Battling The Unseen: Rev. John A. Szada Jr. On Exorcism, Demonic Possession, & Spiritual Warfare
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Hello, this is Richard Jacobs with the Finding Genius podcast. We've got a very interesting guest, Reverend John A. Zeta, Jr. He's a chaplain at Oratory of St. Elijah the Prophet. So we're going to talk about exorcism because, you know, he does exorcism work for the church. So I think it'll be a fascinating interview. And why

welcome, Father Zeta. Thank you for coming. My pleasure. Yeah. If you would, just tell me a bit about your background and how you ended up in Exodus as a ministry. Well, okay. First of all, I was born and raised in Harrisburg in Pennsylvania. I went to Penn State University. After the graduate from the university, I entered a seminary. Down through the years, actually, I was ordained in 1978. And so then through a number of different

I was a hospital chaplain for many years, a pastor twice, and then eventually became a chaplain to a monastery of Carmelite nuns. But at one point along the way, the bishop said to me, I would like you to be my exorcist. It's interesting how often people will say, well, why did you choose to be an exorcist? Well, I didn't choose it. The bishop chose me. And that's the way it works.

So I have been the exorcist of the Diocese of Harrisburg since 2011. So I've had a number of years and a number of cases during that time. So that's how I became an exorcist.

Okay. What was it like when you were first chosen? Were you afraid or how did you feel? Like, did you say to yourself, what am I getting into? Or what did you feel like? Not really. The other thing is that while I was a hospital chaplain, I also began studies in psychology. So actually eventually received a PhD in psychology. So to me, my doctorate in psychology and my work as an exorcist are kind of like two sides of the coin. They work together in order to help

to differentiate between the purely psychological and the purely spiritual, although there's never complete separation between them, all right? There's a distinction, but never separations, because it's always a matter of both and,

never either or. And so it's a matter of learning how to differentiate what's the root cause of the issue a person is suffering from. Is it fundamentally a spiritual issue, in which case it may have psychological aspects to it? Or is it primarily a mental health issue, in which case demons exploit it and use all kinds of tricks to gain control? So there's a kind of a combination between the two, and I work together with both of them. Is there a possibility for someone to...

I guess they would call it like asymptomatic if it was medical, but can someone be influenced by demons or by evil spirits and really not, you know, but not to the point where they're really affected. They're not oppressed. They're not possessed. Everything seems okay. Maybe to the person they seem okay, but yet they're influenced. Well, you know, the interesting thing is to describe it the way you just did. That's the person who is in the most trouble. The demons will not harass a person that they already control. What do

What do you mean? Well, if a person is already living under demonic influence and going along a way which is essentially a way of evil or the way of the demonic...

the demons aren't going to harass them. They're not going to try to drive them away. They'll just keep them going the way they are. And, you know, there's a delusion involved in here. They're just already under control of the demons. And so they're not going to really harass them. Okay. So if a demon can influence or control someone at like a sub-threshold level, are they doing it, you think, to just lay low? Or, I mean, like, how could you tell that someone is subclinical in terms of being influenced by demonic activity? Well, you know...

Whenever a person comes to me, for example, one of the first things that I do after I initially meet with them is to do an intake. It's just like when you go to the doctor and you have to fill out your history, you know. We have a seven-page intake form, and I look at the person's background. I look at what they've done, what they've been involved in, what they've been connected with. And so very, very often, this gives you the clue that can tell you there be some kind of

demonic influence in their history, in their family, in them themselves and the things that they've chosen to do. So that's where you get the clue. That's where you get the initial understanding. And then what I always do is refer them for an evaluation, a mental health evaluation with a psychologist or psychiatrist. And you put all the pieces together and that's how you can tell whether or not there's really something going on here. So what would happen with someone that's subclinically affected? Do they just seem to make poor decisions like

What does the arc of their existence look like over, let's say, a number of years? There could be all kinds of different things. You know, there could be difficulties in family. There could be difficulties in their job and their situations. Or even in the house itself, the home, there can be all kinds of tensions, problems, difficulties. And then there too, there could be manifestations. There could be manifestations in homes or wherever where people are experiencing other kinds of things.

