#136. Departures & Arrivals
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I'm sad now. Yeah, that was a pretty emotional little goodbye at the end there. I'm super sad. Like my two best friends, like my real two best friends. Wait, is Eric's eyes tearing up? Yeah. They're actually your real best friends. Yes. And me and Howie, we're just kind of like your podcast co-workers almost. Totally, co-workers. Like acquaintances, really. Acquaintance. We're convenient. Yeah, we're convenient. Yeah, we're convenient for now. Yeah. Let's give the listeners a little bit of context.

We had Jackie and Andrew here today, two really awesome people. Andrew lives here. He's about to move back to the US after a decade. And we thought, wow,

What a nice parting gift for him to come on the show and talk about his experience. This was kind of like your and Jackie's kind of final farewell to Andrew in a way. Totally. Kind of just to have fun with him, shoot to shit, and to kind of say your final goodbyes. And he's been avoiding coming on the show like the plague for years, right? And so to get him on, that was the ultimate. You brought him into the studio.

And he had no idea, even when he entered the studio, that he was about to sit down and do an episode with us. So we're like, oh, we're going to take you to an escape room and all this stuff. He's getting pumped.

Meanwhile, a couple of days before. And what a letdown that he had to sit on this show. He's like, I came here thinking it's an escape room. But that was a really fun conversation. It was really cool to hear kind of Andrew's reasoning and kind of whole story on why he's leaving China after so long, after having spent like a decade here. What he's expecting going back to the States. Yeah.

And from Jackie's point of view, you know, she left Shanghai to work and live in Singapore and kind of her fresh perspective of Shanghai coming back. It was a really kind of interesting and fun talk. Yeah. And what they're looking forward to and what they're going to miss about China. So without further ado, here we go. All right. So what are we doing here today, guys? We're pulling a frog in hot water or in cold water and warm water.

He's looking at me when he's saying that very directly. Yeah, how do you feel? Betrayed, I bet, right? Betrayed. Yeah. Wait, so what happened? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's kind of the word, right? We can ask the mastermind over here. The mastermind? It's right across from me. The two at the end of the table. So what happened, Jackie? So Andrew, our friend here, is going to end his adventure in China.

And we thought we'd do something special for him. So I texted Eric, I said, hi. And then I basically said, like, should we do something? Because this is basically our last weekend day that all of us are together. And then he said, I have an unconventional idea. And he wouldn't tell me what the idea is. And then he said, I'm going to go check with a few friends. And I'm like, okay, can you tell me? And then he said, no.

And then, I don't know, three days later, he said, okay, we're going to bring him to the podcast. And you too. So that's how this all started. I see. I see. So Eric, you brought your two friends here. So what's going on? So how long have you been in China for? And what's, so what's the... More than 10 years altogether. Yeah. 12? Yeah.

I think is, yeah, putting it all the time together. The last, the big stint was the last eight years, kind of in a couple different cities and most recently Shanghai for the last five. Why are you leaving? Like what's, what was that decision like? Yeah, the main decision was related to career and just kind of some exciting new opportunities. You know, family, personal sides of things certainly played into that. But for me, like I definitely view myself as

somebody that wants to continue

like growing internationally. And, you know, for me, I'm from the US, you know, I'll be moving back to the US in about a month and a half or so, which is still very surreal to me, I'm kind of going through the motions and jumping through a lot of different requirement hoops to be able to make that process happen. And, you know, like, get, get your money out, you know, all of these kind of logistics that you have to think through as you exit China specifically.

But yeah, it's kind of what's going on right now. A lot of stuff. He has no idea. Like he was supposed to be on the show today. Yeah. So yeah, because Eric is the only one that had any heads up or Eric and Jackie, actually the rest of us were kind of in the dark, but I want to just because, because I feel like we need to tackle this before we move past into like the real conversation is my feeling coming in. This is just like honest, objective feeling walking in is that I,

I felt a little bit of apprehension from you, Andrew. And it's totally understandable, right? Like if I was blindsided with like an interview that, you know, people are going to listen to, like the public is going to listen to that. I didn't even know. Billions of listeners around the world. Yeah. Billions, billions.

I feel a little apprehensive, at least. And I'm sure he's really glad that you're digging into this. No, no, but I feel like addressing it because I feel like it'll be even more awkward if we don't address it and just kind of go on business as usual. So I just want to kind of feel like... Terrible. I know we were joking around about this feeling of betrayal, and that's a strong word, okay?

But are you nervous in any way? Like why? No. No. Like what I was saying before, I think we started recording. No, like number one, like it's honestly like an honor, I would say, to be on the show. Like I've listened to this before. And like I was telling you guys, you guys do have a lot of really great guests, really great topics, experts, you know, in many different fields. And I was being serious to Eric and Jackie earlier at lunch.

where this topic kind of came up in a different way. And I was like, yeah, if I ever went on, you know, this podcast. He's like the spin fucking master, isn't he? No. He's like such a spin master. Like you guys need to grind him a little bit. Like all, cause I know him, right? I've known him for years. Like the version that you're getting is so polished. Cause he's one of the smartest, most articulate people I know. No, that's why I'm trying to confront him about his emotions. Like when you get him behind the scenes, he's not like that. He's, you're getting the polished version.

Yeah, we don't want the polished version. And this is the honest drink. Yeah. Ah, okay. Okay, and restart. What really happened? And now we've made it even more awkward. Yeah. Yeah.

We basically just called him a liar. Like, no, you're spying. We want the honest truth from you. Now I'm not sure what to say. I don't know what will be accepted. Yeah, the safe bet is just to stay quiet. Well, I've asked you to come on the show many times. I know, yeah, yeah. Okay, well, I have an idea. Let's open up a can of worms here, okay? And I think this will be fun and it's relevant in terms of the context here. Okay, so now you're getting ready to leave China. Start a new chapter in your life after a decade here.

So reflecting back on your time here, I'm sure there's a lot of learnings, right? And it's complicated and probably have to put some time in to think about it. But I guess right off the cuff, like off the top of your head, what are some learnings you think you're taking away after all this time here?

Yeah. I mean, the biggest one is just how broad in your perspective is, I think, for living abroad and then also especially in China. Like you said, it's complicated, especially over the past few years. A lot of different types of situations have gone on and people moving around, like personalized, like Jackie, we're all good friends here. And she headed off to another location. So there's a lot of that. There's a lot of

dealing with family situations and trying to stay connected to... I have a pretty big family, you know, several siblings and, of course, parents and cousins and all of that, good friends back home. And so staying connected virtually and how that looked, you know, during COVID and being able to get back home for the first time in a few years, just earlier this April. You're super close to your family too, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think everybody in my family were...

like maybe as close as yeah you can be i guess yeah like in that situation and that where are they mostly most of them are in the midwest in the u.s um omaha is a city and one one of my brothers lives in a pretty nearby but yeah midwest u.s um it's kind of where they're right now did you have any family pressure to move back to the states

Yeah. Yeah. A lot, like a lot of family, like it was pretty intense. It was, uh, I think from the, yeah, from a lot of different people in different ways. So, uh, for example, my parents who have never been, you know, they never had the opportunity to come to China. I was almost like able to convince them prior to COVID and, you know, be able to like, let's get the plane ticket, let's get the agenda sorted. And then right. Kind of the COVID happened and

the regulations and all that. Several of my other siblings, they've had a chance to visit. And so that's been like really great for them. So different people, like they totally understood the situation.

I think during COVID, it was a lot of like, when are you coming back? And kind of what are you doing staying there? And, you know, it's, I would articulate this to the best of my ability. You know, we would do every simple thing like FaceTime and kind of show, you know, the like, what do I do every day if I walk down the street? Like seeing things like that makes a really big difference just to

connect as much as you can to my life. Like the biggest thing that they had is we just like, we miss you, right? We, you're missing, you're, you are missing a lot of things going on in your siblings' lives. You know, your grandparents are getting older. You want to be able to spend time with that. Like, these are all things that I agree with. It's all right. Pretty common, common sense. When you said you were like FaceTime them, right. Or, you know, have, you know, video chats with them and you would like take them down the street as you're walking, show them kind of your daily life.

Was that like an effort to... Because you said something and kind of like made me think, was that like an effort to get them away from kind of like...

the headlines on China versus like the real day life in China kind of thing. Yep. Yep. So there were, I mean, there's little things like that, right? And I've, I told them that, you know, the headlines that you're seeing are not necessarily at least my personal experience. And yeah, like things were hard. Um, and there's a, you know, as everybody in this room knows, there's a lot of political

political, emotional, lots of different reasons for why, you know, they would be asking me, hey, like, when are you coming back? You know, you need to get out of there. It sounds pretty serious from everything that they are inundated with, you know, on a daily basis. Like even, you

I think it was my mom. She told me, you know, several of her co-workers, of course, they know that I'm in China, right? Her son is in China. And like, they're now asking her and they're so I like worried about you. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's great to have that amount of care from, you know, your parents or siblings, like co-workers, their extended network of, you know, acquaintances. But yeah, trying to figure out how to deal with that for me was something that

I never had the skill set to know how to do that in a good way and to still, you know, kind of maintain my own sanity and, um,

And not maybe that's a strong word, but just be able to confidently share some information with them about like, here's what's actually happening here. And, you know, I'm safe, I'm healthy, I'm doing well. And it was a lot of, you know, sometimes diffusing some conversations and things like FaceTime, sending photos, you know, jumping on some online game. Right. These things definitely help.

