#80. Vinnie Apicella: Escaping America
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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. You can always reach us on our email, WeChat, Instagram. Details are in the description below. And if you've been enjoying this podcast, go ahead, rate and comment on the show.

All right, today we talk to the author of a book titled Escape from America, an introspective journey from America into China. He is an American writer and educator and runs an education company called Shanghai Edge Consulting. We get into a really great conversation with him today. We talk about why he wrote his book and explore a lot of the topics brought up in its chapters, including why he felt compelled to leave America, what he expected from China. We talk about the tensions and poor understandings between the two countries and

We talk about censorship, hip-hop culture, American elitism, and critical lessons he's learned through observing our respective societies. This was a very fascinating conversation, and we just had an awesome time talking to him. This episode was hosted by Howie and myself, so without further ado, please give it up for Vinny Apicella.

Vinny, it's been a long time coming. Yes. We've been kind of messaging each other for quite a while.

I'm glad you finally were able to make it to Shanghai. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. It feels good to travel a little bit again, you know? It's been a while. Yeah, make sure you talk a little closer to the mic. Oh, sure. Yeah, so how you been, man? I've been doing pretty good, pretty well. You know, business has gone very well over the last year or so. More importantly, things are settling down with COVID, you know, so we're able to get out a little bit and try to get back to some semblance of normalcy.

So how long have you been out here in China? Wow, I've been out here about 10 years. 10 years. Okay, yeah, similar to me. 10 years. And I always feel, you know, I need to sort of add to that that, you know, my Chinese is not what it should be. I really should be able to speak a little bit better than I can. Oh, we feel exactly the same way.

Even us. You'll never have good enough Chinese. That's kind of how we feel right now. Yeah, you know, and it doesn't get any easier the longer or the older that you get. You know, I was telling this with, I was chatting with one of my friends the other day. The first year that I was here, it was, you know, it was so different. You're like a kid in a candy store, right? You're in this new place and you're taking everything in the culture and the language. Yes. I'm studying Chinese. I made friends with my Chinese teacher. Everything's great.

I don't know, after several months, things just sort of hit a brick wall and you got kind of sucked into this vortex and suddenly it's like,

I don't have time to go to Chinese school. I don't have time to study for my MBA. What happened? Excuses, but... Well, it's true. You get stuck in your ways, right? You get stuck in your routine and then you stop kind of growing. And unless you force yourself out of your routine, out of your comfort zone, we almost talked about comfort zones on the show, and breaking out of your comfort zone, you're never really going to grow. And I think that applies to all of us. We'll get kind of stuck and comfortable in a routine. It's true. Right? It's true. It's true.

Well, Vinny, I'm glad you're here. And for people that don't know, I first got connected with you when you released your new book that really caught my eye. And I was excited to kind of get into all the nitty gritty about your new book, why you wrote it, what's the story behind it, all of that good stuff. Sure. And for people that don't know, your book is called Escape from America. Yeah.

Good title. Yeah, it's a good title. Just the title alone. I was like, wow, that's a good title. Thank you. So what's the story behind the title? Let's let's start there. The story behind the title. Yeah, you know, and I appreciate you saying that because sometimes I have my doubts, you know, and I've also read some, you know, less than flattering reviews. But Escape from America is kind of, I don't know, multifaceted, I suppose. You know, on the one hand,

I recall back in the late, I don't know, it was late maybe 2007, 2008 when I was first conceiving of the book. And you know, things were going on in America. The economy was very poor and we had the elections coming up and, you know, things were just in a state of disarray. And at that time you were in America, right? I was still in America. I had visited China several times up to that point. And so I kind of, the tide was turning for me a little bit, you know, where I was thinking about

I want to head to China, spend a little more time there and maybe a little less time in America. Escape from America kind of stemmed from my disillusionment, I suppose, at that time. Again, our economy was struggling, people were losing their jobs. I was struggling at that point. I just kept thinking to myself, I want to get away. I want to kind of start over again, do something different.

Like a clean slate? Yeah, kind of like a clean slate, just reboot. So the whole idea behind Escape from America wasn't necessarily to escape this poisonous regime or something like that, but it was more to escape the conditions that we found ourselves in, the difficulty with the economy. President Obama was...

taking office and there was a lot of conflict there, you know, people were divided, of course. But it's, it's funny. It's funny you say that because you're talking about back then. I'm curious to get from your perspective, if you compare your, your, the picture you painted back then and your, your opinions back then to how America is now during and post Trump,

I mean, do you feel it's gotten worse or better or it's more of the same? Like, you know, because you're talking about your disillusionment. So I'm curious to say, if you stayed and you went through the last, let's say, four or five years in America, would you feel even stronger about that disillusionment? Or do you feel, would you have felt differently? That's a good question. You know, I think...

I purposely distanced myself from a lot of what was going on in America the last several years, partly because I really got immersed in my own work here in China and really just sort of focusing on being here, making ends meet and that kind of justifying my existence. If I was still in America, I would say yes. I would still feel the same way that I did back then, probably more so.

And probably even more so because of Trump, you know, when Trump was in office. And I say this not because I have some great knowledge of all of the things that were going on in the States, but hearing from people that I know, friends, family, reading some of the news clips. And then, of course, you know, on the international front.

You know, how America suddenly was becoming like an unfriendly nation, you know, towards others. We're not participating in this and conflicts with, you know, with China, for example. You know, so I think if I'd stayed in America, there's no question, you know, I would still feel that way even more so. But would you choose to come to China? Maybe you wouldn't choose to come to China at that point. Or do you think you'd make the same decision?

I think I'd make the same decision. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and I can recall even back in 2007, 2008, when I started talking about this, things weren't that bad. Certainly not if we, you know, if we compare them to, you know, what we have today, but

right? I mean, I turn on the news in my hotel, right? You know, as soon as I put on the international news network, bam, you know, there's more, you know, riots, you know, violence, you know, removing our troops from Afghanistan, you know, all of this negativity. Yeah. You know, so I do think that, let me kind of go back a little bit. Yeah. When I think about escape from America, and just to say, you know, it's not so much that I want to

get away from my country as it is to really want to just sort of distance myself and make a change for the better. When I think about it now, if I wanted to go back, I don't know. It might be kind of difficult, you know, with all that's going on.

Well, what I find really interesting about your book and your angle, right, is that, you know, when a lot of people talk about America versus China, whether it's politically, socially, whatever, they kind of talk about the main issues that we see in the news, the headlines and stuff like that. But I feel like you came at it from a very different angle, and it's more about your own personal journey.

As in your title states, your subtitle states, it's more of an introspective look, right? And it's more about your personal development and why you chose to leave a country and your kind of growth pre-China versus post-China. Well, not post-China, but like present China, I guess. You're still here. Yeah.

So can you expand on that kind of narrative a little bit more in terms of like what really motivated you to really want to write a whole book about it? Sure, sure. You know, I think going back to this whole sort of disillusionment with America, right?

I felt like, for me personally, the opportunities to really pursue what I wanted to in life were no longer there. People were struggling just to hold on to their jobs. You know, I had a good job, but there was always this sort of something lurking in the shadows, you know, like, you know, it may be gone tomorrow. And then what am I going to do? So, for me, it was more about opportunity. As I had traveled to China throughout the years,

I could see this sort of difference, you know, forming where China wasn't really this sort of old antique country, if you will, you know, that we might have thought of it. Now this was an emerging nation, you know, and they were doing big things. The economy was growing, right? People were, you know, they're becoming more globalized. And from my travel here, my travel to China, you know, I was seeing these marked differences, whereas it seemed like in the States were stagnating a little bit. So for me,

It was more a matter of, I want to kind of change things up a little bit. You know, so I got a little, I got tired of the routine and I decided the opportunities to do something different, to do something better, pursue a business. You know, for example, if I wanted to open a New York style pizza shop, well, I could do it, right? It was something new. It was something exciting. People were embracing it.

Go try to do that in New York or New Jersey. It's just, you know, who cares? Just to be clear, you're from New York, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Oh, good. Fellow New Yorker. We're all kind of New Yorkers. Well, I'm New Jersey, but you know, same area. Well, I lived in New Jersey for several years before I came out here. East Coast, tri-state area. Represent. You know, and actually I miss it. You know, New Jersey gets a bad rap, let's face it. Oh, for sure it does. Yeah.

But just to go back to your question, I think for me, that was that personal journey to find myself. You know, it was at a point in my life where, you know, I was in my 30s. I wasn't following that route that, you know, most people, you know, aspire towards, you know, get married, have kids, the house and the, you know, the country, whatever it may be. It was more, what do I want to do with my life?

I'm disillusioned with the way things are going right now, but in China, you know, they've just opened the door and they're welcoming of foreigners. They're welcoming of globalization. What can I bring there? And what can I do there that would help me to achieve those goals?

