Tackling inequality is not just down to more government aid: Masagos Zulkifli
39:20 Share

You're listening to a CNA Podcast.

Hello everyone, Stephen is not in the studio with me today, so I'm flying solo. He is on a long journey to the US for filming, so I guess we'll be spared some dad jokes today. If you follow us, you would know that we've had a few political office holders come talk to us about their plans post-budget. This is the last of our series and we have with us Mr. Masagos Zukifli, Singapore's Administer for Social and Family Development, or MSF.

In the 2025 budget, there was a slew of announcements on childcare fee caps, CPF top-ups for disabled persons, providing more support for lower-income families and strengthening the social service sector.

But Mr. Masagos is not alone. He is here together with Flora Tan. She's a senior social worker for the Children and Youth Services at Care Corner. Welcome, both of you. Thank you. Okay, Mr. Masagos, I want to start with you. In our pre-chat, you were talking about being an electrical engineer. That was your training. So you're good at math. And you worked in Singtel for many years. And I wanted to ask you, I know it's a bit unfair to ask you to choose a favourite, like choosing a favourite child.

But what do you think is the toughest and most rewarding in your long career? The good thing is that it all fed into one another. So what I did in Singtel, although it's a lot of engineering, Singtel gave me time to actually do a lot of community work. I was also a president of an NGO, Perdaus. People don't know Perdaus, but perhaps people know Mercy Relief.

Yes, Mercy Relief. It was a way for us basically to get the Muslims to practice charity beyond Malaysia, beyond Muslims and beyond Singapore.

And it really mattered when the Aceh tsunami happened. That's right. After that, we reimagined Mercy Relief to be an organization not only by Muslims, but we gave it up to become a national body. Yes. I think that was when PM Lee, then DPM, who launched that event, got

got to know me, I suppose, you know. We still have a very nice old photo of a young, a very young Mr Lee and a very young Mas Agus launching Mercy Relief. So I have been doing a lot of community work in that sense and moving from one ministry to another when I started work here from Ministry of Education, Home Affairs,

Foreign affairs. Foreign affairs, environment. Water resources, they call it like that. Water resources, yes. And then MSF and health. In one way or another, you either are taking care of people or you're taking care of the environment. So you're taking care of something. Yes. And care is that big word. Okay. Not much of a transition. It's just that the nature of the work and the focus of who we are caring for or what we are caring for shift. So Flora, tell us a bit more about your work.

Why did you choose social work? Why did you choose to work with young people? Yeah, I work with young people. Majority of them are about 9 to 21 years old. So that's quite a big range. That's quite wide. Yeah, yeah. But the main program that I run, which Minister is very familiar with, is the street outreach program. And we work with at-risk youths. So majority of them might not be very well engaged at home or in school.

And they might be out there on the streets, which leaves them exposed to a lot of different anti-social influences. So it's about how then the role of the adult or a practitioner comes into play to ensure that they get the resources that they need and to ensure that there's an environment that's present in the community for them. Why I love young people, actually it's a very humbling kind of work.

They are brutally honest with you. They are candid about the questions you're asking. They are not so polished yet in their thinking. Everything's so raw. But it also gives us an opportunity to co-create experiences together. And there's just that vibrancy that comes no matter what background they are from. But being able to pick up their stories and their journeys, I think... Surely they can't be that easy. I mean, I think young people can be tough, right?

Have they ever said, oh, you know, why are you talking to me? I don't want to talk to you about my problems. We get that all the time. In fact, I had youths who pointed their middle finger at me in the beginning. I mean, one even sent a picture of it to me when I reached out to him. But social workers working with young people, that's where the challenge is. And we find that stimulating because it's really about...

we know why they are behaving this way. It might have been a certain kind of history with adults in their lives. But here is an opportunity to let them experience something different. That's where our expertise is. Yeah, but it's so uncommon, Minister, I'm sure, for young people to choose social work, right? Nowadays, you have young people who tell me that they want to earn a certain amount by a certain time. You know, if you go into IT or FinTech, you can earn that much really quickly. Maybe.

