Is This Really the Chrome Killer?
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I mean, you don't bet in blackjack, but it's still fiddling. Yeah, you do. You don't pick at a mountain and say, I'm betting this much. Yes, you do. That is exactly how you play blackjack. I like to just play until you're like, no, I want to stop. And then when you decide you stop, you put more money down. Every single hand you put more money down. And you say, I am putting this much money. Oh, then never mind.

- Yo, what is up people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the waveform podcast. We're your hosts. I'm Marques. - I'm Andrew. - And I'm David. - And okay, this week we've got a hilarious pixel 10 leak. It's happening again. We're back. - We're back. - The cycle repeats itself every year. But we also have a really impressive and funny Dyson product. And also we've got the CEO of the browser company joining us later in this episode to help us figure out what's going on with Arc and the wide world of browsers. 'Cause there's a lot happening.

But first, I just want to thank you guys for subscribing. This is a subscriber-only episode. We fixed the bug from last week where non-subscribers could watch, so we appreciate you. Thanks for tuning in. If you're watching, you are subscribed.

Hopefully that bug doesn't happen again. Also, there's a quick survey we want to ask you to fill out. If you have some time, the podcast network we're a part of, Vox, is looking to figure out some extra information about what's working well in the podcast space, what's not, what you like about Waveform, what you don't. So we'll have a link in the description if you have some time and you want to check that out and be super helpful to the rest of the podcast on our network.

So thank you for that. Yeah. Anyway, we should jump right in. Andrew has a tech support question. Okay, I do. I kind of want to chime in too, but I'll let you take it down. Cool. Ever since I've updated to One UI 7, I think I mentioned briefly that I have really been enjoying... Which phone do you have, by the way? S24. Regular S24? Regular S24. Okay. So...

So I've been enjoying One UI 7. I did do the like notifications change. So they're all together. I don't love the vertical scrolling app drawer. I was really used to my pages. I know you can do it, but then it takes them out of alphabetical order. Anyways, I've been enjoying it, but I've been having this issue for like the last two weeks. My wireless charger at home overnight, I keep waking up at like 20% battery.

And I cannot tell exactly what's going on. You didn't get fully refreshed when you slept? No, yeah. My eight sleep is just like, maybe you should try falling asleep. Only a 20% charge? My phone, I put it on the same charger I've been using since before I've had this phone. It has always worked every single night because I have a MagSafe case and it's a MagSafe charger. So I don't have to worry about it getting knocked off the charger at all. I put it on and I fall asleep and I wake up and it's not charged.

And it doesn't happen every night, but I would say in the last week, five of the nights. That's bad. It's really bad. That's five sevens. Yeah. In fact, the last two nights I've gotten it because I've put it on the charger. Sometimes it says it's charging and then like within the next 30 seconds, it'll stop charging, which I think is what's happened a couple of times. The last few nights I've put it on and like watched it like a hawk.

And then like we'll watch a YouTube video and then I'll tap it and make sure it's still charging. And then I'll go to sleep knowing it'll then then I wake up at 100 percent. That's anxiety inducing. It's horrible. So if you had just told me this story in isolation, I would have gone, I don't know. I think something just might be wrong with your phone. Something probably just went loose in the back and maybe you need to have it repaired or something like that. But I've also been daily driving a Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra.

also updated to one UI with the latest software update and I also Lately have started having more times that I wake up and my phone hasn't charged And I also have a bedside wireless charger. It's kind of annoying that there's no wires So I some phones that I test don't have wireless charging and I'm just whatever but I have a wireless charger next to my bed So I put the phone on the wireless charger and I usually do a pretty good job of placing it right where I know the wireless charging coil is and then I wake up and it's charged and

and probably two out of the last five nights it hasn't, especially the last two in a row. And that, to me, is more than a coincidence. That we both have a Samsung phone, we just both updated the software, and yours can't be an alignment issue because you have the magnets. And so I would have thought mine is just a coincidental alignment issue, but now I'm starting to try to think deeper. It's weird. I haven't tried with too many other chargers. I tried with our Ridge PowerBank, and...

It wasn't working, and then I kind of got it to work a little bit. That may have been a pre-production unit, so I'm not 100% sure. Maybe the power bank was just being a little weird. I have one of those Nomad full desk ones, and when I put it on that where it's completely covered, it seems to work every time. So it's enough of an issue where I think it could be user error somewhere. It just feels so weird that

a charger with two magnets that's literal only purpose is to make sure it's not knocked off. That has worked for me for over a year. I update and then it stops working. - I think what we should do, 'cause two is still not a huge sample size, I think we should pass this on to the audience. Anyone who has been washing dishes listening to this, if you've also had this happen, if you have a Samsung phone with the latest software update and have started having wireless charging issues,

Let us know in the comments section. I will say David's searching it right now. Music AI mode. Ooh. Yeah. I'm sure that'll nail it. It's not helpful. The only thing I've found when I've searched online is there were a few people in One UI 7 having issues with fast charging through a wire. It's like they're not getting the full speeds that it should have been. And that was only a couple little forum posts. So I don't know specifics.

I'm not totally sure if it's just a weird bug. I've been trying to figure out if it's like I put my phone on and I tap the screen and is for some reason it waking up and then going back to sleep doing something weird. It doesn't make me feel confident waking up

That'll have battery charge. Well, there are two people on the Samsung website that say after the one you I saw an update It says it's charging but it does not actually increase the battery percentage Yeah, I had consecutive nights one where I started with 19% and woke up with 19% another where I Knew this had happened the previous night. So I specifically lined it up Perfectly and made sure it was charging went to sleep woke up the next morning 40%

So either it charged super slowly or it charged up to 40 and then stopped charging. The one time I did look at it, I looked at the battery like charging graph and I saw it go on the night and for like two bars it was charging, then stopped. And then like at five-ish or six, there was a bar. So I was wondering if it was the like,

because I don't have alarm set on my phone, was it, is it trying to optimize for the like, don't charge it until X amount of time till later. But since I don't have an alarm, it didn't want to do it. Um, but I'd never used alarms on the last update. Maybe it got, I don't know. Yeah. Let us know in the comments if you are anywhere near where we are with our Samsung. You haven't used alarms. I use it on my watch. So we fully converted you to not using your alarms as your to-do list.

Oh yeah, I don't use alarms at all for anything anymore. We did it! We did it! The podcast is over. The waveform podcast saves lives. We fixed him. Well, lucky for you, Samsung is already testing the One UI 8 beta in select countries. This is for Android 16, right? Yeah, Android 16. They're emphasizing multimodal capabilities. It's only available in the US, UK, Germany, and South Korea. I believe we're in the United States.

So you may be able to do this, but you would have to have an S25. You sure about that? I don't know. We might be part of Canada pretty soon. Anyway, so maybe look into that. But you can't because it's only for S25s. Got him! Why don't you try this? Just kidding. You thought. Speaking of things that sometimes charge...

You put some Dyson event on here. I did not see the Dyson event. I did have a friend randomly text me and say, hey, you see that new Dyson though? And I was like, what the hell? Okay, no, it's cool. Did either of you watch it? I posted it in our Instagram chat.

No, that's okay. It's just a clip. It's fine. I'm still on the minimal phone. I don't have Instagram. Good excuse. Your phone also freaked out when you picked it up. It does that, you know. So people are really that hyped about vacuum cleaners. Okay. First of all, this one. This is pretty cool. Okay. This one doesn't suck.

But doesn't it? I think this is simultaneously really cool and makes zero sense at all at the same time, which seems pretty par for the course for Dyson, even though I love my Dyson stick vacuum. Yeah. I'm going to play this and kind of explain what's going on, but

then you can see what I'm talking about. So he's showing on stage this 38 millimeter motor that's inside their products. 'Cause like we all know Dyson, they're not really bladeless, it's inside the handle instead, right? So like these are their small handheld hair dryers with a little motor inside of the handle. - Sure.

And it's only 38 millimeters. And then they launched this new product with that same motor, which winds up being the wildest stick vacuum you could ever imagine that he pulls out of this like pipe behind him. And that is the entire vacuum. He like sticks a vacuum head on it. And it is, I mean,

A pole at best. Oh, this is why people are excited. This was part of the set. It was like part of the set. He just pulls out. It was there the whole time. No one noticed because of how thin it is. It's like in Willy Wonka where he's like, you thought this was factory? No, it's candy. It's like, you thought this was set? Nope. More vacuum. So where does the stuff go? That's exact. After you think this is really cool, then the first thing he goes, can it hold any dirt that it vacuums? Yeah, it's kind of like how most Dysons are amazing, but they last 20 minutes.

