#79. Zachary de Git: On The Rocks
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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. You can always reach us on our email, WeChat, Instagram. Details are in the description below. And if you've been enjoying this podcast, go ahead, rate and comment on the show.

All right. Our guest today is the Asia Pacific brand ambassador for Monkey 47. Monkey 47 is a brand of gin. So yeah, we drink a lot of gin on this one. Our guest became a very renowned hot shot bartender in Singapore and Melbourne in his younger days. I mean, the guy's only 30 years old, but he started bartending since he was 16. So pretty crazy. He's earned several awards as a bartender and mixologist, including the very prestigious Diageo World Class.

We had a blast on this one talking about his bartending career, his work with Monkey 47. He teaches us how to increase our knowledge of flavor and storytelling, and he gives the world's shortest history lesson on gin. Really, just an excuse for us to drink together and have a good time. I mean, we drink all the time on this show, but this is the first time we really took the time to understand more about what we're drinking and how best to enjoy it. It was

It was such a pleasure getting to sit down with him and see his passion and knowledge. This episode was hosted by Eric and myself, so without further ado, please welcome Zachary Connor DeGitt. I love you little girl, I love you so much. See you living in the dark, we don't want to fight. The sun will see the light, the moon will see the light.

Okay, let's drink first. Cheers. Yeah, I've been drinking. And what are we drinking real quick? Hold on, let's drink it first. Let's enjoy it first. So it is straight gin, so don't go... Oh, this is straight gin. Now I know. I probably should have warned you a little bit before. Ooh, it's very floral. Yeah, so the Monkey 47 as a base is generally quite floral. We use a lot of lavender, like fresh citrus, and...

This one was then redistilled with extra botanicals. So we used a botanical from each distillery that's part of the gin hub. So Beefeater, Plymouth Gin, Kenobi from Japan, and Malfi. Malfi is Italian? Yeah. So they do a few different flavors. I saw that. Their lemon flavor is very, very popular. So we used the lemon peels.

All right, so we're drinking the Monkey 47 gin. This one is very special, though, right? This is not just any normal Monkey 47 bottle of gin. This is the only bottle of this particular gin that exists. In Asia? Yes, definitely. So this was actually only handed out to the staff. So you guys are very lucky today to...

to drink this but I was super excited to drink it and I couldn't think of a better occasion so and also has your name on it it does yes yeah so it's handed out to yeah all the employees of Monkey 47 and the Gin Hub which is part of Pernod Ricard wow so this is super rare so is it distilled differently than their normal yeah it it is a slight difference it takes from a notion that every year we make something called the distillers cut now the distillers cut was essentially

A challenge for my boss when he started making Monkey 47, a certain expert told him there's no way this gin's ever gonna sell. It's too complex, there's way too many botanicals. So he decided, well, I'm gonna make something different. And he started making the Distillers Cup, which makes 4,000 bottles a year. And he actually adds an extra botanical and makes it more complex and more weird.

You know, I've never thought I would actually enjoy gin just straight up. I like my gin and tonics, right? But this is actually really good. It's good. Yeah, just straight. It's actually really good because it has a really, like, strong herbal flavor to it. Yeah, I think any spirit, you really need to, like...

obviously you have your own ritual and the way you drink whiskey or the way you drink vodka, for example. Uh, but if you really want to kind of appreciate it, you need to actually try it neat. Otherwise you're just kind of masking it or dulling the flavors and right. Right. And, um, like the botanicals you said, right? Like, um, you know, people thought that you guys wouldn't be successful because it was too complex. What does that mean? And what is a botanical? That's a great question.

Why are you laughing? Eric used to have another word for botanical. Was that minor Howie's? Another meaning for botanical. Was that minor Howie's? That was you. That was always you. It might be a little, you know. This is for you, Howie. A little too risque. Damn you, Howie. Damn you. You canceled on us. But what were you saying, Zach? So yeah, botanicals are essentially any herbs, roots, spices, flavorings that you add to the spirit and usually do it during maceration.

before distilling it. And your idea is you use the alcohol to extract the oils from those plant-based materials, and then you flavor the neutral spirit that you're working with. So I actually work for Monkey 47. I work as part of the marketing team, and I look after Asia Pacific. So for China, I'm the brand ambassador, so I get to do all the fun stuff, which is go out and drink with people and go to bars and make cocktails for them. And it's literally one of the...

If you work in a bar or if you work in the alcohol industry, it's like the dream job because you don't have to sit behind a computer all day. You get to go out, talk shit with people, fuck around and drink alcohol. It's the best thing in the world. Obviously, you do drink a lot of your own product, so you want to really love the product that you're working with. So I met Alexander, the owner of Monkey 47, back in 2012. So he came to Singapore to find a distributor.

And we met up, he came to the bar I was working in and we ended up doing a little bit of work together and over the years we continued working together. And then eventually he started giving me money for the events and it was nice. That's always a good thing. Yeah. So is your job as glamorous as it sounds? It's pretty taxing.

I think it's fine when you're like 25, but when you start getting older, you wake up in the morning with a very, very heavy head. How old are you now, if I can ask? 31, so that's a young 32. That's just a young guy, still a young buck. Come on. Yeah, but I feel like the alcohol and whatnot has had a profound impact on my...

Okay, so how much do you have to drink? How often do you have to drink? Can you give us some sort of idea on that? Well, you do drink quite regularly, and I think you drink as much as you want to, really. Like...

There's a saying in Pernod Ricard, there's no conviviality in excess. So obviously when you go out, you don't want to be... There's no conviviality in excess. Yeah. So basically, no one likes a fucking drunk. Yeah, no one wants to be friends with the guy that's passed out on the bar. They might want to get a photo with him, but they're not going to hang out with him the next day. I've been that guy. I'm sure we all have. I'm not going to say I'm an angel on this situation. Yeah.

I think we're all guilty of that. I've got like, if I do a search for Justin in my phone, like from, you know, pre-2012. Oh, Eric, you're the one to talk. You're not innocent of this either. No, I know, I know. But I don't have my own photos.

I have your photos. Yeah, because I don't take pictures out of you out of courtesy. Meanwhile, you're like the paparazzi. Fucker. I'm no angel at all. There's definitely photos, videos of me dancing on bar tops and whatnot. But yeah, obviously, you've got to have some respect when you go out. How many times have you been to the emergency room in the last six months? I don't know if I want to answer that. Can we talk about this? Yeah, we can talk about it. I think it's...

Zach's a super fit guy, by the way. Yeah, well, I can tell. But he has been in an emergency room at least twice. Yeah, definitely went twice. Within the same month almost. Like within two weeks from drinking? Yeah. So one time was a complete freak accident. We were out at a work dinner, and then the next place we went to, we wanted to do a couple of market visits, see some partner bars, have a couple of cocktails, support them.

And I went downstairs and my friend was walking up the street and I hadn't seen him in a while. And he's fairly big, broad Scottish guy. And he got really excited and ran up and gave me a big bear hug, but kind of jumped on me at the same time. And I wasn't quite ready for it. And obviously I had a couple of drinks. So my stability was a little shaky.

Fell back and I cracked my head open. I didn't even know where it was. Somewhere around here. Crack your head open? Damn, right on the sidewalk? It was kind of on the corner of the cement. So you got curb stomped. Yeah, it was pretty brutal. It's gross. I can show you the photo later. I don't know if you want to see it. Has the hair grown back yet? Yeah, it did actually. I'm lucky. I'm blessed with the hair.

a very thick mane. Yeah, you've got good hair. Was there a skull fracture or anything like that? No, thankfully. There was a very big gash, which I had to get nine stitches, and that took a while to heal, and then it healed, and then we went to Hangzhou for the Spartan race, and it was great, and I thought, cool, I'm back to normal. Nothing bad could happen now. And that night, we had our friend's 40th birthday, and a few too many gin and tonics and gin and sodas, and that was a couple of small glasses.

That we drank in quick succession. And yeah, I fell over again. And thankfully I hit the other side and I didn't reopen that old wound. You ended up in the emergency again. Yeah, I just healed. Like I left early that night. And then the next morning I woke up and I see like photos of like Ning or a bunch of people and you in the ambulance. Yeah.

Yeah, it was an interesting night. It was a very expensive night, actually. Because I got taken to a hospital that I'm not covered by my insurance for. And they did all the blood work and stuff like that. Then they realized that I wasn't covered there and they took me to another hospital and then...

Luckily, they covered me there, so it was good. Good. Damn. But I'm all healed now, and I'm trying not to make silly decisions like that anymore. Trying to keep up. From the stories, it doesn't sound like they were because of decisions that you made necessarily. It was just kind of like your friend coming up and hugging you. That's just like a freak accident, right? Yeah. That's not something you could have really prevented or planned for. The other one, the second time, I definitely could have drank less. You got a little wild. Yeah.

