. Be well. Peace. Bye.

No, no, no. I got it. Okay. Are you ready?