They're not being, let's say, personally influenced, but they're under attack, so to speak. Their home may be infested or, you know, those kinds of things. So, you know, it all depends on what they've been involved in. You know, if the person goes looking for the occult or looking for the demonic, they're going to find it.

When I look at Hollywood, I look at, you know, the different award ceremonies and, you know, I looked at the Paris Olympics and it certainly seems like a lot of people, unfortunately, you know, in entertainment are embracing the demonic and I guess they're going to get what they asked for or they already are. That's exactly correct. Exactly correct. Yes.

What do you see with your trained eyes when you look at, you know, the Golden Globes or, you know, people saying all these crazy things or using literally imagery of the devil and lyrics and songs? And, you know, what do you see with your eyes when you look at this? Well, first of all, I try to avoid looking at those things. But the second thing is what I try to do is I try to warn people to avoid those things. I try to...

I skim through the news. It's one of the kinds of things that you learn as a psychologist. You can't go in-depth into everything. You have to skim through things and pick up on things that are out there. And so that's what I would do. I will pick up on bits and pieces of a lot of different things in the news and so forth.

and then try to warn people as much as I can. For example, doing interviews like this, try to warn people about the things that are out there and the things you need to be very, very afraid of and to avoid. And so I do a lot of interviews. I do a lot of speaking, different places, different situations. I go to schools. I go to parishes. I speak at different conferences.

I just gave a retreat in Wichita, Kansas last weekend. So, and it was specifically on these topics of mental health and demonic oppression. So this is the thing I try to teach people what to be aware of and what to avoid. And when you speak to people that, do you speak to people that are of faith, not of faith? You know, how do you notice that different groups react to what you're teaching them? Do they react with disbelief? Do they laugh? Do they take it seriously? Like, what have you observed? Well, I think that most of the,

Places where I get invited to speak are obviously people who are already at least open to hearing what it is that I'm trying to say. But beyond that, it's just simply a matter, you don't run into those problems with a group as much as you do with individuals.

So if an individual approaches you or you're trying to deal with somebody on an individual level, that's where you may get the skepticism or the doubts. You know, they always want to come up with their own solutions. You know, I just had one the other day. Someone was talking about some kind of...

oppression that they were experiencing and they were trying to self-deliver. They were trying their own process of deliverance. And I said to him, that's where you're going to get into trouble because you can't do it. You can't depend on yourself. So yeah, you get those negative things, but those are usually happening on a one-on-one level as opposed to the group levels. Well, have you had the experience of you're speaking to a group and one person in the group is, you know, is under the influence heavily of demonic activity and they yell out or they

They call out or they disrupt your presentation? No, I haven't had that happen too often, thanks be to God. Usually I will have an individual, let's say, that we are working with. We're trying to determine if there's some kind of demonic influence. And in the middle of an interview, they'll manifest, they'll go off. But I always have a team. I have a team that works with me that's not just by myself. They're professional people, doctors, nurses, lawyers,

And so sometimes people will manifest just when you're trying to talk with them or trying to interview them. But in group settings, no, I really, thanks be to God, I have not really had that problem. When you're out and about and you're not deliberately looking for trouble, do you

Do you ever run into people where you get the, you know, like a sense that something's wrong? Like this has happened to me. It's rare, but every once in a while I'll run into someone and I just feel like something's very wrong with them or there's, you just feel like a darkness. I have no idea what it is, but what are your secrets? Yeah. And you can't do much about it when you're encountering it like that, especially if you're out in the open. And the other side of the coin is you can't help people who do not want to be helped and

And so, you know, and I think the biggest mistake that people make is regarding what exorcism is. You know, a lot of times people will approach it as a kind of a magic ritual. You know, the priest says the magic words or wave the magic wand, and that's going to cure the problem. Exorcism is a conversion process. A person has to change their life. If they have been influenced or they're under the influence of demonic oppression or whatever, it's because they did something. You know, demons just don't pick on people for the fun of it.

They have to have opened a door somewhere along the way, but allow the demonic influence in. And so whatever it is, the person has to examine, look at, and they have to be willing to make changes in their life in order to keep that from happening again. And I've had cases where a person was, on one in particular, I'm thinking of a person who was possessed and we freed her. And I can talk about it because the family has given me permission to do so, I guess for educational purposes.