Right. That's a, you to stay connected. So I would do that, you know, at least once a week. I want to go back just a little bit. When was the first time you came out to China? Uh, 2008. Uh huh. Yeah. That was the first, first visit. Uh, I came out. Yeah. To, well, it was actually before that to study a little bit, but first time, like I actually, let's say moved here. And like, what was their like reaction early on? Cause like, I think you've been in China in a period of time where like,

things have shifted. A lot of the relationships dynamics have shifted. People's perceptions have shifted. What was like their initial reaction when you did this? Because like to my knowledge, you're the only one in your family that lives abroad pretty much, right? In general. Yeah. So I mean that like not even just a China thing. Like just...

moving outside of the Midwest is kind of a big deal. Yeah, they were very supportive. Like they were like, this is going to be a great experience for you. You know, like have fun, you know, journal, you know, remember the things that you're going to be doing, you know, all the kind of maybe parental advice that, um, that you might hope or, or in some cases get from right family or close friends. So it was very positive. And you're going back to what, like you said, Austin, Austin, Texas. Yeah. Yeah. So like when you go back to the States, um,

Do you feel any sort of, I guess, responsibility at all to kind of set the record straight for a lot of people who might only get their information from, let's say, like American headlines, mainstream media, stuff like that, right? Or are you, because before when you said sanity and you're like, that might be a strong word, I don't think it's a strong word at all because I feel myself losing sanity whenever I get into the realm of

trying to have this conversation with certain people. And then it's just like, and then I feel like, why am I even doing this? Like, what am I gaining out of this? Right? Like if they want to believe what they want to believe, who am I to, you know, push back against it? Let's let them believe what they want. Right. And go on with my life. But then like, I don't know, sometimes there is like a sense of,

feeling of like, well, you know, I've kind of seen the other side. Let me try to set the record straight where I can. Not that everything is untrue, but you know, there's certain perspectives that I think are wildly biased. But anyway, back to my point is when you go back and people are asking you and they're going to learn, hey, you spent 10 years in China. They're going to have questions, right? They're going to be like, what was it like? What was this? They're going to have assumptions about what your experience might have been like. Yeah.

Are you kind of been like, kind of just like go with the flow? You're not going to try to preach or do you feel like you're going to try to set the record straight at all? Yeah, it's a, I've, it's a really good question. I think I'm,

more but like more thinking of having a conversation at least if if that's the appropriate because sometimes people will ask you right and it's just kind of surface level like oh how was China yeah you know a decade of your life genuine curiosity which is fine yeah yeah yeah yeah and I think there's there's a lot of people that even I've talked to whether it's since I've been here or when I've gone back at least just recently who have asked like those questions and

Some I would say some people are very open to really understanding, right, like genuine being genuinely curious about what was it like and what did you see and was it what we were seeing here and how much of a disparity was there right between the headlines and, you know, your situation?

But I would say as a general goal, like being able to go back in my experience, like China, the China chapter has been incredibly positive. And I've just learned so much. I've, you know, everybody has been incredibly friendly. You know, there's little things here and there that are, you know, challenging or big things, you know, like in the past couple of years, but.

Overall, it's trying to be a promoter of China in various different conversations and situations. So yeah, I would try to do that. I'm just literally thinking out loud right here, but...

Like, I mean, this is an interesting angle and like I want to make sure we get to it and I want to back up a little bit, right? So, a couple of years and, you know, short amount of time in the beginning, you moved back to the US and then you came back out. Yeah. And then this last eight years, where did you live? So, I lived in Nanjing for a good part of that time. Yeah. And then what about here? When did you move out to Shanghai? Shanghai, I moved in about 2019, I think.

Okay. That's when I came out. So it's like half that time in Nanjing, half in Shanghai. And I'm curious, right? Like what did you like most about like being here? In China? Yeah. Like what did you, like going back to Justin's question, like what do you learn? But maybe just like what did you enjoy? What did you like about, like what kept you out here for so long? Yeah, that's a question a lot of people ask me. I mean, a lot of it is just the, I mean, you're in society

cities that are as big as like an Anjing or Shanghai. So there's just I think the international element that that can introduce in terms of the diversity of people, the casual conversations that you might have like on a daily basis or bumping into somebody that, you know, is from a different part of China or a different country or whatever it might be. So you just get to

I think see a lot of things that you might not either have grown up with or are familiar with or have the opportunity to do maybe back, back home. Right. Kind of quote unquote. Um, that was a big part of it. Uh, I think personally, uh,

Certain parts of the culture were really interesting, like trying to learn and understand the language. That was a really big initial draw for me to come out here. Just certain I have a little like a little bit of background in philosophy of all things. And so I did have a chance to study that a little bit of, you know, what.

certain philosophical traditions of China and, you know, kind of seeing different places and tapping into the history. So the whole cultural side, I think that was a really big draw. And then I think especially, you know, maybe in recent years, it's been a lot of

I don't just really great experiences, right? It's, it's a comfortable place. It's very international. You can typically go and, you know, see things that, again, if I'm back in many cities, at least in the U S, uh, that I'm familiar with or that, that I would be living in, right. Certain things just wouldn't necessarily be available. So I think that's,

The general, maybe the general theme there is just trying to learn as much as I can and grow as much as I can in different ways. And I know you can do that everywhere, but I think China has really been a great example of like learning those things and challenging yourself in very unique ways in a lot of cases too. Yeah. Can you think of like something that like you learned out here that maybe wouldn't be as obvious? Yeah.

Um, if you had stayed over there, like, can you think of anything that shifted your, uh, your mindset?

I mean, the first thing probably is obvious, but just jumps to mind is back to the language. So going like, you know, we were chatting just earlier about banking. So for me, like, you know, I've had a chance to study Chinese a little bit. I picked a lot of it up just in my kind of work environment and going into like the bank, for example, and trying to, you know, speak another language.

In a very, let's, you know, that type of environment. So I think things like that, right? Like language wise, um, that's probably one of the easiest examples. Uh, I don't know. I think it's, it's hard to put my finger on like what would be, I don't know, other kind of key, uh,

outside of like the cultural space. - What would you say you've disliked most about your experience here? - Disliked? - Andrew has a problem with negativity, meaning that-- - I do, yeah. - He's like a super positive person. - It's harder for me to come-- - You can like slap him in the face and like, what did you not like about it? It's like, well, no, actually I thought it was a great experience. - I learned something. - Yeah, I learned something. - Where does that come from? Like this adverse to like, which I think is a healthy thing.

Maybe, but I feel like maybe if you're always in denial about negative things, it could also maybe not be so healthy. I don't know. I'm just speaking out loud, right? Where does this come from then? This kind of like always having to be positive?

That's a good question. Were you always like that? He's like, no, let's all get everyone in a conversation. And then he continues. You bring up these really fascinating things. I'm like, I'm truly curious about it. Yeah, I probably don't have a good answer. I don't think there's one reason. The only thing I can think of is either it's how I was brought up and there's just a lot like, maybe there's some kind of the nurture type of element to it. But I think personally, I do try to stay very

very curious about a lot of stuff. And yeah, to Eric's example, somebody slaps me in the face, like, that's not a great experience. But, you know, even if something does happen, that's really challenging. The easiest example would be COVID, right? Like how to go through something like that in an environment that is unique, in this case, to China and how, you know, that was

progressing here. Especially here in Shanghai. Yeah, especially Shanghai. Like I tried my best to try to really understand like what can you... Or what can I personally learn from that? And there's some things that you don't like and there's some things that...

You can learn from it. Would you say the lockdown was the toughest time you've had here? Yeah. And I think that's primarily because of the impact that it had on others. I mean, yeah, for me, there's everything that a lot of us here experience. I know. And Eric is going to jump on that. But I would say that

the the bigger you know point for me was just how i saw it impact other like specifically family and then how they would then kind of you know reach out to me and say again oh family that was outside of china outside of because they were like freaking out right yeah wait let me ask you a quick question so like this when did the sentiment if it did from your family start to turn into maybe a more like slightly negative narrative was it like the pandemic or like

Like, were they kind of cool? They're like, okay, he comes back, he visits us a couple times a year and they were cool with the status quo and then the pandemic hit and they're like, get the fuck out of there. More or less. Yeah. Yeah. That was definitely the trigger. Yeah. Because like what I know and I haven't met your family, but I mean, you know, like they know of me, I know of them. It's like, they're super caring. Yeah.

And your mom is like super, from what I've heard, she's super sweet. So she must have been, and she's a nurse. Yeah. And she was just, must have been worried like hell. Cause I can only think like when you talk about her, it's like kind of like when I talk about my mom, I mean, I don't like, they just must have been so freaked out. Yeah. Like, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So what was that conversation like? Like in their minds, what did they, what were they thinking you were going through and versus what would you tell them?

They knew how difficult it was, I think, right? Like, you know, I live by myself, right? Everybody was locked down. And, you know, what do you do every day? And, you know, like, how do you stay sane? How do you, you know, just do what you... How do you get food? How do you get... Like all of these things, right? So those are kind of the questions. And I, you know, we just talk very openly about it. So I see Jackie just like smirking the whole time. Oh, I can't see. Okay. Yeah.

