#82. Noel & Katherine: Against The Grain
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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. You can always reach us on our email, WeChat, Instagram. Details are in the description below. And if you've been enjoying this podcast, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe.

All right, we got a fun one today. Both of my guests are YouTubers and social media content creators living in China. They make vlogs about their experiences here, sharing their perspective and lives in China. Noel is an entrepreneur and podcast host from Singapore, and Catherine is an environmental engineering master's student from America.

You can check out their channels under No Li and Catherine's Journey to the East or Yang Li Zi on Bilibili. We get into a really interesting conversation today about dealing with hate and criticism. We get some really interesting facts on environmental protection in China. We even talk about Neil deGrasse Tyson, challenging your own belief systems. And we really get into something called AMWF.

which I just learned stands for Asian Male, White Female. We get some great firsthand insights and dive deep into the topic of white women dating Asian men, which let's face it, it's usually the other way around. This was a blast of a conversation today. So without further ado, please give it up for Noel Lee and Catherine Olson.

Nice, for an off the ball.

That's all you're gonna get. Are you being sarcastic? That's all you're gonna get. No, I get... I often get, like, sick from drinking alcohol. Like, there's a very small type... Very small percentage of alcohols that I can accept. Most of them will, like, make me sick. Really? So I gotta, like, try it first. So I'm like, oh, good. You started off small. Okay, so what kind of alcohols can you not drink? Do you know, like, you just can't drink? I get sick from wine...

Beer, I don't want to drink because the concentration is too low, so you won't feel anything. So it's just like, fuck that. Oh, okay. Baijiu is a big no. Oh, no. Basically, the lower and upper extremes. So it tends to be the stuff in the middle that's okay. So this is actually like, might be okay. Okay.

Actually, whiskey. I mean, how often have you had whiskey before? I've had it before. Whiskey or rum. There's one other one. Tequila? Oh, not tequila. Vodka. No, no. There's one other middle ground alcohol that I think is acceptable. Hey, Gullino. Thanks, Justin. Catherine? All right.

Actually, on the Baijiu thing, I'm going to actually change my mind because like Kerr before, I was fearful of Baijiu. But after going to Maotai and actually experiencing really refined Baijiu, it's not what you think unless you've tried the best. So you've been to the Maotai factory? Yeah, I was just in Guizhou. And I just had a trip in the Maotai area, city. And we went to the actual...

the Maotai Baizhou place and there's lots and hundreds of brands of Baizhou and you know those are really like refined ones compared to what you'll find in the convenience stores so yeah they're very different so you got converted well I lost my fear of Baizhou you had a fear? I had a fear yeah I was knocked out by the factory boss like 2007 when I started going to the factory and

And one of my experience was in, after dinner, well, during dinner, the factory boss, well, he was trying to buy me over, right? Because I was working for a company. And he was just pouring me baijiu, small little cup like that. One, finish it. Another one. That's it, right? Oh, she said, finish it first. All right, I'll finish it. Another one comes. And I was just done. I was knocked out. Really. Wait, how many did you have? I don't know.

I don't know But it was so pungent It was kind of disgusting Yeah But I did it because of like trying to be nice right This time I wasn't knocked out There was no pungent smell It was just a sensation of like the alcohol And that's it They gave you the good stuff The good stuff Well this is supposedly some good stuff right here This whiskey So cheers Cheers Thanks for coming to the show guys Thank you Thanks for having us It's an honour It's an honour

Still gotta get my chaser ready. Come on, Gathered. Come on, Gathered. Try it without a chaser first. Someone tried to convert me to Baidyo literally two days ago during the Dragon Boat Festival. They gave me the good stuff in the fancy box. Couldn't do it. Oh my gosh. You have a very limited selection of alcohol you can drink. Because when you throw out beer, wine...

Like that's what most people drink. Yeah, exactly. So I have alcohol like once a year. Oh, really? Yeah. So that day didn't count. I had like one sip and I was like, bye. No more. When was that? Once a year? Your birthday or? I think the last time. Yeah, it was like a date with my boyfriend. We went out and had some wine together and I got so sick from that. Well, I'm honored that you are drinking here with us. This is a big deal. It is a big deal. Give it a try. Yeah.

What do you think? Oh, going right for the chaser. I can't do it without the chaser, but it's tolerable. Yeah. Yeah, it's tolerable. Well, before we started recording, we were talking a little bit about the difference between being a podcaster and a YouTuber. And for listeners that don't know, you both are YouTubers on YouTube, obviously, making video content.

And you guys make a lot of travel content, content about China. Is that correct? Is that accurate to describe? So, okay, let's get, what do we want to start here? Noel? Ladies first. Okay, so just fill me in a little bit about your channel because I saw the video you did on Noel's channel. Yeah. And it was quite good. So kind of what is your whole angle here with YouTube, I guess?

So my YouTube channel is kind of like a travel channel in the sense that I go to a lot of places and I experience a lot of things. But it's kind of combining travel with like life in China because I'm not just here for a few months or a few years. Like I'm planning on staying for a long time. I have a Chinese boyfriend, like live in the China life, you know. So I try to...

I guess I kind of combine those two different elements. Like there's the element of exploring and traveling and experiencing this new country. And then there's also a lot of elements of what is it like to live in China? So I kind of bring those two things together. Is there a little bit of, like, I guess for like your average watchers, right, on YouTube, is there a little bit you feel of like that kind of,

shock value is, it would be an aggressive way to put it, but is there a little bit of shock value? Because here you are, you know, you're like straight up white girl, right? American. And here you are in China, like making all this Chinese content. You have a Chinese boyfriend. Yeah. Is there a little bit of people, you think like people will find interest in that? Like, man, what is this girl up to? Like, why is she here? And instead of like, let's say if it was a Chinese girl making the same content, it probably wouldn't be as aggressive.

interesting in a way for video. I've gotten that kind of feedback from a lot of people that they think it's really interesting or unique. And I have shared a lot of these videos on Facebook with some of my, you know, some of my old classmates will see them or like friends, family, and a lot of people are just really interested in this kind of story, you know, because of course my perspective would be much different than,

a Chinese person, you know, I'm bringing like this foreign set of eyes to this country and kind of showing everyone all these different and unique things. Like, for example, one of my hobbies is biking in the countryside. So I'm not just showing everyone like typical tourist destinations. I'll just go and like make my own path basically and go and see what I find. And I run into all kinds of interesting people and interesting things. And I just like the real China, right? Yeah. The real China, so to speak. So I love doing that kind of exploring. And of course, you know,

On YouTube, if your videos get spread quite far out, you will get every type of opinion under the sun. So, of course, people will come at me saying, like, oh, you're brainwashed or this is CCP propaganda or this or that. Like, those are just unavoidable. But overall, the feedback is quite positive. People are, like, intrigued by the story, you know? Yeah, you get a few of those crazy ones in there. Even my videos, which have not been widely watched as yours, but, like, even mine, like, you get a few of those comments.

in there and it gets real toxic real quick if you actually engage with them. I haven't, thank God. I refuse to engage in the comment section or even to look at the comment section now. But like, but if you engage with that, it can get into a real toxic rabbit hole real quick. Right? That's the thing with YouTube, I think. You don't even look at your comments anymore because you have so many. Oh, that's so sad.

It is sad in a way, right? Because yeah, this is the rough thing about it, right? Because they're overwhelmingly positive. Yeah. But it's like the few bad ones just like frustrate me so much because of the shit they say. And it's just like,

Like I don't even want to like come across it and it's just like that's like human nature, right? You can have like a hundred great comments positive comments and like two really negative ones But those two you'll remember whereas the positive ones you almost like don't even remember take for granted. Yeah, it's terrible What about you know here you are and on your channel you're making content about china and xinjiang. Hmm

Which is like kind of the mother load of anything like controversial and divisive Politically these days right like that is a huge topic. All right

And it's funny because here you are, you're talking about toxicity and people coming after you. Did you not get any of that with the Xinjiang videos you made? For the Xinjiang videos, what I got was, in fact, more tame, more civilized. Really? All they did was say that I'm a CCP shill. I'm spreading Chinese propaganda.

They want the Singapore Internal Affairs Or internal security To arrest me When I go back to Singapore Well that's not very tame Yeah How is that tame? That's tame That's fine They never They never went after my business Oh they never actually took action Right yeah That's it Yeah Whereas like The Macross thing The models That actually like hurt you It hurt me because That affected my Brand's reputation

I get that. I get that. But how do you, so does that deter you? And this question goes to you, Catherine, too. Like, do getting comments like this, does it like deter you at all or make you second think the content you make whenever you're kind of putting up new videos or thinking about what to do next? Does it factor in at all? Well, for me. Or does it give you extra juice to like even go even harder? For me, the Macross saga has sort of tied me down and I thought the best way is just to just let it go.

That means I'm raising the white flag. I'm giving up. But for the YouTube contents, nope. Because like I said, those comments are pretty tame. And as long as currently it's not coming to a stage of being doxxed or life-threatening, I guess it's fine. So can you describe a little bit of the videos you shot in Xinjiang, I guess?

If you want to talk about that. Yeah, I... Like, just for the listeners who don't know or might not be familiar with your channel. I mean, they got a bunch of views and it was right at the height of the whole kind of re-energized Xinjiang controversy, right? Right. So yeah, I was in Xinjiang because...