So a person was freed, but she didn't change her life and she got repossessed a second time. And it was very, very difficult to free her the second time. So, you know, that's what happens. There has to be a change of life. You have to avoid the things that got you into trouble in the first place. And that's what is so difficult for people to do sometimes.

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What are some of the main gateways you've seen that get people into the industry?

involved in the demonic realm. Just look around yourself. It's drugs. It's the occult. It's the demonic. People go off to fortune tellers and to all kinds of different things. They get involved in all kinds of occult practices. And you've got the other kinds of things, the social issues in terms of pornography or addictions of any kind or even things like abortion. Or another major, major issue is Freemasonry. That in itself is a portal to the demonic realm.

So there are many, many ways in which people can be opening doors to the demonic without sometimes even realizing it. I guess maybe Ouija boards or, again, really, really deep into yoga, you know, the spiritual side of it. Tarot cards, crystals, you know, all of those kinds of things. Yes. Yeah, I remember I went into a gift shop

in Michigan near Michigan State with my family and I just felt exhausted being in there I was in there with my wife and my kids and they were looking around and I looked and there was like a lot of little curios like you know the third eye or whatever these you know there was nothing Christian in there but there was all these like icons and things and cards and everything and after 10 minutes I told my wife I said I gotta get out of here I can't stay awake and she said I feel the same way I

And we went outside and we felt much better. And then we got the kids out of there. We went to a coffee shop and I was talking to one of the people that ran the coffee shop and she's like, oh yeah, I've been over there. And yeah, I just...

feel exhausted when I go in there too. It was the weirdest thing. And the lady that ran the shop just was like, just odd or off. I don't know. I just get a weird feeling from her. So I just wonder if experiences like that, what to make of them. You know, again, they're rare, but sometimes. But no, I think you can trust them. I think you can trust the fact that you felt negative. You felt the negative energy that was in there. And it's definitely demonic presence. Absolutely.

It's really weird. But the problem is it's becoming more and more commonplace every day. And people are not biting an eyelash. They're just taking it as, you know, in stride. You know, you know, they think that devil worship is an authentic religion. It has to be respected. It is crazy.

Well, so when people come to you, obviously they want help. Is there a common story that they have or are there common elements of a story that you hear about a lot when people come to you for help? Not really. Every case is unique. It could be something in their background, something in their family history, something that they dabbled in either as a child growing up or things that they've gotten involved in recently. Every story is unique and that's why it really takes time. It's not a

a quick and easy solution. You have to really investigate the situation from all angles and then apply the appropriate remedy based upon the situation itself. So yeah, there's no real... The only common element is that people are under attack and they feel it, you know. But, you know, the causes of that are what are really unique to each case. The story arc from at least some people I've seen on YouTube seems to be the same. They get involved with the occult somehow. At first, it seems to be good...

they get maybe some powers or they feel good or they get some money or success and then it always inevitably turns on them and then they get really frightened and upset and then that's when it seems like they seek help. So is at least that bare bones version what's in common of the stories you see or...

That's a common scenario that people do that sort of thing, but it's not the only one. As I said, there are a lot of other things. For example, addictions of all sorts, pornography of all sorts. All of those kinds of things are definitely gateways to the demonic influence, yes. I have a case of a lady who, when we finally got down to the root of the problem in her home, it has to do with unforgiveness. The woman was carrying an awful lot of anger and hurt and pain from her

past from different situations, and she was never able to or unwilling to, probably unwilling to, forgive the people who hurt her. And so as a result of which, that anger and that unforgiveness inside oneself also becomes a portal that demons can exploit.

Especially in the world we live in today. Yeah, what happens to those kinds of people that they just can't forgive their past and they were abused, let's say? That's where there's a real problem. There's a real problem. Yeah, that seems like completely unfair. Well, it's, you know, in the end, who are they hurting? Are they hurting the people who hurt them? Or are they only hurting themselves? Right, they're hurting themselves. Obviously, that's the whole point. So what's the point of continuing to hurt yourself by holding on to that pain? So...