Because of anyone, arguably, Jackie knows Andrew probably better than anyone in the world. So let's get a little bit of Jackie's reaction. I've been observing and it's quite interesting that you talked about how Andrew being positive all the time.

And then I think when you were talking about something and I started to smoke because he's exactly doing it again. Because you're trying to get something negative out of him and he just flipped it immediately into something positive. He's flipping those punches. He's like Floyd Mayweather. That's where I looked at Eric and I laughed. He's doing it again. So we're talking about COVID. During the worst COVID days,

Andrew was in a very bad supply situation because all the group buys happening, the community he lived in doesn't have those to start with. And then when they kick it off, he also couldn't access those because it's all like group chats in Chinese and you don't know what to order.

And then I think there was some point Eric even freaked out and called the helpline, like our company has a helpline, and said something like, "This people's gonna starve. Can you please send him something?"

And that's how negative it is. But listening to what he just said, you couldn't feel any of those, right? You would never have known that. Yeah, it was really bad. He was down to his last thing of water. I remember. Water. I was like, how much water? He's like, oh, it's okay. I'll just boil water. I'll just drink my own pee kind of thing. Were you honestly, did that cross your mind? No, not that far. Oh.

It's an honest question if you're down to your last bottle of water. I was talking about this, I think even with these guys, but I think it was back to you could boil water.

I mean, it's like you're not going to... If you have to go down that path, you could do that, right? You're not going to... Like boil tap water. Well, a lot of Chinese local families do that anyway. Yeah, even with tap water. Yeah, they prefer that. And I asked a lot of people at that time, like on that example, and they're like, yeah, we just boil water. What's wrong? And you can figure out heavy metals and all these things. But that's probably what I would have had to do. And maybe I'm...

in certain cases lucky because of you know a lot of support that was given right at that critical juncture but i'm just thinking like okay like growing up um you know in texas where like there were a lot of caucasian families and stuff and like the first thing in my mind would be like you're in a you know kind of a nice caucasian family whatever right or just like non-ethnically chinese or asian and it's like why the hell would you subject yourself you know i'm saying like like

To be like, why the fuck would you go all the way across the world to subject yourself to like basically a lockdown and then be like, oh, you know, it's great. I just pull some water, you know, like, like what the hell are you thinking? Right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I like, like I said, I don't have a, I haven't really reflected on this in like a psychological sense, but, um,

I just... The only thing I can think of is I would just try to do whatever I could do to make that situation, like, better or livable or... So, I mean, in the case of boiling water, like, okay, to me, like, it's not a big deal. You were never scared, though? Because, like, so Jackie was in a similar situation. I was scared. I was very scared. I was freaking out. And Jackie's pretty composed, right? Like, she's very, very, like...

Self-sufficient. But you were like freaking out. I remember you broke down. Yeah, I broke down completely. And I was literally counting how many bags of instant noodle I have in my cardboard because I don't cook at home. So when the whole thing hit, I've got no supply at all.

And then it's like, how many bottles of water? Because I've got a dog as well. The dog has to drink the bottled water. So I need to give bottled water to the dog. No, boiled water. Boiled water for the humans. Boiled water for the humans. And I do the boiled water.

- Oh, so you were giving your dog the bottled water and you were drinking the tap water. - Yes. - Oh my God. - And then I ran out of dog food as well. And there is no human food neither. So I was like freaking out. So people were joking like, "You can eat your dog." I'm like, "No, what are you talking about?" - That's a horrible joke. Who would say that? Oh, they were joking. They were joking. - They were joking. They were just half joking. I'm like, "No."

I would chop part of myself off and feed my dog. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Now we're getting into it. You can leave now. That's how negative I can get. Yeah, I freaked out. And once I heard his situation, I'm like, oh, I'm actually, I have more bread and cup noodles. He didn't have shit. He didn't have anything.

And I started to worry about him and stopped worrying about myself. One of the reasons I didn't worry as much as I probably should have at that time is...

We did have a pretty great response as much as it could have been at that point from, I would say, our company. And also, I think just from the relationships and the connections that the three of us had at that time and also others that we're close with. If those two things were yanked out and there was no... Let's say from a supply perspective, if I was just completely on my own, like a lot of people probably have felt, that would have been...

I honestly don't know how I would have, you know, been able to get through that. But I had those two kind of safety nets in a sense or advantages. Knowing what you went through, you had opportunity to move to China now. Is that something you would do? So it's hard because you already have the knowledge and everything. Exactly. Knowing what you know now. But yeah. Okay. But like based on like a younger version of you, right? Like it was like your younger brother or something, right? Like, okay, do you come out? Do you not come out? Like, let's say right now, right? Yeah.

Honestly, it's fine. I mean, it's hard to unwind what you've done in the last couple of years, but just try to unwind all that and be like, do you come out? Do you not come out? What do you think? I would say in terms of the China experience, I would come out to probably... I would maybe be able to select a couple different cities. But I think, for instance, right now, if I were to have an opportunity to come to Shanghai...

that would be a really good experience if I have never had something like that before. So like how I think of this is if I were to, you know, let's say go back to the US and someone is considering, hey, same thing, like I've never been to China, would you recommend, you know, going there for this whatever period of time experience and kind of seeing what happens? Like for sure, I would. Okay, well then they say, you know what, but Andrew, like you went through that lockdown, all this stuff. What if it happens again? Like, do you really think I should go? What would you say?

It's like, I don't want to get locked down. We're like really trying to pin him down. Because he's so elusive. No. Well, he answered that last question pretty straightforward, I feel. He said yes. Yeah. I don't know. I think, yeah, the lock... It's hard to separate a lot of emotions from that. But I do think something like the lockdown... I mean, who knows if that would ever happen again. I want to...

like I'm usually, I try to be optimistic that something like that would never happen again because of all the learns like at a government level. Right. And even at like a worldwide level and so many things that have happened, maybe to optimize how that would look in the future. Again, that, that could be totally wrong, but that's where my mind goes. Um, and so if somebody is concerned about that though, it's a good question, but I would still say it's probably like something simple. Like it's probably not going to happen again. Again, like I,

And I'm sure a lot of people would maybe disagree with that. Some might agree with it, but that's kind of what I would think, at least at this moment. Can we ask Jackie the same question? Because right after the lockdown, she left China. She got the hell out of here.

Where did you go? I went to Singapore. Okay. She's just visiting. She's just visiting Shanghai right now. Oh, so you're just visiting. Oh, so you're based in Singapore right now. Yeah, she got out. So I moved to Singapore last October. I went not because of COVID or lockdown. It just happened that there was a job out there. And I always had this. So to backtrack a little bit, I stayed in the UK for a year to study. And then

And then once I came back, I already said this to myself. Within 10 years, I want to move out to China again because I realized the importance of going back and forth to understand my country better.

And then when that 10th year hit, it was during COVID times and I couldn't get out. And I was already interviewing for jobs, but because of COVID, everything had to stop. So then once COVID sort of, I couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel. So I started job search again and see if I can still achieve my goal within 10 years.

to move out of China and that's when my current manager told me, "Oh, there is a job in Singapore. Would you be interested in it?" Singapore was never on my list to move out. I was always thinking about going to London or Japan or like those places. And I'm like, "Hmm, Singapore's interesting. Okay, let's talk about it." So we talked about it and it was very fast and furious. Within three months, I already landed in Singapore. Nice.

- How long have you been out there again? - One year. - One year, okay. - One year, yeah. It's again another experience where I can get out of China and look in China again, especially with all the conversations happening right now, like globally, politically. It's very interesting to get that fresh viewpoint because living in a different country is different from traveling there, right? You live there long enough, more than three months, you get to know the people, know the culture, you talk with the locals.

or the international group over here. And then you start to hear different things about China. And that's where I feel like, yes, that's why I want to come out. And I'm glad I made it. - So can you share some of your learnings or the change in your view of this country after having lived in Singapore? What's that conversation like?

The most direct experience I had was actually on this trip back. So I landed in Shanghai a week ago and we went to a wedding, a friend's wedding. And it was a long travel day for me and I had makeup on and I realized I didn't bring any face wash. Somebody reminded me, hey, you can get it on Erlema. And if you order it, it could probably arrive within 30 minutes. I forgot about that because it would never happen in Singapore.

And I told my friend, I'm glad you reminded me. And I ordered and stuff arrived. It's all correct all on time. And I was amazed. I thought Singapore isn't that fast. No, my delivery, I don't know if it's me being unlucky or anything. My delivery experience was really bad. I ordered something from Amazon Fresh. It came in and it's molded.

They're on mode on it, yeah. Because it's too wet and too humid. And then whenever I order takeout, either came in late, came in wrong, or my stuff got spilled, or it's incomplete. It's just, it's terrible. So when I had that experience again, coming back, I'm like, oh my God, this is... Like, I knew how advanced this, when I was moving out, I knew I'm going to miss Taobao, I'm going to miss Erlema. But when I experienced that all over again...

I'm like, wow, like Shanghai is really, or China is really at the forefront of all these things. And it just, I don't know how other countries could catch up. You know, even Hong Kong. Like when I was in Hong Kong, I'm ordering, you're making that face. No, no, no, because that was, okay. The exact same thing, right? When I was in Hong Kong, I would order a delivery thinking that it would be the similar experience to here. Well, first of all, the menu system was horrible. Like the ordering menu system like sucked. Yeah.