But there's, how would you have known that before coming to China though? You know, because that's a big decision. I read in your book, like you packed up, you didn't, like you weren't on like a trial basis over here where you kind of just like putting one foot in the water. You packed up everything, all your possessions and just completely moved here. Like just like that, cold turkey. Yeah.

I mean, that's a huge decision. I mean, how would you have known about, you know, what China may or may not could have offered you before coming here? Like, what made you think that? Yeah, I think for me, and you know, trust me, a lot of people thought I was crazy at the time. Even more of them think I'm crazy for still being here. But, you know, I had first ventured into China, it was about 2003. And it was for work.

And, you know, at the time, I think my knowledge of China could well have been broadened to knowledge of Asia just based on movies and books and things like that and speaking with, you know, Asian students at my university. But through those visits and being able to sort of see, you know, places like Korea, places like China up close in person, I thought, wow, okay, this is really interesting. I want to get to know more about this.

Subsequently, the business trip in 2000, or the work trip, led to a personal trip the next year. I was mentioning earlier, visiting Beijing for the first time. And I thought, wow, it's really interesting, but I've never seen anything like it. Right here, we've got this sort of, this ancient city with all of these architectural wonders.

Then you've got this modern metropolis on the other side and they both sort of, you know, live in harmony. I'd never seen anything like that. So that's really what started me off. 2004, then 2005. And I started making new connections and new friends and realizing that, you know,

As a 35 or 37 year old guy, whatever I was at the time, maybe I don't have to be worried about getting married and having kids. Maybe I can sort of reboot a little bit. Here are all these people that are welcoming me to come here and pitching these ideas of how we can cooperate and how can we pool together our resources, me as a Westerner, them as a Chinese, and do something for ourselves. Yeah.

And that was really the catalyst. And so for all those years prior to 2011, I started establishing those connections. You know, I think what you just said right there is, I mean, personally speaking, one of the reasons why I've stayed as well. And we've talked about this before because I moved here in 2007, right? And I actually had a round-trip ticket.

So I was ready to go back to New York. I was just here just to test the waters a little bit, see what it's like. And I remember because my mom has been in China, in Shanghai since 98. So I would visit and I would see just like in 2001, 2003 and stuff like that. And I'd be like, yeah, I'm not moving there.

I'm not moving there, right? I wasn't really in the cut. I wasn't really meeting people, right? You wanted to hit it and quit it. Yeah, I was like, hello, what's going on? But in 2005, which is funny you say that, 2005 is the first time I did some work here. And it kind of got me thinking like, oh, this place is kind of cool. It's actually really interesting. And the biggest thing that got me excited was the fact of, it was the energy, right? The energy of the people you meet, right?

right? And the energy that they all not only just, you know, put out in the atmosphere, the surroundings that you're in, but also in the sense of what can we do together, you know, like, you know, this is awesome, you know, you're brilliant this, I'm brilliant that, what can we do, you know, the entrepreneurial spirit, whether or not you maybe, you may or may not do anything with it, but just that feeling is there. And I was living in New York, right? So,

I mean, you have that too there, but it's just different, right? And I think you can probably attest to that as well. It's just a different vibe. It's a different tune, you know? And that's what made me cancel that round trip ticket and stay.

And you've been here ever since. Yeah, but that's what's... I love hearing this because it's bringing me back to that mindset when I was first here and that excitement and the same reason as you. Back in the States and New York, it was sort of just there. It was stagnant. And in terms of jobs and stuff like that, yeah, you're right. There's idea of security. Is there security? Yeah.

It was definitely not an uphill. I mean, it's definitely not on like an upward trend, you know, definitely on a downward trend. And then right before the financial crisis. So you felt that and then you come here and everything's just an upward trend. You know, so it's attractive. Yeah, exactly what you said. And there were those two things at play, you know, and of course, I, you know, being from New York, you know, I mean, I lived in New York, I worked in New York. It's always an exciting place.

But I think, number one, the difference between a developing versus a developed country, right? Or quote unquote developed country, right? You know, again, what are you going to do in New York or even New Jersey that hasn't been done already? But then, like you mentioned, you know, just befriending a lot of the local people. And it blew my perception, right?

you know because i think like a lot of people thought you know before i ever ventured out here you know why are you going to china what's there kind of thing um and you get to find out firsthand yes people are very cordial you know and now they have these opportunities and they want to sync up with you right and make those connections that's why i i'm doing as well as i am with my job right you know overseas schooling um you know so the opportunity

you know, more so than anything else. Like I can talk about Escape from America because it's a catchy title. And yes, I wanted to use that hook a little bit. Some people love it. Some people think, you know, I'm a turncoat or whatever. You know, but we know that going in, right? But it was all about those opportunities. And I couldn't conceive that. And just going back to your earlier point, Justin, I mean, that's what happened for me in those years leading up to 2011.

And slowly, you know, little by little, I started shifting away from the everyday, you know, of being in the States and seeking more of those opportunities in China. And not just with the locals, but even with other foreigners that I would meet. You know, I remember meeting somebody who had an article in the New York Times, living here in Shanghai. I can't remember his name now. But, you know, just making friends with other foreigners thinking, all right,

other people have these ideas too. So that kind of gave me a little bit more of that justification. It wasn't so much, you know, why do you want to leave the States and go there? But it was like, there are other people who've been here longer than me and who are making a go of it. Why don't I do that too?

Well, the energy and the opportunity here when you first arrived seems to be a very common thread that connects a lot of us who grew up in the West and are living here now. You know, a lot of our previous guests that we have had on the show, you know, who are foreigners or expats, they pretty much, it's pretty much the same thing everyone says. It's quite universal. Yeah, it's a universal phenomenon. So it's definitely, you know, there's definitely true in my mind.

But I want to understand, like, before coming here, like, what was your perception of China before you came? Pretty much the same, like, you know, you might hear from other people. You know, it's like, for example, I remember, I don't know, maybe 10 years before I ever came here on that work trip.

I never really thought about China. You know, the only, I guess the only knowledge I had of China was just from local Chinese restaurants. As funny as that sounds. In Chinatown? But yeah, you know, you go to the, you know, and this is true in New Jersey, right? The Chinese restaurants, they're a dime a dozen, you know, every corner. You know, seeing the pictures on the walls. Oh yeah, it's very exotic, very nice, right? And of course we like the food. And then maybe something like Bruce Lee movies, you know, growing up.

You know, and I, you know. So accurate. Yeah. And so, quite frankly, I was uneducated. I didn't know. So it's like, you know, there's a part in my book somewhere in the early going where it's like, you know, if somebody asked me back then, what do you think of China? We'd probably say nothing. I don't think of China, right? It's just another country. Yeah. Yeah.

So for me, I was very limited in my exposure until my university days and then getting the job in the Asian, I can't remember the name of the department, but Asian Studies Department, you know, where I befriended a lot of people from Asia in general. And that sort of started the ball rolling as far as, you know, educating me about what existed out here.

Well, you know, for anyone that's listening, I don't want to come off like, because it can get a little bit repetitive because, you know, we're all like, so like pro-China, oh, China's so great, the energy, the opportunities, blah, blah, blah, right? But I want to understand, I want to get into it because I feel in your book, you really dive into it and break it all down really specifically and analytically. You have a, I think you have a background in writing financial articles for Forbes, right? Yeah.

So a big part of your book, you're really talking about a lot of the economics of it all. And you crunch a lot of numbers. You really paint specific illustrations. And in the beginning part of your book, you're really talking about, you know, why am I leaving America? What is the situation in America? And then so I want to kind of go through this journey with you as you do in your book where...

We're kind of painting a picture of America and then kind of painting the picture of China and then kind of combining these two perspectives and taking away some lessons from it. So like what is it specifically that you saw was going on in America that you just felt like, you know, I want to kind of have a new start here. Like what is it specifically? Because you spend a lot of time in the book talking about the U.S.,

Yeah, there were a lot of things that were going on. Not even, you know, I mentioned about the economy and people losing their jobs, losing their homes, you know, and this, it didn't happen to me, but I knew people, you know, that were affected by this. And, you know, it was depressing.

So the economy was part of it. I know a lot of people, they were, you know, with the transition with the government, you know, I think it was 2008 and the Obama administration was taking over and then there was a lot of disenchantment there. I can't say I was terribly happy about that, you know, at the time without going too far into politics. But, you know, the conditions were tough for me.

there was also this threat of, you know, uh, losing that financial security, you know? Um, so at the time I was fortunate, you know, I didn't lose my job. I, I opted to, you know, step away. Um,

So it wasn't so much that, you know, I was in a condition where, you know, America was going through such, you know, turmoil. Yeah. But more so that was part of it. You know, that just sort of led to my disenchantment. But it was more so when I visualized the future, right? Can I continue on with what I'm doing with the threat of losing jobs and with the threat of, you know, the economy, you know, kind of...

Or should I just cut and run, you know, kind of get while the getting's good before the ax may fall and knowing that, you know, there could be some better opportunities out there. And so that was really the impetus for me. Yeah.