Obviously, there is that rhetoric going on that I felt was totally nonsense. So in order for me to talk about it, I thought I had to be in Xinjiang, do some filming and prove that I was there to be able to speak about it with some, I guess, magnitude or some sense of what we're looking for.

Like authority? Yeah, authority, right? So yeah, I went over there. I visited three places, Urumqi, Kashgar and Hotan. And I basically shot photographs and footages of the people living their normal lives. So yeah, I mean, if there was things like genocide and forced labor going on, I wasn't seeing it.

Of course, they will tell you, oh, of course, but you have been only to the cities. You have not gone out there. It's happening out there. But hey, I flew over Urumqi and I was filming the ground. On the day of my flight, it was clear skies. I could see directly on the ground.

There were no clouds blocking my way. I was filming like 18, 20, 50 minutes of footages and I was seeing barren land. Land that is inhabitable for humans. So who would go out there to build a camp to house people? It doesn't make sense. Well, I mean, that's what I really respect about what you both do. I think, I mean, part of what you do or if not, like one of the main things you do on your channel is vlog, right? Yeah.

And you guys achieved something that I think this podcast can never achieve. Just the format of podcasting can never achieve. Because here we are, we're sitting in a studio. No one really knows, watching really knows where we are. They just have to kind of take our word for it. But you guys film yourselves and vlog on site wherever you guys go. Whatever city you're in, whatever building you're in, whatever country you go to.

And there's something really kind of tactile and like tangible about that where people can really, it's much, obviously it's much more believable because people can kind of live those experiences with you. And I think a lot of the kind of go-to criticism about whenever people are talking about anything that's controversial or political is like, well, how do you know you're not there?

a lot of, like even this podcast, like not every episode we talk about like political or controversial things. A lot of it is about self-help, self-development, personal issues. But whenever we do try to explore a little bit of kind of these like kind of politically divisive things, I mean, you find out like how divided the world really is. And it's, to me, it's been borderline depressing. And I don't know if that

experience kind of really resonates with you at all being content creators yourself but i just feel like the world has always been divided but just because of how interconnected we all are and how fast information spreads now like we're seeing all the divisiveness not that it's a new thing but it's just that we're we're able to see it now and it's overwhelming at times

So I don't know, like, I don't like, like on YouTube, I think this is a whole different animal because you're actually putting your face on there. You're making videos, right? You're putting your name to it. It's like, how, how much of it is like, does it personally affect you or does it?

I mean, I think you're just going to get those comments. There's just really nothing you can do about it because the media from both sides is so charged. Like in China, for example, the media is always beating down on the U.S., talking about how terrible the U.S. is. I'm always getting comments on Chinese social media about how everyone in the U.S. has a gun, how the U.S. is so dangerous. I mean, yes, there's bad things in the U.S., but...

I mean, welcome to earth, right? The media will always overemphasize certain things. So on Chinese social media, I got to go up against people who are telling me I'm a spy, who are constantly harassing me about something. On Chinese social media? Yes, Chinese social media, people say I'm a spy. So it's because the two countries' media outlets have just been beating on each other. Like Chinese media is always talking about how terrible the US is. The US media is always talking about how terrible China is. Like for example, you know about the Japan nuclear wastewater thing, right? So it's...

it's really not mentioned in media in the U S at all, but I guarantee you if it was China, all the U S would jump on it. And then they don't really necessarily even care about the issue itself. It's just like China, China, China. We don't like China. So on YouTube, I'm always getting those comments about, Oh,

Oh, you're just paid by the CCP. Oh, you're brainwashed. This, that. And on Chinese social media, I'm also getting all kinds of annoying comments. It's just part of life. So there's like, it's a lose-lose scenario in a way, right? Yeah, you're always going to get that. But the overwhelming feedback is positive. And there's one other thing too, that people tend to not put their opinion in the comments if they're like middle ground, you know?

It's the people that really support you and the people that really don't support you. They are the ones in the comments. Yeah. The extremists on both ends. Yeah. So there's a lot of quiet audience members who are enjoying the videos and they just move on. I mean, I watch a lot of YouTube and how many videos do I leave a comment on? Not very many, honestly. Like, I mean, I'm just a quiet audience for almost all these videos. And I mean, if anything, if a video is getting a lot of dislikes or a lot of negative comments, I mean, that's a sign that YouTube is really pushing it like far, you know, if

if you're getting a lot of that negative content, if you're getting a lot of those negative comments, it means that your video is getting pushed to a new audience that maybe isn't so accustomed to seeing a positive lens of China. So it just kind of comes with the territory like, "Okay, YouTube, keep on promoting my video. Like, that's fine." Like, the more of those negative comments come in, the more I know, "Oh, wow, this video must be doing well." Like, my two best performing videos are the ones that have the most dislikes and the most hate because, I mean, those videos got promoted so far out beyond my core audience.

So even when you thumbs down a video, it's actually helping the video being spread? I'm not saying it helps it spread. So what I mean is that this video is very popular and it has been spread out very far and that is bringing in a very wide audience. So okay, so going to your most popular videos, what have they been about? So the most popular one is just kind of my backstory, I guess, like why I moved to China, what I like about China, etc. And people are all in the comments.

Talking about how the CCP must have paid you to do this video or blah blah blah and the videos got over a hundred dislikes Which is quite a lot for a small creator like myself, but it's just like that's inevitable, you know I mean the videos that only have one or two dislikes they barely made it outside of my core audience They really weren't promoted very far at all So if you can't handle that criticism, then your videos are just constantly gonna be constrained to your own audience

That's a good point. You're going to get criticism if your videos get pushed out far and wide. You just got to kind of deal with it, you know, whatever. So why... Now I'm curious. Like, why did you move to China? There was...

What are you laughing about? There are a lot of reasons. I guess I could just, if I'm going to kind of use that way, if I'm going to use that video as an example, the way it summarized it is basically, I love exploring. I love going to new places and seeing interesting things. And China is just a really great place to do that because it's such a massive country. There's so many different provinces and so many different like local cultures and different geography, different styles of architecture, different foods.

There's just so much exploring you can do here, and you can use the same language basically to get around.

It's amazing. Like if you were to try to do the same thing in Europe, I mean, there's all kinds of language barriers and you're going between different countries and things like that. But here it's just this huge territory with so much to explore. So that was one thing because I love biking. You know, I love to go on the countryside and just bike and explore. I've been all over the edges of Nanjing where I live and all kinds of other cities. There's always something new to explore. So that's a big thing for me.

And another one is the language aspect. Like, I just love living my life in another language. I think that's fun and exciting. It just adds like another challenging element to life. Like, I wanted to find a partner who speaks another language. I wanted to have friends in another language, do my studies, my job, everything in a foreign language. I think that's really fun, really exciting. So those were the two main reasons. And I'm in the environmental field, environmental engineering. So I feel like that's a field that is growing in

and kind of like becoming more emphasized by the government. You know, if the government wants something to happen, you know how the government works here. Like if they want something to happen, it will. It's going to happen. It's going to happen. Yeah. So there's been so much efforts being taken in the past like decade or so to really improve the environment here. And there's just a lot of great opportunities. I mean, China's kind of the world's factory, right? Why is the environment in the U.S. so nice? Well, a big reason is because we have kind of pushed a lot of our industries, our polluting industries off to other countries to maximize

to Mexico, to Bangladesh, to China. And then now you're waving a stick over them because you did that. Why are you making so much pollution? Yeah, exactly. We gave you all the stuff to make, but why are you making it? Yeah, yeah. So I think there's a lot of really interesting opportunities in the environmental field here. So those are the main reasons. Oh, that's really interesting. So what I gather from it is you're a girl who likes to kind of push your comfort zones a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Live for that. So China was a good option, I feel like.

Okay, so how did you... I know you have a video because I saw it in the recommended section. I didn't tap into it yet, but it was a video you made like how you met your boyfriend. So you have a Chinese boyfriend. You met him here? Yeah, we met in China. So he's never been to the US. The US won't give him... They won't give him a visa. Yeah.

So how did you guys meet? What's the story behind that? We met online. Okay. Honestly, it's not that exciting of a story, unfortunately. Nothing super spicy. But yeah, we just met online. And then did he speak any English at that time? No, and he doesn't really speak English now either. Okay. He's just kind of working his way there step by step. I spoke Chinese already at that point. Wow.

I already knew Chinese when we met. And you speak, I'm assuming you speak it pretty well now, pretty fluently. Yeah. I mean, I was pretty fluent then too. I'd already dated two other Chinese guys. I've been learning for like, yeah, I'd been learning for like three or four years. So it's like yellow fever reversed. Yeah.

Oh my god. Edit that out. All the haters are going to come for me. No, I think it's great. We need more of that. Yeah, honest. We need more of that because there's that stereotype, right? Like white guys like Asian girls and you see it all the time, but you don't see as much. And I don't mean like white girl in derogatory way. I mean, I'm just saying like you don't see as many white girls dating Asian guys. You just don't see that as much. So I love it. I love it when I see it. I applaud it.

And I was laughing just now because I asked you the same question on Straight Talk. So her answer is consistent. Okay. She's honest. Wait, what did you ask her on Straight Talk? Same thing. Same question. Why did I come to China? What do I look here? It'd be funny if she had a whole different story. I'd be like shocked. You shouldn't have done it over Zoom. That's all I can say. You should have done it in person. Then you get the real story. And over some liquor. Yes. Cheers. Oh, you need some more. You drink quick.

