Trump’s ‘ritual humiliations’ hit US diplomacy
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Welcome to The World in 10. In an increasingly uncertain world, this is The Times' daily podcast dedicated to global security. Today with me, Toby Seeley and Stuart Willey. Another week, another tense meeting in Donald Trump's Oval Office. This time the turn of South Africa's President Cyril Ramaphosa to be ambushed in front of television cameras.

After lowering the lights and playing a video, Mr Trump made false claims about a white genocide and angrily shouted down journalists challenging him. It all echoed an earlier meeting in the same room where Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelensky was berated and then told to leave the White House.

It prompts the question, could this departure from the usual polite diplomatic norms to a more muscular and direct approach, shall we say, help or hinder global diplomacy? With us to unpack it all is The Times' assistant US editor, David Charter. David, you've been in the Oval Office as Trump welcomes leaders before. What did you make of this week and how will other world leaders be framing it? This is certainly Donald Trump's

showing that he is like the greatest exponent of the performance presidency. When you combine his love of TV cameras and the microphone with America First, it really is a flashing warning sign for any leader that's got some major problem with the United States who wants to come here and

have a diplomatic exchange to try and iron out those wrinkles. We've seen that Trump would rather air those differences in public, at least initially, before they get down to their serious talking. By all accounts, they did have a serious chat afterwards, but Ramaphosa had to endure for

Similarly to Zelensky, he had to endure the full onslaught of Trump's PR machine. And of course, when you're sitting in that chair next to Trump in the Oval Office,

You're in such a global goldfish bowl that it's really a no-win situation. If you fight back, there's J.D. Vance waiting on the couch to join in with the assault. And he did actually, with Ramaphosa, he passed Trump this great big wad of printouts of reports of horrible murders in South Africa, just as he did in joining in the raiding of Zelensky. And if you sit there and take it,

It's basically a ritual humiliation almost for up to an hour until Trump decides it ends. The last thing that Trump said to Zelensky after all of the heated language and back and forth, almost the last sentence that he said was, this is going to be great television. And there you have it, really. Trump is almost, it's a performative presidency. And it's one that

deprioritizes the longer term impact of what he's actually doing to get him great coverage on the day. Certainly in international relations, it doesn't really seem to be looking that much further over the horizon. These ritual humiliations, as you put it, do seem a new development. How much of a departure from the norm are these fiery Oval Office ambushes?

In days gone by, this will be a lot more stage managed. The diplomatic teams right up to the foreign ministers or the Secretary of State would have done loads of preparation for

the leaders would know exactly where they were in terms of all the issues of the day. And they'd know each other's positions inside out. And I think in this case, there wasn't much in terms of discussion at all between President Trump and President Ramaphosa before the Oval Office event. And that Oval Office event

meeting has traditionally been the initial greeting, really for brief opening statements. And then would follow their teams and them going into a private room to have the real tough talks. And at the end of that, they would come out and have a big press conference. And that was usually held in the East Room of the White House, which is a big setting where you can put

A hundred seats for journalists and people crowd around the edge as well. And all the TV cameras are arrayed at the back. That's nearly always been the case in almost every American press conference I've been to for different presidencies. I remember going to see Tony Blair.

meet George W. Bush back in the day. And it was three questions for the American media, three questions for the British media. We knew who was going to ask the questions. We didn't know exactly what the questions would be. But if you've only got three questions each, you pretty much know they're going to be the three biggest issues of the day. And it's not going to veer off into some left field discussion about why aren't you wearing a suit, for example, which is what came up with President Zelensky from one of the Trump-friendly journalists.

So it's very unusual for Trump to use the Oval Office like this in two ways. One is that it's not the normal setting for a major press conference, but Trump seems to love the hustle and bustle of it and the theatre of the setting of the Oval Office. And two, it takes place normally before they've had their proper discussions. And so it's all part of the set-up.