What's the difference between someone that wanted to get into the occult, maybe they've changed their mind, versus someone that never wanted to get into it? They're like, I had no intention of this, yet it happened. Is it easier to work with one of the two? Or what would their experiences be like? No, it can happen. Let's give a simple example. I had a case one time years ago, a priest who called me, and he had a young man in his parish, and

Some friends of his said, there's a house over here that's supposed to be haunted, and we want to go over there, and we want to play with the Ouija board and see if anything happens. So he said to them, and this was the story I was told, he said, well, if you get me drunk, I'll go. So he went, all right? And so he got him drunk, and he went, and he played with the Ouija board, and yes, it worked, okay?

And the entity that they contacted, you know, talked to them and so forth, and then assured them that it only stays within this house not to worry about anything when they go home. So the young man goes home, and now he's under attack. He is under physical attack at home. And he panics.

And he calls his priest and says, what should I do? And the priest calls me and says, what should I do? And I said, in this particular case, it was kind of simple because just like you said, he kind of like stumbled into this. It wasn't something that he consciously chose to do and to go into the demonic. And he made a mistake. And this particular case being Catholic, he just goes to confession and that should take care of the problem. And it did.

It was a simple mistake that he made. And so that's the kind of thing that you will run into sometimes, all right? People just play around with things and don't even realize it. Going to confession is one of the most powerful weapons we have against the demonic. Of course, having said that, in and of itself, that presents another problem, and that is the fact, what do you do with people for people who are not Catholic, who don't have that opportunity to go to the sacrament of penance as we do as Catholics?

Well, yeah, what do you do with people that are Christian or other faiths, let's say, today? That's a very, very good question, and it's a very, very difficult problem. In fact, we're getting more and more of those kinds of cases. People will go to their ministers asking for help, and the ministers can't do anything. And then they'll say, well, call the Catholics because they deal with that stuff, and they do. So they call us, and that's why, going back to that case I was just talking about with that lady, it becomes much, much more difficult because

We don't have the tools to be able to work with a person like that as we would with somebody who maybe who is Catholic. So it's a different kind of process. And it's going to be, you know, you have to work with the person where they are with their own spiritual or religious background. That's a very important point. But sometimes it's much more difficult because you don't have quite the same tools to work with. Well, what would you do? Let's say you had a Muslim person that was Catholic.

you know, being attacked by demons or was, you know, was possessed. Like, how would you work with someone like that? Well,

The first thing is, again, you have to ask the question, why? Why is this person under this attack? What did they do or what are they holding on to? All right. So you certainly can do some prayers of deliverance for them if they are open to it. But sometimes, as I mentioned with that other case, the root cause of the problem is a psychological issue. And so counseling and therapy is very, very important. It can be a very valuable tool in assisting in freeing people from these kinds of attacks.

attacks, these kinds of influences. So by all means, it's not an either or. It's not just a matter of go to the exorcist or go to a therapist. It's both. And try to do both in order to get to the root cause of the problem and be able to heal it from whatever direction it comes from. If someone is not of any faith, let's say they're agnostic or atheist, does that preclude them from being delivered?

I wouldn't say that it precludes them, but it's going to depend upon the attitude of the individual. That's very, very important. For example, why would they come for help in the first place? If they have no faith, no background, and yet here they are experiencing the demonic experience,

Okay, well, why are you coming to me? Because you don't really believe in anything, but you're under attack, all right? So what do you expect me to do for you? That's what it comes down to. So it's a question they have to face themselves to a large extent. Well, people that are not of faith that are attacked, does it bring them to faith? Or does it really not have anything? Sometimes it does. Yeah, sometimes it does. We have encountered that. That's when they come to believe that there is something more going here that they need to come to grips with. Also, sometimes it does, but sometimes it doesn't.

You know, it depends on the individual. Very interesting. And exorcism is, it's not a one-off from what I've heard. Sometimes it requires multiple sessions over a period of time. Absolutely. So you've experienced that. So what will happen if it requires multiple sessions? What's happening during each session? How do you know there's progression? Again, that's a very, very good question because, again, every case is unique. Sometimes God will allow a person to be possessed, and

And again, remember, that's important. You know, no demon can possess a person unless God has given permission for it to happen. All right. God is the one who's in control. Demons are not free agents. All right. But again, they have taken control in a sense because the person opened the door to them. All right.

