#7. Dazed and Confused
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Hello everybody, welcome to the Honest Drink Podcast. Justin here. Once again, I'm going to give a shout out today to my two friends, Adam Trank and Steve DeRosa, two guys I grew up with in Jersey. And the reason why I do that is because today's episode got me feeling a little nostalgic.

Howie, Eric, and I, we had a rollercoaster of a discussion. We talked about what it was like growing up, what our youth was like, especially within the context of drugs and alcohol. We share stories of our first encounters with drugs and how that has shaped our philosophies and how we think we will parent our kids. How do we best apply the lessons that we've learned so that they can best navigate a world full of highs and lows,

temptations, and dangers. So how do you take the good with the bad? And how will you equip them to respond? Because the lens you create for them to view these type of things may make all the difference. We also have a debate about happiness, which Eric doesn't believe in, by the way. But Howie and I, we debate, does experiencing more really bring you happiness or is ignorance bliss? Enjoy the episode. Here we go. ♪ Little, little girl, I love you so much ♪

Alright. Alright, uh... You want some ice? Yeah? Yes, we have some ice.

Howie, you brought Ardbeg. Am I pronouncing it correctly? Yeah, Ardbeg. Ardbeg whiskey. Ardbeg. And how do you say this word again? Islay. Islay. Okay, learning something new. I've always said Islay, which is... Islay! I thought it was Islay, actually. I was half correct. It's all right. So tell us about this whiskey, bud. Okay, so...

I was just looking into, because I haven't had this yet, and I was looking into some good affordable everyday sippers. This costs about like 350 RMB, 320 RMB, something like that, which is what in US dollars, like 50 bucks, something like that. Yeah. And yeah, so basically highly recommended from a lot of whiskey enthusiasts.

And I just really wanted to try it. That is awesome. I mean, generally speaking, are you into more peaty or smoky? Well, like what? So peaty means smoky, right? I think we mentioned that last time. It's just a, I mean, technical term, I'm not sure. Do you know? But it's definitely more of that rougher. It's distilled through coal or? No, but how do you describe peaty as in taste? It's like smoky? Smoky flavor, yeah. Yeah.

Alright, let's try it. Thanks for the color of this. It's not like... Cheers. It definitely smells peaty. Yes. Wow. Very complex. Very complex. And you know what's funny is because that's what they all say. This is a complex one, yeah. Especially as an entry-level...

It's actually more complex than what an entry level should be. If that makes sense. So this is for like the pros. This is like the varsity team whiskey. Maybe, yeah. I'm still on JV. I'm still playing JV when it comes to whiskey. This is for like varsity members. I'm still looking for my jockstrap. Maybe smell it. Let me smell it. It has this bit of like a little bit of a citrusy kind of feel. I like it. I can do this.

Last time, actually we didn't have drinks, but I wanted to talk to you, Eric, because we met your parents the other day. Right? First time, yes, we did. Thanks for inviting us, by the way. It was a very lovely dinner. Thanks for treating us. Your parents came in town from Texas, right? Came to Shanghai and they're on their little trip. Because your mom is like your complete doppelganger. Like you are your mother. Look at his face. No.

Like, you are exactly your mom. You have, like, I'm not talking about looks. I'm talking about personality. Yeah. Like, character. Yeah. Even the mannerisms and the way she speaks and the things that she'll talk about. Like, it's exactly how you would go about. Do you see that, though? Do you, when we say that, do you see it? Without us describing what that is. Yeah. I mean. I mean, it's not a bad thing. It's just interesting. You got to get it from somewhere. And she does have a strong personality. Yeah.

And, you know, you figure like you must be getting who you are in some part from the people that influence you the most. So I'm not surprised. But it is fascinating to be able to then get your reactions on the similarities because these aren't things that, I mean, literally you're with that person, you know, every day, you know, until you're 18. Yeah.

That's really interesting. You guys are exactly the same. It was so funny. And I loved how she was sharing stories of like you growing up as a kid, right? Because I always like to find that out about my friends. Definitely. How were they as children? What were they like? You know what I mean? Were they relatively the same or were they just completely this other, you know, different kind of person, right? Yeah.

And the way she describes you was you were like really naughty. Like in Chinese, that's how you put it, right? And I can see that. Even though you try to hide it now. Yeah. Right? We can tell. So she said your brother was like almost the nice one. Yeah. And you were almost like the rebellious one. I think it helps the parents frame and tell the story.

Because you have two people that are a little bit different. So they're able to basically create a contrast, right? So like, let's say that I am naughty, but maybe in the context of things, I'm just an average kid. And let's say my brother hypothetically is naughty.

Much much more angelic than the average kid then I become the naughty kid and then there's that story that we can tell so in comparison Yeah, so there's always a reference point. I was naughty but not Sort of like I don't think criminally naughty if you like like yeah, yeah, I know this is a huge difference talking out Yeah, so when when a parent says their child is naughty. I mean I

I grew up, I knew some kids that were, like, naughty wouldn't even be the right word. Like, they were, like, really bad, right? That's a whole, like, different thing that maybe, I doubt your mom was even talking about. So what kind of things did you do as a kid that would you classify would be representative of you being naughty? So I can remember a couple of incidents, okay? So in third grade...

we were in art class and we were, you know, we had these little pieces of chalk. You remember that? Like in art class, you go to art class and a friend and myself, we decided that we wanted to terrorize all the little girls by taking the black chalk and completely coloring our hands with the black chalk and then going and like being monsters. So, you know, like, I mean, so like, like adorably naughty, like, like, like funny, but like very annoyingly naughty. Um,

And that same year, I got also in trouble for going, taking my best friend's homework and writing fuck you on it. Oh, wow. What? You know, so I think at that age, it's, you know, it was considered, you know, a bit sort of outrageous. But, you know, that kind of stuff, right? Because I grew up with kids that way. I grew up with kids that were like literally, like seriously naughty, like criminally naughty. Right. So there was like a lot of drug abuse.

