#171. Matt Galat & Tice Kralt: Keep It Moving
01:22:19 Share

We're doing the sake first, man. Yeah, let's do sake. Well, we probably should do sake first, right? Yeah, yeah. Is that a rule? I don't know. I'm just saying, I think we'll pay for it. Sake is the only alcohol that doesn't give me a hangover.

Really? Yeah, for Amy, it's like my favorite drink. I've gotten blitzed on sake, and the next day I am not comatose. So like rice liquor is okay. What about soju? Baidu will kill me. Soju's okay. It's got a lot of sugar in it, though. Yeah, yeah, soju's not. All right. That was pure, I guess. Yeah. All right, cheers. Cheers. Welcome back, Matt. Tice. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me, for inviting us. And away we go.

Oh, is it okay? It's okay. Yeah, yeah. It should be hot. Like scalding. I want it to burn my... I normally tell the people, I'm like, I want my mouth to be hurting. And they look at me with disdain. We're going to pour out some whiskey just as we talk and sip. Would you like some, Tyce? I'll try some out. So this is made here in China.

You know, I was thinking, like, it'd be nice to bring you a bottle of whiskey or bourbon or something like that. It'd be nice for you not to come empty-handed, but, you know.

And that wraps it up, folks. Get the hell out of here. Get out of here. Matt. Yeah. It's awesome when you're back in town. When I heard you were back in China, how many years has it been since you were last? Has it been three years? It's been three years. It feels like longer than three years. So much more has happened. Absence makes the heart go fronder. So just to give some people some context, the last time we had you on the show, you

You came by our studio, which was in my apartment at that time, with all your luggage in tow. And right after we recorded the show, you were off to the airport. And that's when you officially left China, where you moved out of China. Yeah, yeah.

And now you're back. Yeah. Yeah. Catch, catch me up, man. What have you been up to? Well, first of all, you, when you remind me of that period of time, the thing that as far as what I do, which is like video production and the making videos and vlogging and stuff like that. I remember going to the airport in the point from leaving China to arriving in the States and,

And I thought, wouldn't it be funny if I made a video about how I escaped China? You know, wouldn't it be funny? Like a parody. Like a parody, but you got to sell a parody. You got to be somewhat like convincing. So I'm like, you know, okay, guys, I've finally done it. You know, I finally got away. You know, I finally did it. And I'm wearing my mask, you know, because it was still, we were still deep into the COVID, especially in the airports. Yeah.

And I'm like, oh, I finally did it. It's so scary. It's so scary there. And I finally got away. I got more hate on that video because I think what happened is people watched like the first few minutes and then they just, before the punchline, they're like,

He jumped the shark. If I pulled a stirrers, he's out of here. Yeah. Yeah. They really thought I was serious. And, and I lost some subscribers and there was like a big, it was really angry. And then there was the whole, you're leaving your wife and daughter, you know, you're a, you're a bad human being. And there was just like a pile of anyways. So that's how it started. My, my exodus of, of China back to the States. Um,

But geez, it's tough because it's been so many things. I went to the state. You and me talked about wanting me. I talked about van life, right? Yeah. So you were telling us your plans that when you were going to go back to the States, you were going to get a van, you were going to convert the van and just travel around. Yeah. So I followed you for a bit. I know like you went to, you got your trike back, right? And then you kind of went around, you were like in Italy, you were like Europe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I mean, I don't know. Yeah, so give me the rundown. Okay, so I left here with the intention of continuing a journey.

whatever that journey might be. You know, I was cycling around the world and my trike at the time was stuck in Kuala Lumpur. I couldn't get it. The shipping and logistics was sort of crazy. And so I was like, well, if I can't get my trike, I'm going to try and do something else. And I had traveled around China a lot during the COVID period. Like it was bad for a lot of people, but it was good for me because it was like, I sort of had like a freedom to roam around China and see some places in unique ways. Cause they weren't like

there wasn't tons of tourism piling into China like it normally does. So it was sort of a unique perspective. And so I went to the States with the idea that I was going to continue my journey sort of in reverse. And instead of going from China to America, I was going to go from America and start working my way towards China. And so I had to answer a question. A lot of people wonder, like, where does my money come from, especially to buy the van and do all these kind of things? Well,

My grandma and grandpa died shortly after my dad died. And so there was inheritance there, and there was a stipulation that they wanted to see me live life. They didn't want to see me just, like, hang on to that money, like, live with it, you know, like, do something with it, substantial. So I was thinking...

Maybe I could take, you know, some of that money and buy a vehicle. And then instead of loading up the trike and the bike or whatever I was riding at the time and trying to like make videos ad hoc while I'm, you know, interviewing somebody on the side of the road or inside of a hostel and, you

You can't really do that sort of travel in America anyway because there's not a lot of hostels. The cost of going from hotel to hotel could rack up. So I was like, why don't I just build a studio on wheels and then take that around the world? And then as I meet people, I talk to them. And I'd watch those YouTube videos of people fixing up their vans, you know? And it's like a time lapse, you know, where basically from raw van to end, it takes about like 30 seconds. And I was like, yeah, I could probably do it in about four minutes, you know? So I'd take a little longer, you know? Easy peasy.

So it was around the time of the chip shortage, so I couldn't find a vehicle. And so I was looking for, because, you know, there was a chip shortage at the time, and people weren't selling the microchips for the cars were rare, you know. So, like, there was no way people were getting, selling these vehicles because there was, like, supply and demand. There was no supply.

And I found a van, it was in Texas. So I flew to Texas and bought this Ford Transit 350 HD with an extended, you know, box, high roof. I mean, it was, it was exactly what I wanted. Didn't have any windows, you know, it was like a windowless white van. And I was like, perfect. I'm going to build this into my dream roaming, uh, traveling tool, you know? And, uh, so I didn't, I spent a lot of money on the van. It was like 60 grand, 65 grand for the van itself. Um,

And then I started, like, you know, contacting suppliers that made different things. And I was leveraging my YouTube and TikTok community numbers to try to, like, encourage sponsorships. You know, say, hey, I got a lot of subscribers. I could give you some exposure. If you're interested, give me a discount. Or I could...

And then I was like, I'm not like interested in you just sending me something. I want to go to your place and then I'll go there and then I'll, you could show me about your company and then I can move to the next place and on and on and on. So I, uh, I created this tour where I was driving around the United States, picking up all these things for the van, uh,

And that went pretty well. You know, that went really well. You got a lot of support. Do you know what overlanding is? No. Justin, overlanding is like, it's like RV life. You know, like van life or RV life. People take massive, like Yellowstone National Park has their own ambulance service.

uh, type, you know, where the tires are designed to go, it's designed to go off road. If they have a medical emergency, they're like military almost vehicles. And they, and they will take these vehicles and convert them into these living spaces. And then they will take them like the,

In America, they call them BLM, their Bureau of Land Management. Yeah, yeah. There's a multiple acronym. That's not the first BLM that comes to mind. Yeah, yeah. Now BLM, to me, means Bureau of Land Management, you know? And basically, they're public land that has nothing on it, like no facilities whatsoever.

And it's open to camp there. It's just open to the public. If you're American, you can use any BLM land for purposes just as long as you leave it the way that you arrived there. So take care of the land. So that's where most people who are living with van life, they camp out and stuff? If they have off-grid living capabilities. If they don't need to plug into power. If they have solar panels, if they've got a big battery...

system and all of this kind of stuff. And this has become real popular in the States, you know, building out these things, especially during COVID, it was really popular because people wanted to get off grid. They didn't want to be around other people. They wanted to be away, whether it was because they thought the virus was bad or whether they thought the people that

thought the virus was bad were bad you know there was all sides of that thing you know they just wanted to get away as a matter of fact a lot of the like the hardcore trumpers are you know are like the going off on the grid you know and then they're on their own you know and so i was uh i traveled around i started building out the van and then the building out the van kind of took on a life of its own and years went by you know and i'm like

I lost a lot of steam because the original purpose was to get the van built and then go off on the road. And then it became finishing the van became its own mission and a lot more than I had intended. I mean, it just was consuming me. Then there was other things that were happening, like Annie and Eva came to the United States and Dada and Xiaoxiao were going to school in the United States. Dada and Xiaoxiao are my niece and nephew here in China.