Let me point out. No, but the environmental sciences thing is something I'm actually very fascinated with. I didn't know that. And I've been wanting to get some environmental kind of science professionals and experts onto the show to talk about those issues. Yeah, it is a huge issue here. And I think living in China, let me just drink this real quick. Living in China, even those of us who live here, you know, one of the main criticisms is,

is about pollution, right? And we see it. I mean, there's definitely a pollution problem here. But I think what the narrative, especially in the West, that doesn't get told a lot is that actually China is leading the way now in protecting the environment. The kind of initiatives they're taking, and I think the amount of resources and money and subsidies they're providing for a lot of companies to come in

and do well and create renewable energy options or whatever it is. I mean, you would know far more about this than I do. But I see it as a periphery, even as an investor, I see the push that the government is making and the steps that they're taking. And that's not really kind of a story that gets told a lot. And I kind of want it. And if there's any place that would be such a great like petri dish, for lack of a better term, to kind of see this whole environmental like

experiment go down, I think it'd be China. Right? Yeah. And so like, what is like, how, how, how involved are you a student right now? Or are you working professionally in this field? Like, what's your involvement? I'm a student right now, but I'm going to be graduating soon. So I'm so excited to graduate. I've been in school way too long. I don't know if you were aware, but getting a master's degree in China takes three years is such a long process, but I haven't been

I don't know, how would you put this? I guess I'm just not a good student because I'm always doing stuff on the side. Ever since I got here, I've been doing all kinds of part-time stuff. I have an internship that I've been working with since 2017. So I've been doing a lot of conference interpreting for them at various environmental events. Not so much in the last year because of the pandemic. Like a translator? Yeah, like conference interpreting. You know, like the person in the box.

Yeah. In the back of the room. Like someone's on stage talking. Oh, they have like their earphones they're putting in. You're the one talking into that. Yeah, yeah. I've done that. That's awesome. And also the one where like you say a few sentences and then I say a few sentences like the back and forth.

So I've done a lot of conference interpreting for them, like translating a lot of materials for them, tons of environmental education stuff. Like I led this little, I guess you would call it a little after school class for a couple of schools near my university where every week I would go in and teach the kids about all kinds of environmental concepts and things like that. I did that for a whole semester. So I did all kinds of environmental education stuff.

So I've been staying busy outside of just school. You know, like I work on my research and outside of that, I've been doing all this interning stuff. OK, so from your vantage point, because before I went on a rant about how good or how much energy and power China is putting into this whole kind of environmental resources and renewable energy, like, is that correct? Or from your vantage point, what are you seeing actually happen here?

in terms of any steps or progress being made on that front? Well, there's one really interesting change that's been taking place is that in the past, maybe like a few decades ago, or even as close as maybe 10 years ago, the government kind of didn't want to listen to the environmental groups and didn't want to take all the effort and all the resources to deal with these problems. But recently, because

because my internship works with a lot of like civil society organizations, so I can like see this happening and they tell me about it too. The government kind of switched their view of this, I suppose you would say, like government actually really wants to put that effort in now. Like they care that these standards are being met. They care that these environmental issues are being resolved. So for example, a lot of these civil society,

a lot of the civil society organizations, they will be on the ground finding problems. Like for example, illegal fishing during the fish breeding season or for example, a factory that's polluting something that they shouldn't be. A lot of these civil society organizations are on the ground finding problems and then they will report the problem to the government and the government is responsible

for taking care of the punishment afterward or taking care of some of the enforcement related stuff. So before it was always civil society versus the government. They weren't really a cooperative relationship. It was like pushing back against each other, you know?

And now it's really switched to a very collaborative relationship. They're almost like working with or for the government in a way. Yeah, exactly. Because the government makes the standards. The government does the punishments. The government handles the fines and all these things. But it's difficult for the government to actually be on the ground looking for all these problems all the time. You know, so that's something that...

civil society organizations do at least the ones that are part of my internship that's what they are how many of these civil what are they called civil society what are they called again civil society organizations yeah time to think of a good word it's just kind of like

Okay, so that's like the English translation from Chinese, right? I'm sure there's a proper English word for it. I just honestly have like blanked right now. No, but that's good enough. How many of there are there? Is it very widespread? Are there a lot of people on the ground? In all of China? Oh, I have no idea. Countless ones. Just the ones I'm familiar with is probably like five or six. So I can get more direct information from them. Like I've gone and visited a few of them. I've made like videos for them, like showing some of the work they were doing. But...

In all of China, I can't even count how many of them there are. Okay, so there's a bunch of them. Yeah, there's a lot. Do you have any insight into how well the government is actually enforcing? Like once these civil society organizations report something...

Like, how well is the government, from your perspective, actually enforcing the fines or the punishments or the consequences or whatever and correcting these mistakes? As far as I can see, they are. It's not a me versus you situation anymore. Like, as long as they report this information, the government does seem to actually be taking the steps to deal with the polluter or deal with the illegal fishermen. I mean, they've been doing a lot of.

I guess a lot of collaborative work in this sense. Like the government really truly cares about enforcing these standards as opposed to just putting them there for the sake of like completing an obligation. Like it seems that that was kind of a trend in the past. Like, okay, we're just going to crank out this standard. And then for example, you'd have the environmental inspectors show up to the factory on this day. And as long as the water meets the standard on this day, okay, we're done. We're good. And then,

all the subsequent days, the factory might just be dumping waste straight in the river and nobody cares. Like it was a very surface level kind of obligatory situation. But in the past like decade or two, that's really been changing. Like the government is genuinely invested in making sure that the environment is improving. And obviously it's not perfect. Like there's still a very long road to go, but it's definitely on an upward trend as opposed to like in the US, for example, under the the

the Trump regime or whatever you want to call it, you know, Trump regime. Yeah. My internship has a lot of organizations in the U.S. They're actually headquartered there. And I was always seeing that kind of feedback coming out of them like, oh my gosh, this is such an uphill battle because the government is undoing so much environmental regulations that we used to have. So in the U.S. it's like,

We do have a very good environmental situation, but it's beginning to go on like a downhill now, or at least it was during the Trump administration. It may be improving with Biden. But that was a real big problem during those four years. They were always saying, oh, my gosh, like they're undoing this regulation or that regulation. They're doing all these rollbacks. And it's just such a struggle. Like we're kind of slipping back. We're losing our progress. But in China, you know, they're on the uphill. Yes, it's slow. Yes, there's a ton of work that needs to be done. But it's really not as bad as the Western media would like to make it out to be.

This is a dead horse that I've beaten to death on this show, but it's really one of my criticisms of a four-year administration and a system that's based off of popularity is that you put certain policies in place and after four years, someone else comes into office and kind of reshuffles or undoes everything. Yeah, that really is a problem. So you keep running in place.

You keep running in place. And the question is like, what kind of real progress are you really making? And look, there's a lot of criticisms and legitimate criticisms you can make of the government here in China. But one thing you cannot say is that they don't get shit done because they do. That's one thing you can never say about China is that they don't get shit done. They get shit done. Yeah. And they get shit done real fast. I guess the proof is in the pudding.

right so you just look at the just look at america and just look at china i mean just look at the place itself yeah but it's easy for you to say that and this goes on to another thing that i think you guys are i mean there's a bunch of people who love to travel and love to explore the world i mean there's a lot of them out there um you guys included but if we're looking at the entirety of

I mean, the human race, I guess. I mean, it's a rarer breed that people actually venture out to actually explore. And

you even made a video, I think on your channel about brainwashing. And it's like about seeing with your own eyes and ears. And to your point, Catherine, before it's like, you like pushing yourself outside of your comfort zones. I've never, I haven't, I don't think I've talked to anybody that really has exemplified that more than you. I mean, like,

You just like to go to a place where you're just learning a new language and you're dating a boyfriend that doesn't even speak your native language. I mean, that to me, that to a lot of people would be very interesting, but I think most people would never even entertain that idea of actually doing that, right? And you're living it.

And Noel, you talk about like, you know, not like getting the information for yourself. In this day and age, everyone knows, right? This is also a dead horse I've beaten to death on this show is about my mistrust and growing mistrust in mainstream media. On either side, on any side, because obviously, you know, you're getting a very tainted point of view, right?

Um, but it's the idea of like, okay, I'm actually going to go out and it's the confidence to go out and like believe with your own eyes and ears and your willingness to actually travel to places to see for yourself. So what you just said is about like, oh, we can see it. We can see it. But the main thing is most people don't see it.

Because they're living in their own cultural bubble and their own social bubble. And we have the privilege. I grew up in the States. So did you, Catherine. You're from Singapore, right? And we traveled a bunch and we make that effort to kind of see and actually put ourselves in those situations. But that's not most people, I would have to assume. Yeah, you said it right. And to add to that, even myself, I'm not as well-traveled

as, I guess, other people, right? I've known people who have gone to a hundred other countries, right? I've been to less than 10. So even myself, I have not been able to experience most of the world. That's why I'm actually trying to make it up by doing all these podcasts,

on my straight talk where I meet different people from different places. I've just done, there's a new premiere coming up of this recording tonight. I met a new Cameroon friend. So I found out that in Cameroon, it's not what the media is painting it to be. It's not a place where there's hungry children and poverty. I mean, there is poverty, but not to that state.