A lot of... What kind of drugs? Alcohol abuse. Huh? Marijuana? Yeah, yeah. So my first kind of encounter with drugs as a kid... Well, it depends what you consider drugs. So obviously we drank before I smoked marijuana. How old were you when you smoked marijuana? First time. First time? It was middle school? Middle school? Yeah, middle school. You started early. Yeah. Jesus. Because that was...

That was the crowd, you know what I mean? Middle school was like, what, 13? Around 13? I forget how old I was. Yeah. I'm really bad at associating ages with, you know, like grades. It was like 12, 13. But it was, I know it was in middle school. It was like freshman year, it was like 14. 14 to 15 if you're older, but 14. Yeah, so it was middle school. And that's when I first smoked pot. And I remember I was at my house outside. My friend had brought it over.

And the first time I smoked, I didn't get stoned. Like I wasn't stoned. And I remember him telling me like, that's like very normal to not be stoned the first time you smoke. Cause like he said, like there's like at the time we were kids, right? He said, there's like this membrane like around your brain or something like that, that you need to like destroy, destroy basically, right? In order to feel stoned. Right. I don't know if there's any truth in that. I doubt it. But, um, so the first time I didn't get stoned, so I was just like, whatever. Um,

And then from there on, it just became a thing. And we were smoking pot all the time. The first cigarette I ever had, I had my first cigarette before I smoked my first joint. And the first cigarette I ever had was this uncle of mine, right? And then he had stayed over at our house, and he was a big chain smoker. So in the daytime, he would leave for work, but he had his suitcase in our guest room.

And he had a whole carton of cigarettes that he bought at Duty Free. And I went down one time and I stole it because he had a whole carton, right? And I didn't, I thought like one extra carton because the box was already open. And so I thought one less carton, he's not going to notice. Right. So I stole a carton, a pack from him. Middle school? Yeah, this was around the same time. But before I had the joint. And I stole a pack from him and I climbed up on my roof and

And I had my first cigarette. Wow. Yeah. Interesting. Actually, I find this fascinating. I was by myself. Like, no friends, no nothing. It was just out of, like, pure curiosity by myself wanting to smoke a cigarette. And I had my first cigarette. And, of course, you know, it didn't go down well. Oh.

But for some reason, I enjoyed the smell. I enjoyed the smell of the cigarette before it was lit. So like a fresh cigarette before you light it, you smell it. I still do to this day. So I remember really enjoying that tobacco smell. No, my parents never smoked. My parents were always very against smoking. Weird. Yeah. And then from there. And then drinking quickly ensued.

And so I started really early. But I think there's a lot of benefit to that. Like in hindsight, I think there's a lot of benefit to starting early, right? I have to share it with you. Did I ever share with you my story of my first time smoking weed? I think it's hilarious. I mean, it was one of those things that looking back, it's pretty funny. So the first time I smoked weed was when I was 15.

Late bloomer. Yeah, I was about 15. I was sophomore year. And then I was with a bunch of friends who later on became my bandmates. Gaston? Yeah, later on. And so basically we're all hanging out in my friend Fred's apartment. I mean, it was like a half day.

And, you know, I'm a half days. So we're like chilling in the backyard and they broke out, broke out weed. And I didn't I never smoked cigarettes or weed. I had nothing. Right. And they're like, let's smoke. And then I remember being like, fuck it. I mean, I'm there. Why not? Right. And then at that time, I didn't play music. I was I was just I was I was I was a jock. Right. So I played baseball. I was basketball. Oh, yeah. Martial arts. I was clean cut.

And so they're the ones that, like, they corrupted me. So anyway, so I had weed and we were smoking. And then we smoked all day. So it was, like, smoking and rest and then smoking and rest, right? So I remember, I don't remember how long it was, but finally I got fucked up. I got so fucked up to the point where we're all, like, around a circle in the living room. And there was a guitar gang that passed around playing, you know, playing and singing along, playing covers. And also, for some reason, I thought it was a brilliant idea for me to play guitar.

And I don't play any instrument. I never picked it up in my life. Oh, so this was before you learned how to play guitar? Before I learned how to play guitar. So I was like, let me get that guitar. And so they're like, all right. So they gave it to me. And then I started playing. And then literally, I didn't know what I was doing. I just started playing. And I just looked around. And all of a sudden, I see faces go like this. Like this, right? And I'm like, what's going on? And they're like, and they start singing. And I'm like, what am I playing? Yeah.

I was playing Pretty Penny by Stone Temple Pilots. First time you ever picked up a guitar? Yeah. What, so you're like a prodigy? No! I don't know if we're... I think I was playing two notes like... Like back and forth or some shit. That song was something like that. For some reason, everyone was so high that they thought it was Pretty Penny. And then they're like, "Is that Pretty Penny?" And I'm like, "Is it Pretty Penny?"

And then the next thing you know, I'm like, I guess I played pretty many. Obviously, it was not. I don't think it was anything close to it, but everyone was just so high, so fucked up. And then they're like, I didn't know you played guitar. I'm like, I don't know if I, I never knew I did either. And after that day, the next day I went home and I had a guitar in my basement from my uncle. I dug it out and I said to my mom, I'm going to learn how to play this. Yeah. And that's what made me learn music. So that's like your origin story. That's my origin story. That's what made me learn music.

Because I got fucking high, I picked up a guitar, and played some notes. And the next thing you know, that became, like, my whole identity. Yeah. Crazy, right? So that whole promising, he could have been Jeremy Lin, and it got derailed. It was Ichiro before, and then... Dude, I was really into baseball and martial arts. Well, see, look, well, that's the thing. And...

It's interesting when it comes to drugs and alcohol, right? And obviously, it's very easy to go too far with it. And it becomes a very terrible thing, of course. But I think there is an importance in terms of getting exposed to these type of things earlier in life, as opposed to later, right? Because I've seen a lot of kids, especially in this was like when I went to college, right?

And when you get to college, you're kind of tasting, for most kids, you're tasting an amount of freedom that you haven't had before. Right? You're away from your parents. You know, you're kind of like, you know, you're in college and you're just kind of off on your own and meeting all these people.