And so Annie and Eva came, we bought a big old house, built a big old house, you know, built it from the ground up. And then, you know, once you have a house and you need a lawn and then you need a deck, then there's HOA concerns and there's taxes and there's healthcare. And then there's, you know, like all of these things that I never was really interested

I had like zero responsibility when I was traveling around, like on the back of a trike, you know. Annie and Eva were all very well taken care of in China. I came back and visited them frequently, but they had their family in China and that was their, you know, they were safe, you know, they were in a safe zone. But in America, I have to cultivate that safe zone for them, you know, like they're in my country now, you know. So there's a lot of responsibilities and things that were sort of brought in that I was like,

didn't really intend when we were talking to you, when I was talking to you before I left. You know, I had kind of this idea that I was just going to get a van, jump on it, and keep going. And it sort of, like, got away from me. So that never ended up actually happening? No, I don't want to ever say never, you know. You finished the van. It hasn't. The van is finished. Okay, so you eventually finished the van. The van is beautiful. Shit, man, the van is amazing. But you haven't done van life yet. But I haven't done van life yet. Okay. You know, I've gone on a couple of little trips, but I don't want to, like,

I'm a van lifer yet. You haven't earned that badge. I haven't earned that badge. I'm not going to flaunt that. I've lived in China a long time. I can talk pretty proficiently about my life in China, but I've done a lot to that van. And I got to imagine that when I do start traveling with that thing, that it's going to really help to propel the story

social media channels in the direction of van life and stuff like that. And possibly bring back a lot of the audience that has, you know, tried to figure out where I am right now, you know, cause I think there's a lot of people who are like, what's Matt doing right now? You know, is, is, is there interest there for enough for me to watch, you know? Yeah. I was, I was one of those people. Right. The, uh, I'd be interested, you know, three years have passed. You've lived there. You're like living the life. Like, I mean, you're dealing with that.

housing and Medicare, insurance, and family. So, like, how has your experience been in the States these past three years? Like, what was that like? You know, the States is not like Asia. I mean, it's like slower.

Things are a lot slower. They're a lot more... Where were you in the States, by the way? I mean, the tour with the truck, the van went all over the United States. So I was south, north, east, west, all over. But now my home is in southeast Michigan. In like the reddest district in all of Michigan. There's Trump rallies on the corner of my street, hopefully. Yeah.

They'll slow down now, you know. I think they got what they wanted, but... Yeah, well, we can get into that, too. Whoa! Yeah. Watching that from China is surreal, but, you know... I think watching that from anywhere is surreal, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. You're right. It was just a very surreal election process. And it happened so quick, too. I mean, from both sides. Like, it's not even all about Trump. I think it's just the whole thing was just insane. But anyway, I mean, go on. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean...

um you know i in china like i'm walking down the streets with tice and i'm showing him around like my home you know he knows taiwan a lot but like this is his first real opportunity to see around some of these places well i know a lot about like uh ningbo because like yeah yeah yeah but this is your first time in shanghai

Yeah, totally. Oh, okay. Well, welcome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he's been an avid watcher of me on my YouTube travels for a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we were, there was a point in Ningbo where I ran a drone into a bridge and then I dove, I had to scuba dive basically into the canal to find it and there was a shrimp that

that was like living inside the housing of the drone and shrimp was in my drone was somehow the title of the video, you know? And then when Tice found out that that's where the bridge was... I was starstruck. I was like, what? This is the bridge? Why does this happen? I was taking pictures. I was like, whoa, you know? It was funny. It was funny. I was like, oh, wow.

Oh, because, you know, I've had a lot of people that have seen my videos and I've walked them, seen them in passing or have recorded podcasts. But I spent a lot of time with Dice. Like, we've been hanging out. Yeah, we knew each other for like five years or more at this point. And I didn't realize how much of a fanboy he was of the vlogs. You know what I mean? You didn't realize he was secretly a stalker who infiltrated your life without realizing it. He realizes it now. He realizes it now. That's not creepy at all. I counted my underwear. I have the exact same number.

Hey, man. Don't know yet. You might have swapped them, like Indiana Jones. That is kind of a funny thing to find out late into a relationship that the person was a huge fan of you to begin with. I mean, we were friends from the videos. I reached out to him in video form. I knew him from the videos. I was totally inspired by him. He is part of the reason why I ended up in Taiwan or in Asia to begin with. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And at the time, this was like five years ago, I was a starting web developer. And I was looking at his website. It was a bit slow. It was a little bit outdated. And I just wanted to help him. I didn't ask for any money. I just wanted to gain experience. And I made this little video in my bedroom. And I was like, hey, I'm a web developer and I want to help him out with website nets.

That's how the friendship started. Wow. So you were in the Netherlands at the time, right? Yes. It was just like, I think that happened like when I was also cycling through Europe. So that's what we have in common as well. We were both like cycle travel vloggers. I also have my own YouTube channel and I was also like doing the daily vlog at the time. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Traveling Thais. Traveling Thais. That's a channel? Yeah, yeah. That's cool. That's cool. And then he, through his videos, inspired you to move to Taiwan? Yeah.

Yeah, so that was when he was making a lot of the China content. Okay. Because there was a bit of beef between him and some other YouTubers. And I was just really interested in the real situation. Like, I wanted to find out what was really going on there. And I had a bit of Chinese from high school. So I had a bit of a basis for, like, Chinese language. And it's been, like, six years. I haven't really done anything with Chinese yet.

And then COVID struck and I was just, you know, a bit bored. And I started learning Chinese again. And that's when I went onto YouTube and I was looking for like Mandarin language videos. And they were all from Taiwan. And that got me really interested in like Taiwanese culture and that sort of stuff. So, yeah, it was like a good two years like into COVID to wait for like a visa opportunity for me to go to Taiwan. And that's how I ended up there. Nice, nice. Cool. Cool.

Yeah. You really do can meet, meet a lot of people kind of doing what you do, huh? You know, it's wild. Like, like we were talking, like there was a guy, we were walking here and walking past people square and everything. And there was like a car that pulls up and the, the guy in the car is completely oblivious to the world. You know, he's, he's looking at a steering wheel. You know how we get when we're driving, we're just like, whatever, we're going here to there. And then he sort of like looks up and he looks at me and I give him a big smile and

And then he changes, you know, he changes, he pulls himself out of the driving mode and he looks at me and all of a sudden we exchange a moment where there's like an energy pass between us. And then he's got this huge grin on his face and the light changes and I'll never see him again. He's gone. And then I go on my way and I'll never see him again. And I'm on my way.

And like YouTube has allowed me to do a one-sided version of that to people all over the world. You know, like I'm looking at them, I can't see them looking back at me, but they're gonna have a grin or they're gonna have a moment where they're gonna learn maybe something or have just a chuckle or whatever.

but I'll share a piece of my life with them and then they'll turn off the YouTube video and go on their way. And then I will continue my way. They'll take that moment with them. Yeah. And being able to see Tice, you know, who, who's been a friend of mine for a very long time and see, you know, like I didn't realize that, you know, he, he just sort of introduced to me that, that he moved to China in, in some part because of, you know, meeting me.

And like, that's like, or watching my videos. And that's like, that's a power. That's like a superpower. I was in Ningbo the other day and somebody was calling me and they were like, I know that you're going to be in Ningbo. I know you're going to be in it. I really want to see you. I really want to see you. He's like, okay, okay. So we ended up meeting at Starbucks and he was like,

he's like, I don't want to like inflate your ego or anything, but you are the reason why I'm here. And it's like, I was, I came across your videos and I started learning about China and then like just seeing how much fun you were having here. You know, I ended up coming and I came to Ningbo because of you, you know, and he's like, I'm like, no regrets, you know? And I'm like, holy shit. That's, that's like, oh man, you know, the ability, even you making these podcasts, the giving people at this table, an opportunity to tell their story. You're, you're doing that.

you know everybody you know and you the media of that any media that's broadcast has the ability to do some really incredible things you know yeah well i'm not so sure i'm i i'm making anyone actually physically move where they're living i mean that's but that's big though right because think about it that's that's like a big decision moving anywhere especially to a foreign country that's no small thing like there's a lot that has to go into that right yeah and a lot of

planning, resources, time, money, you know, mentally, you gotta, like, it's a big, it's a big life decision. And for someone to be inspired to do that, that's no small deal. It's a real, it's a real impact right now. Yeah. Yeah. It's a tangible thing, you know. Exactly. Exactly. So wait, I want to get back to, uh,

just because I haven't been back to the States in a long time. And I always wonder, because we always talk on this show, how much of our perspective are we just like in a bubble looking at the States through media, YouTube videos, whatever it is, right? How much of that, just like how a lot of people who've never been to China, they get a very maybe skewed or exaggerated image or view or an opinion about China because they've never been there. I'm just hoping that's the same thing isn't happening to me in terms of my views about China.

