299. Nutrition, Testosterone, DHT & More With Hans Amato
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The information provided in this podcast episode is for entertainment purposes and is not medical advice. If you have any questions about your health, contact a medical professional. This content is strictly the opinions of Lucas Owen and is for informational and entertainment purposes only.

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Thank you for listening to the Boost Your Biology podcast. My name is Lucas Owen. I uncover the most cutting edge health information on the planet, ranging from hormones, nutrition, supplementation, fat loss, biohacking, longevity, wellness, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the Boost Your Biology podcast.

What's up, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome back to the Boost Your Biology podcast. This podcast is well and truly overdue. I mean, the special guest that I have on today is someone that I have respected and heard about for many, many years. And so today I'm joined in the studio with the CEO and founder of Testo Nation. Hans, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me. This is going back a long time, like six years, Raypeat Forum. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so we actually both connect, for those listening in, we both connected. Well, we both were, I guess, like looking at each other's posts on the Raypeat Forum and I was immediately like interested in a lot of the posts that you were creating there and

sharing a lot of like wisdom and knowledge around the same sort of topics that Georgie Dinkov was sharing. So Hans, maybe let my audience know, how did you, first of all, how did you get into the Raypeat Forum and that health optimization space?

All right. So first of all, I was very interested in bodybuilding and I came across Vince Girano. Like he had a very interesting approach with like all of the eggs and the supplements he was taking, desiccated liver. It's the first time I heard about any of those kind of stuff.

I started researching, he was using a weed germ oil, vitamin E extract. I was like, okay, this is interesting. Why? And I started to research and like, what is up with like this weed germ? And I came across George's product called Tokivit. And I came across the rapid forum and it was like, okay, this is interesting. This George is talking about a lot of interesting stuff. And that's how I basically came across it. It was like, who's Pete? Rapid. And it was like, man, right. He's not even on the rapid form. It's like, what is going on here? Yeah.

But then I started researching everything. I was like going to George's profile, like reading all of his posts, going to Rapids website, reading all of his posts. So that's how I basically got into it. And it was like a big learning curve. Like you would know like with anything you just start learning because I was like interested in health and testosterone. Like man, I was like health on a different level. So that took a couple of years to like absorb and digest everything. But that's basically it. That's awesome. That's awesome. Was there anything on the, I mean, for me, at least on the Rapids forum, there was, there was,

and topics that were just not discussed in any other health forum. So immediately I was like, the stuff here is so cool and so unique and interesting. Like, did you ever, did you feel that way as well? - Yeah, like every time you feel like, man, I wanna see if there are other forums out there. I was like, okay, this is lame. I'm just gonna go back to the RightBeat forum. Like this is really like, it felt like cutting edge stuff at the time.

Was there anything in particular early days that sort of caught your attention in relation to any specific biological pathway, maybe relating to like, I don't know, serotonin, dopamine, thyroid? Was there anything in particular where you're like, wow, this sort of blew your mind?

Yeah, what I really liked about Red Beat and Georgia is that they were also interested in hormones. Like every time I find someone back in that day that was interested in health, they never ever talked about hormones like the androgens. And it was like, oh, Pete is talking about testosterone, DHT. And then Georgia was talking about that. It's like, wow, this is really like what I'm interested in. And then they're connecting with everything else, like guts, thyroid, estrogen, like all of the other stuff that I was more or less unaware of, mitochondria.

So that, that took me from getting more like a whole picture of everything. And then I realized it's like, man, how can you ever just focus on one aspect without getting this broad understanding of everything else? It's like, if you don't understand mitochondria, if you don't understand like all of the interactions with all of the other organs, it's like you, you, you can't understand even like one aspect if you don't understand the rest. A hundred percent, man. I love that as well. I mean, that's definitely something that I was like, um,

If you can understand one body system, so for example, if you can understand

gut health, the true understanding is being able to link it and sort of extrapolate information and link it back to different systems. In particular, one that stood out to me at least, and I'm sure it did for you as well, was understanding the actual role of serotonin. So maybe, I mean, you can talk extensively about serotonin. Explain to my listeners how it's sort of like there's a lot of myths around serotonin.

Yeah. All right. So when I just got in the right before me, it was like almost like the first time I learned about it. And I have to admit, like I was very biased back then. So when I started learning about it, it's like I was, okay, serotonin is bad. We don't need it. This is awful. But the more you start researching anything really, even like testosterone, DHT, it's like you understand there's so much complexity to it. And like the more research I did, the more I understood like this is not black and white as normal.

I would say even Ray Peet and Georgie made it out to be. Like there's over 14 serotonin receptors. The enzymes that create it and break it down is different in different areas of the brain. So just saying like serotonin is bad is not right, right? Because like this part of the brain has a little, and this part of the brain has a lot.

And to say like, you should be lowering, you should be increasing it. You should be doing this. That's like, you have no idea because you don't know what's desensitized. You don't know what's hypersensitized. You don't even know the labels because if you taste your blood for serotonin or urine, that's giving you no idea how much serotonin is in the brain. So the way I really go about things is like, I prefer to work on things that I can taste. So if someone is making the argument, I am, I don't know, resistant to my serotonin. It's like, how do you know? Right. Have you tasted it? Have you, have you done a, uh,

some form of a test like the most fundamental test that we can do is like we can use the ssri or we can use like tryptophan or better 5-htp to see like what the response is to that compound and then to judge it but even that is very subjective because you don't know what's going on in the brain so that's kind of how my understanding changed and even to make it even more complex and maybe this is not the answer you were going for but when you look at different ssris all of the different ssris even though they are ssris have different effects in the body

And then people's like, well, serotonin is good. Okay, well, this one is working on the Sigma-1 receptor and this one is increasing allopregnanolone and this one is doing this and that. It's like, well, they have multitude of different things. So for me, it was like, okay, you know what? I'm not even going to be interested in serotonin anymore because it feels like it's just too complicated and we can't really taste it like us people outside of a lab. And then I was like, okay, so what do we know? It's like, all right, we know that tomatoes are

pineapples, bananas, and so on, they are rich in serotonin. It's like, okay, what happens? This would be a good theory. What happens when you eat a banana? Because like serotonin, we know when you take an SSRI, it can cause PSSD, it can cause erectile dysfunction, it can spike your prolactin, it can be hypermetabolic. There's a lot of side effects that can come from actually serotonin.

So instead of just fear mongering everyone, like I would feel right. Be dead is like, don't stay like he said, like, don't eat serotonin rich foods. Why? It's like a, like a tomato. It's like, okay, what would happen if you did eat a banana or a tomato? What we did see, there was a study that had people eat. I think it was three bananas.

So serotonin, or at least the metabolite of serotonin, spiked fourfold in the urine, but in the blood it didn't, which means there was enzymes that was breaking down the serotonin in the digestive tract before it even entered into the body, not changing your serotonin. So actually serotonin is going to cause vasoconstriction and pulled hands and feet and all of this kind of stuff, but bananas didn't.

So I felt like that was like meaningful to understand to me. It's like, okay, you know what? Maybe I shouldn't be worrying about this. And then there's also people that was using like up to six grams of tryptophan. It's like, I'm feeling fine. They're feeling even euphoric. Okay. Well, about 1% of tryptophan is converted into serotonin. And then a lot of that's converted to NAD and like other stuff.

So honestly, that was a very long-winded answer to tell you. I pretty much lost interest in serotonin in the demonizing effect. I started out like serotonin is the devil and onto like, you know what, it's a lot more complicated than I thought it was. And sometimes things like a banana and tryptophan is actually not as harmful. And some people with premature ejaculation could actually benefit from it. You might just expect a decrease in libido, but try it out.

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of nuance to this and to be dogmatic about it is definitely not going to be helpful for the scientific community. But I love the open mindedness and considering the fact that like some of these foods, like you mentioned, bananas specifically, like as a serotonergic food, right?

I'm curious, now that you mentioned that, you've also undertaken quite a lot of food experiments yourself over the years. Talk to us maybe about some of the ones you've like ran on yourself, N equals one.

All right. So I did do quite a lot. So when I just started out in the RightBeat Forum, I was in a very actually terrible place in my life where there was a lot of stress. The environment wasn't right. That was creating a lot of stress and like health issues for me at the time, which I don't, looking back, I don't regret it because it helped me like learn a lot of stuff. But particularly starches was offensive to me. Like it flared my immune system, gave me dandruff, brain fog, just messed with me. My blood sugar, like everything was just horrible on starches.

It was rice, potatoes, any kind of starch. And I felt based on dairy. So I was fortunate enough to digest dairy, but at the time I was also hypothyroid. So cold dairy was just making me more cold. So honestly, the only thing that really worked was meat and honey diet. That worked quite well. But at the time, like honey was too expensive, so I couldn't afford it. So I was just eating potatoes and just tolerating all of the side effects. I was like, okay, I don't care. Like, okay.

I was so poor, like, man, I couldn't even afford fruit. I was like, I want to do a starch-free experiment, but I can't afford fruit. So this is horrible. But then as we started making more money, I was able to afford more fruit. And then I did do a starch-free diet. And that was really good.

Just going back to the starch. So just on that note there, I'm just so happy that you're mentioning this right now. And I'm just, I can't wait for all the guys listening to this podcast to be like leaving comments about, you know, Lucas was always talking about starch. Like, dude, I have said this for so long as well. And I'm also the exact same as you. Starch is not good for me as well at all.

Like potato starch, like cornstarch, you know, they add tapioca starch, all that sort of starch that they add to foods as well. Not good, man. Like fatigue, like terrible, man. Terrible. Why do you think that is? What's your theory behind that? My theory is that back then I wasn't healthy. I couldn't tolerate my immune system. My gut health specifically was a mess.

So I can happily say now that I can tolerate those foods without any issues. There's no dandruff, no brain fog, no blurry vision. Like back then my vision was so blurry. I could, I could look like six meters. And then after six meters, it was like very blurry. And I completely reversed it. Like my vision is fine. Like if I eat rice now, it was no blurry vision. So I attribute that all back to minimizing oxidative stress and low-grade inflammation. So when you don't have inflammation, your body can start to just work better. Like inflammation, oxidative stress is disrupting mitochondria. It can't work properly.

So first of all, you want to reduce any kind of negative insult on the body. So this is where a starch-free diet can be really helpful because you're just minimizing all kinds of inflammation. And then you like loading your body with nutrient-dense foods, which is like liver, yolks, dairy, meat, all of like the micronutrient-dense foods to provide the cofactors for the cells to work better. So that was kind of like my strategy, micronutrient-dense foods, minimizing oxidative stress and inflammation. The body is working better. And over time, you can just tolerate more. But more lately, it was also about like

just really focusing on liver health and then optimizing antioxidant status even more. Like I did organic acid test. So this is, maybe we can touch on this later, but this is why it's so important to do testing is because like you feel amazing. Do a test. It's like, oh my gosh, I'm really unhealthy. Like all my antioxidants are super low, but I feel great. Right. And then like 10 years later, you're maybe pre-diabetic, getting cardiovascular disease, like those kinds of stuff. This is why it's really important to test.

So like I did organic acid test so that my vitamin C, NAC, glutathione, and those kind of stuff was low. I did some blood tests. My liver enzymes were fine. And so this is important. Like your liver enzymes can actually be fine, but you could still have liver issues, right? So just focusing on the liver, focusing on gut health, antioxidant status, and this, I'm not talking about vitamin E, vitamin C. I'm talking about like the powerful stuff, like carnosine, right? Supplementing beta-alanine. Like those are like superior stuff, coenzyme, cutane, and whatnot. I prefer the animal antioxidants that actually makes the body work better, right?

Not like plant stuff or medical stressors, like animals. Right. So that was kind of my approach to tolerating stuff better. Like I'm very gut focused on, on this. Like, yeah. Do you think that makes sense? Do you think the starch, like, all right, so you mentioning, so hyperactivation of the immune system causing, like, is it the fact that it's increasing endotoxin or what, what about the starch do you think is the aggravating factor? I think it's a lot of stuff again, like you can't attribute to one thing. And, um,

We're pressed for time, so I don't know if I have some time to talk about endotoxin because I feel like this is a big misconception as well. We should, yeah. All right. So briefly, endotoxin is actually called lipopolysaccharide, but it's not one thing. There's many lipopolysaccharides.

So a group of things and your different bacteria produces these lipopolysaccharides. So lipo is a fat polysaccharides. It's like a sugar molecule, like a starch molecule. So it's like a sugar and a fat combined to have different structures, different bacteria create different stuff. Acromantia, for example, also creates a type of endotoxin.

that's not as inflammatory. Something, you have these very pathological bacteria like salmonella and E. coli that produce very harmful and inflammatory endotoxin, right? So one bacteria creates a not inflammatory one that could even be hormetic. Another one creates very inflammatory. So what

people on the Right Peat Forum misunderstood is like, okay, they took the endotoxin from E. coli, and then they injected the animal with a very harmful endotoxin, injected it, bypassed the stomach lining. It's like, look, it causes obesity, it destroys you. It's like, dude, did you know that's completely unphysiological? So like, right, with all of this research, I was like, man, you've got to look at everything. So that's the quick background on endotoxin. But

bacteria can create a host of different inflammatory stuff. So you have beneficial stuff like butyrate, the short chain fatty acids, maybe some hormetic things that bacteria can also create. And then you have the harmful stuff like lipopolysaccharides,

So it's again like this balance between antioxidants, beneficial things, detrimental things that ultimately controls the gut lining, the inflammation of muscle degranulation, what burdens deliver. So it gets complicated. You have to look at everything. But I would say like, let's say you eat a starch, you get some side effects. Why did you get side effects? Like,

perhaps you didn't digest the starch very well, you probably have maybe an amylase deficiency, or you have a deficiency in bacteria that also secretes some of these enzymes that digest because your gut bacteria can also secrete things that aid in digestion.

Then it's like, okay, maybe you have a specific bacteria that's then feeding on the undigested starches that's reaching the gut. Because this is very important. Like when you eat food, you want to make sure like almost everything is properly digested before it reaches the colon. If it reaches the colon, any of those undigested stuff is going to be fermented. So this is what you don't want. For example, undigested amino acids and access reaching the colon, like tryptophan, is going to create toxic byproducts that's going to then attack the kidney and lead to chronic kidney disease, for example.

Right. So everything could be coming back from your digestion is not adequate. Maybe your transit time is not fast enough. Maybe you have leaky gut. That's then causing more cell de-renellation, releasing inflammation in the body. Like it gets complicated. So knowing exactly where the problem is can be hard. But I just like to focus on make sure digestion is optimal. Make sure your transit time is optimal. Make sure your gut health is optimal. Pretty distinct enough, you don't have an excess of bad bacteria.

amazing amazing uh seeing as though we're we're touching on endotoxin um in terms of interventions that you've seen work well i mean i personally have responded really well to the raw carrot salad like that that works quite well um and then also the lactoferrin i actually learned about through yourself i remember you made a post about it um like

it actually influencing androgens in a positive way. So maybe you want to talk about, let's talk about lactoferrin because that does not get enough attention. Well, I personally think it doesn't receive enough hype. Yeah. So what I've seen, and this is interesting, like when you look at someone do a complete blood count, your neutrophils needs to be around 60% of your, all of the white blood cells, 60%.

What you will often see is like 50% or less. And your neutrophils actually secrete lactoferrin, which then neutralizes some of these pathogens and reduces inflammation. So if you have low levels of neutrophils and low levels of complete white blood, like all of the white blood cells, like you want to look at the percentage and the total amounts, like chances are you might benefit from more lactoferrin. So I have recommended this to people with low neutrophils before, and it has had a tremendous anti-inflammatory benefit, which allows your body to work better.

So like immunoglobulins that binds to toxins, lactoferrin that reduces inflammation, activated charcoal that binds to toxins can be extremely helpful to prevent the absorption. Like activated charcoal was always for me like the superior thing. I've tried carrot salad. I've tried like the mushroom salad or the fried mushrooms, whatever. None of those really helped. The only thing that really helped to me was the activated charcoal. Even the fine stuff, it didn't help.

it wasn't even the granules do you find that's it's an interesting point because um my my brother's recently just undertaken well he's been doing some pretty long fasts and he reckons that he's you know and i'm sure you've heard this as well some people they feel so great on a fast mental clarity you know energy's through the roof i think a lot of that is actually i'm thinking like a reduction in endotoxin what are your thoughts on that as well

Exactly. There's not food in your intestine or at least that much. So the toxins being produced is very little. And then the inflammation can actually start to go down. But very interesting. I think not a lot of people know this, but when you fast, your urodine levels go up and urodine being a nootropic.

So I think that also plays a big role in why people actually get this mental boost when they fast. So I think people like that could benefit from activated charcoal and maybe supplementing some urodine to see if it mimics that benefit. And it makes sense because when he has used activated charcoal before in high doses, we saw a massive improvement in mental clarity, reduction in brain fog. You just feel like general. So I would perceive activated charcoal as like,

It's both therapeutic and also like as a medicine, like let's say you've actually had food poisoning, activated charcoal can work really well as like a post, like an emergency situation as well.

Yeah, yeah. I would just encourage everyone to use it about one hour before a meal or two or three hours after a meal, depending on how fast you digest food. Otherwise, it's also going to bind to the beneficial stuff. So just separate away from food. And another important thing is, I think a lot of these activated charcoal supplements are underdosed. Like one cap is like 500 milligrams. It's like what you're doing. You probably need like a tea spoon or something like that, bigger doses, like you mentioned. It's going to work better. Do you find it has a bit of a constipating effect though? Like it's... Yeah. Yeah.

No, it hasn't had that for me at all. But it could be possible like your serotonin induces the contraction of the intestines. So the activated charcoal then binds to the serotonin because of its negative charge. And then it could contribute to that. But maybe there will be some form of adaption process, maybe do it for a couple of days, and then it will neutralize. That's just hypothesis. Yeah, interesting. All right. So let's go back to the androgens because I don't know, we sort of...

Most guys want to increase androgens, but now all of a sudden we're going down the gut, the food, the starch, the endotoxin. They're all linked. Obviously, everything's linked. But going back to the androgens, let's talk about testosterone and DHT because every guy asks me the same questions about DHT and they want to understand the hormone. So let's uncover this and I would love to hear you talk about

First of all, the importance of DHT. Secondly, some interesting facts about this particular hormone as well. - All right. So DHT being our most potent hormone, I think most people know this, it binds stronger and longer to the androgen receptor.

But what I really like about DHT, and not a lot of people talk about this, is that it's structurally different than testosterone, which means because it's structurally different, it will have a different effect on the body. So, for example, if you look at DHEA, androsterone, testosterone, and DHT, it more or less has the same structure with slight modifications. Even testosterone and estradiol have slight modifications and have the same structure, but that dramatically changes how the body responds to it.

So denying that DHT has a unique effect that testosterone doesn't have is silly in my opinion, because it's structurally different. It will have a different effect on the adrenergic receptor.

So it's stronger. And this is also something that people can consider is that it's 10 times less in general than your testosterone, but it's 10 times stronger. So if you look at like two pools, right? So testosterone is this big, DHT is this big, but the effect is that big. So you actually double the androgenic effect on the body if your DHT is optimal. So if you shrink your DHT, now your androgenic capacity is much smaller, right? So it's like very potent and it's unique.

And a lot, so this is also what I like, is like people would say like, I feel fine on Finasteride.

And when you look at the studies, you will see that if you use finasteride, it might drop blood DHT by 90%, but it will probably drop your scalp DHT by 50, 60%. There's a tissue difference in how much it drops your DHT. If you look at penis, this was only done in animals. It also drops your DHT by only 50 to 60%. So chances are the people that's not getting side effects, like sexual side effects, it's not dropping the DHT in the brain and the penis enough for them to get side effects.

The people that do get side effects, it drops it hard enough in those tissue that cause a side effect. And then also I would like to mention, lastly, is that I can guarantee you that if those people that say they're fine with low DHT actually start using DHT or uses a supplement that increases DHT, I can guarantee you they're going to notice benefits, right? It's like, well, it's not necessary, but you're going to notice benefits. Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. And also as far as like...

From a dietary perspective, like the interventions and strategies to increase or optimize DHT are oftentimes the same as those to optimize testosterone, right? Like, unless you might have a specific, like, you know, like, do you know what I mean? Like, to optimize DHT, first eat the way you should to optimize T.

Yeah, exactly. So because like your DHT is created from your testosterone and DHEA. So if you supplement DHEA, it's going to increase your DHT preferentially in a dose dependent manner. It's not going to convert into testosterone, it's going to DHT. So your DHT is coming from testosterone and DHEA. You have to taste both.

And testosterone drops by, on average, 1% per year. DHEA drops by 2% to 3% per year. So DHEA drops much more aggressively than testosterone. And then your testosterone might be okay into older age, but your DHEA is very low. And that means your DHT is going to be low. So you want to look at both of those. So first of all, you want to make sure like your testosterone and DHEA is high because your DHEA is going to be created from them.

Then you want to make sure your testosterone is free. You have like at least 2% free testosterone because it's the free hormone that's going to be converted into DHT. And then you want to optimize your 5-L-4-A-Ductase. Like it's not really going to help if you optimize 5-AR if all of the others are not in place. And then you look at what's the promoters of 5-L-4-A-Ductase because like sometimes it's a praise. You want IGF-1, you want your thyroid hormone, you want to be avoiding all of the inhibitors. That's really crucial. That's kind of like what I go about. It's like,

let's let's get into the I mean obviously I mean there's a lot of um there's a lot of promoters and there's a lot of inhibitors of this five alpha ductase do you want to sort of start with like many many different like inhibitors of uh five AR in the body all right I would say nuts and seeds is going to be on top there with beta c to sterol and then

I would like to see some science in this because I haven't really seen like in vivo studies on this, but polyunsaturated fats in vitro, which is like the cell culture studies, seems to inhibit 5-L-fraudactase very potently. But when you see people eat like vegetable oils, it doesn't really seem to pan out, but they could be like strong 5-AR inhibitors. I would just say avoid nuts and seeds.

Vegetables can, but it's not a concentrated supplement. There's something like Lyme's men and Reishi that can lower it. But most of the time, you're not going to be eating a boatload of astaxanthin. You're going to be supplementing a boatload of astaxanthin. So as long as you avoid any weird ass supplements, you should be good. Yeah. Just on that note, I mean, DHT side of things,

In terms of promoters, like you've got things like glycine, creatine, caffeine, thymine. When you're looking at blood work for certain guys, like have you actually seen guys that are like feeling amazing with high blood levels on their blood work with high DHT as well? Have you sort of seen that correlation before? You mean like feeling great while having high DHT?

Yeah, either supplementing like as in using DHT and because I haven't actually really noticed a strong link. I haven't seen guys that are like, yeah, like what are your thoughts on the types of responses guys feel with high DHT? I would say like it depends on what you're going after.

I would say DHT is very like a neurological steroid. It works a lot on the brain in the way it makes you feel, the way you process your thoughts and the stuff that you do, motivation and drive, the sexual function aspect as well. But if you look at the studies, it doesn't seem to potentiate libido as much. You need some estrogen for that. So always like I prefer if guys wanted to use DHT, it's like just use testosterone with DHT at the same time or ACG, something just kind of fill in or maybe even DHEA. You don't even need to go to testosterone depending on someone's sensitivity.

But that's primarily what I see. There's a few guys on X that's, I would say, like really experimenting with DHT enanthate right now. You know, like testosterone enanthate is like a longer ester for testosterone. So they're using DHT enanthate. It's a very rare steroid. You have to find like a chemist that's able to make it for you. But...

They seem to be getting really good results. They're taking guys through transformations. It seems to be quite anabolic, speeds up their metabolic rate, like seem to be very healthy overall. They're not obviously losing their hair if they stay healthy. Those are some of the main benefits that I see from people using DHEA. Okay, so also with DHEA, there's a few myths around that as well. Like a lot of people are saying that, oh, you know, men should not use DHEA because it will preferentially cause

prioritize estrogen synthesis. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think that's a bit of a myth?

I think they're far off. I've seen, like, if you actually look at the studies where young guys and old guys supplement DHEA, young guys prefer to convert the DHEA into DHT. The older guys might convert a little bit more into estrogen, but specifically estrone, not estradiol. So you won't always see an increase in estradiol, but there's also some contradictory studies. Some old guys do not see an increase in estradiol. Some older guys do. So this is why it's important to taste because even young guys, like, okay, so this is another interesting thing.

When you look at a study, you don't want to look at the averages or you do, but you also want to look at the individual effects, which a lot of studies don't share because this one can get an increase. This one can get a decrease, but at the end of the day, this is the average. And you think like, okay, it's not going to do this, but then you have a different response because you're an individual. So as I mentioned, DHEA aggressively drops with age. You want to make sure you maximize your DHEA.

almost everyone slaps that i see end up with middle to low range dhea and that leads to low levels of dhd like you can optimize it naturally or you can just supplement it either way but it needs to be looked at and supplemental form i mean obviously there's different different formats you got the trochers you got the sublinguals you've got the oral do you think orally it's still is still bioavailable orally

The bioavailability is poor. So you want to do tests. I think it's around 3%. But if you supplement a large enough dose, you're going to see an increase. Typically, a young individual can use 25 to 50 milligrams, not see an issue. Older individuals can go up to 100 milligrams to normalize their levels. But again, you have to test each time because maybe you as an individual will use 25 milligrams. It's not budging your levels. You have to go to 100 or something like that.

I found when I first used pregnenolone, that was really potent. Like the subjective effect... And this was many, many years, probably like three years ago. I remember the subjective effects from pregnenolone were pretty pronounced, man. So how do you...

So did you sort of rotate depending upon the individual's case? Like you might, you might call upon DHEA or you might call upon pregnenolone. Is it dependent upon their blood work and or symptoms? Like how do you approach that? I would say it comes down to, so I look at allage. Sometimes people test pregnenolone not very often. And then I look at your testosterone. So if allage is low, I just know like everything else is going to be low. Sometimes someone have normal allage and,

i've seen this this is weird like normal lh low pregnant alone but then normal testosterone as well it's like well i i would assume that if we put more pregnant alone to your system your testosterone is going to go up because like it already seems to be converting really well so it really depends on the individual how they respond i've personally not felt anything from pregnant alone at 100 milligrams dose so if someone want to try it by all means try it a pregnant alone is going to more so convert into progesterone so it might be more like a

progestogenic effect more like GABAergic but pregnenolone obviously with itself can also be anti-GABA so like it really depends on how someone is responding like with all of these interconversions and whatnot it's it's so i want to like really emphasize this that

even i would say that you're like top in the game when it comes to hormone optimization that even someone like yourself admitting that it's complex and it's like this is there's so many different pathways that we just still don't really understand and like the complexity being able to map it all out like with your brain even you're saying that and i also say the same thing as well like it's just

Guys think that they can truly, like, truly hack every single pathway. And like, if they get this hormone to this level, and this hormone to this level, then they're going to feel like God. Like, yeah, would you would you say that's, that's the case as well?

Well, so that's funny. The way I go about optimization, just backtracking a little bit, it's like always starting with minimizing oxidative stress and then maximizing your nutrient dense foods. And then like, I actually just had a guy reach out to me like two days ago. He said that was exactly what he's been doing. He's been feeling really good.

he's been doing that for a whole year and then he had his testosterone tested it was only about like 600 and his free tea was really low but he was feeling good it's like this is why it's important to test because you can't even feel better it's like all right so you have been doing all of the good stuff but why is your ssbg still high and so this is testing and this is like okay now we create a specialized protocol for you based on how you respond to everything you've been doing well seeing as though where you sort of touched on shbg that's a that's a hormone

Dad, I think there's a lot of misconceptions around the importance of SHBG. You don't want it too low and you don't want it too high, right? Like you want it in a sweet spot. Like what are your thoughts on SHBG?

Yeah, so first of all, like free testosterone is in most cases calculated. It's not even measured. So when people look at their free testosterone, they're not actually looking at the total bioavailable pool of free androgens because you have DHEA and androsterone and all of those other steroids that's also having an affinity to SSVG. So like DHEA has an affinity to SSVG.

So it's displacing your testosterone, right? So when you're measuring your free testosterone, you actually have no idea of how much is binding to the androgen receptor. So it's exactly what you mentioned. You don't want it too low, but you don't want it too high. You still want to have an adequate amount. And it ultimately is also going to come down to how do you feel? So this is why I like to have like a broad overview of how someone, how healthy they are, what's your lipids, their enzymes. Like, is there a reasonable explanation for why someone's SSBG might be high, right? Usually it's because they're doing a low carb diet.

Like, are they doing a low carb diet? Right? No. Okay. How's their thyroid hormone? How's their insulin levels? Like, where are their micronutrients? Like, then you start analyzing all of those stuff to understand, like, why it's high or low. But, like, really, the most important thing is just how someone is feeling. Like, if all of their inflammatory markers are low, they are insulin sensitive, they don't have, like, elevated liver enzymes, for example, and they're feeling good, but their SSBG is high, it's like, maybe you shouldn't be caring too much about it because you're building muscle fine, you're sleeping well, recovery is well.

Don't always over obsess about things was my advice. Yeah, no, definitely. What about I mean, so just going back to what you mentioned there, like, let's, we have to dive into low carb diets. I mean, we have we, we both love I mean, I'm sure you also love consuming carbohydrates. I love it as well, man. I find it's anti stress. I find it's

You feel great. Everything is better. Everything in life is better with carbohydrates. But the guys that aren't metabolically healthy are the ones that suffer the consequences of not being able to tolerate carbs. So just sort of explain that.

Exactly. So your carbohydrates are the main antagonist to cortisol. And you have this enzyme called 11-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 and type 2. Type 1 activates cortisol from cortisone, which is an active to cortisol, which is active. Type 2 deactivates it. So it's always been in like this ratio being activated and deactivated. It's an intracellular enzyme. So if you, do you want to go into the cortisol rabbit hole real quick?

Oh, let's do it. Yeah. All right. So, so when, when someone is doing a cortisol test that shows you almost absolutely nothing about cortisol, it shows you how much absolute amounts of cortisol that person is producing at that time. It doesn't show you how much is free. It doesn't show you the rhythm over the day. It doesn't show you how the body's been is going to process it with five alpha reductase, for example. So if you want to test your cortisol, you want to do a salivary urinary and maybe a blood as well. Like that's going to give you a much better idea.

But then also you have this intracellular enzyme that I just talked about. So when you're doing low carb, your blood levels of cortisol might seem normal, but you have no idea about the intracellular levels of cortisol. Because if you're not having carbs, the body is going to get carbs from somewhere, right? And cortisol is the main thing that's going to get the amino acids from the muscle, take it to the liver, convert it into glucose. Your cortisol is going to be elevated. There's going to be some form of elevated levels of cortisol. So your carbohydrates is lowering it. But what I have found is,

is when I was like really in a stress state, I needed about at least 300 grams of carbs just to feel normal and not have anxiety to actually sleep, be warm. And as I got healthier and healthier, I could go lower and lower and lower carb. And so now I prefer to have my carbs at least over 100, but sometimes I go to 100, sometimes I go to 50 grams and I get no side effects because I am healthier and I can tolerate that stress. So I would say like when someone's really anxious and stressed, depressed, cold, they probably need a lot more carbohydrates.

So yeah, it's very important, but you need to be insulin sensitive as well. You have to play around with the carb sources. If we talked earlier, you want to be consuming starch or something that's going to cause inflammation. Now you mentioned body temperature, like being warm. A lot of guys will be wondering like, why is Hans always talking about body temperature? Like what's the significance? Explain that to my audience, why that's actually a really good proxy.

All right. So your thyroid hormone is one of the main hormones involved with your norepinephrine that work in synergy to keep the body at a certain temperature. So when your thyroid hormone and or norepinephrine is not high enough, your temperature is going to start to drop and then the cells can't work the way they're supposed to. So for me, I've noticed a very clear correlation between sleep quality, anxiety, depression, anhedonia, and just feeling off when my temperature were low. So the warmer I felt, so this is something I did, especially in wintertime,

when I, let's say I drove somewhere and the sun was out, like you would just sit in the car and create like a little bit of a sauna. And we just feel like your body's getting warmer and warmer. And it's like, Oh, I'm starting to feel better. And the anxiety is starting to go away. And it's like, as my body temperature is getting higher, I'm just starting to feel more normal. You, you eat carbohydrates, your temperature go up. Um, for most people, I would assume like some people actually get colder because they get inflammatory response. Um,

And they just feel more normal. So the cue for me was just like, do things that make you feel warmer. You go for a walk, you feel warmer. You actually less anxiety. That was it for me. So the warmer you feel, the better. But it's also, there's two sides to the point. Hot flushes is not being normal, normally hot. I also got those. So if you get a stress response, like a spike in cortisol, you're going to feel warmer and that's going to disrupt your sleep quality. So that's what happened to me.

Like I would eat food. I would feel more or less warm when I was metabolically unhealthy. And then I would sleep and hear around three. I would almost always wake up around three and then start getting hot flushes and be like agro AF. I was like mad.

because of the alimatic cortisol i had to go to the kitchen and like make myself like milk sugar drink that and it's like i can feel like how i'm getting cold it's just dropping and then i can go back to sleep like so many people wake up around three and it's because of like glycogen put on a cgm you will see thanks thanks man i'm so glad you're mentioning this because i i

I think people just there's just so many myths and misconceptions around the importance of um you know body temperature carbohydrate intake and things like that and you've also you made a really good point like if you said that you felt quite good when your body temperature was on the warmer side obviously not not hot flushing not not that not that extreme but it's like you should be able to like I think cold tolerance being outside in a colder environment and noticing that you're not like

absolutely freezing is a good sign that you're just general and even like iron deficiency can play into this as well so it's like if the individual has low iron i know this was my case um and you've probably seen this as well though like replenishing low iron or you know correcting that leads to an increase in body temperature but it's not necessarily just because of the blood flow but it's also because iron therefore helps thyroid as well so it sort of works both ways

Yeah, it's a cofactor to many of the enzymes that create ATP. So you definitely need iron. And I think I remember you trying to fix iron like a few years ago because it was like really low. Yeah, I remember that.

Man, I went on a quest. So one of my best friends has hemochromatosis, right? So we were hanging out at university a lot and he was telling me all about the dangers of iron. So I was like, oh my God, iron is terrible. Like this is so bad. And I went on a quest and I'm like, all right, let's go donate blood. Let's take high doses of curcumin. Let's take high doses of vitamin B1. Let's just deplete the shit, my body out of this, you know, this iron. And eventually I became like,

anemic and i was like why am i so fatigued and i can't get pumps in the gym and i'm feeling just like difficult to get out of bed when my iron levels were low sleep time goes up which is not a good thing because then you're sleeping like nine to 9.5 hours i'm like that's not that's not good um and then replenishing the the iron just restored everything man like i felt so so good and i'm like man

How did that even happen? How did I get there?

Yeah, that's one of the things that I think also was in the right performance. Like everyone is raging against serotonin, iron, like estrogen. It's like you actually need a balance between those kind of stuff. So yeah, that's a really good example. And the funny side is like I also had iron, but what happened is like I was eating a lot of like beef heart. So when you look at the zinc to iron ratio, it's about a one to one ratio. So it's like if you want to fix anemia, you want to go to organ meat, like it's very iron iron.

So what I did, and so my goal wasn't to lower iron at the time. Okay, so my iron was about like 580, my ferritone, which is actually quite high. I was like concerned that I might have hemochromatosis, but my transferrin saturation was only about like 49. So like people with hemochromatosis usually have like closer to 90, closer to 100% saturation. So what happened is like, I was like, okay, I'm going to do an oyster experiment. I'm going to be consuming like 15 medium-sized Pacific oysters, right?

So I 4x'd my iron intake. My iron dropped from like 440 down to like 280 by 4x'ing my iron. 4x your iron or zinc from the oysters? Yeah, I 4x'ed my iron, but exactly what you mentioned, my zinc intake was much higher. My zinc to iron ratio was really high and that brought it down. So this is why like the zinc to iron ratio is really important. If you want to fix your deficiency, you want to go for something lower in zinc, higher in iron.

Yeah, that's definitely, I guess, a pathway as well. I feel really, really good on chicken and beef hearts when I eat them. It's one of the only organ meats where I subjectively feel distinctive grounded androgenic effects. I've never had testes. I've never had bull testicles or anything, but I've got friends that have tried. I actually haven't tried it yet, but I would like to try it one day.