The CCTV footage is amazing. Not of me falling over, just of the party in general. So, do you drink every day? Not every day. Actually, I try and take like four days off a week. Okay. I used to. When I first started working in a similar role in a whiskey company, I think I was out seven nights a week.

in two, three, four bars a night, just sort of making sure I was doing the rounds and catching up with all the bartenders and trying their cocktails and making sure they're having a fun time with our product. And it gets pretty heavy. And I think I put on like in the two years that I worked there, I went from weighing like

what am i now 70 i think i put on about 17 kilos in eight months just from drinking like you don't really eat that much so it is a slow process but you are drinking quite heavily and you just basically live off a liquid diet so let me ask you because um you know from how i see it like your role really requires you to be like i guess an extrovert like going out socializing talking to people

being in the crowd, mingling, right? Networking, all that stuff. Is that taxing for you at all? Or does that come natural for you? It didn't come natural to me at all. I think when I was in my high school years, I was very much introverted. I didn't really, like, I wasn't outgoing. I couldn't do social speaking really in any way, shape or form. Working behind a bar, you're kind of forced to

You're an entertainer, right? You're not just there to make people drinks. You're there to make sure they have a great night, that they're safe, they're looked after, they do have delicious beverages in front of them. So you do need to be, I guess, naturally charismatic in a way, or you need to know how to host essentially, which I think is the most important part of being a bartender. So I think that comes with the job. But there are days where you kind of just want to be at home watching Netflix by yourself.

So we had Yao Lu on this podcast before, and he was saying the same thing in terms of one of the things that bartenders need, and by being a bartender, you're kind of forced to

an attribute you're forced to acquire is confidence. Because you're really the face of the bar, behind. You're the one interacting with all the guests. So, I mean, is that something... It sounds like that's something you had to force yourself to learn or get over? Or was it... I don't think it came forced in any way. I kind of really accepted it when I started working behind the bar because it was...

It just kind of came naturally eventually. And like, you know, in your subconscious that you need to be entertaining these people. So you just kind of give it a go. Actually, your first few times you're nervous. And then the next, next, like next two years, you just feel comfortable and you, you feel more at home when you're behind the bar. There's something, there's something magical about that three feet of bar that like,

I, my personality will change as soon as I get behind it. And like, um, now you're a brand ambassador and you're involved like with, it sounds like more strategy and marketing and all that stuff. And then I guess, can you, can we rewind a bit and like walk us back to like maybe how you got into the, um, kind of the bar industry. And then it sounds like you were a bartender at one point as well. Like actually, um,

you know, behind the bar and mixing drinks and stuff like that. Is that right? Yeah. I was bartending for probably a good 10 years before I, well, legally, yeah, seven years before I started doing the brand ambassador work. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And unfortunately, where I grew up, it's quite a small town. So working in behind a bar was kind of...

Okay, the police didn't mind too much. What age did you start bartending? Sort of around 16 was when I started bartending. And this was where? This was in Rockhampton, which actually isn't my hometown, but we call it a city. It's like 70,000 people. Where is that, though? So I'm from Australia, but I'm actually from a really remote part called Central Queensland. The city or the town that I'm from is called Biloela, and I grew up just outside near a town called Thangool.

So Thangor, when I lived there, was like 300 people. Okay. So it's part of an area called the Central Valleys. There's also coal mining, agriculture, so a lot of wheat farms, cattle. Well...

Wait, so from what I understand, you're a very accomplished bartender. You won a bunch of awards. Like, was this through, like, bartending competitions? Yeah, I think once you sort of get into cocktail bartending... So I left my hometown. I went down to Brisbane. I started working in cocktail bars because I was studying at the time. I was doing IT, and I hated it, and I just wanted, like, another world to sort of get into. And...

cocktail bartending was that like i just really enjoyed flavors like if i could be anything else other than a bartender i'd be a chef like i always thought if i was to give up the the liquid arts i'd move into pastry i think it's the most fascinating things on earth um so i was fascinated with flavors i moved into brisbane worked at a bunch of cocktail bars and then found myself traveling around australia before i settled in melbourne and australia back in 2008

2009 was blossoming for cocktail bars. So some of the best cocktail bars in the world are still in Melbourne and Sydney and Brisbane. And they have lots of cocktail competitions. So it's quite a competitive market and you really want to prove yourself as a bartender, right? You, you want to, you want to, you want to be like sort of known around town and it kind of demands you a little bit of extra money here and there as well. And you do that through like winning awards, right? Just like a restaurant would, right? Yeah, essentially. Like it,

it does get to a point where you realize that maybe you should just focus on your jobs and like uh you shouldn't be just working on making one cocktail for one competition and neglecting your job unfortunately like i i realized that later on in life well how long does it take to prepare for like a competition like you is it like really like you really have to prepare and train yeah some people uh some people take months to come up with their presentations like people put in like 110 into this and

When you're working in a busy bar and your colleague is trying to enter this cocktail competition, he's not doing his job. You're like, mate, we're like three deep and you're working on your fucking old fashioned variation. Like, I don't care right now. But no, cocktail competitions are amazing. And I think 2008, 2009, 2010, all the way up to the last couple of years, it really helped bartenders get a big stage experience.

where they were sort of respected for their work. Because I think a lot of people still see bartending as like a part-time college job. So what are the details behind like a cocktail or bar competition? Like how do you, like who gets selected to even try to compete? And then what are the rules behind it?

So it's different from competition to competition, but I can tell you about probably the largest one that I entered was Diageo World Class. I actually entered it like three years in a row. The first time was in Melbourne, and then the second time was in Singapore in 2011, and then 2012, and then 2013 I entered again, and 2013...

I won for Singapore, and then I went to the global finals and won a few challenges there. So this is like a global international competition. Is it one of the more prestigious ones? Yeah, it's died down. I think it's a lot quieter now, but it used to be like 50 or 60 countries that would compete in this. Oh, wow. So each country has its own little dynamic, but essentially you enter your own cocktail. The representative, like someone like me, would come around and taste it. They would bring it down to...

10 people that they think are the best cocktails. And then they'll do like a quarter finals and then a semi-finals. And then they'll announce the winner for that year. So the winner will be the representative for Australia for world-class. And then they'll go to the global finals. How much like stress and pressure is it when you're doing these competitions? Because I relate it to like a cooking competition, right? And

I could be just, this could be a really ignorant statement because I don't really know anything about bartending besides being a customer. But for culinary competitions, I mean, there's just so much that goes into it in terms of preparing the food, right? Cooking the food, handling all these different ingredients. But to me, like mixing a drink seems...

It just seems a lot easier than putting together a meal, right? Like a full course meal. So am I just being ignorant to what it takes to what goes into these cocktail competitions and making a cocktail? No, not at all. I think on the surface, yes, it looks like someone's just getting up and preparing a drink. But there is a very, very similar approach to a cocktail competition as there is to a cooking competition. You obviously have your flavors, which is the most basic part.

Flavors is actually the easiest part to get down pat. You've got to work out what medium you're going to, I guess, transport those flavors into the glass. So is it a syrup? Is it an infusion? What is it? Is it a foam? Is it some ridiculous smoke thing over the top that makes it look like it came out of some movie? The presentation is one thing. And you usually have to have a story behind it.

But are you like improvising on the spot? Like sometimes some, some challenges will make you improvise on the spot. Yeah. So when we went to the global finals for world-class, that was a,

It was a really fun thing. We kind of got on a cruise ship in Saint-Tropez and went all the way down to Barcelona. And we stopped off along the way. Oh, wow. That's luxurious. Yeah. I think we got the best year. I think they ran out of budget the next year. And I think they just went to, like, England or something like that. Saint-Tropez is a fucking baller. Yeah. Yeah. So we got to stop off along the way and go to markets and, like,

They would send you in to give you like 20 euros and go buy whatever you can find, bring it back, and that's you. So it's like the cooking show too where they give you a secret ingredient or a surprise ingredient. Yeah, it's like a mystery box sort of thing. So you could go in and buy glassware if you wanted to. You could have all your ingredients on the ship if you wanted and then just go buy decorations. Or you could go buy a beer and just have fun if you really wanted to. But the idea was to bring something back from the land.

So, okay. So you're an accomplished bartender. You're not here, obviously you're not from China, but now, you know, you decide to come to China here, work in the drink industry, hospitality industry, sort of, you know, you work for Monkey 47. Is this a sign? Did you see something about like the China market that really attracted you and appealed to you for you to come here? Or was this like, you just came here for a different reason and decided to...

To get back into it. I've actually never been asked that question. And I've been asked, why did you move to China? But I think the biggest reason was that I was in Singapore for 10 years. And if anyone's ever been to Singapore, like, it's a small country. Like, you can get across it in like 30, 40 minutes in car. So it's not, it's a beautiful city. And I consider it home now. Like, I haven't spent most of my adult life in Singapore. But I really just wanted a bit of a change. And I spoke to my boss. I said, I think China's a great market for us.