And also the work, social work itself is tough. It's tough work. I used to be what we called the welfare reporter when I was starting out. So I spent a lot of time in and around rental flats at the juvenile court.

which is now a family court. And so I used to interview these families. But as a reporter, you see, I interview them and then I'm out. I don't know what happens to the family and it doesn't really affect me except for the time that I'm there.

seeing how they live, for example. But for you guys, you have to stick with them. Yes. Sometimes for years. And what strikes me is that a lot of the times these problems are not logical, right? Yes. People make decisions they shouldn't be making over and over again. Yes.

How do you see this? Our work is to solve poverty on the street. It takes a whole ecology. It takes everyone in and it's a very long, long process. Youth Go, for example, where Flora is working in, I started this when I was in Home Affairs in 2008 or 2009, that long ago. And that was to solve problems upstream, to reach out to youth before they offend,

And really, even more upstream, so that when we look at the people who have offended, whether they take drugs or whatever it is, they always have some history when they were young. Yes. And if you make contact with them early, hopefully you pick them out

And then downstream, you have less offenders or at least the offence are not as egregious as they send them. Not so entrenched. Yeah, not so entrenched and they can get out. And they have people they have met before. So this continuity of care and also the ecology of care is something that I think in Singapore we are very lucky to have. So Flora may be taking care of one part of the work

But in the government, we have to look at it holistically and we put these pieces together and we try to do it as systematically as possible. But we also must recognise that beyond that, there are other aspects of welfare that is not really welfare. For example, NTUC always say, and rightfully, the best welfare is a job.

Yes, of course. So ensuring we have jobs for people. Make sure that they don't end up in poverty or they have a future and opportunity. Housing, health, all these things have to do with social spending that help to prevent problems downstream. But then people do fall off. That's where our ministry comes in. So whether they are the children, the youths,

the family, the parents. So we put in a whole system of safety net so that when they fall through, it's as temporary as possible. And in Singapore, it's a place where I remember writing this when Mr Lee Kuan Yew passed away. You know, they asked you to post post-it notes. Oh, post-it notes. I don't know why I wrote it, but I wrote this. I said that, you know, if you knew you were going to be born poor or minority, pray to be born in Singapore. They'll take care of you. Okay. He said that? Yeah.

Yes, I thought this is the system Mr Lee Kuan Yew and his mind has created for us. There's always a chance for everyone to do well. But even when you have done well, you can fall off. And then we do not want the family or the person to then fall off and be entrenched forever. And therefore, we want to give them a leg up. And that's why for all families, our philosophy in MSF is to give them stability, to make them self-reliant,

and to ensure that they get social mobility, not for themselves, at least for their children. For their family. Yes. I want to get back to this point about very often it is multifactorial, right? And I feel like it's also generational. It can be quite tough. So I say this because I give you an example, right? I used to teach kids who come from disadvantaged families that

We always tell them, whatever you do, doesn't matter how you do it, just pass and get the diploma, right? Because as long as you get the diploma, you can get a better wage than not, right? But sometimes the getting there is the hard part.

And so there's a lot of falling through. It's just heart-wrenching work, kind of non-stop. So there's always the issue of burnout. How do you deal with that? Just coming back to what Minister shared, I think it's important for us as practitioners to understand

understand the nature of the issues. So actually, it's not really just about my skills, my programme and my services and how effective they are. But moving forward, it's can I understand that these issues are actually nested within a broader system and to ensure that as a social worker, I am also looking for these opportunities to partner with other systems. So it could be a teacher. It could be a teacher, a neighbour or fellow business owner.

who is willing or has a heart for young people and is willing to give out apprenticeships. But how tough is that, right? I mean, to be able to find all these different people in the kids' constellation to say, I'm going to help you. That's what governments do. We organise, especially the agencies, to make sure that everyone is...

Yeah. We know that, for example, being entrenched in a rental home is not good anywhere in the world. Because that's the kind of the place where it's too small for the kids and so forth. It's good temporary shelter, but it's not a permanent home that we want to see for especially the young.

So we have to work then with the housing agency to see how we can help them. Usually it will take, say, eight years to save up. Can we do it in four, for example? What does the family need to do? What do they have to address? And then we bring in the social worker, whether it is about their financial needs, whether it's about the motivational needs, etc.