So, a lot of kids when they grow up too sheltered and all of a sudden, abruptly, they're in college and they have all this freedom now and they have to make a lot of decisions for themselves and they're surrounded by a lot of different temptations and peer pressure and, you know, things of that nature.

Allow it's really easy to get too carried away with it because you don't know how to handle it You don't you haven't acquired those skills, right? Like you don't know what your tolerance with alcohol is yet, right? You don't know that you don't know you don't know what how what being stoned feels like so you can trip out really easily right you don't know what the difference between just a joint of a pot and

versus like taking acid, something really intense like that, right? You just think drugs are drugs and you don't kind of differentiate the two. So to you, like maybe like dropping acid would be the same as trying a first joint at the same time, which is ridiculous to think that, right? So you get into a lot of trouble and that's where kids get like alcohol poisoning. They need their stomach pumped or even worse, right? Or they trip out on some sort of psychedelic and they get into all kinds of trouble or even hurt themselves or others, right?

So it becomes this kind of sheltered life where you're exposed to these things for the first time when you're kind of older and the consequences are a little more dire. So I feel it's important to actually get exposed to these things kind of earlier and get more of a reference for it. Or you can be young today and just Google it and YouTube it.

No, but see, there's a difference between reading about it and experiencing it for yourself. Because no matter how much you read about it, you're never really going to know what that experience is. Sure, sure, sure. But I mean, they still have a leg up. I mean, compared to back then. I mean, you ask a stoner kid that's a little older that has done it, and they'll be like, yeah, it's awesome. You know, as opposed to, I'm sure you can YouTube...

A search on YouTube for like, okay, what's it like to get high? And then there's going to be like hundreds of videos. Well, now we're talking about pot. Now pot's getting legalized in America. But going back to it, it made me think of something. So would you smoke pot and drink with your kids? Like at what age would your kids, you know, given that theory, would you... Something that my parents would never...

I was the sheltered one. So what would you do differently? I think it depends on the child, right? The character of the child. And only the parent can really know that. But I'm not saying I would actively provide it for my kids. I won't. But...

I know that when they're not around me, and especially when they get into like more adolescence and in their teens, they're going to be hanging out with their friends. They're going to be going out. They're going to be going out to parties and whatever, you know, everything that I did as a kid. I know that's not, that's going to happen. And I'm not going to prevent that, nor would I want to prevent those things. So I'm not going to be kind of like a crazy controlling parent where I'm

I'm just going to not let them do anything or go out or say, like, you know, you got to be home like really early or, you know, I'm not going to be terribly controlling. I am going to be controlling to a degree where if I do feel there, they'll be in trouble or there's going to be harm. You know, I'm going to step in, of course. But I'm also going to make it a conscious decision and effort to try to let them live

their lives and trust them as much as I possibly can, given that if they prove that they can be trusted, right? Obviously, if they get into a bunch of trouble and they prove that they can't be trusted with their own decision making, that's a different story. So again, it comes back to the kid, you know, the individual, right?

And you have to make a judgment call. And it's tough. I can't imagine as a parent, it'd be easy to kind of just like be like, okay, well, you know, let your kid do whatever, you know. Obviously, you know, that's not what I'm saying. And I know it's going to be tough. What would be the... Just try. What would be like the deal breaker, right? Like where you would draw like a hard line? Because like, as you were talking through that, I suddenly had this, you know, kind of, you know, in my mind, I imagined, well...

What if the kid doesn't come home by 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. or 5 a.m.? You know? And then, like, you would freak out. You would freak out, and then you would definitely discipline your kid, right? What lines would you draw, though? For example, if I gave my kid a curfew and said, you have to be home before midnight, for example, right?

And instead of that, he ended up or she ended up coming home like it was like 2:30 in the morning. She came home. I would be angry. I would be worried and I would discipline and punish her or him. But in my heart of hearts, like this is how I would treat the child just so that they know that there's consequences for their actions, right?

But in my heart of hearts, if they didn't come home in any sort of trouble or harm or I didn't believe that they were in any harm or in harm's way during that time, you know, in my heart of hearts, I wouldn't make it a big deal internally, right? I would pretend it's a big deal, but I wouldn't really, you know, I wouldn't go to sleep thinking it's a huge deal unless I felt that they were in some sort of trouble or they were in danger in any way, right? Mm-hmm.

Because I know that was me. And that was me. And if my kid has any resemblance of me and can make the same kind of judgments or better than I did, then I would trust that.

You know, I would trust that. Yeah. All right. Parenting 101 from Justin Yang. Who's not a parent? But I'm just diving in from my own experience as a child and growing up because I've seen, I've had comparison and I've seen a lot of kids because growing up in a Chinese community, right? Well, not in a Chinese community, but like growing up, I went into like, my parents had, you know, their Chinese friends and I went to Chinese school every weekend, right? Yeah.

And, you know, so you meet a bunch of other, you know, Chinese and Asian kids growing up in an Asian and Chinese household. And typically Chinese parents are very, you know, controlling, very strict, very, very authoritarian parents.

And my parents were very liberal. So they were like the opposites. And all the other Chinese parents knew that about my parents and almost shamed them and looked down on them. Right. So like my parents were kind of the outcast of like that Chinese school community almost because my mom was like more fashionable. My dad was more like liberal. Right. And all the other ones like were very like nerdy and very controlling and very like, you know, like so, um,

So I kind of saw how the kids of those parents kind of grew up, right? And they grew up under an intense amount of pressure to do well in school. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but they grew up in a very sheltered life. And they only knew what I knew much later in life, right? And I feel like I've turned out

pretty well in terms of an overall person, you know, in terms of my character. And I know that the things that I went through in terms of exposure in general have helped. I just want to ask you a question here. So this is going back to... You're turning red again. Yeah, because I drank. He's not that red yet. Get off the red. Get off the red. It's like the first time you've drank. Maybe if you give him your shirt...