And then whenever the delivery came, it was always like this battle with the delivery guy of understanding what he was saying and just being like really not cooperative. And I was like, this is horrible. Like ordering delivery food in Hong Kong was not a pleasant experience. I was laughing because I literally –

um yesterday i spent the day my cousin from hong kong visited me um and she grew up in hong kong all her life she has a family there now um but she rarely comes to shanghai right like they just never really came here um so she arrived the day before but i met up with her yesterday she left today so she was only here for two days she brought her kid and um

Yeah, it was the same experience because I took her to like Dongsan Park and I took her around and we, you know, we had brunch and everything like that. And we were talking and, you know, I'm just showing her the city and thinking nothing of it. And, you know, because she lived all her life in Hong Kong, so she knows what's up, right? And I thought like she, I almost thought like, okay, people in Hong Kong,

they probably have a better understanding of, let's say, a city like Shanghai or mainland China than maybe most people abroad, right? Because just of the proximity factor, the cultural factor. Mm-hmm.

But the more like I interact with a lot of Hong Kong people who don't normally travel here, they actually don't. So to them, when they come here, it's also like very eyeopening because like this, she's lived in Hong Kong all her life. Just stones throw away from me right here. Right? Like, and she's coming here. She's like, Oh my God, this is like,

Oh my God, it's so advanced here. Oh my God, it's so much cleaner here. Oh my God, the landscaping on the streets is so much better here. And I'm like, what do you mean? I love Hong Kong, right? Because I genuinely love Hong Kong. And I'm like, but isn't it pretty good there too? I didn't feel like there was that huge of a difference there.

But apparently for people who spend their whole lives there, they come here and they do feel that impact. Just like you're saying, Jackie, that kind of putting things into perspective a little bit and then you start appreciating a little bit more. Yeah, that's actually one of the reflections I had about going around to other places and then you realize a lot of things that you were taken for granted.

Because I've been living here my entire life. I've lived in China since I was born. And I didn't quite realize, like, it's fortunate that you can just have a delivery at your door within 30 minutes and everything's fresh and prepared until I leave the country. And when I left, I knew it's probably going to be worse. But when I actually experienced the difference, it really struck me.

And that's where I realized, yeah, it's like people need to experience this because a lot of stuff they read on, I mean, like people outside of China, a lot of stuff they read on the media, it might not be talking about how fast the delivery is. It might be something else that's more serious, right? And then to the question that they asked you, Andrew, earlier, would you recommend anybody to come over? I'd say yes, because visiting and living in a different place is different.

And if you're just visiting, especially when you don't have locals to take you around, you don't realize the apps people interact with every day, the way they get around every day. Because you're just here for a few days to do all the touristy stuff. So for me, I'd say yes. Like even lockdown happened again, I would still say yes. Because horrible things could happen anywhere in the world. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say...

There are lots of headlines and I like to look at things more holistically, right? But it's important to understand the day-to-day because that's what people experience. Because the headlines are going to be...

chess pieces that different countries and governments are playing against each other and large corporations. And then there's the real world, the day-to-day. And what is that like? And so I don't think what we're saying is, oh, if you have faster delivery, it automatically means society is good. But if you have faster delivery, it means that people have to work together. There has to be technology. There has to be companies. There has to be a focus on what people need. And that represents, then you can sort of infer some things

from that whole process, right? And then what is the actual day-to-day like? I think that's all really important. - Yeah, that's actually a really good point. I never really even thought about it that way because I was gonna say like, oh, the counter argument to that is people listening might be like, you guys are talking about fricking food delivery. And we were talking about like you almost starving from a lockdown. Like how can you even compare the two in terms of negatives and positives, right? And I totally get that.

But like Eric, like we were saying, I think totally makes sense. Like we're not exactly saying that we're not saying, oh, just because you can get your food on time and without much problem here means everything's good. Not at all. But it does infer and you can extrapolate a lot of things from that. What has to come into play to build a society that has something like that? What is that kind of signal about a certain society? Yeah.

for sure. - And both sides. - Yeah, for sure. - What does it signal about a society that, okay, yes, we were safe for several years, like life was totally normal, but then there was a really hard period of time where we basically took, we collapsed that three year bad experience that other places had into like a much more condensed period of time. - Well, three years like condensed into three months. - Yeah, and you can argue, 'cause like, I think like for many of us, it was really, really harsh, but I don't think we have,

too much trauma from it. But I think when you, you know, when you lengthen it,

two, three years, although not as harsh, I think that actually caused arguably more issues. But even so, like the negative of being locked down and all that stuff, then what can you infer from that? And then, like, you know, it's both sides. It's good and bad, right? So we're not arguing. Both sides of the coin. Yeah, we're not arguing that any place is better than the other. We're arguing that probably every place is trying in some way, one thing they're trying to do is make lives better.

But they're also trying to do other things. Don't get me wrong, right? Every government is trying to do something. But there is that focus. And then you can kind of decide like, well, what's the merit and the trade-offs of the strategy? Every structure and strategy leads to different outcomes. And those outcomes are in some ways contextual to the environment. What would work in the US is not going to work here and probably vice versa, right? Because the expectations of people who live there are completely different.

but traveling back and forth in different places, then you get that perspective. And I think more people in China need to leave China so that they understand China better. And this goes back to Frank Tsai's, right? East learning, I think it was Frank. East- Yes, it was Frank. Yeah, East like learning more about the East from dialogue with the West and West learning more about the West itself through dialogue with the East and learning more about each other. Because we see when that breaks down and you see the conflict now, it's just-

it's horrendous what's happening in the world. And it's not only Chinese, but I think everyone, like it's this term, you know, I bring up, have we brought up repetitively on this show, um,

And what you were saying earlier, Andrew, triggered me about it. And what you were saying was, I think, really insightful, Jackie, in terms of your experience. It's really this cross-pollination, right? Like the whole world cross-pollinating. And unfortunately, I feel like we're seeing that less and less in the current kind of iteration of the world right now. But who knows? I have confidence that that's going to change, as it always does. These things fluctuate constantly.

through time, right? And like going back to the bigger, larger discussion we were having in terms of like, would you recommend someone to go to a certain place, right? And what would be the factors in your decision to advise someone yes or no about that? And I love what you both of you were saying, both Andrew and Jackie. And it's just, I think the honest answer is like, if the person's motive is to broaden their horizons, right?

gain some life experience, bring some new perspective in terms of their worldview. It doesn't matter so much if the place is like good or bad. That's not even the way to put it. Like if, I mean, I think, okay, here's the way to put it. I would recommend someone go

as long as it's not like life-threatening to go there, right? If the place is not in a state of like actual war where it would literally be life-threatening for you to go. Even if a place you go and it would be like generally for most people a negative experience,

And they wanted to go, I'd probably still advise them to do that if it wasn't life-threatening because that still builds character. That probably expands your worldview even more so than going to a place that's similar to where you came from, that has all the life's comforts that you're normally used to. It's like, no, go outside your comfort zone. See how the other half lives in this world, or more than half, the majority really lives in this world. And experience that. It could be harsh. It could suck.

That's good, right? And I think that would probably play a role even more so advising someone like if I were, you know, my son, you know, when he grows old enough, I don't think I would protect him from quote unquote hard places to be as long as it's not life threatening. I'd agree. While you're saying that, I was actually curious, what brought you three to China?

Have you ever talked about that in the show? I came out here because I was ignorant. I didn't really know what the hell was going on. I came out here for very shallow and superficial reasons that then turned into much deeper and more significant, meaningful reasons. I came out here just out of curiosity, right? And my family coming from this part of the world probably had some factor in it.

You know, like if like, I don't know, I have friends that have been in Russia, I've been in other places, right? Would I have stayed this long, you know, if I didn't have a deeper connection? It's hard to say.

right? It's much harder. I mean, Andrew, you can probably relate to that, right? It's easier when you know that you have some type of roots here. But I came out of, I came out here just dumb luck and I'm one of the best decisions I ever made, you know? But then it also then makes me think about, we've talked about this, what's next, right? Do I want to go back to my comfort zone or should I actually push myself and make this part of like who I am? But family really factors into it as well. So part of me is like, I should just keep pushing myself.

You know, we should move to other countries. And then part of me is like, well, no, like, I've got to, you know, cherish the time that I have left with my parents and the rest of the family, you know, and I think probably something weighing heavily on Andrew's mind as well.

Yeah. Family is, I guess it's always one of the priorities, right? But, uh, yeah, you know, over, even over the past couple of years to see grandparents getting older, right? Parents getting old, like people just going through different things. Um, like,

like one of the things I think about and I do regret, but it wasn't something that I can necessarily control. One of my younger brothers got married over COVID and, you know, I wasn't able to go back. And, you know, everybody's like, oh, we, we totally understand, you know, it's fine as much as it can be. But then, you know, I find myself sitting here,

here and thinking about the future and like yeah that was a moment in time that it does have a you know ripple kind of lasting impact you know over the years and this again you can't really control these things but i think yeah just kind of going back to what eric was saying like family definitely is you know uh priority something that uh is is

you know, driving a lot of decisions, whether it's me, you know, being able to move back and look at different opportunities in different locations, um, or just, you know, how you in general stay connected, um, as much as you can, regardless of where you are. Yeah. Jackie, what do you think?