I love my Dyson vacuum. My Dyson lasts a solid 40 minutes. Just, you know. Exciting. I never vacuum for more than 40 minutes. That's fair enough. That's probably why it's designed that way. So you show some other cool things about how the new head can show dirt with this whatever light. And if it does hair, it actually rolls all the hair up, shoots it to the side, and then you re-roll over it so it doesn't get caught in all of the blades. It detects hair.

It's just like the way the blades are set up in this cone shape. It filters them out to the outside. But anyways, I just thought it was wild that they have a motor that's powerful enough that's that small that can power an entire vacuum. Where do they put the AI? I'm pretty sure it's got hair detector. You know what's funny? Dyson, you remember that Vision Pro app where you could like vacuum and it would show you where you vacuumed already and you put like coins or whatever? Yeah.

I scrolled down on Dyson's site and they have literally a mount that you put your phone attached to your vacuum cleaner so you can see where you vacuumed before with AR. Okay. This company is wild in the best way. I want to talk to them. I agree. That's so genius. I mean, James Dyson is like...

the son of the guy that invented the company, right? They're on one. This is the pencil vac. This event seemed pretty short and it was like really chill. He was just like, this is it. This is what it is. Okay. Cool. Like look at it and that's it. Available later this year. Why do they have a keynote event for a vacuum cleaner? It's more than just a vacuum cleaner. Is that where we're at? James Dyson founded Dyson. He's the guy. Oh, he's still there. To get one. This is him.

Craziest Wikipedia, one of the craziest Wikipedia page introductions. James Dyson is a British inventor, industrial designer, farmer, and businessman. Yeah. There's a really good how I built this episode about Dyson. Oh, really? I would listen to that. It's super good. To give them credit, we don't really talk about any other vacuum company because they're not that interesting. Yeah. Dyson is...

Making a weird category we don't usually talk about, kind of interesting. I mean, they have tiny motors and they just put them in stuff. Vacuums makes a lot of sense. They also did hair dryers. They also did that fan, the bladeless fan. They did the headphones with the mask that gives you COVID. They also did the worst product of all time. So yeah, they're out here innovating. They do keynotes. That is kind of the...

pinnacle tech keynote thing you can do is go, that product, that's a top secret. It's been in front of you this whole time. Boom, part of the set. That's true. That is pretty cool. Every tech company wants to do something like that. That's true. So shout out to Dyson. Yeah. Dyson's got this weird thing on our podcast where they left a sour taste in our mouth when they wanted to do that sponsored thing a long time ago, but also...

Do every single one of us have a Dyson vacuum and like it? Yes. I think so. And I bought it. I have a Bissell with money. How dare you? A Bissell, I've heard of that. A Bissell? I will say, I've owned a few Dyson clones, and they're just as... It ain't it? No, no, they're just as good. Oh, they're just as good. Not only are they just as good, but a lot of them have articulating ball joints that my Dyson does not have that actually kind of made them a little better. Good. I have those too, but they're breaking down. It kind of feels...

It kind of sounds like the iPhone in 2007 where other phones came out and immediately built better features and other things. Then there's just the iPhone and the other phones. Yeah. There's this dynamic. It feels like Dyson is Apple in this case. Yeah.

And then everyone else has built potentially better products in certain ways, but the Dyson's still the Dyson. Yeah. Like they took an existing product and they did it in a new, interesting way that is like worse in some ways, but the industrial design is so interesting that it's kind of worth it. Also, they're making robots soon. Are they really? They announced like a robot initiative. They're putting a ton of money into it. Because they make motors. Exactly. They make motors. It's kind of like how Tesla's not a car company. Dyson's not a vacuum company. Yeah.

And I'm yeah, I'm really joking there's a section of Twitter that was like yes David. Yes, no I'm really joking yeah Okay, well speaking of Things that are all being put in one place kind of like when you vacuum things up and it goes into one little container natural Apple

Is gonna put all the games in one place on your phone got games on your phone Apple does so currently Apple has Game Center Which is sort of a little thing where you can have little high scores and it plugs into Apple arcade Which is their paid service that allows you to have a bunch of games Effectively for free, but it's part of the subscription obviously and that is both great and horrible for some other reasons and

But regardless, it's kind of separated, right? Like you can download the games on the app store because there's an Apple Arcade section of the app store. But then the whole Apple

Apple system, the Game Center system, is like a really old system. Game Center launched like on the iPod Touch. - I had it on my iPod Touch, yeah. - Yeah, so it's old, it like looks old, it's not newer. For the last few years, Apple has been really pushing this whole like you can run high fidelity Resident Evil games on your iPhone, right?

And so they want to basically highlight Apple Arcade more because they're trying to push services because their devices are getting less and less popular. Like they're selling less iPhones, et cetera. So there is a rumor that at WWDC in a couple of weeks, they're going to launch a new dedicated gaming app called

which not only sort of has everything that Game Center had, but it's sort of like a Xbox-style launcher on your phone where all of your games will be inside. It'll have all the, like, oh, your friends are online. Here's your high scores. Here's all this information. And then also, currently, when you're on the App Store, you just have to go find games on the App Store and then download them. You can download, theoretically, this is based on this leak,

all of the games on the app store through this game app. So it's just sort of a consolidated place for you to do gaming on your iPhone. Hmm.

this is this sort of makes sense because apple's been really like pushing a lot of gaming features on not only iphones but also macs for the last couple of years i could see this also being pushed to mac and then they have an opportunity to compete with like steam in some sort of way right especially if they finally get developers to actually develop for mac they've been really trying to do that for a long time but with their new like port

porting toolkit that allows you to port games to Mac really easily. I think that they're hoping that developers are actually going to start doing that. They only announced that like a year or so ago. So I think at this WWDC, we're going to see how many people have actually started using this toolkit. All six of them. All six of them. Yeah. I think it makes sense to put it all in one. I also think there's an...

being able to see what your friends are playing opens up a new opportunity to potentially find new games by being like, oh, David's playing this. I've never heard of that. I'm hoping there's a way to be like, let me see that game in now the...

Not the app store, but the new game store. The game center. Whatever you want to call it. Do you guys play games? Like any games on your phone? Like take a second because you usually think like, okay, I don't play like COD or like Fortnite on my phone. But do you play like. But you can now, by the way, because Fortnite's back on the app store. Fortnite is back on the app store. As of a few days ago. But do you even play like random mindless Candy Crush type, any other type of game at all? So I literally my entire life have never had games on my phone at all. Yeah.

In the last few months, there are two games that I now play on my phone, which are Pokemon Trading Card Game Pocket, which Andrew abandoned me on. Yeah, because I'm tired of vacuum cleaner Pokemon. Yeah.

Yes, but you know, it's a slot machine. If only it was a Dyson Pokemon. Dysonmon. Dysonmon. Dysonmon. And then I also play Bellatro, which is not gambling. Just letting you know. It's not gambling. No, Bellatro, I kind of want to try. It's really, really good. It won Game of the Year last year. Yeah, it did. It's gambling. It's not gambling. You don't use real money at all. That doesn't mean it's not gambling.

There's something bad about saying you don't use real money. You don't even bet money. You don't use money at all. You don't even bet. You don't bet in blackjack. Yeah, you do. You don't pick an amount and say, I'm betting this much. Yes, you do. That is exactly how you play blackjack. I like to just play until you're like, no, I want to stop. And then when you decide you stop, you put more money down. Every single hand you put more money down. And you say, I am putting this much money. Oh, then never mind. Whatever.

But I do have another thing to say. I do want to say, I read last month in MacHash a stat that really surprised me. About Bellatro? No, about gaming and iPhones. Because, according to MacHash, and they did not cite where they got this data from. Huge disclaimer in this article, they do not say the study that this came from, but...

According to MacHash, 86% of iPhone users do use their iPhones to play games. I would not be surprised. I believe that. That's how Apple makes almost all of their revenue. But what's interesting is that's 10% higher than Android users. Yeah. Yeah. Because Android has a lot of like...

There is some fraction of Android phones that is not even designed to ever play games. Like they're just a budget phone that gets you from point A to point B and that's fine. And there is also a specific section of Android phones that's just designed to play games, which is why it kind of seems a little weird. But there are gaming phones out there and you're like, oh, if I'm a gamer, it's Android.

But game Android is this whole wide world where iPhones and like regular people, you might be shocked how many people play Farmville today. Yeah. Like it's, it's just everywhere. Well, Google just removed like millions of apps from the Play Store. And I think the difference is that Apple always had this sheen of like, we have this process where we test a lot of apps. Like it's a big deal when an app gets pushed to the app store and it ends up having malware in it.

