290. Supplements For Blood Sugar, Heart Health & Longevity
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Thank you for listening to the Boost Your Biology podcast. My name is Lucas Owen. I uncover the most cutting edge health information on the planet, ranging from hormones, nutrition, supplementation, fat loss, biohacking, longevity, wellness, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the Boost Your Biology podcast.

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Boost Your Biology podcast. Today I'm super excited because we'll be diving deep into cutting edge formulations and mechanisms behind these novel ingredients. So today I'm in the studio with Sophie who is the Chief Science Officer at Avia Life and Sophie I'm very excited to have you here in the studio today. Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Lucas. It's a pleasure for me to be here. Awesome. So maybe Sophie, did you want to maybe talk a little bit about, I mean, you have achieved so much. You've got a wealth of knowledge when it comes to health optimization and science. So maybe you want to talk a little bit about your journey and a little bit about your background.

Sure. So as far as I can remember, I've always been into health, you know, into healthy eating, doing sports, you know, running in the forest. I'm Swiss, so I grew up in Switzerland, in the French part of Switzerland. So Swiss people are used to, you know, being in nature and moving a lot. And I think we pride ourselves for having, you know, I don't know, good habits.

good meat, good dairy products, obviously good chocolate, which is not so longevity, but quite a lot of organic food. So I was always into it. I think my parents played a role there because they were really not strict, but they educated me a lot on what is food and what is not food.

and um and then i decided so at first i wanted to study medicine actually and um you know when you're in high school you can go to some lectures at a university and so i went to some medicine lectures and i felt like something was wrong you know i thought okay i don't think this is what i want to study and i realized it's really because

It's too late, you know, for the once the people come to the doctor, they're already sick. And then, you know, fix the symptoms, you don't fix the root cause, sometimes you cannot properly fix it, it's too late. So I thought I would rather intervene before.

And I didn't know that you could study food science, but of course we've got to eat, so someone's got to study it. And so I went to discover another university, which is the ETH Zurich, which is like an engineering school. For those who don't know, that's the school where Einstein studied. So that maybe says something about it. And there you could study nutritional science, food science, food engineering.

And since I had such a big passion for food and nutrition, I felt in total alignment with this field of study. And then I specialized during my master's in human health and nutrition and a lot in prevention, disease prevention, and even did my master's thesis on resveratrol, which is a known compound in red wine, which had quite a moment back then. Now, there are other things that are a bit more popular.

I would say I still like it, but yeah, I was checking for anti-aging potential of this molecule on human cells in vitro. And while doing so, I also tested EGCG, you know, epigallocatechin gallate, which is the green tea polyphenol and turquamine, which, you know, back then those were quite new. Now they've been around for quite a while. But yeah, already during that time, I was very much looking into longevity and

I was lucky to grow up with my four grandparents and I still have three of them actually at 35. So it's not not everyone. So I'm lucky. But I also did see the decline. You know, I did see that they were getting, you know, when they stopped working, my grandma had type two diabetes and kidney issues. My grandfather, who's still alive, has had Alzheimer's for more than 15 years. And so seeing that.

I also really realized, okay, there must be a better way to age. You know, it must be. And I started doing a lot of research on what I could give them, what supplements, what, you know, diets. And to some extent I could help a little bit, but you know, it's always harder to help the people closest to you.

The reason is people who don't know me listen to me and people nearest to me don't. But at least it really sparked something in me that I'm always looking for a solution and that I really think that there's a better way. And yeah, so I was already very much into intermittent fasting and that was 10 years ago. So I was in my 20s.

Nobody was talking about intermittent fasting. I was taking cold showers. I had read this whole paper about brown fat that can circulate in your body if you take cold showers or go into the cold lake. But everybody thought I was crazy. I was eating a very complex breakfast with superfoods. But yeah, and now it's like,

A lot of things are almost mainstream. Back then, 10 years ago, it wasn't. And people always said, but you're in your 20s, what do you care? I was already not drinking a lot. Now I completely quit. I think I haven't had alcohol in six years.

But I really believe that the earlier you start, the better. I really think that it pays off so far. I think I'm aging well, but it's not just about the outside. It's a lot about the inside as well. So yeah. And then three and a half years ago, I met a company builder, like a VC that was really into longevity. They were only building ventures in the field of longevity.

And I thought this was a perfect match, actually. I always wanted to have my own company. I had quite some corporate experience in the middle.

And I thought this was a great opportunity for me to start doing something new. It was slowly the end of COVID. I was back from a maternity leave. I have a four and a half year old son. So I really wanted to lead by example. So I really do something that I love with purpose that I felt really matters. And yeah, and then Avea was born and

Yeah, now it's a three and a half years old company. It's my second baby. We are four co-founders and I think at the moment, probably like 27 people, something like that, all fully remote. And yeah, we sell all over Europe and also in China, in Asia, in Southeast Asia. And we are starting to look at the US as well.

Wow. No, it's incredible. I mean, thank you for sharing that. I mean, your background is so fascinating. I mean, you've spent so much time researching. I mean, you mentioned resveratrol, which is, I'd say like almost 100% of my audience knows of that molecule. And, you know, I spoke about it years ago as well. Like I was sharing research articles on my Instagram, talking about interesting science behind resveratrol affecting certain cells.

brain pathways, like it's neuroprotective qualities. And now you mentioned all these other molecules. So you've now stepped foot into this company and you've been sort of responsible for

putting together these formulations like you've overlooked and developed them. So tell us about the product development phase. How did that evolve? So the first thing is we're very customer centric, right? So we are really looking at what are the pain points? What are the problems that we need to solve for the customers?

And of course, they may not know the problems that they have within their cells. So that's our job as a science team to look at what are the root cause of aging, right? So we studied a lot the hallmarks of aging, all the pathways that can go wrong, what's up with inflammation, so chronic inflammation in the body. But the customer wants to know what's in it for me in the end, right? You cannot just make a product and say, oh, it's going to target

I don't know, senescent cells. Like, okay, so what? So you need to translate this and say, okay, it leads to less inflammation, which might support your joint issues, for example, or skin issues or a lot of things that have to do with aging. So, yeah, we really look at aging in a holistic way, and we try to solve everything around that. Our portfolio is not yet complete. It's quite extensive already, but we are working to target other concerns.