He says that Cameroon is just like any other city or any other country. So for me, it's like, oh yeah. So I've not been there. I got to trust his word and I can trust it because he's Cameroon. So yeah. So is that the whole kind of motivation or genesis behind your YouTube channel is that you're just trying to go out and

just open up your mind and just get new information? I think for me, I want to start journaling, doing journals. So I have always wanted to do journaling of my life, but I'm very bad at keeping a diary. I've tried it. I've really tried it. I tried penning down on a book, but after a few days, I just stopped.

Either it's because I'm too busy, too tired, all the excuses I can give you. So I thought YouTube is a good way for me to just fire up the camera, record something, I mean, share my experiences, right? And if I can share what I think about something that is recorded, I can journal it and I can come back five years from now and then see what I've said before and compared to what I'm thinking now. So I think that's a very good instrument that is available to all of us.

And it doesn't mean that you have to use it to do it just because YouTube is going to be about getting subscribers and getting a monetization. No, I mean, anybody can do a YouTube if you know how to use the instrument. Everything is there for you. It's how you use it that counts. Do you guys get into a lot of debates though with people or with friends around you when you make your content? Is that like something? Oh yeah. Really? Yeah.

You get in debates, what, in the comment section? No, with friends and family. Oh, with friends and family. I thought we were talking about YouTube. Well, what do your friends and family say? What kind of debate? Well, mostly it's that, you know, don't talk politics. Don't, don't, they're trying to tell me that I don't know everything, really, because it might be, it might be true.

There's a chance it's true. You know, I just don't know. That's the way they are receiving it being in Singapore. I get that a lot. Because they are in Singapore, they are fed the news in Singapore. They are not going out. So, yeah, that's what they tell me. So, I mean, and I'm here trying to tell them that it's not like that, but they...

okay, just take care, but don't just stay out of it. Well, I think we have to be very careful, right? I'm not going to speak for you guys, but for myself, we have to be very careful because we can end up very easily becoming the very thing that we're criticizing. And this is a realization that I've had recently is that if you're going to talk to anybody and you're going to, if you really want to have an honest conversation, right?

Both sides, whoever you're talking to, myself included, we have to first acknowledge, openly acknowledge that we could be wrong, that we don't know everything,

and that our whole position can be flawed. Like we have to acknowledge that that possibility is there. As hard as it is, as little as maybe we think that that is the case, we have to acknowledge that that is a real possibility. And if both people can acknowledge that, then you have the potential to start from an honest place having conversation. But if you're talking to somebody

And let's say we're talking about China or we're talking about whatever. And they're completely on the other end of the spectrum in terms of their belief. And they're like, well, no, you're just wrong. No, no, no, no, no. You're wrong. You're wrong.

Well, you can't start from an honest place. And that could be us. It could be the other way around. If I'm just like, oh, no, you're wrong. You're wrong. I know what it's really like. You're totally wrong. Well, I have to be willing to admit that my position could be flawed. I don't know everything and that it's possible I could be wrong. And then we can start from whatever. Then we start from a more honest ground. What you just said can be summarized by Neil deGrasse Tyson's

Quote that I really love. Oh, I love him. To know enough to think you're right, but not know enough to know you're wrong. Say that again. You got to know enough to think you are right, but not know enough to know you are wrong. But not know enough to know that you're wrong. Is this advice? What is that? Yeah. He's saying that's the problem, right? No, that's...

No, he's not saying that's problematic. He's saying that the most difficult thing in life is to know enough to think you're right.

So we are gathered with lots of knowledge and we think we are right about it. For example, you have an equation or you have all the things presented to you and you are being asked a question and you know enough to think that that is the right answer. But you got to give that bit of space that you might not know enough to know that actually you're wrong. And that applies to this discussion.

Yeah, but I'll know if you're misquoting him or not. Because, okay, I get what you're saying. I feel like we need to look up this quote. We need to fact check this quote. Because, no, I get what you're saying. I'm sure it's something along those lines. But it's the same thing that goes, and there's another quote, right? From, I think, a philosopher back in the ancient times. He was like, or maybe not even ancient times. Someone said this. It's like, I know I'm intelligent because I know I don't know everything. You know?

And it's knowing, I think it's not knowing, it's knowing enough to know you don't know everything. All right, that makes more sense, right? Yeah, hold on. Yeah, I will check it out. But we get the spirit. I get the spirit. I'm curious what the original quote is now. Find this thing. Neil deGrasse Tyson is going to come on and be like, no. Who is that?

Who is Neil deGrasse Tyson? You don't know who Neil deGrasse Tyson is? No, you guys even put his middle name in there. So I don't know. I guess that's how he goes. Like everyone just calls him Neil deGrasse Tyson. Knowing enough to think you are right, but not knowing enough to know you are wrong. That's what I said, right? Yeah, but this, wait, not knowing. Yeah, but this is your notes. This is what you punched in. Yeah, because I copied it verbatim. Oh. Yeah.

Is it just me or does it seem a little like the way it's worded is a little bit confusing? It doesn't make sense to me either. Right? How about this, guys? Two versus one, though. Two versus one. Hold on. Hold on. I got ammo. I got ammo. I don't know who Neil deGrasse Tyson is, but this feels like one of those fake deep quotes. It should be you know enough to know that you don't know everything, right? You don't know enough to know you're not. You don't know everything.

All right, we got to figure this out. Yeah, we got to. Hold on. How are you in your photo album? Just, like, Google it. What tangent are we going on here? You know what? Because I got the video, dude. Oh, my goodness. We're going to get to the bottom of this. I want to know now. Neil, for real, who is this DeGrasse Tyson guy? ...is knowing enough about a subject to think you're right, but not enough about the subject to know you're wrong.

Get it? That is what he said then. Your quote is accurate. Yeah. But I feel like it's, I feel it's a little flawed. I feel what he said is a little flawed. No, but I get it. I get it too. Yeah. Yeah. Good job. That was good. Cheers. Cheers, man. So he's basically just saying don't learn too much stuff, otherwise you'll prove yourself wrong. It basically means, in a nutshell, it basically means keep that, don't be extreme and say that I'm right and you are wrong.

For sure, you are wrong. I'm always right. He's just trying to say that, you know, leave that little bit that, oh, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're right. This is really bothering Catherine. Yes, it is. It doesn't make any sense. Okay. No, you're right. It kind of doesn't make any sense, right? I feel like he's advising me to not learn. Yeah, not learn so much. No, no, no. He's like, don't learn enough. One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right, but not enough to know you're wrong. Yeah.

It's a little weird. I feel like this is just one of those like, but I totally get it. But again, I don't know who Neil deGrasse Tyson is. But we get what he's trying to say. That's the important thing. That's the takeaway, right? What we're taking away from it. That's the important thing. But that's, that's so true, right? I think it's so easy and I'm guilty of this. And it's so easy to get caught up, especially in the heat of a debate or a heat of a conversation to be so firmly planted with

you know, on that I am, whether I have the moral high ground or that I'm right about something, you know, and that you get so defensive about what you're saying. And then whenever you get defensive about it, it's so easy for that conversation to spiral out of control and turn into an argument, right? And once it turns into an argument and once it gets into that zone, it's not productive anymore.

anymore. It's not productive anymore because everyone just shuts down, right? And everyone just goes into defense and you're protecting your own ego, you're protecting your own, you know, your face, your beliefs and everything. And I just think of it as like, I think of like our view of the world, right? Our view of knowledge as, like if we look at space, right?

And we look at all the planets, we look at all the asteroids, all the cloud clusters, all the stars out there. There's a lot of matter out there. But there's so much more just empty space than there is matter. And I feel like that's how we have our information.

Like there's so much information in the world and everything is so complex and there's so many different shades and there's so much nuance that it's impossible for our minds to kind of just really absorb and comprehend and even know it all.

And what we do is how our minds work, it's how it's always worked, is it helps us simplify the information around us so that we can understand it and that we can absorb it. So what it does is there's so much more empty space between the actual information that we know. And we just know little bits, but our mind frames it in a way where it kind of consolidates that information and removes all that empty space and

And just consolidates everything and grossly oversimplifies the information so that we can understand. And that's the information we work off of to understand the world. And it's a very flawed, it's a very incomplete and inaccurate picture, but that's the picture we have. I think that's the picture we all have. And,

Whether you're right or wrong, whether you believe in this or that, whenever we engage in debate and discussion, it's always with that working in our minds. It's always with so much more that we don't know than we do know. And as humans, we run around and we just kind of argue with each other all the time. And it's like, what do we all actually know? None of us know enough.

But yet we still have to live. We still have to operate. We still have to have our own belief systems because that's just how we're wired. And it gets really crazy. Like some people can be more measured about it and more mindful that that's there. But then I think probably most people don't even really bother to think about that and just go off. And they just go off in their own little rabbit holes. They go off into their own extremes. And I think that's where things get very dicey, right? I don't know.

You guys have any? Am I just ranting here? No, we're listening. No, that is, I guess, it's the 80-20 rule. 80% of the people are not like that and 20% are like that and vice versa. So it brings to mind about, I guess, the pyramid. I like to always use the pyramid analogy, all right? And apply it to everyday life.

The fact that there is a big base and a small top, it just means that there are more people doing certain things on that base and then there's less people doing other things on the top. What do I mean? I mean that when you talk about knowledge, right? There are people that do not need all this knowledge and they are living their lives. I was in Guizhou just recently and

There was a poverty alleviation scheme done by the government. They were building houses for the people who are in the mountains and rural areas and bringing them down. I visited their estate. Their estate housed about 10,000 people. They didn't speak Mandarin. I said, hello, ni hao, ni hao. They were looking at me like, because they are speaking their own dialects. So these are old people. I mean, they are living their lives.

