Psychedelics With Purpose: Personal Growth, Creative Insight, & Professional Development
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Hello, this is Richard Jacobs with the Finding Genius podcast. My guest today is Paul F. Austin. He's the author and founder of Third Wave and Psychedelic Coaching Institute. So we're going to talk about psychedelics like psilocybin and how they can help with anxiety and depression and stress. And he's going to discuss some other valuable tools to help people build emotional resilience and get back to mental clarity. Draws sound like a great thing. So Paul,

Paul, thanks for coming. Thanks for having me on, Richard. It's great to be here. Yeah, tell me a bit about your past and how you got to this point with psychedelics. Yeah, so my journey with plant medicine and psychedelics began when I was 16. I grew up in a pretty traditional religious sort of small town home. And at the age of 16, I started to experiment with cannabis a little bit like

as so many of us have done. And at that age, my parents were not really keen on illegal drugs. And they sat me down one Sunday after church, discovering that I had been experimenting with cannabis. And basically, you know, my dad looked at me and said he hadn't been this disappointed since his brother passed away in a car accident. That's how anti-drug and, you know, concerned my parents were about this type of substance use. And, you know, at that point in time, it really hurt and was quite a...

traumatic sort of interaction with my parents. And I came to realize that if I wanted to continue to explore these altered states of consciousness, I'd have to, you know, kind of keep it hidden from them and away from them. So a few years later, that same friend who introduced me to cannabis introduced me to psilocybin mushrooms. I was 19 years old at the time and

and had a, you know, like interesting experience. It wasn't a deep, profound sort of transformative experience for that first one, but it definitely opened me up to the possibility that these substances could be useful if used within an intentional context. And so five months after that, I experimented with LSD for the first time and had a really, you know, transformative, insightful experience that really shifted my perception

understanding of who I was. I had internalized a lot of guilt and shame being raised in a religious family for who I was, and the community that I was raised in was pretty traditional as well. And so those early experiences with psychedelics, I maybe did it 10 or 15 times over the span of a few years.

informed my professional and personal path. And so at the age of 21, after graduating from undergrad, I moved to Turkey where I taught English for a year. During that year, I studied how to start my own online business and ended up becoming a digital nomad, traveling to 80 countries, living in Thailand and Portugal and Mexico. And one of the spots that I did was Budapest. Yeah, it was Budapest in 2015, about 10 years ago now. And I was starting to experiment with

microdoses of LSD and found them to be really helpful for my entrepreneurial path and looked around and noticed that there weren't a lot of people at that point in time talking about the intentional use of microdosing and psychedelics. And so I started Third Wave as

as an educational platform to amplify these tools within a sort of scientific and intentional context. And so over the last 10 years, you know, we've educated millions about the importance of psychedelic use. Our main thing that we do now is we train coaches and practitioners in the skill of psychedelics. We've trained about 300 doctors, clinicians, coaches in how to work with psychedelics.

And yeah, these experiences just have been really meaningful and impactful for me. And it's been pretty cool to see how the cultural conversation has changed around them because a decade ago they were still very stigmatized and a lot of people were very skeptical. And now we have, you know, Oregon has legalized psilocybin mushrooms. Colorado has legalized psychedelics and plant medicine. New Mexico has also legalized the medical use of psilocybin.

And in fact, 61% of Americans now support legal psychedelic therapy. So it's been an interesting journey. Do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions about your traveling before we get into the psychedelics? Sure, a couple. Please. I'm just curious.

What was some of the good and the bad of visiting all those places? Well, I think the really good part was I was in my early 20s at that point in time. And so I was exposed to a lot of different cultural frameworks and understandings. So I learned that, you know, the way that people do things in other countries is not the way that we do things in the United States necessarily. I was exposed to a lot of different types of food and language and sort

sort of cultural sensitivities. And so it just really helped me to open up to different possibilities. In fact, a lot of what traveling taught me, psychedelics have also taught me the value of exploration and experimentation. And I think some of the downsides were that I, you know, a lot of the relationships that I form with people in these different places that I lived for were quite temporary. And so as someone who was very nomadic, it was hard to

establish like close and intimate relationships. It felt like I was always moving from one place to the next. And so I moved to San Diego a few years ago. I've been now in San Diego for about three years. And so it's been nice to settle into one place and really connect with friends and community here and sort of, you know, invest in those relationships more than I had during my nomadic years. I don't know. How do you think psychedelics changed or affected your trips around the world?