And then we really, once we decided, okay, let's address this topic first, we really go into what are the best molecules? What has been proven? Do we have clinical data? Do we, you know, it's, you need to have the right balance between, you know, ingredients that are well known, really well researched with a lot of human data. And then of course, sometimes you see something really promising and you say, hey,

this might be a bit of a bet but it looks really promising like there's a lot of data there's like emerging data on humans maybe not as much as you know curcumin or respiratory troll but let's you know let's do it and try it and then um you have a lot of um i don't say that i formulate products based on reddit so of course not but i believe a lot in real life data in real situation because life is not a randomized double-blinded placebo controlled trial right all

We're not perfect. So I do. And for me, like, Redditors are like the experiment, you know? There are some people on there. I don't know if you're part of some, like, biohacker thread, but they really go to town with supplements and they take it for a long time and they go and they really report and you have a lot of them. So I also go and read a lot. I want to know about the side effects, for example. And that's where I get the most granularity.

on what's happening. So then I know, you know, I once decided not to use something because I saw like on Reddit that multiple people were reporting having more anxiety at night and more like panic attacks or nightmares. And I thought, okay, if that's a side effect, let's just not.

But anyway, so then we really go deep in the literature. We really do like summaries and really check the evidence grade. And then we're not alone. As I told you before, I'm the chief science officer and I put together this whole science team, which is quite complimentary. So we have biochemists, molecular biologists, a lot of nutrition scientists, of course, and

And then we have a scientific advisory board with medical doctors, with a pharmacologist and, um, yeah, have access also to other experts from other universities, of course. Um, so I'm not alone. So whenever I put a first draft together with my team for a product, then we fine tune, you know, we fine tune the ingredients. We fine tune the dosage also together with a broader, uh, scientific community, um, and

And then we go to the manufacturer. Obviously, we manufacture 99% of the products in Switzerland, in the Italian part of Switzerland. So then I work together with the manufacturer to source the ingredients. And there also, it's really like a dance between finding the branded ingredients, which have where the brands have really invested in the trials and the ingredients that are on par with those branded ingredients, because sometimes you really pay for the brand.

um because they invested in research but you can get the exact same molecule for way less

But you just check the quality. So if it's a botanical ingredient, then I will ask for a standardized one. It means it's very homogeneous across all samples because of course a plant is nature and the concentration of actives can be a little bit different from one part to the other, from one season to the other, from whether the weather changes. But there is a way to standardize that so that you always get the same dosage, a bit like a drug, right?

which is pure, at least 90% pure, and then comparing it with the branded ingredient, for example. And then the most important is that we double test, we get another test on the purity. So the supplier gets a test on the purity, and then we do another test for every batch we put out, we test the ingredients for purity and safety. So that means all the heavy metals,

Because you would be amazed like how many supplements on the market, especially when it's cheap, you know, on Amazon in they didn't do the double testing, you may have heavy metals, especially like protein powders, collagen powders that come from, you know, bones of animals, a lot of it can be contaminated and a little bit of it, you know,

might not do anything to you. But the thing is, when you take multiple supplements every day for a long time, those heavy metals can accumulate. So it's really important. And then of course, bacteria, you know, we do all the microbiology on the, the, the process of best, I guess, like acquiring the ingredients, like, let's say you're you submit a draft, and it's like, I've got this product idea, I've got these amazing ingredients. And now let's like, test

the ingredient let's say you finalize the product and then it's like then you have to get it imported into switzerland which is like then you've got the the customs and the taxes like that's a long and difficult process isn't it yeah so i mean a lot of it is taken on by our manufacturer luckily so we don't have to do it but uh yeah afterwards also to sell the supplements um

You need to register. Yeah, it's quite lengthy. And I think there's been really a boom in the supplement industry since COVID. So the manufacturing lead times are also way longer than they used to be.

And also because we go back and forth and we're quite picky with our ingredients and we really want the right formula. We also do customer research where we ask our customers about, you know, sometimes I make like I can tell you now I'm working on the sleep formulation for like reducing stress and helping people stay asleep.

And even though I already... That one's with or without melatonin? Without. Awesome, awesome. You cannot sell melatonin without a prescription everywhere in Europe. So there is also that because Europe is quite fragmented somehow when it comes to regulations. But also I think you can become dependent. I mean, not like a drug, but then you always need melatonin, your own endogenous... I believe more in using...

compounds that can support your endogenous production of melatonin. Actually, that's what we're doing. But then we ask our customers, here is the formula. What are your here are ingredients. I present all the ingredients. Pick your favorite ones. What do you think? Would you buy it for this price? Like, what are you already taking? And can tell you most people are taking magnesium.

Ashwagandha and melatonin, those were the three winners that people are already taking. So they really wanted something else, right? Because it wasn't working the best for them. And so, yeah, we do that. And then we go back sometimes. So from ideation until the product is on the market, it can take half a year.

if the product has a taste like our collagen activator and we need to go back and forth until we are happy with the taste and the consistency, it can take up to a year. I think the collagen activator took us a whole year to develop. Even more if you count the research that we did before because we invested quite some money in research and time in the lab. That's incredible. We'll get into the different formulations. What I'm really excited to chat about

Sophie is specifically, let's start with the stabilizer, the blood sugar supplement that you formulated. It caught my eye because there's a particular ingredient that I've seen. You may be familiar with glucose goddess. Are you? Yeah, I am.

She has used a particular ingredient called that reducos. So let's first of all, give us an overview of the stabilizer products, who it's for the benefits, the research. Yeah, let's get into the science.

let's do it so I I mean I have to say I really love glucose goddess I think she does a tremendous job at educating people on the topic she chose that one topic she's an expert and she yeah she's just explaining it so well and she's really built this community um so our product is quite similar to hers actually but uh we actually launched way earlier like probably like a year or two

Before she came out, because I think she was really focused on education and not so much on commercializing a product. But the one so it's been the formula is slightly different, but that one active ingredients, the same radicals and radicals is a white mulberry leaf extract water extract.

And the active compound of radicose, which I cannot pronounce, actually, I never get it right, but is a molecule that is very similar to a molecule of glucose. So the shape is very similar to I go into science first and then I tell you who it's for.