How do you feel about the current culture there, society? You know, like what have you kind of picked up just by being there? Well, I mean, you know, part of my whole idea of the world is that we're all pretty good people. And, you know, like I don't want to say like anybody's worse than anywhere else, you know, but...

You know, the culture in America, they're politically charged more than anywhere I've ever been. You know, it's like a badge that you wear in a lot of ways. It's like, you know, you're driving down the street and you see fuck Joe Biden flags and then you see, or Brandon, fuck Brandon, or whatever the Joe Brandon thing, you know, and then you'll see Trump signs. And then, like, it's kind of one-sided. You know, I've not seen a lot of the other party personally in my area, you know, but there's a lot of, like,

That's my identity. That's who I am is this thing. It's not like a lot of like sitting around the coffee table, at least talking about it, but people are internalizing it and probably identifying. Yeah. And, and surrounding themselves. Yeah. Surrounding themselves with those people that agree with them. You know, I personally have an interesting situation where Eva goes to public school in America now. Like I'm, I'm able to surround myself with a lot of unique personalities.

perspectives and people. And if you're willing to open your mind to that, you can surround yourself with people who completely disagree with you in a lot of things, but you'll still be buddies. You know, you can still kind of bridge the divide there as long as you kind of have an open mind. I do think that like in America in particular, people are a little bit more compartmentalized because the houses are so damn big.

Like, my house is enormous, and I got four bedrooms in my house, and we only use two of them. And, you know, Eva doesn't even use the second one. She sleeps in our bed, you know? And I go to Annie, I'm like, you realize we got a huge house, and we're all sleeping in the same bedroom, you know?

And we have kitchens, whereas, you know, big, useful kitchens. Whereas in Asia, I always found myself going out and, you know, because food is fairly cheap and there's like a lot of places to go and there's a lot of food variety and things like this. And

And, and it, whereas in America there's like your meat and potatoes and then there's your meat and potatoes and then there's your hamburgers and then yours, you know, it's, it's, it's not, doesn't necessarily have the wide variety of, of foods that maybe you can get here. And so I'm like people like Annie and I, we eat in the house every day and we have a fairly compartmentalized life and then we'll visit family and then we'll come back to the house and then the, the, the, the, the, and, uh,

I mean, I don't know. I don't know. It's not as, what I would say is it's not very exciting, you know? Like, it's sort of like,

You know, you got your Walmart and then you got your Meijer and then you got your Kroger. And I live in Southeast Michigan. I mean, people in Boston are going to be living a different segment of the American life and the people in Los Angeles are going to be doing that as well. So it's, you know, I can only talk about the place that I live. More like suburban life. Very suburban. Very suburban, you know. Yeah, that sounds about right for suburban life. Yeah, yeah. You know, so, you know.

But I've seen him since he's come back to China. I've seen him light up. He draws a lot of comparison between America and China. But it's very interesting to see when he's walking. We walked through downtown Shenzhen and suddenly he says like,

you know, I like this. I like the energy. I like the lights. I like things are going on. You know, I like these electric scooters and people walking and it's chaos, but it works, you know, like it's harmonic chaos in some ways, you know, and then I really see it. And I like, he is,

more he's just energized by all the energy around i mean on our walk here we came from the the river like the huangpu uh area where you got the nice view we walked here yeah and then he said the same thing he was like you know like how can you not be energized by what's going on we were walking through like a very busy street and it was like you know there were old people there were young people and everybody was having a good time you know like i mean not

Maybe some people were having a bad day, but like you just see so many different types of people and that like is a very inspiring thing. Some people don't like that. You know, there's some people that don't like the tons of people. Yeah, some people don't like being in an urban city, crowded, you know, busy, loud. Yeah. Yeah. I have friends who like they came to visit me and they're like, I don't know how you do it.

And they go back and this particular friend, he lives in Arizona and he lives on a ranch, right? Like, you know, acres and acres of land without, before you see your next neighbor. Heaven to a lot of people. Yeah. He takes care of his horses, you know, he doesn't like to be in this chaotic urban environment. Yeah. Which leads me to ask you in terms of Tice, when you saw Matt's, you know, eyes light up, you know, just by being here in the city,

how much of that is China related versus if you were to go to any of the big cities, let's say in the States, would you feel that same energy? Would your eyes light up? Would you be pumped about that as well? Is it just being in a city or is it being in a Chinese city? Yeah. Well, I, I, I think there is, there is a part of that just being in the city energy, but, but,

Don't forget, he's also a vlogger, you know, and if the people around him are sort of welcoming a camera, that's like supercharging him because now he can be relaxed. He can be vlogging around and people are just like, what is that? And like, hi, you know, like all that sort of stuff. And he loves that. You're not walking around Boston putting a camera, sticking a camera in people's faces. My comfort level for this being a vlogger is in Asia,

so much more relaxed you know um there's there's lots of moments i was in in the states and people would like give you the stink eye or they would be like how you know sheltering their kids from the camera like like i'm accosting them with my lens you know and i'm not like like tice's uh we were we were walking around uh west lake the other day and this guy comes by

And he's wearing rollerblades. And he's got one of those hip-mounted speakers. And it's blasting Chinese music. And he is just... Having a good time. He's in his element. He's grabbing strollers away from parents. What?

With little babies. With little babies. Living babies. And grandmas too. And he's wheeling them around and dancing and he's looking at the parents with this big grin on his face like, and the kid starts screaming, crying. Crying. He's like, oh, here's your baby back. And like...

And then he comes up to Thijs and starts, like, grabbing Thijs and trying to do the waltz with him, you know? Hey, man, I'm European, okay? Like, I'm from the Netherlands where just act normal, you're already crazy enough. It's a Dutch saying. I can see it in his face. He's like, oh, shit, you know? Enough, enough. I was like, cola, cola, you know? No more. Yeah.

He didn't stop. Yeah, he didn't stop for a little bit. In the States, that guy would have been arrested already. Well, in the States, they're doing it for different reasons, you know? They're probably high on something or whatever, you know? But, like...

Tice was having this sort of like reaction and I was saying that would have been a fun thing if he would have grabbed me and I would have, you know, so back to the, like what we were talking about, like, like, you know, in America, people are nervous. And then in China, people are liking it over almost overly engaging.

you know, and that makes good content. It also makes good feelings, you know, for me as far as life goes, you know. And in America, it just seems like people are a little way, way more apprehensive. They're way more apprehensive about like involving themselves and strangers that are doing things and they feel, you know. And I think also it's just like a general feeling of maybe shame because like here you would have like, you know, old people dancing and all of that sort of stuff or even doing karaoke in the park. I mean, they...

they sound may not be very like nice, but they melt it out. But the confidence is there and everybody just like chips in and like enjoys it, you know? And that's what I really love about, uh, I think Asia in general, where you've got that sort of sentiment. Well, it's more of a communal society, right? Um, West, a lot of many Western countries, not all, but like, uh, you know, especially the States is, is very not communal. And I think the idea of, um,

this concern with safety is probably at the top of people's minds a lot in that culture. I mean, I could, I like when I lived there, yeah. Like you couldn't just like walk up on people and just, you know, there was always this kind of, this idea of like personal space is also much more valued in America. Whereas it's much less of a thing here. And,

And, you know, for a long time, I didn't really know how to feel about that because I kind of like enjoy my personal space sometimes. Especially when it's really crowded, you don't want, you don't want people personally. It can be overwhelming if you're not used to it.

And so like, we all kind of respect that here that doesn't exist. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, it's, it's a very different culturally and what people are aware of is very different. Let me tell a story. So Eva went to a school before the one she's going to now. She, we lived in a few different areas when, when Annie and Eva first came, we rented a place for a year and then we moved into our permanent home. And so they were going to a public school.

and there was a shooting at a gas station, like right outside of the school. And the guy got away, and he was on the loose. And so they shut down the whole area. The school was inside that area. Eva was at school. We weren't allowed to get her. We got texts on our phone that said there was a shooting.

one of many that we get in the school district it was like not a week went by that we got a message from the superintendent saying that drugs were found in school or somebody was dealing in school or somebody brought a knife to school or there was every week you get a message like every freaking week you know and i'm like this is crazy you know this is crazy but in this case i

The guy was on the loose. He had a gun. He was armed. And so the police put out a message to everybody saying, lockdown. So Eva was in a class. I think there's probably like 23 kids in her class. And they split half of them and half went into a closet and the other half went into another closet. They closed the doors, locked them, turned off the lights. And they sat in those closets waiting to God knows what for four hours.