And in the meantime, they also have to look at their children. Because while they have this complex problem as adults, we don't want the children to be neglected. We want to make sure they still can benefit from the best education in the world that we have in Singapore. And then when the children, like you say, either get the diploma, in fact, NITAC or high NITAC, the family's fortunes change. Really? Yes.

Because suddenly you have an injection of $3,000 into the home, into the family's income. There are some people who say, oh, we are a very wealthy country, you know, we can give more money to people who are underprivileged. That's one solution. But then someone goes to give the money and that's where the government comes in again and say, look, we want to make sure that where we get the money, do not tax people exorbitantly so that it becomes demotivating for them even to work.

So in Singapore, for example, the tax system is such that we take from the income tax really minimally, 21%, 22%. And for a lot of our population, they get a lot of rebates. We don't want to take so much tax that this tax may go to the people who then may have a better life. But it also demotivates the majority who have to work hard to support this small group.

And therefore, you do two things. Number one, make sure that those who are being supported

can have a decent life in an urban setting like Singapore. And that includes needs like education, having a computer, even having a vacation nearby once a year. Give him that discussion. And healthcare, right? If your kid is sick, you shouldn't have to pay too much out of pocket to see someone. And then on top of that, I believe that the generosity of corporates, of people who have done well,

They then top up the kind of things that they like to see other people have to share what they already have. And Singaporeans are actually very generous. Are they? Yes, very generous. I think they can be more generous. See? No, but they are...

call for rich Singaporeans to give more money? No need. In fact, those who give are not just very rich. They are just generous. They don't mind sharing even little but put together is a lot. Okay. So having been in this industry for some time, what do you think is the most successful or I know there's no magic bullet but what works to lift a

a family out of, let's say, intergenerational poverty, dysfunction, addiction, etc.? Well, it takes a whole village to do it. So no one simple answer? There's no one simple answer and every family is unique. But generally speaking, you want to ensure the family gains stability first. Ensure that financially they are okay, they can go to work. If they can't work, then we need to support them for a while. Okay.

Make sure their children go to school and then in the meantime, they don't have the skills to go to the work that is waiting for them. Give them those skills so that they can move from a lower paying job to a higher paying job, for example. So all those things take time. Once they are stable, they can become self-reliant. And then we let magic happen, social mobility will happen. Our solution to inequality, poverty is basically opportunity.

to ensure that every Singaporean, if you have agency, if you work hard enough, you get there. Put the kids in school. This is the number one thing. Precisely. Keep them there.

Not just register them, keep them in school. But you see, that's a challenge, right? So, yeah, you've increased your rates of preschool enrolment. Yes. Attendance remains a problem though, right? For this group. This group. Your under 20% kind of folks, right? That's right. And that's because they do have complex problem. So, we now have instituted a relative new programme called Combling Plus. Yes. Where we look at families living in rental homes and

having children, and we also have extended it to those who are on the Kids Start program. More than 10,000 families. They have a befriender, they have a family coach to befriend them and to journey them at their pace while they are peeling off the problems they are facing. The idea is to do at least these few things. Number one, keep your children in school.

And we give them incentive when the children stay in school, particularly preschool. Right. And then get a job, which is CPF paying. Because when you have a job, which is CPF paying, you also have savings. And then we will use that also to incentivize them into the CPF paying job. We top up the CPF for their saving to then go to the third one, which is getting a home.

So something to do now, which is getting a job, something to get within four to five years, which is getting a home. And within 10 years or 15 years, the child graduates and everything hopefully gets better. Right. But this group, right, about 66% have yet to accumulate income.

Yes. In their CPF, ordinary account, to actually buy a home, right? So that's quite a big number. Indeed. What do you think is the biggest challenge here? So it's the choices people make. Sometimes they just enjoy a cash situation where everything goes into their pocket and they can spend. Yes. Nothing goes into the savings because somehow the job is like that. And they enjoy that, they like that, and then they also like the time that they have in control.