I was lucky enough to be in Singapore when the cocktail scene started coming up. So I got to see that whole thing rise and it was super exciting. It was very stimulating for my job. It was very stimulating for my mind. And I think Shanghai has a developed cocktail scene, but it's still up and up. It's like the quality of bars and the caliber of bars here is world class. Like I wouldn't say there's many other cities in the world that could compare to Shanghai. Really? So I think that really excited me. Okay.

the um well i mean there's no doubt that shanghai is on the up and up and the quality here is is world class but i would i would think that the competition in terms of the standards are still probably pretty even throughout the world are you saying you know it's it's kind of shanghai's kind of head and shoulders above the rest right now i wouldn't say above the rest but it has its own unique sort of aspect to it which makes it an interesting city um

London is very much a traditional cocktail city, so is New York, so is Melbourne to an extent. There's something more vibrant and exciting about Shanghai with the mixture of cultures and culture

whatnot coming through here. So I think it just makes it more exciting for me anyway, personally. We've seen it kind of evolve over the years. I mean, we've been, Justin, myself, Howie, we've been in China for a while. And I guess just anecdotally, like the last couple of years, you see more sophisticated offerings coming out and more refined approaches. I mean, like 10 years ago or 10 or 15 years ago, I don't know how

you know, how much access we had to even the whiskeys on the shelf, right? Like if you were to just go out and try to buy a whiskey, even five years ago, I think it was, I can recall like the local markets, like it was difficult. And now you can kind of find it everywhere. When you like assess a market or a city in terms of the caliber of cocktail bars and things like that, like what are the things that you kind of look at? Like what makes...

let's say Shanghai sophisticated or relevant now on the world stage in terms of this stuff? I, I would never ever say that looking at the diversity of spirits that are available is like the first thing that you look at because there's so much more room for creativity when you have a limited option. So going to places like Cambodia, like they have,

barely any spirits whatsoever available, but they have some great bars there, which they offer maybe some dated styles of cocktails, but you can see the creativity that went into it is there. So the passion is there. Because you're like, you're forced to be more creative when you have limited options. And I feel like Shanghai still has a little bit of that. But you do have a lot more access to spirits. Yeah. Point well taken there. Yeah. And I think...

the one angle that I was looking at was like in terms of the diversity of offering shows the size of the customer market more, more than anything, you know, not so much the sophistication on the supply end, but on the demand end. And then you have to think that as people become more sophisticated in their tastes, then that will create a market for people to supply that need.

I completely agree with that. All right, so we're refilling our drinks now. Are we going to start with the soda water now too? Yeah, let's ease it up a little bit. I think if we're going to drink straight gin for the entirety of this. Yeah, I'm a little budged to be honest, but I like it. It is 47%. Is that Why Smokey 47% or is that 47% botanicals? Both actually. So 47% botanicals, a lot of botanicals coming from the Black Forest where it's actually made. But 47% because...

at that alcohol percentage, alcohol is basically a carrier for aromas and flavors, right? And the more you dilute it, the more you dull those flavors. So actually like back in the day, most gins were around 47, 48% because you could smell it, you could taste it. But over time, I think people realize that if you dilute it down, you can get a lot more product and sell a lot more bottles. Monkey 47, yeah.

What are its biggest markets right now, globally? Germany, which we're native to. So we're made in the southwest of Germany in a place called Schwarzwald, which is the Black Forest. Okay. And then America is kicking goals over the last couple of years. So actually, it's funny because we have a 500ml bottle, right? We don't look like... Yeah. It's not a big bottle. Wait, hold on. Did you already pour gin in my cup? No, we put that on top. Okay.

I'm going to drink a little. Go on. I didn't mean to cut you off. No, it's all right. Is that good? Is that enough right there? That's plenty, actually. Okay, okay. None in here either, right? None in there yet, no. Oh, okay. Well, you want to do your own part? Yeah, thanks. I didn't know if you guys had ice yet, so it wasn't. Okay, so you said, okay, Germany is where it's from. Obviously, the biggest market, USA, is big. Yeah, but in the USA, we can't sell 500ml bottles. Why not? It's illegal to sell alcohol in 500ml bottles. So you get three 7.5s, or you get 7.50s, or you get 1Ls. That's a lot.

That's so weird. Why would they make it illegal to sell? You have strange laws over there. I don't know. Is it just America? Just America, yeah. Leave it to the Americans, man. So initially we were only selling 375ml bottles in America and it wasn't

No bar wants to... That's like three martinis. Yeah. In New York, that's like three martinis. That's like a personal little bottle. It's like a travel size. Yeah, you put that in carry-on luggage and then you can fight. So we now do liter bottles in the US and it's taking off extremely well. They've definitely upped their game and I think they're bigger than Germany now, which is great. I see Monkey 47 everywhere now and it seems to be like the cool thing about...

like the cool brand right like every kind of cool hip bar is serving monkey 47 right now um what do you guys think of and i don't

I don't mean to bring up a competitor. No. But, you know, because I see the commercials for it, right? Like Ryan Reynolds, he has his Aviation Gen, right? And, you know, he does these really funny commercials and videos for it. He just does funny stuff in general. I think he's the master at like digital advertising and just... Do you guys see that as a competition at all? Is...

I think we sit in the same realm, like we're ultra-premium craft gin. Aviation's actually been around for many years before Ryan Reynolds bought into it. And it's a great product. I will never, ever...

You can be honest. Come on. Is it really that great? No, it isn't. It is. It's a lot more on the herbaceous side of gins, which isn't my cup of tea. I love the words. Zach's like a wordsmith, right? The herbaceous side. The herbaceous, yeah. As opposed to the botanical side. I prefer botanical. I feel like there's a lot of gardening terms as well. What was that? Herbs are also botanicals. Okay. Yeah.

But they use a lot more like hard spices and stuff like that, which I got a lot of cardamom. What does botanical really mean? Like I kind of, I get it. I get the meaning, the spirit of the word, but it just means. It's a loose term for anything that is agricultural. That's like herbs, roots, spices, flowers. From the ground. So anything that's grown from soil. Yeah. You can use citrus peels. You can use leaves from like blackberry bushes. You can use the.

the tips of like fir trees like the so it's like plants whatever yeah it's it's it's a big spectrum of different botanicals so this is why we have 47 actually yeah um

Well, I think that as an outsider, I feel like the gin market is unique in that it's more of a, to me, it's more of a spirit that kind of goes a little bit under the radar, right? Because when you're talking about whiskeys and vodkas and wines and beers, I mean, it's such a red bloody sea of just competition and all these brands. But to me, as an outsider, I just feel like I couldn't really list off the top of my head that many brands

you know, brands of gin that are like really mainstream. Yeah, exactly on that note, not a lot of mainstream brands. Like 15 years ago, like when I first started working in bars, like there was like three bottles on the back bar. You'd have Gordon's, Beefeater, and maybe a bottle of Tanqueray if you were a fancy bar. Like it was, that was the premium stuff back then. Now there's like 1,300 or 1,400 different gin brands out there.

That's not just maybe not brands, sorry, expressions. So what do you mean by expressions? So there might be like different flavors from different gins. So Malfi, for example, do a lemon flavor, a blood orange flavor. Beefeater have Beefeater Pink now. Where does gin rank in terms of the other spirits that Justin mentioned in terms of popularity? Gin has been the only, I believe,

growing, it's the fastest growing spirit in the last eight years. Consistently, I think at like 30% by volume globally. So,

It used to be that spirit that your grandmother drank, basically. What's number one, though, like in terms of hard spirits? Is it whiskey or is it vodka? It's actually a Korean soju. Soju? Yeah. Wait, wait. In terms of what, though? In terms of like consumption? Consumption. By volume. By sales? By volume. Not by money. By volume. In terms of volume that's sold. Yeah.

So that just means the Koreans are fucking drinking a lot of money. I mean, drinking a lot of fucking soju. Yeah, yeah, definitely. But what about in bars? So forget about restaurants because people are in a bar, not a restaurant. I would say it was vodka, but I think gin is slowly catching up. What about whiskey? Whiskey is big, especially in Asia, but in places like Australia and the US and...

In Europe, it's a lot more vodka and gin drinkers. Well, I think it just needs more branding and more education in terms of like, look, I can, you know, as the lay person, right, a normal person,

Outside of the industry, I mean, there are several vodka cocktails that usually people can name off. There are several cocktails involving whiskey and other hard spirits that people can list off. But when it comes to gin, it's usually just like, okay, well, a gin and tonic. I mean, but what else is there? I could be completely wrong about that, but I'm pretty sure whiskey is very...

on the scale of... Not low, so it's still up there. I'm looking it up. I got my iPad back, Stephen Renn. Woo! Stephen Renn. He's bringing the facts. He didn't let me have it. Giving Stephen Renn a little shout out. He didn't let you have it. You use his iPad on his podcast. Yeah, and you know why? Why? Because you told him not to let me use it. Is your...

Because I wanted you to be in the moment, in the present, in the conversation instead of just complete. I just kept thinking about my iPad. All right. So wait, let's place bets on this. Okay. I think it's soju. It's definitely not malt whiskey. Soju really surprises me. Soju, it's going to be something random. You think so? Yeah, it's going to be something completely random. But we need a credible source on this online, right? Because it can vary from source to source. Right.

Wait, so are we just talking about hard spirits? So we're taking beer out of the mix. Are we taking wine out of the mix? Take beer and wine out of the mix, definitely. Beer and wine, okay. Number one worldwide in terms of volume sold, right? Not net sales. Not net sales, right? Because I think whiskey and brandy would definitely take the... Yeah, because there's higher per volume, price per volume. Oh, man. I don't know. Yeah, and then maybe it could be soju, right? Because...

The Koreans just drink soju like water. Well, they drink it with beer. It's like... Yeah. It's... Like, I have very aggressive business meetings in Korea. You go out for lunch and you have... Yeah, no. The Laobang is just like, yeah, shot. Even in America, soju is extremely popular. You know, I used to... In LA, you know, we go to K-Town and, you know, all the barbecue restaurants, you know, you drink a ton of soju, right? Yeah.

There's a great bar in K-Town called The Walker Inn. I'm not sure if it's still open, but it was opened by the same guys that owned Death & Co. in New York. I might have been there. I forget. I usually was not in a state of mind to remember the names. Fair. Fair, yeah, fair. But now, isn't soju being used in a lot of cocktails now? It's becoming trendy, right, to use soju? Yeah. Soju, sake, like...