Because Apple is supposed to have this really hardcore process where they approve or don't approve apps. Google has more been like sort of this Wild West kind of thing where you can just like

publish apps pretty easily. Yeah. From experience, when we had panels go to both the Play Store and the App Store, the experience with the Play Store was like, submit. All right, you're in. Instant approval. And the App Store was like, here are these extremely specific things we'd like you to tweak. Wow. So I think that when you buy a game on the App Store, like the idea is that the games are supposed to be higher quality. They're supposed to be less like spammy. You get all those Instagram ads where it's just like some mindless game where you, and yeah.

It's a whole thing. So I think that people assume the games on the iPhone are going to be higher quality, and that's probably why they're more willing to spend money on them. Also, I think the demographic is...

general of people who use iPhones primarily is like they spend more money in general here's a fringe definition of gaming on your phone because when I open this app the gaming mode fires you're gonna say the same thing I've been wanting to bring up and I think it's so funny yeah there's a word will count as gaming word oh I think so yeah okay no with the little game up

optimization booster tab coming up. You're gaming right now, bro. I'm like, kind of, yeah. You are 120 FPS. The additional GPU cores. That's exactly what's happening. The fans just like, green, yellow, green, yellow, green. It's like, yeah, it's optimized. I was looking at my phone to be like, what is that service thing called? But it's so funny when it's like, I want to play Wordle for five minutes. You want to optimize this? I think that counts towards the 80-something percent. Oh, for sure. The New York Times app alone probably accounts for like a... That's a lot of games right there.

yeah crosswords is your own new crossword she's a gamer she's a gamer hardcore gamer all right last thing that we got uh whoa whoa whoa i'm gonna need a better hold on a segue speaking of uh things that are more or less popular than you thought they were pixel 10 or less things that exist things that are speaking of things outside of your originally perceived level of popularity

Pixel phone. All right. Okay. Okay. Well, come on. Proceed. I'll get to you. Let's proceed. Pixel 10. Look, in our world, Pixel is very well known and everyone knows about the Pixel. But outside of our world... Oh, now I get your transition. Outside of our world, the Pixel is like a 5% type phone. Like, not a lot of people use a Pixel. However...

There is one thing you can count on with the Pixel every year, which is that months before it comes out, it will leak in its entirety. Every single thing about it, from the specs to the design to the new features to what it looks, everything will be leaked. I have the 10 right here. Would not be shocked at all. The reason you're talking about the Pixel, calling your plumber. It leaked. Nice.

So, Pixel 10, there was this tweet that kind of went viral. I think the original might have been deleted, but it's been blasted everywhere now. It's deleted. I tried to look at it this morning. Which is somebody was going out for a walk and was walking by what looked like a little commercial shoot, and they looked closely, and it was just a Pixel 10 commercial being shot.

And the reason they knew that is because they zoomed all the way in and looked at it, and it was clearly a new Pixel. No, no. I would argue it's not very clearly a new Pixel because it looks very similar. The way they knew it was that is he got pictures of the whole storyboard that said Google Pixel 10 in the storyboard. What?

I guess, yeah, if you didn't know it was a new Pixel, it looks just like the 9. It looks like the 9. That could have just been a commercial shoot for Pixel 9. He sees this cool ProBlend, a big slider, like an offset camera shoot. Let's take some pictures. He said he was just interested in the camera. Then he zooms in and gets a picture of the storyboard, which is...

straight up storyboarding that ends with ask more of your phone, Google Pixel 10 and like a floating Pixel 10. That is so funny. These Samsung Google marketing partnerships are getting really weird. Yeah, because didn't he... They have to have done this with those Galaxy Supers. No, I actually think he's a photographer. So I think he straight up has... He was on a beach and in his Twitter profile, he has other photos at the beach. I think he just has a really good camera. I do want to say though, I do feel like I was heard because...

Very last episode, I was like, we need more interesting phone leaks. None of this. None of that. We need phones being left in the wild. Walk on the beach, stumble on a production. Like that's...

Thank you, Google, for listening. I will say from the images, I do see a probe lens in there. I'm very curious what they're shooting with the probe lens. Although I feel like I can kind of picture. Yeah, they always do that Apple-like shot of it being swept away from the screen. Yeah, like you go real close to the screen. It's probably going to be one of those classics. You can look at the whole storyboard and literally see the commercials if you want to. The interesting things from the storyboard are one of them shows the like add me feature going on where it's like a...

mother and daughter and it says like take a picture and then we see them walk away and their outline stays and the dad like runs in so we know they're going to talk about that the other thing i was wondering is there's a part that says having a lilac 15 i was wondering if lilac might be a color probably like a light purple type thing 15 inch though what does that mean yeah that was confusing maybe that means 15 seconds

Oh, maybe. A lot of commercials are 15 or 30. Oh, that's the name of the commercial. Having a lilac. 15 second spot. Okay. That would make more sense. I would, you know, it'd be amazing. When he's Gemini, when he got me. If somebody, some really talented YouTuber who is good at cinematography and has the right equipment.

could create this commercial before Google. Holy shit. And put it out. We have the storyboard. Because we have a storyboard. We have the shots. We know what gear they're using. We know they're shooting it outside. And we just use the Pixel 9. And we just use the Pixel 9.

Get branded on the phone. I'd like to put that challenge out there. Because I was going to say it would be very funny. I kind of want to put all these photos into Google Flow and see if it'll just make the commercial. Yeah.

Did you just have that idea right now? That's such a good idea, Marcus. We're watching genius in motion, bro. This is a genius studio video. Because imagine having that and then publishing it right before Google and then Google publishes theirs and you're like, well. This is a studio video. We've got plenty of time to do this. I think there are some quality creators out there who could pull this off.

I'm just throwing it out there. I'm not going to do it, so I'm leaving the idea out there. We're not going to do it? You're not going to do it. We might do it. I'm already throwing this to Eric. All right, we might try it. We might try it. We made the pixel commercial before Google did it. I kind of like to say, okay, maybe we will do this. I thought you were being facetious. No, I think someone actually should do it, and maybe it should be us. I think that's the case. Okay. Now we're talking. I think that's a true fact. Okay, noted. Yeah, because this would go, yeah.

I like this. This would go very viral. Okay. I'm keeping this. You can do it too, but maybe we'll do it. Can I play the pixel 10?

You can be the add me dad. The add me daddy. Yeah, yeah. Cut this, cut this, cut this. So what colors does it come in? Well, Lilac made me think of colors and there was also a leak of what colors are going to be coming out, which is Obsidian, Iris, Blue, Limoncello. Limoncello. So black. Which I do remember. White, blue. Was it like the Pixel 7 had that like yellow color? Wait, what is Limoncello? Limoncello is yellow. Okay. Yeah.

Wow, yellow. So goldish. It's the same color. I think it's like quite yellow. It's like pretty yellow. Yeah.

which is weird okay cool well i was gonna say the only reason this leak was interesting because of the storyboard and i think you proved that that was the interesting part waveform is our brainstorming session i was making youtube videos for probably a decade before i knew what a storyboard was i didn't i never went to film school i never learned what a storyboard was but once you understand how direct this commercial storyboard is probably one-to-one with what kind

the commercial is, you can literally just make the commercial. The storyboard for this podcast episodes is crazy. The script is in. Yeah. Scene one, we're sitting here. Scene five, we're still sitting here.

Interior, podcast studio. The boys are talking. The temperature just rises one degree in every story. Yeah. The tweet did get deleted. If you want to see it, there's a Reddit thread and a 9to5 Google article. If you just type in Pixel 10 leak, you'll find it. Speaking of, like, real quick, just speaking of leaks that did get deleted, unfortunately, someone unboxed the Nintendo Switch 2 just to get that SEO in there. I saw that.

And it was only like a seven second clip, but it got taken down like immediately. That person probably got taken down. It was copyright. Got copyright strikes. Yeah, because I saw the, I saw an article that tried to embed the YouTube video. Like, okay, obviously it's going to be deleted. And I played and it was like, this is a copyright strike. And I was like, yeah. Did Nintendo like. Oh, yeah. Snap. Oh, yeah. Mario just showed up with a pipe. With a hammer. With a pipe. It's a me. It's a me.

