#78. What You Came For
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- What's up everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. You can always reach us on our email, WeChat, Instagram. Details are in the description below. And if you've been enjoying this podcast, go ahead, rate and comment on the show. Today's episode is hosted by Howie, Eric, and myself. And this was the first episode we recorded since we got back from our break. And we got into some deep stuff. We reflected on our recent travels and talked about the meaning of life. Yup, the meaning of life.

And really, we question, what is the point of our daily routine? What are you here for? And how can we get closer to living life on our own terms? This was all inspired by our recent trips to the mountains and deserts, and just spending time away from the big city life of Shanghai. Anyways, hope you all enjoy. And without further ado, it's The Honest Drink. Here we go.

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It was very touching. And then you're just like, we're like motherfuckers. Like we live in our little high rises and, you know, I'm going back to like some of our, I think on a previous show, we got our delivery services. Like, you know, we're in this sheltered life and, but most people have to like historically had to just grind through shit.

Well, I think our recent trips also probably made us reflect on that a little more, right? You went into Inner Mongolia. Howie and I, we went out to Lijiang and Shangri-La. Thanks for the invitation. Well, thanks for the invitation for fucking Mongolia, man. Well, you guys were like kind of saying that, you know, I didn't invite you guys, but like I'm a hundred thousand times more devastated than you will ever be. Why? Because you guys went together.

Yeah, we went out of spite because you didn't invite us on your trip. There's three of us. So if there's one person that doesn't go, that person is like in the depths of gloom. Yeah, but you were the first to not invite. You were the first to plan a trip. You were the first to book your Mongolia trip. Our trip was last minute. It was a last minute plan trip. You guys knew I was going, right? I didn't know you were going. Yeah, we were talking to your dad about it. I was telling... Oh, really? I don't really listen to... What do you mean? Like literally, your dad's like, yeah, when you guys come back, like, I mean, it was just right on the table.

And then secretly you guys didn't profess any interest. No, no, no. Me and Howie were so hurt when you went to Mongolia without us. You didn't even notice I cried? Yeah. Okay. Well, however you felt, I felt a million times worse. A million times, maybe a billion times worse. I cried the whole trip every single day. My point being is, I'm not sure what you saw. You were probably in the vineyards and with all the...

nice stuff right well pampering yourself a little bit yeah it's gonna i'm joking i'm joking it's called it in england no but we we went out into like the country right into the mountains in the countryside you were in the desert um yeah and you probably saw like a completely different kind of lifestyle and community people that live completely so differently without the same access and conveniences we have living in you know such a nice city like shanghai yeah

And it makes you reflect on a lot of things, right? Yeah. So what was your thought process then? So once you guys were devastated that I didn't invite you, let's just kind of fast forward past that. But what was your thought process of, I'm just curious, because I saw those pictures. Why did you choose that place? How did that come about? And then I guess what were the key experiences that made you guys maybe reflect a little bit differently? Yeah.

- I think the key experience was Lijiang, right? I think me and Howie can probably, I can't, I won't speak for you, but from our discussions, I think Lijiang really impacted us the most. 'Cause Lijiang, they have different, they have these different , right? And these are old towns, right? Ancient kind of towns. They have like three different ones there. - Well, three major , and then we first went to like the major one

It was like tourist central. And then... Very touristy. The second time we went back, it was by accident. It was because we realized our itinerary was way too long on the car. So we made a stopover back in Lijiang again. And this was last minute booking of a hotel where we went to the second guzhen, which is suhe guzhen, which is the one that we fell in love with. There's these nice little restaurants and cafes and little hole-in-the-wall bars. And...

And everything, like, it's just a community of people. And a lot of these shops are opened by actually people who originally came and moved from the big cities like Beijing, Shanghai, right? To get away from things. Guangzhou. Shenzhen, right? Like, yeah, to get away from like this big city life and like the grind of like corporate ladder climbing. And they go in there and just like live a very like peaceful, like...

like life just opening up the little shop living in the countryside living in the mountains low stress right and they just do their own little business and they're like just live there happily you know and that really touched us that really touched me right yeah 100 yeah it was really touching and then one night uh howie and i we stumbled into this like little hole in the wall bar this little hole in the wall bar and it was it was unlike any other bar we ever been to where it's like

like the place couldn't have sat more than like 30 people. And it was so like swayee, it was like so casual that like, and it was so welcoming that like anyone, like strangers just walk in and everyone's like, just like greeted and like cheers in with each other. And you pull people over to your table and start drinking with them. Like, you know, you have, and you just build up a rapport and like anyone can just go up on stage and start singing and playing music and

and it was just so casual you just go and grab your own beers whenever you know yeah it was so nice i wanted to add to that because that could be just that bar right you could say that it was just that bar the owner kept the bar's atmosphere to be like that very straight very open-minded and whatever right everyone's being friendly everyone's talking to each other and like really openly just like hey who are you what are you where are you from yeah that kind of stuff

But I just do want to say that, I mean, this is the second time I was in Yunnan. And the last time I was there was for work. And I was in Dali. And I had the exact same experience in other bars, like two bars. And they're both the same thing. They have a guitar, open mic, people coming over with drinks, buying you drinks. You know, they don't even know you. These are patrons. These are not like...

Yeah, they don't work there. They're not trying to like, you know, raise money for you to spend more. No, they're just like, hey, you're here traveling? Hey, cool. Well, we like meeting new people. So it's like authentically friendly, you know, without a motive or an agenda, right? And that's getting more like more and more rare, especially in big city life. Yeah. And I want to add one more thing is that while I was walking around, I purposefully was asking questions to a lot of these shop owners and workers about

just trying to understand who they were, why they were there. Are they local? Are they travelers? Are they, you know, like what Justin said, a lot of them came from first year cities and trying to understand why. Right. Cause I was even looking at like, I was like, well, maybe I want to open up a shop here or something. Um, because it was not that expensive to, to, we were even talking about doing the podcast from Lee. Like it was just like, just like take, take trips out there, you know, because it was really nice. Um,

And like Justin was saying, there's a lot of people from first tier cities that have picked up and moved out there to live a little bit more of a simpler life. And I just saw something recently that really shocked me. So in 2010,

I'm going to ask you both here, Eric and Justin. In 2010, what was the census? What do you think the top city in China in terms of census of foreigners? Which city had the most foreigners? In 2010? In 2010. Which city had the most foreigners total? Not like per capita or anything like that. Yeah, in China. I would say Shanghai. In 2010? 2010, yeah. Most foreigners. City...

Are we including Hong Kong or excluding Hong Kong? Well, let's go... No, Hong Kong's not included. It would be Hong Kong. Hong Kong's not included because Hong Kong would be counted as foreign. Okay. Hong Kong and Taiwan would be counted as foreign. Back in 2010, I would say Beijing...

Or maybe like Guangzhou. Well, the top three, right? First, the most foreigners was in Guangdong. Second was Shanghai. And third was Beijing. So the top three that we all kind of guessed, right? Was it Guangzhou or Guangdong? Well, they count it as Guangdong.

That's kind of shady. Well, Guangdong is the bigger province, right? So Guangzhou is included in there. But Guangdong is very big. Because that includes Shenzhen as well. It's cheating. Like if you say city, it's probably Shanghai. Maybe. Yeah. Well...

But Shanghai is counted as a province of its own. Right. But I'm just saying, like, when we... I get it. But, like, in terms of, like, just the city. Yeah, yeah. Because people don't live in a province. Yeah, because fourth... It was a trick question. It is a trick question. It is a trick question. Fuck you, Howie. Because the fourth place was Jiangsu, right? Now... Silly. But here... You don't choose Jiangsu to live in. You choose the city. Yes. Yeah. But that's not the point. Let's not go off here. Yeah.

The point is, in 2020, we're so competitive. Me and Justin were just like, we have to get it right. I wasn't competing with you at all. No, no, no. We were competing against him of getting the question right. So in 2020, right? The same question. Top three. Number one. Talking about last year? Yeah, 2020. Oh, it's still based on provinces though? Yeah. Number one, last year, I would have to say...

Maybe Shanghai? Yeah, I would say Shanghai. Okay, so first place is still Guangdong. Okay. Right? And the numbers have increased. And the numbers have increased. So in 2010, it was 316,000. Now it's 418,000 expats. But that's like... That doesn't surprise me. It's... Okay. But this is our... My unconscious bias and potentially your unconscious bias, Justin, as well. We're thinking about like...