Like a lot of Asian spirits. What about Baijiu? Is Baijiu on the rise now in terms of being used in cocktails? Or is it too strong? No, it's definitely... There is a bar in Guangzhou, which is owned by some friends of mine who run a very famous cocktail bar in China called Hope and Sesame. Oh, yeah, yeah. So they have a bar called Sanyo. And it's just near Taihe Hui, like in this new development, which is made to look like old Hong Kong.

And they have a baijiu bar in there. So the one side is like a more easygoing sort of divey bar, like baijiu bar. And then the other side is like more fancy sit down, very well served, like baijiu tastings and cocktails. And it's insane. Like I never appreciated baijiu so much.

Okay, let's go back to this. Have you found something? So let's take bets. You have soju? Soju, gin, vodka. Okay, I can't find it. Soju, vodka, gin. Oh, you're going to do a full list. I was just going to say like just pick one like what we think is the top. I can't find it. Like people don't want to tell us.

Or your searching skills are just terrible. My searching skills after, yeah, being... No, your searching skills after Steven took the iPad away, you've lost it. Yeah, I've lost it. He took your superpower away. Okay, wait. Let's just do, what sells more? Just say biggest selling spirit in the world by volume. Biggest selling spirit in the world by volume. Maybe put alcoholic spirit in there. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, I'd be curious to see what pops up. Wait, so you got, Zach, you got the soju, what? Soju vodka gin. I reckon it's going to be some other random thing. Really? I reckon it'll be like Arak, which is just like a general term for alcohol. Yeah, it might be some like weird other thing that's like really drank in like in Asia or the Middle East or something. I think you're understanding. I think Baijiu might be actually in there. Oh, yes. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah.

I got Baijiu number one for sure. Against Soju and Baijiu. Because if you're dominating the China market, that's a big advantage right there. Oh, yeah. Right? But the problem with Baijiu is it's isolated only to the China market.

No one anywhere else outside China is drinking Baijiu, not in any meaningful way. Maotai did a giant cocktail competition a few years ago in Australia. Yeah, but do you honestly think the citizens of Australia are ordering Baijiu when they go out to the bar? No, not at all. Not at all, right? So who knows? But the consumption, but I would still put Baijiu number one just because of the sheer volume China alone can turn over, right? Of course, yeah. So I have Baijiu number one.

I'm going to put vodka number two. And number three, I'll put soju just because you mentioned soju. I'm going to see if my searching skills are faster than Eric's. If yours are, you're going to put Eric to shame. You're going to embarrass him. I mean, the one thing that Eric was good for was searching things online. And he's failing at that now.

It's just going to be a one-man show. I mean, Howie doesn't even show up. So he's out. I can't fucking find shit on my iPad. I'm out. Justin is just you. Wait, so nothing's popping up? No, it's not that it's not popping up. What's happening is that the results that are coming up are more about the actual brand. So like XYZ brand. But I did find a link that...

Okay, but even by brand, like what kind of spirit is that brand? There's like soju, there's all kinds of stuff. But there's one link that basically hints that Baijiu is the world's best-selling liquor. Are you looking at the Statista? Yeah, that one as well. But not all of them have Baijiu. I think Baijiu could be. It could be. There's one article here. I'm pretty confident Baijiu is. There's one link that says, is the world's best-selling liquor finally cracking Europe? So that's kind of like, you know...

insinuating that by Joe oh it actually says by Joe is the world's most consumed and best-selling spirit there you go so soju I think doesn't fall under the category of spirits in some countries but it is generous soju retains the title world's best-selling spirit brand growing at a healthy 10.6 to 86 million cases yeah that's soju you say yeah but that's like a specific brand I think by Joe is number one I think I think whiskey is definitely up there yeah

Whiskey is definitely up there. I mean, think about how popular whiskey is in even China and Japan and the fact that Japan and Taiwan produce whiskey. Yeah. I think as a general category, yeah. You got to break it up into your American whiskey, your Scotch whiskey, your Japanese whiskey.

- Yeah, because I think whiskey, I wouldn't say it's the most selling by volume, but I think it's the most ubiquitous in terms of every country produces, I can't say every country, but a lot of countries around the world produce their own whiskey. And you can't say that really about Pai Zhou, you can't say that about gin, or you can't say that about vodka. But whether you're an Asian country or Western country, a lot of them have their own kind of whiskey industry, right?

So I don't know. But then also when you go into like airports, right? Like where are they selling the most? It's usually whiskey. It's usually all whiskey. So that's got to say something. I don't know.

I think you're right, but I still think Baijiu definitely takes the cake. Yeah, for sure. Looking at Statista by brand value, Maltai was the highest, and then the next three were all other Baijiu brands. Have you played around with Baijiu in your bartending experience? A little bit, but I wasn't really introduced to it until later. I think I started my first try of Baijiu was like 2013 or something. I had no idea what it was. How did you react to it?

I was... Surprisingly, it was quite nice. Like, I don't mind the higher alcohol stuff, so it's not really that offensive to me, like, that it's 53% or 62%. Like, that's fine. I drink whiskey all the time. That is, like, 53%, 54%. Yeah.

But my first, when I first tried Baijiu, I didn't take to it too well because it wasn't really the alcohol percentage. It was more like the taste, right? It's really... The lingering flavor. The lingering flavor and the nose, right? Like it really, it's like gasoline at first, to me at least. Maybe I wasn't drinking very good Baijiu, right? But at first it just felt like I was like, you know, drinking gasoline. It was that strong, right? That potent, that like...

That aggressive, almost. So here's some stats from the U.S. So that's just going to give us a little bit of insight. But whiskey's... Jack Daniels?

Jack Daniels was number two. Crown Royal was number one. Crown Royal. Koreans love Crown Royal too. But this, I think, is just U.S. This is like from all U.S. supermarkets, drugstores, mass merchandisers, gas stations, et cetera, et cetera. Whiskey sold $2.7 billion for this particular calendar year. And then vodka was $2.1 billion, so less.

And then tequila was about five or 600 million. Tequila. I forgot about tequila. Tequila is massive in the States. Yeah. I spent, I got to spend a month in Mexico and like go around us. Like we're spending some time at distilleries working there. So I went to Jalisco and did the whole tequila for two weeks and then went down to Oaxaca and did mezcal for two weeks. And yeah,

I love that spirit to bets. Like it's, it's one of the most amazing creatures when it comes to alcohol beverages.

- Okay, so how profitable is, because it seems like all these celebrities, right? Like you have Jay-Z doing, and Puff Daddy doing their own vodka brands. You got Ryan Reynolds investing into aviation. Like George Clooney has his own-- - Tequila brand. - Tequila brand, right? - He sold it, I think so. - Oh really? So you have all these like celebrities getting in. From your experience and what you know being in the industry, like how profitable is that? Is it like an extremely profitable industry?

Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to marketing. So with tequila, it's an industry that's, I think, kind of being used in a way. Like it's very popular in the States, right? To buy tequila like years back wasn't that hard. Like to just get neutral tequila from anybody wasn't that hard. So you could just put it in a bottle, put your own label on it, sell it for whatever you want, as long as you had the marketing power behind it, right? So...

Brands like Patron did really, really well out of that. But there's distilleries in Mexico, specifically around Tequila Town, like in the lowlands, that you will go there and they will contract a still for you. So you tell them, I want a tequila. Here's the bottle I want it in. Here's the label I want on it. I want 10,000 nine-liter cases. And then you send it to me and I'll give you the money and then I'll go off and sell it for whatever I want.

So they have like a fixed price, a fixed recipe. It doesn't really change that much. So a lot of these people, Kylie Jenner is making her tequila at Coffredia Distillery. Coffredia makes like 250 brands. So are they all getting the same recipe?

There are ways that you can tweak it. So you could do a longer fermentation period. You could do a different still that they distill in. But how much does that really change it? Oh, a lot. Oh, really a lot. Fermentation is where you start developing the DNA to whatever spirit you're making. The longer your fermentation, the more flavors you create. Shorter your fermentation, it might be less flavorsome, might have...

less fruit notes to it and more sort of, I guess, earthy vegetal notes to it. So it's, there's so many different variables of tequila that if you just tweak one, it'll change the entire product at the end of it. Do you consider like your palate, like one of your key skill, like distinguishing skill sets, like being an ambassador for, you know, really, really high end gin brand? I mean, it sounds like it's a very difficult job to get. So does your palate like kind of figure into it?

So, like, obviously everyone perceives alcohol and flavors differently, right? Like, you might smell a spirit and it might smell like cardboard to you. And to me, it might smell like fucking stewed apples. I don't know. Completely different. I think you kind of start to identify flavors from a young age. And, like, you smell something and it's more of a memory trigger than anything. So if I smell a whiskey or a gin...

and it'll it'll trigger a memory of like like when my mom used to cook like a certain dish or when i used to play out in the wheat fields and like get cuts all over my feet from like the the freshly harvested wheat with my sister or something like that like it's just like a very it's a memory thing for me very personal thing right yeah so it oh that smells very grainy to me because it reminds me of like standing out in the wheat fields like yeah that's what

That is what I associate it with. And I think everyone approaches it very differently. I don't think anyone's exactly... You could sit there and... But the thing is, it's so subjective that if I gave you a neat spirit and told you, this smells like candy apple. And then I kept telling you that, you're eventually like, oh yeah, I can smell that. And then I'll be like, it does not smell like candy apple. Do you think you have a special talent for it though? No, I think I identify it the way...