It's like the first time you drank. So... Like, why did you wear a white shirt, dude? It is true. I turned really red. Whatever. So anyway, moving on. Going back to what you said about the whole experience earlier than later, right? And maybe, you know, earlier you kind of get yourself ready for things in life. One thing I've noticed being in China. I moved to China when I was like, what, mid-20s, right? Yeah, mid-20s. And...

When I came here, obviously, at that time, in the mid to late 2000s, Shanghai was quite interesting. Right? It was a lot of fun, a lot of drinking, a lot of partying. You find like-minded people that go out all the time. And it's just... It was what we like to say, shit show. Right? All the time. Yeah. But the thing is that I already did that. Like, when I was in college and right after college. Yeah. As a musician, I was...

an alcoholic to say the least and partying all the time you know being promiscuous and all that stuff so I went through that right and then you don't have to brag I'm not trying to brag he's like you're on camera yeah I shouldn't I shouldn't but anyway so it was like I went through all that already and

I realized that there were people around me that had never gone through that. And it almost seems like going, like diving into the deep end. Like they were the ones that dived in like really deep. Those that had not gone through it before. Yeah.

So, I don't know. What do you think about that? Do you think it's because of the sudden exposure? I think so. I think you're exactly right. I think that's a really good analogy. It's like for us, because we started early, we got to experiment with it more incrementally because it's like, you know, dipping our toes in the water and then going in the shallow end and then, you know, walking into the deep end. Right. Because we can get start earlier. And when you're young, you know, you don't you know, you're not going to have the same kind of access to.

to abundance and the same kind of danger that you would when you get older. And the consequences aren't exactly the same. So when you get older, it's like, yeah, plunging into that deep end. 'Cause all of a sudden you're mixing in with people who have done it for a whole lifetime already, right, when you're older. Friends who are much more experienced with drinking or smoking or taking whatever kind of drugs.

And so they're already used to it. And then now as an older person, you're getting exposed to it for the first time and you're trying to catch up to them, right? To their level.

And so that's like diving in headfirst and just taking a crash course. Boom. Right. Or as a kid amongst your other friends, you're all experiencing it for the first time together. You know what I mean? You're all experiencing it and experimenting early. So no one's like really diving in. Everyone's kind of like, you know, like, you know, you're tasting it, you're dipping your toe in the water and then incrementally it grows. Right. So.

clearly there's a bad side to it, right? So, you know, the argument can be made that if you get early and then, you know, you get hooked on it early, then it becomes this whole lifetime of abuse and of the substance or whatever, right? So again, it all goes back to the individual. There is no right or wrong with this. I'm just saying for me, I am thankful that I got exposed to these things really early because now it doesn't,

Mean too much to me anymore. You know, I mean like drinking or smoking or that's not something that is Something I have an itch for like who I've never experienced that wonder what that's like I don't have a pen for a second what you're saying right now We just said right there we can turn to an argument because the idea of we're jumping around a little bit here But like so the idea of experience, right? crossed with happiness

right is it is happiness more with the more you experience you become more happy because you're experiencing you're learning you're you're seeing you're you know all that stuff or is explore or what if you limit yourself from the experience what if you you don't experience you come from a much more narrow-minded life and therefore your expectations are lower you're you know you're

That happiness factor, the hit that happiness factor. It's more easily to be surprised or excited about. Yeah. I mean, we've had this conversation in the past where it's like,

As a joke, I would say I wish I never experienced half the shit I did in my life because maybe I would be a lot more simple. And with that simplicity, I can reach that happiness a lot easier as opposed to now because I've experienced a lot. I think a lot. And I'm analyzing a lot. And I'm comparing. And that just brings stress. And that brings an easier opportunity for me to be unhappy.

Right. And then you were adamant. You came back and you're like, no, I would never give up my experiences. I'm glad I went through experiences. Remember that? Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, what about you? What do you think?

I don't think that happiness is something that I'm looking for or striving for. What does that mean? Yeah, what does that mean? For me, it's not about happiness because happiness is not something you can control. What is it about that? Because you can get sick. I mean, you know, everybody ultimately... But you can be happy while sick. I mean, right. But everyone ultimately, like, you know, dies.

Damn! It's like everybody just dies. What the fuck? That's so bleak. We were talking about happiness. He's like, everyone just dies. So we're getting really deep now. Like, we're getting, like, what is the meaning of life, right? Basically, like, so what do you mean by happiness?

like the point is not happiness and that's not something you're striving for. Like then what are you striving for? I'm striving for meaning. I'm striving for fulfillment because happiness, doesn't that bring happiness? But that's my happiness. Isn't my goal because I don't think I can control happiness. Happiness is a byproduct of like when you do things that you really believe in. So for me,

I don't know if I can, you know, like you could get sick or something could happen or you could have other people, you know, and, and, you know, at work or whatever it is that are working against you. There's all kinds of things. Hopefully I can be happy. I'm hoping I can be happy. I like being happy. I enjoy being happy, but that's not what motivates me every day.

You know, like if I go to the gym or I'm working hard at work, like all these things, they bring fulfillment. And there's a happiness byproduct to it. But my goal isn't to be happy. Well, I would... So let me ask you this. Because if I wanted to be happy, then I would just like drink and party. You know, there's a lot of things you could do. No, no, no. See, that could be a misconception, right? Because...

I'll ask you like then why why are you chasing meaning? Why are you chasing fulfillment isn't because those things bring happiness if they didn't bring happiness the fulfillment? Was not a happy did not bring you a happy feeling then would you still be chasing it? Yeah, what is fulfillment then? Yeah, like what does that mean isn't the ultimate thing? Happiness because by chasing meaning by by being fulfilled that ultimately brings happiness. That's the endgame and

Right. Yeah. I differentiate it a little bit. I don't think they're totally different, but I think that, you know, if you're in the flow of doing something and really getting enjoyment, you're learning. There's a happiness piece of it, but the goal isn't. It's much bigger than happiness. Like happiness is maybe the feeling of, you know, having a great meal or whatever it is. It's that immediate emotional effect. Yeah.