- I still wanna ask about Justin and Howie's experience. 'Cause just being, let me back myself up a little bit 'cause that question could seem a little bit weird. - Welcome to the Jackie Show. - Yeah. - What's up everybody, I'm Jackie. - If you're liking the show, please rate, comment or subscribe. - I was born and raised here and the city I came from, it's really rare to see like a aspect, expect.

or even like a foreign face. So the way I grew up, I always think- - They have dinosaurs though. - Yeah, but we have dinosaurs. - Changzhou. - Changzhou. - Yeah. So when I first came to Shanghai, I think it was high school, my mom took me here and I was like, "Oh, there are people actually look different."

Like just the face is different. The skin color is different. The eyes are different and they are taller and they look better. I mean, I see them in TV, but I never saw them in person. So when I graduate from high school, we have to like choose, we have to enter the college entrance exam and I have to pick like which schools I want to go. I picked all the schools in Shanghai because I want that experience again because I knew there was something there that's unknown and that excites me.

And that's how I came over. And since I landed in Shanghai, I'm always curious on why people come here, especially when you're not in this country. Like, why would you come here? And why would you come here and stay here? And then I had this another interesting experience. When I was second year in my college, I was lucky enough to be able to go to the University of San Diego.

What? You never told me that. You were in San Diego? Yeah, yeah. What? Do you know this, Andrew? I feel betrayed. Just a short study tour. It's not like an official thing. And that's where I see people with different hair colors. Like they dye their hair in green. And I came from a family that my mom would absolutely kill me if I dyed my hair in green.

And there are people like doing skateboarding in the school. I'm like, oh, that's not my college life. Is that when you got your tattoo? No. That's a different story. That's a different story. Mrs. Wong, your daughter has a tattoo.

And once I came back, I started to realize that the world is not just the six square feet in front of me in the dormitory. And there is a whole different world out there. I wonder like people in different time zones, what are they doing? People in different countries, what are they doing? So that curiosity gets stronger and stronger. So whenever I meet people like Andrew, like Eric, like you all coming to China, I also always wanted to know like what will make you stronger?

come here and how did they feel when you land and you step out of that plane and you smell the air yeah what was it like you know and we'll give them a chance to answer the question but like i want to touch on your point it it's curiosity right and i think some people are driven by curiosity and i recently thought about another word called another word we all know discovery

And it's the thrill of discovery. It's not just curiosity. It's because people can be curious about a lot of different things, but it's that hunt, that chase. And when you've experienced it, that discovery is something novel.

And it might not be novel to people, but it's novel to you. And that's what's so cool about discovery and curiosity is because it's so personal to you. Right? And so for you, like just coming to Shanghai and then you get a taste of that and then you want more. And I think we should never let go of that feeling because I think that arguably like discovery is what drives like human beings to get better.

Back to you, to our guest host today, Jackie. Okay, I'll go then. One of the things that I realized when I first came to Shanghai, and I was coming back in the early 2000s, my mom wanted me to come much earlier. And I was saying, hell no. Because I was like, what the hell is this place? To be honest, I'm being honest here, okay? Living in New York City, I came to Shanghai, I was like, whoa, way too different. This is not my thing. You know, I can't do it. Plus, I didn't speak Chinese.

And it wasn't until I had a job opportunity in Hong Kong, actually. And then they needed me to speak Mandarin and I couldn't speak Mandarin. So my mom was living in Shanghai. She's like, if you don't learn Mandarin, come to Shanghai. So I was like, all right, fine. I'll come for like half a year, you know? And it was not by choice. I moved here and started learning. I got a tutor and started learning Mandarin. But honestly, it was still very different than what I knew back in New York. But that's what got me.

And to go with what Justin was saying, that was getting out of my comfort zone. And at that time, we were just starting with the VPN thing and Facebook getting blocked, YouTube getting blocked. I had this whole plan to create this blog so all my friends back in New York can see me day to day on my Facebook and whatever. Yeah, that plan went out the window. You were going to rage against the system, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was out the window. But what kept me here and what got me really interested was that

As Eric said, this discovery, you feel like you discovered this place where this energy, this enthusiasm is just intrinsic in everybody you meet. And all of a sudden it's bleeding into me and I couldn't leave.

And that's one of the things that was so powerful. And we joke about it in the sense of, yeah, clubbing and like whatever. That's the smallest part of it, honestly. Because I really feel like you're looking at me like you don't believe me, Eric. I know you so well. In your brain, you're like, I just have- No, no, no, no, no, no.

Keep going. Honestly, it's the smallest part of it, but it took up most of our time. We were young. No, but just in general, I think also had to do with the work that I was doing. But it's just meeting a lot of people. I was learning Chinese. I was using it as much as possible every day. And

That in itself was polar opposite to my day-to-day living back in New York. And I think that was interesting because one of the reasons why I decided to leave New York is because I quit my job, I broke up my long-term girlfriend, and I felt like everything was kind of like in this place where I was just not excited. And the fact that I flipped everything around and was able to live, quote unquote, a different life, that's what was exciting, you know? Yeah, and...

I mean, like we're being really positive here, so we'll have to be negative in a second. But like learning new things every single day, I think that is the exciting piece.

wherever you are, right? It's like pushing yourself, learning new things. And I think like China, Shanghai, the last 10, 15 years has been that crucible of experiments, of experimentation. And well, the most important reason, meeting Justin and me. Yeah, but honestly, so I want to- Discovering new friends, one-on-one friends. And one of the things I want to link up again with the original question I had-

a previous one of would you recommend coming back again now knowing what you know and comparing to what life was like when you first came to now.

The reason I say that is because I feel like Shanghai now, even though it is quite technologically advanced, as Jackie just mentioned with amazing delivery and stuff like that. And for me, it's more about Shanghai is probably closer to what I would imagine what New York was when I first came. Forget about technology and stuff like that. But just in terms of...

the feeling of international, the high level cuisine, you know, the art, all that stuff. It's closer to a standard that I would, if I was back in 2007, when I moved here, I would be like, oh, I, uh,

Yeah, no problem. I can move to Shanghai. I wouldn't think about it because it would just be like- It wouldn't be a- Yeah, so the most to me would be like, okay, I'll come. I'll just learn Chinese. That's my main factor. As opposed to coming here at that time, adventure. Like every day was an adventure. And part of that adventure is because every life, day-to-day life was so different than what you knew. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, no, no, absolutely. I mean, especially in our context of where we were at that specific time, coming to Shanghai in that specific time, that era. I mean, we say this all the time like that.

And I still believe this. Like that was the golden age to be in Shanghai was that period of time from like maybe like 09, you know, several years after. Right. And I feel like certainly the city objectively, if you look at it, it's definitely different. And subjectively, it definitely feels different. Right. And not different in a worse way, just different. Right. And like, and it reminds me of like what Jackie, you were saying earlier, because you were talking about your short stint a while back in San Diego.

And you were talking about the difference. You're like, oh my God, like I saw like people with like dyed green hair, they were skateboarding. And I was just thinking, wait, if you walk down, if you go outside our studio right now and walk down Chang Le Lu in Shanghai, you will see kids with dyed green hair skateboarding, right? So it's like, so it's like, okay, well, let's put things into perspective a little bit. Yes, it's different from our quote unquote golden age from us like oldies who've like been here and we still reminisce all the good old days, right?

But if you look at it now, the culture, the young culture here has changed a lot, has gotten a lot more progressive. And I'm speaking just for Shanghai, right? But this trickles throughout China as a country. But obviously, these kind of things happen in the more metropolitan places first. They kind of set the trends. So you see that. You see exactly what you saw before in San Diego, now here. And it's just, I don't know. I don't know what the larger point is. I'm not trying to make a point. I'm just saying...

These things do progress, and maybe some of it is just us not always keeping up with all the changes, and we get stuck on the good old days, right? And we're not really in the cut to really understand how the city is really evolving still.

Yeah. Because we're just not part of it. We're not linked, hooked into the city and the pulse of the city like we used to be, right? When we used to go out all the time. We're not. We're homebodies, right? We just don't know. Well, Jackie, what's your impression of things? Like we were just walking around a little bit, right? What's your impression? Like coming back this time, you see any changes? Like, you know, does anything stand out to you this time?

I definitely noticed a lot of restaurants come and goes. I think there are definitely places that was closed during COVID, but maybe a few weeks later, there is a new place coming. And the number of new place that I saw, just the walk that we just went on, is more than...

the new places that I saw in the US with the trip that I just went. What do you mean? New places that are open? Yes. Let me make it more specific. I went to the US right before COVID and then I came back again a few months ago.

And I do realize there is this supermarket that went out of business, but that's it. And all the other things were there, the restaurant, the noodle shop, the hot pot place, they're all there. But just that 15-minute walk we took on, I noticed at least five different restaurants. And I was actually pointing out to them, oh, there was this shop over there. Now it's something different. And oh, that's the shop that's been renovated. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I think the amount of changes and the speed of change is just fascinating. And again, I knew that when I was in Shanghai, because people always talk about how fast things change in Shanghai. But now I had the experience to see all that happening just by stepping out and coming back again. Now that you've moved abroad for at least a year, and combining that with the other times that you have lived abroad, do you...

Do you feel like there's a certain amount of appreciation for what you had here in Shanghai? Yeah, yeah. That has grown? Yeah, definitely. Because the reason why I ask is because I've spoken to people that are dying to get out of here. Grass is greener on the other side. Especially to even like America, because I'm American. So they'll say America. Yeah, I'll go to America. America's great. I'm not going to... I wasn't taking a stand in those conversations, but...