I identified and I think it's very personal. I think everyone has the talent there. It's just associating it and understanding it in a way that you can understand it. And it's, I hate doing tastings with people. I hate being the one that gets up there and be like, all right, so when you smell it, you should definitely get a lot of lavender and citrus and like, cause you're just putting words into their head. Like let them make up their own mind. Like,

If you start telling them it tastes like this, then they're going to believe it. And then they're going to give it to someone else. Oh, yeah, really? Monkey 47, it tastes like lavender and chamomile. It might to some people. But then they're going to tell someone, oh, yeah, it really tastes like lavender and chamomile. And they're going, no, you're not. No, it doesn't. You're an idiot. They're just mimicking. Yeah. I agree because I've always said this with cooking, right?

And when it comes to things that is just about individual taste, a lot of people want to kind of define things or put things in kind of like a right and wrong, through a right and wrong lens. Well, that's the right way to drink this. That's the right way to cook this. Or that's the right way to eat this or whatever, right? And to me, it's easy to fall into that trap, but-

It's really just about whatever you like, right? There's no... Some things there just really isn't a right and wrong. And when you try to put rules around it, they're really kind of meaningless because at the end of the day, something can be right. But if I prefer this other thing that you deem as wrong, I mean, what does that mean? I mean, I like that thing. I want to eat that. I want to drink that. So you're telling me that it's the wrong... I want to do it my way as well. And that's the thing with whiskey, man. Like, it really...

it really turns people off drinking whiskey is because everyone assumes that you need to have it neat or you need to have it over ice and some people just can't drink 53% alcohol straight. Yeah. And like maybe they want to have it with soda water. Let them have a highball. Yeah. Let them have it with Coca-Cola if they want to. Well, some people get really snobby about it, right? Like the people who think that they really know and they probably do know a lot about it but

A lot of people in all fields. I'm just not talking about whiskey drinkers, but like in all things get like really snobbish about it. And they have like a really like they almost like judge you or look down on you if you don't do it like that way. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, you're putting all that ice in your drink. You know, like you don't know how to drink it. It's like, well, if I prefer ice, then who are you to tell me that I shouldn't be drinking it? And if I'm paying for it, go fuck yourself. Yeah, go fuck yourself. Exactly.

I have a really dear friend, and he kind of got me into this sort of world of brand ambassador role. He used to work for a brand called Monkey's Shoulder. His name is Dean Callen. He actually bartended out in Shanghai for... Well, he was working for, I think, Belvedere Vodka back in 2010 or something like that. Now he's over in London. He was working for Monkey's Shoulder, and he goes, like, if someone ever tells you you can't have Coke with whiskey, turn it back on them and be like...

People are okay to have whiskey in an old-fashioned. What is an old-fashioned? It's like the perfect example of a cocktail. A cocktail, as defined in print in 1806, was a drink consisting of stimulating alcohol, sugar, water, and bitters. So you have your whiskey, you have your water from the ice, you have your bitters from the Angostura, and then you have sugar. So it's very simple. That's what a classic cocktail is, right? Mm-hmm.

He said, what is Coca-Cola? It is water. It is bitters. It's flavored with different like bittering agents and maybe a little bit of citric acid. It's sugar. So what happens when you add that to whiskey? It's basically a disco old fashioned. Fuck it, let them have it with Coke. Like if they want to, if that's how they want to drink like a 14 year old Balvenie, yeah, let them do it.

But are we going to draw a line, right? Because I probably would draw a line if they started using anything that was probably higher than 14 years, maybe. If they would want to do like a 20-something year, like, you know, whiskey and put it with Coke. I mean, that's where it gets a little gray, right? That's something like, oh, I don't know if you should be doing that. But again, to each their own, right? I've seen people take 40-year-old whiskeys and... Okay. 40-year-old whiskeys. Yeah, it's quite a...

So my best friend, Peter, when I moved to Singapore in 2010, he really showed me around the city and made his family kind of my family whilst I was there. And every Chinese New Year, I would spend with him. So I became very close with him. And I think it was like 2010.

2015 or 2016 it was his dad's 60th birthday which is obviously quite a big thing in in I think in Chinese culture like 60th is quite big obviously I didn't have a 60 year old whiskey on hand but I had a 40 year old Glenfiddich and I gave that to him and I said don't drink it tonight like just chill out we'll have it together next time I'm over and he was already like probably 10 or 12 beers deep maybe a couple of whiskeys and

Maybe about 45 minutes passed and I just see them over at the table and they just got Sprite out. Oh, man. But it's his 60th birthday. So obviously I'm not going to walk up and be like, what the hell are you doing, Uncle Peter? God damn it.

But it worried you, right? It concerned you a little bit at first, at least. I think it gave me a bit of a shock because I was like, oh, I wanted to share that with him. But like that bottle was gone in like five minutes. Well, and there's a distinction between like getting a gift of that and being in the moment and happy and celebrating and having that unique experience versus like going and buying it yourself. And like, I would agree with you. Like,

If you buy a 30 or 40-year-old whiskey and you add Coke to it, you don't need to actually because it's not going to taste probably much different than getting a...

you know, 10 or 12 year old. So there's no reason to do it. Right. But on the other hand, for people who can have the palate for it, buying a 30 year old bottle of whiskey, you know, versus a 12 year old, whatever, you will be able to taste those differences. But I think going back to the question of like, not sort of taking other people's word for it. I think the challenge is that

these things are pretty subtle and sophisticated. And the reason people want to, you know, kind of listen to someone else's take on it is because they can't tell the difference. So like going back to one of the reasons I was asking the question was like, we've had all these bottles, um,

But I still haven't really developed a palate for it, unfortunately. Yeah, never serve Eric like a really fine whiskey. I mean, I've had every fucking bottle here. I've given him 30-year-old whiskey, right? Like really nice, really nice stuff. And he drank it. And he was like...

It just tastes like every other whiskey to him. Like, he can't differentiate, you know what I mean? Sounds like a complete waste. What is your approach when you smell a whiskey? Should we have a whiskey and maybe, like... Oh, sure, let's finish this. Or should we do this simultaneously? Should we double fist it? This can be like our palate cleanser in between. A little double fisting going on? I don't mind. Okay, you guys go on. Let me get some cups real quick. Because when it comes to, like, food, I'm pretty opinionated, right? Like, I think people can rely on me for giving good response. Just food or...

Food, yeah. Just food? Yeah. That's funny. You don't even... Like, we don't... Yeah, we only met, like, not that long ago. That's already come across to you? I know. I think it's good to have strong opinions. No, you're not. Cheers. Okay. Now I see how the group views me. Oh, don't be like that. That was just a cheap stab. No, because I actually am like that. So, I'm kind of like, you already fucking picked up on that? After, like...

Like since summertime, you already picked up on it? Fuck. It was August when we first met. August? No, maybe a bit before that. Summer, yeah. It was blazingly hot. Oh my God. That was the most ridiculous thing ever. Yeah. We were doing fake burpees. Yeah. And you didn't know. Oh man. That was a tough day. That was a tough day.

Are you doing any races this year? I will be. I'm probably going to sign up for Ningbo. Okay. I think I'm going to avoid Ningbo and just let my ankle heal. It's still a bit fluffy. You guys are talking about running now? Yeah. We were reminiscing. Yeah. That was a 180. Because in the short time, we've known each other probably a little bit more than half a year, but he's already picked up on some of my idiosyncrasies. Is it a constant struggle or battle between...

kind of doing the job you have in terms of entertaining and drinking quite frequently and often and being a brand ambassador of a gin brand and also kind of getting your exercise in and making sure you're treating your body right and staying healthy? I don't think so. Oh, actually, once you get a routine, I think it's very easy. And it's actually quite transferable.

um when when i go out to oh it comes with a scroll this comes with a scroll you know you know that's fancy when it comes with the scroll yeah but a lot of bartenders are very much into fitness now because they know like the damage that they're doing to the bodies that's what i hear they're doing late nights like they they sleep sometimes three four hours a day on average for a week and then they they go out afterwards they drink shots they they have

maybe six or seven shots over a 10 hour shift and afterwards they have a couple of beers or maybe a glass of wine. So they know that they need to look after the bodies. And I think people like Theo, who you've had on the show before, have been great advocates for driving that healthy hospital lifestyle. Yeah, I hear there's a big movement going on in kind of like the bar and nightlife industry in terms of, you know, making sure like you're staying on top of your health as well.

Just because it's so taxing to work in that industry and you're around people all day and all night. You have late nights and more than likely you're going to be drinking as well. And it's just when you do that time and time again on a daily basis, it's got to be so taxing on you. It's ridiculous. And I think when I was bartending in my younger years, there was no notion of trying to be healthy. We would finish work at 4 or 5 a.m.

drink until 10 a.m., go to sleep for two or three hours, and then go straight back to work at four or five o'clock.

And it was, that's fine when you're 18, 19, 20, like maybe not fine. I'm not saying it's acceptable. No, it's acceptable. It's acceptable. Well, it's survive. You can survive, but it's not sustainable. There's no way that like Justin and I could do that because we physically couldn't do that. At that point, you could survive it because your body, you were young. I didn't get hangovers then. Like it was amazing. Now I have two days for it.