I guess what I'm looking for is more than that emotional effect of happiness. I'm looking for something much more broad, which is meaning. And meaning is basically you're doing something and you're so into it that you can kind of forget about all the other things and problems that may be happening in your life. So like happiness sort of...

is a byproduct of all of that, but it's not the thing that I'm searching for. In other words, I don't think I could ever reach happiness if I wasn't searching for meaning and fulfillment. It sounds like you're saying that happiness is like a reaction, and it's almost like contentment is an overall description of a frame of... a term of...

in your life. I think contentment and contentment and happiness are all just byproducts. Like that's not what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for the, you know, kind of like here is the destination and I want to be happy. It's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for like, how can I help other people? How can I learn myself? How can I stay open minded? Like these things are what motivate me. I don't know. Maybe I'm different, but it's not necessarily like happiness. I do feel like if I'm unhappy, it's,

it's counterproductive. So like I wake up in the morning and I feel stressed and I gotta do this and I gotta do that. So, you know, I work on ways of helping myself overcome unhappiness, but the goal isn't happiness. That's not what really motivates me to wanna like go suffer, like go and do a hundred pushups, go and run.

I mean, there's some happiness element afterwards, but a lot of it is just you got to go through the pain and suffering because there's something bigger that you want. So to me, it's I don't I really don't think about happiness. I get it. Well, you know how sometimes they had some people would ask, like, are you happy?

Right? And then you have to think, okay, well, am I happy? It depends on when you ask, right? So if I were to ask you right now... What did you get that cup for, by the way? It's to pour out my ice. So that we can do the neat. So we can get that. So if I were to ask you right now, are you happy, what would you say? I'm pretty happy, yeah. Because I also think happiness is something that's something you pursue. Happiness is something that you...

have to have the right perspective. Like, so I'm healthy. I have great friends. You know, we're doing our podcast. My parents in town, I can interpret that all of that positively. I can interpret that in a very positive way. Or I can say, you know what? Like, you know, my parents in town, they're stressing me out. Like my friends, you know, they're a bunch of,

you know, idiot. It's like whatever, right? And it's, I mean, it's the lens that you put on it. Well, that's just choosing to be positive over being negative. Right. But that determined like, but that in itself will make you happier and unhappy. So you see unhappy people all the time. They have all the money in the world, but they're unhappy. And that's a choice that they make. So for me, there's something more than just that binary choice of happy, unhappy. It's, am I enjoying, am I finding fulfillment? Am I doing something that's truly meaningful? Yeah.

So I think, you know, when you look at like really great things that have happened, I don't know if people were searching for happiness when they were doing that or if they were doing something, you know, maybe searching for something a little bit more. I think probably, you know, the people who achieve greatness and the, you know, whether it's in the arts or in any other field,

or in sports or anything like that, the greatest have always enjoyed the process for itself, right? Like you said, they weren't thinking of like, oh, I'm suffering all this just so I can be...

number one or win this championship or they did it for the love of the game at first right and that's what kind of pushed them through and eventually they had more loftier goals like winning championships or standards or being the best yeah they you mentioned you mentioned like standards i don't think it was a really interesting comment because you know maybe like i'm pro like i've been programmed from all those years of being around someone that had my mom with this very strong personality i'm kind of programmed to have standards so that definitely drives me

It drives me at work. I work for a company that has high standards. We're doing this podcast. I want this to be great. So I definitely do have standards, and that's what drives me. Does it make me happy? Hopefully it does. Hopefully it doesn't make me miserable. And that's where you have to kind of step back and say... Well, if it made you miserable, you'd stop doing it. Right. Or you have to reframe it. You have to reframe it. But...

There is a element of suffering to anything that's worth doing because you're always, you have to push yourself beyond your limits. We talk about comfort zones and fear zones and stuff like that. So it can't all be about pursuing happiness because pursuing happiness

pursuing happiness is actually not going to be motivating you to do something that's hard, doing something that's never been done before and doing something that's going to help others. Well, to achieve anything great, you have to love the process. And you have to be willing to suffer. You have to be willing to enjoy it. But that's what I'm saying. If you love the process and you love what you do, you'll be willing to suffer for it. Because if you didn't like what you were doing and you were just doing it for as it means to the end,

then you wouldn't be able to kind of persevere through the suffering. That's right. Well, I just want to interject. I think it's also everyone is defining what happiness is or even that journey towards happiness. So going back to what I was just saying about experience and on one end, you have somebody that may have not experienced as much in life and they can maybe answer genuinely, I am happy.

um, comparatively to somebody else who has experienced many things in life. And they may also, they may also be able to say they are happy, but in my experience, more often than not, they're not. Um, so what I'm trying to say is that it's just all on each owns definition of what is happiness. So for example, for you, maybe your definition is not exactly about pinpointing what that happiness is, but it's more about, um, creating, um,

you know, fulfillment through your processes, right? And that as a byproduct, happiness comes out. Now, maybe somebody else is literally, my happiness is not leaving my bed and watching TV shows all day because that's all I care about. But I would argue that that person's not happy. I don't think, like, I mean, who do you know? I don't know. I've met some people that are like simpletons. Let me ask you of all the people that we know.

That are like... Of all the people that we know, I'm not talking about like pathological outliers. Of all the people that we know, how many people lie in their bed all day and watch TV and are actually happy? That's like, that's got to be a very small percentage of the population. That doesn't... Like, that in itself...

sort of conflicts with the concept of happiness. Why? Because human beings are all about progress. Human beings are all about like, we need to survive. We need to do things. If everything is handed to you and you're just in bed, you're not going to be happy. That's not how we're biologically programmed. But anyways, I just thought of a quote to your point, Justin, and from Frederick Nietzsche. And I think it's the most eloquent way you could put some of the thoughts that we were talking about. He who has a why...

can bear anyhow yeah yeah yeah yeah but i don't know i don't know but don't you think but you've never met anybody in china i'm just being specific because we live in china well i've had my mind blown having conversations with certain people and you know when asking like why don't you have drive why don't you have this or that they're like i don't need it i don't want it i'm fine

And it just blows my mind. It blows my mind. How red I am. I knew he was going to say that. But I think that's just a very surface thing. Like, I've met girls who have said that here. Yeah. But I think they say that just because...