And so, because it has almost the same shape as glucose, it can bind to the same receptors in the body and especially already in the mouth, because digestion starts in the mouth and then further down. And so it's blocking part of these receptors. And by doing so, it's blocking the carbohydrates and the sugar.

the sugars that you eat in your diet. So not all of them, but the manufacturer of Redicos, the supplier says up to 40% or 40% on average. We've had, depending on the dish that you eat with the stabilizer, up to, I think, 75% reduction. Because if the more starchy the food is, so the more like

carbs you have, the better it works. It's not, I mean, if you eat an avocado, it's not going to do anything with your blood sugar. You do not need to take a stabilizer. It's not going to do anything, but you'd be surprised. Like people think sushi are healthy.

I just I'll jump in there. I tested sushi with a CGM device and it spiked it the highest out of any other food. Yeah, same for me. And same for at the time I had a 20 year old intern and she got like the highest peak I've seen like 11 point something like it was just crazy. Yeah.

And like higher than ice cream, than cookies, than a lot of other things. And it's really because sushi is basically just rice. And I think some restaurants, they maybe even put a little bit of sugar in the rice to make it more palatable and extra sticky. And then a little bit of protein, if you think about it, it's just like a cube of protein.

a tiny bit of fat and protein. So there is no fiber. To slow down a glucose spike, you either need fiber or a lot of fat. This is why glucose goddess says, eat Greek yogurt with cake or whatever. You add some protein and fat to it. But yeah, in sushi, that's not enough and it's just going to spike you. So if you love to eat sushi, have a salad before

take your stabilizer or product like a stabilizer and then go for a walk afterwards. If you are okay with it, then eat sashimi. Eat sashimi and have maybe a little bit of rice on the side. That's better. But anyway, so

So we got a 75% reduction of the glucose spike on the sushi. Of course, it depends on the person. Everyone reacts to different food differently. But yeah, on average, a 40% reduction, which is already quite big. So it really means that you're flattening that glucose spike. So I don't know how familiar your audience is with glucose spikes and glucose. But basically, let's say you have a business lunch. You want to impress your clients. You go to a nice sushi restaurant.

have amazing sushi. So sushi tastes good, everything good. Maybe you even have a glass of sake with it, then you're extra tired. What's happening is, so the rice gets turned into glucose, right? Into your bloodstream. It doesn't matter whether you're eating an ice cream or, I mean, it does matter on some level, you know, it's not the same ingredients. I don't want people to be like, oh, it doesn't matter. I might as well eat ice cream. But at the end of the day, it all gets turned into glucose, right? So-

Your blood is full of glucose. Your body, so your sugar, your glucose, glucose and sugar, I use them interchangeably, but goes spike, so it has a peak. And then your body says, we don't want to have all that sugar in the blood. It's toxic, right? The cells better take that in and use it. So your body, so your pancreas is secreting insulin.

which is the signal molecule for their cells to take the glucose in. So the cells are like, oh, insulin, let's take all this glucose in. And because you had such a spike and your body is just like flooded with insulin,

Your cells are getting really efficient at taking all this glucose in and then your baseline crashes. Because there is always a fine balance. There is a bit of glucose that you need in your body to just be well, to function well. And then it goes below that baseline.

And that's when you get tired. You don't get tired on top. You get tired when you crash. So it goes below. And that's what is called the roller coaster. And what do you do when you have this crash? You feel so you feel tired. You think, OK, maybe I need some sugar because that's what your body is telling you. That's that's the whole like sugar craving. Right. Oh, my God. That's what sugar cravings do.

you get this crash and then you crave more sugar, you're tired, you eat more sugar, you have another coffee, maybe you already have five coffees or you take a nap if you're lucky. But yeah, and then you eat some more sugar, it goes back up. So this is the never ending roller coaster of blood sugar. - Might quickly jump in there with, because this category of supplements, which I basically call them glucose disposal agents. So that's like the acronyms GDAs.

For my audience listening in, what we've spoken about in the past, we've looked at berberine, you know, we've looked at cinnamon, we've looked at inositol. What you're presenting here is like this reducos, this white mulberry leaf. Technically, we could classify it as a glucose disposal agent. It helps the body to, you know, regulate the blood sugar, the sugar spike. And so like if we looked at the

the benefits for the consumer it's like okay why would a consumer even care about stabilizing the blood sugar spike it's because

when it's high and it crashes, like you said, that's when energy goes down, mental clarity goes down, concentration, alertness, all of the executive cognitive benefits get disrupted. So that's why I'm a huge believer in anything you can sort of supplement with that can stabilize blood sugar because there's people out there that want to be able to enjoy a pasta and not get tired, right?

Yeah, exactly. And I don't think carbs is the enemy. I mean, I do think like you need to balance your diet. I do think, you know, you need fiber, a lot of veggies, protein. I'm not a vegetarian at all. I'm not. I understand the philosophy behind vegan and vegetarian. So I don't want to, you know, if some of your audience is into eating vegan or vegetarian, like,

You do you if that works for you. I know it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for some other people that I know. But...

Yeah. So, and then basically what happens, because a lot of people ask me, yeah, but so it blocks the carbs and the sugar, but what happens to that blocked car? Like it doesn't just disappear. So it gets turned into complex carbs. If you want, it's just like, like fiber. And so you digest to, you kind of digest it. Um, it, it, it turns into almost like a pre, um, a prebiotic. So it has you, it's like a win-win effect. Right. Um,

So it's, I don't know if you're familiar with the drug Acarbose because it works in a similar, so the effect is similar. Of course, Acarbose is a drug, so it's probably a bit more potent, but it has a lot of side effects. You get a lot of like gastrointestinal discomfort from it. You don't get that from the stabilizer. So you ask for who it's for. So I think it's for everyone because everyone has,

glucose spikes and again like a glucose spike here and there is not an issue, but we are flooded with sugar and you know carbs and like we like to eat out so and we are stressed because there's also that right. If you don't sleep properly. If you're having a lot of coffee if you are stressed we have a lot of cortisol in your system.

you're going to spike also way more than if you're calm. And also women, depending on where they are in their cycle, in the menstrual cycle, like the week before the period, tend to also be less sensitive to insulin. So it tends to also spike more and also tend to crave more sugar. So that can really help. So basically for everyone, but maybe not everyone needs to take it every day, right? If you're insulin sensitive,

and healthy and you are exercising and you eat healthy most days, which is my case, for example, you know how to balance your meal. You're following all the glucose goddess tips, but you know, the fiber and moving and all that. Um, you probably don't, it doesn't make, it's not gonna, you can take it, but it's not going to, um, your, your blood sugar is probably quite balanced already, but whenever you're eating it,

or ordering like this is what I do whenever I go to an Italian restaurant, I don't want to order just a salad and a steak. I want to have the pizza, I want to have pasta, I want to enjoy myself. So I will take it you know. So it's not a free pass to eat like a pig, but it can really help, especially if it's at lunchtime and you need to feel energized in the afternoon, it can really help. Or if you can't go for a walk after that's a good time. Yeah.

