Shownotes Transcript
You're listening to a CNA podcast. Just a warning before we start. This podcast contains references to sexual violence.
Hello everyone, welcome back to Deep Dive. Great to have you with us. Today is a bit special because I want to say thank you to my co-host, Crispina, who has been with me for over like 50 episodes since we started Deep Dive. She's been asked by the powers that be to go somewhere else, probably go upstairs. She's been promoted, right? She's been promoted, so I've been left here in the basement. But as you have heard, this is my new co-host, not unfamiliar, Oteli. Welcome to the show. Hello, hello, hello. Yes, yes. Tell people a bit about yourself.
I do the news, just like you. Except that now it's a different platform. But we are still here to talk about very important topics and the discussion goes on. So let's, shall we dig right into today's chat? Let's jump right in.
You may have heard about it recently, the ex-Vice President of the Law Society, Mr Chia Boon Teck, got into a bit of trouble with what he posted online. That's correct. So basically, Mr Chia, he was called out over his comments about a rape victim. And the case actually involved a TikToker who was convicted of raping a woman which he met on a dating app, Tinder, I believe. So Mr Chia was basically criticised for his comments, which seemed to suggest that the victim had a part to play in what happened.
to her. We've probably heard this term before, victim blaming, but we're trying to break it down today. Even the Home Affairs Minister called him out among other folks who said he was engaging in victim blaming. So what exactly is it and why does it still happen? Yeah, so we are so very pleased to have with us. Today we have Mark Yeo, Director of Fortress Law Corporation, as well as Sagitah Nithyanandan, Director of Advocacy and Research at AWARE. Thank
Thank you so very much, guys, for joining us. Thank you for having us. So, Sugi, let's start with you. Explain to our listeners, what is victim blaming? So, victim blaming, very simply, is what people do when a rape or some other form of sexual assault or abuse happens. When people turn around and start blaming or casting either fully or partial blame on the victim survivor for what happened.
So for instance, like, oh, what is this girl? What was she wearing at the time of the incident, for instance? Exactly, Oteli, exactly. What was she wearing? What was she wearing? She went to his room, she sat on his bed and all these things. So victim blaming is when you focus on
and incorrectly on what the victim survivor did to contribute or cause the incident or the assault as opposed to focusing on what the perpetrator did. Right? So first question will be why? Why do people do that? What makes you do that? Because yes, if I were to leave my house door unlocked and I get burgled, people are like, hey, you should have locked your door. Or if I were to buy, drive a red Ferrari, a beautiful red Ferrari, leave it on the side of the road,
unlocked keys in the car and I walk off and somebody steals it. Sure, people are going to say, hey, you should have been careful. But nobody, nobody even thinks to vilify, vilify, right? And cast terrible kinds of cross-examination on the victim survivor to say how wrong they were in driving a red Ferrari. Think of it akin to why were you wearing that sexy dress?
Leaving the door unlocked, leaving the keys in the car. Why were you sitting in a bar? Why did you go back to his room? Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, Mark, perhaps you can weigh in here because it seems like Singapore has progressed in terms of our protection laws. So for instance, like married women.
Even if you're married and if your husband forces himself on you and you've said no, that's considered rape. The laws have tightened with regards to that. Recently, there have been quite a few changes to the law and I think specifically to protect victims' complainants in sexual assault, specifically for sexual assault.
So I think the Minister for Law had already set out, I think, his own Facebook post, some of the measures that the ministry, that the government has been taking, together with the courts, to implement quite a fair bit of protection measures. So for example, in terms of cross-examination, what kind of questions can you ask, for example? It's where sexual offences are concerned, you can't ask questions relating to the complainant's clothes or sexual behaviour.
unless you get permission from the judge. But a lot of people will be saying the environment does sometimes contribute to the offence. You know what I mean? You go into a war zone, you get hurt, you can't come around and say, well, you know, how come I got hurt? But you were in a war zone to begin with, right? So explain to all our listeners why this is sort of different in that respect and why, you know, our environment cannot be held accountable to
the offence that occurs later. So I think there is a line to be drawn between conducting a defence and victim blaming. And I think in the area of sexual offences, it's particularly sensitive because the effects on victims, if they are so found to be victims, is quite damaging. People are already afraid to report
sexual offences. And if they feel like they're going to get blamed, there's a lot of psychological trauma that is inflicted. The trial process in itself is also quite... It's not the most comfortable environment, let's just say. And so, all of these things are more heightened, more sensitive when it comes to sexual offences.