You know, they're working every day and they want to... Everyone is like, oh... Everyone in this world always says, like, oh, you know, I would love a vacation, right? I would love a break right now. I would love to just get away for a few days and just, you know, just do nothing and live up in the woods or go to Maui or whatever it is, right? But if you were to give that to them every single day...

then they would feel like it's a prison, right? They will feel trapped in it, right? So it's not necessarily that, it's just different from what I think they're already doing, that they feel, you know, the grass is always greener, right? So it's just like, they feel like, oh, that's what they want now. And they want to just be able to have no care in the world and just sit in their room and just lay in their bed and watch TV.

And, you know, at that moment, that feels like, oh, that would be the greatest pleasure. Right? But that's very fleeting. Right? That's a very fleeting thing. That's just in the moment. It's very short-sighted. It's very in the moment. But I want to take the conversation back to, like, kind of more grounded because we're getting very philosophical right now. Right? But I want to go back to, like, where we're grounded of, like, preparing. Like, if we're talking about kids, it's, like, preparing them for happiness, I think. Right? So...

Going back to your question of like, you know, is exposure, is experience, is more experience happiness or is ignorance bliss, for example, right? And I think it depends, right? I mean, I know that's a very cop-out answer, but it really does depend. So if we go back to like, let's say drugs, for example, well, that's something that can very realistically harm you.

if not controlled, right? So I think in that sense, actually experience and exposure is key to being safe with that and then ultimately being happy, right? Because if you're not grounded enough and you don't have enough experience with it, it can get away from you very quickly, especially the harder drugs. And then all of a sudden that can turn into a deep spiraling addiction.

Which is sometimes near impossible to get out of. So in that sense, what is for the ultimate good? You know what I mean? Like is exposure and experience with it better? Unless you're going to argue that I will never experience that throughout my entire life. I will never touch any drugs. I will never experiment with any drugs for my entire life. Then that's fine. No regrets. Yeah. But growing up in the West, especially in the States, that's not that realistic. You know what I mean? Why is it not realistic? I know people that never touched it.

For example, be specific with those. Okay, so they may have had a character to make that decision to not touch it, which is fine. So it depends on the character and the individual. But for a lot of kids growing up, especially in the states where we grew up, it's almost inevitable that it's going to cross your path one day or another. And what is that decision you're going to make? How are you going to handle it?

And I think if you're equipped with the kind of knowledge of what it is and what it's about and how you're going to deal with it early on, you're much more equipped to handle it later on in life when the consequences are more dire. You know what I'm saying? I agree. So I come from what you guys just talked about.

the way you framed it was, you know, your background, your parents a little bit more liberal, et cetera, et cetera. And then, you know, like there was another, the kind of like the more mainstream group of parents, the Taiwanese American parents or whatever. And they kind of look down on your parents. So the ones that,

That mainstream group is like my mom was like the ringleader of that group. Exactly. She epitomizes that group. Yeah, she epitomizes it. And so I come from... And we're all sitting in the same room, right? By this point in our lives, we probably all had the same amount of alcohol. I probably caught up the last couple... There's a period of time. So it's interesting. I think that exposure and experience are really, really important. It's just finding the right balance because...

If the stakes are high at a certain point, they get too high. You're right. Like then, you know, you're making decisions that have a much bigger impact than if you had made them like a lot earlier on. So I think it's just finding sort of the right balance. So I don't know what approach, what specific approach, like I would take in terms of like what exposure, like, okay, at 14, you're going to smoke pot at 16. I'm going to let you get drunk, you know, like, but I do know that I would, if you look at it as a spectrum, like,

and my parents were here, then I would definitely shift, right? I would shift closer towards sort of like the approach that your parents take. Would I shift all the way to where they exactly were? I don't know. But it would be somewhere in between because you want, essentially you want transparency with your kids. You want to let them know what the world is all about because eventually,

They're going to find out eventually. Yeah, they're going to find out. And if they're not with you, they're in a much less safe place than if they were with you.

And at the same time, you don't want to expose them to stuff too early. I mean, you're not going to give them a shot of heroin. No, of course not. There's certain kind of boundaries and stuff. But I would say you let them experience the things that you know that they generally would experience. And then the things that are truly life-threatening, you kind of set a boundary and say, this is actually life-threatening. You have to teach them the difference between the two. You know what I mean? So one of the reasons why I asked the question of...

you know, which is more important to you experiencing not experiencing is because I went through one time before moving to China, I had a friend, uh, old high school friend and he moved to the South small town and I went to New York city. Right. And, and I came from the suburbs. So he was like one of my best friends. And after many years, I was on Facebook actually. He was, he wrote me, he was like, wow, like,

you know, you're doing all this crazy stuff. And it was back then I was at MTV and like flying around. He's like, wow, all this crazy city boy, you know, you know, it was like, you know, doing rock and roll, like shows where all that stuff. And we had, we had a phone call and then we're talking and he's, and he's like,

you know, he, he, at that time he was doing, he was a delivery guy, right? He had two kids already and we were like in our mid twenties, right? Two kids already, you know, his delivery guy. And he's like, he's like, I was like, are you happy? You know, how, how's everything over there? I mean, we grew up in Jersey and you know, he's like, yo, um, um,

It's great. I mean, every weekend I'm having barbecue with my friends and, you know, I'm paying the bills. I'm not behind on the bills. You know, we're having good food. I got a great wife, two great kids, beautiful kids. You know, the weather is great. You know, it's great. You know, and he's like, I don't think I can do what you do. You know, I don't want to be a city boy. You know, it's like, that's too much. Like, I don't care for parties. I don't care for going out and seeing some stuff. You know, I wouldn't survive. That's not my thing. Right.

right yeah and that's what put into perspective i'm like damn okay that's a totally different perspective that boy's happy and here i am city boy and he's thinking like i'm living the life in a certain way but i'm like miserable right and i'm like depressed and i'm like what is going on i want more it's never enough you know and then all of a sudden i'm like i wish i was him like i literally thought to myself i'm like i wish i was him because i want to be a lot more content with my