And there are plenty more of these people in China. And if you apply that to each country's own population of that group of kind of people, then you have that base. And those people do not need the kind of knowledge and the kind of critical thinking and all these things to be able to live their lives. You mentioned, right, what do we know? We don't know enough to be and we're living our lives. So these people are living their lives and

That's just the way it is. The moment you have knowledge, as they say, ignorance is bliss. In this sense, you can really see how it works. And sometimes I really wish that I am more ignorant sometimes and I can have bliss. Because the more you know, then the more you are able to scheme and devise things. It's all in the mind. Well, the more you know, the more confused you are. That's the paradox, I feel. Okay.

Well, it depends. I believe that there's really, really in this world, there is good and bad. Why do we think that the guy who's doing the bad things is the bad guy? Does the guy doing the bad things think he's the bad guy? Or does the guy doing the bad things think he's the good guy? Yeah. You see? So, it will be an argument. And then they... And I hate it when they talk about, you know...

the insanity plea. The guy is mentally unsound, hence it's okay for him to do crazy stuff. I mean, that's... Again, it's a moral thing maybe. You can't just pass judgment on a life if it's really mentally unstable. But I guess, again, 80-20 rule or even less than that. There's a majority of us that are okay. In fact, even with...

conflicts around the world and whatever things is happening, if we're arguing political stuff, there's 80% of people who don't care what's going on. And they're living their lives. Well, I think most people don't care. Exactly. So why are we getting involved? Because it happens that we have too much in our minds. Well, it's like what Catherine said with the commenters on YouTube. It's the extremists on both ends that are actually commenting. And actually the vast majority of people aren't commenting. Like I've never commented on a YouTube video before.

But as content creators, both of you, do you guys feel a heavier responsibility on yourselves to improve your own critical thinking? Is that something that comes across to you? Like, okay, if I'm making this content and I'm putting it out there, I have a responsibility kind of like, well, I need to think critically about what I'm doing, what I'm saying, the views I'm promoting or whatever it is. Like, do you feel a heavier burden?

Yeah, and in terms of YouTube, I just don't want to talk politics at all because... Oh man, how do I put this? Let me think. Oh, you came on the wrong show today. I'm joking, I'm joking. Yeah, so on YouTube, I prefer to stay out of political topics about China because as I'm sure you guys know, if you are going to talk politics about China, there's really only one angle you can give. And if I can't give a full spectrum of...

I guess like if I can't give a full well-rounded opinion, I just don't want to give an opinion at all. So I just like how Noah went to Xinjiang. I'm also planning a trip to Xinjiang, but it's just going to show people what I see. That's it. Like go on some awesome bike rides, show what I see. It's not trying to prove that something is or is not because Xinjiang is so huge. It's like,

a country. It's bigger than a lot of countries on this earth. It's so big. There's no way that I could possibly prove that anything is or isn't. I'm just going to go and show you people what I see. And if you want to talk about politics in the comments, you do that. But that's just not my place on this channel. I'm not comfortable talking about it if I can't give a well-rounded opinion. And as for Chinese platforms...

It's kind of caused me a bit of a problem actually because I'm so caught up thinking about how commenters may respond to something. Like I'm afraid of offending people. Like it's not so much I'm worried that they're going to call me a spy. Like it's just going to happen no matter what I do. Literally everything I do. Well, that's just so ridiculous that you can just like, you know, throw it aside. It's like 008 or 007? 007.

008. Oh, it's a cultural reference. Oh no. What is that from? No, 008 because eight bar is a good word in China, a good number in China. Yeah, it's a lucky number. I feel like this is some cultural reference. 007 is taken. James Bond, yeah. Yeah, I've never seen it. You've never seen it? No. You've never seen James Bond. You don't know who Neil deGrasse Tyson is. What kind of American are you? I've been living under a rock. What can I say? She has been living under a rock, yes. But yeah, for Chinese social media, I'm always worried about offending people. So sometimes I like

I'll just be so careful planning what I'm going to say. My boyfriend Wei is like, he'll always get really annoyed. He'll be like, just say stuff. It's okay. Stop making such a big deal about everything. It's really okay. But I'm like, oh, I don't want to offend people. I'm almost too worried about it. What are you worried about offending them? In terms of certain cultural differences, if I talk about things in a certain way, people will very easily be like, oh, I'll just go back to the U.S. then if you think the U.S. is better. Well, the truth is I think some things in the U.S., I personally think that

like i prefer certain things about the us yeah and i prefer certain things about china like neither country is 100 perfect but any like cultural differences type video it's easy for me to get caught in this like vortex of like oh my god i don't want to offend people like blah blah blah so then i'll just kind of get stuck in this box and have kind of a difficult time really expressing my like actual thoughts about anything because i'm just worried people will get offended or upset stuff like that that's a very real fear yeah um it's

The, I mean, as much as we talked about the toxicity of like YouTube and platforms like that, um, the, the netizens in China can be just, if not more toxic. Um,

There is, I mean, they will go after you here too. Yeah. Yeah. And they band together and they'll crush you. Like I've seen it happen. I've seen it happen. It happened to me on a TV show that I did. Really? Yeah. So that TV show that I was actually very worried about this issue throughout the entire thing. It was kind of like a talk show between like different foreign girls and two Chinese hosts. We were all sitting on like chairs in a circle and just kind of talking about all kinds of different social issues. So there was this one question. It was like,

does if in China if a woman buys a house can that be used to say that she has achieved oh what was the thing that they called it I think it was um I don't want to use the word financial freedom because that sounds so like like pyramid scheme you know they always use those words they're like financial freedom you know like the forex traders and stuff it is what it is yeah I'm like afraid to use that word it's been like tainted to me but that's

economic independence, I guess you can say that. Yeah. So some of the girls on the show made the argument that if a woman buys a house, because buying a house in Chinese society is so important. In the US, it's not that critical. Like you could rent for your whole life and it's really not a big deal. But in China, it's such a big deal to buy a house. It's so important. So me and about, I would say about half the other girls on the show, we made this argument that if a woman buys a house, it can be seen as like the ultimate definition of economic independence.

independence. It doesn't say that if you don't have a house, you are not economically independent. It's saying if a woman buys a house,

With her own, you know, using her own money. It's not saying, like, your parent bought it for you. Like, if a woman buys a house, that can be used as kind of, like, the ultimate financial, like, independence. And people, like, twisted that on Weibo. Like, there was this account. I swear this account only exists to, like, twist people's words and get, like, the netizens angry or whatever. So they twisted our words and said, according to this show, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

a woman has to buy a house in order to get economic freedom. What do you think? And it was like a poll. It was like, do you have to buy a house to be economically independent? Or no, I think independence can be defined in various ways. So they totally twisted our words, completely twisted it. And people were freaking out. Like I've never seen anything like it. Like people were all over that little video clip of us and they were like making this huge deal. And it's like, I didn't even say that. I didn't say that you have to buy a house. All I said was,

If you were to buy a house, I think that could be kind of like the ultimate way of showing economic independence. It doesn't mean it's the only way. It's a metric. Welcome to social media. Oh, yeah. That was the first time I ever got like blasted on social media. It wasn't just me, thankfully. There was another girl in the video too. And she was like, whoa. Was the other girl a Chinese girl? She's from Malaysia. From Malaysia. Yeah. And she's on this really famous debate show. So she does a lot of debates.

So you'd think she'd be used to this. But even she was like, wow, people are freaking out.

but it was just frustrating because that's not what we said this stupid media outlet intentionally twisted our words just to make people angry it was so annoying she's getting a passionate it was so annoying i was so of course but that's the name of the game online now like like like you you would be too naive to think like well this exactly what i said and people have to translate exactly what i said verbatim and get what i meant and everything because that never happens and i i'm equally as frustrated

but that never happens. And partially it's not, it's not that they're even trying to do that. They're not even trying to really understand what you're saying.

Social media, it's a game and it's an algorithm. And if you understand the formula, it's about pushing people's buttons. It's about clickbait. It's about, you know, there's been studies over studies over studies that have shown that negative impressions spread much more virally than positive ones. Yeah. So what people want to do, especially if they have a social media channel and they want videos or clips to go viral and get more likes and click views or whatever it is,

especially if they're trying to monetize it, they know how to play that game. They know how to twist things to make it appear negative, to get people worked up, mischaracterize people and take things out of context intentionally. They don't even care to contextualize you correctly. They're after their own agenda and that's for their video to spread. And they know how to push those buttons. And that's why, yeah, it does give you pause, right? Like how...

As a content creator, it's like, what do you say? Like, how will people twist your words and use it for their own gain is a very, very scary concept and reality. And you can't control it. Yeah. No. So that's kind of gotten in my head about posting on Chinese social media. Like, especially after that happened, I'm like, oh my gosh, like, how can they possibly twist my words? How can they like, what if this blows up on somewhere social media and everyone's like, you know, freaking out that I offended them or whatever. So that's been a bit of a problem.

on Chinese social media but on YouTube not so much because my content is very like exploration based it's just kind of showing my life being in China I'm showing like the AMWF relationship lifestyle like AMWF Asian male white female she taught me that acronym what is AMWF you don't know Asian male white female relationship what Asian male white female

Asian male, white female. Relationship, yeah. AMWF. Is that a thing? Yes, it is. Look up the AMWF hashtag on Instagram or Facebook. That's an actual acronym? Oh, no, it's real. I didn't make this up. And it's all over Facebook. There's all these AMWF dating groups and stuff. I...

