Anwar Ibrahim on navigating Malaysia through China-US tensions
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Hello and welcome to this special episode of Inside China. I'm Yonden Latu, Managing Editor of Content here at the South China Morning Post and host of Talking Post, our signature interview series. Much has been said and written about Anwar Ibrahim's odyssey, a 25-year journey of ups, downs and everything in between to become Malaysia's Prime Minister.

From firebrand student leader to rapidly rising political star to political prisoner and now Malaysia's leader. Nearly two years into the job, he is now caught up in a changed world order, having to navigate his country on a delicate course through waters muddied by the global impact of escalating China-US tensions.

We catch up with him in Putrajaya for a wide-ranging conversation in which he gets as candid as he can on camera about everything from South China Sea tensions to his support for Hamas in the Israel-Gaza war. This is Talking Post and here is Anwar Ibrahim.

Prime Minister, thank you very much for joining us. It's an honour and a privilege to have you on this show. Thank you. Let's dive right into it. We'll talk about China-Malaysia relations. Now, you know, this is the... We're marking half a century since China and Malaysia set up diplomatic relations. We have occasions being marked in mainland China, in Hong Kong as well.

Now, you have been quite firm in your relations with China that you will not subscribe to, you will not be consumed by the China-phobia that seems to have consumed the rest of the world. Now, that's fine, but the thing is, most of this phobia is driven, as you know, by geopolitics between China and the US. And the US is a kind of country where it will not accept neutrality. It's, you're with us or you're against us.

How does a country like yours, and your government in particular, how do you maintain a balancing act without antagonizing America, but at the same time forming your strategic partnerships? The intention is never to antagonize anyone, more so America. I mean, it's an important country and it's a superpower. But we take our position, Malaysia is an independent country, and as I've said, and repeatedly so, it is fiercely independent.

Therefore, we will continue to maintain this. Thus far, we are able to navigate it well, but we shall see. But we are reaching a critical point, as you know how toxic geopolitics is at the moment, right? There's literally a campaign from the US and its allies to suppress China, to contain China, and there's a lot of vilification. Now, you have been quite pragmatic.

about doing business with China, which makes a lot of sense. And for example, with Huawei, and you're willing to allow them to participate in Malaysia's 5G rollout.

But again, Huawei is another Chinese company that has been accused of spying, accused of loading its content with ulterior motives. Now, you and I know in this part of the world that when it comes to Huawei and it comes to companies like, say, TikTok, for example, the banning of TikTok, a harmless platform where children upload videos of themselves dancing is being banned in the US. So considering all this,

It's all about suppressing China tech, we know that. But that is not how it's presented in the rest of the world, especially in the Western-dominated narrative. You have been quite, even to the point of being defiant, that Malaysia, you will do what's best for Malaysia. Are you not concerned about sanctions, about retaliation by America? They have given you hints before, right? If not threats. We continue to engage, but enough of this hectoring and condescending attitude.

So far the region, particularly ASEAN, seems to be generally smart, navigating based on our own interests. We listen, we are prepared to continue to engage, but we will not be subjected to any unilateral action. If they have compelling evidence to suggest that any company or any country is causing mischief, then all right, they should adduce evidence.

But otherwise, we will not succumb to that sort of a pressure. It is no longer neo-imperialism or colonial rule. We are an independent nation, prepared to accept the stark new realities. What more during the post-normal times? I mean, precisely, the issue, I'm not going to say is simple, but that seems to be our position. And thus far, we have not encountered serious problems.

Where would you characterize your relations

at this juncture regarding China and what are your plans for future in terms of your partnership with China? With China, I should say that it has been good. But in the last year or so after I assumed the premiership, we have made very clear and I think the relations have gone to be excellent, I should say, both with President Xi Jinping and with Premier Li Qiang. Continued engagement, discussion, frank,

And I value that. And we have agreed to exceed and expand these relations into various fields. That will benefit, of course, both countries, but most of all, Malaysia. Digital, energy, additional training, AI, in all fields. And I would say that the relations have been great because China is willing to accommodate it.

and listen and some of our concerns about training, about getting Malaysians to be involved more so, all these things are being considered. If an issue is raised in the past, some countries including say Africa or even Malaysia in the past, they say the deal was not, rather lopsided, I think the problem is governance.

If you consider other interests, then you fall prey to whatever excesses. But we take our position very clearly and I am of course impressed with the fact that the Chinese leadership support this and they value this sort of friendship, frank exchanges and we even make sure that our demands in terms of the, to protect our interests is met.