So they take advantage of whatever we give them. So God allows it, but sometimes there could be different reasons for it. Sometimes it can be just for the person's own growth and spiritual belief, believe it or not. Just like you said, sometimes they can experience these things and that brings them to faith. That brings them actually closer to God in a very strange kind of way, but a very good kind of way. So again,

It's a mystery, and God alone is the one who can really give an answer to it. How has it affected your faith? How long have you been doing this? Well, since 2011, so it'll be going on 14 years that I've been doing this. I deal with it on an ongoing basis every day, and hopefully through all those years, I hope to continue to grow in a deeper faith and a deeper spirituality and a deeper closeness to Christ.

Yeah, you said you were in the hospital. You were a hospital chaplain, I believe is what you said. Right. That was before, though, I became an exorcist. Right. But there, did you see near-death experiences? Yes. And did that influence you? I wouldn't say anything more than what I already believed. On several occasions, I've experienced with people who had near-death experiences, yes. Well, I'm saying, you know, a lot of people may say, God, where are you? And they haven't heard God's voice, so they haven't experienced him. But

You've experienced a lot of things, you know, I'm sure many near-death experiences, many, many exorcisms. So you literally, you, I would say, I guess, you know, to you, you had proof over and over and over and over again that, you know, God is real and what you believe is real. Again, I just would think you've seen a lot and that would have cemented your faith versus others that haven't seen any of that.

I hear what you're saying, but we're all weak human beings and we live in a fallen world. And so sometimes you can't read the handwriting that's right in front of you, right on the wall. Sometimes you can get caught up into so many of these things that you lose sight of the truth that's behind them. So there have been, unfortunately, many cases

of exorcists for a long time who fell, you know, who fell into all kinds of sin and who lost their faith. Because don't forget, you know, we're under attack too, you know, so. Yeah, I was going to ask you, what has happened to you if you're open to saying?

Yeah, you know, I don't like to go into those personal kinds of things, but let's just say that all exorcists are under attack to one extent or another. Yes, by all means. It's warfare. It's out-and-out spiritual warfare. Have you seen, I mean, you know, again, demons lie, everyone says, which I'm sure is true, but have you seen the same demons literally pop up multiple times? Or are there enough demons, like, for every single person on Earth? I mean, what do you think it's like in the demon world, let's say?

Well, you know, let's put it this way. You know, one of the things that an exorcist is allowed to do by the law of the church is to ask the demon its name. Now, you're going to see the same names pop up over and over again. However, that doesn't mean it's the exact same demon, because actually demons don't really have proper names.

And when they give a name, it's usually associated with some kind of ancient mythological god or some idol or some pagan deity from the past. And what happens is that the name that they give you and the deity, the pagan deity that they are associated with, gives you a clue as to what was the sin that enabled the demon to take possession of this person in the first place.

All right. So the demon name is usually attached to the cause of the possession. What would be an example? Let's say sexual sin. You know, it is osmodeus.

All right. So, but yeah, there's a lot of those kinds of things, you know, you're going to hear particular names. They're usually associated with particular sins. Do the demons know you? Like when you are doing deliverance, has there been times that demons like, ah, you know, rather say to do again? Well, the important thing is not to engage in demons in conversation. So what would happen if you try to interview one? I mean, I,

You're not allowed to do that. What you're doing then, if a priest tried to do that, he would be opening himself up to demonic influence. Really? So just by interviewing one and asking it questions, the church's position is that that would hurt the person. Correct. So the church allows the priest

priest to ask certain questions. That is, for example, what gave you the right to be here? Because demons are legalists, all right? A second question is, what is your name? As we were just talking about. And the third question you can ask them is, for example, what's the sign of the time that you will be leaving here, that you will be freeing from this person, all right? So there are only certain specific questions that you're allowed to ask. Beyond that, curiosity is very dangerous because now you're opening yourself up to the demonic influence.