That's a good question. Well, I think they made me much more open to the value of exploration. In fact, in the first book that I published, Mastering Microdosing is really an in-depth look into the practice of microdosing. And the next book that I have coming out in about 10 months or so is about the value of

Yeah.

and having the courage to try new things and connect with new people. And so I think the work that I did with psychedelics really gave me the courage that I needed to live a more unconventional lifestyle because, you know, a lot of my friends in college went off and they got normal jobs and, you know, or went to grad school and started making, you know, good income and supporting themselves. And, you know, I delayed that process because I really believed in the value of experience over just

financial gain in my 20s and I think that really provided a pathway for me to find my purpose and and you know work on things that were really important to me what was like um I don't know the most alien experience you've had and like you know that how did you react to it with psychedelics or or travel with with the traveling yeah then then we get into the psychedelics but yeah

But the traveling, I don't know what was like the craziest and most alien thing you encountered that maybe eventually turned into a good thing or a bad thing. Great question. So when I lived in Thailand, every April they have a big water festival in Chiang Mai, which is a city in the north of the mountains that I lived in. And as part of that water festival, people stand by the side of the road and throw water on people.

passing motorists. And so really the best way to get around Thailand is by scooter or motorcycle. And so while I lived there for a year, I was riding a scooter everywhere, which is already, you know, pretty dangerous. And I remember there was an experience that I had during this festival where

where I was taking my motorcycle back from the CrossFit gym that I had been going to. And I saw these five people standing by the side of the road, ready to throw huge buckets of water on me. And so I did my best to avoid them, but then ended up wiping out on my scooter going about 40 miles an hour and just kind of scraped up my whole arm and my leg. Thankfully, I didn't break any bones or get majorly injured. But just the very fact that an experience like that happened kind of was...

was my, you're not in Kansas anymore moment. And I came to realize- You added them, right? Or were they sorry? Or they were like- They were just laughing. Yeah. They were just laughing and they thought it was funny. And what was I going to do? I was in a foreign country and this is sort of what they do. I was just in a way a victim of it. And so after that experience, I think I ended up moving away from Thailand a month after that and-

just realizing I'd rather be in a place that is a bit more sensitive to the safety of people who are, you know, on scooters and motor vehicles and things like that. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm sorry that happened to you. Yeah, it's a good story. Yeah. All right. So let's go into the psychedelics. So your first book, like you said, was on microdosing. What were you doing? What were some of the substances and protocols and

Was it just psilocybin or was it other drugs too? Yeah, so the early experiences that I had when I was 19 or 20 were mostly with LSD. I experimented with psilocybin mushrooms as well. But LSD I found, if used in a smaller dose, was really impactful. It just helped me to feel more connected. It helped with anxiety.

I was never clinically depressed, but I definitely had moments where I felt angry or sad and LSD really helped me to step out of those modes. And so when I heard about this concept of microdosing in 2015, I started to take a very low dose of LSD twice a week for about six months. And my intention with that was to access more flow because I was working on my first book at that point in time, building my first business. And so I

I really was looking to these micro doses of LSD to help with mood and energy and focus. And the other thing is, you know, I am more introverted and in my teens and early 20s struggled a little bit with social anxiety. And so like most folks, I used alcohol to overcome anxiety.

some of that social anxiety and so when i started to microdose with lsd i you know another another intention of mine was to drink less alcohol and just be more extroverted you know feel more comfortable connecting with people and communicating with people and and things like that and and because how powerful and impactful that first protocol with microdosing of lsd was i you know i

ended up building Third Wave and educating a lot of people around it. And over the last decade, I've mostly microdosed with three different substances. Psilocybin mushrooms has been one that I've microdosed quite a bit with. It tends to be the most accessible and the easiest to acquire. Even on Third Wave, we have a mushroom grow kit that makes it really easy for people to grow their own mushrooms. And then I've also experimented with San Pedro or huachuma, which is a cacti from