Yeah, that's gonna be tough tough for whoever's trying to re-upload that maybe they probably already did re-upload it so I was looking for a real upload like all night last night and I couldn't find it There's probably a team of like a hundred people working on striking those. Yeah, shout out to them. That's true Speaking of switch to really quickly We're not gonna be able to really cover it immediately which kind of sucks because it comes out on Thursday. Never say never

We're going to try. We'll see. Stay subscribed to the general network of channels. If something really important happens, like during the launch, we'll come in and we'll record a little quickie banger on Thursday or something like that. Yeah. If only for the intro. It better be really good. Yeah. Lemoncello. Well, we do have a lot more to talk about after the break, including an interview, and we want to figure out what is happening in the world of browsers right now. So we will do that. But before that, trivia. Trivia.

All right, welcome back to Waveform Trivia.

Guys, I think I cracked the code. I feel like the guy in the Da Vinci Code right now because it's been cracked. I think... Isn't it Tom Hanks? I don't know. Yes, Tom Hanks. I figured out a way to talk about basketball on this podcast without an angry mob showing up. Yo, the Knicks game. I love this. No, no, we're not talking about that. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't ruin this for me. Don't bring it up. David, you're Knicks lore. You got to keep that out of here. Someone else. In Korea...

Some Korean basketball teams have such strong sponsorship affiliations with tech companies that the tech company's name is actually in the team name in between the city and the mascot. Okay. And the mascot. So which of the following...

KBL teams is not real. Andrew, what are you Googling? Oh, no, sorry. This is a baseball thing that I wanted to bring up. Okay, but be very careful. I'm not. I promise you. Make sure he's not looking up. All right. He looked up the Samsung.

A, the soul Samsung Thunders. Wait, we're not answering right now, are we? Yeah, but we hear the question. You know, what if I wanted a little fanfare? God forbid Ellis has a little fun on this podcast. It's not in the storyboard. You're not allowed to go off script. Anyway, A, the soul Samsung Thunders. B, the Changwon LG Saker's. Saker is a kind of falcon.

C. The Ulsan Hyundai Mobus Phoebus. I hate this. Got to explain that one a little bit. Ulsan, city in Korea. Hyundai Mobus is a division of Hyundai. And Phoebus is an epithet for the Greek god Apollo. Wow. Or D. They're all real.

You know how we have, theoretically, we have separation between church and state in America? I feel like in Korea, they really need separation between sport and brand. Yeah. Those brands are massive. They're big brands. Well, I mean, the brands are just so huge. I just want to say, there is an irony to the fact that we are recording this podcast less than 10 miles away from the stadium that homes the New York Red Bulls. Well, but that's not... Right? Right.

No, that is. That is the name of the team. And it is that Red Bull. Indiana, according to Gemini, is very close in size to South Korea. So imagine if you had a brand. But I don't know if that's true. Like if Indiana had a basketball team, let's say the Pacers. We're done here. Okay. I just want to say, since we're talking about scoreboards. Aren't they winning? Yes. RIP Indiana.

R.I.P. the poop MLB scoreboard. Did you see that? R.I.P. the poop. Wow. Wow. Real Pennsylvania s***.

Whenever the Phillies and the Pirates would play, the scoreboard would be the P for Phillies, zero for the score, then zero for the score and P for Pirates. And for like 10 years, the scoreboard would always just say poop at the start of every game. And they changed it this year and they did like a eulogy like in the broadcast for it. That's so funny. It was Philly sports and Pittsburgh sports have some rivalries going on.

And so celebrating this rivalry with the poop scoreboard is like a beloved Pennsylvania tradition. That's so funny. I didn't know their logo was just a P. Why don't you just use two letters? Well, no, those are their logos. That's their team logo. It's not even just the letter of their name. That's funny. All right. We will think about these potential brand team collabs. Answers will be at the end, like usual. We'll be right back. ♪♪♪

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What we choose to challenge, we challenge completely. We are professional grade. Visit GMC.com to learn more. All right, welcome back. So this next segment is a bit of a different one. It's an extra person, but we're all still chatting. I don't know if you guys have picked up on this, but I feel like on social media and the past couple of weeks online, I've seen a lot more chatter about browsers, new browser here, up and coming browser there, AI alongside your browser here.

And it's just got me thinking a lot about what the future of browsers actually is. It's not a question we think about very often, but now it's something we're thinking about. And so who better to have that conversation with than Josh, CEO of TheBrowse.

the browser company. They've made a browser called Arc that a lot of us at the studio have fallen in love with and started using. And then they also rapidly pivoted very recently and started working on a new browser that's powered by AI called Dia. We have thoughts on it. He, of course, is going to have things to say about it. So we figured we'd have that whole conversation here on Waveform today.

It's also just a segment of the conversation that you're about to hear. We're going to have the longer, entire, full-published thing on Monday. So if you want to stay tuned for that, get subscribed. But here are some of the best parts of that conversation with Josh from The Browser Company about browsers and what's going on with them. Hey, Josh, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Not a super long trip, but easy to get here. Yeah, it's awesome. And we love having you.

First of all, let's introduce you, because you're the CEO of The Browser Company. And The Browser Company is a pretty self-explanatory name. But break down what you do, what the company does, and then we can chat about all this stuff. Thank you so much for having me. When we started The Browser Company, people warned me that nobody cares about web browsers. So I didn't think this is why I would be here, but it's awesome to have made it on Waveform, making web browsers. So thank you for having me. Sure.

We make two browsers. We make a browser called Arc, which is awesome to see on both of your screens. You probably noticed it. I appreciate it. And then a new AI browser called Dia, which I'm excited to talk about today. Is that a reference to Dia Beacon, by the way? Naming's hard. So for one of the people, Dia Beacon had a connection to it. Dia Beacon is an art museum in Beacon, New York. Oh. Yeah.

Yeah, I think I remember saying a while ago, ARK is a good name, too. I do remember that. I definitely remember that. It's a good name. Yeah. And also Dia is kind of like a new day, a new dawn. If there's one thing that is hard at startups, naming anything and creating a logo for anything is a religious debate. Totally fair. We got here. So, I mean, as we've talked about on this podcast, there's been like a lot of chatter in the

browser world. You know, obviously we're a more niche group of people really into tech, but it just feels like there's movement with browsers and with people trying new things and new concepts and new ideas of what the internet is and what search is. And it's all very interesting. And so I figured it would be cool to have you talk a little bit about, number one, how we got to Arc, and then number two, how you moved from Arc to Dia being the second big focus and big project. Sure. Yeah, so...

Our original observation that led to the browser company was that it was 2019, 2020. And I was actually working at a VC firm for two years. And I was noticing that all of the kind of hot new startups that were coming in, they were all web apps for the first time. You know, for the 10 years before that, everything I'd been working on were mobile apps. And now these companies are coming in and showing these wild new reinventions of documents. Exactly. Yeah.

And then what struck me was every time they came in, they were in this rectangle that was Chrome, and that thing hadn't changed at all in decades. But the thing that really got me excited about browsers was that observation, and then my wife got a job with a 76-year-old artist in Flagstaff, Arizona.

the least tech-centric workplace you can imagine. And I saw her in her new job. She never left Chrome. Even in the art world, she got sent PDFs from galleries and they were URLs that she opened in Chrome. She spent hours and hours every day in Chrome.

And myself and my co-founder and the early employees were all consumer backgrounds. People that worked at Snapchat and Instagram were really interested in how software can touch people at scale, you know, all the people in our life. And we thought, wait a minute, browsers are one of the most consumer pieces of software imaginable. We don't think about it like that. Like the way you feel about Instagram or your iPhone, right?

No one cares about Chrome or Safari in that way. And so that to us felt like, oh my God, this is this dry utility that hasn't changed in two decades that you use for hours every single day. And everyone's like, yeah, I don't really have an opinion about it. Like where else in tech do you have that?

So that was really the simple idea was, okay, if our browsers are now really these effectively operating systems with our apps and files, and you don't care about it, but you're spending hours every day, what might it look like to build a piece of software that people cared so much about and made them feel good? Which kind of gets back to where I started is people warned they don't care. And I think part of the reason we're here today is now people care so much about Arc that I'm coming on the way to one.

podcast. So be careful what you wish for, I guess. Yeah, so we end up in a place where we all are super heavy tech users and a lot of us here, I think all of us actually still use Arc, really love the browser and the product and the features and a lot of the UI. People can scroll back to previous episodes where we've talked about it

And so it's developed a community where, yes, people do care about this web browser. And now there's this new project you're working on, which is Dia, which is super early. We've all started playing with it, and it's very different. You've already said it's an AI-based web browser. Explain what Dia is, and then we can figure out how it exists in the world of browsers. Yeah, actually, and before getting to Dia, I'm curious. I went back and rewatched the first time David brought up Arc on this podcast. Nice. Which...