And crunching numbers, I don't remember, but we were struggling. I mean, we were a debtor nation and this hasn't really changed much over the years. Yeah, you talked a lot about the consumer habits and borrowing and spending and borrowing and spending. And you kind of saw the financial crisis, you kind of saw that it was going to happen and couldn't continue this way. There was a reckoning to be had. Yeah.

You know, I want to understand, you know, we don't need to get too political if you don't want to. I'm fine with it, but I want to understand kind of because you touched upon during that time about, you know, Obama going into office and majority of media and media is largely very kind of left, I think, in America right now. It's a more left wing. So they're always very positive on Obama, right?

And I've almost had a very positive image of him as well. But I've actually spoken to, I've met a lot of people that I consider very smart who have been adamantly against Obama and think that he did actually a terrible job. So I want to understand, you know, kind of what was it about the beginnings of the Obama administration or him going into office that kind of gave you a little bit of pause? Or did it give you a pause? Am I just assuming it did? Yeah, you know.

In terms of, I got to admit, you know, in the period leading up to that, you know, we had the, you know, we had the, the debates going on. And I remember very distinctly, you know, I was sitting there with several of my alumni, you know, from the New Jersey branch. Oh, we got to drilling. Don't worry. Don't worry. Hello. It's a renovation in China. It fucking always happens, but go on. All right. I can, you know, so,

I can't say that I had any particular leaning one way or the other. I would have liked to have seen McCain make a little better showing during the debates. And I think that was one thing that disappointed me, you know, particularly after, you know, the last few years. But I can't say honestly that, you know, Obama coming into office really led to me wanting to leave. I didn't feel that strongly about it. To me, it was more about, you know,

all right change right that was the platform we need change right bruce springsteen was singing you know uh you know at his uh campaigns um i didn't but i didn't really care for some of the uh you know some of what they put forward you know the policies yeah the policies uh and i felt like you know i don't think this is gonna help at least not in the short term you know we had the stimulus checks

Um, you know, how we're doing that now too, right? So what? Um, you know, so I can't really say that it was too politically motivated in terms of me packing my bags and leaving. Um,

But it was more the uncertainty that came with it. You know, here's somebody who's unproven. You know, he's, you know, similar to Trump. You know, he's coming here with all these views and change and this and that. And I felt like we weren't making sound decisions. We're electing somebody because, you know, maybe he's different or he's representing something, you know, beyond what we might expect from political leaders versus, you

somebody who does have the background and who does have the experience, McCain. But that really didn't sway my decision much.

a whole lot to be honest. It wasn't a huge factor in it. Not really. Not really. Yeah. All right. Well, you get into a lot of concepts in your book. I mean, you get into a lot of interesting concepts. One of them was about like, do we put American culture on a pedestal, you know, in terms of our views on America? Another one was the kind of freedom versus security thing.

You kind of paint a picture of that. They're kind of tied together in a formula. If you want more freedom, you'll have less security. If you want more security, you're going to have less freedom. There's no way around that. Was that something at all that kind of...

That swayed your decision, I guess. Because you also get into later on the book about cultural cancers. You talk about guns, drugs, and gangs and stuff like that. So I'm thinking this idea of security is kind of a running theme in kind of what you wrote about.

Yeah. So I think, you know, one of the things, and, you know, I'd sound foolish if I said, you know, I wanted to leave America because we have too much freedom, right? But, you know, I wrote that more to, you know, exemplify that, you know, for all of the good, right, we do have freedom of speech, freedom, you know, of press, right? These are good things, right? But there is a danger that lies within those, you know, and I think

We're seeing that quite clearly in these last several months, you know, where history is repeating itself. Because of those freedoms, we're struggling. Let's face it. The coronavirus still exists in America because of those freedoms. The impetus for that goes back to September 11th, 2001.

You know, being a New Yorker, right? You know, living there at the time and witnessing that was just, wow. You know, it was like a movie, right? Actually seeing all of this happen in real time. So that part of the book conjured up memories of, you know...

These freedoms that we had versus security, right? And so now in the wake of 9-11 and in the several years that followed since then, right? How much is too much? How much should government be involved to protect us, right? In terms of the surveillance, in terms of, you know, border control and things like that.

And so that's really what led to that section where it's like, it's great to have these freedoms, right? Nobody's going to argue with that, but understand that with those freedoms do come costs, and we have to also be careful. How far are we willing to go? How far do you feel the government should go? Well, that's a good question. Yeah.

You know, I think too much government is certainly not a good thing, you know, as we've probably seen, you know, here, right? But, you know, at the end of the day, you know, I think you have to take it on a case-by-case basis maybe. You know, like gun control is something that I wrote about in one of the later chapters. You know, there I feel like, you know, the government does need to take a little bit more of a stricter measure, you know, because frankly speaking—

nothing's happening over these last several years, right? People are still getting shot and you know, we're, we're hearing about all these, you know, these issues. But what do you think can be done about gun control? You know, while we're on that topic, because that's, that's almost a subject that fascinates me. Um,

You know, my opinion on it is that, well, in the States, in America, there's no putting the genie back in the bottle. You're not going to get rid of guns. So that's just kind of, that's a kind of a moot point, right? But I guess the subject is about gun control. You know, what could be done there that you feel would really make any sort of positive difference? You know, and you mentioned the genie being out of the bottle. And that's, yeah, that's a big part of, you know,

We can't go back, right? So stricter measures in terms of acquiring the guns, how many people can have guns. Right now, this is state by state, right? Some states you can carry them, some you can't. So I would just say stricter measures across the board in terms of who's eligible to own a gun.

seemingly almost anybody once they're of legal age in certain parts of the country can simply go into a local sporting goods store and you know buy a gun um and I think that's you know part of where we're seeing a lot of the problems look at you know when we see these shootings happening in the news you know observing like who who are these people a lot of them are young people you know borrowing their dad's guns or getting them from somewhere school shootings

So just stricter measures, whatever they may entail, and whether that's increasing the age in order to be eligible for a gun, whether it's to go through training sessions, much like we would as we get our driver's license, holding families of minors responsible. If they get their hands on their parents' guns, the parents should pay the price if something goes awry.

Yeah, I was talking to a friend and they put it in a way that I very much agree with. And I think it's re-educating, or maybe not re-educating, but re-shifting the perspective on what is a right and what is a privilege. In America, you have a right to bear arms. It's a God-given right that every American has.

And well, no, it should be a privilege. Just like driving a car. Driving a car is not a right. You don't get to drive a car just because you want to drive a car. That's right. You have to be qualified to drive a car. You have to go through a test. You got to get a license. There's certain protocols you got to go through, right? Certain requirements you have to meet and it's a privilege. It should be a privilege to own a fire weapon, a firearm. And it shouldn't be a right. But I think...

And this stems to a lot of different, I think, issues in America where everything is perceived as, this is my right. It's a sense of entitlement that I think a lot of us growing up there have.

is this entitlement, this unearned entitlement. They're like, oh, this is my right. I'm supposed to have this. Well, no, you should look at more things as a privilege. You should earn this. This should be earned, right? And I think once we kind of shift that perspective, it kind of changes the conversation a lot on a lot of these issues as well. You know, um,

I know a lot of people in America who are my dear friends, and they're very much pro-guns. And the conversation with them inevitably always gets to, well, guns really aren't the problem. And this is actually a point over there that I actually agree with, is that there is a deeper issue, a deeper cancer, because people aren't killing people

And these mass shootings that are happening aren't happening just because people have access to guns. There's a reason why they want to kill them in the first place. It's not because of the guns. The guns are just a tool, a weapon, right? A means, right?

But there seems to be a deeper and darker issue at play here in society that's festering there that's causing a lot of this violence and unrest and frustration and anger. And we can get into mental health and all these things. There's this whole deeper layer of that.

um that's causing this so you know the people who are very pro-gun a lot of them never really want to shift the conversation to those issues and not necessarily just the tools that they're they happen to be using right right so i don't know i mean yeah well it's more of a selfish thought in that way you know what i mean because it's self-serving but but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a point they don't have a point

Because I agree with that. I take away guns. They'll use something else. They'll use a car. They'll use, you know, they'll find some other means to get people killed if they want to get people killed. Yeah. You know, I can't disagree with that, you know, and you know, when I think about, you know, again, mentioning the genies out of the bottle, right. We can't just, you know, subsequently go around confiscate everyone's guns, say, okay, that's it. Right. They're going to, you know, but you know, I think it does come back to education, right.

Right. Educating people from the ground up, you know, as young people. Yeah. You know, um, yeah.