Yeah, but I will have it. Or if I have any dish with rice at home, because I feel like rice tends to spike me, I'll have it. But most of the time I take it when I'm eating out or ordering. So that's for people who are rather balanced and healthy. But then if you've got weight to lose...

you are maybe pre-diabetic or you have some insulin resistance or not even that, you know, maybe you're a woman, you have PCOS, which we know women with PCOS are more resistant to insulin and tend to spike more as well.

And or just you love your carbs, you know, no, no judgment. But, you know, you really you're like, no, I've got to have the rice and the pasta and the bread. You eat bread like I don't eat bread, for example, really rarely. Then it makes sense to to have it almost before every meal. Right.

There is an immediate benefit, but there's also a long-term benefit. If your blood sugar stays stable long-term, after a while, your metabolism is going to improve as well. You may also burn some fat in the process. This takes time and of course,

not eating whatever you want, but stabilizing your blood sugar can help long-term. Also your skin, for example, a lot of skin inflammation, like acne, acne,

is getting exacerbated from blood sugar imbalances. So over time, this can also help reduce this inflammation and also reduce the glycation in your system, right? Glycation is basically the process of like cooking sugar, cooking your body from the inside, right? And this can lead to skin aging, premature skin aging and inflammation as well. So that can get reduced over time. But yeah, I think I'm always like a diet first approach. So

you should anyway fix the source you should be healthy but we cannot do that all the time so the stabilizer any supplement is just there to help is there to supplement the healthy lifestyle

Amazing. And in terms of the formulation itself, did you want to... So it's not just the white mulberry leaf. You've also added chromium and berberine into the formula? Yes. So berberine is a known plant, right? It's a very yellow powder. It's known to already reduce the blood sugar in fasted states.

Now, we don't use so much of it that you may risk hypoglycemia. So there is no risk, right? But over time, berberine also helps with stabilizing blood sugar. I've also heard people who've taken the stabilizer and I don't want to make any medical claim, but they've taken the stabilizer for a long time and they had better blood values in general, like better cholesterol. And I think that comes from taking berberine for a long time.

because there's been some research on it. And then chromium is an important mineral that helps with metabolizing, you know, carbs, not just carbs, but you know, also fats, every any macronutrients and can also help stabilizing blood sugar. So they all work in synergy. Amazing. Now that's, I think it's a it's a really great formulation. And I mean,

The customer feedback would speak for itself. I mean, people have probably said they may have taken measurements before and after and noticed improvements. Maybe they've done blood tests. Maybe three months later, they've had a look at their HbA1c and fasting insulin. Do you have any feedback on that? Yeah. So, I mean, a lot of people actually wear CGMs.

Because customers also, I guess, you know, not biohackers, but I would say they are quite well educated in the field of health. We also have a few that, you know, have diabetes or pre-diabetic. I even had a doctor recently who has type 1 diabetes and he was wearing CGM and he really was impressed with the effect of the stabilizer.

So yeah, we get a lot of real-time feedback. I did it myself, of course, with the CGM and a few other people internally. Yeah. So, and yeah, like I said, we have a few isolated cases where they say, oh, their blood values got better. So the AB1C and the cholesterol, but not enough that I can tell you, oh, this is what's going to happen, right? Yeah.

Yeah, interesting. All right, well, let's sort of shift gears a little bit, Sophie. Let's sort of go into your collagen activator. I mean, collagen is, I mean, it would have to be one of the most popular supplement categories on Amazon, right? They're all over Amazon. They're everywhere. So tell us a little bit more about collagen, specifically your collagen.

collagen like what what makes it so you know unique unique well the the what's what makes it really unique is that our collagen activator is actually not collagen it's collagen activator so it's there to support and um enhance the production of collagen within the body and um

So there's already that. So it's vegan. It doesn't come from animal bones. So for people who do not want to take an animal source of collagen, it's a good alternative. I'm not saying it's bad to take animal collagen. I think if you love it and it's working great for you, then please do it.

But it's a great alternative. So we invested a lot of time in research before launching this product, and we researched it together with a lab at ETH Zurich, where I studied actually, with an expert, with a professor who is an expert in what you call the extracellular matrix. So anything that has to do with collagen and anything that is kind of holding the body together, because that's what collagen means, right? It comes from Greek, kola.

It means glue. So it's the glue that's holding all the structures in your body together. And people might think, yeah, collagen is just for the skin. You know, it's a bit too vain. Like I don't care about skin aging, whatever. But no, it's important for everything. Like it's the most abundant protein in your body.

It's important for your blood vessels, for your organs. Like it really holds everything together. It gives it structure for your muscles, for your joints, your tendons. So yeah, it's not just skin, right? And what we did is we wanted to isolate what are the single building, like the smallest combination of the single building blocks of collagen that has this effect that would...

actually support collagen production within the body. So we tested the single amino acids, like we broke it down, tested all of them and then different combinations of these amino acids and then chose the most prevalent one, which is glycine. And glycine is also having a moment in the longevity world because it has a lot of benefits with one spoon and collagen, like it can support sleep, supports glutathione production.

Glycine, proline, hydroxypronine are the most prevalent amino acids in collagen. We took those three and then we tested these in different ratios. When I said we tested, we tested on C. elegans, the worm that is used as a model organism because they do share some genetics with humans and they're really easy to reproduce and they are not considered animals in classification. It's also much, much easier to do research on them and on human skin cells.