White foreigners. Yes. That's at least that was my unconscious bias. But if you don't look at white foreigners and you open it up to all non-Chinese countries, then I could totally see Guangdong. Yes. Right. Because you could have like Filipino people. You could have Africans. Yeah. It doesn't surprise me at all. Exactly. It's an unconscious bias. Well, Guangdong province is still much more industrial. Totally. Especially now they include Shenzhen in there as well. So I want to continue this because I didn't get to my point yet.

So in 2010, second place was Shanghai at 208,000, right? So 2020, where do you think Shanghai is now?

Wait, how much did Guangdong go up by? 100,000. So Guangdong went from what to what? 300,000 to 400,000, pretty much. And then Shanghai? Went from 208,000 to... And this is 220 before COVID, right? I don't know exactly when. It was just used as 2020. 300,000. But he's trying to fuck with us. Well, in terms of the ranking, maybe Shanghai fell down to third place.

Shanghai went down to third place. Oh, wow. And now it went down to 163,000. So less foreigners now in Shanghai. But who's number two then? The formerly number three was Beijing. Jiangsu. No. Are you ready? Are you ready? Are you ready? Wait, hold on, hold on. No, I'm not ready. Okay. We really want to get this right. We want to get this right so bad. So who's number two? Eric is so serious right now.

In overall population? Yeah. So let me help you a little bit. Yunnan. Let me help you a little bit. In 2010, first was Guangdong, second was Shanghai, third was Beijing, fourth was Jiangsu, fifth was Fujian. Okay, Fujian. So now you think Fujian is second place? No, I don't. I think it's like Zhejiang or something. I'll just say it right now. Yeah, just say it. I'll just say it. Yunnan. I was right. Fuck you. It's not Yunnan. Really? Yunnan, number two.

In terms of total population of foreigners? So ready? Get ready for this. Yunnan in 2010 had 47,000 people that were expats. Now, 2020, 379,000.

almost overtaking Guangdong. So is that just based on the percentage of growth or is that just total numbers? No, absolute numbers. Because it's 379 because Shanghai went down to like 180. 163. When something. Oh, really? So who are these people from? Well, a lot of them are from like Myanmar. Well, yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Southeast Asian countries. It's so close. You know, borders basically the Southeast. But why did they jump in 10 years? Like that much?

You know? Anyway. I thought it was interesting. When I saw this, it was, this is from the people census, the people's population census. And I saw this on X-Pack Focus. I saw that one as well. I didn't go into that. So it was interesting. I don't know. I was just like, I was pretty shocked, actually.

Yeah, it's shocking, especially when you put like kind of like our Western lens on it, right? Because like usually people are kind of just shocked when you say you're moving to like China from the West, right? They're like, oh, China, why are you moving to China, right? Yeah.

But like, there's so many people flooding into this country now from abroad, foreigners, because you know, whether it's they're chasing a venture or economic opportunities or, you know, they met someone here or, you know, just whatever, right? Leisure, they're coming in here and it's really opening up. But like, that's not a narrative you hear a lot, right? I guess in Western media, but we don't have to go down that road.

But anyway, so the reason why I brought that up was just the idea of Yunnan, right? Having so many people migrate to Yunnan, you know, to look for a better life or whatever, whatever their reasons are. And after Justin and I were there spending about a week, about, right? Going up and down Luguhu, Lijiang, Shangri-La.

um it was a nice time i mean it wasn't like one of those like we did not go to any cities you know like like big cities or like you know it was just like you know went to the mountains yeah we went to all the scenic areas like did you was was it just you two or like no no with with our with our girls we didn't plan this with our gals yeah the truth is we say we did that that's why we didn't actually plan this the girls planned it last minute

And then we just went along. We just went along. We didn't have a say. I originally wasn't going to go. And it was not until I told Vivi that I'm free now for a week that it all happened. But how did that happen? So, like, so the two girls... Why do you want to know so bad how it happened? It happened, Eric. Just deal with it. I have a point of view on some of this. Not a point of view, but I have questions around some of this stuff because I feel like, you know, I experienced some similar things. And so I wanted to talk through...

Like what? Like what do you mean by similar things, Eric? Like, you know, observing this simpler life kind of thing and then all of a sudden getting a different perspective. In Mongolia or previously? No. Well, obviously before whenever you're in a similar situation where you're detached from a bigger city, but it's sort of doubting a lot of things, right? When you go to a place and you're like, wow, like...

is so different and then you feel like you have a clean perspective on everything and then you doubt everything from before. Like you doubt and you feel like, oh my God, I am just a fucking ant in this world, right? - Well, I think the question that we were kind of dancing around before was like, how tempting is it for each of you or for each of us

That idea of, that romanticized idea of like escaping the grind of the city life and our jobs and to go out and kind of start a new life in like the country, you know? Like, is that tempting to you guys? Is that something you guys would fantasize about like realistically? What do you think, Eric? Yeah. And if so, why? Yeah. Yeah. It is tempting, but then...

I, I, my, my thought on this one was like, I went through this, like this potentially similar experience where you go to a completely different place. You see a much different, simpler way of life where people are making choices in a much, um, much different way. And it blew me away. Right. Like, and then you have this sort of

This confusing feeling. You're just kind of like, like I said, you like doubt everything from before. You're like, God, like, am I really even like living my life in the right way? Where do you think that comes from? Perspective. Part of it is perspective. And I remember just like, and you know, like while you're interacting with people that live there, like you're, you're the people that are taking you around and, and you're meeting these people, like you said, in the bars where people are super duper authentic and they just think they seem genuine and simple and,

They're not preoccupied with like all of the daily minutia of getting through life. Like we're always like thinking about a deadline, right? Like I wake up every morning and I'm just like, fuck, what meetings do I have today? Like before I even open my eyes, I'm thinking about my iCal. Like when can I get to the gym so that I can like decompress a little bit, like all the meetings, like all the pressure, oh my God, all the different, you know, pressure points and each of the conversations, oh, I got to do this, right? And you're just constantly going through this grind. You don't even have time to like,

and step back and think for yourself sometimes. And then you go to this place and all of a sudden, number one, you're detached from like all your work. You're detached. Like you can unplug a little bit, right? You're truly, I mean, it's a cliche, right? And then you're unplugged. You see all these people. And then I just started getting obsessed. And I was just like, oh my God, I'm talking to Ann. I'm like, God, this is so different. Like, and then I go through this almost false or,

I sort of, I'm skeptical of my own feelings in the moment because I'm like, how could I feel so polar opposite than I normally do? And how can I just question like everything in my life is about, but I have this powerful feeling like you're in a dream. And then I'm talking to all the local people like, God, like what is your life like? And it's a cliche. You were saying you're interviewing these people in the bar. And then I just feel like I'm naive. I'm an idiot. I'm like that fucking idiot.

typical city guy that's got it all come to the fucking little town page you know be so patronizing to him like oh you live in your little town what how beautiful how cute for you how cute and I'm just like I'm just like the giant asshole and then like in that moment I have like all of this this conflicting ideas and feelings it's very emotional experience and then I'm like literally like acting like an idiot I'm like god I'm gonna move the mountains okay we're moving to the fucking Incheon now and I'm like

And the people there are probably similar to us. They fucking look at the same social media. They're hustling. They're doing their thing. And they're just like keeping quiet because they want to...

you know, they're trying to run a business, right? I'm their client and I'm just like, oh my God, I'm going to move here, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they probably hear this. They're probably rolling their eyes. They're rolling their fucking eyes, like physically, because they were driving. Like literally rolling, not even inside. They're just like, it's like when Ann rolls her eyes at me and then I'm just like, like for four days, I'm just like, oh my God,

This place is, oh my God. So the old, you know, Shisha, like the emperors were here. Oh my God, this is life. You're trying to suck in the culture and the history. I fucking figured it out. This is fucking life. But then inside of me, I've been through this experience before. I've gone in different places and I'm like, no. You think just because it's different, the grass is always fucking greener. Yeah. Right? And then it was interesting. And I, but I, what I really respect and admire about Ann, I'm like, so would you want to move to a place like this? And she's like, nope.

And then I'm like, well, how will you feel when we go back to Shanghai in a few days? She's going to be like, I'm going to be really happy. I'm like, you don't like this place? She's like, no, I love it. And I'm like, so when we land in Shanghai, drive in the DD, get back home, she's like, I'm going to love it. You know, but like for me at the time, I'm like, I don't want to go back to Shanghai. I don't want to get in the DD. I don't want to look at like the streets and this crowded metropolitan area. I want to live in like the New Mexico of China.