And then trying to understand, you know, you mentioned about, you know, guns kill people, right? Or sorry, the guns don't kill people, but people, people do it. Well, just for the record, I am not pro-gun. I am pro more gun control. But guns do kill people. I'm just saying that they are just being, that's just a tool. That's not the original cause and motivation for people to kill people. Right. You know, and that's the thing, right? So, you know,

who are we dealing with, right? Who does this kind of thing, you know, goes out and shoots up a school or whatever it is, you know? So again, I think education is a big part of it, you know, getting people to act responsibly because I think a lot of times, you know, people, you know, look, let's face it, we get angry, right? We're stuck in a traffic jam and we're like, you know, you're liable, if you have a gun, my God, what are you going to do? You reach in the glove compartment. Yeah, you know, so it's like, you know,

Sure. A lot of people might have mental instability. Uh, they might snap, you know, for, uh, for things that the rest of us might, you know, be a little bit more patient. Um, so to me, that's really the only answer, you know, is education, right? So when we're dealing with youth, with young people, you know, um,

teaching them the value of being responsible. And like you had mentioned, Justin, you know, earlier, it's a privilege, you know, it's not necessarily a right. And when people stop thinking that way, right, because let's face it, like even the older folks, you know, well, this is my right, you know, freedom, right? I want to protect myself.

You know, well, then you pass that on to the kids and then subsequently they're thinking that way. Yeah. It's never ending too. Yeah. You know, and it becomes like a vicious cycle. Yeah. Right. When I think about, you know, going back to America, right. And, you know, there are times when I'm thinking, I want to learn how to use a gun. Maybe I should get a gun to protect myself because everybody else has one. Yeah.

And that's what happened. And you don't think that way here in China because it's outlawed here. You wouldn't even think about wanting to have a gun here. Yeah. Right. In general, I would say. Yeah.

Yeah, no, it's not even an issue here. And that's an important thing too. And I try to also communicate that with friends and people back home. You know, when you think about like, you know, well, why are you still in China? What's so different? And like, you know, people don't have guns, right? So you may turn on the news and you'll, you know, you'll find something negative, you know, whatever it may be, but it's not going to be about, you know, mass shootings and stuff like that we have to contend with. I mean, I'm sure you have, you must have a lot of, um,

argumentative conversations with friends or family back at home you know you living here for over 10 years right and plus having a book called escape like i'm just curious like what are some of the type of conversations that's a good one with my sister not too long ago um believe it or not i haven't had a whole lot of conversations you know everybody disowned me when i left get out

They don't even want to talk about it. You know, and amazingly enough, yeah, it's almost surprising the fact that I have been out here for so many years and I've had very little communication with back home. Part of that's me. I mean, we get busy, we get wrapped up in our routines, and subsequently we don't even think we're living in another place. This is just our life. It's home. You know, I would say...

You know, going back to my sister a little bit, you know, and I would say, you know, of course, I'm excited, right? I released the book and friends and family, they're going to step forward. Oh, this is wonderful, right? They might even think it sucks, but they're going to tell me it's wonderful, right? Yeah.

Why did you write this in chapter three? Come on, we're not that bad. Why don't you like America anymore? Wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm not saying this. But for the most part, I've had a couple of good conversations with a buddy of mine who actually had been to China. One of the rare friends that I have has actually traveled here. He and his wife adopted a child a few years ago. So, yeah.

We've talked a little bit, you know, about the differences, which he'd seen firsthand for a couple of weeks, you know, where people are very friendly. You know, this is something that comes up again and again. People are cordial, you know, they're very welcoming. We talked a little bit about, you know, crowded, you know, crowded streets and things like that, right? Like New York. Otherwise, yeah.

I really haven't had a whole lot of discourse with people back home about life in China. And again, that's part of my fault because I haven't really kept in touch quite as well. Okay, well, on the other side, when...

Watching media, seeing the conversations happen from far away, not necessarily from direct conversation. But a lot of the conversation is generally negative towards China or even maybe even sometimes Chinese people, the government, obviously. Sure. But living here, we always talk about how it's a little bit, it feels very different for us because we're here.

And sometimes when we see the headlines, we're like, oh, really? You know, I kind of stretched it over there. Do you feel that at all? Yeah.

In terms of media bias. Yeah, media bias. Yeah, there's no question. You know, I remember I was very vocal on LinkedIn. We were talking about this earlier, you know, with a couple of the articles that I wrote and pitching in my comments, you know, about the biased, you know, news media, right? You know, government's got them in their back pockets, right? You know, and that's one of the things that I really wanted to convey with my book too, you know, above all else. So we can talk about politics and the economy and all of that stuff, but...

The crux of the matter was I really wanted to present China and America in such a way that would increase that sort of mutual understanding. Step away from the media and all the political rhetoric, you know, because that's not going to give you the whole truth. It's going to give you a very limited version. You know, and so that's really what I wanted to try to accomplish with this whole introspective journey. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, the media, again, they've got their own agenda. You know, so the... We learned a long time ago, right? You know, don't believe, you know, everything you read out here, right? It's going to be slanted. You know, and it's the same thing. Even we might not expect that in our own country. I think, you know, this has come up again and again. I'll tell you an interesting, you know, little side bit here. It's somewhat related. Somebody who bought my book and did a review...

One of her sort of quips was that, you know, why am I not acknowledging this war between America and China? Why didn't I write about this? How can I ignore, like, you know, capitalism, you know, communism, right, and all these issues? And I thought to myself, wow, she's really got this bent view of China. First of all, is there a war going on between America and China? I don't know. I've never heard of this. You know, so...

And it led me to think people are still really being influenced quite heavily by what I perceive as negative media bias. You know, trying to provoke this dispute that's probably not as big as it's been made out to be by the media. But yes, there is a trade war going on, right? Yeah, that's gone on for quite a long time. You know, there's a huge deficit that we're carrying.

But this whole thing about these communism issues and all that, I mean, that's kind of – that's the fallback that people have been complaining about for several years. So I just found it very, very –

I suppose. And then I came back to my own, you know, my own concept for this book. This is not a politically motivated book. This is not about war. It's not about... So yeah, we do see this going on. And even, you know, even today, it's unfortunate, but there is still... If anything, it's more prominent now. More prominent today than ever. Especially with Trump, when Trump was in office, you know, and again, you know, you know,

They're stoking this fire, right? So we want to get the American people to buy into this and we want to get the Chinese people to buy into this. And again, it's the leadership that's kind of, you know, pulling the strings. And unfortunately, you know, there's going to be a great majority of people that are going to buy into this and they're going to think China's the bad guy and America's the bad guy.

So hopefully what I've tried to do is if I can get people to just stop for a moment and put aside this sort of static that they're getting and think for themselves, they're going to see the real views, the unvarnished, if you will, views from people in the book and just looking at it as people are people.

You know, let's cut out all this other stuff. There's no war going on. Conditions are not as bad as you'd be led to believe in China nor America, but we have to just stop and kind of think for ourselves.

I think a problem of it is also kind of what you said before about your sister and your friends back home. Like there hasn't been that much discourse about China. And I'm not surprised at all because whenever I'm speaking to my friends in America and I'm

We get on this topic of China somehow, and I want to kind of tell them my perspective and my experiences here. And just, you know, maybe I get a little preachy, but, you know, I try to give my spiel, right? Their eyes just glaze over.

And they kind of just drift away. They get so bored. They're not, they just completely tune me out. And then they just find something else that distracts them. And, you know, there's, there's no conversation to be had. Right. So I just feel like there's a huge difference between, you know, I think not every Chinese person, but a lot of Chinese people I talk to. In fact, I think the majority of my own experiences when I talk to them, whenever we get in the subject of the East and the West and America and China, they're,

A lot of Chinese people are very curious about what's happening in America. They're very curious to hear my thoughts as an American, as someone that's grown up there. And they want to know. They want to understand. But in America, I feel like, and I was guilty of this myself growing up there, there's this kind of elitism, right? Like we're the center of the world.

And, you know, if you're not talking about like current events in America or pop culture in America, I don't really care because it's not, that's like junior varsity to me. I want to watch the pros, you know, I want to watch the NBA. I don't want to watch some junior varsity high school team. Right. And that's kind of how they view any other culture and talking about any other country, especially some in their eyes, some quote unquote developing country like China, right.

And they just completely tune out. It's like there is no interest in it because it is not at all relevant or interesting. That's what you get a lot? Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, that's what I get a lot. At least with my friends, they have no interest in it. How about you? Do you feel that?

Yeah, I can't say that I've experienced that too much. You know, when I go back and I'm communicating with friends and family, of course, they're interested, you know, but the fact that nobody's ever come out here to visit, you know, even though I extended the invitation speaks volumes, right? But...

No, but I do agree with you about American elitism. And this is a point that I do reference in the book. You know, where, again, there is that danger, right? When you think that you're on top of the world or that, you know, you've already reached this pinnacle, then you can't do anything wrong, right? So go ahead and carry the gun, right? That's fine, or whatever it may be. You know, and that's something that I wanted to try to emphasize, that, you know,

we have to stop thinking this way, right? Or we're not going to learn, we're not going to grow, we're not going to improve.