And then we got messages finally that was like, the guy was apprehended. You can go now, you can now go to school to pick up your kid. It was like, even after the time of the school got out, like they had to sit in this closet. And then we brought Eva home and, you know, me and Annie were talking about what we, you know, how are we going to talk to her? Like, you know, obviously she went through something traumatic and,

We're like, honey, are you okay? And she's like, I'm okay. You know, it was just, you know, just they'd gone through a bunch of drills. So they were ready for it. You know, they went through shooting drills in these schools. She's in elementary. So it's second grade, you know? And then, uh, you know, she's like, yeah, but you know, the kids were, the kids started talking, you know? So I had to tell them that you need to be quiet or the man is going to come in here and kill us all. And like, when she said that, I'm like,

Wait, she said that to the other kids? She said that to the kids, you know, she's a responsible kid. She's smart. And, you know, so she was like, you better, you have to be quiet or else the man's going to come in here and going to kill us all, you know? And I'm like, why is my daughter even saying these words coming out? Kids should not even say these words coming out of her mouth, especially at like, at like six, seven years old. It's crazy. What are you talking about? You know?

And, uh, you know, I was like, what, what are you doing? You know, what are we doing here? And America has a real problem with this. This specific thing is a real, real problem. And as you know, like, you know, even since I left, it was like every, every few weeks, it was like some sort of school shooting or some sort of shooting here or there. Most of them in schools, which is like the worst place that you'd ever want a shooting to be taking place, you know?

And then there's just... It's like shooting, apologizing. Shooting, apologizing. Shooting, apologizing. Oh, we're so sorry. You know, this is, you know... Thoughts and prayers, you know? And it's just a cycle of bullshit, you know? It's like, these are our kids, you know, that are in these kind of situations. I mean, it's getting even worse, right? Because they want to, like...

They want to fix it by arming the teachers. Yeah, I mean, there was a big talk about that. Well, you know, it's going to fix those gun problems. More guns, baby. And it's like a real... That's a real thing. There's a lot of people in China. Oh, there's a lot of guns in America. Yes. Yes. That is certainly not an overblown statement. It's not like the wild, wild west. People are shooting themselves constantly. And in a lot of ways, crime is down in America in many statistics, but...

But like that was a real life situation that happened to me and my family that was like, this doesn't happen anywhere else. And if it did, it would be like the biggest news. You know what I mean? Like shut down the school. There's a shooting in the area. If that happened here in China, if that happened, you know, anywhere else. I mean, because, because there's not so many guns, because if that did happen, that would be, how did that guy get a gun? You know, how did that happen? Yeah. I remember when I was growing up in the States, um,

It was like the first major one, Columbine, right? And so at that time, it was the biggest news. Like there was no bigger news than that. It was like mind blown. People were in shock. The whole country was in shock. It was at the same level as like September 11th, right? It was like the whole country shut down. It's like, oh my God, it's only news. And for a while after that,

There were other shootings that happened that were also really big news. But I think over time and over the decades, now a shooting, a mass shooting is like, you really don't even... It's a Tuesday. It's crazy. It's just background noise now. Yeah. It doesn't even make the front page. It's just like, oh yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

There was one country I wanted to bring this up. So in Serbia, because they in the 90s went through a war with like the Balkans. That was a big thing. So a lot of people still had guns in their houses just in case, you know, shit hits the fan again. But now they had two shootings in Serbia, just like short after each other. And after that last shooting...

collectively the whole country was done with it so there was a huge gun like what do you call that like buyback sort of campaign going on and everybody chipped in like everyone was on board with mountains of guns yeah and the government too like they were all collectively just done with that and I think Australia went through a similar time I don't know when that was but

I feel like America is the only place where it went the other way. - The opposite. - It went totally the opposite direction. - Yeah. Was it, maybe it was Sweden or Switzerland. There was one of those countries, I don't want to like just lump all those countries together, but I forget like one country is like the culture is like everyone owns a gun. Everyone, like kids have guns. They're taught to use and handle guns at a very early age. It's part of the culture there. These like gun fairs that everyone participates in. It's like really much part of the culture.

But there's no gun violence. And I say that because I'm trying to look at it from all sides. It's like, how much of it is this underlying kind of issue in terms of really just the health of the society rather than just the amount of guns? Obviously, the amount of guns contributes, right? But...

you know, there's got to be more to that, right? I feel like the NRA is a big factor, right? Like they're like a big, the rifle association. Of course, they're a huge lobby. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, just in general, like lobbyists, you know, like that sort of like thing is, you know, really... There's a lot of like, it's just a...

it's just a messaging issue. You know what I mean? Like, like, I mean, I, I'm not sure. I feel like I've heard that story about the country that you're talking to about, but I, I can't quite place it, but I think it's Switzerland or Canada. Canada has like, there's a lot of people that hunt and have guns in Canada, you know, and their, their situation is quite different from ours, you know? And so per capita, you know,

And there is certainly something. I think like NRA and this idea that you have to protect yourself with that gun on your hip and you're going to carry that thing. And it's kind of like hyping up of using your weapons. Like guns don't kill people. People do. And like, well, people are going to hold that gun too. You know, like the gun is the tool, you know. I guess it's the notion of like self-defense. Like having the right to defend yourself. Keep it on you. Keep it on you. Have it ready. Have it ready.

ready, get it on, get it good. And then all of a sudden now I use it now, you know? And then, so there's all this kind of like reactionary, like gun use. Well, it's part of the constitution. So it was like part of the founding of the country.

Right. And obviously a lot of these things are outdated, right? Since then. But like, it's just part of the very fabric of, I think the mindset of what it is to be an American is being able to arm yourself and protect yourself. And there is a part of that, that personally I do sympathize with a lot. Like I've been, I'm generally pretty anti-gun. Like I don't, like I wouldn't want to own one, but yeah.

If I were to move back to the States right now, I'd probably get a gun. Yeah. Right? Just because, like, if everyone else has one, why would I be the one not having one? Well, the line in the Constitution is about a well-armed militia, a well-regulated militia. That's true. To, you know, protect against, you know, tyranny, basically. You know, so...

Regulated is in the Constitution, and regulations is one of the things that the NRA and all of these people want to push against. Regulation is one step closer to...

gun ban you know so they're pushing against the words that are in the constitution you know like like like regulation isn't always a bad thing you know like and especially in the situation where people who are mentally unstable have the access to these guns and a lot of people will argue against me oh no no we got rules against that well you know a lot of the people who are mentally unstable are getting these guns like the proof's in the pudding man you know

And, you know, parents, you know, and luckily, what was the last shooting? They actually sentenced the parents.

that actually got sentenced. So that's a good thing, right? What kind of sentence did they get? I don't remember. I don't remember. But they certainly got some sort of a punishment, and it was, like, warranted because they were almost floiting the little bit of regulation that had... the regulations that are out there. And they were like, yeah, son, you can have a gun. And then the school was saying, this kid's a little unstable, you know? And then they just kept ignoring it and letting him have those guns. I mean, they were...

they were one of the catalysts for him being able to perform that act, you know, but, but anyways, you know, that's, you know, something I've been exposed to directly while I was in, while I've been in the States the last three years has been this just like worsening and worsening and worsening of this, like this weird violent act that is performed with this one tool that happens over and over and murdering, you know, school children, you know, it's just quite crazy, you know? Yeah.

Well, I think a lot of arguments in the States are framed in this slippery slope argument. You see it in politics all the time. Even things...

Look, I'm not trying to defend Trump, but even things they say about Trump, it's almost framed also in a slippery slope. Like, oh, if you let him do this, it's like one step closer to like fascism and tyranny. And like, you know, so they take like the most extreme thing and use that to justify that any steps that you take in terms of like, let's say regulation or new policies is just taking one step closer to that extreme outlier.

that's like really bad, right? So there's always this like thing where everything, every argument is always framed in a slippery slope. And I think one,

I think that adds a lot of fear and anxiety in general to people living there where they start thinking in those terms as well. And then when you think in those terms, then there is no nuance anymore in terms of like, oh, well, maybe this regulation is actually good and actually could benefit and swing things the other way. No, everything is framed as, oh, that's just one step closer to this ultimate horrible outcome of like hell. Well, I do hear that on that side, but it's used...

a lot on his side as well of course you know like that's it that's his mo you know both sides and left is you know the the devil and the deep state and it all you you know kamala harris will be the end of society as we know it you know the the brimstone and you know all of that democracy give me a break man it's just gonna be a continuation of you know boring democratic policies you know yeah which i was sort of

I was sort of hoping for, you know, bring back the boring, please, a little bit. Like, I just feel like in America, every four years, every election cycle, we have like collective amnesia.