It's literally like the new motherfucking Mexico of China. It's very Shenmi when you go in the desert and you see all this stuff. Because when you see trees and water, it's not that Shenmi. It's poetic. Because you know that people live in these places. It's very, very beautiful and poetic. But when you go to the mountains...

and it's deserts and you just see nothing. And you're like, people actually lived out here. Then you believe in like shamans and gods and spirits and all that shit, you know? And so I went through this conflict inside me, but I know, I knew every time I go somewhere new, I reject the place I just came from, but that's not reality. And you just, you, you have to deal with this tension and like remind yourself, there are great places in the world like Eton's fine that are very close and

You don't need to live there all the time, but there are great places like Shanghai as well. And you just need to keep moving between them to continuously broaden your perspective and not fall into this like little bullshit, kind of naive, overly cynical. You know what I'm saying? It's a very emotional feeling. I know exactly what you're saying. So I'm going to share a story that Jess and I were discussing when we were in Yunnan near the end of the trip when we were in Suhe.

We're walking around and I was actually, I brought it up first, right? I was like, you know, I'm looking at storefronts. I'm like, how much does it cost to have a store here? It was like actually asking people about the rental prices. And you know, like you come across as a jackass. Cause like when I was there, I'm like, how much is a vineyard? They're like, they're thinking to themselves like, yeah, you got $30 million. But there's like super polite. But it's completely doable. You could do it. It's like, I want quite for the whole year for the year for rent. Yeah.

Yes. Like, laowen.wuan, you know? So anyway, so we were talking. I was talking to all these people. And I brought up to Justin and the girls. And the girls are like, you would never. Right? And then Justin's like, yo, I could see it. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I think we could do something. Right? And I'm like, yeah, what if we just, like, move the podcast over here? We open up a bar.

You know, we do some, like, we just do some stuff out here. You know what I mean? We're talking about just like brewing our own beer out there. Yeah, just like whatever. Like ice cream. We're talking about ice cream. We're like, we open up our own ice cream shop out there. We can do ice cream here, whatever. And then like, you know, and I'm like, yeah, Eric would be totally down. He's totally in.

So we were just going off about this, right? And really sucking it in. And just like you said, Eric. So you guys both got into it. Yes, very much so. But the girls were kind of like, you guys are dumbasses. Or did they support you?

They were supportive, but they're all... At least Vivi was like, you can't do shit. They were laughing. Long story short, we were, just like you said, we were sucking it up. We were sucking it in. We were enjoying it. We were imagining all the possibilities of a new life here.

in li jiang and and yeah and it felt real it felt real in the moment you wanted it so that's the scary thing yeah is that in that moment you're willing to pull the trigger yeah right you are emotionally there yeah you want it you think this is the right numbers yeah we're like it's not even a big investment we're crunching numbers we can lose all the money of our investment and it's okay in that moment you got carried away with the emotion yeah

But it still calls to me. But hold on. And the point I was trying to get at is, so, you know, we were like that when we were on the ground in Yunnan. And I swear to you, we land back in Pudong, Shanghai. We're walking through the airport. And what's the first thing that Justin says to me? The first thing. He turns to me and goes...

God, you ever get that feeling? You just like, you feel like you come back home. It's like, it just feels so good. Like Shanghai is such a great city. And I was, the thing is, what made me laugh was I was on my way to say the exact same thing to him. Yeah. Yeah. He was just about to say the same thing. Yeah. What, what, I think what I'm trying to figure out, like what the emotion is.

Because, you know, we're just so, human beings are so emotional. What scares me or frustrates me is how bought in I can be when I go to one of these places, like, okay, like very chong dong, very headstrong, right? Very irrational. And the emotions and the feeling are driving my entire thought process. And I'm so sure that, hey, this is different and I need to kind of embrace this.

And when I go back to Shanghai, I don't have the same exact experience because I'm trying to hold on to that feeling. So when I fly back to Shanghai, I'm like, no, you got to hold on to that feeling. Don't lose that. Don't like become, you know, a hamster and, you know, like in this, in this, this rat race, right. Hold on to that feeling.

And I can usually hold on for like half a day or so. But then the next day I'm like, okay, whatever. And then I lose it. And it's not that I necessarily think like Shanghai is the best city in the world. I mean, it's obviously a great city, but then I just get used to it. And then that resistance to living in Shanghai goes away after like one day.

And that's the scary thing. Cause every time I went back to the U S it would be the same. I'd be like, Oh, this is what life is all about. This is, you know, yeah, this is great. You know, I'm like, I don't need to come back to China. Right. Well, I think, I think that kind of kind of reinforces the point you made previously. It's about like the importance of travel and moving around and seeing all these different places constantly, because then you constantly are putting yourself in that mode where you're appreciating things.

all the little different things, right? On either side. And when you stay in one place for too long, you lose sight of that appreciation many times, right? And you lose sight of that feeling, that magic, that if we can capture that in a bottle, that feeling that you said, that like the day we came back after a long trip, like if you can capture that in a bottle and just like inject yourself with that every day, like it would be like euphoria. It would be like motivation. It'd be inspiring, right?

And, you know, going back to when Howie and I were in Lijiang, we talked to a lot of people and many of these people, you know, it's interesting talking to them because exactly the kind of what we're talking about, what you mentioned about being like 冲动, right? And like, we're just being naive and we're caught up in the moment.

Well, these people made that decision. They got over that hump because some of these people worked in big, well-known companies here in China, right? Some of them were from Shenzhen, Beijing, Shanghai. They were working in these well-known companies that if I were to tell you, you would know these companies, right? And they just decided one day to up and leave and get out of that life, get out of that routine and move somewhere and kind of start a whole new life, right?

And, you know, I'm curious because we didn't stick around long enough to really get into like a deep, deep conversation and personal conversation with them, obviously. But I'd be curious if you were to ask them like what, like we were to, if they were here right now in the studio with us and hearing what we're saying, I wonder what kind of take they would have on it all, right? Having actually been through it.

And, you know, I actually had this spiritual moment when I was in Lijiang. And I didn't even tell you how yet, but it was the first night when we went into that bar, right? And we were sitting in the corner, and then you had a phone call, so you left. You walked outside to take a phone call. And, you know, there was a guy up there playing music and singing on the guitar. The Xinjiang guy? Huh? Oh, you're talking about the bar owner. The bar owner guy, right? And I'm just sitting there with my beer, right?

and he's playing music and I'm in Lijiang and I'm in this bar. We're there for the first time and I'm just like soaking it all in. I'm just alone. And I just have like this real spiritual moment where I'm thinking like, is this what it's all about? Like, you know, like, like seriously, like, is this what, what it's all about? You know, like,

You know, like we try to condescend and patronize the idea of it, right? But like maybe this is what it's all about. Because I'm just taking into account all the feelings I'm having right now. It's been so long since I felt this way. And it's really conflicting because on one hand, I see it as a very conflicting kind of feelings. On one hand, when I look at the people that moved out there,

and started a whole new life there. On one hand, I respect that a lot because I'm sure it takes a lot of courage to do that, to make that decision. And I see it as kind of like they're just, I mean, do they have their own kind of like day-to-day monotony and things that they have to deal with to run a business and the realities of life that they had to deal with? Sure, no matter where you are, you have to deal with those. But I feel like they're doing it on their own terms, right? Instead of living in this kind of hamster wheel that we do in the big cities,

where we're bombarded by all these things that we feel we have to do. And that it's not really even on our own terms, right? It's kind of being dictated for us. With them, I feel like they're living life on their own terms a little bit. And that's very, there's something very liberating and romantic about that. But on the other hand, I'm conflicted in that idea because a part of me also feels like, well, are they just running away from something? You know, like a part of me really felt that way. Like as much as I admired them,

And I envied their position. A part of me was like, hmm, were these guys just the people that ran away from like a challenge? Or they couldn't hack it. Yeah, they like, they couldn't take it. They couldn't hack it. Exactly. And they're just running away from their problems, you know? And that might not be fair to them to say that, but I can't help but also feel that way. And if so, is there something, is that wrong? Is that wrong to do that necessarily? If they're happier? Yeah.

I don't know. But it's a very kind of conflicting emotion that I have about it. About the whole idea, the whole romantic idea of leaving, right? I don't know. Well, even just the idea of what you just said of, is it that they couldn't hack it? Is it because they couldn't be successful in...

such a competitive environment. So they ran away. Like, were they the weak ones? Yeah. Right. I mean, if just using that as an idea, I feel like, I mean, one thing I mentioned a while ago in an episode was a friend of a high school friend of mine that moved to, um, you know, uh, a non city. And he would always say to me, he was like, Oh, you, you city, city life, city boy, you know, sounds amazing. It looks amazing. You know?