The Andes and the active alkaloid in San Pedro is mescaline, which has been used for hundreds, if not thousands of years in indigenous cultures. And so I've also experimented with a San Pedro microdosing protocol. And so I think the key with microdosing really is it's not just taking...

a low dose of a psychedelic once or twice, but it's really taking a low dose of a psychedelic two or three times a week for a period of four to six weeks because the consistent use of these substances tends to help facilitate greater neuroplasticity. And that neuroplasticity allows for behavioral change, allows for a better mood, more energy. And so usually when I talk about microdosing, I really emphasize the value of a protocol in that context.

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All right. So what was it like to microdose on LSD versus psilocybin, for instance? Eddie, compare them. Yeah, that's a great question. So they're very similar drugs and substances. I would say the main distinction is that LSD is more dopaminergenic, which means the LSD stimulates more of a dopamine response. And dopamine is often tied to focus, attention, and motivation. And so both in my experience and

and sort of the broader, more general experiences that a lot of people have gone through in our courses and programs with the private clients that I work with, what I've noticed is that LSD tends to be better for creative work. It tends to be better for writing or writing

you know, brainstorming or strategic work, like more cognitive work in general. And LSD, because of that greater impact on dopamine, tends to allow for greater extroversion, more energy, things like this. Whereas with psilocybin, psilocybin is more serotonergic. So there's more serotonin that's facilitated with psilocybin. And so a lot of people who microdose with psilocybin find that it really helps them to connect with their emotions and their feelings. It really helps them to connect

with their body. A lot of people who have, for example, been on Prozac or Lexapro, these SSRIs for some time, find that microdosing helps them to wean off of these psychiatric compounds. And just as a quick disclaimer, this isn't necessarily saying that if you're listening to this and you're on those, you should just go do it by yourself. A lot of these folks have clinical or medical support

as they are weaning off these SSRIs with psilocybin. And so I find that people who are really looking to get more in touch with their feelings tend to microdose with psilocybin. And those who want just greater flow and cognitive performance and better sort of focus and motivation tend to microdose with LSD. Oh, what else have you microdosed besides those two?

So the other one that I talked about is San Pedro, also called Wachuma, this cacti from the Andes. And the active alkaloid is...

in San Pedro is mescaline. And so a lot of people who microdose with San Pedro will do it every other day for a period of time. And what some early clinical research is pointing to is that the clinical efficacy of microdosing comes down to its impact on inflammation. And so we talk a lot about the role of chronic inflammation in states of disease in sort of overall physiological health.

And so a lot of people, as they start to microdose with San Pedro or LSD or psilocybin, it's helping to reduce that chronic inflammation, which allows the body's natural healing response to come online. And if

You compare those three substances, psilocybin mushrooms, LSD, and San Pedro, the substance that has the greatest anti-inflammatory impact is San Pedro or Wachuma. And so this isn't as talked about as LSD and psilocybin, it's just starting to generate more momentum and traction.

But I have been exploring more and more what's this overlap between San Pedro microdosing, its anti-inflammatory impact on the gut and the brain, and how that can help us to better regulate our nervous system and to spend more time in a parasympathetic state, a state of rest and digest. And so we actually have a new training coming out for coaches and practitioners today.

who want to weave San Pedro microdosing for nervous system regulation into what they offer to clients. And it's something I'm really excited about because no one is, no one has really amplified the importance of San Pedro. And I think it's one of these, these, these drugs or substances that if used with intention, it could be really, really effective at a, at a microdose level. What about, you know, a chemist that's able to isolate the,

the active compounds in psilocybin, LSD, and San Pedro and create custom mixtures that would work for a particular person. Maybe they do a questionnaire and they have a little bit of depression, but they also have trouble with anger. They have whatever. And you create kind of a custom blend out of the three

Do you think that might be more efficacious if it could be done? Great question. So we have one partner that's out of Mexico named Bavani that does different psilocybin microdosing formulations, depending on if someone wants to wean off SSRIs, if they have issues with addiction, if they're looking more for athletic performance. And in those formulations, the distinction is they'll combine it with different

herbs or functional mushrooms. There might be a formulation with lion's mane and chaga, or there might be a formulation with cordyceps and reishi, or maybe ashwagandha, rhodiola, damiana is another herb that's commonly used. So I think

You know, depending on what the intention is, we can combine these different microdoses with particular functional mushrooms or herbs or nootropics. I do know some people who have combined LSD and San Pedro and they utilize that to wean off ADHD medications like Ritalin and Adipose.