With China, yeah, there's been interest. You know, people are interested. Like, is it really like this there? Do people really drink tea or do they, you know, whatever, right? How's the Great Wall? Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I didn't visit the Great Wall yet. Does everyone know Kung Fu there? Is that real? You know, yeah, exactly. And I think one of the things that fascinates people is the differences with the food, you know, where I'll talk about, you know, the authentic Chinese food versus what we get in New York. There's no fortune cookies here. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

But I can't say the reaction has been aloof to a certain extent. It's more like they're interested to hear about what I'm doing. And then when are you coming home? That always tends to follow it up. It's funny because you know what a lot of times I get when I speak to friends. I mean...

They're my friends, so they're not going to say anything too negative. But usually the first thing that comes up if I'm trying to be supportive of the country, it's like, well, what about Xinjiang?

What about the censorship? You know what I mean? The main hot points. The main hot points are just regurgitating, but they don't really know anything about it. So those are always, they get regurgitated. Like, well, I guess if you're still there, economically, I guess it's okay, but come on. But come on. You know what I mean? That's the type of dialogue I have.

But, I mean, going back to what you were saying, Justin, before about some of the topics that were mentioned in the book that goes back to what you were just saying about the American elitism. I mean, we've mentioned in the past how, you know, America exports culture, you know, around the world. And part of that elitism can come from that, you know, in terms of how a lot of other countries...

you know, maybe even take in some of that, uh, culture and, and, and, you know, trying to make it their own, even the way hip hop or like K-pop is so popular here in, in, in China. But I mean, hip hop in particular, because it's from America, you know? Um,

I mean, that's one of the topics that was mentioned. And I would love to talk a little bit about that, you know, just for a second. Yeah, that was a really interesting chapter you had about hip-hop. It kind of caught me by surprise. I'm like, you know, we're talking about Chinese. I'm like, hip-hop? And then you talk about... I mean, you go into it. Like, you talk about hip-hop's negative influence on the people. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, and...

Back to the point you made earlier, though, about the government. Yeah, that is something that's always kind of the fallback when people say, what is it like living in the communist country, right? What about the government? And my response is, hey, you know what? Nobody seems to be suffering for it. They go about their business, right? It's not the picture, but the difference is the picture they have in their mind when you bring up communist countries is,

so dark and gloomy and throwing down the hammer and everyone's oppressed which is so not accurate at all and you would only know that if you actually spent time out here right and it would be just as ridiculous for me to say back to them if they were to bring up

issues with China. I mean, every country has its issues. It's the equivalent of, let's say, local Chinese people being like, oh, you're from America? Does everybody shoot each other when you're walking down the street? Yeah. Are the cops just killing everybody? Are all the Asians just being attacked everywhere? You have to duck and cover everywhere down the street and you're like,

And so everything starts with a kernel of truth. There's a kernel of truth there, but it gets so exaggerated that it no longer depicts the reality of the place you're talking about. Exactly. Right. Communism is a bad word. Right. It's this awful thing. Right. Murder, whatever. You know, don't don't use it. And, you know, common discourse. Right.

So I've had to explain that a little bit, just in terms of it's really not that bad. Now, do I acknowledge the government does some illicit? Yeah, of course, right? Every government does. I'm not excusing it. Do we know all of these things? No, of course. People are kept in the dark. They're wise to this too. So that's something I've had to explain away a little bit. But anyway, Justin, back to your question. Cultural cancers...

I'm somebody, I'm not shy about speaking my mind on certain things that I feel bother me. Or that I would call into question maybe is the better way. And I think the more time that I had spent in China and revealing some of the differences that I'd experienced in America, I felt like

you know, for as much as I love America growing up there and, you know, these wonderful, you know, the ability that we have to be and, you know, do what we want to do.

The shortcomings, you know, those shortcomings that we tend to read about in the news when we come back to the, you know, the mass shootings, drugs, gangs, things like this. Hip hop was kind of an aside that I threw in there. And so I thought, you know, thinking about China as a potential destination for a

extended holidays or living you know my hope is that it doesn't you know this part of the west doesn't transition to a place like china um and i think also part of it was seeing kfc and all these other you know the westernization happening and it just sort of gave me this pause for a moment where it's like you know um i hope they've found a way to deal with this or at least you know

cut off the entry point. Don't let certain conditions exist or with this idea of westernization, you know, try to be selective. I suppose in a certain way. Well, can you be a little more specific in terms of what you mean by not letting certain things in? Like what things are you talking about? You know, I think, you know, being strict, you know, in terms of gang activity.

You know, and I haven't seen this firsthand, but I'd hear things when I would talk to local Chinese people. You know, don't go to this city or that city. You know, there are gangs and foreign gangs and drugs and things like that. I was actually, I remember walking, I guess it was a Nanjing Road several years ago. And these foreigners came up to me and asked me if I wanted to buy drugs. And that kind of, that struck me like, really? You know, here I am, a grown man, you know, and somebody's, you know, and then...

I would just basically hear from people about, yes, people do have guns in certain places and they're bad people and foreigners and that kind of thing. So that's kind of what started the ball rolling for me a little bit where it was like, God, I hope these things that black in our society won't permeate China's society considering how they've opened the door and how things are changing and they're moving forward.

And that's really what the impetus was for me to start putting that section together. I think it was chapter seven. Was there more research done on your end in terms of looking into the foreign gang activity here? Because that's not a subject or something I know a lot about or that I even really heard about really much about. To be honest with you, I didn't do a lot of research. It was more to do with people that I spoke with.

Which actually surprised me, you know. And I thought to do some research, but then I figured, you know, even if I do research on this, where might it lead? You know, kind of going back to you'll find, you know, interesting, the glass is spindling. Yeah, yeah. The wobble.

And even if I did research, where is it going to lead me to? Understanding that certain things are going to be omitted from research. And so if they don't want you to know that gangs exist, you won't know. You won't know. You won't know that guns exist or whatever. So a lot of what that stemmed from was just conversations that I had with people.

Again, there are certain cities or certain areas where this is prevalent. Beijing is a good example. I could take you to the International Shopping Center. You'll see groups of people and you know why they're there. And so, excuse me, that's really what the impetus was. I didn't do a whole lot of research on that.

Well, does this tie into because I think it's the same chapter, you know, going back to the hip hop thing of kind of hip hop culture and your opinions on the effects of hip hop culture on the youth in America growing up?

And you also point to, we all know like the incarceration rates in prison in America are overwhelmingly majority African American. And there's a lot of systemic issues there in terms of disenfranchised communities of color.

Do you attribute some of that, at least some of that to kind of hip, the rise of glamorization and the kind of evolution of hip hop culture from like its innocent beginnings to kind of this kind of like glam, like glamorizing, like, you know, you know, whatever it is like guns and gangs and violence and

whatever you see in the music videos. Right. Disrespecting women, things like that. Yeah. And I think you hit the nail on the head. When this first started out, and it goes back to the late 70s, it started out innocently enough. I mean, this was street music. We're singing about our background. We're singing about, great, wonderful. And personally, I could appreciate it for what it was back then. Even punk music, if you go back into the

My God, you can go to the late 60s if you really want to. The message behind it. Great. You know, that's fine. But yes, the whole glamorization, when this started becoming mainstream, right, and accepted by people who couldn't even begin to understand the plight of poor people or African-Americans, right?

Well, the majority of, you know, kids that would buy, you know, rap albums or hip hop albums were suburban white kids, right? Yeah, suburban white kids. With some dough to spend. You know, and so I think what it evolved into and suddenly, you know, and I don't condone, you know, these groups coming out there and degrading women and singing about guns and whatever. I mean, you know, there's no excuse for that. I mean, even, you know, even if that is what your life looks like and all that, you know, there's also a line that should be drawn.

in terms of responsibility. But then glamorizing this, right? So again, where now you've got kids that have no business really trying to even relate to this stuff, right? This isn't your life, you know? I mean, come on. But more so the record companies, you know? And then suddenly you've got

you know, they're pushing the envelope further and further, right? Well, if NWA can get away with this, then maybe the next group can get away with that, right? How far can we push the envelope? How much is too much? And subsequently, I think glamorizing it and making it into this sort of big, you know, record selling machine really darkened what the original intent was, you know, from groups like the Sugarhill Gang and, you know, maybe Run DMC and those types. Yeah.

So again, it scared me because of what this could evolve into. And suddenly now this is in the mainstream, you turn on the TV and all you hear about is whatever these subjects are that are disrespecting society. And so for me, it was like...

I don't want this to permeate into Chinese society. Because I felt like with what happens with us in America, with all of these kids kind of getting hooked on this stuff, well, again, maybe they're going out and trying to find guns or maybe they're going out and doing drugs or maybe they're... You know what's fascinating? I don't know how... If you know about this, maybe you do. I don't know. But so...

When hip-hop was starting to get big here, because it's big now, right? But when it first started getting big here, there were a bunch of artists here that were making music videos as well. And if you watch some of those music videos... Talking about Chinese artists, right? Chinese. Chinese hip-hop artists. You know, they're walking around with their fake guns and like... Were they? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Dude, I'll dig some up. I'll send them to you.