The fact that they're just dying to get out of here because they still hold this negativity towards where they live now. It could be because that's all they know. How long have they been here? Local. Local Chinese. Oh, local. Don't talk about local Chinese. They're dying to get out of here. Yeah. Out of here. Wow. Yeah. So I'm just curious.

Were you like that before? Were you dying to get out of here? No, it was just part of my career planning. But I know what you're saying. I've got at least two friends like that, like very close friends. One is planning her trip out to become a permanent resident in Japan. And the other one is trying to move out to the US. And it's exactly what you're saying. It's the COVID experience or whatever that they feel like it's not right to be here anymore. And then they just want to get out. Yes.

For me, I think I was lucky enough that I got out and I came back. And that's where I think the differences happens. Because like you said, life is always elsewhere. It feels like the grass is always greener. But I believe once they leave the country and they had opportunity to come back again, there should be little things that they would appreciate more about this country. Yeah, and it's not even like... I'll add another spin to it, right? It's not even just about like...

what's the best place or like you should always be loyal to the place you're in. You should just live in different places so then you can decide hopefully like what type of place that really suits you. And I realized that that is a privilege. It's a total privilege to have the resources. Most people can't. But like for the rest of us, then we should really cherish that and live in different places and actually appreciate every single place that we're in and just recognize that it's like not,

it's not easy. Like how many people go into making a place what it is? There's no one person. - Yeah, 'cause you feel like, okay, my life suck at here. Once I moved to that place, my life will be great. No, it's not gonna be. It's always like your mindset and how you see those experiences.

Your life might still be suck when you move to the new place because you couldn't get the bank card sorted or you couldn't get a place you want or you find out the education is so expensive. There's always things like that would happen and...

turning this back to Andrew, like how can you keep it positive and you can just make peace with where you are? - Well, it's what you focus, what you choose to focus on. I think like once like with at least like your basic needs met, like Maslow's hierarchy and stuff like that. So you're not living in a place where you're really fighting day to day for different necessities. Okay, so we're living in the first world, right? Most like us, you know, we're privileged here at this table.

But beyond that, I think a lot of these differences are like maybe I think what you're saying, Jackie, is a lot of it is just like emotional. A lot of it is mental in terms of what you're choosing to harp on, focus on. And that's probably dictated a lot by your own individual negative experiences that you've had to kind of inform that mental position, right? That emotional position that you're holding on to.

And for sure. And, you know, I personally, like, I think like right after or even during the pandemic, um,

There were a lot of people, especially a lot of expats were talking about like, "Yeah, I wanna get the F out of here. "I just wanna get the F out of here." And so a lot of that talk obviously in group chats. And that used to really, really bug me. And precisely because, I mean, I don't know, I'm really appreciative in many ways of this city that I've been able to live here almost 15 years.

And except for like really like three months of that time, like it's been awesome. Right. And so it used to like honestly really bug me. And I can openly say that now, but like, but I've changed and it doesn't bug me anymore because I feel like I've opened up to the idea of like, Hey, everyone should make the best decision that they feel is best for them and their families. And even during like a zoom episode we did during the lockdown, like,

We were speculating how many people are going to leave and how different the city is going to look, how many people are still going to hold on to that grudge of the lockdown, and are all the foreigners just going to be gone and we're not going to see any more foreigners here anymore? All this speculation and all this talk

And I was just thinking, and I was saying like the people we're going to see in their actions, right? Like no matter what people are saying now, that's very emotionally charged and rightfully so.

We're going to see in their actions whether they actually pick up and leave, especially the people with families I feel, because that's going to speak louder than words. For the ones that ended up staying, no matter how much trash talk they were talking, the ones that ended up staying, there must have been a reason they're staying. The benefits must have outweighed the negatives for them to stay, especially to keep their kids here and all that. And the ones who...

the benefits don't outweigh the negatives, they're going to leave. And we saw a lot of people go for sure. I also saw a lot of people leave and come back. Actually, I wouldn't say a lot of people, but there are a handful of people I know that left and then they ended up coming back. And so that's almost an interesting kind of conversation to have because I feel like it's just about

practicing a little more empathy, right? And understanding like, look, we don't need to be so like loyalist to like, oh, you got to stay here because you've been living here and why are you leaving now after this? Like, look, everyone gets to make that decision for themselves and there's no right or wrong with that. It's a very personal decision. Everyone has the right to do it. So it's just kind of

I guess, really interesting, like a human experiment, we always say, to see why are people leaving and especially to kind of keep in touch with them afterwards for a longer period of time to see how are they doing? How are they enjoying it, right? How are they feeling about their decisions? Like, honestly, because a lot of people initially will be like, they don't want to admit, right? So they'll be like, oh, of course I love it here. Of course I love it here. And a few months later, they come back, right? But like, but it's always interesting to kind of see

And I don't know, I'm just sharing kind of my own personal maybe growth, I guess, in terms of not connecting that with any sort of emotional feeling at all in terms of right or wrong or I approve it or not approve it. I mean, that's all bullshit. We're not here to judge those actions. Yeah, no judgment whatsoever. Yeah, and just like, let's all make that decision. Justin's all growns up.

All grown up. Please give me. Brilliant. Standing ovation, please. Let's jot down that clip. That one's going to make the. That one's like the ultimate virtue signal. The ultimate. All grown up. I'm so better. I'm so much better now. Like I'm so happy and I'm just content and it doesn't matter. Have you thought about after you leave certain elements of your life here that you will miss?

For me, yeah. Yeah. It's almost like I have a list. Do you have a list? What's on the top of that list? Well, yeah, I would say like... That's a fake list. Yeah.

Obviously. I mean, I think in terms of the city itself, right, like tied to the location. I mean, Jackie spoke about, you know, the convenience factor. I think for me, it's a little bit more intangible, but it's a little bit about just the life of the city itself. So you're walking down any street and, you know, you'll see a new noodle shop or, you know, a new museum that popped up literally on our walk over here.

I think it's that, it's a very energetic vibe. It's very adventurous, right? It's kind of very much about discovery like every single day. And sure, I'm sure, you know, there's large cities or small in some cases around the world that that feeling can exist within. But I think that's for sure, it's so highlighted in a place like Shanghai. And you know, the food is another one. So there's, you know, the cultural aspect, but there's also, you know, how the city is laid out and transportation is definitely one thing I'm gonna miss.

Like not necessarily having a subway. So what's your, like for the listeners, right? Like, cause I think you have a, um, quite a active lifestyle. Like what's your day to day? Like what's the average day? Like, what do you do? I know you do a lot of walking. Yeah. Right. But like, how do you maximize discovery like day to day? I love walking. So I do walk quite a bit.

it. And I just listen to podcasts, right? Go for runs. That's something that I really like to do, just kind of discover new places. But even if it's the same path or the same outdoor area that you might go in, the weather can change the dynamic. The podcast that you're listening to could kind of make you spark some new ideas. But generally, yeah, it's trying to get

outside a little bit or as much as you can. Staying active. Where do you walk? Like, is it in like downtown?

Yeah, like a typical path that I would take just, you know, walk and or bike to Sujo Creek. I'm just a really beautiful area of the city. And then kind of run along that path up towards the bund. You can go north bund, you can go, you know, kind of the other side. And then, you know, you can just kind of walk and then I literally walk back. So, you know, I'm out for

couple hours and I'm just trying to... I don't know. That's like one thing that I'd like to do, just, you know, personal interest. Well, Austin is, I think, probably more conducive, right? Because that probably factored into your decision. Because like if it was like, oh, like, you know, you have a job and like...

I don't know, some shitty little city. It'd be harder, right? But I think Austin will be easier for you to transition to. Yeah, yeah. Now that I've talked to some people, like I'm now thinking, of course, about like the reverse culture shock and that whole, you know, topic. You know, I was sitting down with somebody the other day and they're talking about literally, you know, researching repatriation and repatriation.

all the connected topics and suggested advice, you know, what should you be aware of? It's a real thing. Yeah. It's a real thing. Yeah. And I, I never thought about that, but it's a real thing. Yeah. Uh, you know, there's, there's a lot of research behind the, and anyway, you know, so I, I'm trying to also mentally, I would say, get ready for some of those transition points. And plus America now is very different than when you left. Oh yeah. Right. Right.

Yeah. And even this part of the US, like I've never... I've visited it for one day. Like, you know, I've never lived there. So maybe there's that discovery element that will certainly be part of... I don't know what we'll want to call it, the honeymoon phase, right? When everything is new and you're really excited to be there. But for sure, right? As...

As time would go on, you'll dip, right? You'll peak. Things will go up and down. I'm expecting to be certainly on a roller coaster ride. When I first came out to China way back when, and I was living here for a short stint, when I did go back, I definitely felt that. So I'm also, again, maybe able to...

think about that and think about those emotions that I went through and how I got through it then. Part of that was, I really want to go back to China. But, you know, going back now, you know, I think being a little bit more confident that regardless of where I go, whether it's this city or another country that I'm not familiar with, I think, you know, having the

a little bit more maturity, maybe in certain ways, just, you know, as time goes on, um, to handle some of those changes more effectively or, or know what to do, it's probably going to be, it's going to be really difficult, but at least I know I can, you know, reach out to, to this group or I can throw on, you know, this podcast and like, you know, there's little things that I think can, can help. Um, and you know, I'm very confident that the people, you know, a couple of people I know who are there, that'll be really helpful to kind of reorient

I don't know the correct term there, but yeah, like my point being, you know, it's fascinating to think about this stuff. - Well, and it's not even about like re-assimilation, I think, right? Because that's like your, maybe that's your fear or anxiety talking. It's like, well, what if you treat it as like a completely new experience? It's like a new place. Like, why are we thinking about this as like you going back and then like, you know, readopting your lifestyle? It's like, no, it's a new country.