And I'm like, well, you can come here. No, it's not for me. You know, I'm really down to just have my barbecues on the weekend and do my delivery on the weekdays and have a simple life, you know, and raise my children. That's fine for him. You know what I mean? And just like the people, maybe it's not about, you know, they could or could not hack it or be competitive. Maybe they're just not fit for it, period. Because it's not for everybody.

And maybe even the fact that you're even questioning yourself. Maybe you're not fit for it. Maybe. Maybe you are more bohemian than you thought, for lack of a better adjective. That's a fitting adjective, I think. You know who would be great to include in this conversation that I just thought of that would be so relevant? Our friend Brett.

He lives in Dali now. That's right. Yeah. I thought he was leaving China. I thought that too. But no, he lives in Dali now. Really? Yeah. I'm pretty sure it's Dali, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dali. And he's just raving about how beautiful it is there all the time. And I really want to, we should do a trip to visit him actually. Yeah. Because Dali is awesome. We have a friend, Brett, who was on one of our earlier, early episodes of the show with Bruce and Brett. Those were the two guests. Yeah.

Brett was a guy who worked the corporate life here in Shanghai for many years. High position. High position, super smart guy, super industrious. He's just a great guy. And never in a million years did I think he would just kind of up and leave and move to a place like Dali and just kind of like...

like you know live that more bohemian lifestyle i don't even know if that would be if that's actually what he said that the last time we talked to him he said he loved it there yeah yeah yeah

So he's an example of that. You know exactly what we're talking about now. It'd be great to get his perspective. I think the point of this conversation and what we're trying to share, whether it's these fleeting feelings that Eric mentioned, or whether it's the conflicting, like polarizing sides of how you live your life, right? Or the type of life that you may want to live. Or maybe it's just as simple as not needing to follow what,

society deems as your the real way the I guess the proper way of living your life which is making more money having a higher position you know the rat race that you're talking about buying into the script yeah you not buy into the script maybe that is the question that you want to ask yourself is do you want to buy into the script you know because one thing that when Eric was sharing his stories

Just like speaking with the locals. And plus when Justin was saying he was speaking with the locals. One thing that really popped in my mind that was not mentioned is that when you're... Another stress that a lot of people deal with

is the peers that surround you, whether it's your coworkers or clients or just friends. The way people may even judge you and the way people compete with you. Why are there so many people that need to wear name brands or need to show off expensive gear or show off their social media how well off they're doing? But then when you're in a place like we're in Lijiang,

Nobody even asked what we did. They didn't care. They didn't care. And we were just like talking life. Like, oh, you like this music? Oh, yeah, we play a little music. Oh, you play music too? That's cool. Oh, where are you guys going? It was never about am I better than you? Are you better than me? That sort of like the subconscious conversation that we all kind of have, you know?

Well, there's a lot of layers to this conversation, right? Because if we try to break it down and, okay, let's, for example, because we know Shanghai the best because we live here, we look at a lot of Shanghai life of people of our age group, right? In the working class. You know, why are people kind of hustling all the time? Why are people working so hard and doing this and that, right? And I would assume for a large number of people,

If you were to ask him, one of the main driving factors realistically would be to earn a better income, make some money, right? Live a better life, be successful, all these things. Okay, so that's great. But if we look at it and we looked at that same scenario and was like, okay, well, what if you didn't need to make that much money?

You know, because people are like, I have to make this much money. I have a house to pay. I have a family to pay for. It's so expensive to live in Shanghai. So expensive to live in Shanghai. I want to buy nice things. I want to occasionally go on vacations. Right. I need to buy a car, blah, blah, blah. So you need this money. But OK, well, what if the costs were dramatically lower? What if we slash the costs? Well, what if it was a fraction of the cost you have to pay now?

Would you still need to live the lifestyle that you need to live? Would you still want to live the lifestyle that you want to live? And I think that is what a lot of these people experience when they move out into like the countryside, into the mountains, into these other cities and towns where all of a sudden the costs of living there are so dramatically reduced. It completely changes their perspective on life.

how they should live their lives. And what is the final point of their day-to-day living in the first place? - Well, one of the guys that I, you were not with me, but I was buying a yogurt drink from this little cafe.

And I was talking to the guy. And he was very friendly. He was giving me samples. He was making all this stuff. He's like, I saw you looking at this menu. Let me just make it for you. I'm like, really? I'm like, okay. He's like, no, you got to try it. It's like my own creation. I'm like, okay, cool. So he gave it to me. I tried it. And I was curious. I was like, so where are you from? He's like, I'm from Beijing. I was like, oh, you're from Beijing. Okay, cool. So how long have you been living here for? He's like, one year.

A little over a year. I'm like, wow, okay. And he asked me, he's like, where are you from? I'm like, I'm from Shanghai. He's like, ah, big cities. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we started talking, having a normal conversation. And then what he revealed was that he was actually in the same industry as me, filmmaking. And he was in the props department, right? In the art department. And the props department is notorious for being heavily overworked and really stressful, right? Yeah.

I was like, damn, you're in the props department. I work in the film industry as well. I mean, I'm a director. He's like, oh, Lao Xiang, Lao Xiang. We're talking like that. And then I was like, so why did you leave? He's like, well, you know the industry. I mean, you know how stressful it is. It's crazy. And it's very competitive. The stress that he was going through, it was very bad for his health.

And so when he came to visit, he fell in love with the city and he decided, because he also has a love for drinks and coffee and stuff like that. So he's like, you know what? I'm going to open up a cafe. He looked at how much it costs. He said the investment was 100,000 RMB for a whole year. And he took that out and put it out. And he's even now. But what he was trying to get at is that

He's like, I don't even care if I'm making money. All I know is that every day I'm meeting new people. I'm seeing smiles. I'm creating smiles from my drinks. And I don't have the pressure of thinking about what next week is going to bring me if I don't make the money or whatever. Because his overhead is so low. It's just him and an assistant. You know what I mean? And the initial cost, the buy-in costs were not that great initially.

That he doesn't feel that pressure. And then so I asked him, I said, okay, well, do you plan on staying here for the long term? He's like, I don't know, but all I know is that I really love it right now. Maybe just like you're saying, as simple as that.

Yeah. I mean, obviously making money and earning an income is such a huge part of, I think, most people's lives, right? That it completely dominates your lives. Like there is no more room for anything else that doesn't contribute to the goal of making money, right? But if you were to remove that need, right?

If you were to do away with that need, what would your life be like? Right? And I think these are the people that are moving there are kind of experimenting with that. Oh, Eric, what do you think about all this? Like, did you have these kind of experiences or thoughts when you were walking around Mongolia recently? When you were traveling around Mongolia recently? Put me on the spot again? I'm just conversation. It's just conversation. I'm more of like an offensive guy. I don't like playing defense. Yeah.

What does that mean? You want to come on the offensive now? Yeah. Okay. Well, how about this? Let me frame it. It was like so manufactured. It was just kind of like trying to tee it up. Like, here. Okay, little baby. Because you were quiet. Yeah, you're quiet. I'm trying to bring you into the conversation. No, no. Well, I think when people are quiet, we assume that there might be like a...

a reason for it or they're you know maybe they're not happy or they're not engaged or whatever but sometimes like but i think like what i've learned is like when people are quiet sometimes it's just they're thinking they're processing they're actually super duper engaged so you don't need to bring them in because you know they're thinking about things right so okay anywho the fans want to know the fans want to know what do you think

No, I'm torn. I think I'm torn on the inside right now. I'm just thinking through all this stuff and I'm kind of torn, right? I'm thinking about a lot of the stuff that you said. Are you thinking about your own life right now? I feel like you're thinking about your own life right now. I'm thinking about... Like you're questioning your whole life right now. I don't know if it's so personal to me. I'm just thinking about people in general.

and why they make the decisions that they do and why they would move from a small city to a large city and a large city to a small city. And vice versa. Yeah, and vice versa. And what makes them do that. And, you know, like traveling to a new place

probably makes you think about your values a little bit and how you're living. And whether you're in a big city or a small city, it's easy to go through that routine. And that routine, I very much agree. I really like what your, your point, Justin, that, that pressure, like where, like there, there is pressure living in a big city and that pressure then dominates everything in your life because you're running everything through that filter because you're always feeling that pressure. And because it's so overwhelming, it, it,

kind of overshadows everything. So then if you did move to a small city, you didn't have that type of pressure, what would change? Now, the thought that I had around all of these conversations was that maybe it's not about a big city or a small city, like the notion of pressure, the notion of stress, the notion of

you know, wanting something different, maybe everyone feels that way. And so like when you go to these small cities, it's like, it's very ideal, idyllic, it's romanticized, right? It's very liberating. But again, it's like the grass is greener. So you're talking to these people and, you know, maybe they, I mean, do they, are they genuinely living a more meaningful life and more satisfying life? Who knows? Um,