But for the long term... It becomes a problem for the family. Not only for them, because when they grow older, they have no retirement, they have no retirement plan and therefore no retirement life. Yeah. Who then pays for it? Right. It will be society. But if they do it and if they prepare themselves early, get a CPF paying job, for example, accumulate enough, put that into an asset like a home, that becomes your asset.

when you retire. That formula, particularly for this group of people, is a very important thing to have. Fortunately or unfortunately, there are also the gig economy. Which you can't do anything. You see, last time, I used to have some of these students who come and tell me, right? You see, when they graduated, they could get a job at one of those admin jobs or security jobs or cashiering, etc., bartending. But it's long hours. Yes. And it's maybe a thousand plus less than two thousand. Now,

The world has opened up. Yes. They are free to do whatever they want in between their deliveries. So that's the economy that is changing, right? And if I were a young person and I could earn the same, if not more, for less hours, I'm going to take it, right? Yes, of course. And therefore, this Comlink program puts someone who knows, someone who can coach them, someone who makes them aware...

and make them understand someone who they take as a friend we are not sending just social workers who do it as professionally as possible yeah because they might not listen right even if they do many of them are good at the job but then when you have something beyond a listening ear a coach like person who's not just a social worker but someone who can coach and mentor

because they can listen. I think it will make a big difference. I have visited a number of Kham Ling families and I'm very happy that at least for the lower hanging fruits, things are really turning around for them. If we had not been there early in that stage of their life, I think they will be in that same rental house for the next 20 years.

And some of them are already taking action, making plans now to get into a BTO and having a savings plan and getting new jobs, getting new skills. So that's very rewarding for you. Indeed. For me to go there myself. I'm not saying that every family will be like that. But we must move as many of them across the red line as possible. Yeah. I guess it depends on their readiness level. It's not just a matter of having someone there with you. Right.

But actually, for many of them, they are at different levels of readiness. And you can have all the resources there, which I think there has been a lot of effort to make sure that there are certain schemes or incentives. But at the end of the day, you can't force someone to use them. Of course. So it depends on where they are at. And sometimes many things might be occupying their minds or the decision-making process. But the whole work concentrates on three approaches. Number one is family centricity.

We do not just look at the mother who may have family violence, you know, victim of family violence, or the child who may not go to school. We look at the whole family as a whole unit, one that we need to live together, one that we want to address issues as we meet the child, we also meet the whole family and we address issues as they come or when they come.

Secondly, we also look at strength, strength-based approach. So what is it in the family that works, that we can use, we can get them to basically lift themselves up? Because everyone has something. I met one family, for example, the wife wants to spend time at home and do not want to work out there. But you know very well that if she goes out to work, she can supplement her husband's salary. Okay.

Then I just asked her, have you heard of home-based business? Then she said, well, I'm a good cook, you know. I think I can sell, but I don't want to go out. Well, she said,

Why don't you go through this course where they teach you to do marketing for your home-based business and then suddenly you can see her eyes lit up and say, yes, I think we can do this. It's a highly customised approach according to what the family needs. But somebody has to suggest this. That's where the family coach comes in. Do you have enough family coaches? There's so many families.

Yes, we do. We are still looking for more. Okay. But already those who are assigned, I see them really find a fulfilling job. It's still early days, but already for those, like I said, who are already ready to move with the solutions, I'm very happy. Then it's a good fit. Indeed. Yeah.

Indeed. It has to be a good fit between the service user and the service. Yeah. In the past, we wait for people to come. I think social workers are in the FSCs. I'm not saying you're not doing anything, but when people come knock the door, then you say, okay, we have a problem to solve. And I think by the time that happens, it's a bit late. Not only late, very costly to both the taxpayers, to the family, and sometimes intractable. Very difficult. Intractable.