I am going to lock myself in a room and go down a deep rabbit hole with that hashtag. Oh, go on down there. Yeah, there's tons of Facebook groups and tons of things about it. You really didn't hear about that? I don't know. No. Oh, my goodness. No, I didn't know about that. Yeah, get on Facebook and Instagram. AMWF. Yes. Oh, that is great. That is beautiful. Oh, my God. That is so beautiful. I love that. Yeah.

So it's a community of people just talking about Asian guys dating white females? Yeah, because we're the minority of the Asian-white mixed couples. It's almost all white male, Asian female. And it's very uncommon to see the opposite, especially when the woman is from one country and the man was born in another. As opposed to if you're Chinese-American with, for example, a white American or a black American, that's not quite so extreme.

So there's like two parts of the AMWF community. One is like we were born and raised in the same country. And then there's like another extreme of like one of us literally immigrated somewhere. Well, that's you. Yeah, I'm like in that category. But I think all of them are really interesting. Like I really love seeing AMWF content like on Instagram, on YouTube, on Facebook. It's a mathematical permutation. It's an anomaly. I'm all about it right now. Okay, so this is something I've actually never talked about on the show.

But having you here, I'd be remiss not to try to explore this subject with you. Growing up in the States as an Asian male, I've always had this, I don't know, this feeling of inadequacy, social anxiety.

Because I grew up in a place in New Jersey. In my community, there was really no, I didn't really have any Asian friends. So I was surrounded by all white people, black people, just no Asians, right? And that was fine. At the time, I never thought anything of it. That's why I grew up. But when it came to social activities, especially activities, social parties or something like that, where there were going to be girls there.

And there was never Asian girls there. It was in my community. I lived in the suburbs in New Jersey. It was all pretty much white girls. And I was like the token Asian guy. I was the token Asian guy in my community of friends. Not to say in all of New Jersey. And

I never could put my finger on it at the time, but now I'm very clear that I was just, it was just feelings of inadequacy and social anxiety that I was feeling where I always felt so, so disproportionately nervous to confront or approach or talk to a white girl versus an Asian girl. And,

For me, I just felt like there was always this... In my head, I was always just played like the stereotype and the stigma of the Asian male not being a real man's man in American society and culture, right? Pop culture, movies, Hollywood. They depict that all the time. And...

That got to me. Not that I was aware that it was happening, but in hindsight, it definitely got to me where I would feel like there would be no way a white girl would be sexually interested in me. Yeah. And that messed me up a lot in terms of being social. So from your perspective, because you also grew up in America, right? Yeah. You grew up there, right? Yeah. And-

Like, you're a white girl now, obviously you're AMWF, you're all about it, you're living it. Like, from your perspective, what goes through your mind when I tell you that? When I tell you, like, what I just told you? Sounds like a lot of the guys in the AMWF groups. That's a very common topic of discussion. Like, that's a very real problem.

That's a very real problem. Like, I've heard that from other, like, Asian Americans I met back in the U.S. too. I mean, it's real. Like, in the U.S., Asian women tend to be viewed as, like, this... Sex objects. It's so easy to, like, walk into, like, offensive territory here. Like, people in the U.S. get offended so easily. But for real, though, it's... I mean, Asian women are seen as being, like, this exotic, beautiful thing. They're hyper-sexualized. Yes, exactly. They're hyper-sexualized. And people tend to have these associations with them that they're going to be so obedient, like, perfect wife. And, like, you know, there's all kinds of...

quote-unquote positive associations with Asian women that would make a man drawn to them. But as for Asian men, I mean, media really hasn't... Media has given them the short end of the stick, you know? Well, quite literally, because there's the small penis stereotype. Yes, I was going to bring that up. Right? I mean, that's exactly the short end of the stick. That's literally the short end of the stick. And not only the small penis stereotype, but there's like the nerdy, weak, unathletic. Haven't they watched Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan?

But see, that's also another stereotype. My friend who's a film director, he's a co-host, Howie, on the show. He brings this up all the time. Because we talk about Hollywood and he's like, yes, but the only roles that Asian leads get are like Kung Fu people. Like, I mean, that's it. And they're never sexualized.

You never see them romantically kissing and there's never really a love scene with a non-Asian counterpart. It's never really happened. And it's brainwashing in itself. It's brainwashing, but then my other co-host, Eric, he argues on the other... He doesn't argue on this side, but he plays devil's advocate and he's like, it's reflective of the proportion of people who are in Hollywood. How many Asian actors...

compared to like white actors black actors you know latino actors whatever are there and there's just a smaller percentage and population of them um so like why would we get all these like leading man roles like it just doesn't depict i guess the the percentages i guess i don't know that's that's i think what he would say i might be misquoting him yeah

But I don't know. Going back to what you're saying, so it's a very common thing. And I would assume it's a very common thing. But then I have friends, I have a friend who I've said this to and he doesn't get it. He's like, no way, man. I'm dating a white girl all the time. And he's Asian, he's Korean. Yeah, I do know a couple of those kind of guys. They're full of confidence. I don't know what it is that makes them different from everyone else. I know two guys like that, that have just no problem at all. No issue, but...

I would say at least from what I've seen in the AMWF chats or what, you know, I've met a lot of Asian American guys, especially when I was in college. There weren't a whole lot of them in my hometown. But the overall opinion that I get or the overall feedback I hear from them is that like, yeah, I do have this sense of being inferior. Like society kind of pushes this feeling on me, especially about like bedroom stereotypes and stuff like that. Is that only in Western countries? Like Asian guys who've grown up in the West? Yeah, yeah. Mostly talking about like,

Asian American guys. Okay. So like you, okay, there's so much I want to, I want to ask you right now, but like one, let's start here first. Like, okay. So that's an, that's an, uh, that's a Western thing. Maybe. Yeah. Like you being an Asian, I mean, a white female in China. Um, do you get the feeling ever at all that Chinese guys are ever like,

shy to approach you. You know, maybe even before when you were single or even if people are flirting with you now, like, do you get the same feeling or do you feel like there's not, because there's not that same social stigma here, obviously, with Asian guys here in China. So do you feel like there's a...

a higher level of confidence, I guess, with Asian males. I think their hesitance to approach me might not be based on the same things as in Western society. It may be based more on like they're afraid I don't speak Chinese or they don't know how to deal with the cultural differences because a lot of Chinese guys just seem to be unaware of what they're thought of, how they're thought of in the West. Like I have this one friend here who's

how would you say i guess kind of like a lady killer you know and he wants to go uh travel to the u.s for like a semester kind of thing he's got some program with his professor and he wants to go to the u.s and you know he was just talking about how he's gonna get all these chicks and like we had to have a conversation about this i was like okay like i'm glad you're really confident it's a chinese guy he is chinese yeah and i was like are you aware though of the obstacles you may face like it's not going to be as easy for you as it is here like i just

hope you are aware of that we had like whole conversation he was just like what like it was like yeah like especially like the bedroom kind of stuff he was just like what like you don't know you've never experienced me i'm like yeah i know they haven't but that's just what people think and i've gotten those comments from people i mean obviously they're not like good friends like friends wouldn't say shit like that but like old classmates and stuff were like oh like your boyfriend's he must be so small or like whatever like really yes people say that so

What are you going to do? Oh my God. Yeah, it's real. But I think a lot of Chinese people may not be aware. And it's also because I don't think Europe and especially places like Ukraine and Russia and stuff, they don't have like

so many negative stereotypes towards asian asian guys like it seems to be a very like us based issue like this doesn't seem to be as serious in europe and especially in like well i think probably in the uk it's probably the same same deal i would assume but i don't know like okay because i i always get in i've gotten into this debate many times with this korean friend of mine

And I'm trying to present, like he's full of confidence. And I try to present him like, well, there is some truth to the fear or anxiety that we have. There is that thing, that stigma going around us.

in american society yeah uh not to say it's right or not to say we should buy into it but it is there to a degree and he's and he denies it he's like no he's like no it's all in your head bro it's like it's all in your head like like like white girls like asian guys too it's like it's like we're just like you know if you're good looking you're good looking it doesn't matter what race you are is this guy exceptionally good looking

He would say he is. What about you, though, as an outsider? Do you think? Because, I mean, one of the guys I met in the U.S. who had no problem getting girls, I mean, he was very, very handsome. Like, exceptionally handsome. Like, he was one of my good friends back in college and he came over to my house for our Thanksgiving and he came up and

he came over and my mother was like, whoa, like, can you like pick this one? Like, she was like, he is gorgeous. So you should audition to be a Hollywood actor and help the Asian thing. Oh yeah. Very much so. Oh yeah. I need to see a picture of this. Do you have a picture of this guy after the show? I can show you a picture. To be honest, the pictures aren't very flattering, but in, in person, he, he just has like the perfect like muscles and chest and like

really nice cut face like he's just a good looking guy I'm already forming the image in my head like a Chinese Brad Pitt or something like that yeah he doesn't look very good in pictures though so I feel like you'll see the picture and be like he's not photogenic he's not he doesn't look that good in pictures but in person like you know my mother's pretty picky like she's not afraid of giving her opinion that my current boyfriend is not very attractive like she's not afraid of just putting it out there but when she saw him she was like ooh

He's handsome. Okay. So from your perspective, because I'm sure because you're kind of like an outlier almost, I'm sure you have plenty of other white female friends that may not be share the same perspective or tastes you do, I guess. Let's put it that way. And you interact with them and I'm sure you, you're very well aware of,

When it comes to what we're talking about and the stigma that Asian men carry, let's say in America, I mean, is there truth in that in terms of there are plenty of white girls that maybe you know or maybe even the majority of them, I don't know, that would...