I need to like reset my entire body. Oh, really? Okay. So yeah, you're, because that hit me several years ago when I was young, right? In my teens and twenties, I can get, I can get wasted, you know, blasted. And, you know, I might have a little bit of a hangover the next day, but it wasn't, you know, it'd go away in a few hours. And by that evening I'd be fine. And I'd be ready to go again. Yeah. Now, if I have a big night out,

I am completely useless for the next two days at least. Yeah, completely useless. Same for me. I'm like useless. Mondays are usually like the worst day for me because Sunday is a great day for me to go out and see like bartenders and whatnot because they all have... A lot of them have Sunday off or they have Monday off. So if they don't have Sunday work, I meet up with them then or they finish work on Sunday and I meet them late at night because they don't have to work on Monday. So Mondays are always a nightmare for me. Oh, yeah. And then...

I still feel the effects. And then Wednesday I start feeling like a human again. And then all of a sudden it's the weekend and you're like, Oh God. Well, you go through phases. Cause like, um, when I, when we first met and I just remember getting to know you a little bit and then, um, you know, you would like, I think there were times you'd go out and then we know, cause you know, we would all talk and stuff. Um,

And we would know like that you went out and then the next day you would do like a 10 or 20 K. Right. And I remember talking to you about that. So he's still like, we're beyond that stage. Like we're not like he's 31. Right. So he's still at the stage where, yeah, he'll feel hung over. But if he goes hard the previous night, the next day he can still get up 7am and do a half marathon. Like he, he's still strong enough. So he's still young. He just, but it's not like 19 or 20 where you didn't feel like you were like completely fearless. Yeah.

Yeah, no, not at all. And I still hurt during those kilometers. And afterwards, you still kind of hurt. Give it a few more years, you'll be where we are, where it's just like death. Death for two days. Well, that's why we don't do that anymore. That's why we just drink on the show. Yeah. Well, I'm meant to run 20 tomorrow morning, and I'm actually...

Thinking that's not going to happen. Well, speaking of, let's move on to the next bottle. Are we doing this neat or on the rocks? How do you want to do this? I think we do this neat because it would be interesting to see where Eric's...

You will get nothing from it. You will get nothing from it. No, no, here's the thing, right? It's that I just probably don't know how to process like what I'm experiencing. So I don't need to know if it's this or that. I just need to know the principles behind it. And that's what I'm trying to get at. It's like if everyone has this talent, it's just like I'm tasting it, but I'm tasting in a different way. I just need to be able to understand that better. So you just need to know if you like it or not. That's all. I like them all.

Well, I don't like that. What was that one? That Irish one? What? Which one? Teeling? Teeling?

Oh, yeah. Tealings wasn't so great. I think Irish whiskey is super light, right? It's triple distilled, so it's been distilled so high that it starts to lose the flavor of the grain that it was made from. So you're relying on that oak, which is the barrel, to give it more flavor. All right, Zach, do you want to use that glass? Because I didn't have any other glasses except for this one. I think we give that one to Eric because he needs to practice his nosing. He needs the nosing, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay.

all right so what we're drinking what we're pouring now is the cavalon um ex-bourbon cask right it's um cast strength it's a special edition cavalon it's 56.3 percent alcohol by volume more than half alcohol right so if you want to round up it's 60 alcohol this is strong cavalon obviously is a whiskey um from taiwan won many awards

The green label, is it? Yeah, it's the bourbon cask. So the Soloist range have different cask finishes. So they have a Barrique cask, Oloroso Sherry cask, I think. But that's a Soloist too. Yeah, that's a port cask. This is bourbon. Last time he drank that one, he almost choked on it. It was so strong. Yeah, this is a punchy one.

All right. So before you put your nose in there, like you just burnt your nostril hairs off. Teach them. So this is one of the coolest tricks that anyone ever taught me. And it's not really a trick. It's just a methodology and an approach to smelling anything. Because spirits is very different to wine, right? Okay. So when you smell a wine or you taste a wine, you put your nose right into the glass. What's the average percentage of a wine? Like it's 12, 13. Yeah. Sometimes they get up to 14, 15 for heavy stresses. Low teens. Yeah. So...

is quite volatile and as it goes up your nostrils, especially at high ABVs, it's going to start singeing your nose hairs off. Not like that, but it's going to tickle. Yeah. So he, my friend, he basically said is like, nosing wine is like meeting your best friend on the street. Like you go up, you give him a big hug and you embrace it. You put your nose right into the glass, basically. Is that like,

Approaching any spirits in the glass is like meeting your ex-girlfriend that you cheated on on the street. You've got to be very, very, very delicate about the way that you approach it, right? Okay. So you go in very slowly. You sniff around the edges. Oh, like keep a distance from it first. Yeah, keep a distance, yeah. You've got to test the waters. You're not going straight in for that hug because you know you're going to get bit. I smell it wafting. It's wafting from the glass. Keep a distance.

And then sort of move your way around the glass and then go up and down. And you sort of start to, you get those heavier volatiles and those lighter volatiles. No, no, this is completely changing the game for me. This is the challenge I had before was that I'd always be like, oh, I just smell alcohol. Remember that? I would always say that because like I just went straight in, but I didn't let the subtle part of it. So I let the alcohol part overwhelm me.

Yeah, well, 60 to 70% of your taste comes from your sense of smell. So if you can't smell, pretty much everything tastes like cardboard, right? Have you ever done the sugar test where you put a peg to your nose? Or just eat anything while holding your nose. You can't taste it. When you have a cold. Or you put cinnamon sugar and you can't taste the cinnamon whatsoever. And then as soon as you take the peg off, you're like, wow, what the hell was that? And then you realize, oh shit, that was cinnamon, but I couldn't smell it. Or when you're drinking medicine that you don't like, you hold your nose while you drink it, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

So yeah, just sort of be a bit more delicate. And if you need to, you can blow on the glass just to get rid of those. So the lighter volatiles tend to sort of like fall off very quickly, but they're those really sharp notes that you get when you're smelling. This is totally changing my smelling game because I've always just put my nose right into the glass. Now it's like if you go around the perimeter, keep a distance a few inches from the glass, you get like different notes and tones and strengths and intensities.

Okay, so this is what I never understood. What does it mean to be a dry gin? Is there a wet gin? No. Like I never really understood that.

If we wanted to do this podcast all over again, I could spend an hour and a half just talking about the history of gin. It's absolutely insane. You don't have to do that much on that. We can save that for next time. Let's do the world's quickest history of gin. Yes, please. So 1,400 Dutch people making a spirit very similar to malt whiskey, but flavoring it with juniper berries. There's no gin without juniper berries. So...

Gin is essentially a juniper-flavored spirit. Eventually, some dude from Holland married into the British monarchy, became king of England, and he brought Geneva, which was the grandfather of gin made in Holland, with him. It became like a peasant's drink. It was super cheap to buy. It was more expensive to buy beer than it was to buy gin. It became a pandemic. 1830 comes along. Two gentlemen create a very crazy still, which allowed people to make very clean alcohol.

And previously people were distilling in their backyards very crude spirit, which wasn't done expertly. So they would flavor it with sugar just to mask the bad taste. Usually they didn't cut the methanol out so people would go blind or die. So the term blind drunk comes from that. Or the term mother's ruined is because people would neglect their children to...

There's another weird story I'll tell you later. But in 1830, they invented this machine to make very clean alcohol, essentially vodka. And then they started flavoring this vodka with juniper berries. And it was the birth of London dry gin. So London dry gin is the most common style gin that you'll see out the market. Beefeater, Tanqueray, Gordon, so on and so forth. And

Gin started to become a more affluent spirit. Why the dry part again? Yeah, why can't it just be gin? Why does it have to be dry gin? Because they weren't adding sugars to it. There's actually very...

So before they were making something called Old Tom, like to mask the crudeness of it, they would add like a little dosage of sugar to sort of round it out. Oh, but this new clean making process, they could take the sugar out and so that's called dry. Dry style. Yeah. Previously it would have been sweeter or it could have been flavored. So dry was just a term that they used, but we're using that connotation now. But it doesn't only apply to gin, right? Like with a lot of different drinks, like people can use the term dry to describe it. It's different, different. Yeah, but it's a different...

The reason they called it London Dry was to give it a sort of prestigious title. So if you're drinking gin, I only have the finest London Dry.

Okay, so it's more of a tradition and a symbol now. It doesn't necessarily mean anything right now. In fact, London Dry doesn't need to be made in London. It can be made anywhere in the world. You can make London Dry in Shanghai and call it London Dry. So it was more like a branding term, but they used a common word. It was a symbol of quality. Right. So you started in the bar industry when you said 16? Yeah. So basically...

you know, like in your teens, but then, you know, that decade from 20, you know, your twenties, you were in the bar industry. Yep. And now you're kind of in the beginning of this next decade in your thirties. You know, what do you, what do you think you'll be doing in your thirties, the rest of your thirties versus like your forties? Jesus Christ, mom. Wow. Mama Eric. Well, I'm starting to get into, I guess a little bit of the corporate world right now, which is,

because I'm learning new trades, which I never thought I would get into. I think when you're young and 24 and you're like, bartender for life, you kind of get sick of living paycheck to paycheck after a while. So moving into the corporate world is always a good thing, and I've been doing it now for a while.