They're telling you that or they're articulating that, but maybe deep down inside, they miss something just as profoundly as we are, right? When I was in Yingchuan, we met an owner of a little restaurant. It was like a nongjia le, a little kind of farmer's restaurant.

near the winery. And the guy was like super smart. We were talking to him and he seemed like the same, like the guys that you guys met. And he was just saying that, you know, like I've never really been to those big cities. I've never been to other places that make wine. Cause he, I think he's involved in winemaking as well. And he's like, I really want to know what it's like out there. Like, I don't know if what we're doing is all that good. I'm curious. And so this, this notion of like hierarchy, this notion of like,

this notion of trying to get better and all that stuff. Like what is that like in a small city where maybe there's less competitive pressures, you know, and maybe there's a different anxiety that forms. So, and maybe this is also just self therapeutic to me to help me like make sense of everything. But then I'd like to think that no matter what type of environment you're in,

being mindful about that environment and being able to do things on your own terms, that is a discipline and a skill and a mindset that everyone struggles with, no matter where you live. And just because you go live in a small town, maybe you live there for a year and then a whole nother set of world of problems kind of pops up. So I like to think that

It doesn't matter where you live. Like, I want to get to a point where it doesn't matter where I live. I can be clear-headed about it. And I can really have a full perspective so that when I'm in that small town, I can still think big city thoughts. And when I'm in a big town, I can still think small town countryside thoughts. That's a good way of putting it. Yeah.

So that's what I was thinking. But it's just... It's messy. I don't like feeling messy. I don't like feeling emotionally messy like after you woke up from a really intense dream. I don't like that feeling. I like control. I like things...

to be clear and consistent. I don't want to live my life in a way where, you know, every day I'm trying to live a more meaningful life, all of a sudden traveled another town and questioned everything that I did for the last whatever years. I hate that feeling, you know? And so I think you have to then embrace that feeling. So when I was in Inkside, I was just telling myself like, don't,

Don't get caught up in like how emotional you feel in this moment. Just embrace that moment. Okay. Like that crazy, emotional, messy feeling of wherever you go, that new type of perspective that that is life. And you're never going to be a hundred percent correct. You might not even be 20% correct. And you know, it's, you can't kind of second guess yourself in that way. I think what you're saying is, is really, really profound. And when I reflect on myself, I,

I actually, I'm different. I actually welcome that feeling that you're talking about. And I do it because for me, it reminds me that I'm actually alive and living in a way. And I'm not just like in a comatose state of repeating routine because I fall into that a lot. But every time when things kind of get like thrown up into the air and re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-

reorganized and it's just kind of a little messy and I'm not sure where the pieces are going to land and I'm questioning everything again. These are the moments that kind of remind me like, oh, okay, well, that means I'm living in the moment right now. That means I'm alive right now. That means I'm actually thinking outside of my routine, outside of my box, at least for this very moment.

right and that's the feeling when i said i had this kind of like spiritual moment in the bar when you were on your phone call howie that's exactly the feeling i had i was kind of a little torn a little bit confused but also inspired and moved at the same time and i was like questioning a lot of things i was like questioning myself and i'm like oh well what is this all about like have i just been going down this wrong path like what am i doing right and i didn't have answers

But I enjoyed that moment because it really felt like a spiritual moment of like a certain reckoning and a certain sense that like a welcome reminder that like, hey,

You've been in this routine for so many years in Shanghai. You've been like in this comatose state for so long. This very moment you're having with this beer in your hand in this bar right now, it might be fleeting. It might not last past the next 10 minutes. But for these 10 minutes, you're breaking out of that matrix right now. You're truly alive in this very moment. So soak it in, enjoy it, and try to take what you can from it.

And you're gonna fall back into the atmosphere very soon and you're gonna go back into your routine and all the kind of daily trappings of our normal lives.

But it's like being aware in that moment, like, oh, I'm having a spiritual moment. And it's like deja vu when you know you're having deja vu. It's like you're aware of it. Like, oh, I am having deja vu right now. It's like having a lucid dream almost, right? It's like in those few minutes, I'm aware I'm having a spiritual moment and I'm like appreciative of it. And I'm like, okay, well, let's try to absorb and gather everything I can from this moment and see what it can tell me. Yeah.

Well, that's something that we actually did talk about a little bit, that idea of the fleeting moment, right? I feel like it's almost like, Eric, don't you feel like it's like human nature? It's automatic to be comfortable in this routine, right? Yeah.

And that could be routine of thought. It could be routine of work. It could be routine of lifestyle, right? I think humans are just comfortable in that, right? We're creatures of habit. We want the quote-unquote safety of routine. Yeah. And it's these little moments of epiphanies that you have throughout life where everything all of a sudden becomes crystal clear. And you're like, wait a minute.

This is the real thing. Like you said, when you were sitting at the bar, like this is the real moment. I'm outside the matrix. I feel alive. And then you just hop back in. Like, like, how do you, how do you, how do you find ways to, to, to remind yourself that feeling, you know? I mean, one thing that Eric always speaks about is, is, is mindfulness and, and creating that habit to remind yourself. Right. And, and,

even that to me is, is like, cause I, cause I believe in that as well, but it's easier said than done. Right. And when we were walking around in, uh, in Yunnan and talking about this, I did mention one time where I kind of hacked myself. Um,

in reminding myself how to get out of that routine way of thinking and reprioritize, I guess, a certain type of mindset. And I've mentioned this to you and I thought it was kind of funny and maybe I'll share it with everybody. Eric, did I ever tell you this? Because you weren't part of this conversation. Back in college, I got really into this negative mindset in college where I didn't know

what I was doing, where I was going, and I just felt very lost. And my first year in college, I did really horribly. And I felt like I was just stuck in this negative mindset, right? And I hit rock bottom. I'm not going to get too much into it. But what I'm trying to get at is I created this technique that helped me get out pretty quickly. And I was...

kind of known for this in my dormitory and people laughed at me at first and then they realized it was it was kind of silly but kind of worked what i did was i um after hitting rock bottom i realized that i needed like an anchor point i needed an anchor point to um always fall back on whenever i felt lost whenever i felt unsure of myself or what i was doing and that anchor point that i realized at that moment was i need to do things

that are more than for myself. Right? I needed to find something. I needed a reason to do, to make decisions or to do things that I needed to do that's beyond myself and for that was my family. Right? And so, what does that mean? Like, I realized that my family went through a lot of struggles, family being my mother in particular, to put me in a place where I was at that time, college, raising me and all that stuff. So,

I was, I decided I needed to remind myself that everything I did, I did it for her or my family, my sister, my mother, my father, et cetera. And so I wrote all these post-it notes. I wrote do it for the family. Right. And I literally plastered my dormitory room with hundreds of post-it notes with a different size, different designs of do it for the family.

And so every single moment, every direction I glanced at, I saw do it for the family. And so when friends would come over, they'd be like, what the fuck is this? I'm like, it's just a reminder for myself. And so I would always talk about it as well. So it became this like habit where my mind was, I was constantly reminding myself I was doing things not for myself, but it was for the family. Right.

As silly as that may sound, I went from a failing first year semester to top of the class. Pretty much top of the class. Like straight A's the second year. And then winning awards and stuff like that. Overnight. So I wanted to share that because I remember I was telling you about this, Justin. You were like, okay, that's kind of interesting, right? And if it could help anybody, I mean, listening, I mean, that's a very Hulk smash kind of way of doing things, but...

And I use Hulk Smack to always talk about Hulk. But it worked. You know, I haven't done anything like that since. I only used that for the, like, two, three years in my university years, sophomore to senior year. And after that, I never did it again. But during that time, it really helped me remind myself because I kept thinking, like, I keep forgetting. You know, I keep forgetting these epiphanies. I keep forgetting these real reasons of living, the real reasons of doing things, you know?

Well, if it helped you so much back then, how come like you don't use like that same sort of technique? I don't know. Now? Yeah, maybe I could. If you should. But it was just like a funny story that I didn't think about for many, many years until we were discussing this topic in Yunnan, where suddenly that memory came back to me and I shared it. I fantasize about leaving a lot, actually. Yeah.