Like for all intents and purposes, a new country, but like all the shit, the banking, everything's going to work more seamlessly because you got a freaking social security number, right? Yeah. It was almost like the people there, it's like, what's the best of this place and how can I experience like treat it as like your next Shanghai? It was fascinating as part of being able to go back.

There was a there was a document that was shared with me and it was saying, you know, welcome to the US. You know, here's here's culturally, you know, what you should be aware of. And here's some apps to download. And this is what they give to actual new immigrants. Is that the same document? No, it's it's from a third party. Yeah. That'd be interesting if anybody coming into the US has that.

But, you know, I'm sure there's this was a pretty funny. You have the same document as like a fresh immigrant from like Albania or something like that. You're holding the same document, like learning the same thing. Yeah. You know, it's just it's so interesting to, you know, be in a position where I'm, of course, familiar with the culture and everything, you know, not everything, but a lot of stuff in the US and, you know, reading through some of those bullet points that were on that document.

Don't hitchhike. What were things on that list? One thing, tipping, right? So where should you tip and kind of the etiquette that would... To be honest, that gives me the most anxiety. Even when I think about like visiting back, like not even moving, like visiting back.

Honestly, I'm not even joking. Tipping gives me the most anxiety because I'm like, what do I do? How much do I tip? When do I tip? Who are the right people to tip? That gives me so much anxiety. I think you just give them your wallet and be like, take as much as you want. What do you need? I don't want to offend you. Don't spit in my food. Don't drop it on the ground. And then there's some people I might not think, oh, you should tip them, but by etiquette, those are the people you talk to. They're going to follow you home. When I go get a haircut at a salon, do I need to tip

- The hairdresser now? - Yeah. - Yeah, because I didn't use to. - And the person washing your hair. - Okay. - Just give them your wallet and be like, take as much as you want. - But it's always been like that. I never used to do that. - You scumbag. - Like, you go to Supercuts, you're gonna tip the guy a Supercut. - No wonder your hair, well, anyways. - Yeah, no, but that gives me anxiety 'cause I don't know. - Yeah, I mean, I was back in April most recently, and I just remember, you know, a simple example, going to a little coffee store with my sister, we were doing some work, and you know, I paid for like a tea, you know, like whatever, a couple dollars,

And, you know, they have the iPad, an iPad system in this store. And, you know, they flip it around, right, to show you. And then it's like, what's the, you know, gratuity or the tip that you want to give? And there's three big options. I think it started at 15%, 20% and like,

25 or something. But there was, you know, there was number one, like no clear option to say no tip. But I always think like if you like to your point, like, would you ever not give a tip? And so, yeah, I'm a little like it's almost like you're a pause in time because back then tipping for a tea at a coffee shop, you don't do anything.

It's not common practice. If you went to grab a coffee, you wouldn't be tipping. It's not common practice back then. But here now, I feel like it's becoming more common practice. And then from what I'm hearing as well is like, yeah, like you have the options, right? And there's no option for no tip. It just starts at like lowest 15%, which used to be like one of the higher end tips when we were growing up there. I think it's the whole system is broken. But like, but it's even frowned upon if you were to go 15% because that's the lowest option I heard. Like, like...

Like, you know, just like people know it's like an unspoken rule. It's like, don't go for the 15%. It's like there, they have to provide it to you as an option, but you don't do that unless like you're really unhappy with the service or something. And Justin, just for your reference, next time you go back to America, anybody you pass, you have to tip them. No matter what, just strangers. Okay, hold on. Let me throw out two things why I think that it's, I don't know, it doesn't feel as good, you know, anymore, right? It's like, number one,

The argument is like, well, we need to make a living on a lot of stuff. We'll just build it into the price, period. It's okay. I just don't want that ambiguity. Your employer should be paying you enough.

Period. Right? And you can build that into the price structure. Number two, like, oh, you'll get, you know, it's for better service. Like, no, the service should fucking be good. It should be like, it's a competitive market. Like the service in Shanghai is like impeccable. It used to suck. I think going back specifically to the tipping system and, you know, having lived in countries where tipping is very much ingrained in part of the structure and culture there, I

And versus living in Asia where there is, there's no tipping. It's not a tipping culture, right? The myth of tipping improves service was blown out of the water, right? Because it's not even like, forget China or Shanghai, go to Japan, go to Korea, go to most of the Asian countries where tipping doesn't exist. Like only like in very specific circumstances, right? Rarely, but tipping generally doesn't exist. And,

Asia, in the Asian part of the world, you're just known for better service in general. Go to Thailand. Go to these places where tipping is not part of the custom. The service, and so that raises, I don't even know why. Why is it, though? Because logically, on paper, tipping should improve service. It makes sense that it would.

But in my experience, it doesn't. Yeah, what's the history behind that? It also shows services are optional. Like, why is that? Like, then it gives, it's like optional. I don't know, anyways. Yeah, like, I don't know why, but like, it just. Anyway, so prepare, like, so make sure, like, so basically you're making 20% less now, Andrew. Wait, what else is on that list besides tipping, though?

Uh, there's, I think there are other ones that, that at least I might've focused on, um, like buying a car or car insurance. And so the whole insurance system of, you know, how that works and how the U S is set up, uh, banking, right? Like, what is it like to open a bank account? You know, so there's things that I'm familiar with, but, you know, in my situation, kind of trying to figure out what is the best, you know,

banking solution from, let's say, China to the US. So I was thinking about that. Buying a car is now also a conversation that I'm having with myself, at least. And my family, they're super excited for me to come back. And

You know, they're also like, I'm going to talk to this person or contact at this dealership and we're going to find you a good used car and we'll get you one. So, you know, that's kind of fun to see. And it's also very reassuring that there might be some of these big purchases or life decisions almost where like I've never I haven't had to drive.

I don't even know in how long. I mean, other than being back to visit, I haven't needed to own a car. At least in Shanghai, I prefer not to have one just based on the convenience that we're talking about and public transportation and the speed at which you can get around the city and jump on the subway, as we all know, get on a bike, walk somewhere. It's very convenient and preferable, at least for me. Are you going to get a car?

I think I have to. Yeah, in Austin, you have to. Yeah, you're not going to get around. I've asked a couple people, is it possible to not have a... Do you not have a car? And everybody has a car. If you want to run a marathon every day. Yeah. In Austin, there's a light rail from... I did take it once.

and I was looking at the map, right? So kind of here's where I'm going to work. And here's the closest station for that particular, you know, light rail system. And it looks pretty close on the map. And, you know, and then you kind of map it and get directions.

It's like, it'll take an hour and a half to walk from here to there. It's like that distance is like the distance from like your house to your current office. You know what I'm saying? It's like, like without like any rail. Yep. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think there's something like you touched on it just now. Like, I think there's something fun about like,

You're not starting over again, but you're kind of like resetting up your life, right? Just like from all like the daily practical things like banking, car insurance. But it's just like you're kind of like restructuring your life from scratch, like a blank piece of paper almost. It's like getting a new computer or a new phone, right? And it's like that feeling, that fun feeling of like,

like resetting it and customizing it to your liking. It's like that fresh, fresh feeling. I would imagine it's almost like that, but with your life in a way where you can kind of like start from scratch again and just, and think about and really think about, be mindful of how you want to set things up now and do things where, you know, before things were just a kind of like maybe already set up for you.

And now I can like really think about it and be like, okay, well, how do I want to plan this? How do I want to set this up? How do I want to structure this for, you know, better long-term, you know, ideas and goals? So it's like, I think that's, I think that that'd be pretty fun. That's such a brilliant analogy because there's the option of just transferring all the settings over, right? And then like, I know Andrew likes to set up his new phone as a fresh phone. So I'm curious, right? What are some things like using Justin's metaphor that you're going to set up?

I mean, I'm trying to honestly approach it like that. Like it is a good analogy to try to look at everything from a new angle and see what can I like, let's just say, like physical things, right? I'm not planning to move really much of a lot of things from what I own here back to the US, you know, other than clothes and some, you know, basic stuff.

So like in that sense, you know, maybe I need to go shopping for, you know, appliances or, you know, these other things that will exist in your home. But yeah, definitely. I think a car, these are, that's a new decision that I haven't had to have. But I think it's, it would be a little bit more of a fresh decision.

start in that sense. The apartment that I would be going to, which is still something that I'm trying to discover and trying to work through and figure out, what are the right questions to ask when you're now looking for an apartment or even a house in the US, in this city? And what's the housing market like? So I find myself going down a lot of rabbit holes, but it's really interesting rabbit holes. You're researching these different topics and

I'm trying to figure out, yeah, just the, I don't know what you want to do. Well, I can tell you from personal experience, the car thing, you're going to get used to that real quick. Yeah. I just got a car last year after probably 14 years of not having a car.