And we forget that like every sitting president basically comes through on like zero to very few of their promises during the campaign. But every four years we forget that and we feel like, oh, well, this next guy, he's going to really change things and this will be the answer and this will really set the way. Like we buy back into this hero worship all over again every four years. But on the main large track of things, I feel like,

It doesn't really affect, like, I don't think it affects, like, in a huge part, like, foreign policy. I feel like people who decide that are not really necessarily always consulting the president on these things. I don't think he'll have an influence on, like, Ukraine and, like, his relationship with Putin. I think Trump could. Yeah. Because he is a little bit of an outlier in that he could.

has shown maybe he is willing to go rogue a little bit. And he has this ego where he kind of wants to make the decisions. And he has his, I think he has his perspective on what those things should be. But I think by and large, the president alone, even if he wanted to, won't necessarily have, maybe necessarily the power to really upend a lot of the deep-rooted established

thinking and agenda. But it's also a long-term sort of trend, you know, because like he's already been in power once and maybe it doesn't seem like at that moment he has done a lot of changes, but over time it's slowly going towards a trend where, I mean, I am European, you know, so I'm very concerned about the fact that

He doesn't want to support us if we're under attack. Like that's, I mean, we've been pretty stupid by making our armies basically as little as possible and spending money on all of our social services and making the lives of the people better. But it's, you know, it's expensive while America has been like, you know, keeping their defense like global domination, like established, you know? Yeah. So, but I do think that now with Trump and especially vice president. J.D. Vance. J.D. Vance.

It's going into a general trend where America is just going to isolate itself more and more. I mean, it's not going to be like, you know, the next day he's just going to be like hands-free from Europe. You know, there's something there. But I feel like it's going into that direction. And Europe is now like waking up like, oh, shit, we got to, you know, we got to do something. But...

you know we're we're we're small you're left vulnerable we're very right now we're very vulnerable you know we got a lot of like we don't we have the eu but it's by no means the same as a united states you know like it's still individual countries we have individual armies and it's just going to take a long time before we can sort of group ourselves into like a big force that can take a power like russia so that's from a european perspective i'm

quite concerned of like just like how the general trend is going right yeah yeah no i i can i can understand that for sure are you frustrated at all with how dependent europe in general has become on the united states i mean to begin with because that's been a long-term thing as well that's accumulated and and and changed over the years for sure yeah totally i mean i i

In some ways, if you dial it back even five years, it sort of makes more sense. Because the world was in a more peaceful. So we were like, all right, let's trade instead of arming ourselves. So I understand where it was coming from. But I am a bit frustrated indeed that the EU is not coming closer together. That's my big thing where I'm like, come on, we should really group ourselves. Because right now, how it's also going in the economy. For example, AI is a big thing right now. Technological advancement. And...

The US and China are doing... They're all in on this. And Europe is like, no, we got to regulate things first. We got to make laws first. GDPR and all of these different regulations before we can allow you to do AI. There have already been a few things that OpenAI has published in the US, but not yet in Europe because Europe has to figure out their laws first. And we're just...

I'm a bit scared that we're just going to end up in this entangled, like, bureaucratic, like, process for a long time and we're just going to miss the boat. Mm.

You know, we're going to be a museum rather than part of the future. That's my big... You're going to fall too far behind where there is no catching up anymore. I mean, you see it already with like the big car manufacturers in Germany, the carbines. They are not doing very well at the moment, you know. Like they're closing factories and then the German, like that car world is going down a bit. So, yeah. Yeah, now they were already competing with US car makers. Now they have the Chinese...

automakers to compete with as well. Wait, there's Chinese automakers? I have no idea. See, I don't know when to take you seriously. I mean, I don't know. I was looking out at the streets and I saw just

I didn't see any Chinese automakers. Yeah, you just saw wagons and horse-drawn carts. Rickshaws. Literally outside the door, there is a rice field. Like, literally outside the door. And then a guy playing an Arhu. You know? No, I mean, like, we... When I got out of the airport here, I was expecting to see some more brands of cars and stuff like that. It is...

It's insane. What's happened in the last three years. Insane. Insane. And they are like beautiful cars. They are nice. We took a... What did you take over here? I was doing a DD and I accidentally hit the luxurious button. The twin, sir. The six-seater. Oh, okay. The van. But the nice, luxurious... It was like a family car. Dude. Oh.

What was it? Was it a Maxis? I can't remember. What was the logo? It was kind of like the one that had two lines and one line in the center. It looked sort of like it was trying to be a Tesla logo. Okay. I'm not sure which one that was. It might have been Maxis. It might have been like... It was freaking amazing. It had a dashboard that was like one panel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it had like a panel in the back for the kids. And they had like these independent chairs. You can back and forth. If that was in America...

Forget it, but Buick's be gone. Yeah, that's the thing with... See you later. Whenever I, like, I mentioned, you know, because I have some friends who are into electric vehicles in the States and, you know, I have family members who don't live in China and, you know, they're always asking me. And when I try to tell them about, like, the electric vehicle, like...

landscape here in China, it always sounds like hyperbole. Yeah, I know, I know. It is real. It always sounds like, and I hear it myself, I'm like, if I didn't know any better and I was listening to this, I would think I would be like exaggerating out my ass, right? George Jetsons, you know? But it's really true. It is insane. It's insane. It's insane. Like, we were like, we were driving at the Canton Fair and we were driving to the Canton Fair from the hotel and I'm like, let's just see how many Chinese brands there are. And as we're driving down the road, I'm like,

you know, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I'm like, what do you think the percentages versus foreign brands versus Chinese brands here in China? That's a tricky differentiation because a lot of the foreign brands are

are actually Chinese-backed now. Volvo. Volvo was bought. Like Chinese brand that's in their cars are made here? No, like the company got like bought. It's like Chinese-owned. Wow. Okay. So like outright. So in terms of a rough ratio or percentage on the street, how many are Chinese versus foreign? What would you say?

Maybe like a 60-40. Yeah, we were thinking the same. 60-40. Yeah, yeah. I feel like it used to be a couple years ago, you could say 50-50. Now, I think it's 60-40. And the brands that you do see, are there beautiful brands?

but I think a lot of what contributes to the 60, 40 percentage that I'm, I'm assuming or guessing or estimating is also the adoption rate of electric vehicles here. Right. And the infrastructure. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you have a much higher adoption rate of electric vehicles. Like you see so many electric vehicles. So many, um,

- But there is also-- - And then so less and less ICE cars, like internal combustion engine. So like less and less of those traditional cars, more electric vehicles. If you were to go to other countries, like especially the States, the adoption rate is not even nearly-- - Not even close. - Yeah. - There's a lot of electric cars in America, but they're not, they're nowhere close, nowhere close to what I've seen. - Well, like the infrastructure isn't really built out to support that. - No, yeah.

That's a big thing. And it's also been very politicized there as well. Right, right, right. Well, I mean, until Elon Musk donated $50 million to Trump. And then all of a sudden, did you hear what he said? He's like, I tell you what, I didn't like electric cars, but Elon Musk gave me a $50 million, so...

I like him. I like him a lot. I'm like, I mean, there you go. He straight up tells you exactly the corrupt style of like, holy shit. But that might be a good thing if electric cars are going to be a bit more boosted, I guess. I mean, he's in Taiwan. He says it's loud as hell over there.

It's crazy. That's one of the main things that I really like here. Just the amount of electric. Also electric scooters. You're on the street. You're on busy streets. There's less noise and there's less smell. If I'm in Taiwan, I'm walking. You got these park areas, but you're right side, one of these big roads. And they have these two sections. So you have this park and it's along two roads. It's not nice. It's just the smell of fuel, the loudness and everything. Also, even if you're driving on the scooter, you smell it all the time in here.

It's like I can breathe. I would have thought Taiwan would have, be a step ahead of that particular thing. You see a few like Teslas, but you know, like they're blocking out all of the Chinese manufacturers. You know, like I haven't seen a BYD or any Chinese car there. So it's still like, you know, your Toyota, Corolla, you know, those type of cars, you know, a lot of,

Of course, all the scooters are still gas powered over there. Yeah, you have one local brand. It's called Gogoro, which is pretty nice. You got like these takeout batteries and they got these stations everywhere so you can take them out. But unless you're in a city,

it really doesn't make much sense because, you know, there's just not enough infrastructure for it. He lives in the countryside. I live, I live, I really live among the rice fields, you know? So yeah. That's nice though. I can picture that. Yeah. And after all this, all these so many years, like living in a city, like I, I romanticize about living in the countryside now. Oh yeah. Yeah. But, but I know for a fact I'll spend one week out there and I want to be back in the city. That's just my preference. You'll get your fill. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

What about you? Where have you been the last three years? I've been here. Have you left at all? Like traveled around China? I've done a little bit of traveling, just mostly in Asia. Okay. What is the biggest difference you've seen over the last three years here in China? In China? Yeah. Yeah, well, I've been gone.