I don't know if this is normal. Maybe a lot of people do. Maybe it's a common fantasy. But quite frequently, I fantasize about... I've even fantasized before about leaving and joining Greenpeace. I've had these fantasies before. And I guess part of it comes from this wanting to just escape life, whatever that means, right? And however good or bad that is.

It's a certain feeling of wanting to just leave it all. And it spawns all these kind of fantasies of just doing different things and leaving. And it's like,

It's romantic, you know? You ever see that movie? You guys ever remember that Ben Stiller movie? Like the something life of like... Walter Smitty. Walter Smitty, right? What was it? The Fabulous Life or the Interesting Life or something? Yeah, Walter Mitty, right? Walter Mitty. Or something like that. It was a James Thurber short story. That's such a great movie because like that's how I feel. Like that's exactly how I feel, you know?

The Secret Life. Yeah, The Secret Life. Is it Walter Mitty? Yeah, Walter Mitty. If you haven't checked it out, check out that movie with Ben Stiller. It's an awesome movie, in my opinion. But when I was talking about this kind of spiritual moment, I guess the image that comes to mind when I say I'm out of The Matrix. I forget which Matrix sequel it was in, but it was in one of the sequels, I think, where

and Neo and the girl, what's her name? Whatever. Trinity, right? They're in the ship. And in order to escape, they're in the machine world. They're not in the Matrix. They're outside the Matrix. They're flying in the Nebuchadnezzar or one of the ships. And it's just them two. And then they're trying to get into the machine world, like the machine headquarters.

And all these machines start firing missiles. In order for them to avoid the missiles, they start going vertically up into the atmosphere. And they keep going up, they keep going as high as they can climb. And all of a sudden, they break through the cloud, right? In the darkness. And they see like the sunlight for a brief moment. Like the ship goes up above the clouds, right?

and they're just like they see the sunlight for like the first time in their lives and just it just happens for a few seconds and then they fall back into the clouds into the atmosphere back into the machine world and that's how i felt at that time i just felt like just a brief moment of like like i see the sun for the first time you know and as silly as that might sound i think like it's those moments if you accumulate a lot from those moments in your life you kind of remind yourself that there are bigger things

than what we're doing on a day-to-day basis. There are more important things than all the important things that we think we have to do every single day. And there's a bigger reason, I think, to why we're here on this earth. There's a bigger reason than just performing well at our jobs, right? There's gotta be.

Because that's a very man-made thing. Or what if it was opposite? What if it's opposite, right? What if there's nothing more and more than doing good at your job? No, no, no. What I mean, not opposite in that way. I mean, like, what if it means like nothing? It's literally nothing. There is no meaning. And including trying to be the best at your job or being, you know, super rich or whatever. I mean, that's just meaningless. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. On a whole different topic, have you guys... I know you have...

Recently, you shared a link, this video, this Tony, the comedian, Tony Hinchcliffe. Did you see that? I did. I did. That's big news now. Eric, did you see that? Let's share it with Eric. So this is a viral video that is going around in the States right now. There's this comedian called Tony Hinchcliffe. He's fairly well known.

And there was a Chinese national comedian called Deng Peng. I don't know him. But he's been in the circuit for quite so many years. He's opened up for this comedian Tony Hinchcliffe before. And then he was introducing Tony onto the stage. And Tony comes onto the stage...

and says something along the lines of like give it up for this motherfucking chinese chink over here this fucking dirty ass chink you know and to him he was it was like all a joke to him but like it wasn't funny and there was no punch line he was just calling this guy he just went on a racist hurrah like yeah like a really racist rant but now there are these like comedians in the circuit and

non-Asian comedians in the circuit coming up and kind of like defending Tony Hinchcliffe for this and saying that like, you guys don't know Tony. He meant it as like a complete joke. This is just part of his humor. He's invited this Chinese comedian many times to be his opener before. They have a working relationship. And it was just all part of this like, this terrible joke that he was doing.

And it's like, there's like all this debate going on now and he's catching a lot of heat as he should. Because if you watch the, if you listen to the actual clip. It was cringy. It was really cringy. Like, because there's no punchline. There's no like, aha, okay, everyone gets it's a joke kind of thing. He was just saying like really racist things without a punchline. And it was just terrible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Irish Shuffer came and put out a video about that and he released...

the full clip of the Chinese comedian and then the full clip of Tony Hinchcliffe. Does the full clip reveal anything? So basically the purpose of releasing that video was to show that Tony was referencing the Chinese comedian's punchlines. And that's why he talked about soy sauce. That's why he talked about gunpowder. That's why he brought it all up.

it was because it was already brought up. Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't seen the full video. I'm assuming you saw the full video. I saw the full video. Did it make sense? Was it any better after seeing it? I don't think it got better, but I can see why they would say it. I just think that Tony was not funny. Like, I just don't think it was...

I mean, I'm all for racist humor. I love racist jokes. Yeah. I fucking love it. Even Chinese racist jokes. Yeah, me too. I just love fucking hilarious. But it's got to be funny. It's got to be funny. If it's not funny, it's just racist. Yeah. If you're coming in from like a very like hateful way, in a hateful way, then I don't think it's that funny. So the reason why I feel like there is that fine line is because if you listen to what, what's the Chinese comedian's name again?

So anyway, so if you listen to his routine, he talked a lot about white people, you know, about like the ignorance of white people and also bragging about Chinese. So...

If I was a white guy, if I was Tony, and I listened to that, and let's say I got a little bit offended, let's say, or I realized that, okay, well, you know what? I can play on that. Then, yes, I can see Tony coming in and being like, I'm going to crush you because you are crushing white people. So I'm going to crush you right back. So I can see that. I just think that he did it distastefully. That's all I'm saying.

You know, I'm trying to be fat. It's a fine line. It's a fine line. It's a fine line. Like what one person can say and get away with the other person, you know, like, and then you don't want, you don't, you don't want a culture where no one can say anything. So there's no like black and white on a lot of this stuff. And like, there's always a risk, you know, and then people will then decide like how much risk they want to take, like how outspoken they are.

Yeah. I mean, obviously there's also a double standard, right? Like in America, you can crack jokes on white people all the time. There's no problems with that. But like if you start cracking the same jokes with minorities, then it gets a little touchy. Then it gets a little gray, a little bit borderline. It's definitely double standard. The question is, is that double standard justified? Yeah. Given historical reality, right? Yeah, yeah. I don't know. But there's a, I think this Dan Peng guy is also catching some heat about

At least within the comedian circuit, he's like... Well, for calling it out. For calling it out instead of just approaching Tony in the first place, but posting it right away and saying he's just clout chasing and he's just riding the wave of the whole AAPI kind of anti-Asian hysteria movement that's going on right now as well. I don't know. All I know is that living away from America for so long...

and being able to view what happens in that country from a distant perspective. I personally realize there's a lot of shit in America that I was not necessarily blind to, but maybe less... I didn't realize how stupid a lot of shit is in America. Now, when I say stupid, I don't mean like...

like, not intelligent. I mean, stupid as in, like, ridiculous. Whether it's the idea of racism, you know, even the topic of racism, the way people handle racism.

you know the i mean i feel like i'm afraid to to to to get open up another exactly so i'm not going to get too deep into it so close to the end let's just let's just let's just say that uh having that more distant perspective you realize um there is a lot of ridiculousness in america that happens um and and it's perpetuated by um by the media

Well, we talked about this in a previous episode of ours. It was about like, does distance give you more perspective, right? And that was a debate we were having in terms of like, we're not living in American society anymore and we haven't been for many years, but we're still very much in touch, at least with the news that's going on there. And does removing ourselves and looking at it kind of like as like a test tube case, right? Like where we're looking at like germs on a Petri dish, right?

from afar, does this give us, it definitely gives us a different perspective, but does this give us necessarily a better perspective or not? You know, how would our feelings and emotions be different had we never moved to China and we were just always living in the States? Would we be feeling much differently about all this than we are now? It's an interesting question. Anything to add, Eric? I think my final thought, I think this is a good, maybe a good end point, but just to go back to the conversation, I'm,

in a i suppose in a in a positive way more confused about life than i was um you know coming into this conversation i didn't expect that we'd talk about it but i i uh are you like is your brain just a mess right now yeah it's a mess it's a mess i didn't exercise today but um

I didn't eat very well, but no, I think it's a good kind of confusion. You have to embrace some of these moments of confusion. You can't, but I thought it was a really great conversation. Super duper provocative. And I'm, when I'm thinking about it and just from our, our, our listeners as well, it's like, um, you know, how do we live life? Not in this comatose state. Like, I think you put it real well, Justin, like,