So you want to go upstream as much as possible. And that's why we knock doors early. But then the labour market is very tight. So you need people, right? You need boots on the ground. You need professionals. I know SUSS has just started a new degree in social work, which is great. But my social worker friends are very busy. And burnout is real. So their cases are non-stop, essentially. Yes.

takes a while right it's not as if you can just it takes a long time sometimes it's not like you can just snap your finger and then I have three social workers all ready to go it doesn't work like that right so what's your biggest challenge in recruiting people you know there's a hygiene that we have to address first and that is to ensure that they are paid properly

Yes. Would you pay them equal to an IT grad? It should not be a race down, everyone chasing one another and then raising salaries. It has to also be compared to a...

similar segment for which if you don't pay them well in that segment they can easily go to the other. That's right. And therefore you look at which segments they are and make sure their salaries are competitive. We have benchmarks and many of our works done by what we call social service agencies and we support a lot of that of the salaries that goes into the work that they do on our behalf. I see. But the agencies themselves must make sure they pay that much because they too But you see that's the thing about

about social work, right? It's not profit-driven. It's not like fintech or bank or companies. Indeed. So we want to make sure the costs are not why they shut down or why the person doesn't do the work. Okay. So that's where the support comes as well. Precisely. Government support in that sense. So salary is highly subsidised so that cost matters are put aside first. Yeah. And the second thing is also, of course, the sense of the professionalism of social worker and

This is going to be harder and sometimes more complex because they have to deal with, for example, technology. The people they're dealing with are also not with the same psyche nor culture that my generation has gone through, you know. So maybe even the bottom 20%, but they're educated.

And they make choices that you cannot understand why they get into gambling or they get into addictions, for example, or social media addiction, gaming addiction, those kind of things that destroys a good dynamics within a family. And therefore, they need to be equipped with the most current skill, the most current technology and tools. And at the same time, what we can't do for them is the sense of social mission, that they must come to the job, not as a career person,

I always tell social workers what their real job is. Their job is to find Steve Jobs. Find Steve Jobs? Yeah, because Steve Jobs was a boy given away by a single mother. If the system had not worked, we wouldn't have our iPhone, we wouldn't have our iPods, iPads, iPods.

Yeah, he didn't come from privilege, basically. Somebody adopted him. It was the social system that got him there. So we have a very noble mission, find our Steve job. Okay, but a social worker must be a certain type. You must have a heart for this kind of work. I mean, something that we believe in at Care Corner, and I think for many social workers as well, is that

Ultimately, we want somebody to come in with a heart because skills and competence can be trained. But things to do with your perspective on the issues or how you are viewing young people, for example, or people who are highly addicted, that matters. And that's going to affect the way that you work with them. So we want to make sure that the people who are coming in are capable of empathy.

and that they can think critically as well. So it's a bit of we need the heart and the mind. So cannot, I'm too judgmental. I think I cannot. And there's also one other complication today more than before is that they have to work with people who are not social workers, for example. Oh, yes. As in counsellors, psychologists, teachers. So they have to relate to people who have nothing to do social work and don't understand social work.

So when we started this youth goal, that time when kids have offended, the police at that time want to close the fire quickly and charge the guy.

Because once you charge the person, job done. The school wants that kid out of school because it's so troublesome, right? The social worker said, please don't do either. So I brought everyone together and said, look, it's not about your job. It's about the kid. So let's work for the kid and bring the family together and try to resolve this. And I think now we have got it right. But now the police are taking very long to charge.

Because we don't want them to... But a bit too long. Because what happens is that a lot of my boys, they are about 16 to 17 and then they are about reaching 18, right? Yes. So what happens is that they are just in limbo. I see.

They do have to deal with the most egregious case first. But it's a concern because a lot of them end up feeling like, then let me just stop school. There's no reason to have to engage myself because I think I'm going to go in. And to deal with that day to day, week in, week out, because they're just almost languishing. To them, it's just a matter of gaining quick pleasure. So as long as I'm out with my friends, I can enjoy time with

them money doesn't have to be hard earned which is why we want to make sure they're in school

Because you're in school You're occupied Those guys with that profile I'll tell you why They're not in school also Because they don't really Have to worry about money They're selling all kinds Of things on Carousel And Telegram It's why Because it's easy I mean that's just The ecosystem you guys Are working in now This is what I meant When we talk about What was the past What they were trained for 10 years ago And what they have to meet Yeah It's a totally different problem

What I put in 10 years ago where it was working so well because that was the problem we're trying to solve. Now it's a different problem and they now have to deal with a situation. Telegram, technology, which makes committing crime a lot easier. Exactly. And it makes money easier to come by without putting in the hours, the time, the effort. And no skill.