Not to say that they would never date an Asian guy, but that the bar is a little bit different with Asian guys? Or do you think that's entirely just a stereotype? To be honest, I'm not even sure how to answer that because all of my close friends from high school, they've never dated Asian guys or even acted the slightest bit interested in an Asian guy.

Well, that's what I'm saying. So it's just like, I'm not even sure how to... That's your answer right there. That's your answer right there, right? Yeah, yeah. They were only active... You know, I've got a couple of friends that are really into like K-pop drama stuff. So if they happen to see a guy who looked like one of those guys, I think the story might be a little bit different. But your average Asian guy doesn't look like that. So they've just never expressed any interest whatsoever at all. So I just don't know. That's the answer right there. Like what you said. That was your answer. Wow. Wow. So...

So I'm assuming that that was never an issue with you or was that like, were you just always different or was it something, an experience that you had or whatever that kind of made you an outlier in this way? - I think she's just very open-minded. The fact that she's in China right now. - Well, being open-minded is one thing. There's plenty of people that are very open-minded, but when it comes to sexually or sexual attraction,

I mean, sexual attraction is not something you can control. Yeah. Right? Obviously, that's not like... Your sexuality is not something you choose. Right? Like, you are the way you are and that's it. Yeah. So, it's not a choice thing. Yeah. So, to me, it's not really... That has nothing to do with how open-minded you are because you can be the most open-minded person in the world, but your sexual attraction is your sexual attraction. That's what it is. Okay. So...

Were you always this way, I guess? No. Or did something change? No, I was not. And I actually remember the moment when I guess I changed. It was this very specific moment. Tell us the moment. Ever since I was younger, like...

I don't know. I was never attracted to guys my own age. I always liked older men, like 30s, 40s, 50s. Like I always was related to older men. How old were you when you liked 30s, 40s, 50s? Oh, I was in third grade crushing on Alex Trebek. Okay. Oh, wow. She's different. You were in third grade crushing on guys, middle-aged guys. Yes. I could never find guys my own age attractive. All the way through like middle school, elementary school, high school, I only had a crush on maybe like two guys. Alex Trebek. Yeah. Oh, everyone was talking about Zac Efron and how cute he is. And I was like, Alex Trebek. I watched Jeopardy, like,

religiously yeah I just thought he was gorgeous yeah I thought he was just the most gorgeous thing and I really like Pat Sajak from Wheel of Fortune so you know those shows were back to back Pat Sajak was like the appetizer and then Alex Trebek was like the main dish yeah I loved older men I could not get attracted to guys my own age and this just went on and on and on I started thinking like what is wrong with me like why don't I like guys my own age there's nothing wrong with you

Are you still this way? No, I'm getting that. Okay, okay. Well, you know, older men are beautiful, but I did eventually find a way out of this problem was when I was in high school. There was this one day I was just walking in the hallway. High school was the same way. I thought my teachers were gorgeous. Our school did have really... You would have been a real problem. You would have been a real problem. Oh, we had the most handsome teachers and I would like play chess with my teachers just to get an excuse to like hang out with them without like this...

You would pose a real... She'll get people in trouble. Yes, exactly. You would be a huge problem. I never acted out. I just would secretly be like, oh, he's so handsome and find all these excuses, like play chess together or whatever. Yeah. So one day I was walking to the hallway and I saw the most gorgeous boy, my age for once, but he was like...

I believe his family was from Lebanon. It was somewhere in the Middle East. He was like some kind of Middle Eastern American. And it had never occurred to me to look at any race other than white guys. Ever since I was younger, I'd only been looking at white guys. And then all of a sudden, I saw the most beautiful Middle Eastern boy. And I was like, wow. Like,

Life changed right there. I was like, oh my goodness, like, duh, there's so many different types of people in this world. Like, why? Because I'm white, I have to pick a white person. Like, there's so many, like, this might sound like obvious, but to me, it really wasn't. Like, I was just like, I guess it was just ingrained in my mind to pick a white person, just like my parents and my grandparents and everybody else did. And I saw this beautiful boy and I was like, oh my goodness, that's right. Duh, there's all these other places with all these other beautiful boys. And just from that day on, I was like,

i just found an appreciation for guys in the middle east the indian guys asian guys just like the whole the whole asian continent i guess i was just like wow there's so many beautiful men out there and i'd never opened my eyes up to that level the playing field for guys well in her in her own mind yeah

The playing field still wasn't level for us. It was just me. For people like me and you, it was not level at all. It was not level. Okay, so who was your first... Okay, because I want to... To be accurate, right? Like Middle Eastern people are part of the Asian continent, I guess. Yeah, yeah. But let's just for the sake of argument, to simplify, let's just say... Which is why the Xinjiang guys are really, really gorgeous. Oh.

Oh no they're really They're really good looking The women there Are actually really good looking too Because they're like Really mixed They have that mixed look And it's really exotic It's like East Asia meets Middle East In a perfect way I'd be crushing on them too Yes I was quite like Interested in Middle Eastern And Indian guys for a long time You were all about them For a while Yeah I learned Hindi For two years Just to pick up boys In university That's why I learned Hindi She explained that In her videos by the way Yeah

I wanted to be able to pick up cute boys at my university. I knew it was a technology school and there would be a lot of foreign students, so I learned Hindi. I learned it quite well, actually. I was quite good at Hindi, but...

That's another. How well is your Hindi now? Terrible. Mandarin killed it. Mandarin just like sat on it. Because there's almost so much capacity and storage in your brain, right? Like when you're learning such a complex language. Unless you are gifted. And I'm not gifted. Unless you're using it every day. No, you're pretty gifted. If you were still using Hindi every day. That was the problem was that I just couldn't find it.

find a way to... It was focused on one or the other. I was living in the US, so it's really hard to be focusing on two at once. So I just had to let Hindi just kind of get buried for a while. I think if I went to India for a few months, I could resurrect it. But for now, it's just kind of like... Thank goodness you're in China. Spread the gospel here, Catherine. Okay, so your first Far East Asian crush came... Five years after the... And who was it? Was it a random kid or was it like a celebrity? I'm trying to think of who it was. It was...

Either someone from my lab group or like some other guy like men on Tinder. Like I'm kind of like struggling to like. Tinder? Yeah. I was a beast on Tinder. I prowled. Wait, how long ago was this? This is one set of Catherine that I never knew. Because when I was growing up, Tinder wasn't around yet. Well, I was in college. She's pretty young. This was college, like my second year of college. I don't remember exactly who it was, to be honest. It was either someone in my lab or someone off Tinder. So who was the first Far East Asian guy you dated?

Like, was it in the States you dated? Yeah, in the U.S. In the U.S. He was from Shandong province.

So like legit homegrown Far East Asian. Homegrown. You wanted the authentic stuff. Yeah, she mentioned that in the video as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was my... Everything's in the videos, man. Third or fourth year of... Third year of university. Yeah. Okay, so we got to check out your videos because you go in depth about all this. Oh, no, I didn't go in depth about him. Not yet. Not yet. Maybe another time. That's fascinating because I would assume, my ignorant side of my brain would assume that

That for you to like have your first dabble into like, like with a far East Asian guy, you would pick like an ABC, like someone like me, right? Like, like I went all in. Yeah. You went all in. You didn't, you didn't want any of that PF Chang's. You wanted the authentic, authentic food. Well, cause remember I'd already had my like gateway drug of Hindi, right? So like through Hindi, I was, I wasn't meeting Indian American guys. I was meeting like guys from India. I was going to like all these dates with Indian and Pakistani guys. Like,

I was already living that life. I mean, I think your experience, it's encouraging in a lot of ways, I guess. It's encouraging in a lot of ways, but obviously at the same time, we know, and I think even you would say that there is that amongst like, let's say Caucasian women in America, there is that perceived stereotype, that stigma when they look at many Asian men. Yeah.

Do you think that's changing? Do you think that's gotten a lot better recently? I wouldn't use the word a lot. Maybe it's gotten better. Because, I mean, AMWF, like, it's a real thing, but it's just, it is still very much in its own little bubble, kind of. You know, there are those couples, but, I mean, even you didn't know about. So if you search AMWF, you will see all these couples and be like, wow, there's so many of them. But if you actually look out in society, how many AMWF couples do I know that I did not meet through an AMWF group?

Like two? Like, I don't know anybody. I mean, all of the AMWF couples I met have basically been through that group. There's my one, you know, those couple guys I knew in college that have dated a lot of white girls, but really there's...

There's just not a lot of them. I only know one. And it's that Korean friend I mentioned earlier. Dating a lovely white girl. They're engaged now, actually. So, yeah. And she's like from middle America, you know, homegrown. So, yeah, I mean, it does. There is there is it is out there. Yeah. I'm just saying statistically, it's very few. And most of the ones I know of, I mean, I've seen them on like social media, but we don't really know each other in person. Like,

Like just from people I met completely organically through my university or through like social clubs and meetings. I mean, there's just very few of them. Well, I think the argument is, the argument is this, is that because of the perceived stereotypes and stigma, whether it's real or not real, whatever you believe, either way that Asian men in America, statistically, probably fewer of them

um, have the confidence to approach non-Asian women. And by doing so, they're limiting their own chances. If like, if Asian men were like fricking Italians and just like all about women, like, you know, like just like, like, like, you know, like, like huge personalities and like full of confidence to approach girls and just didn't give a shit. Maybe those, the, the rates of AMWF would rise drastically. Possibly. Yeah. That's the argument, right?