And this, again, is one of Trump's things from his business days. Before the crunch meeting, Trump likes to, what he calls, set the table by putting out all the pressure he can on the other side to come round to his way of thinking. And now we've seen very dramatically in the case of the South African president that part of that setting the table is to

ambush him with a video of alleged malpractice and atrocities, etc., that are part of the substance of what Trump wants to discuss later on. Who are the winners and losers here? Might we see world leaders swerving meetings with Donald Trump, or at least doing much, much more preparation before they actually head to Washington? There's no real way

preparing for an onslaught if that's what Trump's determined to do. Having said that, the United States is the preeminent world superpower at the moment and is unavoidable for most countries. They've got to interact with it as part of existing and prospering in the international world order. The United States is unavoidable and therefore Trump is unavoidable. So you've

There will come a time for most leaders, I was just discussing with a friend in Australia yesterday how the Australian Prime Minister will probably come. And that is very much an allied nation that it should be, he should get a fair wind of

but other countries have got a shakier record of relations with America, will be very much on their guard. I have to say that one upshot of the showdown with President Ramaphosa has been highlighted by the Democrats straight away, which is that this performance by Trump may look good for his supporters, certainly hits various people.

MAGA talking points. But the Democrats point out that here's a country that is being courted by both Russia and China, a mineral-rich country, a regional force that has a lot of influence over the continent of Africa, and it's actually very bad diplomatic practice to lose the prospect of future relations between

with South Africa when it might simply opt to do more deals with China and Russia going forward. You ask who the winners and losers are. Well, the loser could be in the long term the United States if it's losing this geopolitical battle with China in particular for influence over Africa. So a real risk of damage, I suppose, especially in how countries might trust the United States.

Could this all do the opposite of making America great again? Well, if you listen to Trump, he will continually tell you that America is respected again. However, I think from the outside, that looks like America is regarded with trepidation, even by allies. Trump interprets that as respect. But what it is, I think, and we're seeing this time and time again now, is that countries who are traditional allies...

aren't very nervous about keeping the alliance that they've long had with America. And they're just not certain whether it's going to continue going forward. So they're doing their best, as I say, to placate Trump and trying to work with him. They have to work with him because you talk about

America only being the top nation because of trust, but it's not that. It's economic and military power. The American military is the guarantor for plenty of potential hotspots around the world still, although Trump is busy trying to rein that in. And the American economy is absolutely crucial to the world because even China and Japan's economy run

on all the dollars that they've bought up over the years. So everyone's invested in American success.

simply because of its position in the global order. David, thank you. David Charter is The Times' assistant US editor. Earlier this week, we looked at whether Trump's diplomacy might shift the needle with Russia's President Putin. Scroll back to listen to the episode, Is a Trump-Putin meeting the only way to Ukraine peace? But that's it from us. Thank you for taking 10 minutes to stay on top of the world with the help of The Times. We'll see you tomorrow. ♪

Hi, this is Dori Shafrir. And Elise Hu. And we're from Forever 35. And today we're talking to you about Athleta. It's athletic gear made for women who can do anything. We've been fans of Athleta styles for years because they're so much more than just a style.

they're designed for the different ways a woman moves, whether that be a tennis match, a 5K, just picking kids up from school. And some days my movement is less about exercise and more about just living my life. Because when women move, they create change for themselves and the world around them. And no matter how we move our bodies, athletic clothes deliver performance innovation without sacrificing style.

We all need a little confidence boost from time to time. And when we're confident, we're unstoppable. Athleta can be that boost. Athleta, designed for the power of she. Did you know that foreign investors are quietly funding lawsuits in American courts through a practice called third-party litigation funding? Shadowy overseas funders are paying to sue American companies in our courts, and they don't pay a dime in U.S. taxes if there is an award or settlement.

They profit tax-free from our legal system, while U.S. companies are tied up in court and American families pay the price to the tune of $5,000 a year. But there is a solution.

Thank you.

innovation, and growth. Only President Trump and congressional Republicans can deliver this win for America and hold these foreign investors accountable. Contact your lawmakers today and demand they take a stand to end foreign-funded litigation abuse.