I want to be happy. And if I didn't have all these like expectations and, you know, and standards that I want to achieve, maybe I could be a bit happier. Yeah. I think, you know, there's, there's a thing because I have friends like that too. And they live in the suburbs. Right. And when you kind of live in,

out there, you kind of, all of a sudden you're not bombarded with as much stimulus as you are in the big city, let's say, traveling the world. And you kind of see things for what they are. So you end up, you know, you appreciate the barbecues you have, you appreciate your family, you appreciate your friends, and the simple life, quote unquote simple life that you live. And you're content with it because you're happy, you might be financially secure,

And you got your family, you got your routine going on, and it's a comfortable life. And human beings like routine. Yeah. Right? And you're comfortable, right? And you find that that's your content. Whereas with us, we feel like...

We might look at that before and be like, "Oh, well, I would never live in the suburbs. That's so boring." You think of soccer moms having a minivan with kids and just being stuck in a routine. You're like, "Ugh, I can't do that." Yeah, so you want to get out into the "world" and be part of the big city and the lights and everything. But what ends up happening is, like you said, it becomes never enough.

Because there's always something more and there's always something better and there's always something, someone else doing better and achieving more. And you're caught in this rat race where you're just like, you want to, it's never enough. And then you get greedy and then you get more and more impossibly ambitious where you're just never satisfied and you end up being miserable because you're just constantly comparing yourself.

to what if and what could be instead of what is and just appreciating it. It's the same thing where people say it's like, you know, whatever your financial

The situation is you're always wanting more money or whatever, right? You're like, oh, if I had a million bucks in my bank right now, I'd be good. I'm good. But then you get that million bucks in your bank. You're like, if I had 10 million bucks in my bank, I'd be good. And you get to the 10 million. You're like, no, if I had 100 million, dude, I'd be good. It's never enough. See, for me, it's like I have 100 million, right? But like I'm chasing that billion now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's never enough. Yeah.

I'm joking, obviously. But, you know, it's like, I totally get what you mean. And it's... But that's human nature. That's the human condition, right? But how do you become aware? Because I feel like having this conversation, bringing awareness to it, to ground yourself is important. Don't you think? Yeah. It's the same thing with like, you know, I mean, in our circle of friends, sometimes I tend to come out as the...

what do you call it get off the high horse you said that to me last night right I tend to talk from my high horse because only because I'm trying to ground myself because I know I could be like that person you know

Does that make sense? Yeah. I think... You'd be falling off Mount Everest to grind yourself, dog. I'm just kidding. But something that I'm only starting to appreciate now that I'm older, and I didn't appreciate when I was younger, is really the value and importance of actually talking about things. Before, I was like, I don't need that. I don't need to talk about things. What am I, a girl? I'm not going to talk. I don't need to talk about my feelings anymore.

but i think but i think macho man over here yeah how's randy savage boy how's randy savage man no but and now that i'm getting older i i find the importance of having these conversations

Even if it's things you think you already know about, there's a difference in talking about it out loud because you kind of discover different feelings that you had and different insights by just speaking about it with different people and having other people maybe present different views. Which is why I think, you know, is one of the main reasons why, like, you know, we even did this podcast in the first place or started this podcast. Yeah.

And it's being able to talk out a bunch of things that we're feeling instead of just having it locked away in our own minds. We can actually talk about it out loud and have a discussion about it. And it brings it puts it it puts a different spin on things a lot of times. And you kind of walk away from that conversation thinking a little bit differently about what it was and what it is and what it could be.

And you start questioning things a little more for the good. And I think that's important in any effort to try to improve yourself. You know, whatever the topic may be. So it's definitely helped. I agree. So coming back again, where do you stand? On what, though? Experience. For you. I think part of the human condition is to suffer. I think that's unavoidable. But so I wouldn't...

I wouldn't cancel out... I think if you didn't experience things, you would still suffer regardless because it's part of the human condition. But would you even know what that suffer is if you'd never experienced it to begin with? Maybe not for that particular thing, but you would suffer in other ways. Well, I always use this analogy. It's like if you've never watched TV, would you ever miss TV? No. You wouldn't, but does that mean you shouldn't do anything? I think we're making an assumption that may not be true. We're making an assumption that...

that, you know, people who know less or people who haven't been exposed to things are necessarily happy. And so I think we, like, we can go back and look at all the studies. Like, are people in the cities, like, less happy or this and that? You know, I mean, I don't, I think we're making a lot of assumptions. I think that, like, you have to be a little bit data-driven when you make these types of statements, right? And so you can go to any city, like, any town, any part of the world, and I don't know of, like, any specific place

you know, specifically that is, you know, significantly happier. You know, sometimes you read about that kind of stuff, but I think generally it's like wherever you go, whatever city, rural, et cetera, you have a wide range of different people, different dispositions. So unless we go and talk to these people, look at the data, et cetera, I don't know. I think it's the grass is greener syndrome. I think whatever your situation is, that's your situation.

Like, you know these things. You are aware of something called a TV. You know what a guitar is.

right? All of these things are going to bring you angst. A person who is not aware of those things, there's other things in their life that are bringing them angst. So I think it's more about your individual situation and then how you cope with that and how you express gratitude. And so what you were saying about like being able to talk through things, et cetera, I think that's because getting different perspectives and then hearing yourself talk, hearing others talk will make you think a little bit differently, you know, but I don't think it's necessarily like the,

The guy, the rural guy, okay, we want to be that guy. No, that ship's already sailed. It's not happening, right? And whether they're happy or not,

Only that person could really tell. Only they know. And only if we found a million of them could we actually give you a sense of what their general happiness is. But, you know, like people who, let's say, have some kind of accident and then become paraplegic. Yeah, in the first, you know, three months, the studies show that, of course, they're less happy. But then after a year or two, they normalize. Yeah.