Eight years now. When I first started with Monkey 47, my boss always said to me, he was like, if you're ever going to go out there and talk about the brand, you better know how to make it. So he made me work at the distillery for a few weeks. That's a good philosophy to have. Did you spit it in or something? No, no, no, no. You were like peeling the citrus by hand every morning at 7 a.m. So the first job, like this is a day in the distillery. Wake up, 6, get to the distillery, 7 a.m., peel citrus, grapefruits, lemons.

and boxes of fresh citrus. Yep. Weigh out the grapefruits, weigh out the lemons, blend them together, put them in a box, put them to the side. Go weigh out all the dry... 47 things. Well, from there, there's 44 other things, 44 other dried herb roots and spices, including the juniper berries, which is the most important, orris root, the blackberry bramble leaves, spruce tips, so on and so forth. Weigh them out, put them to the side.

go and fill these 60 liter blue tubs with 60 alcohol it comes in at 96 alcohol we water it down to 60 you fill them up 60 liters and put them aside then you bring the botanicals over you put them in there you put them on a pallet and put them to the side for so ever long actually you

I skipped a step then completely. I haven't done it in a while. It's been over a year since I've been back to Germany. So we take the alcohol, we add the lingonberries for two weeks. And then after two weeks, then we add the other, the other botanicals that we've already weighed out. And that goes for 36 hours. And then in that time you have some stuff that you've done the day before. You take that to the still house and you put it in the still. And it's, it's very quick. Everything happens very, very quickly. But, uh,

So it's not aged like whiskey is? We actually rest it, which is actually something a lot of gin companies don't do. So when you distill something, it comes out so sharp. So like I said, it comes in at 96%. We water it down to 60%. We macerate it for two and a half weeks. We distill it. It comes off at like 85% alcohol. You can't drink that. But it's also got a lot of high volatiles, which are really sharp. So we put it in big earthenware containers.

And as that oxygen sort of interacts with it... It mellows down. It mellows out, yeah. A lot of those sharp notes go away. And you could drink it at that point, but it's still 85% alcohol. So maybe not. Have you ever tried 85% alcohol? Oh, yeah. So when I was saying there might be a little bit of me in there, it's like when you sit at the stills, it's not manual. They're Germans, right? So everything is efficient and it's like...

So the first 600 mils of liquid comes off, that's discarded, sold back to the government. The next 25 liters is what we keep. Wait, wait, hold on. I don't want to interrupt you, but what do you mean sold back to the government? They use it for chemicals and stuff. Oh, okay. So basically the first 600 mils, we clean out the condenser from the previous run because it's got a lot of fusel oils and...

So what does the government use it for? Cleaning equipment and stuff like that. Oh. So they, it's like a gasoline. It's like in your car. Okay. Okay. And then the last 20 liters goes back to the government as well. That's the tails. But as you sit there, as it's distilling, so the whole distillation process takes like an hour. But every minute that you put, you just put your finger through it and then taste it. It tastes different every like minute.

It's so insane because each of those botanicals has a different volatility and the evaporation point is different. So at the start, it just tastes like pure lemon peel. And then all of a sudden, it just tastes like really, really bitter orris root or something like that. It's one of the most unique experiences. So I remember the first day I was there and I got yelled at eventually, but I was just sitting there. Because you kept tasting.

So there's like a, well, it's fascinating cause like there's like a recipe and like, you know, earlier in the conversation, Justin was kind of comparing, you know, like cooking and culinary stuff to like mixology. And, but I mean it's, there are a lot of similarities in terms of the process. Yeah. And like this recipe is not a recipe like where you can do overnight. Right. It's, it takes a long period of time. And then like, how do you ensure that the consistency is,

is always the same. Even like the little... The ingredients that you choose and the grapefruits and all that stuff, if that changes, then that taste will change, you know? And so like how do you maintain this for years and years and years? You know, it's crazy. So we test all the... So the biggest thing for us is the fresh fruits that come in. They need to be very much carefully looked at. So we have multiple suppliers. So when the citrus isn't good in Spain, we get it from Mexico. And we have... It has to be organic, organic.

unwaxed grapefruits, lemons when they come in and we test the oil content of it. For the dried ingredients we have a quality check which most bulk suppliers will do anyway. So our juniper berries which mainly come from Croatia, occasionally Tuscany, will go through like a quality check, a QC. The good thing is, so when we macerate which is where we take the alcohol and we add all the botanicals to it, that period that takes like two and a half weeks,

Oh, so that's macerate. That's what we call macerating. That's where we start extracting the flavors from the botanicals themselves. It's like blending. It's like a blender. Not where we do use a hand blender, but you just let it sit in a tub. And basically the alcohol will pull out all those oils. It's like a solvent, right?

And what happens in that period is you build the DNA and the structure of the spirit. In fact, if you fuck up that part, don't even bother distilling. There's no point. Does distilling involve heating? Yes. So 80% of your flavor is developed from maceration.

And so think of it like finding like a raw diamond or that's kind of what maceration is. And then when you distill it, you're cutting that diamond into like a perfect diamond. Right. And it sounds like maceration is kind of like the infusion process, right? Because you're putting stuff together. Essentially, that's what it is. And then distilling is just separating water and alcohol and oils and alcohol. So you heat it up. Alcohol evaporates at 78.3. I think it's 78.1 at the altitude that we distill at.

And water evaporates at like 99.8 where we are and 100 usually. So you heat it up slowly to 100 and the alcohol comes up first. So do all the oils and aromas and flavors. So you're left with a clear spirit on the other side.

It's like cooking, I mean, in some ways, I think. I don't know. No, no. It's a lot of it has to do with kind of culinary methods. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I don't cook, but Justin's actually kind of a pretty good cook. Nice. You're too kind. You're too kind, Eric. No, he went through the same thing. He went to French culinary school, and he worked in top restaurants and stuff like that. Nice. Which restaurants? La-di-da. La-di-da.

Okay, so in... Now the resume comes out. It's like French food. I'm like... He's like, here we go. He goes, I did four seasons at El Bulli and... So after culinary school, I worked in a restaurant called BLD in Beverly Hills. It's down for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I think it's a chain that's still going on now.

um after that i worked a short stint at providence in la which is uh one of the highest end seafood restaurants uh in los angeles nice yeah okay and that's where you moved on to other things or yeah so after that uh i moved here to uh to china to asia and um i went into a

But yeah, so I mean, that whole time from culinary school to working as a line cook in these different restaurants, that probably spanned about four or five years for me. Yeah, nice. Like back on the topic of like bartending being like a taxing job, being a chef, especially like 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago, it was like one of the toughest gigs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's highly glamorized right now, but it's...

It's brutal. It's brutal in there. You know, you'll definitely look for an episode with one of Justin's friends that he went to school with. So she was like, I think a sous chef in some missions. Audrey. Audrey Villegas. Yeah, Villegas. Yeah. I mean, she was like. So she worked for Gordon Ramsay. Yeah. For a long period of time.

Right under him. At her own restaurants. Yeah. That already gives me anxiety just hearing the name. So she talked about being a female, working her way up. And it was just, it was a fascinating episode. Really great episode. Yeah. She's one of my good friends and she is one of the strongest people I know. I mean, she came up in that world and then she came up and made her mark in the New York kitchen world as well for years. Still going on now. Yeah.

did she so she's still in new york now yeah yeah well i think she might move back to california but i mean look if if you can make it in the new york kitchen world

At that time, dude, you can make it anywhere almost. That was the most brutal place to be. She had some good stories on the show too. Kind of kitchen confidential kind of stuff. Yeah. Well, she talked about the spotted pig and Mario Batali. Right, right. All the controversy that happened. And she saw all that firsthand. She saw all that firsthand. Oh, so she was in the thick of it. She was in the cut. She was sitting there with Mario Batali, watching him grope women.

- Shit. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I remember when that came out, like his restaurant in Singapore closed very quickly. - Oh really? - Yeah. Well not closed, they just changed the name of it and he was no longer part of the business. - Well look, from my experience, and I have a brief experience in the industry, but from my experience, if you really wanna work, if you wanna really work the chef's life, like you're just a different breed of person. - Oh yeah. - Like a lot of them are actually kind of like unstable in many ways. There's a lot of drug abuse, there's a lot of alcohol abuse.

I don't know. I'm guessing just from like the stress and toll it takes on you but there's a lot of that going on and Look when I quit when I quit my job at Providence and the head chef at Providence is a Michael Samarusti Who is a very renowned chef? He went on to Iron Chef and beat Beat the what's the Morimoto in Iron Chef America and

So he's like, he's legit, legit. Right. And then so he had hired me in Providence. And the day that I went up to his office to quit and told him I was leaving, he

And it completely took me off guard because I just thought, like, I'm just nobody. I'm like the newest, lowest guy. I'm working garbage. I have like, I'm just like the total rookie in the crew. Right. So I felt like, okay, me leaving, he could care less. Right. He could just replace me in a snap of a finger. So when I told him I was going to quit, his reaction was so volatile that

It took me completely off guard. So I'm in his office. I'm telling him I'm quitting. He's cussing me out at the top of his lungs, literally throwing pots and pans as hard as he could across the room at me. He's throwing books off his shelf at me.

Like he's throwing pans at me, he's screaming at me on top of lungs, he's like "Don't ever fucking tell anybody you've ever worked at this fucking restaurant, you're done here. I'll fucking never have anything to do with you" and just throwing things at me. And I'm like, it's not like I've been working with him for 20 years and I've moved up the ranks, I'm like his right hand person or anything like that. I'm like the rookie in this scene. I don't know shit, right?

And it just completely took me off guard where I was like, whoa, chef, like calm the fuck down. He's like, don't fuck me. Don't tell me to calm the fuck down. Get the fuck out of here. Literally throwing things across the room at me that could actually hurt me. Right. Like, and I just get out of there and I'm like sitting in my car afterwards. I'm like thinking, what the fuck just happened?