That was the first stage of the study. And we could really, at a very specific ratio, we saw like a four-time increase of collagen production compared to regular collagen on the market. So we gave regular collagen as a control. And this very combination of amino acids, so very specific ratio. And yeah, we really saw an upregulation of collagen expression. Also in the cells, you could see all the genes that code

that say hey body produced collagen they were all up regulated um so that was really prominent and then so we took this ratio as a combination called it longevity and it is now patent pending hopefully we'll get the patents end of the year beginning of next year

It was a long journey. So it's been more than two years that we're waiting for the patent. It's very long. We have to work with lawyers and all that and do a lot of studies. Then we tested it on mice as well. There we did not look so much for collagen, but more for frailty data. And we saw a reduction in frailty.

So meaning the bones and the muscles, like the mice are not getting weaker. So you take it's really expensive actually because you have to use mice that are already old. So it means you kind of pay for the whole time that the mice were taken care of by someone else, right? Because you need to get to that stage. But we saw a reduction of frailty in mice, also better body composition.

in the mice. And then we went on to humans and we did a six months trial actually, where we looked at this at skin parameters for three months with a dermatology clinic in Zurich and had really promising results. So we saw a really big increase in skin hydration, which is really important actually that your skin is just moisturized. It's really important to prevent early signs of skin aging. Um,

skin texture was refined, so fine lines and everything gets just smoother. So that was already after one month. And then after three months, we saw an increase in skin elasticity. It's kind of like the firmness of the skin, which is great because topically with some products, it's also much harder to achieve. And the participants were really, really happy with that.

with their skin in general. Like I think 97% of people said they were happier with the skin after the study and that they would like to keep taking the collagen activator. So that was really big for us. So we measured it at the dermatology clinic with the Vizia. So really like a skin scan, but then also two different machines called Q-termometer and corneometer to measure the skin hydration and the elasticity. So the elasticity is like a little vacuum and then it measures how fast your skin is kind of going back. It's quite interesting.

Yeah. And we also did a, um, bio age test. So I don't know if you're familiar with. I can't stop looking at my skin now. Yeah. It goes back so, so quickly. You're good so far. Um, yeah. Um, we did the biological age test. So based on epigenetics, um, with a company in the U S called true me age. And we, um,

did it at time zero and then after six months, we did not see a big reduction in bio age. Nevertheless, we had a significant reduction of 1.8 years. Was this specifically just with the collagen product? Yeah, it was just collagen for six months, nothing else. I'm just really curious, are you repeating that test with a different product from your catalog? Like the bio age?

Yeah, like, are you repeating that test using one of your actual proper like anti-aging products? Yeah, so I like BioAge for what it is, you know, like, I think it's more of a gamification, you get a score, one test is not going to tell you anything, you need to retest and it gives you a direction.

But to be honest with you, I've tried so many BioAge brands and the results are so different across brands. And sometimes my co-founder, he likes to kind of cheat brands and he always orders two tests and puts different birth dates on the test. And then he gets completely different results, even though it's the same sample taken at the same time. So we like it, again, as a...

I thought the, one of the gold standard ones was the true, is it true age? Is that different? True age. So we use true me. That one was quite consistent as well. I think true age is also quite good. So I would, yeah. But, but otherwise it's,

Again, like so many things can can influence your bio age over time. Like if you're not getting sleep, if you're exercising more, like if you're exercising too much, you might also have a higher bio age just because you're creating more inflammation in your body. Yeah, so it's a bit complicated. I'm more a fan of bio.

other biomarkers that you can really know like the result like if you do if you take NMN or any NAD, NR, NMN, NAD precursors test your NAD levels

you know uh yeah tests tests i mean information is difficult to test because again like a lot of things can influence information but if you take a product that should lower inflammation then test your hscrp so information markers um

good biomarkers to check for like omega-3 to omega-6 ratio also gives you an indication of information and then just general vitamin and mineral panels um and actually so we don't do it now because in switzerland you cannot um you cannot sell dna tests anymore uh you need like a doctor to kind of prescribe them but hopefully this will change in the future but i actually um

like DNA tests, but you just need to do it once. But the best actually would be to have someone, a coach or a practitioner looking over your results to tell you a bit what to do. And I'm not saying, oh, like some people are scared because they think, oh, if I have a high probability to have, I don't know, Alzheimer's disease, I'm doomed. But I don't see it this way because it's really just a game of probabilities, right? It just means...

If you do not have a healthy lifestyle, you have more risk and that can really motivate people to be extra healthy. And you get a chance because

someone with a poor lifestyle who doesn't have that risk might develop the disease. And so it's not just about the genetics, right? So the epigenetics plays a huge, huge part, right? I always say the genetics, your genes are the keyboard and the epigenetic is the pianist who decides which notes are getting played and which notes are staying silent, right? It's a bit like that. And then you try to create a nice symphony.

So I'm more a fan of if you like getting a good DNA test, but then getting a session with someone who is an expert to make sense of it. Don't try to make sense of it on your own unless you are yourself an expert. And I do think the field of epigenetics is evolving. I do talk with different companies. There is a company in Switzerland called Genomee. They have developed epigenetic signatures. So it's not so much about bio age,

And more about they can correlate certain markers with whether you are having enough fruits and vegetables, whether they can see whether you're smoking or not, whether you should quit drinking alcohol or not, exercising. And I think they were developing a signature for stress as well. So I do think it's a field that's booming. I think more research is needed.

And yeah, I think TrueAge is doing a tremendous job with their bio-age test because they also do telomere lengths. They do a lot of different things. But again, those tests are actually quite pricey. And if you just take one, it's not going to mean anything. Ideally, you're doing it at least every year, but every six months, even three months if you can, but it's quite expensive. So again, I'd rather people just...

have a healthy lifestyle, you know, fix the base, take the right supplements and then do the, you know, go do your annual checkup at your doctor that hopefully some of it is reimbursed by your health insurance and start with that. Have you, have you heard the saying, you'd hope that your birthday's every 13 months? Have you heard that? No, that's great. Do you understand that? Like we hope you're aging.

is lower. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think mine is like that. I think my rates of aging was 0.80 something.

so 0.8 was it 0.8 0.8 something that's that's good yeah there's the um rejuvenation olympics happening i have a lot of clients a lot of patients and clients that are that are doing it and i'm sort of coaching them through it nice i think you need three tests you need to have at least three tests to enter so quite a budget and yeah you need to really be super diligent yeah but uh

So far, so good. My bio age is a bit below. I think I'm 31 or something like that, 32 maybe the latest, and my actual age is 35. So I'm happy with it. I don't know what's going on, but I tend to see way more reduction in people who are in their 40s. A lot of people in their 40s who are healthy, like biohacking, they have a bio age in their 30s.