This, this, this comatoseness, right? Like I, like I'm thinking back and maybe I'm second guessing myself a lot, but how do you get to a point where you're not living your life with regrets and you're not being closed minded either? Because I think part of our challenge, our, our part of us, the anxiety that the three of us feel is we're so open-minded, um,

that it then leaves us open to second guess ourselves our whole lives and you've got to have some kind of conviction you got to stand for something at this point i mean it's like we're in you know we don't have that much longer on this earth and you know how you're talking about this these moments of just these special moments of um you know maybe like you're super grateful or mindful or or some people call it awe right when you see the earth and the planet and like

you feel this, the sense of awe. And it's like, how do we produce genuine feelings of gratitude, of awe, of thankfulness, of joy every single day? Like these are simple, simple words that, you know, that we can,

roll off the tongue just like that joy ah yeah thankfulness you know gratitude and it's like but like like when we start talking about this we start second guessing ourselves it's like i feel like i'm rushing all like all the time like this morning i woke up gotta get a haircut gotta get photos i don't want to let my friends down come to the podcast then i got another i have like right after this i have to go and have another commitment and i'm running around like a fucking headless chicken and

am I enjoying this? Am I just under the pressure and obsessed by things that are being scripted by external expectations? And I think at the end of the day, we just all want to,

not have regrets in our lives. And for sure it has to do with like doing things for your family. So what are the things that you can do every day that you're not gonna regret? So now I'm like totally confused. I'm like, am I living the life that I want? Like, what are my core values? And every day, am I not being pressured and rushed by external expectations? Am I truly being driven by what I want?

You know, even yesterday I was like, oh, I did a Spartan race. Oh, I finished top, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like, I spent the entire day obsessed by some type of societal expectations on fitness fucking levels. Who gives a fucking shit if you can do the monkey bars faster than everyone else? And I was literally like, and I was in the car with her and like, did you know that there was 2000 people? And if I had just not paused in this particular obstacle and I could have finished three places higher. And she's like, honey,

Not to be mean, but you've been talking about this for a long time. I could just imagine. Do you want to think about something else? And that moment I realized that we're obsessed and programmed by things that are external to us that in 20 years, no one's going to give a shit. They're meaningless. And I'm deathly afraid that

At the end of my life, if you were to put a pie chart together of all the moments where I was living the life I wanted to versus just being caught up and obsessed in something that was meaningless, that that pie chart would not turn out in my favor. I think that's a lot of people's fear, right? And it's like, but that just goes right back to what I was saying again, that

you have to have that constant reminder. Yeah. Right? Because it's just so easy to fall into the bigger pie chart, you know, of living life in the most meaningless way, you know, where you're just living by what society dictates or what you've personally dictated, you know? Well, I'll share one thing.

So I was in a race yesterday and I've been working out pretty regularly, but I wasn't specifically training for the race like some of my team was. So I'm part of a bigger team and we're really into these obstacle races. So there's a combination of training of cardio, upper body strength, flexibility, like all kinds of stuff. Right.

So, but you know, I enjoy doing these things. I like being part of the team, but I hadn't really specifically trained, but I wanted to show up. I want to show up for myself. I want to show up for the team. And I knew I was, I'm in pretty decent shape so I can get through this. Right. But I hadn't been practicing and putting myself in a position where I could be super duper confident. So I'm doing it and I'm studying some of the learnings from a workshop I

I've been to a couple of workshops. So Kate Hill did a workshop. Kate was on our show. She's a really talented, professional ultramarathon runner. And she was sharing a lot about how to get in the right mindset. And I attended another running workshop a couple of years ago. And it was just like how to get in the right mindset and how to have your best day. And one of the tips that they shared was that have a mantra.

like repeat something to yourself. Like what, how he was saying, it's like, do it for the family. Right. And so mine, so I kind of combined a couple, right. So I knew there were going to be moments where you just don't want to be in the race. Like you want to just fucking go and have a beer. So one of the ones that Kate has is like, just keep going, just keep going.

There's another really famous, like this guy's elite, one of the all-time greats in distance running, Scott Jurek. He says, this is what you came for. This is what you came for, right? So in the race,

I'm just like screaming to myself, right? And I'm like, this is what you came for. This is what you came for. Keep going. Good job. Are you screaming out loud? Yeah. Like literally screaming out loud? Like out loud. Like not like, I'm like Sun Ching Ping. I'm not like, you know, I don't post shit all over my room and post it. This is what you came for. I would be like, I'm not posting. I want some extra hot sauce. I'm not posting like doing my fucking family all over my house. But you know, I mean, I'm not that crazy. This is what I came for. Yeah. And so. Hit me, baby, one more time.

There was a couple of moments where I'm running and like... Backstreet... It's a mental game, right? When you're in these races, it's a mental game. You're pushing through. Like, you know, Justin, you box. Like, when you're pushing yourself to the limit and you want to do that because life is not easy. And when you can put yourself in situations where you can really push yourself hard, it prepares you for the rest of life because not everything is going to go your way, right? But...

But what I'm trying to say is like really the kind of the lesson here is like one is like I'm screaming to myself like this is what you came for. And yeah, I'm proud of everything. But it's like is that what life is about? Like going into a race and then just being like this is what you came for. Keep going. Like because we can get caught up in that making more money, you know, getting a better position and all that stuff. And so while this drive and kind of this perseverance is important, you got to be very careful of how you use it. And I think...

The most important thing is like when you say this is what you came for, you better know what it is that you actually came for. Like what that fucking thing is and not get...

focused on things that don't actually matter like don't let it be empty words too right like actually know what you came know what you came for yeah like i mean i was screaming that and like yeah and help me through the race but like like i need to step back and look at my whole life as a giant race and be like what did i come here for right why am i fucking here what am i coming here for and really have that crystal clarity of like i can be confident that in any moment i

Any part of the day, I'm like, okay, this is what I'm here for. And in that moment, I was here for the race. But that's not why I'm really here in life. That was just one moment. Probably, I'm assuming though, for you, like even if you were to break it down further...

that's probably not, you know, if you were to break down why you're even in the race in the first place, it probably goes back to much larger issues about yourself and your life than just being healthy and just being good at the race. You know what I mean? It's probably driven by some much deeper and more fundamental motivation that started somewhere with you, right? Yeah. Why am I so obsessed? Like, I spent...

the entire day thinking about where I lost time and every obstacle. Well, I think it's really telling when you, when you, you know, recounted that, like you were in the car, you were talking to Ann and she's like, honey, I love you. You did great. But like, you've been talking about the monkey bars for hours. You know what I mean? And it's just like, look, we only have so much time to live on this earth. And even just a few hours of talking about the monkey bars, all of a sudden when you put things into perspective of your own life,

it's like become so trivial, right? Like I think the key word, well, at least for me is a lot of things all of a sudden become so trivial when you have these moments where you're like, wait a minute, there's something bigger. And whether it's being in a different place geographically or being in a different culture and society or just getting out of your head, right? It's this moment of like,

the trivialness of what we have been doing and what can we do going forward that we won't feel so trivial about. Absolutely. And I'll share one last thought. I just want to go back and hopefully we can all think about this and I'll listen to the show again and I hope our listeners will listen to the show. And it's like the one last thing is that

in that moment I was like okay this is what you're here for this is what you're here for

And it was more about like the result. I was using it as a tactic to motivate myself to chase something that might not have been that meaningful. And what's really important, I think now thinking back is that when you say this is what you're here for, what's actually the biggest thing, that big thing should just actually be that moment, just being in that moment. And so like I always talk about mindfulness, um,

and I meditate every day. But what I realize is that my mindfulness itself has just become a routine. It's just something I do. And in that moment, I'm like, I got to get through this. And then I get satisfaction out of checking that box and I'm mindful. But the point of mindfulness is not, it's actually enjoying that moment. So I'm doing it, getting into the race, right? I'm telling myself the right words. This is what you came for, be mindful.

I'm telling myself the right things, but I'm not quite using it properly. Because when you're truly mindful in that moment, that 20 minutes in the morning should be the best 20 minutes of the day. I'm using that 20 minutes of mindfulness to help me get through the rest of the day. I'm using it as a tool, but it's not the tool. It is actually the goal. Wow. Like you're going through the motions of,

but the motions itself have kind of lost meaning to you. Exactly. It's that moment. And so like mindfulness itself can't be the routine. And so we've got to constantly be mindful about being mindful, about being mindful, about being mindful. It's a head fuck. It's a total head fuck. I'm scratching my head as we speak. But honestly, the more conversations I have with you, the more episodes we do, like the more...