A lot of expats left. That was very noticeable. Exodus. Yeah, there was a big exodus. But at the same time, there are a lot of new expats coming in at the same time. But just from different types of countries than there were before. So you're getting less Americans, less Canadians, people like that. You're getting more people from South America. You're getting more people from Eastern Europe. Just a kind of a different demographic of expats that were here before. So it's kind of this swap.

- Of course, coming out of the lockdown here, I think a lot of people were in this collective trauma, I guess, from it. So obviously that affects the economy, affects businesses. You see a lot of small business turnover. A lot of them couldn't survive, but then you see new ones popping up now. So now there's this new renaissance here of these new restaurants and these new shops and things that weren't here before just a couple of years ago.

I've talked to Howie about this. It's like the second mini renaissance happening in Shanghai. These new entrepreneurs or business owners who are kind of restarting their business or just brand new people fresh into Shanghai are kind of starting businesses. They're upping the bar now. So I think the standard has been raised. And you see that in the food, in the Western food here.

So I feel like there's this new renaissance in that respect. I was really surprised when I came to China. I mean, I've been bringing him to like all the Western... Tice introduced me to this like Western brand, this really, really like amazing fine dining experience. And we were walking on our way here, actually. We would have made it on time. Instead, as we crossed the road on the way here before we got to People's Square, Tice said, grab me by the arm. And he's like, stop, please. And I said, well, what are you doing? You know, he's like, sir.

He says, we have...

we have a possibility of having a culinary experience, the likes of which few on earth have experienced outside of America. And I want to partake amongst the privileged few who have the opportunity to eat this culinary tool of flavor explosion. And I said, well, Tice, let us partake amongst the Chinese community and see how luxurious an experience we can have.

And so basically I stuffed a fucking Five Guys sandwich into my mouth and it is still making its way around my innards.

And he's like, five guys. I got to have a five guys. I've heard so much about it. So this was your first time having a five guys? Yes. Okay. How'd you think about it? It was good. It was good. It was good in the moment. Yeah, right, right. It was good in the moment. When we walked out of that, we were both like,

That wasn't a snack, okay? I just wanted a snack. We wanted a snack. We didn't feel like a big lunch. We wanted a snack. And then I looked at Matt and I was like, he's American. I am not American. I want to give, like, I want him to give me an American experience as in like going to Five Guys and, you know. Holy cow.

And I didn't make him happy. And it's kind of been a little bit of a trend during this trip. I've had more hamburgers since I left America and came to China than I have had in America. Because he wants to have a burger with an American guy. Look, look.

Hong Kong we had burgers. Shenzhen we had burgers. Guangzhou we had a couple of burgers. Let me get this straight. Every meal, Thijs uses that as an excuse to have a burger. It's because you're American and he wants to have a burger. He's killing me. I mean, that's one part, but the other part is because we're in big cities. I mean, I'm from the Taiwanese countryside. That's where I live. That's where I spend months. I get it.

So like, I don't really have access to like good Western food on a daily basis. And I was really surprised actually by, you know, coming back to like the quality of the Western food is really good. - It is good. It was a good Five Guys. - I want to clarify though, when I was saying this Renaissance, I wasn't talking about Five Guys. Like I like Five Guys. - I was being sarcastic. - I wasn't talking about the commercial change. - But we've also been to like good, like actual good restaurants. Like in Guangzhou,

These hold-on-the-wall mama pop stores that are doing Western food. They're doing a really good job. It's neat to see. We came up... So when we went to the Canton Fair, and we went up that river that Guangzhou is nestled against, and man, oh man.

If you really want to get an idea of the power of import-export in this country, like, it was just... Because I had been involved in, like, shipping and logistics and my job and everything, you know, and I used ports all the time, you know, and it was FOB this or, you know, this or that, and then you're dealing with container loads going in and out of each port and things like that. But when we were sailing up that river...

And we just started a parade of freighters. Just counting the gantries. The cranes just didn't stop. Gantries and gantries. I mean, like thousands of them. And Guangzhou port is what, the sixth largest? Yeah. Which one's the first largest? Is it Shanghai? Ningbo. Ningbo and Shanghai, I think one and two. Yeah, Shanghai's up there too, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I couldn't...

think of anything bigger than what I saw on the river. And that was the sixth. Yeah, it was crazy. And like, Tice, you said, what did you say? Like, you got a real perspective of...

Well, like there's sometimes they're saying like China now, but tomorrow it's going to be Vietnam and like it's going to shift. But I don't really think it's going to shift. How are you going to move that? You can't relocate that power. China is like set up for this trading. They are like, they have it all. You know, they're making it all. And that was like just like a physical like see that. Manifestation. Manifestation. And it went on like the ferry was about, was it three hours? Yeah.

all four hours. For a good two hours out of those three hours, it was just ports that we saw. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we went to Iwu. Have you been to Iwu? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Have you usually been to the market, like, Funtian Market and walked around? Yeah, you go to Iwu, you go sourcing there. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, we were at a point and Tice was looking down a hallway and it looked like some sort of a twilight zone where the hall never ends. You know, like, it just goes on and on. And then you turn 90 degrees and looked at the hall next to you and nothing.

That one never ended? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're like, you know, you're thinking of the directions and like, you're like, holy shit, I'm in like a metropolis, a city that's a building that's each 10-foot section is another product represented by another factory who hires probably 30 or 40 or 50 or 100 people in some part of China that is shipping their goods to this little hole, little section, little bit, you know, like each one of those things is its own microcosm. And you're like, and it's going on for like,

Miles and miles. And it's like, I've been to Iwu before, but it was just like sort of like at that intersection, which are like roads. They're like little roads. Yeah, they open like street names and numbers and everything. Holy. You know, I've just had a few of those because I've been in America for three years. I've sort of been sort of walking my opinion, my objectivity back to the American style, you know? So it was kind of nice because I'm shocked by things again, you know? Like, I'm like, oh, I hope.

Oh, you know, constantly being surprised. And I like that, you know. I find it also quite interesting. There's like a big Middle Eastern presence there. Like we ate at a Turkish restaurant. It was like great Turkish food. Yeah, it was like halal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that was like, Eewoo was like a very interesting place to go to. It was pretty crazy. It's a melting pot, right? And then you have like Middle Asia there. Like people, business people doing like, you know, it's just the world, kind of where the whole world connects. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's awesome.

And I'd never heard of it before coming to the Canterbury. Like, R. R. Chapman was going to the Canterbury and then, like, I think it was Annie who was saying, like, yeah, we should go to, you should go to EWU.

And I was like, what is EWU? It's like a whole universe that you never know. Yeah, right, right, right. Like you're thinking like, you know, if I buy a product, that company is probably making that product. And now we went to like the back end of like how basically trade works, you know, and that was a very, very interesting insight for me. Like if you had an idea for a brand that revolved around camping.

You could go to EWU and establish relationships with the company that makes the tent, and you'd say, I want my tent this way with my logo at this part and packaged in this way. And then you'd go to the next company that makes walking sticks, and you'd say, I want the, the, the, the, the. And you could build an entire brand of your own and contractually make sure that they don't talk about your product's lines to their public.

And you could literally off-site all of the manufacturing of your entire brand. And then when you sell that in a store in America, they would just assume that that's all your stuff that you made. You know what I mean? Like most consumers in America look at things and think that the company with the name on the brand is the company that makes that thing. And that's actually quite rare, you know? They have no idea what...

is actually happening. - Yeah, it's coming from a freaking town in China, you know? - Yeah, and you get fooled. And that's why I think a lot of brands, well, a lot of brands in general, but certainly a lot of brands back in the States, they put so much more emphasis on the branding and packaging and the marketing language and everything like that, because that's the real differentiator is how do you package yourself? How do you market yourself?