Not so much when you talk about robbery, for example, or like theft. So because it's a sexual offence, so if your house was burgled and you left the door open, in court, you can argue, well, you left the door open. Actually, you can't. And that's the whole point. Okay. And that's the whole point. Even if I leave my door wide open and I walk out, anybody who walks in and steals my goods is still guilty of theft, right? Because...
Okay. Okay.
excuse or no way to read the fact that she decided to meet him because of through Tinder or because she decided to get drunk at the bar because she followed him back to the room none of this leads to consent so I'm curious to know because it's always a bit of a he says she says situation right I mean when you're presenting all of this what does it take to meet that threshold to successfully mount a case
Yeah, so I think one is the factual question of whether there was consent, right? So if he proves that there was consent, either expressly or impliedly through her actions, then that is a defense. There could also be, there must be an intention to commit rape. And if he didn't have the intention, if he genuinely believed but was mistaken that she did consent, that also amounts to a defense. That's where the difficulty arises because very few people
of these offences take place, the offender goes and he says, or the accused person goes and says, can we have sex? Right? Very rarely does that happen. Typically, it starts off at an environment where they meet, let's say a club or a bar or even a dating app. They decide to meet and then they go home and then things escalate from there. Right? And very rarely in those situations will the guy stop, think,
can I have sex? Can I touch you here? Can I touch you there? And touching doesn't necessarily equate to consent to sex. For victims of sexual assault, they don't immediately say, oh, you know, I feel like I have been hurt in any way. Sometimes it takes weeks or maybe a month for them to process. And also, you feel embarrassed whether, you know, should I mount this case or not? Does it make
a difference like the time frame of how long it takes for them to you know make a police report so actually that's the whole point right the whole point is that there is no one way to be a victim survivor there is no one way that a person does or should present themselves when they've been assaulted and
And that is the critical piece of information, which is forming part of the training that the criminal justice system is undergoing now. So that when police officers are conducting investigations, interrogations, when defense counsel and prosecution are examining a survivor on the stand, and when judges are listening to these cases, they are acutely aware of the fact that just because you didn't immediately report it as rape.
just because you didn't go and tell somebody about it does not necessarily mean it didn't happen. Right?
Right? Because different people react in different ways. And that's the whole point about the psychology behind this. So just to play devil's advocate for a bit, I mean, if I'm the perpetrator, you know, in that sense, and you have sex with someone and then three weeks later, she cries foul, then you're like, but on that night, everything seemed fine. Or maybe they might even continue texting each other. I mean, you know, it seems like we were friendly. There was no reason for him to suspect she would then say this. So he feels what's going on, right?
It essentially always boils down to was there consent when it happened? Was there consent? So that excellent example you gave, Mark, in your piece about the taxi driver, right? And how he was acquitted of the crime because he was able to show what some of the sexual acts she undertook, which doesn't necessarily mean she agreed to sex, but there was the audio recording of what was happening in the background. So a judge looks at all of this and makes a decision based on the fullness of
of the facts and evidence put before him to decide whether on a beyond a reasonable doubt the accused did the rape and that's why when in this case of he said she said and Mark will correct me if I'm wrong in those instances when the prosecution's only evidence they have is the evidence of the survivor then there's a very high bar
to ensure that before you convict this person, you are certain that you are beyond a reasonable doubt convinced. And that is, you must be an unusually convincing witness. So the protections are there to make sure that an accused is convicted on proper testimony. But what has always been missing for the longest time, and I'm so pleased that recently in last year, Justice Vincent Hung and Chief Justice Menon both put...
put forward such great judgments talking about why what is rape what are rape myths what is victim blaming and why under the law you shouldn't be doing that and specifically which portion of the evidence act tells you that
By and large, if you're going to victim blame these stereotypes, rape myths, I would consider them as beyond the pale. But of course, you can show if in that particular instance it's relevant. Sorry, you said rape? Rape myths. So what are rape myths? So rape myths are these
untrue beliefs people hold as to why the survivor is at fault for what happened. So like for instance, I'm wearing my sexy clothes, you know, I'm going back to a guy's house or just because I meet you on Tinder for instance. So those are the dangers of the rape myths and they would have far-reaching consequences. So those are the stereotypes which lead to the rape myth which is she was asking for it.