I think life is a head fuck in a way, you know what I mean? Because like, not that it has to be complicated because it doesn't necessarily have to be complicated. We often overcomplicate things in our lives. But it's the fact that we don't know that it doesn't need to be as complicated, you know what I mean? And we're always struggling to,

we're almost always struggling against overcomplicating things because our natural default mode is to overcomplicate a lot of things. We find comfort in overcomplicating things because we expect things to be complicated. So when they're not, we question it and we get become suspicious when something, when something's not complicated in life, we get suspicious of this thing and be like, why is this thing not so complicated? It can't be that easy, right? There's no free lunch in life.

If it's too good to be true, that probably is that kind of mentality. And maybe that leads us astray sometimes. You know, it's funny. What you just said was literally my quote that I've used for like 15 years, 20 years of my life.

Way to take credit for all the gems I'm throwing right now. I'm not joking. I have a quote that I just always used to say. I feel like, okay, hold on. Humor is always a good thing. Humor is something that you'll never regret. You know how there's like virtue signaling? I feel like he doesn't do virtue signaling so much as intellectual signaling. Like this show, he's done quite a bit of intellectual signaling, right? Yeah.

I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, maybe, maybe. Honestly, I feel you guys both do a lot of intellectual slash virtual signaling all the time. Yeah. We just fucking steal my storm, man. I was about to share my quote that I like to use. He was riding a wave. You just knocked him right off that wave. He came in with a mantra like, I am Mark Manson, Asian style. Right? Like he literally came in like, hey, I do post-its. Yeah.

I love how you always just shit on Allie. I know. Why? On air. Why? Like me and you, Eric, we have our own thing that's like our own thing. But then I'm always like here spectating whenever you shit on Allie. Why is that? Because he crossed the line. I mean, not in a kind of a...

terrible way but he was just like oh that's something that I do and I've been doing it for 15 years and that's where he like crossed the line for me why is that crossing the line okay no what were you gonna say I did not mean to take anything away from Justin no it's all in good humor it's all in good humor yeah I know I know

So you've been doing it for 15 years? Well, I'm not going to say it now. Then why are you such a mess still? It's like, if you just listen to this one show, you would think this guy was like the host of the show, like the fucking guru of the gurus, right? It was a fucking Dalai Lama over here. Oh, now we're banned. Like this show is censored forever.

No, seriously, what were you going to say, Javi? I'm seriously curious. He's the Howie Loma. He's the Howie Loma. Cut it out. Eric, cut it out. Everyone's always against me. Well, wait, this has gone completely off the rails right now. It has. What were you about to say? I'm genuinely curious in terms of what you were about to say. No, I had a quote that I always kept on my social profile. Okay. That I said that life is simple. We just tend to overcomplicate things.

Oh, really? Yes. Okay. On what, like your Facebook or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I had to remind myself that. And that was my way of reminding myself. I think it's true, right? We do find comfort in the expectation of life, even when the expectation is something terrible, right? But as long as it's consistent with our expectation, we feel at ease, no matter how terrible that expectation is, right? And it's a curious phenomenon, right?

of a human psychology, I guess. I don't know. But anyway, that was pretty profound. That was pretty fun. I think there's a lot of things we can get into coming off of this, but this is our first episode, the three of us back since our trips, since our little break, a little hiatus. It's been a while. And it's good to see you guys again, man. It's good to talk to you guys again. I miss this, honestly. I do too. It's good to see you, Justin. It's good to see you, Howie. Yeah.

That's all I'm going to say. We keep growing. We keep growing. Well, okay, Howie Lama. I'm kidding. Who's Howie Lama? Who's too good? What's up, Howie Lama? Cheers, guys. Cheers. Cheers. All right, guys. That's it for today. We love you. I'm Justin.

And I'm Howie. And I'm Eric. And next to me is the Howie Llama. I beat you to it. He took your weapon away from you. I took your weapon away. He's been disarming us the whole show. He killed himself before you were able to kill him. That's how it works. It's a freestyle rap battle technique. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's what Rabbit did in 8 Mile, right? Well, just like... Okay, hold on. Let me just replay this, right? This is funny to me. I'm not trying to tag you. So Justin says...

Brilliantly. You had some good zingers today. We find comfort in overcomplicating things because we expect life to be complicated. And it was brilliant. And then rather than letting that sit, he's like, oh, you know what? I had that same quote like 15 years ago. You know what's on my Twitter? Yeah, we find comfort in overcomplicating things because we expect life to be complicated. Yeah.

That's how I came across. Because I'm processing things sometimes also from the point of view of just listening to the text. Hold on, did it really come across like that though? No, a little bit. I'm just joking with you. Because in my mind, it did not. Right. I understand. Totally. I totally understand. It's really funny seeing this dynamic play out because you're in...

there's certain aspects of what you're saying right now, Eric, that are true and I agree with. But it's also from like a basis of like you being ultra competitive. So you finding like the competitiveness in what people are saying. You're saying this just to say that you thought of this first, basically. But it wasn't, but it comes across because I'm, yeah, I get it. Everything's a race for you. Everything's the monkey bars for you. No, no, I will say this. It's not that kind of competition.

um it's less competition and more about quality assessment every phrase and statement and sentence that's uttered on the show my mind will rate it like was that like a really great statement or not yeah what the fuck i honestly wish you never told me that because now i'm like self-conscious about everything i say like what what's eric's rating for this but but but can we publish eric's rating system but

Both of you had. It's like the Michelin guide for like Eric's thoughts. Yeah, exactly. So then, yeah. You rate everything we say in your mind? Just subconsciously because I'm like, oh, that was a really great like thought. And I want to learn from that. And if it's not a good one, you're like, oh, that was a terrible one. And if it's not a good one, then I'll just kind of filter it or whatever. Wow. Like you really need to be in the moment, bro. Yeah. Like we talk about this, right? And you talk about this more than anybody. Yeah. It's about being in the moment. Ah.

Like if you're in the moment, like do away with the ratings. Like why? Because just a pure act of rating, you're rating from an external point of view. But I'm not rating in this, but let me clarify. I'm not rating in the sense of just to rate. I'm actually trying to filter all of the, like when great things come out, I'm awed by them and inspired by them. And then the natural rating comes out. The natural rating.

Do you rate, do you have a point system? Is it like out of 10, out of 100? Is it a letter score? No, a lot of it is like, there's a thought that I'd like to articulate. I can't get it out. I don't have the words for it. And then if one of you guys can come up with something that brings meaning to it, because sometimes I get, it's hard for me to get going. When I get going, I get going. But sometimes, you know, like I'm like, you asked me a question. I'm like,

I'm kind of frozen. It's because I don't have the words for it. And so when you guys have the words for it, I'm like, I'll write it down. And that inspires me. I've said this before, but then there's an unconscious rating system because then naturally you're going to be like, here are great comments and here are throwaway comments. Wow. I've honestly never rated anything you guys ever said before. That's funny. Maybe I should start rating everything. Eric has a hot or not system. Exactly. Wow. You rate everything we say.

I wouldn't call it rate. It's a subconscious sort of thing. It's like a filing system. It's like, is that a great comment? Should I file it away? Or was that kind of weird? And then I think I'm pretty empathetic and compassionate. I'm like, okay, fine.

until you shit on me but then the empathy goes no because it's like when you repeat exactly what he said but then you're like oh I thought of that 15 years ago it's on my Twitter then that angle is like the humor you take all the steam away from it right because then I'm also analyzing all the comments in the context of like what if there's a transcript like this and kind of like as a third party objective thing and I'm like that was really funny

because he just said something that I thought was profound and then you just basically said oh actually and then you repeat the same thing and you said it so are the prosecutor remember when we had Steven yeah Steven Yuan

You so are the prosecutor because you're reading things like you're imagining a transcript that's like very like, you know, like related to trials, right? Yeah. You so are the prosecutor, bro. I love it. I love it. I love it. And the politician sometimes. But then I go overboard. Howie's the politician. I'm the preacher. Right. And then I go overboard and then I'm trying to like, you know. All right. Okay. Let's end it for real now. Let's try this for a second time. We love you guys. It's good to be back.

I actually thought about wanting to say we love you guys 10 years ago. He said that 10 years ago. I want to let everybody know that I love you 10 years ago. It's on his Instagram. When you said Dalai Lama, I just lost it. You did lose it. You did lose it. The funniest shit I've ever heard. All right. Cheers, guys. All right. Cheers, guys. Cheers, cheers, cheers. Good day. I love you guys. Love you guys. I truly do. All right. Peace. Peace.

I will see you in my eyes. I will see you in my eyes. I will see you in my eyes.