Because at the end of the day, a lot of these things are like coming from the same sources, like more or less. It takes like, you know, you have some companies who are really kind of trying to break that mold and try and do things yourselves, but it's really difficult. And as the buyer or the consumer, you're going to pay the premium for that as well. But just think about it. Even like the biggest companies in the world, like the biggest tech companies, even they are not all making their own like products.

things, you know, like they're buying from third parties and then putting things together. We think these like middle brands, like these kind of midsize brands aren't like, you think they can just have their own supply chain of like making everything in house? No, like everything is comes from a source.

And that source, more likely than not, more often than not, is coming from China. From China. At some point in the supply chain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even if it's not being assembled in China. At some point, the raw materials are coming. Some components are coming. And that's what I found so fascinating. Because some of these sources are just families. Kids running around across the halls and stuff like that. In terms of the conflict in Ukraine as a European country.

Like, how do you see that playing out? Is that something that is still, like, really top of mind for many people in Europe? I mean, obviously people in Ukraine, but, like, people outside of Ukraine. How, like, much in the ether is it

Not much. No, I mean, like the Israel-Gaza conflict has totally taken over. Really? Yeah, I'm just worried about the trend for full-on war and that sort of stuff. Like I've seen, you know, that as well. Yeah. Sometimes it gets heated because we don't really understand what lens...

or what perspective the other person is seeing the world through and because of their own experiences of where they come from and things that they've been through and you know what, and that I would have no idea about them. Right. I've basically come to the realization that pretty much all my political beliefs right now were driven by this one fear of the US and China actually going to war with each other.

And in many aspects, we're already in a Cold War. But I mean, like a real hot war. And that was kind of a really big revelation to me. It sort of makes sense because I've heard from Matt, you've born in America, right? Like you've been brought up. I grew up in America, yes. Okay, you grew up in America. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have like a very interesting perspective where you grew up in America, but now you live in China. Yeah. You know, so that's...

What you're saying makes sense to me because you're living in that context very much. Yeah, I've always felt like...

you know, I've lived on both sides. You're a bridge. Yeah. And I have perspective for both sides and I have empathy for both sides. So from my perspective, I'm very quick to see like the ridiculousness of a lot of the way people in the States believe and think about China. And it just drives me insane. And sometimes, honestly, I wish I was just more ignorant to these things. I wish I didn't see both sides. I wish I was just one of them and just could just

buy into this to this being captured in this like this belief and yeah yeah and then so i wouldn't have to propaganda yeah yeah i wouldn't have to be frustrated with with you know me feeling like i'm alone here like seeing all this shit you know yeah i mean i don't see china going into a hot war with uh america like i mean anything's possible in the future you know but and and progression it doesn't take much like what you were you were talking to me about like how like

water meandering on a river will create a canyon over time. You know, like it doesn't take much force. It just takes steady direction and consistency for some big thing to happen. And that can be a good big thing or it can be a bad big thing, you know. And if you're consistently, you know, slowly knocking button heads with the two countries, you know, eventually something's going to crack, you know what I mean? And that crack could be big, you know, that could be a big problem, you know.

I'm a consummate optimist, try to be, you know, for the most part. So, like, obviously, I don't see that all the time. Yeah, I mean, and, like, if you're that polarizing force, you can do some real damage. Like, we've seen, you know, we're one of the YouTubers, you know, that's...

Has a very specific view towards China. He's lived in China. He now lives in the US. But he's really making things sound like China is just this very bad place. Like, for example, these EV cars. You know, he made this highlighted video about, like, the EV cars are on fire. Exploding. Exploding. Are you talking about a specific... Yeah, we're not talking about me. We're not talking about you. No, no, no. I thought it was like... No, no, it was another guy. When did I make that video? So, another YouTuber. Another YouTuber. Yeah. And so, I mean, like...

And is all the content he makes just like all anti-shitting on China stuff? Pretty much. Yeah, pretty much. We know who we're talking about. That's what I don't get with these. I mean, it happens on both sides. So if you're always just like, oh, fucking China's the greatest country in the world. Like, if you look at people's past experiences

And the entire history of that work is just consistently one message. I tune it out. You already know. I already tune it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that's not reality. Yeah. Reality isn't always just one way of looking at something. The problem is there's a large audience for those people. And you might tune out, but there's a lot of people that don't. A lot of people that will not tune out. No, but I wonder, and I don't know, how much of it is just like, oh, they're taking it as like this is news, like real news to them.

or or is it just like porn you know like they know it's not real but yeah they just feel like it's fun to watch or they feel vindicated like you know i don't know for whatever reason it's like it's like pornographic to them yeah but it doesn't have to be real it's just it's it's kind of like the exposure is going to make you think true it's real and then me coming to china and seeing that basically the total opposite like he's just putting under the rug what is so good about china which is this electric shift

You know, that is something that I find so impressive. But if you just follow those videos, it's probably the worst thing about China. You think that. You think it's like, that's like really bad and scary and that sort of stuff about China. Well, it's actually like one of the most impressive things I've seen. Were you ever, before you came to China, and maybe even before you ever met Matt, were you ever convinced that

Like by watching those videos, like, or like, were you, did you ever go down that rabbit hole before then? I have watched a lot of his videos and I've watched a lot of Matt's videos. I like the beef. I was like, you know, that's maybe my porno or porn. So I'm like, Oh, I like, I like the beef. But I am a type of person that I want to see the real, you know, I know both sides, but

are saying different things. So I really want to know what's going on. And that's when I went on this path, like learning Chinese and doing all of that sort of stuff and moving to Taiwan and being part of the conversation, which is very cool. His Chinese makes me want to shoot myself. Yeah.

Why? Because it's so much better than yours? Yeah, it's so much better than mine. He'll like look at things. He'll be like reading the characters and stuff. And I'm like, you... And he just got here. And he just got here. I like inspired him to come here and he's way past me, you know? I mean, I've learned Chinese. Like I started in high school, you know? So I had Chinese class for like, well, six years, you know? And at some point I was the only one. So I had like private class for like three years. So my tones, I've learned like... So this was in the Netherlands? It was in the Netherlands. So it was...

In high school, you could take Mandarin as a class? I had one of the few high schools in the Netherlands that offered Chinese class, as opposed to like French or German or something like that. And he was the only student, so he got to sit there with the teacher. And for three years, I was the only student. No. For two years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was that unpopular. A daily private class of Chinese for three years. Yeah. I mean, understandably, you'd be pretty good at it.

But I wonder why no one else would take that class. I don't know. Yeah, it wasn't just as popular, you know. Maybe because it's harder, which is actually kind of strange because I don't think Chinese is that hard to learn. I mean, hard to write. Matt hates you even more. Yeah, I mean, I'm saying this now on the other side. So that's probably like I've probably forgotten like how long it took me to get here. But no, so I did that for six years and then I took a long time. I was just traveling. I wasn't practicing my Chinese much.

Other than like, sometimes I would meet a Chinese person. I'll be like, oh, you know, like that kind of stuff.

And then COVID hit and that's when I was like, you know, like Chinese, it's still like, I still got this base. I should do something with it. You know, I should like start learning it again. And I opened my Duolingo and I started to do that. And then like, I finished the whole Duolingo class and I was like, oh, I want to learn more. And then I started to watch YouTube videos in Chinese. And I got like just very interested in this part of the world in general.

And then I came to Taiwan on a student visa. So I finally got there and found a girl and never left. As the story goes. That's literally every expat story. That's verbatim every expat story that I've ever met, ever. But I'm wondering, why did you choose to live in the countryside and not in Taipei? Well, no, I started in a city.

You know, it was love that brought me to the countryside. - Oh, so the girl, okay, going back to the girl. - The girl brought me to the countryside, but I started in Tainan, actually. I started at Chenggong University. That was where the Chinese course was for three months. And then I did that, but I also had my job. I'm a software engineer, so I had my job for a Dutch company and I was doing that remotely.

- But I'm wondering because in Taiwan they use traditional Chinese characters. - Yes, correct, yep. - Here in the mainland they use simplified. Was that like, was that? Because I'm sure in school you probably learned traditional, right? - No, simplified. - Oh, you learned simplified, wow. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. My teacher was from Wenzhou. So she was from like the Chinese. So I had like the Chinese mainland. - Oh, that's cool. - We like char and ling, ar, ar, ar. That's like the Beijing accent is what I learned. And then I did Duolingo, which was also simplified Chinese.