By the way, it's embarrassing because I had no idea how to explain it. I was like, it removes my tabs when I don't use them. ARK got introduced to this whole company because David has a tab hoarding problem. And it had a feature to do that. And that was the feature that sold David off the bat. And that was only one of the features. It was.

But then it slowly grew to multiple people in the office and it's become like a favorite. But I remember being so excited to hear that David brought it up on this podcast. And I remember watching the video and like David, I knew he knew about it and you really did stumble. It's weird. And it's interesting, like hearing you talk about the way that people want to have like an emotional connection with their browser, because again, even something as simple as having the tabs on the side of the browser,

that's something that is very native to Arc that I think a lot of people are... And we'll get into this later, I think. But are frustrated about with DX. It's back to the Chrome experience. But yeah, it's just...

There have been many things about Arc that have just like got their hooks into us here at the studio. And so the reason I bring it up, though, is because on that podcast, you were, I would say, open minded, but very skeptical. And I'm curious for you what shifted because it relates to the Dia story that we'll get to in a second, I'm sure. I think it's one of those things where I didn't care too much about the browser either. I was using Chrome and then I was switching to Safari on the laptop because of the

the battery life was better and I was just kind of agnostic and was willing to try something. So I tried something and I think it was a couple of features that I did like, especially the,

For whatever reason the side tabs. It's a widescreen machine like it just made too much sense and I just got hooked so Arc like quickly became my home and then the syncing across devices. I just like started using arc a lot. Yep. Yeah, awesome Okay, so to answer your question about D and then I'm sure we can come back to that. Yeah, so they're My personal life and professional life. I keep very separate, you know my personal life It's people I went to college with high school with they're not in tech. They work in manufacturing or art and

Feel like in the past six months nine months all of them have started talking to these AI chat tools for everything in their life You know my friend who works in manufacturing that was talking about I was hanging out with him a couple weekends ago and he was saying there's not a Professional project or personal chore that he does not turn to AI in some way to get help with and the last time I

There have been two times in my life that has happened where I woke up one day and all of my personal friends changed the way they interface with their computers. When I was in middle school and everyone got an AIM and MySpace and LiveJournal and Facebook, and then in college, starting with a BlackBerry and then the iPhone, when we started doing things like Instagram and then stories on Snapchat. This is that third time in my life. And I feel like because we're so in the tech world talking about AI, and I actually think I did a poor job of leading us about a year ago because I felt uncomfortable about this.

In our industry, AI is like a political topic. It's like politics where you have these two extreme parties and voices that dominate the conversation because they have the time to care about it. You have these AGI maximalists that are like, get ready for UBI. And then you have people that actually has a reaction to this. And I was part of that at the beginning are like, it's slop. It's garbage. It's a dystopian. It's going to write our emails to our loved ones, like how dumb it is. Mm-hmm.

And I think when you get out of the building, which we've tried to do for the past year and a half, and talk to people that are not in tech, it's somewhere in the middle, but I would actually say slightly closer to the AGI side of it is rewiring how people interface with their computers.

There was this University of Nebraska student I interviewed, and she was talking about, I turned to it for meal planning and for help with outfits and friend advice in school. And so the foundational kind of observation of DIA was that what is a browser? It is technically a user agent. Your browser is designed to represent you to web pages and web servers and bring stuff back on your behalf.

And so it seems so clear outside of the tech world and ARK and all that stuff aside that people wanted to interface with the internet, not just with webpages anymore, but with AI models and probably in the future agents like deep research. And shouldn't your interface to the internet be able to both handle webpages and chat and models and agents? Mm-hmm.

And so that was the observation that made us so excited to work on Dia. We can obviously talk about Arc as well and the challenges we had there, but that really was the inciting observation that led us to say, wait a minute, if we're really building a browser, a user agent for the next five, 10 years, which we have to think about, the world is so clearly going there, whether or not the AGI versus AI slop debate gets talked about the most. Yeah.

I think the big question that opens up, though, is that the browser company, a lot of people felt very passionate about the browser company because you guys put so much effort into making the Thursday updates like an event. And the onboarding, how it was so colorful. And there's just a feeling that everyone really got close to and associated with. And so I think the feeling that a lot of the community is like, well, if you're going to do this fine, but why not just integrate that into Arc? What's the point of starting a whole new browser

instead of just putting those AI features into Arc itself. Yeah, and I want to touch on the Thursday updates and the feelings because it's really important. You all were actually influential here. What people miss was the first year of Arc.

The first year of Arc did not have a lot of the stuff that people love. And the way that we got to that place was by testing it early with people who are like, nah, I don't like it. Here's what I don't like about it. Man, this is missing the soul. Like, where is that feeling? Where are the craft details? Where is the browser company spirit? And then us integrating it. You better believe that's in the version of DIA when we launch. We just like testing early and often.

now the question of why not integrate into arc boy did we try like a year of my life trying to figure out how we could take where we thought the world was going and put it in arc there are two problems i wish there were three because rule three but there were two the first is

there's this novelty tax that you get when you try a new product. Not you guys, but the average person has a job and they have stuff going on in their life. And someone's like, hey, you should try this new thing, Arc. They have like 30 seconds that they're willing to give to it. And as David talked about stumbling over his original pitch, they're like, okay, so the tabs are over here and there are these things called spaces. And then there are pin tabs, but the pin tabs are different than bookmarks. And these ways you got to try split screen. And it's just like, people just couldn't handle

how much there was to learn that was new.

And so we just felt if the world is going to as profoundly shift as we think it is because of these AI models, how are we going to teach you how to interface with AI models and agents, whatever the heck comes, while also teaching you about all of those novel concepts? It's a lot. It just seemed, I mean, before AI, that was our biggest problem. That's why we came to the office to try to get you on board, you know, two years ago. It's like you had someone you worked with saying it was amazing and you work in tech trying new products. You're like, no, I'm good.

Yeah. So that was problem number one. Problem number two is it touches me and our team that people love Arc so much. It also had performance issues. I think it had way too many features. We built it in a very prototype experimental way. And what we learned over time is the importance of speed and the importance of reliability and just your browser feeling snappy. And there were architectural decisions we made in Arc and then layered and layered and layered over time that even if we thought we could solve the novelty problems, we

it would have been really challenging to hit our bar for speed and performance and other things that were important to us. I don't quite know how to verbalize this. And if you all think about this with your video creations, but it also felt like ARK was not finished, not perfect, but it had the right components. It was what it was meant to be. It didn't feel like it was missing things. And if you go back to our YouTube comments, maybe a year ago or so,

Every time we would push a new feature, people would say, I don't want a new feature. I want like Android support and I don't want a new feature. I want this to be faster. And so I feel like we don't also don't talk enough in the software world about like when a product is not done, but in the state it is meant to be. And it is what it is. And you can do with it what you want. And to me,

Again, people that used Arc, I'm sure you didn't have that many complaints with the tab model or the craft details. It sort of felt like the product was what it was meant to be and there was something to just like come to terms with, you know? Does that make sense? - Yeah, no, I think that was one of my questions was essentially is Arc a finished product because it is so different and it is so built and it has these new fundamentals and now it kind of does this new thing.

And obviously there's optimizations and speed improvements and little things here and there. But essentially, as an idea, is it done? Yes. I feel like it kind of is. At least that was my take, which is why, you know, I think people who use ARK are kind of just asking for the little things now instead of just like massive new ideas. But yeah, go ahead. And the analogy that we use internally is or one of them is, you know, Frank Ocean's Channel Orange. There was a mixtape that put him on the scene before that.

And that only appealed to a certain type of audience. It was a great mixtape, but Channel Orange, but it was done. It was a finished work of art. It was a complete thought. And Channel Orange was a, how do we make something? I'm not sure that's how we thought about it, but like, you know what I mean? It's finished. Yeah, it's very, it's funny because in the video world where we make a video, we kind of, we can edit the video forever. Like I can edit one video for a year and it could never be done. But at a certain point, I have to get to 97% and go, okay.

on to the next one. And so the video gets published and it's done and I can never finish it. In the software world, people have this expectation of updates forever. Like you buy a new phone and you're like, I want to get software updates for as long as possible. If I download and install a browser, I want new features and new updates for forever.