No proper scan. So one of the things I think we kind of can't ignore is that you were talking about how entrenched some of these problems are. They can be very complicated, especially when there's addiction involved. Quite often when we read about these cases, it's very heartbreaking. I cannot finish reading it. As a parent, I just simply can't. I can't imagine when a case like that comes on your desk. As a parent, as a grandparent, even if you're not a parent,

Just the sheer level of cruelty, for example, leading to deaths. What's, first of all, your reaction? And then how do you look at it from an intervention point of view and a prevention point of view? Like I said, we go upstream as much as possible to prevent downstream problems happening. And even when you do that, there will be those...

that falls through and sometimes it's not because the child protection officer isn't doing the job she doesn't even know there was such a problem we had a case of a girl who's been sitting in the market and everyone passes by and nobody tells us

And until... Precisely. So, really, it takes the whole village to make sure these things don't happen. Right. Families, friends... Neighbours. Neighbours, you know. Because it always strikes me that we live in such a dense population. Yes. Like I can hear my neighbour cooking, right? Yes. So...

What do you think is this thing where a child, for example, is being abused but nobody kind of knows until very much later and it's too late? The upside to that is these are really rare. You really discover it unfortunately very late. But they are rare. Wow.

So I don't want always to point fingers at why didn't you tell us? Why did this fall through the cracks? Precisely. I think the first thing when those things happen, I always write in my mail, how's the officer doing? Because we need to help her first. It has happened. The officer who may deal with this case needs support. Yeah, I imagine that they would be devastated, right? Yes, traumatic. And once I'm satisfied that she or he

is given the support then say, okay, what shall we do now? What to tighten, for example. What to tighten and what we need to improve and to make sure that these things don't happen again. You know, reporting is the simplest thing you can do but sometimes judgments, they evade us. We think it is okay but actually it is already the sign of something going very badly. And that's when I think you have to deal with the situation. Yeah.

Which is why I say I never assume that the day will end peacefully for me. Because I'm always waiting for something to happen. I think it's more intense in home affairs. But it can be very intense. No less painful, I suppose. When it happens. Because in MSF, it's usually children. It's children and women. Yes.

When it comes to women particularly, they are the most resilient of us. And it may be tragic, but you can see they really care for their children. I know one case personally when I was dealing with SNMP. The husband got arrested for drug offence. But that's so many years after. But at that point of time, they just sold the house.

And now the husband is locked up Therefore the CPF cannot be used I see So she has no money and no house Yeah And so we had to work with a social worker and the HDB To make sure that she has somewhere to stay And you know the rule is that if you have sold your house You can't get rental home Oh really? Yeah, I mean you have money right?

But see, that's the rule. But she didn't really have the money. And the agency sometimes don't realize what's happening. So I had to write here, write there, call people and so forth. And then we made exceptions and got her into a rental home. And then I got a call from my assistant. She rejected it.

I said, what happened? We worked so hard to get the exception given to her. Then I found out that she got a place in Bedok and she wants to stay in Tampines because if she stays in Bedok, she doesn't get my help anymore. I said, no, no, no. Please tell her, get that house. You call your friend in Bedok. Who's your friend? No, no, no. I told her, I will help you. But just to cut the story short, this family, now the husband's out. They now have their own home again.

And the daughters are all the Finnish polytechnic. So it takes years. But you know, the satisfaction of seeing something complete well while you have gone through all these difficult works. So I can empathize how social workers go through because as MPs, we also get personally involved sometimes. Yes, yes. And those are the more difficult problems to solve, right? Not like a parking fine that you can waive or whatever. This is tough. You can waive. Yeah.