And I just got one last year because, you know, I have a kid now and my wife was pressuring me to get a car, blah, blah, blah. But now it's like completely normal for me. Like at first I was like, oh my God, I'm driving a car in Shanghai. I'm a car owner, you know, after all this time. But yeah, you get used to it real quick. He cruises the streets and like, you know, on like Donghulu at night, you know, just cranks up the music. Just picking up chicks. Ah, that's you. Drives by the old...

Was that club LaBaron? Yeah. So what do you... In terms of like the whole reverse culture shock thing, what are you expecting? I mean, from what I read and from what others tell me, I think just making sure that you're...

that you stay connected with, I don't want to say your previous life, but everything that has been very important to you over the past whatever number of years. So it's kind of almost flipping that. So now I'm staying connected very closely with family via FaceTime. So probably Eric and Jackie, I'm going to be FaceTiming these two pretty often. And

But I think the like the social aspect, you know making friends and kind of getting out into the city and Trying to discover you know

you know, what, what resonates with your interests or passion. So, you know, I mentioned, I like to go running, you know, trying to figure out a new park or maybe somebody, you know, at the office or somebody that I, you know, just kind of happened to find in a running group or something like that. And we can just, you know, explore it that way. So I think there's, that's probably a top of mind for me right now is, and especially like from what I hear and from what I'm reading about, that's probably the biggest, the biggest one. Yeah. You're going to fit just fine. Yeah.

If anything, it sounds exciting. Yeah. Right? It sounds very exciting to kind of flip the switch a little bit, right? And kind of what Justin was saying, it's almost like you have a chance to start over, you know? And it's funny to say that because you're going back to America and you're American, you know? This is like, look at him, right? He looks like the classic American guy, right? And it's just like...

And we're like, oh, you're going to start all over. Culture shock. Culture shock. And it's us telling him that. No, he's like a Chinese dude going to America, right? It's like, where's the local Chinese restaurant? He's going to arrive there. Like, honestly, like, he's probably in some ways more Chinese than we are. He's going to go there and all of a sudden it's like start talking broken English for some reason. Yeah.

Yeah, I think, yeah, communication is actually an interesting point, though. Like the how I communicate here, right? If it's in English, especially right where a lot of what I do recently is all in English. But based on, you know, the audience that that I might be around, you know, let's say if somebody isn't very familiar with English or, you know, you can really pick up easily on these things. Like I definitely adjust, you know, the way that I communicate.

would speak or the vocabulary that i use the speed right that i normally might talk but yeah i think that's something also jackie you can probably chime in on too in terms of your experience in singapore as well is that i think you're exactly right andrew the communication i never even thought about it because is there is there a big difference i i think i know the answer but like maybe i don't um i get the feeling the more time i spend here in shanghai

the more my method of communication starts changing. At first, I was very direct, always like, you know, the American style, say what you mean, say how you feel, just be direct, blah, blah, blah. Now, maybe not so much, right? And I kind of learn, you know, the nuances of communication here as you do in Chinese culture. I'm wondering though,

If I'm just overthinking it and it's really not that different, like when you go back to the States or when you go back to a place like Singapore, do you feel the method and style of communication and the way like you would say something to someone here versus maybe the way you would communicate something to someone there? Do you think there is a big difference? I don't know how big the difference will be, but there is definitely a difference. Andrew and I were actually talking about this, like even for me observing how he talks with

non-native speakers versus native speakers, his usage of word and the structure of the sentence or how

easy he would make it for the other person to understand it's like it's very easy to tell and because he he has like sometimes we got these interns in the team and the way he talked to them I just hearing it from my seat I can realize that it's actually quite different from the way for example he talks with Eric and I think it's a very conscious thing and very kind thing for him to do because coming from a non-native speaker perspective I really appreciate that

And I was in occasions, even when in Singapore, because they've got this Singlish going on. And I sat with a couple of people local from there and I just realized I really wouldn't understand what they were talking about because there are a lot of local slang and everything.

But they were also very kind and tried to explain to me. It also takes me to ask the question, like, oh, what do you mean by atas? Like, what does that mean? And which language is that from? So I think it takes both sides to, again, to your point earlier, cross-pollinize. Yeah. But I think what you're saying, and I understand what you're saying, but that's coming more from a language perspective. I'm talking about culturally. Yeah.

Like the way, like forget their level of English, right? Let's say their level of English is fluent, right? On both ends. Or let's say you're talking to a local Chinese here, like, you know, regardless of the language versus let's say when you go back to America, talk to American, talking to Singaporean. Do you feel your method of the way you communicate, nothing to do with language itself, right?

do you think that changes in terms of you have to kind of maybe dance around the issue a little bit more? - Yeah, 'cause like what Justin's saying is that here, a lot of times when you're speaking, especially in Chinese and especially in Shanghai, it's like, you know what I mean? It's never like, that's Andrew's like fucking forte. He is the master of like ping pong or like deflecting. Well, I think what'll help him is that he works extensively with people in the US. Like he probably, like if you're talking about English communication,

I mean, he's probably hours and hours a day with the people over there. Right. So I think from a work perspective, it won't be, you know, like that much. And I think just naturally he's quite artful almost to a fault in his communication. Like, cause I think he's adapted his way of talking at work cause he has to negotiate all the time and then it's become his style. And then Jackie will just give him shit. Like get to the fucking point, dude. It's like, cut the bullshit. No, but watch, he goes back to the States and he's like talking like all rough and tumble all of a sudden. He's like,

But I don't think you were ever like that. No, no. Right? He's not a Jersey boy, dude. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't make like some massive, you know, discovery or transition when I came here to like, oh, I got to, you know, fundamentally change how I know. He came out here, he's like, oh, everybody like, oh, Chen's is just like I do. Well, is that in Singapore too? Like, is the culture in Singapore, can people be more direct there or is it pretty similar to here?

I think so. I think that communication-wise, they are more efficient. A great example is when you ask them, can you do something, they would answer, can. And that's it. You wouldn't say, oh, yes, sure, why not? It's just can. And then if they cannot do it, they say, cannot.

And then you just walk away because they told you you cannot. Just stop arguing from there. So I think there is a bit of efficiency in that communication. And because of the massive use of slang, they can also explain very complicated concepts in just a simple slang. And they just throw that slang out. I'm still on the journey of learning all that. It's like their Chen Yu. Yeah, it's fascinating to see that.

And if you think about the culture of the city, yeah, they are quite an efficient society. Okay. I think we have one more topic to talk about. So Jackie, what are you going to miss most about this dude next to you? Oh my God. Now, now this is the moment that I start to cry. Here's the box of tissues. What am I going to miss most? Or what, what, what won't you miss? Yeah. How he ping pong things. I won't miss that.

The indirectness, the Tai Chi. He's like a master Tai Chi, not physically. It's so interesting to hear this being described. He's a master Tai Chi. Like now it's all coming out. Yeah. The master Tai Chi. I think I just miss having a great friend that's just nearby. Because the reality is we will be having time differences and there is a distance in terms of our communication. There is a time lag. Yeah.

It's not, I know it's almost one call away, but not really. So I think I would miss that. Like, I know he's the person that I would pick up a phone call and call him if I'm in a really bad situation or something like that. But I don't think that would be the case now he's moving away with so much time differences.

cut to like three o'clock in the morning yeah hello ring ring i can't help it yeah stay awake longer my food still isn't here what the fuck happened andrew what about you eric

Oh, man. I think you don't realize these things until it's about to happen. This last six months or nine months, we've hung out the least that we have in the last few years. Well, first of all, we were working directly together before, so I'd see him all the time. And then we would be doing stuff, working out all the time. And I'm going to just miss the walks, the talks, the conversations, his...

his fresh perspective on things, like just miss him, like as a person, right. Just existentially, I think. Yeah. Andrew. No, but like, I mean, I, obviously we don't know each other that well, but like, but from everything from the few times we have, you know, been around each other and from everything I've heard from Eric and from what I'm hearing today from Jackie, I mean, and from what I, everything that I can tell, um,

You seem like truly a great person. Yeah. So even as briefly as we've been able to hang out, it's been a pleasure knowing you, man. Oh, man. Likewise. And I'm going to come out to Austin and see you, man. You should. I'll be there. All joking aside, Austin is a place that really entices me.

Yeah. You hear that? Joe Rogan? I find that real... No, because everything... I've never been there. You got competition now, motherfucker. But it sounds really attractive to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's been fascinating hearing what people really like about Austin. The more that I talk to people who are there right now or people who are from there... I know a couple people even out here and it's... Yeah. It's actually...

very positive. Like I was expecting people to say, oh, you know, it's, uh, it's too small or it's not, it's not what everybody makes it out to be. Um, but yeah, it sounds like there's a lot of really positive. I've heard great things. Yeah. Really good things. Yeah. And what if we all moved to Texas? I don't mind. Should we just do that? Well,

I wouldn't put that on the table. What, taxes? I mean, taxes. I was going to say something about that. No taxes. Texas has like the lowest taxes of all the states in America. Is that why it's called Texas? No, it's called Texas because of Tejas, friendship. It's a Native American word. But if you all decided to move out there, I wouldn't be against it. It's a sad day for YSLD.

What is that? What is that, Jackie? What's YSLD? What's YSLD? I don't know. It's a secret. All right. Whatever. I don't care. That's it for today, folks. Jackie, Andrew. Thank you for having us. I'm Justin. I'm a submariner. And I'm Howie. All right. Be good. Be well. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace.