We're sunsetting PodQuest on 2025-07-28. Thank you for your support!
Export Podcast Subscriptions
cover of episode Laughing at Power: A Troublemaker’s Guide to Changing Tech

Laughing at Power: A Troublemaker’s Guide to Changing Tech

2025/1/16
logo of podcast Your Undivided Attention

Your Undivided Attention

AI Deep Dive AI Chapters Transcript
People
D
Daniel Barcay
S
Srdja Popovic
Topics
Daniel Barcay: 我致力于开发技术,帮助人们更好地理解世界并做出更明智的选择。目前在CHT工作,旨在揭示技术发展背后的激励机制和心理学,以期构建更美好的技术生态系统。我们面临的技术激励机制对我们有害,例如让人们沉迷于手机、导致儿童精神疾病、加剧社会两极分化以及将个人数据出售给最高出价者,而我们却容忍这种现状,缺乏有效的社会变革运动。现状的核心是服从,如果人们不服从,统治者就无法统治;Srdja Popovic参与推翻了塞尔维亚独裁者米洛舍维奇,并致力于全球和平革命运动。有害的现状之所以能够维持,是因为它让人们相信:他们很孤独,没有其他选择;而有效的社会运动可以通过幽默来削弱即使是最根深蒂固的专制政权的合法性。 在人工智能领域,讨论过于两极分化,缺乏中间立场。我们需要更谨慎地、更深入地了解正在发生的事情。技术本身并非好坏,关键在于如何使用它;人工智能既可以被用于制作虚假视频,也可以被用于防伪选举。我们需要判断技术是增强了攻击开放社会的能力,还是增强了维护我们想要的世界的能力。我们需要让人们关注即将到来的问题,并找到更好的解决方案。后真相时代之所以危险,是因为它让人们丧失行动力,相信存在比他们更大的力量,从而产生冷漠。我们需要让人们看到,即使看似稳定的系统,也可能迅速发生变化。 Srdja Popovic: 我无法关闭手机通知,这反映了我们身处一个不以我们利益为重的激励系统中。我曾参与推翻塞尔维亚独裁者米洛舍维奇的抵抗运动。米洛舍维奇上台后,塞尔维亚陷入困境,这促使我参与了抵抗运动。在抵抗米洛舍维奇的运动中,我从一名街头组织者成长为领导学生运动和地下组织的人。通过动员青年,并采取既酷又自信的策略,我们的抵抗运动发展壮大,最终在2000年推翻了米洛舍维奇。我们利用幽默和机智来对抗米洛舍维奇政权,使其看起来滑稽可笑。我们通过各种策略,例如涂鸦、标语和“困境行动”,来对抗米洛舍维奇政权,并使其陷入困境。我们利用“困境行动”策略,迫使对手做出糟糕的选择,从而暴露其弱点,例如甘地的盐税游行。“困境行动”在全球范围内广泛存在,涵盖人权、环境和基础设施等各个领域。我将这些策略命名为“笑动主义”和“困境行动”,并通过CANVAS组织推广这种方法。叙利亚反抗者利用乒乓球和音乐芯片等方式进行非暴力抵抗,迫使政府做出尴尬的选择。2012年俄罗斯选举期间,人们在禁止抗议的地方用乐高玩具进行抗议,以此来表达不满。2012年普京赢得选举,但为了达到82%的得票率,他的支持者操纵了投票结果,这引发了民众抗议。在西伯利亚巴尔瑙尔,人们用乐高玩具搭建了一个小型抗议活动,讽刺普京的选举结果。乐高玩具抗议活动被禁止,这反而让普京看起来很可笑,并引起了媒体的关注。幽默本身具有力量,它可以以一种人性化的方式处理棘手的话题,并引发人们的共鸣。幽默可以打破恐惧和冷漠,激发人们的热情,并使社会运动更具吸引力。有效的政治幽默应该避免疏远对方,赢得中间派的支持,而不是巩固自身阵营。社交媒体算法会让人们陷入信息茧房,而打破这种局面需要赢得中间派的支持。成功的社会变革运动始于极端,最终走向主流,需要赢得中间派的支持。“是男人”组织通过恶作剧的方式来对抗企业,例如发布虚假的新闻稿来讽刺大众汽车的排放丑闻。“是男人”组织发布虚假新闻稿,让大众汽车陷入困境,迫使其在承认错误和否认错误之间做出选择。要选择最令人愤怒或反生产力的事情,并通过幽默的方式来揭露问题,而不是简单地抱怨。可以通过制造网络冲突来揭示网络仇恨言论的荒谬之处。在利用社交媒体揭露问题时,如何避免落入社交媒体的陷阱?要选择不太有争议的事情,并通过幽默的方式来揭露问题,避免疏远大部分人。冷漠和恐惧是参与社会变革的两大障碍。如何让人们关注即将到来的问题,并找到更好的解决方案?后真相时代之所以危险,是因为它让人们丧失行动力,相信存在比他们更大的力量,从而产生冷漠。即使看似稳定的系统,也可能迅速发生变化。现状的核心是服从,如果人们不服从,统治者就无法统治;即使是压迫性越强的系统,也可能越容易迅速瓦解。智利的例子说明,即使是简单的行动,只要有足够多的人参与,也能产生巨大的影响。人工智能可以被用于削弱压迫性政府,但关键在于如何使用它。人工智能可以被用于防伪选举,但也要警惕其被用于压制社会运动的可能性。比特币既可以被用于洗钱,也可以被用于支持反对专制政权的运动。我们需要判断技术是增强了攻击开放社会的能力,还是增强了维护我们想要的世界的能力。对于普通人来说,如何保持警觉,并利用好当前的时机?即使是最小的行动也能改变世界,重要的是要相信改变的可能性,并找到合适的工具来实现它。要利用技术来改善我们的生活,并揭露技术中的问题。要学习如何利用技术来造福人民,并相信每个人都能有所作为。