The last question you just asked, what will be the sign when we'll know that you're gone? What kind of answers do you get to that? You know, that's very rare. And I actually can't say that I've any, I actually personally have heard of any. Other people have. I know other demons, I mean, other exorcists have experienced that. But see, the other thing you have to be very, very careful of is the fact that demons are liars, right? So you have to weigh very carefully whatever it is, the answer that they give you or the information that they give you.

I think only once did I ever really have a hint of what a demon was going to, when the demon was going to leave. Didn't come right out and say it, but kind of hinted at it, and it turned out to be true. But again, it's not something that happens that often, and you have to be very, very careful about it anyway. Do the demons ever try to provoke anger from an exorcist so they fight with them and argue with them? Absolutely. Absolutely. It happens all the time. And sometimes the demon will actually, the person will actually physically attack the exorcist.

You know, which is one of the reasons why I always have, you know, generally two men there, as I call them, my muscle men, to keep things under control so that they don't actually physically attack me. They've come close a few times, but I've been fortunate. I mean, have you ever seen a case where like the exorcist gets into like a verbal fight with the demon? They're like calling each other names and yelling and all that. That would be very, very dangerous on the part of the exorcist. They should never allow that to happen.

He should never allow his emotions to get hold of him. If he would ever feel that happening inside of him, the best thing to do would be for him to walk out, leave the room, calm down, and then come back. So you have to maintain almost a very neutral kind of attitude, emotional attitude when you're confronting the demons. Otherwise, the demons are in control. Yeah, I guess they want to provoke you and they want to get you in that state. So that's...

Oh, have you had demons that like pretend they recognize you or, you know, I've heard that people that are possessed, sometimes they'll have knowledge they couldn't have known. Like to, you know, have you had that happen where they'll tell you stuff like, oh, I know you have a mole and you left, uh,

Your left leg and the knee. No, I've had people, possessed people, show knowledge of things that they should not know. Yes, I've had that, definitely. Not about me specifically, but about other things. So, yes, that is one of those signs in which you can tell that a person is genuinely possessed, that they do have knowledge of things that they should not know. So, yes, I've had that happen any number of times. And have you had people, I guess, speak in different languages that they don't normally know?

Once or twice, yes. And sometimes what I'll do is, almost as a test, I'll ask the demon a question in another language. I have knowledge of several languages, and so I'll ask the demon a question in another language to see whether or not they can answer it. And that has happened correctly, too. Oh, and the person will just straight up answer you in that language? Yes. Oh, weird. I mean, when you first did this, were you freaked out by anything? You know, have you seen people, like, levitating or...

eyes going back in their head or... Well, you know, eyes rolling back in their head is fairly common. And I've had it happen one time where a person levitated. But, you know, as others very experienced will say, those are parlor tricks. Those are demonic parlor tricks. They're just to kind of rile you up. And you have to kind of ignore those as well. Do you think that there's, again, as many demons as there are people? Like,

Does anyone have any sense of how many are out there, how many different arians? No, it's not so. In terms of how they're organized, yes. You know, we oftentimes talk about the nine choirs of angels, you know, the seraphim, the seraphim, and all the way down. The demons are the same way. All the demons were, in fact, angels who rebelled against God.

And they have that same hierarchical sense from the top to the bottom, just as angels do. So yeah, they're hierarchically assembled. I mean, on occasion, can you tell you're dealing with a really high-ranking one or a really strong one? What usually happens is if there are multiple demons possessing a person, there's a kind of henchman, you know, a guy who's in charge. But he'll have, you know, some minions around him and he'll push the minions out there to deal with the exorcist because, you know,

And exorcism actually, in a sense, you have to be careful how I say this, can cause pain to the demon. All right. And so they let the minions take all the punishment. All right. And sometimes what you have to do is brush them aside and say, look, I want to speak only to the guy who's in charge here. And then that person has to come forward. So, yeah, that's the way it works sometimes. Yeah.

Interesting. Is there a psychological condition that most closely mimics, you know, either oppression or possession, but is not? In the latest edition of what we call the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association, they actually have classified conditions.

All right. And not in necessarily exactly the spiritual terms that we do it, but they acknowledge that there's something out there and they actually give it a classification. My research has shown that I personally think some of the closest mental health issues that are closest to possession would be dissociative identity disorder.

That's where a person will manifest various alters to their personality because of some really traumatic event in their past. And so they seem to exhibit, quote unquote, different personalities. And that's probably the closest that you're going to get to a person exhibiting where a demonic possession occurs.

So my personal opinion is a dissociative identity disorder is probably the closest mental health illness which mimics what we would call demonic possession. But the DSM does in fact include a classification of possession, which is kind of open-ended because they

They don't know quite how to handle it. They acknowledge that it's there, but they don't know quite how to handle it. I mean, this would be very sad. I would guess it's true. I don't know. But can an abusive partner, parent, whatever it is, compromise the person so that they do become possessed through their abuse of that person? Yes. Yes. In fact, the very first case that I had of an authentic possession was a case of a father who had abandoned his

his child at birth. The father was the practitioner of a cult, a santaria, and he, when we asked the demons what gave them the legal right to be there, they said very clearly, he gave her to us at her birth. So the father, in a sense, had cursed her, abandoned her to the demons at birth, and she was possessed. That's

That's horrible. And it does happen more often than you might think. Yeah, that's just, I mean, that makes the abuser even more horrific that they've done that. They've hurt the person physically, mentally, spiritually, everything, right? Yep. Are those cases easy to resolve? Are they tougher to resolve or they just are? In that particular case, it was easy to resolve because it wasn't her fault. It wasn't something that she did. In other words, minor children, all right,

under the age of reason, especially, in a household are under the authority of their parents. And so their parents can curse them just as they can bless them, right? And so it wasn't her fault. She was cursed and she was possessed because of her father. It was easy to free her. But go back to what I said before, that is the fact that, you know, exorcism is a conversion process. And she didn't. She didn't convert in a sense. And she became repossessed

Only the second time it was, number one, her own fault, and number two, it was much, much more difficult to free her because they were the choices that she had made. Eventually, it did happen, but it was a very, very difficult process. If someone is possessed or attacked in the future, does that mean they're more susceptible to it?

Well, again, and I would say to become repossessed, it depends on them and their attitude, whether they make the changes that are necessary in their life or not. Okay. So you talk about a stock past possession is no indicator of future results. Right. Gotcha.

Well, I guess now to probably the common question, something we get, you know, the most interesting or unusual or craziest exorcism that you feel taught you a lot. Like what happened, if you can recount it? Well, I don't know. I can't say because not only have I had my own cases, but I assist with other cases. All right. I have actually assisted with cases all over the country with different exorcists. So I wasn't the exorcist at the time, but I was assisting with cases.

And I would say, you know, there's always something that can be learned, always something that can be discovered as long as one is open to them. So I wouldn't say that any one thing stood out more than any other. But in fact, you know, I've learned many things over the years. I'm always learning new things. Yeah. What do you feel like are some of the really useful, like, you know, life guiding principles that you learned from doing this? Maybe you otherwise wouldn't have learned.

No, I can't say that because a lot of it is a matter of following the rules because it's the church and the bishop who really are the primary exorcists. It's a matter of learning techniques more than anything else. And again, as I said, every case is unique. Every case is different. Every situation is different. So you have to learn how to kind of adapt and adjust based upon the situation that's in front of you. I mean, do you feel changed by having done all these? Do you feel, I guess you feel like you've

I hope I've grown. I hope I've become a better person and a better priest, but I don't think it's, you know, me to judge if I have or not. Yeah, that's what you noticed about yourself as you've done this, you know, for 13, 14 years. I just put it in God's hands and let him handle it. I just do my job. Yeah. When you have to help out, is it just the person you're helping out is an inexperienced exorcist? Or like, why would you be called in to help?

No, no, it's not a matter of that. It's a matter of support. You know, if you're dealing with, if the other person is dealing with a very difficult case, being there to support them by prayer, suggestions, you know. And as I said before, you have to be careful about not engaging in conversation or whatever with the demons. Because I had it happen one time many years ago where I started to slip into that and another priest there stopped me.