So the expectation is different. But yeah, I feel like it's maybe a little bit more of a statement of the idea being so different that it can finish and be sort of published. And that's different in a software world. And honestly, I think it's, I'm surprised we don't talk about software more as a cultural product, like a video or a piece of art in that way. And that I looked at my iPhone screen, for example, and many of the apps that I still love and I've used for decades are

Instapaper, iA Writer, even Apple Notes, they're pretty much the same product. And I'm happy with it. Like one of the things that I will reflect on in a decade is, you know, we started putting out these videos very early on when other tech companies didn't do that. And really not with a plan, just to sort of be ourselves and be open and invite the community in and just, I don't know, as an experiment.

And a consequence, I think, of our kind of experimental prototype-driven culture where every week there is new stuff. And our experiment of being like, let's just be open about what we're doing meant that we set this expectation that like every week there's going to be some new hotness and new features and that we thrived on that for so long. Think about Safari. Is Safari a finished product? How long is it? It updates once a year. No one complains about that. How, you know, if you, whoever you over there use Chrome, how often are you like, man, this new Chrome feature is dope?

So I don't know what to do with that. Again, it's a byproduct of the way I have run this company. But I think there's also this interesting bar where no one's complaining that Safari hasn't gotten like wild new features in a long time. So I have done a horrible job in many ways, I think, communicating about what the heck is going on at the browser company. So I will own that. But Arc's not going anywhere. Arc is not going anywhere. Arc is not going anywhere. We're just focused on

In terms of where most of our energy is. And then, yeah, let's do chromium upgrades. Let's do security patches. Let's do bug fixes. Let's do the same things that these other browsers do. Okay. How much of your company would you say that you have devoted to making sure that ARK is stable? There are probably three engineers at any given time working on one of those topics.

But just to be really clear, we are not building new features as of now for Arc. But that is very different than this product is being sunsetted or going anywhere or anything like that. When you see your two browsers together,

Do you expect people to move from Arc to Dia or do you kind of expect the Arc world to stay in Arc and Dia is a new subset of people coming to it? Yeah, I think we're in a little bit uncharted territory for a software company of our stage in that, you know, we called it the browser company for a reason. We could have changed the name to Arc many times. And so we've always been excited about having a portfolio of products and of browsers that

Having said that, I do think a lot of the things people love about Ark will come to Dia in some form. And so the honest answer is like, I don't know. Because one of the things that's been perplexing about Ark is we tried to get to the root of what was powerful about Ark for people. And it turned out there were like seven different archetypes that used like, there was the archetype that

use the browser in zero Chrome like David is here and kind of flew around with keyboard shortcuts. And you had like the space organizer with pin tabs and folders renamed everything. And so in terms of are people going to go from Arc to Dia, we're not going to force anyone to do anything. I really like I'm I'm an Apple fanboy. I'm inspired by that. You got the like the MacBook Pro or and then the MacBook Air and the iPad. And it's different things for different people. But I suspect that

when we bring things over like a vertical sidebar, when we take a novel take on tab management, I think a lot of people, not to mention the browser company kind of design, flair, and craft, I suspect a lot of Arc people will prefer Dia, but I get excited about having both for the foreseeable future. So what's your plan to move those Chrome users over then, right? Because if the whole idea is it's too complicated for most people...

It's equally complicated to just get someone to move on to something else at all. Like there's a lot of friction there. You're a small company. There's not a lot of brand recognition for my mom. You know, what's like, how, how are you planning on like finding those people who were never gonna see the browser company at all? Cuz the whole point, right? Is that you is that arc is sort of a limited user base cuz it's the power users. Yep. If Dia is supposed to be, let's take all of Chrome's market share.

How do you access those people at all? Yeah, well, that is the big question. That has always been the question for this company from day one. So I don't want to purport to have like the definite answer. But the theory of Dia is, so if you go back to the idea of a browser as a user agent, and it's a user agent for web pages, and now it's going to be a user agent for models and chat. I think one of the things we concluded with

is that Chrome actually and Safari do great jobs with web pages. Obviously, there are things around tab management and along the sides, but I think for most people, they're fine with the way their user agent, their browser opens tabs.

When you talk to those people I referenced, the college friend and my wife, about what is frustrating about these AI chat tools, we really hear two things. The first is it's a pain in the butt to get that context out of whatever app or file you're working in into the chat tool so it has the awareness of what you're working on to do the damn thing. The second thing that frustrates them is

It doesn't know anything about them. Even with memory, it knows the chats that you've had, but it doesn't really know what is your taste, what is your writing style, what are the things that you love, what are the things that you don't like.

The browser, the traditional browser and traditional web pages solve both of those issues. Because as we started with, what are your tabs in 2025? They're apps and they're files. So you don't have to copy and paste and futz around to get stuff out into chat. Let's just bring these AI models right to where you are in the apps and files that you use every day. And then the second bet is that

You know how when you use Instagram Reels or TikTok, for better or worse, it feels like every swipe, every action teaches the algorithm to better understand you? Yeah. The way that it should feel in the future is that in an AI browser, like, do you have every tab that you open?

It feels like this model, it's not Sam Altman's GPT-4.0, it's like GPT-David. And it's getting better and better and trained for you every action that you take so that when you ask a question about something else, it not only has the context of that tab that you don't have to copy and paste into a tool, it also remembers the last seven shopping sessions that you did or the last 17 things that you wrote.

Like the way that I can't quite, this is the first external marketing thing I've done. So I don't actually have my language down yet, but there's something I've been thinking about that with arc, the sort of hero image was the cluttered tab bar. Whenever we showed like seven windows with 50 tabs open, people are like, I hate that. I want whatever this is that fixes that. And that's so interesting because in the old world, that was a problem. That was clutter. That was chaos in the world of AI models. That is like person. That's like oil. It is like,

it is the context that is missing to make these models actually understand you. And so the bet that you have to believe, which I know maybe not all of you do, is that truly AI is going to change how we interface with our computers and the things that you turn to it for. If you don't believe that, we're screwed.

If you believe that future is going to be a reality, then I think the convenience of having it right there in your tools and files combined with the compounding personalization that you get from that awareness is something that at least from talking to people outside the building, that's what is on their mind right now. They're not complaining about, you know...

man, when I go to Google and I click this link, this sucks. Give me a browser. That's not what's going on in the world anymore. Yeah. Do you have like a timeline of when Dia will feel like this product that you are sort of pitching? Because I think right now, I think a lot of the backlash from ARK being, I don't know about Sunset, but maintained and Dia coming out is that

Part of the reason that people love Arc is because you built in the open, right? And now you're building Dia in the open. I think a lot of those Arc users love the browser company, so they were frustrated that Arc was being sunset. Not being sunset. Not being sunset. Not being sunset. Being maintained. Journalism. Sorry, being maintained. Is that the version of Dia that people have access to right now is very bare bones and doesn't necessarily meet the more grand or...

ideas that you have for how you're going to interact with this AI browser.

So do you have like a timeline of when people are going to be able to play with something that has those capabilities? Yeah, it obviously depends on what bits you're talking about, but I'll try to answer. By the way, yeah, some other point over beers, I'd love to talk about the pros and cons of building in public and being transparent in public on YouTube. But yeah, actually, when my second son was born, I like left the hospital in Paris, actually, to go get food for my wife. And someone's like, hey, Ari,

I love it. I was like, whoa, this is like a new, this is not what I thought was gonna. But in any event, to answer your question super directly, I'd say if you're someone that tried Arc or has never tried Arc and you tried Dia to get to the bar where you're like, oh, this feels better than Chrome, six weeks, you are on an old version of it. I feel good about that. In terms of the both, I'd say grander of what I'm talking about, which again was always there with Arc. So we're gonna be like internet computer operating system for their web.

The grander and the, I'd say, ARC members feeling like it has enough of the basic, you know, the things that they, the vertical sidebar. I'd say somewhere between Labor Day and Thanksgiving. But again, on the, hey, you just browse like you normally do and this, like, model self-personalizes to you.