Adderall. And then I also know other people who do protocols where it's like one day they'll do LSD, they'll skip a day and then they'll do mushrooms and they'll skip a day and they'll do LSD and they'll sort of go back and forth. But I think the idea of integrating all three, no one has done before. And it kind of makes me curious, like that would totally be a feasible microdose to weave in. But, and like you said, depending on kind of

the personalization of it. Like if an assessment form is filled out and someone has a greater context about what's going on, I do think as this becomes more accessible, right? Part of the challenge is, as many of your listeners know, is most of these substances are still schedule one substances. It's prohibitively expensive to do research. And so I think as they become descheduled and more legal and accessible, we can start to do a lot more research on them. But I think the greatest, the greatest sort of obstacle right now to understanding what

really how these drugs interact with the brain and the body is the fact that they're illegal, they're schedule one, and it's just, it's very expensive and time consuming to be able to do really good research on it at this point in time. Yeah, I gotcha. When you're microdosing with any of these three, are you like, whoa, are you out of it? Or are you able to function and work and talk and do your normal activities? Like how, you know, is the nature of microdosing such that you

you don't have enough to really be impaired. Right. And so the sort of definition of microdosing as I've landed on it is it's a sub intoxicating dose of a psychedelic. And that means that you're taking a dosage amount that is not going to

dramatically change your state of being. So a lot of people when they microdose, they notice, oh, you know, I have a little bit more energy today. My mood's a little bit better. You know, I'm a little bit more, a lot of folks will notice their sense of smell or their sense of taste or their sense of touch is a little bit more sensitive as well. But what I often tell folks is if you really feel it, if it's really changing your state of being, that's no longer a microdose. And I think that's important to emphasize that a true microdose is about a 10th

of a full dose. And so for LSD, that's about 10 micrograms. For psilocybin, that's about 100 milligrams of psilocybin mushrooms. And for San Pedro, that's about a gram of the powder of San Pedro. And there's nothing wrong with doing higher doses. I know some folks who will intentionally go a little bit higher, for example, as part of a therapeutic session because it opens up

the ability to feel a little bit more and get in touch with their emotions. But if someone is looking to weave in microdosing for performance or just on a day-to-day basis, and they don't want to have to dramatically change what they are doing that day, I really encourage folks to start low and go slow because you can always take more. You can't necessarily take less. And I've heard too many stories of people who think what they're taking is a microdose and it ends up being way more than a microdose. And then they just can't. Right.

you know, like basically handle themselves for the day. They need to go to the park or, you know, go for a walk or just kind of meditate and lay down. And so I think if someone is really interested in microdosing, it's key to just start at a very low dose, notice how it feels. And then from that point, decide that you're going to slightly increase if that feels basically aligned and right for you. Well, that is a three. Is it pretty easy?

if you're titrating it out yourself to make a microdose, like which one of them seems to be the most difficult or which one...

gives you still the most, let's say, impairment or effect even with a microdose? I mean, in some ways, there's an equivalency between those three that I mentioned. So 10 micrograms of LSD, 100 micrograms of psilocybin or a gram of San Pedro. You know, I think to get to the essence of your question, LSD is the most risky in some ways, because if you just overshoot it a little bit, like

A microgram, there's a thousand micrograms in a milligram, right? And so the active dose of LSD is very, very strong, which is why it is more stigmatized, which is why what happened in the 60s is a lot of people were taking way too much LSD. And so I think LSD is the one that you have to be most careful.

careful with because it's that synthetic, it's really potent, and in many cases it can be the most difficult to access. You know, there's a lot of websites now that just sort of openly sell microdoses of psilocybin mushrooms. So oftentimes they'll come pre-formulated in little gelatin capsules and you can take them pretty easily.