Deep Dive

Shownotes Transcript

The status quo of tech today is untenable: we’re addicted to our devices, we’ve become increasingly polarized, our mental health is suffering and our personal data is sold to the highest bidder. This situation feels entrenched, propped up by a system of broken incentives beyond our control. So how do you shift an immovable status quo? Our guest today, Srdja Popovic, has been working to answer this question his whole life. 

As a young activist, Popovic helped overthrow Serbian dictator Slobodan Milosevic by turning creative resistance into an art form. His tactics didn't just challenge authority, they transformed how people saw their own power to create change. Since then, he's dedicated his life to supporting peaceful movements around the globe, developing innovative strategies that expose the fragility of seemingly untouchable systems. In this episode, Popovic sits down with CHT's Executive Director Daniel Barcay to explore how these same principles of creative resistance might help us address the challenges we face with tech today. 

Your Undivided Attention is produced by the Center for Humane Technology). Follow us on Twitter: @HumaneTech_)

We are hiring for a new Director of Philanthropy at CHT. Next year will be an absolutely critical time for us to shape how AI is going to get rolled out across our society. And our team is working hard on public awareness, policy and technology and design interventions. So we're looking for someone who can help us grow to the scale of this challenge. If you're interested, please apply. You can find the job posting at humanetech.com/careers).

RECOMMENDED MEDIA

“Pranksters vs. Autocrats” by Srdja Popovic and Sophia A. McClennen )

”Blueprint for Revolution” by Srdja Popovic)

The Center for Applied Non-Violent Actions and Strategies, Srjda’s organization promoting peaceful resistance around the globe.)

Tactics4Change, a database of global dilemma actions created by CANVAS)

The Power of Laughtivism, Srdja’s viral TEDx talk from 2013)

Further reading on the dilemma action) tactics used by Syrian rebels)

Further reading on the toy protest in Siberia)

More info on The Yes Men) and their activism toolkit Beautiful Trouble )

”This is Not Propaganda” by Peter Pomerantsev))

Machines of Loving Grace,” the essay on AI by Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei, which mentions creating an AI Srdja.)RECOMMENDED YUA EPISODES

Future-proofing Democracy In the Age of AI with Audrey Tang)The AI ‘Race’: China vs. the US with Jeffrey Ding and Karen Hao)The Tech We Need for 21st Century Democracy with Divya Siddarth)The Race to Cooperation with David Sloan Wilson)CLARIFICATION: Srdja makes reference to Russian President Vladimir Putin wanting to win an election in 2012 by 82%. Putin did win that election but only by 63.6%. However, international election observers concluded that "there was no real competition and abuse of government resources ensured that the ultimate winner of the election was never in doubt."