But yeah, is there any sort of organ meat yourself where you're like, damn, I actually get a really good effect from? Liver, for sure. Like there was a period where I wasn't really consuming any liver because I just felt like I've been doing it for so long. I probably replenish all of my nutrients when I do the taste like folate, copper, iron, zinc, selenium, all of those were like 100% on point.

And just recently, actually, I was doing a diascoria experiment for DHT. And by the end of like this diascoria experiment, I was just feeling again, like also fatigued and tired and just weird low libido things were just like weird. I was like, Okay, man, I'm just gonna start adding like back chicken liver because it's something I haven't had in a while. And I was like, literally the first day, like after eating is like, I'm starting to feel better. Second, I like almost all of my symptoms are gone. Like third, I'm like feeling back to normal, just by having more liver. So

I obviously can't point it just to one nutrient, but like organ meats, especially liver is like a powerhouse. That's one of the things that really always like helped me. All right. So this is going to be somewhat controversial, but it's the vitamin A side of things. Now, whether or not it's, so like, let's say, let's look at an individual scenario. A guy decides to eat a lot of liver. We're talking like,

300 grams every day which is quite a lot it's you know probably like a liver like a proper size liver let's say they do that every day do you think it has a after a while do you think it would have a pro thyroid effect or actually negative effect on the thyroid so there was some vitamin a supplementation studies we showed a pro thyroid effect after i think three months it was quite

Well, people would say three months is not really that long, but three months is quite a bit of a time. There's not really studies on liver, and we know that there is a different response, even in vitamin A from supplementation versus liver. The thing is the body is very good at regulating the absorption and excretion of things like copper and vitamin A and whatnot. It can regulate the absorption excretion thereof. So for example, let's take the example of copper. The body can literally downregulate the absorption of copper all the way down to 10%. You're only absorbing 10% of copper because your body has enough. I'm just going to shut it down.

And all the way up. If you have a deficiency, it can upregulate all the way up to 90%. Like you're absorbing close to everything, all of the copper in the diet. So the body's like really good at regulating that if it's coming from natural sources. So I'm not going to deny that there is vitamin A toxicity. It has been established that there is vitamin A toxicity. But I think like, and it comes down to, um,

people just speculating this is again something i really don't like like the vitamin a community they're speculating like crazy like i have vitamin a toxicity because uh i think so because i haven't done any tests there's like what i prefer to do is like okay look at vitamin a how does it influence the body what other markers does it influence because vitamin a itself is not a good marker to look at you want to look at all of the other markers it influences

is those healthy do i have inflammation is my liver enzyme salivated what about my lipids what about my gut health blah blah all of those are normal do you really have a toxicity probably not maybe you shouldn't be obsessing about it and then it's like it's not it's not really like the vitamin a being a problem unless you like over supplement it like crazy it's more so the body's not able to regulate it well with zinc and b12 and like the cofactors that's necessary for the regulation of vitamin a that's really the issue like

when you look at the vitamin a guys it's like what did they do they were eating a low zinc diet to begin with and now suddenly they're eating like close to a pound or half a kilo of meat per day it's like it's the vitamin a bro it's like did you know your your 4x 5x your zinking take maybe you're feeling better because you're consuming more nutrients so that's kind of my take on it yeah man uh in terms of um i'd say with with when it comes to like zinc supplementation man i mean that was also something that i learned early on was like

Let's like pull back on the zinc supplementation because first of all, I'm not deficient and any further zinc is not actually helping much. Have you seen that to be the case as well like when working with clients? Yes. If you're supplementing it, like first of all, like if you don't have deficiency, it's not going to do anything for increasing your testosterone even more.

maybe if someone has a heavy metal toxicity, the zinc and then upregulate enzymes to help with detoxification of heavy metals. So I'm not saying like it does not have benefit, like maybe even in the context of the zinc to iron ratio, if someone has high iron, you're supplementing zinc, maybe it can help to bring the iron down. So there are some cases where it would make sense. But I would say like,

every single time when i start with someone it's like eat your meat eat your eggs eat some liver right get those nutrients from foods don't supplement it you're not going to need it like if someone has an issue it's probably because they have intestinal inflammation they're absorbing this improperly is a supplement going to fix that might help a little but like ultimately the issue is the gut it's not like you need more zinc you just need to fix the gut all right so let's look at

your, I would say like top five foods that like they have to be in the fridge at all times of the year. They need to like you'll freak out if these foods are not in the fridge, like you're completely missing out. Because my audience, I would say a lot of guys are, they're pretty dialed in the ones listening to this podcast. They're already doing a lot of the right things. But it'd be great to hear from you like in terms of certain foods that are like they have to be there. They have to be in the fridge.

All right, so I would say my top five is going to be red meat. It doesn't really matter where it's coming from. From the cow, of course, or bison. Dairy is very good. It has a lot of health benefits, including the leopards specifically. Does it need to be raw dairy? Thoughts on that? No, no, it doesn't have to be. Like raw is going to be slightly better, but it doesn't have to be. You're still getting the benefits if it's not raw. All right, so meat, meat, milk, yolks.

Oysters and liver. Those are going to be my top five, but if you can't find oysters, it's not a breaker deal. I would say the top one is just going to be meat. So, meat, milk, oats, oysters and liver. No, no, no. It's meat, milk, eggs, liver and oysters.

Yeah. So for me, it's all about like animal foods, get the micronutrient dense stuff and minimizing offset of stress. And oftentimes, it's just as important to avoid things than it was to consume things. Things that cause inflammation, like the starch-free diet. Like if you need to do a starch-free diet, do it. It's probably going to be more beneficial than consuming oysters in that case for you. Well, you heard it here, guys. Hans's top five foods here, meat, milk, eggs, liver, oysters. That's a

Man, I mean, you could survive and thrive, not only just survive, but you can thrive on those foods. Like you can, if that's all, in terms of a carbohydrate, what's another carbohydrate you might add to that list if you wanted, you know, to carbohydrate? I would say for personal preference, man, that's difficult because sometimes a lot of my taste changes and then I want rice and then I want potatoes and then I want fruit. So I don't really have like a one carb source that I like.

My rule is just like as long as it doesn't cause side effects, like for the individual, like make sure that you tolerate it while you digest it while it's not causing inflammation. That's kind of my main rule. Thoughts on the berries, blueberries, raspberries, blackberries, things like that. Well, give me the purpose of consuming them.