Whereas with LSD, it can still be difficult. Some folks will sell it in gummy form or tincture form. So I think if someone is sort of navigating into the space and they're interested in LSD in particular, it's really important to know your dose. It's really important to know the potency of what you're taking and to start at a very low dose. Like usually I recommend folks start at five micrograms of LSD. Notice how that feels. Then maybe go to 7.5, then maybe go to 10. Be

because it's really easy to overshoot with something like Allostein. Okay. So microdosing, I mean, what do people tell you that they experienced? Like what are some of the comments that, you know, I mean, tell me what you've experienced. And then you told me before, but it sounded like kind of an amalgamation of what everyone might experience. What are some individual interesting experiences you've heard?

Yeah, I'll talk a little bit about some of the clinically established benefits because since microdosing came on the scene about 10 years ago, there have been some really interesting clinical research studies. And usually the three most common benefits that we see across those clinical research studies is better mood, more energy, and better sleep, believe it or not. And so that I think sort of that properly encapsulates the story.

the sort of main core benefits that people could expect to experience. And a lot of that is because of this upregulation of BDNF, brain-derived neurointerpreted factor, which is a precursor to neuroplasticity, that because psychedelics, and even at a microdose level, upregulate BDNF, seems to have a positive effect on energy and mood. And then when someone

you know, more energy when they're in a better mood. They tend to move more. They tend to go to the gym more. They tend to go for more walks outside. They tend to be more relational and connected. And so that naturally has this, I think, beneficial effect on sleep. I think,

Some of the more anecdotal things that people are noticing is that it can be helpful with something like shingles, which is an autoimmune condition. So I think there's some really interesting early anecdotal things about the role of microdosing in helping to manage or reverse autoimmune conditions. I've also heard of people who microdose for Lyme disease, and it can be really helpful for putting Lyme disease into remission. And then interestingly enough, there's also been some early research done on neurodegenerative diseases. Dr. Justin Marchegiani

And so I think a lot of the mainstream research that's about psychedelics right now is about how it could be useful for PTSD and depression and addiction and, you know, OCD and other forms of mental health. But the cutting edge of a lot of this research is its impact on traumatic brain injury and Parkinson's and Alzheimer's and dementia that

sort of out in the wild as more people are getting into this, there's some really interesting anecdotes of people who can at least put these neurodegenerative diseases at bay, if not reverse it. In fact, just a couple of weeks ago, there was a clinical research published on the efficacy of psilocybin for Parkinson's disease. And I think there was something like 30 people enrolled in it and one single dose of psilocybin. This is not a microdose. This is a much higher dose, but one single dose of psilocybin reversed some of the effect

effects of Parkinson's, which is fantastic. And so I think it really is important that we do a lot more research, not just on the mental health benefits, but how these impact autoimmune conditions and neurodegenerative diseases as well.

And so, well, I mean, they can't really be prescribed for that. But so what are the reasons people come to you and ask you about microdosing? Like the people that buy your book, like what are they looking to achieve? Just more emotional stability or feeling better? I would think that, you know, these clinical problems people have or these medical conditions, those folks, I don't know, they're being pushed on by traditional medicine to do this and that protocol. I guess the people that are at the end of their rope are more

are more likely to seek out, you know, unfortunately it's so late in the game, but they're more likely to seek out these things, right? Microdosing and these substances to help them. Yeah, and, you know, ketamine is legal and available and ketamine is not a classic psychedelic. It's an anesthetic and a disassociative.

But it is a schedule three substance. It can be prescribed all over the United States. So a lot of people may start with ketamine as a legal prescription to potentially wean off SSRIs or address, you know, suicidality or depression.