During election time, it's a kind of wave. Okay, so let's wrap up with a little bit more personal questions. If you were making a pitch to a young person to pick social work instead of banking or finance, what would you say? I think if you're someone who's interested in driving change that is lasting, sustainable and systemic, then this is the place for you. And if you want to develop your thinking...

and grow your heart, yeah, I think this will be the profession for you. Okay. Minister, what would you say? What would your quick pitch be to a young person to join you and help you help these people? You know, I would say that every job is a good job, but there are very few jobs that are meaningful. And,

And I think social work is a very meaningful job. MSF and associated agencies have quite a lot of networks. They do a wide range of work. Psychologists, counsellors, social workers, etc. Do you remember any case...

even a small case that you feel has really touched you. You told yourself at the end of the day, okay, you know what? My job matters. I just told you that story just now of the woman. Oh, the woman with the... Okay. I know this is one of many that our social worker...

make a difference in their life. They do very good work and sometimes very quietly. And which is why this year we are celebrating, because you're celebrating social service professionals. We are doing many things. Among others, we have instituted a president award

for our social service workers. Not social worker alone, but everyone who are in the social service sector. There are not many awards that President give. And now we've got him to agree to do this. It says a lot about what the government, President, for example, and everyone should think about this sector. In fact, the problems have become more complex. Indeed. Indeed. I don't think so. Okay, Flora, do you remember...

A kid you cannot forget, like one of the youths that you helped. Something that I hold quite dearly would be a group of about five of them that we met in the neighbourhood. So they're all friends with each other. They were involved in some criminal activities, but they all had a shared passion for e-scooters. So actually, that's quite common. Yeah, they might be called road pairs and all of that, but...

But a lot of them love engineering or, you know, like using their hands to repair things and build things. So actually what happened was we just did a cold call to somebody who does motorcycle detailing and cleaning. So he just happened to be a dad of one of our other youths who was in this particular business. And he said,

Sure, I'll give them one evening to try it out. And then after that, I'll connect them to an actual course where they can pick up these skills. So the boys went, not too sure what to expect, but they all enjoyed themselves. And to cut the story short, they went for a two-day automotive detailing course. And it was fully sponsored by that company. Oh, wow. It was really nice for me to see over the two days because it's not just about picking up the skills.

But the facilitators and instructors and even the owners of that business took time to talk to these boys. So I feel like I'm not alone in this. But actually, there are people out there who have a heart for young people like that. And they are willing to take that time to don't just give money, but it's like I'm building a relationship with you as you pick up these skills. And I think that's something I hope to see more of for young people who may not be in school.

Or that's not really an environment that they feel successful in. Why can't we have some of these things, you know, like an apprenticeship model where our young people get access to real skills. To learn interesting things that they enjoy, right? And they are exposed and connected to people who care about them and who actually have capital that becomes a resource for them. Yeah. With these boys, it was really nice seeing them in the cert, you know, you feel like they feel masterful at something and it's not something criminal.

Yeah, for once. No, it's not like... A win. Yeah, and after that, they were talking about, oh no, should we just do like a car wash for the community to kind of like practice our skills. So to me, it's about people coming together. One last question. I feel eradicating poverty is an impossible mission. I don't think any society is able to do that.

If you had a magic wand, what would you wish for? The most important thing is that we always help one another. Because there will always be people who are plentiful and there will be people who are needing. And therefore, if we help one another, we will be alright. Recalibrate. Your magic wand gives money. If I can make this magic wand work, it's to make them realise the power of generosity. But it doesn't necessarily have to be money.

Like she says, it can be my time. Yes. Or talent. My business, for example. Come help me fix things. I'll teach you how. I use these three words, talent, time or treasure. Okay. Share it. Okay, Flora, last one for you. Magic wand. Magic wand. Yes. I don't know what to call it, but maybe it's like in every community, there'll be like a school of sorts for misfits.

Yeah, like the X-Men. Sounds like the movie. Yeah. Okay, I wouldn't want to call them misfits. How about fit here better? Yeah. So it's really about moving away from conventional forms of education, employment to more real-world industry type of context.

I like that idea, actually. Any last things you guys want to say? Well, I just want to say thank you to all our staff, our volunteers, our professionals in the social service sector. These are our silent heroes. They may not have solved poverty on the street, but they're always working at it. It's really about staying in touch with what's going on, not just being holed up in our little service or little programme and centre, but

also recognising that actually there are lots of opportunities it's how do we go out there and take hold of them and really see things from start to end thank you alright thanks everyone for listening I hope you enjoyed the conversation and thanks very much to our team Julaini Johari Tiffany Ang Sai Yeh Win Joanne Chan and Hanida Amin thank you and see you soon thank you