You have Premier Lee Cheang coming here for the 50th anniversary celebrations as well. Are you expecting to take relations to the next level now? What are your plans? Well, we're proceeding towards that. In fact, I'm looking forward very much to the visit of Premier Lee Cheang, which I consider to be a major step and will not only enhance, but to cement the relations to be very strategic, comprehensive in all fields,

And I look forward to also this frank exchange with him in a number of fields that would benefit Malaysia. It's not all such a rosy picture though, is it? I mean, because of, let's take for example China's maneuvers in the South China Sea. Now, of course, China is protecting its territorial integrity and it's asserting itself regarding its territory. Every country does that. But so does Malaysia. Malaysia has territorial integrity to protect as well. And there can be a little bit of a problem there.

Well, we have problems all. I mean, neighbors. Do you have like a bottom line? Currently, where China is regarding the South China Sea and where your country stands, you have some kind of bottom line that you can't cross this? Well, let me put it this way.

Why this obsession, tendency to exaggerate the problem, border issues with China when we in Malaysia or the Thais or Brunei or Indonesia all have problems with the neighbours? We have not actually cemented agreement in all areas with the borders. But does it mean that it is tension and it's tense or causing difficulty in relations? No.

The relationship with Singapore is super excellent, with Thailand, with Indonesia. But all these countries, we have problems with the borders. So why then pick and choose and exaggerate the issues with China? Do we have a problem? Yes. Have we encountered any serious clashes or problems? No. Do we think this is going to be easily resolved? No. But what is the mechanism? It's discussions, dialogue. Do we then concede? No.

But what I am, I should say, not amazed but appalled is this idea of, yes, we have a problem with China only. And that is, of course, to me, untenable and unacceptable.

You've taken another pragmatic approach here where you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense, that the South China Sea problems should be handled by ASEAN. Not necessarily broadcasting it to the world, but quiet diplomacy behind the scenes, which all makes a lot of sense. Now, you'll be taking over the rotating chair of ASEAN next. Congratulations on that. How are you going to solve the South China Sea problem, or at least

mitigated through the ASEAN-CHE? Well, bilaterally, multilaterally, or at a regional basis, continue to engage and negotiate. But what is particularly important is avoid any sort of skirmishes.

That is why the concern expressed by the Philippines or the Chinese when it comes to China-Philippines engagement is of course of some concern to us. And my position either to the Chinese or to the Philippines is to say, look, you try and engage without third-party intervention.

It's important to impress on the Philippines or on the Chinese that we are here, we must be prepared and able to manage our own affairs. Now I do accept your point about not exaggerating the problem, not making it worse than it is, right? But at the same time, you do realize that in this region,

Take Taiwan for example. There are circumstances that may be beyond anyone's control where a war could well break out. Taiwan for example, now this is part of China's territory as far as China is concerned, but you have US warships patrolling the region, you have Taiwan being armed to the teeth,

There is only so much of provocation that Beijing can take as far as its territorial integrity is concerned and its strong feelings about Taiwan. These may be well beyond your control or beyond ASEAN's control, and this is mostly with the US in particular, but it's going to drag the whole region into some kind of conflict.

I know you propagate neutrality, but you may well end up having to make a choice. You may well have to end up picking a side. Whose side will you take? Well, China and Taiwan, we're not dealing with two countries. Of course not. We accept China policy. So, it's a different configuration. And therefore, our position is, it should be seen to be purely a domestic matter.

that must be resolved peacefully and amicably between the two entities. Because we have recognized, in fact the world generally has recognized one-changa policy. And therefore, we have to caution other partners, including the United States, not to be deemed, to be seen, to be provocative.

because it will affect us invariably. Now, whether we will be neutral in this commission, it depends. If those who have the propensity or deemed to be provocative, then of course, we'll have to voice out our concern. But as it stands, I think even this issue is being exaggerated.

The problem or the potential of China invading Taiwan or causing problems to the whole region, I've heard it for the last 50 years. Sure, but that's thanks to the leadership in Beijing being very pragmatic in that sense. You hear this message all the time from Beijing that we will not invade Taiwan, but we also have a bottom line how far we can be pushed.

So it is a domestic matter, you're right, but the US has made it an international matter where it is the foreign power in that region. It's got its warships in the region, it's surrounded China, and like I said, this may be well beyond anyone's control. So the war may break out just over inadvertence, some kind of enemy fire, accidental fire, anything can happen.

Well, I'm not worried, too unduly worried. I'm more optimistic. I understand, I know the concern and also the responsibility and magnanimity of many of the Chinese leaders. They know how to navigate the situation. For thousands of years they've been there.

So we need to caution. That is why in ASEAN we have insisted the issue of not only neutrality, I mean neutrality is our position so that we can engage, but it doesn't mean that we are not concerned on the issues of what is right, what is wrong.