And I'm not going to name names, but like, you know, certain well-known hip hop artists now. But back then they were like, yeah, like thug. You know what I mean? Thug life. Yeah. And basically, and you have like girls like, you know, dancing and cleavage and stuff like that. And because you're mimicking, right? You're mimicking what you're watching. And this artist in particular has come out and been like, well, I mean, I did come from like a rough town. You know, we were poor. You know what I mean? It's not like...

But maybe not to the extent of the black people in America, but I get it. That's why hip hop... I relate to hip hop. And then... So anyway, with hip hop growing and growing, and you have all these Chinese kids rapping and freestyling and trying to be all hardcore. Yeah. And it's just ridiculous, right? Yeah. And it actually took Chinese censors to come in and be like, all right, we're putting a stop to this.

From now on, with hip hop, there's no more glamorization of violence. There's no more derogatory comments or anything towards women or over-sexualization of women. I mean, there's a lot of these limits that you cannot show on TV now with hip hop, for example. There's a lot of hip hop competitions now.

And if you listen to the lyrics, they're all about the struggle, life, but never about violence against another person, like I'm gonna kill you, none of that. There's talking about my dreams,

positivity, that kind of stuff. And so they literally had to put a stop to it and be like, well, this is getting out of control. Now, if you're going to do hip hop, go ahead, but you have to follow the rules. And even like, you know, I'm doing this music video coming up, right? It's a hip hop artist who is a...

Got a little famous recently. Howie's a director, by the way. I'm a director. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So, the lyrics on this song, because I have to analyze the lyrics and, you know, make a video for it, right? Yeah.

It's so positive. It's great. I would let my kids listen to it. It's almost like a foreign concept. But here's the thing. So here's the line, right? So with that being established, how China has been dealing with hip hop here. And when I say China, I mean like censorship, the government being like, okay, we have to control it. I mean, that's how it is here.

you can argue both sides. You can argue both sides. It's a very polarizing thing. You know, you can argue both sides, honestly, because on one side, uh, not being black, uh, I will try my best to, to relate and be like, well, you, our culture is our culture. And that is the root of hip hop. And, you know, the root was to be able to talk about the life we live as, you know, as a black person, quote unquote, right. Um,

And then you go over there and then you're basically taking what we're doing and washing it down and appropriating for your own good. Yeah, cultural appropriation. Right, right. And so, fuck that shit. I don't care how you're doing it. That's wrong. Right? For example, that could be one perspective. And then you have another perspective and be like, well, it's music.

It's universal, everyone has music, just different styles of music. Rock and roll was spread all over the world, jazz, et cetera. So with that being said, yeah, well China has taken hip hop as well, but it's basically the PG version of it. Right. Is that bad? Yeah, and that kind of underscores my point.

Is it bad? I think there's, especially in today's world, and again with how things have advanced, now you've got people traveling from all parts of the world and trying to assimilate together and it can be difficult. So I think in terms of hip hop, the message, what is the message that we're sending to the kids? Do we have that responsibility?

to censor some of these artists in order to preserve, you know, the integrity of these kids growing up and maybe not choosing the wrong path. You know, so I would be a proponent of that, you know, absolutely.

Ask me this when I was 16? No. Put warning labels on tapes. We had cassettes back then, right? Well, the warning labels actually boosted sales. On parental advisory. I remember when that first started coming out. Yeah. Right? And the first thing we're thinking of, oh, that's great. Right? I want all of the albums that have these stickers on them. Right? Of course. Yeah.

But even then, I didn't, you know, I thought it was, yeah, I was 16 years old. I thought, yeah, this is funny, right? All right, maybe they should do that. Why not? But going back to hip hop, and again, it's not, you know, to malign any particular, you know, race of people or class of people, but...

More so what it's evolved into and glamorizing this stuff where you've got Chinese kids who are, you know, some of these kids are like little emperors and they're talking about like how hard their life is. Now, if left unsupervised, you know, where might this lead, right? So, and I think there's a fallout, you know, and that's really what scared me, you know, to want to include this in the first place. There's a fallout.

you know, with this association of hip hop, where it came from, but also the kind of behavior that it exudes. I think we see this again and again. There's a commonality there. You talk about like taking the good with the bad, right? And if you're of the opinion that there is no such thing as too much freedom, then that means you always have to take the good with the bad. And, you know, like you said, there's always going to be fallout, right?

um you know the question we you posed in the beginning of this podcast was like how much freedom is too much freedom right like sometimes there needs to be a little bit of direction a little bit of control right you can't just like raising a kid you know i mean you're not just gonna let them do every freaking thing they want i mean you're gonna have to guide them somehow there are groups of people out there that don't believe that but sure

Yeah.

I'm of the opinion that, look, America can use some responsible censorship in their society. I think there's too much bullshit going on there, right? There's too much fucking just dumb bullshit going on. And everywhere, really, globally. But, you know, we're talking about America.

I think, but the key word is responsible. Like how, who is in control of this censorship and how is it done? How is it executed? And how is it decided? That's the tricky part, right? That is the real tricky part in terms of how you balance that equation. And it's a really hard answer or question to answer. But if we look at China, I think we can point to instances where maybe China was a little bit too heavy handed.

But then for the most part, you look at the direction society is going in. You look at the health of the economy and society and our safety here. And as, at least from my individual personal perspective, you're kind of grateful for a lot of the luxuries you're able to enjoy here. And for a lot of maybe like the Western audience that's never been here, that is...

a very kind of counterintuitive thing to say. What do you mean? You can enjoy a lot of luxuries and freedoms here. To them, that's polar opposite to what they think is the situation. That's absolutely true. Again, you can't really know that until you've been here and you've experienced it. I can communicate with them about this all the time, but it's still going to come back to, it's still a communist country. Yeah.

Right. You can't get out of that brainwashing. And it is brainwashing. It's brainwashing. Right. I mean, people, you know, people complain, you know, I'm, you know, I'm connected with a lot of, you know, foreign expat groups, you know, through social media.

and complaints about, oh, we can't access this video channel. You need a VPN, whatever. That should be our biggest issue, right? Yeah. If getting a VPN was your biggest issue, then you're living in a pretty good place. Yeah. If you're spending like $10 a month or $10 a year sometimes for VPN services...

I mean, and you can get it pretty easy. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's not a, you know, it's not a big thing. But, you know, the idea of, you know, censorship, how much is too much, right? I mean, you know, looking back, I have no idea, no qualms about putting stickers on, you know, record albums, right? Parents should be aware of what their kids are doing. And I think if we go back to, you know, how much is too much, right?

You have to, I don't say arbitrarily, but you have to draw the line in terms of what's, you know, just plain decency, right? Understanding that our kids are impressionable. They're not going to grow. They're not going to listen to their parents. They're going to listen to their, you know, their favorite movie stars or their favorite rock stars or hip hop or whatever it is. They're going to want to emulate them, right? So I think it comes back to the artist. It comes back to the record company.

The record companies have a responsibility. And perhaps the government does need to tighten the reins a little bit and say, hey, you can't do this. People can enjoy the music and people, you could express yourself in plenty of ways, but you don't need to take it to this extreme. Especially in our day and age where consumption is easily accessible online.

Yeah. To everybody. Absolutely. I mean, I'm not like, you know, I'm not going to side with the Chinese government and say, you know, ban Metallica from playing here or don't play this song or whatever. Right. I think that's a little too much. But when it comes to, you know, again, portraying this sort of hard image, you know, of a thug life, you know, or gangster. Yeah.

you know, again, degrading women, whatever it may be. And I'm still seeing videos of this, right? On YouTube, right? The videos pop up and- It's normalized. Yeah. It's normalized. You know, so you get a little kid that sees this, right? And come on, we can't control everything that they're, what's that going to do to them? You know? And so to me, that's where this whole idea of, call it selective censorship maybe, but there does have to be that line drawn. And I think-

You know, hip hop is something that has that potential, you know, to really be, to have disastrous consequences on the youth if it's not tempered a little bit more. I think one of the greatest American myths is that there is no censorship in America.

One of our co-hosts, another, we have three, there's three of us. He's not here today, but one of our co-hosts, Eric, he brought this up once and I thought it was really well put. And it's the idea of explicit censorship versus implicit censorship. So explicit censorship would be like China.

You have sensors here in China that kind of decide what kind of content is suitable and what is not. It's like out in the clear. Everybody can see it and know it and understand it. Yeah, there's like a centralized censoring board, right? And then there's certain guidelines and certain rules that is known to everybody. It's fully transparent. Everybody here in China knows where the lines are drawn and what lines you cannot cross. It's super clear here, right? Yeah.