So I think the whole ignorance is bliss argument is... Bullshit. Well, it's not bullshit. There's truth to it, but it's short-sighted. So yes, let's say, for example, on a very surface and petty level, if you don't know what a TV is, never experienced TV, you're not going to miss it, right? But that's very short-sighted. That's in the moment. But if you think about, if you're laying on your deathbed,

About to die. And you're looking back on your life. Would you be more happy knowing that you've had all these experiences, both good and bad, or that you've experienced, you're about to die and you've experienced nothing at all? I mean, like, what would make you happy? So I think it also depends on the time period. So, for example, in modern day, you're exposed to everything.

Because of exposure internet and all that stuff so you know exactly what's going on right so of course you can't you have the missy on syndrome you can you can be like oh I want to visit that place or whatever right but maybe back in the day right when there is no Technology and you're you you are still missing on stuff. Why why would you you don't know about it? Why would you miss out because they're because your life is not void and

So like, like you're trying to, you're trying to make a hypothesis based on a situation that is being experienced by someone else with their perspective.

That person is like, oh, there's a party in the town square and I'm not going to make it. I mean, you know, like certainly I think we're exposed to more stuff and we can look at the experiments and the research around it. But to basically make a judgment for the person like somewhere else that like we've never experienced their life, like we can't do that because we've never been there. We're taking our perspective and then...

But I'm just using the whole deathbed analogy here. So, for example, if some tribe in some village in a country where they don't have any access to electricity... I'm just saying, I'm just saying, right? That person in their deathbed, are they going to be like, God damn, I wish I played World of Warcraft? No, but they wouldn't have known it. They don't know about it. But in their frame of reference...

You're, again, applying a frame of reference that doesn't exist for them. Exactly. In their frame of reference, there are things that you don't even know about. You've never even thought about that they want to do that they've never done. You're assuming that you're a superset of their experience when it's actually completely separate. Because, look...

By living, you're going to experience things. It's only a matter of how much you experience, right? To what degree do you experience things? But you can't live with absolutely no experience. No one can live like that. You know what I mean? Even a person who's blind, deaf, and dumb is going to have some...

Some semblance of an experience. They're going to have experiences that you've never had. Exactly. So you cannot, there's no way you can take experience out of the equation, right? So the only really relevant factor in terms of how you're associating or correlating experience with happiness is are the experiences one does have

You cannot include the experiences one doesn't have because that can't even factor in anymore. So I think that's what you're trying to say. You're trying to say is if you don't have the experience, it can't factor in. Therefore, it cannot make you unhappy. Hypothetically, I'm saying. Yeah, that's basically what you're saying. But that's not a relevant argument. That's not a plausible argument because what doesn't factor in

has no zero effect on you. And that's the argument for ignorance and bliss. But you're not accounting for everything else that they are experiencing. Right? So it's impossible. Which is unique to them because if you take your frame of reference, like let's say I know of these 10 experiences.

Yeah.

So the point is you cannot avoid experience just by living. So the question becomes, how are those experiences impacting your life and impacting your happiness? Right. And obviously it depends on the experience. But the question is like, you know, is more experience important?

Bad or a good thing right is because you can't say no experience is more experience about again And obviously it comes down to the experiences themselves, but even if it is an unhappy experience That's a short-sighted kind of momentary Thing to say oh well I would be more unhappy for it because I think if you look back in general even people who went through traumatic things in our life

or terrible things in their life. I think if they look back on it, you know, a lot of them can say, you know, it made them a stronger person. They learned a lot through this traumatic thing. They came out, you know, different, but maybe they wouldn't have, but I don't think necessarily they might live with regret in terms of, oh, I'd be so much happier. I mean, I can't, you know, it's kind of, it's not great for me to say this because I haven't gone through maybe the same terrible things that a lot of other people have.

But for some people, they may say, okay, yeah, I'd be better off without it. But for a lot of people, they may be better off with it. So it really depends on the experience. It really depends on, like what you were saying earlier, the lens you put on these experiences. Actually, it's one thing I always tell people. I always say that one way I try to live my life, not necessarily I do it, but I try, is I always try to put myself in situations that I maybe have never experienced.

Whether it's trying food, going out to certain places, being a part of certain situations, I try to put myself there so I can, for good or bad, live it, right? And learn from it. And I mean, as a filmmaker, as a storyteller, I want to gain these experiences, right? So I'm a proponent of experiencing, right? And I just like to have that argument to see both sides. But I always tell people, it's like,

I would always say yes. Like, even if you know it's going to end up bad.

Do it. So you know what that bad is, right? You get heartbroken in a relationship. Good for you. Because now you know what that heartbreak feels like. And you can appreciate real love, for example. Exactly. Right? So, I mean, I'm on that same wavelength as you guys. I just think that maybe some people are just a lot more cautious, you know, or maybe overly cautious because they're so afraid to experience the bad.

Yeah, it's like, you know speaking a little more philosophically. It's like there can't be a heaven without a hell Yeah, right. You can't experience heaven without their existing a hell which is basically saying you don't know what your happiness Happiness is without true suffering. Yeah, right Neither one can exist because there's no baseline. Yeah. Yeah. Well, here's to Hopefully happiness going forward. Cheers. I think

That was a good conversation. I mean, I've, these are things I think about all the time. I want to walk away with a better understanding of kind of what drives me, what motivates me. And eventually, you know, if I were to have a family and kids, which might not be too far away, you know, I kind of want to know what kind of perspective, what kind of lens on the world I want to try to give my kids to look through.

And I think that's very important. I think that's all you can do as a parent at the end of the day. You can't be with them every second of the day and you can't dictate, nor should you, everything that they do. But what you can do is to try to give them a certain lens to look through in terms of perspective and how to see things. And then you have to, and in part, you just got to trust them to make the right decisions after you provided them the right lens to look through.

And I think as a parent, that's the best thing you can do. And the rest is what it is. Yeah. So cheers to that once again. All right. Love you guys. Cheers. Great whiskey. Ardbeg. Was that Islay? Islay? Islay. Islay. Islay. Islay. Islay. Islay. Islay. Islay. Islay.