Nah, it's like self-perpetuating. Yeah. In a way. I don't know. What about Noel? You've been quiet. Like, you're an Asian guy. Like, did you have any of this growing up? Well, in Singapore, it's a little different. In Singapore, it's very different. And I would like to say that me, growing up, I always perceive the white people as like, again, superior. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Even in Singapore? For me, I don't speak for everybody. It's for myself, right? Because I guess the...

that is showing all the television dramas and movies mostly from Hollywood and you know when like I said when we meet a white foreigner a white person an American basically I would notice that

Myself and some friends, we would speak in an accent that tries to mimic an American accent to converse with the person. And you did this subconsciously? Yes, subconsciously. We will not speak our Singlish or our normal English when I'm faced with an American. So I'll try to up my English level.

sound or whatever right to try to that's me but of course as I grow along I try to just speak my own way as I'm speaking to you now I wouldn't go and say like a

Oh, you're a man. Yes. How are you doing today? You know, like, yeah, it's... Is that what you guys used to do? No, yeah. Is that how you think Americans talk? No, no, no. Okay, so back in the day as kids, that was our best... Yeah, I get it. Oh, my gosh. No, I'm serious. So, yeah, that's serious, yeah. But as you grew up, you found out how ridiculous that was, right? Exactly, exactly. Well, I think that's like Western imperialism, right? Like, I think a lot of that in...

you know, it kind of, you can find, probably trace that back to like, you know, Western countries and powers colonizing a lot of different countries all over the world. So the more we grow up and the more we dig into history and if we have a keen mind to learn, then we'll discover more things. And again, that,

either enriches or degrades the mind further versus being ignorant and you can just live life every day just being happy. Well, growing up, did you ever approach, and obviously I'm presuming a lot about you, and if I am, forgive me. No worries. Just tell me. But did you approach any white girls or non-Asian girls at all? Never. Never? There was never a chance. In Singapore, there's no...

Readily available White age White girls Yeah they're a minority So in Singapore There's basically no way Yeah And I've not gone abroad In the universities Like Australia US To have a chance To do that So for me Predominantly My life is all No chance to interact With any Other Female Aside from being Chinese If that makes sense

No, no, that makes sense. Yeah, especially in some place like Singapore, for sure. What's the future of your channels? What do you guys want to get from your channels in terms of what is the message that you ultimately want to deliver? Well, for me, I want to continue doing my experiences in China. So right now, it's been a little bit, I guess, mundane because after the Xinjiang trip, I haven't actually gone anywhere that's exciting, so to speak.

I will continue to go visit places in China for my own enrichment at the same time to video things that's interesting over there. Like Catherine said, if she goes to Xinjiang, she's going to just video the normal life there. She's not going to prove that something is or isn't. She's not going with an agenda. Exactly. So same thing for me. I'm just going to go and show at least the stuff that I think should be mentioned.

that people outside of China are unknown to. They don't have the knowledge about. And I hope that if people chance buy my channel, they can see it and they can maybe decide for themselves if this is worth something for them to digest and probably enrich them educationally. That's it. What about you, Catherine?

Kind of similar, I guess. I also want to do a lot more travels, especially after I graduate. I'll be graduating in a couple of months. So I have some really long bike trips planned. I want to go through Guangxi province, Guangdong province, Fujian. You and I, I want to just go on these long multi-week bike trips and just see everything and interact with people and just show everyone there's more to China than what you see on the media. Yeah.

The media loves to complain, but every country is a multifaceted thing. There's good and bad things happening everywhere. The media just plants this unhealthy seed of hatred in us.

I just want to show people what life is like for the actual people in China. Put the politics aside. Just look at this is a country with 1.2 billion people. How could all of them just be living in this terrible conditions that the media is acting like? There are people living happy lives here, productive lives here. There's so many great stories and interesting things happening. So I just want to share that with people.

and you know maybe inspire some people to do some more exploring on their own you know because the stuff that i do like the bike trips around nanching it's really not that complicated like it's just me and my bike and the map app you know i'll just like get a navigate my little trail around and just go explore you know just create your own adventure there's so many great things you can find around any city or around anywhere you don't necessarily have to go to a tourist destination to find interesting stuff so that's what i'm really excited about with the long bike tours

And my like ultimate dream bike tour is to go from Shangri-La to Singapore. It's like a three month long trip, but which I'm going to be joining you. Yes, that would be awesome. That's my ultimate dream. But again, it depends on the pandemic and everything. You know, right now it's not really possible to go through all those Southeast Asian countries. But that's like the thing I want to like build up towards is that.

So yeah, there's a lot of plans for the future. That's awesome. When's your trip to Xinjiang? As soon as possible. Like I'm just stuck right now because of my thesis needs to be approved. I need to do my defense, but...

sometime in like July or August, basically. I wanted to do it in June, but I'm just completely stuck because of school. So it's just whenever my defense and my thesis stuff is over, going to Xinjiang. Okay. So before we wrap it up real quick, because I want to, because you were recently in Xinjiang, obviously, Noel, you did a series of videos from there.

And there's, I feel like there's a lot of misinformation, even myself, I'm confused about what it takes to get to Xinjiang. Obviously for local Chinese people, they can fly there just like they would fly to any city. There's really no restrictions. For you being a foreigner, were there any restrictions? Was there any red tape you had to get over or get across?

No. No? Not at all? No. There's no permits to apply for. Okay. And the only thing that you need to look out for is the hotels that accept foreigners because it's a... During COVID, right? Yeah, no. But that's not just Xinjiang. That's everywhere. Yeah, I guess so. I guess so, yeah. And for those who are married, make sure... If you're married, foreigners, you make sure you bring your wedding certificate. Why do you need to know? Why is that important? Because they need to validate that you guys are married to be in the same room.

It's a true story. Isn't that interesting? I'm not joking. He told me about that too and I was like, what? My travel partner is a married man. Is that because of the Muslim tradition? I would surmise so. I would surmise so. I don't know. I don't have the black and white, but I was there. I saw it. I heard it myself. We checked into the hotel in Kashgar. My traveling companion and his wife

were checking in and the receptionist asked them for their wedding certificate and they brought it because they were pre-informed to bring everything that could prove that they are living in China for a long time. But apart from that, and then being patient when you are stopped and checked

As a foreigner They will check your passport They will check your Train ticket Or your Whatever ticket They will ask you For your phone number They will be calling To their headquarters And radioing And it will take some time Just be patient Where is this happening? So In the train stations In the airports Or on the streets Train station At points of entry Okay

Okay, points of entry. So if you're entering into somewhere, so if you have entered from, for me, I went, I took an overnight train from Urumqi to Kashgar. So when I stopped at Kashgar, there is an entry point and we were checked by the local police there because we were foreigners.

They did the checks, they asked for the phone numbers, they asked for the passports, they were doing their thing. And then even after we were let go, we were called on the phone, we were asked where we were, and the police were going to our location to have a chat with us again, just to consolidate.

Oh, just to verify what you're saying is true, right? Well, I don't know. They want to verify where you're going. Whatever they do, they're doing their thing, right? They're doing their thing. So you will probably experience this kind of stuff, but just be patient. They're doing their job. You're a foreigner. Xinjiang is a sensitive area, Kashgar especially. So just cooperate. Don't need to be impatient. Don't have to be irritated and you'll be on your way.

That's it. What do you think that is? Do you think that's because a lot of Western journalists try to sneak into...

To film whatever In my opinion, yes They are concerned about media doing false narrative on Xinjiang Because it's happened several times already And of course they are concerned about keeping the peace Because there have been those riots back in the day So any foreign entity could be the one coming in to try to incite stuff So who knows? Nobody knows They don't know me

I'm going there to vlog. They don't know that. Right? So just bear that in mind. Right? Please be very patient. But at the end of the day, you went through all the checks, but you were still able to go wherever you want to go. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. As long as you are complying to whatever they ask for, you are free to go wherever you want. So your YouTube channel is null. How do people find your channel? YouTube slash...

Noel Lee 89. So N-O-E-L-E-E 89. Or just type in Noel Lee in the search bar. Exactly. Catherine, what about yours? What's your channel called? Catherine's Journey to the East. So just search that in the bar or Yang Li Zi Dong You Ji. Awesome. So are you guys on Chinese media, social media platforms? Not for me, but she is. Yeah. Which ones? For Billy Billy, it's I am Yang Li Zi.

Okay, great. Thank you both for coming on the show. Thank you, Justin. Thanks for inviting us. It was an absolute pleasure talking to you. I had a blast. And I hope to do again sometime. Great. Okay. All right, guys. Cheers one more time. All right. Oh, Catherine, maybe you want to pour some in his cup if you're... I have a cold, so I don't know if I want to... It's fine. It kills the cold. Are you sure? Does it, though? Yeah, it kills. It kills. Okay. If you get a cold, don't come for me. All right. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.

All right, everybody. That was Noel. That was Catherine. See you on this drink. Be good, be well. Love you all.