My theory is in your 30s, you're still quite young. I mean, you are, let's face it, you're young. And so there's not that much to repair.

But in your 40s, that's when you expect most of the decline to happen. Because there is that tipping point. I think there was a study released that the first point is at 44. What's the first point of what at 44? There was a study released not that long ago, a few months ago. I can send it to you. That there are two major points in time, two ages where like,

you age a bit more rapidly. Oh, I see. It's like an inflection point. Exactly. And I think one was 44 and I think the second one was 65 or something like that or 60. But yeah. So, but 44 was the first I was really like, oh, okay. So I think if you are super healthy in your 40s, then because the bio age does compare you with the general population, right?

So then in comparison, you will be much younger. Yeah, very interesting. I'll deliberately not celebrate my 44th birthday then. I won't have a party for that 44th. Maybe that's the way to do it. I stay stuck at like 27. So I guess the next sort of area I'd love to dive deeper into, Sophie, is...

There was a particular I mean your probiotic supplement, the bio mind, and specifically the Nord biotic, which is an awesome name that you've also trademarked. Or it's in the process of is that already trademarked or you're in the process as well. So let me explain it to you. So, so bio mind is our product. And Nordic biotic is actually a

Danish, Denmark, Copenhagen, Danish company, and they are specialized in probiotics. They specialize in clinically backed probiotics. So they do their own research and they trademark these strains and then we buy these strains from them. But they are like one of the biggest specialists in Europe in probiotics. And then we have two of our own strains.

which are researched by them. But they are, you know, a strain of probiotics, they have many cousins. You have like the same name and then you have like little numbers and you have many cousins. So two cousins belong to us to make it simple. So we have two of our own strains called like Avea Life 01 and like 02 strains.

And we selected, so in total in BioMind you have 10 strains, so it's quite a diversity, which is important actually in a probiotic, because it's not as easy as just doing a gut health test, like a stool test actually, and then supplementing what's missing. It doesn't work like this. What you want is to have a diversity. And we do see that people who have a diverse microbiome and their guts are usually healthier, have a better digestion.

and other things because the guts is linked to so many things, right? We're just, I think, scraping the surface of what the gut microbiome is actually doing for us and who is really taking the decisions in your body.

But so we so we we included 10 strains to have a big diversity and we focused on strains that have shown effect on mental health as well, because there is a thing called the gut brain access. This is why the product is called bio mind. So a balanced balance.

gut microbiome or let's say an unbalanced gut microbiome can be the root cause of you feeling anxious and stressed for example it's a whole right there are many things you know and be like no it's my husband who is making me feel stressed and anxious yeah probably but but your microbiome as well um but um so if you balanced your microbiome a lot of things can get better like the your

your mental health, your sense of calm, but then also your skin can get better. There is even now some studies saying that there is a link between the heart health and the microbiome. And we have an advisor who is pharmacologist who specializes in that. He is studying heart aging, so all the cardiovascular system, and he is

researching specific postbiotics and probiotics. Postbiotics are the substances that are made by the bacteria. Prebiotics is the food for the bacteria. Probiotic is the bacteria. Postbiotic is what the bacteria transform this food into.

It's just to make it because we hear those words everywhere. And he is researching probiotics and postbiotics that have an impact on cholesterol levels, for example, and on heart health. So, yeah, a lot of things that we don't know yet about the microbiome. And then biomines. So 10 strains.

30,000 colony forming units, which is a lot, actually. 30 billion colony forming units because we cannot count the single bacteria, we count colonies, right? Because otherwise it would be too many. So little groups of them. So we use a lot because a lot of the bacteria actually dies.

They die before they reach the guts. It's quite fragile. They die during storage, and then they die when you take them in. And we did a test where you simulate the digestion outside of the body with some acids, and then you cultivate the bacteria again. And we could show that 20 billions actually survive. So that's a really high survival rate, which

which was better than we tested it against some random cheap probiotic product that you can find on the market. And yeah, it performed well.

more than two times better, three times better, I think. Was that got to do with the capsule technology at all? That as well, yeah. So you need to use good strains, right, that are quite, you know, resistant and all. But then we use the special capsule called a duo cap. So it's a duo cap technology. So it's a capsule within a capsule. So the bacteria are in a small capsule inside. We mix it also with B12 and B6.

B6 actually has been shown to help the bacteria actually survive as well. But also those B vitamins are important for the nervous system, so it goes together. And then they're also delivered in the gut. So that small capsule is staying intact until it reaches the lower gut, so into your intestine.

And the first capsule, so there's a bigger capsule around with some liquid, so some glycerol to help with the stability and ginseng inside. So ginseng is a bit like a nootropic, right? It can also help with focusing and energy levels. And that one opens already in the stomach. So you get that effect first and then, so yeah, really nice product with this dual release, the DuoCap from Lonza actually, which is a big company here with a lot of studies behind it.

Incredible. I haven't really heard of... I mean, it's sort of starting to make an appearance more so is that sort of technology because most people... Like the common belief and this is what... It sort of annoys me a little bit because people are like, oh, probiotics, they don't work or they just get broken down in the stomach. But...

I wish people understood that like, I mean, there's obviously there's microbes everywhere internally, like everywhere. But I think with this technology, what you're doing is you're,

you're enabling it to actually get deposited where you want it to go, right? Yes, yes. With probiotics, it's especially important that you get some kind of specific capsule, either a duo cap or a like a specific, like a coated, there are like acid resistance capsules or those kind of, you have like targeted release capsules, you have different types of capsules. So there are other good capsules in the outside and on the market. Um,

But yeah, we chose the DuoCap because we really wanted also to have these two products inside. The ginseng is a liquid, so it's not possible otherwise to mix it. And because we trust the data behind and we,

You really need to look for a probiotic that has enough colony forming units. Like I said, we have 30 billions. I mean, anything below 10 billions, I think I would not even consider, honestly. And then you have to keep in mind that everyone is different and has a different... So the microbiome is really... It's like the fingerprints, right? There is no two similar microbiomes, dot microbiomes. So...