That's going to be a many, many year thing. But what we did with Arc was just like, let's be honest about where we're going and build it in public and around people. Like, you know, the other day, one of the things we're going to release soon in the kind of when we give it to Arc members very soon is there were these college students that were hacking our personalization features to make these mini apps, like almost like AI apps. So they created the syntax where they would be like, when I do backslash gadgets, I'm

I want you to do these 17 things. And so then they'd go, they'd hit a new tab and do backslash gadgets and then whatever they wanted to do. And they kind of like made their own little apps. And we're like, well, and multiple did for different use cases. And this goes back to the like native to the technology native to the phone. We're like,

Well, that's pretty wild. And so what we've been sprinting to do, you know, that we weren't going to do five weeks ago is like, man, we got to formalize this and see if we make it even easier what other people do. And so that's all to say part of the reason that, you know, the grandeur, it won't be there forever.

you know, right away is the stuff's hard and it takes time. But part of the reason is the reason ARK is so beloved is because we were like, we have no idea what we're doing. Let's put some stuff out there, see what people do react to it. And so we also want to have time to say, maybe the big idea here is actually AI native apps aren't going to be these agents. They're going to be these like

created and shared little mini apps that... It's an idea. It's an idea. It's definitely an idea. It's definitely an idea. So that's it for now with Josh from The Browser Company. Really interesting to chat with him. Thanks again, Josh, for the time. And again, if you want to listen to the full, what did we chat for, like an hour? An hour-long conversation with Josh, stay tuned because we're going to publish that whole thing on Monday. We go in-depth on some other things and talk more about DIA and the future of what Google could do to them or not do to them and why. It's fascinating. It's got us thinking about a lot of new things.

Either way, back to your pod. Well, we got a little bit more after the break. But of course, before we get into that, one more trivia question. Trivia, dude. This question comes to us from listener Rehan. He says, what was the first iPhone to have a gyroscope? And what was the demo that Apple used to introduce the tech?

Oh. Two points. Two points. On the board. I remember the demo. The beer. Yeah. Okay. Do you remember the beer ad? I just got a reel about that the other day. That's like, what a tough day. And then his roommate comes in and also cracks one. Sick. Okay. Answers at the end, like usual. We'll be right back.

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All right, welcome back. We're going to wrap this up with our favorite end of the month monthly segment, Crown and Clown, where we will find something to agree on as the crown of the month, the best thing to happen this month, and find something to agree on that is the clown of the month, the worst thing to happen this month in the tech world. I have not brought anything to the table, so I'm open to being swayed. Let's hear what you guys have. I can go first. I don't think either of mine will be voted for.

- Okay. - But, well one, 'cause you guys were all hyped up about a crown that's gonna happen in a minute, but whatever. So my clown is there was an international energy agency report that found data centers made up 1.5% of global energy use in 2024. - Right. - Around the same amount of energy that the entire country of Saudi Arabia uses that we're using just for data centers, which feels poopy.

So Google's greenhouse gas emissions increased 48% since 2019. And considering they have a goal of net emissions at zero by 2030, that feels like a much tougher goal to hit now. In fact, last year, they mentioned as we further integrate AI into our products, reducing emissions may be challenging due to the increased energy demands from the greater intensity of AI compute. Mm-hmm.

Don't like that. Yeah, I kind of want to look back at all the companies who promised less emissions or less carbon footprint versus the ones that are doing more AI processing. So all of them? And if they, well, a lot of them are offsetting it, like OpenAI is doing a lot of the stuff that like Apple would be doing if they made their own model. So I'm curious about that. But anyway, this is your clown. This is my clown. It's just like...

These data centers are going to make the crypto mining inefficiencies look like child's play. And all of that so Gemini can tell us a gorilla is smaller than a human. Sounds useful. If you're interested in learning more, we had a whole episode with Climate Town talking about all of these zero emission stuff. Yeah, for sure. You should link that. Also, it's not just electricity too. It's like gargantuan amounts of fresh water because you can't use salt water. Cooling.

- That's a good one, Andrew. - Yeah, I mean, this is gonna make it sound like I hate all of AI, but I really hate this part of AI specifically. - My crown is Apple having the judge lay down that sick injunction

And basically like... That fat beat. Yeah. Tim Cook chose poorly. It was fire. So third-party developers being able to now point people outside of the App Store to sign up for things and download things, and Apple not being able to have such a tight hold on the App Store monopoly, their ruling, not mine. Yeah.

is, I think, very good for the ecosystem at large. And I think it's a really big move that we will see the repercussions of down the line. So I think that is a crown for me this month. I agree. I think that's a great crown. Yeah. What is... You guys have...

- Yeah, my crown, this is big guys. In fact, this might be the biggest piece of tech news of the decade. - Crown of the decade. - Crown of the century. iPhone, forget about it. - Yeah, I mean. - Android, who cares? Guys, Final Cut Pro has adjustment layers now. - That's true.

This is... I'm in for that one. This is unreal. I mean... Unreal Engine. It says a lot about how excited we are that this program has a 15-year-old's feature, you know? And we're like, thank you, God. You know what's funny? I've had... Final Cut's so weird. I love and hate Final Cut. Yeah.

Final Cut has some things that have just been missing or poor about it for so long. And if you ask anyone in industry, they have lots of things that they hate about it. Adjustment layer is missing this whole time. We had to find like plugins and hacks around it if we wanted to do the same sort of thing. That's annoying. But at the same time,

there are reasons, I mean, I still use it. There are reasons why it's kind of amazing. I was just doing a clip in a video that's not up yet, but I have like my hands waving around in front of a graphic I have on screen. I did a magnetic mask and I just selected my hand and it was like, okay, I got your fingers. And it tracked my hands perfectly for the entire clip. And literally as I was sitting watching it track, I was like,

oh my god this is the greatest masking tool yeah like humanity has ever seen it's like accelerated by you know by apple silicon it's so good so i actively live with massive upsides and massive downsides of final cut oh yeah all the time yeah it's like

great program probably 50 of it is like completely broken and also i just want to say what was so hilarious is that the they added like four new features in this update and the other three are like so unbelievably stupid and useless like they added like the new quantic logic reverbs into final cut because yeah you know video editors are like

I just really want really nice algorithmic reverb. They added image playground integration. You know what pro users have been begging for? The best generative AI service on the planet. Over my face, video users are going to see the heinous image I made of myself with image playground. I don't even remember what the third one was.

It is fourth one or whatever adjustment layers image playground magnetic mask enhancements What's better about it's faster It's so good like that's the thing it's like adjustment clips finally magnetic masks. Oh my god greatest thing ever and

Image playground like there's a team working on this is insane also I will just throw it out there while we're talking about Final Cut Pro every time I've Color graded for the past month Final Cut and I say this for the end of my edits now Final Cut just crashes every 30 to 60 seconds and

So I'll just be editing, crash, reopen. Edit for 30 more seconds, crash, reopen. 30 seconds? 30 seconds. I'll get three, four, five clips in, crashes, reopens. How do you finish your edit? Patience. I save my color grading for the end of the process now because I know it's going to drive me insane. When I'm sitting at my desk, I'll just be like doing whatever work and I'll just hear, and he's usually standing and he always puts two hands on it.

Head down and I'll look over to you. I'll be like your color grading. My monitors are empty. You're like what happened? Oh, you know what happened? Premiere Pro who? I just thought you were stretching. I didn't realize. Every time I'm sighing and my monitors are empty, it's because Final Cut just bailed. Oh my God. Yeah. Does anyone else have a crown? I have a crown that's not going to be any of it. But did you guys see some of the thing? Netflix to dumb. Is that how you pronounce it? You got to do it correctly. Come on. There it is. Terrible name.

It's not even out yet, but they showed what they're announcing. And I think this is a really hype lineup of One Piece live action season two, Stranger Things season five, Squid Game season three, Happy Gilmore 2, and a new Knives Out movie. Happy Gilmore 2. New Knives Out movie? Happy Gilmore 2. Wait, what is it called?

They already have knives out - it's called glass onion yeah, no, I just saw in the like thing that's funny I

Sorry. I can figure it out. Wow, no love for Two Happy Two Gilmore. I really thought I hooked on that one. Okay. Squid Game season three. So there's a season two that I missed, huh? Yes. Wait, there was already a season two? Yes. Was it good? No. I didn't watch all of it. I didn't watch the first one. The first one's very good. Do I have to watch the first one to understand the second one? Probably. All right. I don't know. Hold on. What's the Knives Out movie called? It is called... Come on, baby. Yeah.

Wake up, Deadman, and Knives Out Mystery. I'm so excited. I'm so excited.

They can literally just repeat this format forever and I will keep watching them. Is it? It's so funny and good. Have you not watched any of them? No, I've seen them both and I'm the only one that thinks they're very mid. Everyone is obsessed with these movies. Knives Out 1 was amazing. I really liked it. Was it amazing or was it just the only murder mystery of the past like five years? That doesn't mean it can't be amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Glass Onion was still good but less good than Knives Out. I think the first one was just like this whole new thing and like world that we're introduced into and it was

and it was more of a you haven't seen it i'm guessing right no no no you should watch more predictable okay okay so that's your crown yeah but i can't imagine how we're beating uh yeah i'm gonna save mine for next month because i feel like you guys are so hyped about it wow yeah interesting okay any other crowns or clowns you want to nominate before choosing i mean i got well yeah i mean we got a omega clown yeah what's that all right

23andMe. You may remember in March, we talked about how 23andMe was going bankrupt and they were going to have to sell all of their genetic data. And we made jokes about how it was definitely going to be sold to a pharmaceutical company. I'll play the clip right now. Adam, play the clip. The April clown could be catastrophic. But here we are in March. Nothing's happened yet. It's like, you know what? Mark has like, you know what?