And from that, you move to, so she must have consented. But it's quite shocking, like even in a 2019 survey by a market research involving a thousand Singaporeans, they said 45% of respondents polled agreed that women who wear revealing clothes should not complain if men make comments about their appearance. And this view is not just held by men, but by women as well. So it's still a very... Is that different though? Because that's commenting on your appearance, right?
rape is an actual violation. Yes. Right? Yes, that's true. So they are different. But it is on that trajectory, on that path of the kinds of beliefs that lead to the more heinous beliefs about rape myths. Okay. Right? If you think that somebody who is wearing a sexy outfit deserves its free fair game, you can comment about it. The next step is making those comments in court. The next step is then thinking that if you've worn those outfits...
possibly you went on the date expecting to have sex and probably you consented. You see how it's a slippery slope from there. And it's not just like, you know, regular folks talking about that. It's you talking about the police when they're doing investigations or whether it's the lawyers. Mark, like what's your experience like in terms of, you know, victim bullying or blaming? Yeah, so I think the,
recent judgments from the High Court have clearly set out what is relevant and what is not relevant. So for example, if you talk about a delay in reporting, I think Steve, your example was three weeks later, a woman comes back and says, I was sexually assaulted. What happens in between those three weeks becomes relevant because
it doesn't mean that simply because it is delayed therefore it is not true but it could be one of two things she can testify to the court to say I was ashamed I was afraid I didn't want to subject myself to investigation which are real valid these are real concerns right so
Because of that, I waited three weeks. In the end, for whatever reason, I saw a doctor, I consulted a friend, and they encouraged me to report. That is one type of path we can go down. The other could be because they were in a relationship, they were texting throughout this whole time, and then an argument blew up, for example. And then suddenly a report comes in. So the guy may come and say, look, actually we were still...
no indication she was still comfortable with me but something happened in between us and then this allegation comes up so there is that tension what happens in that three weeks becomes very relevant so those factors will be taken into consideration as well in April 2023 the police actually formed the sexual crime and family violence command to basically raise standards of investigations and what are some of the differences you've seen or that you think have made a difference
I think the purpose of setting up that command and I think together with the one-stop, I think AWARE had a hand in it.
It's because the investigative process can be quite traumatic for a victim of sexual assault. And just the fact of having to repeat your story many times makes you replay that scene in your mind. She first goes to the police, she records one statement. She goes to a counsellor, for example, she repeats it one more time. She goes to meet the prosecutor, she repeats it one more time. She goes to the stand, she repeats it one more time, she gets cross-examined on it.
So just this whole process can be quite traumatic. And I think that was what the policy intent for that command and the one-stop centre was for to do the medical examination. Because otherwise, if you're a victim, you're like, maybe it's better I just don't report it. You want to forget about it, right? And most people don't. I mean, just the thought of having to repeat my story so many times. Exactly. And who's going to believe me? And again, all the rigged myths and all of that comes into their head.
I also just want to throw on the flip side we're talking we mustn't forget that men can also be raped yes right and if we were to flip it around actually would we ask a guy what were you wearing how many buttons of your shirt did you have undone you know I mean right so actually it does then lend a different slightly different perspective to the situation yeah so men being rape victims I think it's a
more recent development because it required a change in the penal code I believe in 2020 to make it gender neutral right and previously before 2020 men couldn't be raped right in the sense that the way that the provision was was
was worded only females could be victims of rape specifically and so part of the penal code amendments together with increasing some of the penalties for some sexual offences was to make it gender neutral such that men or boys depending on their age can be considered victims of rape
Okay. And actually, I want to talk about this Netflix series, which a lot of people have been asking me to watch. Adolescence, right? I haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen it. I'm not brave enough to watch it. It's very intense. But I think in a nutshell, it's about a young boy who murdered a girl. I mean, it's a new generation coming up. They're exposed to social media and there's so much exposure to it. What are some of the conversations that you think need to happen, you know, that we need to talk about to raise that awareness?
Well, when it comes to the show Adolescence, and I've watched it, so it's very interesting. I mean, I love the conversations going on around it. And they're taking off from, I think, episode three, where they talk about references to the incel culture, incels culture in there, which is involuntary celibates.
Right? Oh, okay. That's what incels are. And then there's the manosphere, which is this whole conglomerate of things online where people are talking about misogynistic, anti-feminist things. So part of that culture includes incels, right? So there's reference to all these things in episode three and they talk about, and so you're left with the sense that this boy was probably radicalized and that's where it led to it. It's a great story to look at, to watch and important to understand that really adolescents and children need help.
They need guidance. It tells you that as parents, as teachers, as the community around children and adolescents, you have to stay in touch with them and give them safe spaces. But if you are talking about how do you avoid it, what can you do? Actually, education.
Yeah, in this case, it's more about the environment they're in does shape the way they see the world or the way they see women because they're often objectified in the social media and things like that. Online, exactly. They also tend to believe that. Apart from connecting with children and your adolescents,
The key is we need to educate people about what is consent? What is gender equality? What are stereotypes? What are gender norms? How would you teach when, let's say, it seems obvious, right? When a girl says no, it should mean no. But like Mark explained earlier, you're not going to go like, oh, by the way, are you okay to have sex? After they've had a whole bunch of drinks and stuff like that.