We have made it quite clear that we do not want any third power to be involved in this commission because it will only be deemed to be provocative. For example, we have some arrangement, territorial waters with the United States, we have with China, we have with Japan, but we do limit within Malaysia's territorial waters to protect the nation, not to be seen to be

on the offensive against any other neighboring country. Prime Minister, let's move on beyond talk of war and something more constructive. You know, we are our newspapers from Hong Kong. And as you know, again, there is an element of negativity here because Hong Kong is a part of China and the geopolitics that is going on between the United States and China, Hong Kong is an unwitting casualty of this conflict. And you must have heard all the

dominant Western narrative about Hong Kong is not safe anymore. It's not a good place to do business anymore. Do you subscribe to any of that? Well, I've heard that since the days when Chris Pratt was governor of Hong Kong, prior to the surrender. But it's not happened. There are ups and downs, but people can navigate. I always trust in the ingenuity of the people there. And if Hong Kong, of course, had been that culture, that tradition, they would manage.

Of course, there are times the spiraling price hike and the cost will benefit Singapore, Malaysia for a while, fair, but they will manage and they will survive. You know, one offshoot of this geopolitics between the United States and China, especially with the containment of China, the suppression of China's rise,

Hong Kong now has become more relevant than ever as a gateway to China. This is an old slogan, but now more than ever as a gateway to China, not only that, but also a gateway for China to connect with the rest of the world. We are an international financial center. And we are also a gateway now to the Greater Bay Area, which has tremendous business potential. How is Malaysia going to capitalize on that?

No, we are. In fact, we are benefiting because people look at not only Hong Kong and extension. I made this reference to even, say, for example, Germany when they say de-risk, de-risking policy. We benefit not only Hong Kong but most of Malaysia and some countries in Asia. We take it like that. I believe the competition is more in terms of complementing.

This principle of complementarity is of benefit to us. And even our immediate neighbour Singapore is doing and thriving, fair, but because they are thriving, we benefit.

the economic zone for example in Johor would benefit us so I think we see it in a different light not in the fierce competition but competition in a positive sense and complement one each other I consider the development and the north potential of Hong Kong to be that way I mean we've been there for the last centuries and it does not necessarily be deemed to be negative or the expense to anyone we should then work together

and strive to make sure that we are able really to complement. Let's move on to something which you have talked about a lot, which is the war in Gaza.

Now, when we talk about a war in Gaza, I'm not even sure if the word 'war' is the correct term, because we're talking about one side which has an air force, an army, a navy, and we have another side which has mostly just helpless civilians crammed into a narrow stretch of land. 36,000 people dead. So, I know you've been very vocal about supporting the Palestinians for many, many years, and now more than ever.

Apart from material and moral support, what can you actually do to stop the bloodshed, which is not happening yet? You do have overtures from the U.S. in terms of instructing Israel to back off, to sign a ceasefire, and we have a lot of ceasefire talks, but you know Israel's track record of...

overturning ceasefire. And Malaysia wants to play an important role in this because of your deep feelings for the Palestinians. But what can you do practically? There's a lot of rhetoric, there's a lot of talk, but I don't see much in terms of actually achieving something. This war has been going on for a long time. Again, war, I use it quote unquote. - We're usually very complex, as you said, it's not war, it's clearly aggression and colonization.

The atrocities continue. We have done our maximum what a smaller country can do. We've been very vocal. We have raised funds to assist the civilians, medical and food. And we have continued to engage. I mean, our foreign minister met Minister Wang Yi a number of times to express our support for the Chinese initiative.

And I've said it in front of Joe Biden, in front of Olaf Scholz. I mean, there's a maximum we can do. But the superpower there is United States.

President Joe Biden, the last few days, have taken a relatively bolder step, but that's short of ensuring that Israel observes this. So it is, to me, that's why I use the term hypocritical. It's totally insane to imagine that the killings can continue of children and women and this superpower,

major ally of Israel is unable to do anything. Nobody believes that. - But it's not doing anything. So far, you're all calling for a ceasefire, you're all calling for an end to the bloodshed, a peace process, but we're a long way off from it, as long as Netanyahu's in charge there. - Well, it's not just Netanyahu, the whole philosophy and policy of the state of Israel, and I think that shows the ultimate

failure of the international order and the hypocrisy of the so-called democratic values and human rights of the West. I mean, there are a lot of positive measures, ideas that I certainly respect and admire. But in terms of practical action, which is, I have said it's hypocritical. Nobody believes. Do you really mean you believe in human rights or based on colour or, you know,

So that has been a major problem and it will unfortunately be a dark spot and will adversely affect the thinking, particularly of the young. Whom do they trust now? Is there also a deficit in terms of unity among Muslim countries to present a united front to put a stop to this?