We selected strains that have shown benefits for most of the population. But of course, you have your unique microbiome and it can very well be that a probiotic does not work for you and then you need to try something else. That can happen. So we cannot guarantee that this is going to be the solution for everyone.

And also, sometimes you just need to give it time, right? It's just like if you were not used to eating fibers or fermented foods, sometimes at first you get really bloated, right? So you need to go easy, like start slowly. And with probiotics, for some people, it can also be the case, depending on how imbalanced their microbiome is, how little diversity they have. At first, they get this massive amount of bacteria.

and at first maybe they get some bloated feeling or maybe diarrhea or constipation, in most cases it tends to improve those concerns in people. But it can also be that at first you get a bit of issues and then after, let's say, a week or two, things get balanced and then get better again. So yeah, just putting it out there for people if you're new to probiotics.

But sometimes we have a lot of feedback where people say, "Oh, wow, I used to be bloated all the time and now

it's gone like I'm good like my digestion is so much better and I had feedback from both ends of the spectrum people were like I was constipated all the time and now I'm going to the toilet every day this is amazing you know I mean we laugh but like this is a serious issue for a lot of people and I had the opposite too like people said I was going to the toilet all the time no matter what I do I have like some kind of diarrhea and this really helps to like calm it down seems to work on both ends

Yeah, no, interesting. In terms of, I guess, looking at the, I mean, your NAD pathways, I mean, this has been discussed heavily. I mean, anyone interested in improving their overall biological age has to consider something for NAD. Like, it just has to be there. If they're building a protocol for that, there needs to be some sort of component in your protocol, in your supplement stack that

addresses the NAD component. You've obviously got NMN as a precursor. That's heavily studied. A lot of brands selling great NMN products. But you guys offer a unique, like a booster. So talk us through the evolution of that product. So yeah, I'm a big fan of NMN, NAD. I've been taking it for now, I think four years or so.

And I really see a big difference, mainly in my energy level. And when I stop, I feel that it's different. And I did stop. I wrote a whole blog. We do this like founders, you know, blog articles or case studies. And so I did a whole like series on I stopped. Here's what happened. I started again. Here's what I measured. Here's what happened. And so.

One thing with NAD is to replenish the levels, right? Just by taking a precursor, but you're not addressing the breakdown. And that's where the booster comes in. So, and you're not addressing, you know, maybe certain pathways that are helping this metabolism of NMN into NAD. And so the booster contains ingredients, mainly antioxidants that help

all are like actors in this NAD pathway. So even resveratrol, of course, there is the effect on the search winds, but there is also an effect on an enzyme that is helping...

NMN getting metabolized into NAD, NAMPT actually. So it does help this enzyme. But then we have ingredients such as apigenin, which lower an enzyme which consumes NAD, which is breaking it down called CD38. So there are studies that show that apigenin can inhibit that enzyme. And then we have coenzyme Q10 in the form of ubiquinol.

which is also important in the production of energy. So, you know, most of it is happening in the mitochondria. And yeah, ubiquinol is very important to make sure your mitochondria stay healthy. And we, just like NAD,

We have CoQ10 in our bodies. Most of it is in form of ubiquinol, but it also tends to go down with age. So there are many, you know, collagen is like that, NAD is like that, ubiquinol is like that. So there are many molecules that tend to go down and that are at the root cause of why, you know, things start to go south. So...

Yeah, when you take it with the booster, I would say that you get even more out of the NAD precursor. You get more energy. And so we really think that it...

over time, like it makes the whole NAD strategy more sustainable that you keep those NAD levels high. But of course, again, these are supplements and I've seen it countless times. If you're drinking alcohol, your NAD is going to tank. Like for me, it's like funny, like people want to, you know, buy expensive supplements, but then they still want to drink and they think it's going to repair whatever. There's just no way around it. Like you need to, I,

and I don't want to judge, like I get it, like it's fun and all, I get it. And it's hard and there is social pressure, but really try to limit, like at least if you don't want to quit it and really limit it and be like, okay, it's that day of the week, you know, max, I don't know, two glasses and then for the fun of it and then do a lot of repair.

You know, but it's like that in life. Like, I think it's all about balancing the breakdown and the repair because the body is constantly breaking down and repairing. And this is what you do if you're an athlete or if you do any sports, right? You go to the gym and then you have a protein shake and you have a rest day every week and maybe you get a massage or maybe you go, you take an ice bath or whatever.

you go to the sauna. So it's a lot. Yeah, I think as long as you are drinking a lot of water, taking all the supplements, doing a lot of detox and stuff, then you are probably okay. And then some people are just genetically gifted, right? Some people, and I don't want to push anyone to consume alcohol and get the DNA test and be like, I'm blessed. I'm just going to drink. But I know that some people are just...

And I wonder if most of these super centenarians are not like this, you know, because every time you read stories of people who reach like 110, 120, and they're like, what was their secret? And you found out they were smoking a pack a day and drinking every day and having chocolates. And like that was a French woman who was just like having chocolate every day and drinking and all. And I just think they have incredible repair mechanisms that they won the genetic law.

luxury that they can do they're like the cockroaches of this world you know because cockroaches can survive radiation and being frozen so yeah they just repair whatever life is throwing at them with their extremely resilient and i think most of our most of us are not um so we need to do a lot of extra self-care which you know it's also good um yeah so nad yeah like sleep

Sleep is very important. I've seen it also when I test my own levels. Exercise, but the right amount over exercising is also going to deplete you from an AD, right? That's the thing. So also a lot of repair here. Yeah. Yeah. No, incredible, incredible stuff. I mean, we've definitely covered...

a range of different products. You've explained the science so well. You've outlined different ingredients. I mean, you're speaking my language. My audience obviously is definitely going to enjoy this episode. I do want to just make mention for those listening in, there will be a link to check out a lot of these different products in the podcast show notes if you do actually want to check them out. I'll make sure to leave them in the podcast show notes and keep an eye out for my upcoming episodes

a YouTube video, I'll be breaking down some science and outlining some more research around these particular ingredients in detail. But apart from that, Sophie, I mean, you've, you know, in terms of future directions, you know, you've mentioned that you're working on future products. I mean, where do you see Ovea Life going in the next like two to three years?