Okay, so yeah, that's censorship for sure. But there is, make no mistake about it, there is censorship in America, but it's implicit censorship. It's mob censorship, right? So,

It's about censoring your own thoughts because of fear or repercussions due to your, maybe your image, the backlash from the public or your peers, right, in general. And just as an example of that, you know, like it wasn't too long ago, if you were pro-Trump at all,

Like, you, in certain parts of the country, like, especially probably in New York, if you were wearing a MAGA hat around, like, that would, you would have issues. Get ready to have some brawls. You would have issues. So people, so there were a lot of Trump supporters living in those areas that would be fearful of expressing their pro-Trump ideals, right? So what is that? That's censorship. That's implicit censorship because you're being censored by society telling you,

You can't do something. And oftentimes, the repercussions in those situations will be far worse than what China would do to you. The biggest thing, for example, this podcast, if we said something that was too sensitive, let's say about the government on this podcast, worst thing that's going to happen to it is they're going to take this episode off. I won't be able to publish this episode. That's it. Okay. But what happens if you were to say something that wasn't so politically correct in America?

You can lose your job, your reputation destroyed, you lose your friends, right? Your community. All these things, which I would argue are far more worse of an impact on your livelihood than not having this episode published. There's no question. You might even end up on the evening news. Oh, yeah. You're going to be featured. So one of the greatest American myths is that there is no censorship in America. There is.

And it's rampant and wild and unchecked. And that's the difference. At least, you know, and before anyone goes off of here, it goes just again. So super pro China. China can't do anything wrong. No, there's plenty of things that I would take issue with here as well. Every country, every place you go.

But I think the conversation and the perspective has been so unbalanced and one-sided that I harp on a lot of the American kind of double standards and hypocrisy a lot because I feel like not enough people talk about that. And you have to open up your eyes. Before you go attacking China for anything, look internally into your own society and realize the truth's

of the world you're living in there. And oftentimes when people complain about censorship in China, they don't realize that they're living in a society that also has censorship. And oftentimes the fallout from that is far worse than what you would receive here.

That's just what I'm trying to, that's the point I'm trying to make. I agree with you 100%. Preach it to the choir. And again, it kind of comes back to that whole elitist attitude. We can't do anything wrong, right? And so we're not thinking about our shortcomings, but where others are concerned, oh, absolutely. Implied censorship. And this is something that's going to, again, as you mentioned, it's unchecked.

And especially now, right, considering the kind of nation that America is, we're, you know, assimilating all of these people of all these different backgrounds. It's a wonderful thing. But it's not an easy thing to manage, as we're seeing, right? So you have to be careful. You're exactly right. You know, you have to be careful. You don't want to offend your neighbor, right? So, you know, you have to censor yourself. The fact that you have to hide your political view is, you know, that's crazy, right? But that's the reality now.

And just to kind of come back to, I won't harp on the whole, what was it, chapter seven, cancers, but this is really what I wanted to get across.

with my criticisms of America, but also speaking with people, fellow Chinese folks who've lived in America and have very, very well-shaped views of the pros and the cons. And that's one of the things that we touch on is, do we deserve to be on a pedestal? Why are we an elitist country? And what's to be gained by this? And how can we learn from a country like China?

or other countries that are still developing? Should they aspire to be like this? Or have they found their own combination or path that might actually yield better results?

So it's a tough thing. - Well, I wanna get onto one thing that you just said there, but before I do, real quickly, I wanna ask, when you were writing, I think chapter seven, as you said, and you were talking about the negative influence of hip hop culture, did it give you pause at all to kind of write that chapter in the beginning, just purely being of the complexion you are,

And kind of... Controversial and kind of criticizing hip hop culture. You know, in the politically correct world that we're living in, like, did that kind of... Like, did that kind of give you pause in terms of the optics of that at all? A little bit. Yeah. You know, and again, because, you know, as a writer, you know, and you...

You have to be responsible going into this. Who are my readers? I don't want to step on anyone's toes intentionally. So yeah, it gave me a little bit of pause. A lot of what I wrote, I thought very, very carefully. And then even in my subsequent edits, do I want to leave this in there or should I pull it? But yeah, I didn't want to come across as being racist or discriminatory. Yeah.

And I think, you know, I don't feel that I am, you know, whereas I mentioned before, I want to be perfectly honest, you know, I mean, this is how I feel. This is why I feel this way. Yeah. But don't just take my word for it. Look at the evidence. The evidence is pretty clear, right? You put on the news, you put on the video channel, you're going to see this, right? And who's getting affected by this? Well, it's not the middle-aged parents and all that. It's the little kids, you know? And so that's what really, you know, I felt...

discouraged or disillusioned that, you know, this has had such a negative effect on our society in America that I don't want this to, again, permeate somewhere else where, you know, they haven't any real prior knowledge of this. Of course, now we found out that they do. But, you know, so I guess if I do come across as being a little bit racist or a little bit discriminatory, it's with the right intention.

It's with the right intent. I don't think you come off as racist at all. I mean, I think initially when I saw like the first few sentences of that chapter, I was like, okay, where is he going with this? I was like, I questioned it a little bit, but as you read it and you make your argument, I don't think it's racist at all. I think there is a lot of evidence for it. I mean, just for the record, I'm a huge hip hop fan.

But, you know, you can't deny the effects it has, whether it be some positive effects or definitely some negative effects, too, that you do see. Going back to kind of where we just left off, though, in terms of you talking about

Maybe some lessons or things, takeaways from China here that maybe America should learn from. Do you feel that's possible, though? Do you feel that there are lessons or things here that America can learn from simply because –

You know, the American system, Chinese system is two completely different systems, two completely different cultures. You know, it's just everything's different about it. Do you feel there is anything you can port back to America in terms of lessons that would work there? Yeah. You know, I think there are quite a few. You know, I think if people get my book, they're going to find a lot of this. Okay. So there's a plug. But, you know, I think...

helping to do away with a lot of the let me let me put it like this in china right everything that's impressed upon us right and we know this now as foreigners being here right harmony right the harmonious society right now of course you'll have a government that's you know has an excuse for everything they do for the sake of harmony but we can't deny that it exists here

There is a harmony here. Yeah, there really is. And we've seen conditions. And I've actually spoken about this with friends who are like, unbelievable. Why does it exist?

And I think, and especially when we look at society here, it's so dog-eat-dog, right? We're talking about New York City, but I mean, you can go to any major city here in China, you're going to see the same thing. I mean, it's a rat race. Oh, yeah. But they maintain this stability and this societal harmony, and it's just unbelievable. How do they do it? Yeah.

You know, I think this kind of goes back to that, you know, kind of simplifying things, you know, call it Taoism or Buddhism, whatever, whatever it may be that gets you to that place. But I think if we can bottle this up or present it as a sort of model of

This sort of harmony. Absolutely, American people, people in the West who are still struggling right now to cope with difficult conditions from the virus and other things would get on much, much better. Other things, I think what impresses me among the most is the education, the studiousness of the students. They take their studies quite seriously. The parents take it very seriously and they aspire to do well.

I have students who are talking about, you know, I got this great score on my math test or talking about the things they did on the weekend, studying or reading books versus, you know, what would we be talking about in the States, right? Skateboarding or whatever, you know. You know, so that sort of emphasis they place on education, you know, is impressive. And I think that we can certainly...

you know, benefit from that. Familial stability is another thing. I wrote about that earlier. How, you know, they look after the elderly people, you know, or their grandparents, right? And they're, you know, and I know this obviously goes back a lot. Filial piety is like a major thing here, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And I'm not saying that suddenly Americans should, you know, start building clans or whatever, but, you know, but we can take something positive out of that.

You know, where we don't necessarily have to run for the exit as soon as we turn 18. Right? You know, you can have the best of both worlds, right? You don't have to feel like you're taking care of your kids when they go to college. You can still have your life and still be a close family. You know, so that's something I feel like there's a strength here that exists, you know, in that familial relationship that I think is probably...

a little bit fractured in America. You've got too many people kind of going in different directions, you know? So, those things. I think family, education,

Harmony. And that sense of societal harmony that exists. That also societal responsibility too. I think that ties into the harmony too. People feel responsible as a whole for the community. Well, it was the most evident with COVID. I mean, we've talked about this. I mean, look how quickly China, where it came from, how quickly the whole country pretty much went back to normal, pretty much in a matter of months. Yeah.

as opposed to, you know, as you just mentioned. For anyone that doesn't know, China has been basically completely back to normal life. All businesses open for since like last summer, you know. Well, April really started opening up again and internally and, you know, sort of back to normal with protocol, you know.

A lot of people in the West where I talked to were surprised to know that they're like, Oh yeah, what's it like over there? It's been over a year for us. It's like, it's been, it's like, it's like, this is old news already. Like this isn't like COVID isn't even like headline news for us anymore. It's like an old subject, right? It's not like in the States where it's still like headline news every day. Unfortunately. And a lot of cities. Yeah, absolutely. A lot of countries. Um, you know, this, this idea of societal harmony, uh, you know, um,

Yeah. You know, COVID is a great place to start looking at the differences. Like really analyze that. It was a great social experiment globally, right? You can see a lot of different societies and cultures and the way they responded, the way people responded. And it was a great social experiment. And I think that's something that, you know, a lot of the Western media doesn't really want to put a spotlight on because if you look at the real facts and evidence of this social experiment,

You saw that there, and I always hate to frame things in winners or losers, right? I think that's not a good way to frame things. And it's not a very fair way to frame things. But in this particular case, it was kind of winners and losers a little bit of this social experiment.