Or are they not influential enough, even if you had enough unity? Of course the Muslim countries are not united as a force. But on this issue, there has been consensus within the Arab League, within the Organisation of Islamic Conference, OIC. We have taken a somewhat similar position. You know, immediate cessation of hostilities, return of hostages and political detainees, thousands of them in Israel.

and respect a permanent two-state solution. And that's been accepted. And interesting enough, my engagement with Hamas is there. They've expressed. But they say, of course, contingent upon the Israelis accepting the fact that they should not continue with these bombings and killings. How do you then say, we want peace, we'll agree with you, but you continue to kill people. You can't do that.

You mentioned Hamas. Now, isn't there an element of a significant problem here regarding your relationship with Hamas? I mean, do you consider Hamas to be a completely innocent party here? This latest escalation that's been going on for so long now, it was triggered by the Hamas attack. How do you reconcile both your support for the Palestinians, your...

balancing act that you play with Western powers that have a lot of influence over Israel and at the same time your support for an organization that they are determined should always be branded as a terrorist organization? Well, colonization over the last 70 years, the escalation and to the West Bank, the killing and the

dispossession of people's lands has been continuing long before Hamas was formed. So this absurd, non-surgical argument to suggest that it is Hamas, I mean Hamas was just recently formed, long before Hamas has been going on. And why do you erase that part of history? Pre-7th October and post-7th October. And that would be my contention. Do I then believe that any group

or condone any killing of children? No, I don't. But remember, as I've said this in many places, the last was in Tokyo, the last few weeks. I said, so Mandela was a terrorist until the world took a position that, look, he was a freedom fighter and considered a great hero and darling. Remember, just 20 years or 30 years before, look what the UK media and the UK government and the states considered him.

Sure, one man's terrorist can be another man's hero. But when you compare it with what happened with Mandela, are you saying that Hamas also could one day be hailed as heroes globally and celebrated as… Well, I hope so. Because they are actually freedom fighters. They want to free their land. IRA is part of the government now. I recall when I was young, the IRA was just terrorists, period. Not one single positive thing that they have done.

They were just corrupt and terrorists. That's it. That's what I've been told. So don't be deluded by this constant, incessant propaganda from the Western media. You have good relations with Hamas and I think you have some insight into their thinking.

as to how this conflict is going to end, the current conflict and the hostages they hold. What do you think will happen? I continue to engage with Hamas for the last many, many years and I continue and of course I express my sympathy to Ismail Haniya when his children and grandchildren were killed on this auspicious Muslim celebrations day and

Okoah discussed it very frankly. I wanted to know his position, what's happening. At the same time, I said, look, I represent a view that want amicable resolution, immediate peace, and return of hostages, of course in exchange for peace, and the return of thousands of political prisoners in Israel. And I'm pleased that the political wing of Hamas, at least, that I'm engaging with, not with the other wing, I have no contact with them. I

is happy to accept the Arabic recommendations or the OIC, which to me is fair. And now with the latest initiative by President Joe Biden with Qatar and Egypt, I mean, they seem to be ready. But of course, the condition is to stop the bombing. But Israel has refused. You see, why can't you now focus on Israel, Netanyahu and Israel? The problem is no longer with Hamas now.

Do you see a Palestinian-Israel two-state solution eventually? At some stage the Palestinians will have their own country or at the rate we're going, will the Palestinians be wiped out before we can come to that situation ever? Well there's the belief of Hitler when they slaughtered the Jews, they emerged. That's happening now, Israeli bombardment of Gaza, the intention is clear.

I mean China's history has been a series of attempts by foreign powers to annihilate the force. It doesn't work that way. They are not God. And I believe in the wisdom of people and finally truth prevail and justice be given rightly.

Prime Minister, we're running out of time, but I do want to say something. You have taken 25 years to reach where you are now. So in terms of tenacity and persistence, I think nobody can take that away from you. You're some kind of a comeback king, so to speak. So what kind of legacy do you expect to leave behind? I know your deep feelings about Palestine and to see a peaceful solution is one of them. Do you expect to see that within your premiership?

You see, there's one episode, but what is interesting stems from my belief that we are human beings. There must be humanity, there must be human values, there must be compassion and justice. Malaysia is a multiracial country. Of course, the majority are Malay Muslims. But I am determined to prove that Malaysia can be a country that is just.

for the minorities, the marginalized must be taken care of. If there's one thing, one legacy I want to leave behind, is that there's one man, crazy as he was, in and out of prison, but he tried his best to save his country through good governance, rid the country of corruption, and show proof that you can champion the cause by upholding the principle of justice and compassion.

On that very optimistic note, Prime Minister, I do hope you will achieve what you aim to. Thank you very much for your time and for sharing your wisdom with us as well, especially our audience in this part of the world. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this edition of Inside China. Don't forget the Talking Post video version of this interview is available on scmp.com. Take care and bye for now.

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