Yeah, that's a really good question. So in terms of product portfolio, like I said, we want to be really holistic about aging and there are some

like aspects and concerns that we haven't addressed yet. So I'm deeply looking into sleep now, for example, because sleep is the foundation, right? It's rubbish if you cannot sleep well. Looking into muscle maintenance, because I think for now it's still, you know, again, Avia is not a biohacker brand. If you're a biohacker, you're welcome to take it. But I think biohackers are really into taking single ingredients, mix and matching them, dosing them themselves.

It's more like to really bring these longevity molecules to everyone and like blend them in a way that makes sense and that you don't need to like be a scientist. But yeah, I admire the work of biohackers, of course. So muscle maintenance and to explain that it's not just if you're a bodybuilder or if you're a gym rat, right? That protein is important. Creatine has a lot of benefits, right? So we're looking also at other molecules that can help with muscles and

looking deeply into menopause, but wanting to take time to do this one right and collaborate with doctors that are specialized in menopause to support the symptoms. And of course, we're not...

nowhere near hormonal replacement therapies, but there are some botanicals, certain molecules that have been shown to help with certain symptoms, certain concerns of menopause. And I think it's such a huge category. I mean, it's more than half of the population.

that is going to go through menopause one day. And with the silver tsunami, as you know, more and more women will be menopausal in the coming years. So very important. Looking into detox pathways, we do see, you know, we work with a clinic here in Zurich called Ayun. They're like a longevity walk-in clinic where they do a lot of DNA testing and talk a lot with their doctors. And we see a lot of people who have cellulose

Suboptimal detox systems.

The genes, there are different phases of detoxification, but you can see that some people don't have... So again, that comes back to some people are genetically gifted and they detox whatever. They can drink alcohol, they detox it super quickly, they're never drunk. But yeah, looking into detoxification support, cardiovascular health, of course, and brain health, of course. Cognition is such a big topic as you age.

uh so yeah doing a lot of research and then outside of the portfolio you know we are very very close to our customers uh we talk with them a lot we have

fully in-house customer service. We have four people in customer service just doing that. So getting even closer to the customer, accompanying the customer in that journey, because I think the hardest with the supplements is to take them. You know, that's people who don't feel an effect. It's mostly because they don't manage to be consistent. And like, I make the supplements.

And I see sometimes it's even hard for me. Sometimes I'm tired. I'm like, oh, to mix the collagen activator now again. But if you want effect, consistency and patience is key. You need every day for at least give it at least three months because you want the cells. You want to give a chance to the cells in your body to renew. Right.

So you need to and I think don't start with like a bunch of things at the same time and then you'll be like after two weeks, it's not working and then you don't know what's doing what or maybe you get some side effects from something and you don't know which one.

So, yeah, I think we want to get closer to this journey and accompany the customers through the effect. I don't know if that's an app or what that's going to be, but we are exploring ways to staying closer to the customers. And then, of course, science. Science is at the heart of everything we do. So we will invest more into research. We are now, beginning of the year, going to start another trial with...

a company specializing in improving the effect of supplements on the vitality bundle. So on the NMN and the booster, we're going to do a lot of NAD testing in a group of people and test. We're going to really test a lot of different biomarkers, use wearables, a lot of medically approved questionnaires. So I think

I think people demand more validated supplements and rightly so. I think they deserve it. I don't even want to brag that we do studies or we test the supplements. I think it should be a given. But of course, it takes time. It takes money.

We cannot always do it right away before launching the products. Otherwise, you know, we don't have a company anymore. But more trials for sure. Today I'm speaking also with another company who's developed a new way to test inflammation very easily, like at home. So...

I want to talk with them to see if we can do another trial. We are currently doing a trial with an app called Brain Aware, where you don't need to do anything. It's just tracking how you're using your phone. It's not seeing what you're looking at. It's not tracking as in, you know, Meta is watching you. But more like it's learning the patterns of you using your phone, like how fast are you typing? How...

You're clicking how fast are you going from one app to another? And the algorithm is really good and they can correlate it with cognitive function and sleep quality. It's called brain aware.

Tyrone: Brain aware so it just naturally tracks your behavioral activities on your phone. Flori Pyke: You just need to give permission you have an app and it's just tracking the yeah and it can correlate because you use your phone like I don't know how I use it way too much but so there's a lot of data that can be like Tyrone: So it's brain-aware.ai? Flori Pyke: I think so let me see brain.

I think I've found it understand what is best for you optimize your lifestyle based on mental fitness indicators, effortlessly track you and assess your mental fitness. Yes, we're currently doing a study on with this on the also NMN and booster together.

Because a lot of people feel more focused, more energized. So we hypothesize that we would, because the hard thing is, you know, you get all these subjective stories from customers, so you know it's working, but you need to find how do you measure it?

And because one test doesn't show anything, doesn't mean nothing is happening. You just need to find a way to quantify it, to measure it. So we are trying with this because also when you do studies, it's really hard for people to comply. Like if they need to do something, if they need to do a game or something, they do it, you know, a few days and then they stop. They just drop it. So with this one, they don't need to do anything. They just need to install the app and then.

We have a, I mean, the Brain Aware company, they have a dashboard and they can anonymize all the, it's all anonymous, like all the data and like do a proper study.

That's exciting. Now, well, thank you so much, Sophie, for coming on the podcast. I mean, you've been a wealth of knowledge. I'm sure my audience is going to be highly, you know, they'll rate this episode very highly. So again, if you guys have enjoyed this episode, make sure to leave a five-star review and also check out the podcast show notes. But otherwise, Sophie, again, thanks for coming on the show. I look forward to keeping in touch.

And then, yeah, all the best with the future goals. Thank you, Lucas. It was a pleasure for me. Looking forward to listen to the episode and follow more of your episodes, actually. Hey, you know what would make your customer service help desk way better? Dumping it and then switching to Intercom. But you're not quite ready to make that change. We get it. That's why Finn, the world's leading AI customer service agent, is now available on every help desk.

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