Yeah, like, I mean, we don't need to harp on this for so long. But like, you know, even things like as simple as wearing a mask, right? And we always talk about, you know, the idea of wearing a mask. And I think a lot of people in the West are perception when they see everyone wearing a mask in China, right? They're like, oh, well, the government mandated it. And if you don't wear a mask, you're probably gonna get taken away and punished and arrested or something, right? And I think that is a common belief. And that cannot be further from the truth.

People, and I know this because I've lived through it. We all lived through COVID here in China. You know, people, everyone wore a mask because number one, they didn't want to get COVID, right? So they were scared of getting COVID. So you put on a mask. It's pretty much common sense. And the other reason was social responsibility. You know, like we're all doing this together. Hey, let's all put on a mask. There was no like dark...

police force here, like, like what, like mask, like brigade, you know, cracking down on mass, like during COVID, I actually, you know, admittedly, I walked down the street several times, and I took off my mask. And sometimes I even forgot to bring a mask. And, you know, I was fine. There was, so it highlights the kind of social responsibility and communal responsibility

aspect of, I think, you know, a lot of Asian cultures in general. It's not just China. Yeah, just Asian cultures in general. But that goes back to what you're saying about harmony, you know, societal harmony.

The greater good. Well, societal harmony. And the thing is, but in a country like America, it's so much easier said than done. Because now you've got all of these people and you're asking them to live together in harmony. Fuck you, harmony. You have fractured states and you have so many, like the melting pot of...

of a country that America is, you have all these put together, it's going to be really hard to have that harmony. It's hard. And in reading the news, and just back to COVID for just a second, yes, there are people that get it. I mean, they get it. There are.

Looking beyond this whole, you know, this is my responsibility, right, for the greater good of society and my neighbors as well as myself. I'm going to wear the mask. I'm going to follow the right protocol versus others who obviously, you know, didn't take that path. And we also had, you know, leadership issues.

that was fractured, right? They're going in different directions. - Mixed messages, I mean, that's a big thing. - Yeah, well, I talked to, we talked to Dr. Lemoyer recently on this show. He's an American epidemiologist and physician.

And, you know, a large part of that conversation was talking about like the politicization of like public health and that he was disappointed in the American response in that something as simple as putting out a consistent, agreed upon public health message that, you know, just from the actual public health professionals that

they couldn't even agree on these simple facts. The society in general couldn't even agree on simple, simple common sense public health facts. And it was just so divided and it was just a free-for-all. It was definitely a mess. You know, the lessons that you say about harmony, education, what else was there? Familial stability. Familial stability and things like that. I think those are great, great lessons.

But I think if they want any chance of working, and I don't think any of us really know how we can bottle that up and present it to America, but any of that stuff would only work if you branded it, if you didn't brand it as Chinese lessons.

And I think that goes along with all the bias we're talking about. If you present this to Americans as, these are lessons taken from China that you should learn from, they'll be like, fuck you. The fuck are you talking about? Unfortunately, yeah. You have to rebrand it. It can have nothing to do with China almost. You have to present it as almost their own idea, right? And then maybe they'll be more accepting to maybe allow these lessons. I do want to say, we are saying China because we're living here, obviously, but it's a general Asian thing, actually. A lot of these...

main talking points that we're talking about with societal harmony, familial, you know, these kind of ideas are quite common in other Asian countries as well. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. You know, and it's unfortunate that conditions have devolved such as they have, you know, with the relationship between America and China, perhaps East and West now, you know. So I think you're right. You know, can we bottle this up? Well, maybe we can. Yeah.

Just don't put a China label on it. It's not made in China. Gave me an idea. I think I'm going to do a reboot for my book. Maybe I should pull it and then re-release it next year under a different name. Yeah, that may be more accepting there then. But it's just to get people. And frankly speaking, we're joking about this, but there are plenty of people in America that do get it. Of course, yes. It's almost like right down the line. It's almost like a 50-50. Yeah.

Is it though? I don't think it's 50-50. I wouldn't even hazard a guess. I think that's too generous. But, you know, just knowing Americans as I do, right? I mean, we're, you know, we're an intelligent bunch, right? I mean, you know, you know, there are going to be plenty of people who are going to bypass all of this nonsensical stuff that they see in the news and they're going to learn the truth for themselves. They're going to travel. I mean, there are a million foreigners living here in China now who, you know, who could speak on this. Yeah. You know,

But again, you know, there is that stigma that exists right now. And until our governments kind of reach that point where, you know, we can shake hands and say, okay, we'll agree to disagree, but let's do this moving forward for the good of the people.

Once the whole COVID issue wears away, hopefully sooner than later, maybe that'll be possible. We could talk about China in the same breath and say, here are some lessons that you could learn from these people on how to improve your life and live better. I don't think there's one, like not once during this whole time in the Western media that something like that was ever said.

Right. Like, like the, you know, China as a country has locked down COVID and, you know, has moved on and things are back to normal things we can learn from. I don't think I, I don't remember seeing anything. I have not seen one Western media post or article or video about the positive response and recovery of,

that China went through. If anything, it's always digging up more negative stuff, like they're hiding stuff. You know, you had the whole sick man of Asia. Yeah. You know, that was the kind of stuff that was coming out. Yeah. You know, at the time. I remember there were a lot of posts on LinkedIn that were positive. People were making good points, you know, like what can we learn from this? I was responding to a few of them, but I think in terms of mainstream media. Mainstream media, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it was very one-sided, you know, and... So weird. That's unfortunate because it's like,

You can condemn them, right, for where the virus originated. And no, the government did not act quickly enough, right? That's obvious. But the fact that, you know, only a few months later, you know, they're reining this in and, you know, hey, we can learn something from this, right? This is where it originated from and now it's seemingly disappearing. But we're still suffering, right?

What are we doing wrong versus what are they doing right? If anything, there are articles I did read that they would mention that they're like, oh, China media would let you believe that it's business back as normal. But are they really hiding statistics? Is it really back to normal? You know, like that kind of news I did read about. It's so pathetic because one trip here...

We'll give you the answer. I mean, there's, you know, it's unfortunate. There's precedent for that, obviously. But, you know, talk to other foreigners. You know, visit the, you know, international...

you know, media, you know, and, you know, they'll give you, I mean, even, you know, even me, right? Like I would have communications with some friends back home and say, how are the conditions there? And then they'll say, how are you doing out there? Things are better here, right? We still have to wear the mask. We still have to take precautions, but they're better. How do you know they're really better? Can you believe? And so then I'll look through my materials and I'll say, yeah, this is coming from an expat source. So it's probably going to be pretty real, you know, reasonable, but, you know,

That's what people think. That's the nature of the world we live in now. Overriding, you know, yeah. Yeah. Look, I think your book is really fascinating and you make a lot of good and interesting comments

You present a lot of interesting concepts in the book. There's so many other cans of worms we can get into because it's like, this topic spawns off to so many, so many other topics that we can spend days talking about. Fortunately, for the length of this podcast, we can't get to all of it. But for anyone that does want to understand more, read more, where can they find your book?

Well, it's on all of the major online channels, Amazon, Apple, Google, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, all of those. Great. And you can also visit my website, www.edgestudentsuccess.com.

I do have a little author page on there that has more information and a free downloadable chapter. Ooh, downloadable chapter. Yum, yum, yum. That one highlights my first visit to China. It's kind of fun. It's a little bit short, but it's fun. It's definitely not as serious as some of the subjects we covered today.

But it will also give people a pretty good idea of what they might expect, you know, taking their first visit to China. Cool. So, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Vinny. This was such a pleasure talking to you. There's so much more we can get into next time. I mean, how we pointed this out one time in a show, there's never...

There's never an end to the amount of topics we can talk about when it comes to China versus, well, not versus, and the US. Let's put it that way, right? And there's always going to be, I mean, who knows what the future holds? Yeah, yeah. All we can do is just kind of...

Stay positive. You know, things are going to get better, hopefully sooner than later. But once, you know, some of these issues start subsiding a little bit with COVID, you know, Joe Biden might be a little bit more perhaps open-minded, you know, towards, you know, international relations.

I think things are only going to go up from here, but it still takes some time. Well, I appreciate you, man. And thanks for writing the book and highlighting your points. And it was really a pleasure talking to you. Me too. Thank you, guys. I appreciate you inviting me on here. It's my pleasure. All right, Vinny. Thanks for coming. Cheers. I'm Justin. And I'm Howie. That was Vinny. And this is The Honest Drink. All right, guys. Be good, be well, and stay positive. All right, guys. Love you. Peace. See you.

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