It hasn't happened yet. Next one. Exactly. April Clown. United Health now owns 23andMe. Marques basically...

pushed this clown further down the line just so he could nominate the Charger EV with the sound. That's true. And here we are. Anyway, and so that has now happened. It has been sold to... What was their name again? Regeneron. Regeneron. For $256 million. Which is similar to Pegatron in name only. But...

Yeah, so now my genetic data is owned by a pharmaceutical company. I feel like that has to be the time. No, you did 23andMe. I did it when I was optimistic about technology. I did Ancestry. Ancestry.com, so I'm not screwed yet. It'll happen, don't worry. But it will. Capitalism is not if, it's when. It's inevitable. Capitalism comes for us all. Wow. I feel like Marcus has to vote for that just because he pushed his vote down the line already. I just think it's really funny because we predicted it.

we were one month off, but yeah, we're counting. That's okay. I think your exact words were, well, we played the clip already. Yeah. April will be catastrophic. Yeah. Okay. Could be catastrophic. I think we can, are we aligning on that as the clown? At least for the clown. I have one more clown, but I don't think it really shapes up to a company just stabbing. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Um, so, uh, famous, uh,

You know, so of all the companies that are sort of being like, we're not a this company. We're actually an AI company. We're a cool company. We just happen to do this. Klarna has been jumping on that bandwagon. Klarna is like, we're not a bank. We're not a finance company. I don't even know what FinTech is. We're an AI company. What? And we just happen to give people money. And what way are they AI? Uh.

Well, they've recently cut their workforce by a couple thousand. Oh, they just fired people. That's how they're in it. And then the big clown story for them is on their most recent earnings call, instead of the CEO appearing, it was an AI avatar. Oh, yeah. Of the CEO. I saw that.

They thought that was a good idea. Yeah. They're an AI company, so, you know. To do the same thing. This is a company that you can finance your Taco Bell order. Like, I don't think good ideas are flowing. But they're still profitable somehow, which is ludicrous. Anyway, Klarna, you're a joke.

Sorry, but like it's just it's just helping younger people go into debt earlier in their life It's just like I you know, look, I'm sure you guys are really great No, but it's hard to take a company that Helps people finance burritos and then does corny stuff like this hard to take you seriously. Good luck with the IPO Anyway Yeah, I've got a feeling I think we have to give it to 23 and me just just committing it to

Atrocity. Frankly, an atrocity. So if your genetic data is now owned by Regeneron, my goal is this. I'm going to make a suggestion to Crown and Clown. We should do Clowns first because ending on the Clown

sucks way more like to end the episode i'm like so yeah so that's an atrocity so we're saying trivia the best thing is the adjustment layer thing i think we can say the crown is final cut pro adding a 15 year old there's been an adjustment layer plug-in for like years there's also been like really good roto masking plug-ins for years but apple's is simply better and it also is an adjustment layer

Well, being built in, it potentially leaves room for it to be improved with metal and have more optimization, et cetera. The same way I was using masking plugins, I used one called M-Roto AI from Motion VFX, and it was fine. It did a pretty decent job, but it being built in leaves a way higher ceiling. So it's technically the same feature, but it just works better on the built-in side. So I just think it's going to get better over time. Better than that fire injunction by the judge? Yeah.

Cook chose poorly. I think that's a bar and it's going to live forever. All right. But adjustment layers. Oh, man.

The ceiling is so high for adjustment layers. As long as it can stop crashing on you, then I would agree with you. That would be huge. Final cut is not the crown, but this one feature is. What if the adjustment layer update is what's making it crash on you? Oh, no, it's been crashing for years. It's been crashing for a while. Oh, yeah. Wow. I would be willing to change my crown if, and only Adam Sandler, if you're listening. You want to call the movie Too Happy Too Gilmore? Yeah. I'd be game. That would be...

That'd be worth it. But other than that, yeah, I think it's got to be Final Cut and... 23andMe? The great genetic mishap of 2025. That sounds so bad. There you have it. What better way to kick us into trivia questions? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, and also, by the time you watch this next week, the Switch 2 will have just come out.

Sorry, next time you watch the next episode. No, no, if you watch this episode next week, the Nintendo Switch 2 will have been out. That's also true. Ignore me. I just keep thinking about Nintendo Switch. Welcome back to the Ellis Knows Ball tech podcast. Let's see, today's question is about Korean basketball teams with tech companies in their name. I've got three in front of me. Are they...

real or are they fake more specifically which one is fake yep with D being all of the above this is the most backwards way which one is real

That one. Yeah. Which one is real? Which one? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Which one is fake? No, it's which one is fake. I have it in front of me. I'm right. I wrote the question. Oh, okay. I said which one is not real. Got it. Oh. Oh. One of these is fake. Okay. Yeah. Which one is not real? Which one is not real? Which one is fake? Yeah. And D is all of them are real. Yes. Correct. D is this is a truth bomb. It's fake that all of them are real. Is that what it would be?

Hit it, Adam. Okay. The Seoul Samsung Thunders. B, the Changwon LG Sakers. C, the Ulsan Hyundai Mobus Phoebus. That's it. Hyundai, Ulsan Hyundai Mobus Phoebus. Or D, they are all real KBL teams.

Took a stab. I knew you guys were going to say D. And so I will lose a point or gain a point here. Marques, would you like to go first? I think the Seoul Samsung Thunders is made up. No, that is a real Korean basketball team. Is it C? We all put D. And you are all wrong. Correct. Those are all real Korean basketball teams. That is bad. Those are bad names.

Thank you, KAESportsTalk at YouTube.com for teaching me how to pronounce all of these Korean basketball team and city names. Quick update on the score. Marquez with 25. Andrew with 14. David in the lead with 29. All right, this question comes to us again from listener Rehan. So what was the first iPhone to have a gyroscope? And what was the demo that introduced the tech?

One point each. Ooh, Marquez does not know. He's stalling. Andrew's staring up at the sky, praying for an answer. Demo. Demo demo. David's trying to understand how to say the word demo. Demolition. What was the stupid demo they did back then? God, I don't remember the demo. Can't think of a demo. And flip them and read.

what do we got if it's really the beer i'm gonna be so sad uh i said i iphone 3gs no and what was the demo i did the beer app the beer app yeah no i just short oh sorry i said the iphone 3gs iphone 3gs as well was it 3g and i thought it was also like pouring a liquid maybe like water or something i bet i don't remember is it the gun one

- There's no way it was Tim Cook on stage. - I just heard iPhone 4. - 4. - Correct. - Oh wow. - And what was the demo? - Watch out everyone, I'm coming. - He didn't write an answer. - I don't know what the, I was like, all I can think of is like some sort of like maps or something like that. - I'm surprised the 3DS didn't have a map. - But it's too early for maps. - The demo was Jenga.

Didn't the iPod... I want to see what this looks like. Didn't the iPod Touch have a gyroscope, the first one? Yes. iPhone 4 gyroscope. I thought the iPod Touch came out alongside the 3G. Yes. It was either right after or right before. It must have been before the 4 or around the 4. Maybe, but the question was, what was the first iPhone to have a gyroscope? Actually, it was probably around the 4.

Yeah, you guys said the 3GS, which does have an accelerometer, but not a multi-axis gyroscope. You can see where we might have gotten that wrong, because accelerometers and gyroscopes are very easy to mess up. But you got it wrong. Similar axis. All right, well...

Congrats, Andrew, on the point. I'm coming. He's the comeback train all aboard. But yeah, thank you guys for watching and for listening and, of course, for subscribing as we know you are. And, of course, we'll catch you guys with our next regular scheduled programming very soon. Yeah. Watch those dishes. Peace. I think they've finished them by now, right? Oh, I've got to put them all back in the sink. Waveform is produced by Adam Molina and Ellis Ruffin. We're partnered with Vox Media Podcast Network and are in charge of our music, which is created by Vain Still. Bingo! Let's go!

Wait, they added adjustment layers in Final Cut? Yeah. Officially? Uh-huh.