As like a way for a guy to hit his RDI of carbohydrates and also fiber. Okay, a few things to say on that. So carbohydrates, berries not very high in carbohydrates. You have to eat a lot of them unless you drink the juice, which is probably going to make more sense if you're going for the carbs. It does have benefits, but the way I look at it is

what does the body require to work zinc selenium copper carnitine coenzyme cutane that's what it requires it doesn't require some form of a berry extract right it it it's not essential you know yeah there's no rdi there's no rdi for any polyphenols is what you're saying like you don't have to the body doesn't need the polyphenols but you're saying just give the body what it needs right

Yeah. So people's always like, it's so good in antioxidants. Did you know coenzyme keratin is a fantastic antioxidant? Did you know taurine is a fantastic antioxidant? Glycine, like all of this stuff that you already get from the food, that's essential. That's where I start.

It's really, yeah, it's interesting. Because the way I perceive it is like, yes, I agree with that. And then it's like, but I'm like, but I want the terastilbene. I want the resveratrol. I want these for other benefits like nitric oxide and all that. But then what you're saying is like, but you can get the same benefits of these polyphenols from the carnosine, the taurine, that sort of stuff from meat. I totally get your rationale.

Yeah, like I feel that if you're getting all of the nutrients, you don't have oxidative stress, you're probably not going to feel anything from it. And if you do, it's more likely that there's a compound in the berry that's maybe increasing your dopamine. And then you feel a little bit of a rush or increasing your endocannabinoids, right? So you feel like a mood change. It's not that the body's working better. It's just like slightly altering your neurotransmitters.

Yeah, I agree. That's funny. I went down a bit of a rabbit hole once, Hans, where I was like, I wanted to, well, I still do. I basically will look at hormones and I want to truly see what they feel like. Did you ever go through that phase where you're like, I want to understand cortisol. I want to see what thyroid is.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So I have been experimenting a bit. I'm currently doing a DHA androsterone experiment. So I've, I've used them in the past before, but it was lower doses because I was too broke ass to use higher doses. So now I'm actually using like 15 to 20 milligrams of it to, to really notice like a bigger effect. So from my research, the body creates about like 17 milligrams of androsterone per day. So if you get a hundred percent bioavailability, that's gonna be more or less like a replacement dose.

So for now, I'm feeling like the heat, like I'm feeling the thermogenic benefit. I'm feeling the libido benefit. I'm feeling the GABAergic alpha confidence benefit. Like if I can describe it like that, I think people would understand it. So that's DHA, antistarone. I have used testosterone, sepionate, and enanthate in the past. What else? I've used mastron, so I've noticed how that felt.

One of my next upcoming experiments is going to be with DHD in anthates. So I'm going to feel how that feels. And then I'm going to try DHD topical, which is not with an ester. So the one is going to be much more stable levels. The other one's going to be more ups and downs. So this year of 2025 is a very DHD year for me. I'm going to experiment with all of the... 2025 is the year of DHD. Exactly. So I'm going to be experimenting with all of the...

the natural and endogenous found compounds. So what I like about Androsurone or DHT is like these compounds are already found naturally in the body. And so my philosophy is like being an enhanced natty. You're enhancing being natty, right? You're just making the body work better the way it's supposed to, like providing more consomputin, more taurine, like those kind of stuff. Just make it work better. So I've already used Butea Superba, which was mainly like a really good libido booster for me. I've used Ioscoria

I don't know if I will ever try that again or recommend it. It wasn't like that well for me. It didn't alter my DHEA or IGF-1 or anything like that. Currently, as I mentioned, DHEA and adrenosterone. Next up is going to be the DHD for two months. Then I'm going to try Sorghum from the Tropics Depot. I'm not sure if it's going to increase DHD. I just want to see if it actually does. What was that from? Sorghum? Yeah, the rhodaxin. Yeah, they have like an extract. I'm not sure.

Oh, really? I haven't seen that. Maybe I'm out of the loop. Buteo Superba though, going back to that one, is that through Barlow's? No, I got the one from Based. Based supplements. Oh, Based. Yeah, yeah. Cool. And response from that, you said was quite good from Buteo Superba. The libido aspect, yeah, was quite good. But like, so this is also interesting when it comes to like DHT boosters.

you will get different responses from different DHT boosters. So everyone's always asking like, which is the best DHT boosters? Like it really depends on what you're going for. Like nicotine, for example, can increase your DHT, but it's going to be probably more of a nootropic compound than anything else. Like for me, Butea was more of a libido boosting. Like if you're going for calmness, I'm not going to be recommending Butea, right? So it really depends on what the goal is for the person. But back to my overall goals, it's just like, can I be experimenting this year with herbs?

And the synthetic, not synthetic, but like the bioidentical hormones, because I want to compare what the bioidentical hormones feels like, even a large doses to the herbs. And so I can give proper recommendations to people. That's awesome. I've also acquired DHT topical as well, and also topical testosterone as well.

It's suspended in vitamin E and stearic acid, I think. So saturated fatty. I think you'd know alpha gels. You've heard of alpha gels? Yeah. So I've acquired the testosterone and the DHT topical. So it might be the year of DHT for me as well, 2025. Yeah.

So there could be, you have to try and get that username, the enhanced natty. It's just such a cute, I love that. I'm an enhanced natty. Man, we could definitely continue on for so much longer. I know we're sort of running out of time. We'll definitely line up another episode, another podcast and keep it centralized on a certain topic because I know we've just, I feel like we're in a washing machine of hormones right now.

But it's been an absolute pleasure chatting Hans. Let my audience know a little bit more how they can connect with you. Where should they find you? - All right, so mainly I'm on X, just search Hans Amato, you'll find me there.

and that's it and then i have a community um if everyone needs any help i have the community called testo tribe so if you want my help you want lab analysis recommendations all my courses that's where i basically help people but if you want some free content x is the place i hang out awesome make sure to leave that linked in the podcast show notes for those listening in but uh otherwise hans man let's uh let's get you back on the podcast because i know a lot of guys are gonna be requesting episode number two together so um

Thanks for coming on the podcast, man. It's been a pleasure chatting. This was so much fun, man. I really appreciate the opportunity. Katherine Johnson plotting the path for America's first astronauts. Tim Berners-Lee and Vint Cerf creating the World Wide Web.

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