I would say the two most common reasons that people come into microdosing are either for performance or for mental health. A lot of the private clients that I work with and the people who do our programs are more interested in the leadership, performance, health and wellness angle, largely because that's my background. I'm not a clinician. I'm not a medical doctor. And so I talk a lot about how this can help act

help us to access flow and be better communicators and, you know, sort of self-optimization, if you will. So I'd say that's a minority, but it's definitely a substantial percentage of people who are getting into microdosing. I would say the vast majority of people who are getting into microdosing are doing it as a way to self-medicate where they've maybe been on Prozac or Lexapro for many years and they're just sick of feeling numb all the time and they're

They're aware of some of the withdrawal issues that come with the psychiatric medications like SSRIs. And so they're really looking to wean off those SSRIs and microdose instead. That's a really big portion of people, as well as people who have ADHD and have been on Adderall or Ritalin. They'll look to microdosing so they don't have to do these psychiatric medications. It's sort of what I've landed on is

A lot of these psychiatric medications are just shitty drugs, and they're sort of like the best that we've had available, unfortunately, through the FDA. And it's a big part of what excites me about psychedelics is as we have more research, as the FDA potentially approves some of these as a medication, that we'll have much better drugs that people can take that don't have a lot of the downsides or side effects that most benzodiazepines or ADHD medications or SSRIs

have as part of, you know, working with them. Because at the end of the day, a lot of these SSRIs were only meant to be taken over the short term. And unfortunately, people get hooked on them for years, if not decades and times. And so I really think we need a reevaluation of our mental health care paradigm. And I feel like psychedelics offer a

a new hope for a lot of people that haven't been able to, you know, find peace, if you will. And that's not to say that they're a panacea or a silver bullet, but I definitely think they need to be a core option that folks are able to have access to. Okay. What do you see as the future? I mean, you said some states like Colorado, New Mexico, Oregon, can now legalize psilocybin, for instance. What's the next step for

for some of the states or will there be anything federal that'll happen? What do you see coming in the next few years? Yeah, it's a great question. So Oregon now has legal psilocybin mushrooms that people can access through service center and licensed facilitators. Colorado has legalized all plant medicines. So that's psilocybin, ayahuasca, San Pedro, 5-MeO DMT,

Iboga, New Mexico just passed a bill for the medical use of psilocybin. Just yesterday, Texas, through the legislature, passed an initiative to invest $50 million of public funding into studying Ibogaine.

which is an alkaloid from Iboga, which has been shown to improve TBI and reduce opioid dependence and help with overall mood and energy. And so I think that's really exciting. And the expectation is that within this administration, the current federal administration, they're very excited about the potential of psychedelics, especially to help veterans with PTSD.

And so my understanding is that within the next few years, we're going to see a lot of these psychedelics get approved by the FDA for PTSD, depression, anxiety, addiction. And so my expectation is that by, you know, 2028, there will likely be three or four or five psychedelics that are FDA approved.

We'll probably see at least three or four or five more states that pass legislation to make these substances available to their constituents. And then I would expect within the next decade, the majority of Americans will have legal access to psychedelics in some form, which is incredibly exciting. And so I think a lot of the work now that needs to be done is around education.

ensuring that doctors and therapists, psychologists, nurses, and just general, you know, the general public are aware of not only the benefits, but also some of the risks that are involved with psychedelics and that we're able to look at these from an objective lens.

create a really good sort of regulatory structure and offer people solutions that are not just sort of a band-aid for their symptoms, but actually help get to the root cause of the trauma or the challenge or situation that may be happening for them in their day-to-day life. Okay. And what's a good resource for people to go to, to find out more from you? Do they start with one of your books or like, where do they go?

That's a great question. So thethirdwave.co, or you can just type in Third Wave Psychedelics or Third Wave Microdosing. That's our educational platform. We have a podcast ourselves that we publish every week, a newsletter that we send out. We have a ton of free guides and other resources that folks can check out. So I always say go to thethirdwave.co.

We also have a practitioner training program. So if there are any coaches or clinicians or doctors who are interested in getting trained in psychedelics, we offer a 10-month certification program. Folks can find out about that on thethirdwave.co as well. And then Mastering Microdosing, my first book, is on Amazon. And then I'm also on social. I'm pretty active on Instagram, on Twitter.

or X, I guess is what it's called now on LinkedIn. So I would encourage folks, if you've listened to this and you have any sort of personal questions, just send me a DM on any of the social platforms and I'll be happy to follow up with you and help you out. Okay, very good. Well, Paul, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. I appreciate it. Thank you, Richard. This was fun. I appreciate you taking the time today. If you like this podcast, please click the link in the description to subscribe and review us on iTunes.

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