Well, interestingly, this girl said no. This guy said no. She actually said no. Yeah, but in some cases, things kind of just happen, right? And I think that is quite common. I mean, at least where the contested cases come about, the girl doesn't say...
sometimes she goes understand and she says I froze for example but from the accused perspective nothing is said implied consent that's what he thinks implies it as consent and I mean typically if we think about some of the movies that we watched when we were younger it starts off with the guy trying to chase a girl for example girls play hard to get so there is this idea that the man makes the first move right and what is the first move typically he would try to initiate some contact
see the response go a little bit further see the response and in the end what transpires out of it if it then comes back to him he has no choice at trial but to start talking about all of these things right I touched her she didn't say anything I held her hand she didn't pull her hand away which means she didn't mind holding my hand right one would imagine correct
So this is a very difficult gray area. And absolutely right. And that's a great example, Mark, because those are the things that lean into the issues, right? That you have this sense of the expectation that boys make the first move. The expectation, therefore, that you should push the boundaries. And if you don't get pushback, it's okay. Okay.
I think over time and as society is developing, what I think we need to recognize is that we cannot assume consent. Now, I understand this whole thing and that's where the gray area will come. If she actually says no, it's no. If she actually says yes, it's yes. The gray area in between is where everyone's going to be in trouble. It really bears
worth having conversations about this how do you communicate these conversations I can see that from the point of view like hey she didn't stop me so why are you blaming me from the other point if she's really panicking it's her first time she's scared she freezes is it then okay because she then had sex against her will
We have to start wrapping things up. So for all of our listeners, you know, listening and watching this, what advice then, especially maybe Mark, for the guys who are then in these situations, how should they proceed? The key thing is understanding what consent means, right? And that it is no longer a,
situation whereby you can do whatever you want if there's no pushback then all is good I think there has to be quite a lot of sensitivity in terms of and I think it also comes in together with recognition of you know gender equality women's rights when a woman says no it means no I mean a lot of the joke that men used to make especially husbands is the wife says no lah I don't want but if you take it at face value you get scolded right oh do you want this bag no lah I don't want
And then, why didn't you buy me this bag? So we are getting to that place where if she says no, it means no. Just make yourself very clear. Don't try and push it. Especially amongst legal professionals, we do need to be quite clear as to when we encounter these kinds of cases to advise our clients what is relevant, what is really a no-go. If he says, but she did this, then part of our job as defence counsel is to tell him, but
But that is really not relevant in the scheme of things. Let's focus on what's important. I tell the guys, don't put yourself in that situation either. Don't put yourself in a situation where you want... You even start thinking about, okay, is this going to happen? Should I try? Don't put yourself in that situation. And I think that, I mean, of course...
it's easy to say just don't engage in one night stands don't go down that path if you're really stuck there just ask the girl just ask are you okay are you okay are you willing yeah can I go on should I go on are you okay and your advice for women
My advice for women would be that, look, you have to be aware of dangers in life. All of us have to be aware of dangers in life, right? And from the perspective of what happens to women when these things happen, you don't want all these undue
reasonable expectations on us. I am not going to tell women, hey, don't dress sexy. I'm not going to tell women, don't go to a bar and have a drink. We are not back in the dark ages. It took forever for women to come forward, to have a position and the ability to live their own lives. So that really cannot be it.
It has to be about respect and it has to be about communicating what you want with each other. And that's why I say again, the most important thing is really teaching everyone and starting with children and adolescents how...
How do you navigate these difficult situations? What does consent mean? How do you navigate that situation, read the signs, ask each other respectfully? And how do you then figure out what is okay and what is not okay? Because if we don't teach children when they're young, and we don't teach adolescents when they're young, how to navigate these difficult situations, how are they going to know it when they're older? That's right. All right.
Playboy doesn't give you all the good answers. Yeah. Thank you so very much. I think we've gained quite a few tips and points. That's right. So, for all of you who are listening in, I mean, it's a tough topic and I think there is no clear black and white answer, so to speak, you know, but when in doubt, don't.
Don't. And just be clear. Just keep talking, right? Keep the conversations going, yeah. So don't drink so much so that you cannot talk anymore, you know. That's not it. That's often the problem. All right, guys. Thanks so much for joining us on Deep Dive. As usual, if you have any thoughts, comments, shoot us a note. We do love to hear from you. But otherwise, a shout out to the team. Tiffany, Ang, Jidani, Johari, Joanne, Chan, Sayawin and Hanida Amin. That's it for Deep Dive. See you next week. Bye.