But then I had to learn the traditional script. So at some point, like a year before I went, I was like, all right, I got to switch it up and I got to learn my traditional. And I went to like, I watched YouTube videos and any character I didn't know, I would write it down manually and I would write the opinion and the translation just to like drill myself into this. And it took me a good, I think about a month to like really get used to the traditional script. But I was doing it every day. No, but I was doing it every day. It took you so long. So,

Three hours a day. He's like, I like the traditional better. It's a lot easier to understand. I'm like, you bastard. I mean, there is a system to it. There is a system to it. There are like a few, like those, what do you call them? Idioms? Like the way the characters are structured. Did you know that there's heart inside of, or there's shin inside of eye? Eye. Like shin is inside of eye. I don't know. Not in the simplified one. Only in traditional.

Yeah, and a simplified, it's a simplified stroke. It's only one stroke. See, this guy is good at studying. Let's kick him out. Let's kick him out. We'll start the real podcast when he leaves. Come on now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, I've always had a knack for language learning. No, no, he's smart. No, that's awesome. Growing up, my dad always told me, you know English?

You're gonna, you need to improve your Mandarin, right? So you're gonna have those two languages. And he says, if you ever choose to learn a third language, learn Spanish.

And the reason why he said that to me, he says, like, based on the numbers, if you know English, Mandarin, and Spanish, you have most of the world's population covered. So that was his justification of like, you know, if you had to only learn three languages, learn those three languages. And you'll be able to get around in most of the world. It's like the top three, right? It's the top three most spoken languages are those three. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So...

Yeah, I mean, language is a thing. I wish I took more seriously learning languages when I was younger.

Because it's such a superpower. - We all do. - I mean, you guys are in America though, where like English is everywhere, right? - We're pros. - English is pros. - We're real good. - Like I'm from Europe, so English is not even my native language, it's Dutch. So I had to learn English at a pretty young age and French came along and German and then I did Chinese. - So you're just showing off now.

Well, no, I mean, German and French is not what I know. You know, and then there's Arabic and, you know, you gotta learn, you know, you gotta learn Swahili. As if we weren't impressed enough with his Chinese. You gotta learn Swahili, you know, and then there's... It's just, I guess, context is a big factor, you know, like just being in a context where you have to speak. I mean, my girlfriend, she's from Indonesia. Yeah.

At home, she speaks Indonesian, Hakani. She's Hakani, so she speaks that with her family. She's learned Mandarin because she's studying in Taiwan, so she's learning that now. And we're speaking English as well, but we're speaking like a mix of all of it. So it's like, you know, languages everywhere. Yeah, for sure. I think there's a societal thing, piece to it too. I think depending on where you are in some societies, there's more...

in general, not even specifically language, there's generally just more of a curiosity with the rest of the world and just more of a, of an effort to understand what's going on in other parts of the world. Growing up in America, because you're, you're, you're propagandized in America, uh,

growing up there to feel like, oh, this is the best country in the world. We're number one. No need to worry about it. Everywhere else is just a shithole. You never leave because why would you leave the best place in the world? This is fucking Disneyland. Yeah. Right? And so we're conditioned to think that and our curiosity for anything outside of the United States is,

like is very low for most people. Now there are exceptions, of course. Yeah. But I think for most people, like we just don't really care. The outside is like a novelty, you know, it's like, watch it on the Discovery Channel. Nothing is as important as what's going on in the United States. A friend of mine from, I think he was from the UK. He is also a cyclist and he was in California. And I think he, he took a train or something and started talking to a girl next to him was like American. And then he said, I'm from Europe.

And then the girl genuinely asked him, oh, there are still dinosaurs in Europe, right? Like she thought that. Yeah.

No. Come on. He said it. He said it. I don't know. That sounds like some hyperbole. Yeah, that's a good one. Well, he made it sound like dinosaurs, like living dinosaurs. Basically. Well, we have the La Brea Tar Pits. I mean, there are dinosaurs in there, you know? Maybe she was talking about crocodiles are basically dinosaurs. I don't know. I don't know. Chickens. We've got a lot of chickens. Chickens are basically dinosaurs, right? I mean, I've heard people say that. Wild. Wild.

So Matt, so being back here, so when are you leaving? When are you going back? Tomorrow morning. Well, tomorrow afternoon. So your flight back to the States is tomorrow? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So do you have plans to come back anytime soon or what's going on?

If anybody listening suits this, you can let me know. So me and Tice, we developed this app. I don't really want to talk exactly about the name of it because it's not completely refined to a T, to like sell publicly. But this trip was an opportunity for us to test it, field test it, and work some bugs out. We found out a whole bunch of bugs.

which is great. You know, like being able to test something out and see what's broken and what might... It's not broken, just things that need to be tweaked is great. And so we designed this app and it helps buyers...

deal with suppliers. It actually helps the suppliers. This is designed for Chinese factories in particular. It's a multilingual app, English and Chinese, that suppliers can use to catalog all of their items and quickly quote those items to their customers in a really clean, beautiful format. So

If there's a company out there that has like 500 or less items, SKUs, that would be willing to test it out for free, we're offering like just free...

free opportunities to road test the product. You can actually, one of the cool things about it is like the designers like on the team. So like if their product line needs a specific sort of variable that's added to the, like a customization, like a customization, like they can almost have like a product that's designed specifically for their product line. Yeah.

And then maybe I'll be in China for a little bit more, you know, like here actually pushing that product and trying to grow that. Because I really, we both have, I pitched this idea to Tice like five, six years ago when he started watching and he started helping me with my website. I was like, you know, I've always had this idea because I go to the Canton Fair every year. I've always dealing with suppliers.

I've gone to the Canton Fair as the factory, hanging out with my wife who runs a factory. So I've been a factory liaison salesperson. I've been a buyer. I've been an agent. You know, I've been a videographer walking around the show. I've seen how people, you know, work at these shows and how the relationship is when they're trying to either get an order or send out information to a customer in order to get an order later. And I've always felt like there was a big void there for something that could solve that problem in an

easy and functional way. - And I was at a point as well where I'm looking for startup ideas myself. Like I actually started my own podcast called the Thaises Tech Track. So it's like a spinoff from traveling Thais to like Thaises Tech Track. - Nice, okay. - Like just trying out different startup ideas and this exactly happened

when I was in the middle of like, what is my next idea? It was a perfect, perfect timing. It was really perfect. Like just, we sort of came together six years ago. I mean, at the time, you know, you were traveling. I was just starting. I didn't know what I was doing. And then we sort of moved away from each other. And then now we just sort of like realigned and it's become like perfect timing. You know, it's come together real nicely. Yeah. So the product looks great. It looks good. And so we're looking to, you know,

That's what I've been working on. Awesome, awesome. Are you guys also still making travel content? What's with that? Dude, I have a ton of videos coming out on the channel now. Same channel? Yeah, yeah. I have been so reinvigorated on this trip. I really lost the vibe or something. I lost my mojo.

you know, over the course of the last couple of years, it's been steadily going down and down and down. I just, just cause life got in the way, like life and you know, all of this kind of things. And, and, and so coming back to the United, uh, coming back to China and like, really like, it's been a, we've been having a great time and we've had purpose here, you know, going to the fairs and stuff like that. And I've just had the camera out the whole time and we've had a lot of like, uh,

Just even in Hangzhou when we're walking around the lake and things are coming and going and people are smiling and people are, you know, people are, you know, grabbing tights.

What I was saying, he was lighting up all the time. He loves it. He loves the energy. He loves this type of an atmosphere where things are just going on. We've walked to areas like in Shenzhen where this new city was being built. Shopping malls with this is going to be open next year. If something like that would happen in the States or even in Europe, that would be big news. The city is getting a makeover, but here it's just another...

Just another thing that's going on. Insane size stuff. Like sky cranes, like blades of grass. It is incredible.

You know, if a sky crane went up in my neighborhood in Southeast Michigan, like if it was a big project, more than one or two sky cranes, the whole city would be like up in arms about like, what is this going to do for the community? And here it's like, you'll see like skyscrapers going up left and right. Living here, you get so jaded with it. And I appreciate your perspective coming back because it reminds me that

How special it is. How special it is. It is. Just like the conversation we were having, and we'll wrap this up, but just like the conversation we were having about EVs, right? I just take so many things for granted when I live here. And I get so, just like whatever is about it,

And I mean, I guess that just comes with, you know, being in a place and being your own person. You're, you're in your bubble, you know, you see the world from that perspective and you know, I had been out and then the bubble coming back. And so like, that's been really cool. Yeah. That's always a good, a good, a good fresh reminder. Yeah. Yeah. I need to, I can be talking to you guys. I just, I need to, I need to get out more. Anyway. Cheers. Cheers. Thanks for having us. Okay.

All right, that was Matt. That was Tice. I'm Justin. Be good. Be well. Peace. See ya.