And conversely, I've done the same thing with him, assisting him. And he started to do some things and I had to stop him from stepping over some boundaries that he shouldn't have done. So it's a support, it's prayer, it's suggestion. It's all of those things. Because it can be a very draining experience to be dealing with the demonic in that way. What makes it draining? What happens? Was it like what happened to me? You just feel exhausted or what? Go back to your experience of going into that bookstore.

You were just in a bookstore. Imagine a situation in which you're actually confronting a demon. Yeah, I probably would have passed out. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, it was really weird. I literally felt like I couldn't stay awake. I was like, you know, it was crazy. Yeah. So I guess some of the effects you felt are very powerful. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But that's not, I mean, I would think you'd have fear at various points. Like, you know, what is doing worse with.

That's the worst thing you could do, right? Because the demons feed on your fear. I tell people all the time, never fear the devil. Respect him, but never fear him, all right? Because he feeds on negative emotion. That's the worst thing that you could do. So as you get afraid, let's say during an exorcism or someone gets afraid,

what, the demon knows that and just intensifies it. There can be all kinds of things. But again, don't forget, it's a matter of faith. You have to have faith and trust in God. God's the one who's in charge, not the demon. Yeah, true, true. Any other...

Possession experiences, again, that just, I don't know, were just really unusual or interesting or... No, the other thing I would simply say is this. You know, a lot of times I get people say to me, oh, you know, they told me that they were going to kill me or they were going to kill my parents if I didn't do what they told me, those kinds of things. Demons cannot kill you, all right? They're not permitted to kill you. They don't have that power. What they do, though, is they will sometimes harass a person to the point where the person wants to just commit suicide.

and give up, all right, because they get tired of fighting. I have to be very, very careful about that, all right? Don't ever listen to demons saying that they can kill you, because they can't. But they will harass you, and that's why we need to strengthen, to support, and the encouragement of others, especially as Catholics, the sacraments, the mass, confession, all those who are weapons against the devil, and we have to be careful not to give in to those kinds of thoughts, because that's what he'll try to do, to get us to just give up,

and give in to him and commit suicide. And that's what happens sometimes, sad to say. Is there a prayer or something that people can do or say to protect themselves, not relying on 100%, but is there, what can people do to stay away from this?

Yeah, there's a lot of different things. For example, the St. Benedict medal, the use of holy water, the use of the church's sacramentals, the rosary. And as I said, going to confession on a regular basis is one of the strongest weapons that we have against the devil. So yeah, there's lots of prayers that one can say, especially the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel. Very powerful prayer. And also devotion to Our Lady of Seven Sorrows. Also very, very powerful devotion. So those are the things that people should be doing. Stay close to God, especially in the sacraments in the church. Okay, so you...

You would recommend, I guess, would someone do this at home or they would only do this when they're going to Mass, let's say? No, sure. They can do it anytime. In fact, we should be praying all the time. Correct. Yeah, yeah. Very good. Anything I guess I should have asked you about it that we haven't asked? No, I'll see.

I think we covered a lot of material and a lot of territory, so thank you. Yeah, and all right, let's think, what areas do you cover where if someone listening feels like either they're being oppressed or something's wrong with them or a family member or someone they know, where would be their first step? We have to be very, very careful here because, you know, my faculties come from the Bishop of Harrisburg, so I can only function within the Diocese of Harrisburg.

Now, people can contact me and I can give them some advice or some direction, but I can't do anything directly to help them outside of the territory of the diocese unless I get the permission of that bishop from that territory, which I have had sometimes at different places. So, yeah, but yeah, a priest is limited to the jurisdiction of the territory where the bishop has given him the faculties to be the exorcist. Okay.

Okay, so if someone lives wherever and they're having a problem, they would just go to their local Catholic church? Well, they should start there or start with their diocese, whatever the diocese is, and they can go from there. Okay, well, very good. Yeah, Father, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. You're welcome, and God bless you. Stay safe. God bless you, too. Thank you. If you like this podcast, please click the link in the description to subscribe and review us on iTunes.

You've been listening to the Finding Genius Podcast with Richard Jacobs.

Thank you.