Right? Yeah. It's crazy. So these guys are like, they're high tempered. They're high tempered because the environment makes you that way. The environment and the stress makes you that way. I remember a similar situation when I resigned from my like last while job before I went into, I'm not even, I'm not going to say the restaurant or the chef, but I resigned and

tried to do it like over lunch and over a beer like we usually do like saturday beers uh before dinner so keep it friendly right yeah amicable we always do lunch service go for a beer up the street before we go back in for dinner service and i was gonna do it then i just i need a moment with you alone later before we go for beers and he was like just tell me now and i was like i'd rather we do it it's like i insist you tell me now

and like basically forced it out of me i was like i've been offered a role not in another restaurant or bar but like in in in the spirits industry and i'm really looking forward to i think i'm going to take it and the same thing he walked away he threw his glass on the ground not through his glass through something on the ground walked off and he's you

You fucking cunt. Sorry, Eric, for using that word. And then back and forth, back and forth for about 10 minutes. Back and forth? So what were you saying back to him? You were like, you fucking... No, I know in that situation, him and I were good friends, so I know how to react to that. It's just to not feed off it. So he took it personally? Yeah, he took it personally. And for the next week, we didn't really speak. And then three weeks later, it was coming to my...

last week and he actually was like alright let's go for a beer but he was like pretty cold to me before that so he wasn't really talking to me if it was he was telling me to do something it wasn't like could you please do this for me it was

do it now. And I'm like, yes, chef. It's kind of like a family for these guys. Cause like to, to be in that high stress environment, work like six, seven days a week, like fucking crazy hours. Like it's your life. Yeah. And so like, whether or not you saw it like that, probably every person they brought in was like, this guy is going to be a really important person one day. Like they don't just bring in people, you know, it's like fucking, um, Jero dreams of sushi. Um,

right and like that and then like you know you you'd be like in his restaurant 10 years and you wouldn't be able to make eggs like they wouldn't let you do like the most basic shit yeah yeah well um i yeah maybe i took it for granted at the time because um when i had told my other classmates in culinary school when i got that job at providence they were like eyes wide like you got a job at fucking providence like and they were all like super like

like envious of that, I guess. And, and to me, because of how I got the job, I thought like, okay, well I'm just going to be this low level guy in there. And you know, like they don't have to pay me a lot. Like, you know, my salary was very low and it was like, I'm probably just like, you know, the, the, the, the fucking slave there, you know what I mean? I just fucking do the scrap work. Right. And whatever. So I didn't feel like they really valued me at all, but that wasn't my problem. Like my problem was that like,

Like it was just a really it was a pretty toxic environment in the role that I had. But I just didn't understand because like and thinking back on it, maybe they did. They took it a lot more like personal, like you said, Eric, than I anticipated, because the first time I got hired, Chef Samarusti, you know, sat me down, pulled me aside. He's like, look, if you work your butt off here, you know, if you kick ass here.

In a few years, you'll be able to get a job at any fucking restaurant in the world that you choose just because of my name in this restaurant. If you come and you tell them you're so-and-so from this place, that's a hall pass for you anywhere. 99% of the time, they're not bullshitting you. Yeah. But like you said, they're... Well, no. Well, Sommarusti is a big deal. People in LA know what Providence is. I know the restaurant. Oh, do you? Okay. So...

And at that time, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But at the same time, you're like, you're basically paying me minimum wage. So I was like, this is, you know, you're just probably trying to motivate me, which is nice. But like, you know, you don't really mean that, right? Mm-hmm.

You didn't take it as serious, right? You were like, yeah, one day I'm going to fucking have my own podcast. So fuck you. You should send him a link to it. This episode where you brought it up. But the people in my station, right? Because in the beginning I was working at Garmin's station, right? And there was these two other Asians and we were the only Asians in the restaurant, in the kitchen. Yeah.

And the garment station is us three working garment day. And if you don't know, garment day is cold items, right? So a lot of the appetizers, the salads, sometimes even the desserts are from the garment day station. And it was us three and us three are Asians. And I was the newest guy in. And these two other guys, particularly this one guy who I'll never forget, who was the biggest asshole I would have, I have ever met to this day was constantly like going out of his way to sabotage me.

Like, like, overtly, like, sabotage. That happens in high-end kitchens all the time. I didn't know. Literally, just to get, like, a leg up, just to get to the next station. If you want, if you're on larder, if you're on salad, like, if you're on, yeah, gamage, like...

you want to do anything to get to that fucking... You want to move up to entree, right? Or saucier. You want to move up to the stage. You want to be a saucier. You want to be on pans. Yeah. It's so like... And I didn't know because I was like the new rookie. So I felt like who would see me as threatening at all? Like if anything, like I'm the lowest of the low here. You should take it as a compliment, I think. He saw something threatening in you and... I don't know what it was. Every step of the way, he was trying to sabotage me. He was doing things...

and getting like the other veterans in the kitchen to like turn against me and look me in the wrong. It was really weird. The whole thing was super weird. We got in a huge fight in the walk-in. I mean, it's this whole thing. I don't need to go into it, but it was, it was, it was, it was really crazy. That whole experience was really crazy. It taught me a lot. But he got like mad, mad skills. Cause over the years, of course, you know, different holidays and events, you know, he'll bring small group over and,

And fuck, dude. Like, I've been to a lot of great restaurants and, you know, everywhere. And in Shanghai, nothing beats Chef Yang, man. Yeah. Whether it's seafood clam chowder, like his steak, beef Wellington. Eric's my biggest fan. Dude. He's my only fan. Like, no, I'm not your only fan. You're saying that him and Tony, our friend Tony is an amazing chef as well. You guys should have a cook-off.

I don't want to be uncomfortable. Speaking of, before we go to that, I am going to Ultraviolet this next weekend. Oh, shit. I've been... Okay, you got to tell me, have you been there before? Is this your first time? I've been to the building to do a training for the staff before, but I've never been there before. Are you taking your girl there? No, I'm going there. So one of the chefs that I used to work with in Singapore at that same restaurant who got a job at Ultraviolet is leaving back to Singapore. He opened his own restaurant there.

So as is like going away gift, they gave him some seats at the restaurant. Oh, shit, man. For the... Yeah, it's going to be very exciting. Ultraviolet is on my bucket list. It's on my Shanghai bucket list of places to go. It's really just not in my budget usually. No. Not in most people's budget. It's not in anybody's budget. Well, there's a handful of people. Wait, so how much is it per person? I think it depends on the menu. They do UVA, B, and C. So what's like the minimum? I think 4, 4, 4, 4, 4.

No, 4,888, yeah. Like 5,000 RMB per head. I heard it was like 10,000 something per head. They have the one... There's one menu which is like a combination of A, B, and C with the superior wines. And basically, it's free flow, I think. I think it's 8,888. So...

Well, Eric, you're going to treat me to ultraviolet one day. I will. I will. And you'll treat me to some of your great cooking. Nothing beats your shit, though. Oh, wow. And I'll tell you. You hear that, ultraviolet? You hear that, ultraviolet? Hooray. I'm coming for you, ultraviolet. You got nothing on us. Let me just quickly break it down. The reason is.

that when you've got a great chef, but when you're in a commercial environment, you're limited by finances. - Cost. - Cost and what type of ingredients. - Cost and profit. - So when he does it for his family, his friends, his loved ones, he just goes all out. - Oh yeah, I feel the same. - So it's like the net cost, literally it was like the wholesale cost of the bowl of his seafood clam chowder was like 100 US, like the wholesale cost for a single bowl, right? So you know it's legit.

Yeah, no, that's a great example. I don't think UV is going to have much precautions on the cost considering how much they charge. Yeah, but you don't know because they're still commercial. True. 10 seats, it's kind of...

But Zach. That was fun, huh? You're a fucking awesome guy. I mean, there is, I think we just scratched the surface of what to talk to you about because there's a bunch of other things that you actually do that we didn't even mention in this episode. I tend to go off on tangents as well. Well, so do we. So do we. But I mean, to explore like the world of drinks and bartending and gin and Monkey 47, what you do.

I mean, it's fitting because we are The Honest Drink after all. We do drink on every episode we do. But we really don't know shit about spirits, right? We never really knew anything about it. We were just complete amateurs about it. To get someone on the show like you, shed some more light, talk about some fun stuff is always interesting. I mean, you're always welcome back and we have so much more to talk about. Oh, it's my pleasure. Really, I've really had fun this afternoon. Actually, next time I'll come, I want to bring like a mini still. Oh, what? We get like a little hot plate.

A mini still. We can distill our own alcohol on the spot, you mean? We can make our own gin. How about we do that? What the fuck? Wait, we can do that? Yeah, easy. Well, we can get into this much later, and we're going to keep drinking even after the microphones are off, for sure. Oh, yeah, you just poured me another glass, so I'm very happy with that. And then when you come back, when you said we can distill our own gin on the spot, we're definitely doing that. Yeah, I'm not saying it's going to be good, but we can do it. Well, we're definitely doing it. Yeah, yeah.

But anyway, Zach, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. It's my pleasure. Thank you guys so much for having me. Thanks so much for coming on. Nice. All right, guys. We've been talking about it for a bit. I'm Justin. I'm Eric. That was Zach. Hi. This is The Honest Drink. We're drinking Monkey 47 gin and Cavalon. All right, guys. Be good. Be well. Peace. Later. Later. Cheers, guys. The rest of the set will be my ride.

I wish to you my time. I'm looking at the fire.