Why the Vision Pro Rules with Hugo Barra
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Yeah, what is up, people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the way from podcast. We're a host market and I and this episode is a bit of a guest interviews interview.

Pretty exciting. We are able to get hugo o. Bara to join us in the skin, the studio in the flesh. If you haven't heard the name, or if you don't know if you've heard the name, you might remember you go from work at google or show me. Or most recently, this is why we had him on.

He had this huge, super in depth blog post about vision pro and like the state of V, R and a, and obviously has experienced from oculus and a bunch of of history and those companies. But there are lot of things in those posts that i'd never read before, like unique thoughts about V R N A R, which in a world where feels like everyone said every everything about this stuff that was really interesting, the sea. So I wanted to digging on with his hot tags.

Yes, you don't know the name, you know ten products that he's work done. No, like he's been in this space for so long and has a great ton of great insights and is really, really knowledgeable, just everything tech yeah. So it's really fun to have an x like a true expert in the industry common on and Operate on some of these takes.

So I think we should just jump right into IT. Let's roll IT. welcome. You will go back away .

from thank you guys.

Thank you for me really you we've talked a little bit in the past about this. But ah we've seen you on stage presenting with with google for android stuff. We've seen the show me stuff and you've had a long history with V R. And we've talked a lot about apple vision pro on this um on this podcast. But I feel like a lot of your thoughts are things that we hadn't even considered and a lot of takes from your blog post are angles about the history in the future of VR in general, that we somehow haven't gotten to you. And I would love to talk about them with .

to be here ready to do IT. Okay.

amazing. Well, I feel like the first thing I want to jump into is like vision pro as IT exists today, like it's a pretty good product. You've earned one.

You've used one. We've had our review and our review came out. What is your like thirty second summary you give to people who ask like, uh, if you vision pro, right, what do what do you think of IT?

To me the cool thing about is that IT feels like a product that comes straight out of science fiction. And I think they're you talk about this previously. IT is, I think, easily the the most sophisticated a piece of consumer technology sort certainly that i've touched uh, in likely of almost anything in the world today.

So putting on a vision pro feels like your visiting the future, right? IT has that taste of sidhu is that is just a beautiful way to create curiosity, to create optimism around tech and all that stuff. So size IT is a IT .

is close to magic for a lot of people. I think you have never, especially people who have never tried other headsets. So that's something with a lot reviews that I like to look at this context.

If you reviewing this headset, have you tried other headsets? And if so, how many and how far back have you tried the headsets? And we are also brief ly talking about like the first oculus when I came out ah how long ago that thing came out and how basic IT was. But if your views had had since then, this might not have the same magic appeal. But IT is fun to give people who have never tried to have set a look in the vision pro.

And just to look on your face, can I throw just a completely random story and into the mix when talking about the history of VR? So a bit of you are enthusiastic for my entire adult life. And um for me I started off when I was a fresh winning college.

My first internship was I was a ka engineer. World disney imagination ing. This was in the nineties, uh, in a project that was part of uh, disney quest, like the the indoor theme park thing that they had going on until a few years ago.

This project was called the aladin magic carpet. IT was a virtual reality attraction. And this was the crazy thing ever, because of the equipment in the technology that was available to time. So you'd like sort of sit on a chair was kind of like just holding your, you put on a seat belt, and then you put on this headset, which was this massive C. R.

T display IT pretre IT out like a foot a half of your face pull the photo show IT um and IT was so heavy like we talk about six hundred grams that said he was in the kilograms that IT needed still ables hanging off the ceiling to hold them in place so your head in a wouldn't fall. And each I IT was B. G.

A resolution. So IT was actually not bad. Each I was powered by a separate silicon graphics on its workstation.

And IT was incredible. They actually had what you might call the first motion controller that anyone ever came up with. Now, this launched twenty five years ago.

So to me, the history of you are certainly in entertainment kind, kind of starts back then. So boy, have we come a long way. I could probably pulled video from that from my family archive because i've gone to that ride so many times.

really. I, you remember what I was. I was IT mind blowing. I feel like I would be my blow to know.

Yeah, I like a six year old. I was an insane. Yeah, I was good.

Say, adam, how did you exist? I'm older than I. Look.

that is really funny. Yeah I mean, so we even if you only go back to what once did you use the first quest? I mean, the first yeah, I so that's a decade. Yeah.

I was yeah. I mean, I was using IT as a freshman in college in two and thirteen.

So yeah so now now we're looking at like, okay, we've seen this art of improvement. clearly. We've figured out what parts of of the our heads set that we want to improve the most, to deliver the best experience to people, lots of resolution, lots of high quality sensors and tracking.

Uh, and we've arrived in twenty twenty four where we have things like quest 3， quest pro. Those are the most common ones. I'm in the reference and now apple vision pro. I think one of the most interesting thing is that while you may or may not consider vision pro the best V R headset, you can definitely argue that it's the most important V R headset, especially just because of the way people treat what apple does. Yeah, can you expand a little bit on why it's so important not just for apple but for the entire .

industry of the whole? Yeah, totally. So first of all, I I think that the vision pro is one of two seminal events for for the VR industry. The other one is probably the founding of oculus and obvious ly, the subsequent acquisition that gave them so much investment firepower.

But I I really I put vision pro right up there for a very simple reason, which is like if apple cares, then everybody cares, right? Like if the brand that has earned the respect and reputation of consumers all around the world, actually here's about this thing, enough to put a product in the world with their perspective, then everybody cares. You know, palmer lucky started oculus used to say that like VR has to be something that everybody wants before.

IT can become something that everybody can buy or can afford, which is, by the way, I in that long, I say that I wrote I don't even talk about Price because I think it's not really the point of the product at this stage. So so to me, this is the fact that apple is you know has a perspective and they are applying the apple attention to detail in a way that no one else Frankly has a patience to do because IT takes years to arrive at all of those little things that faith done um and and I think that's that's really important. There is one thing about the vision pro, which I think is probably the most important thing for a product perspective, which is the how they introduced gaze and pitch to me.

That is the in VR equivalent of the introduction of multi touch uh which is without any adda bt right capacity. Multi touches is the defining characteristic of the current generation of smart phones. And IT was introduced in the first iphone. Find the product more anything else.

If you go back and look at those videos of the first iphone when he pinches the zoo in the picture in the whole country wo like that moment, that intuitive moment, that magical understanding everyone had that click. That's interesting. So gays.

you think is one of them I think. Ah it's the combination yeah it's looking .

at a thing the back and away .

exactly the fact that you're giving yourself have to fig back by .

touching other thing that's true. You actually touching your woman. Okay, interesting. Yeah I think and also this is the heads that that has a screen on the outside of IT. It's got the eyes going through. It's got the the transparency where you can see through and people can see your eyes. Do you think that's also a critical part of maybe what makes V R more appealing to people that low on tone pool?

I think that's much lower in the totton poll. First of all, I don't know why, but no one to talk about the fact that, that came straight out of ready player one like where the headsets are all I think there they're all optical passthrough in a ready player one or yeah OK and you know and it's almost like eyesight. When the person is like supermarket content, you can see their eyes.

But then it's totally i've gone back and I watch that's totally where he comes from so that you know, I think that's like it's like apple design perspective that play here. It's just like doing something really different and unique that tries to bring sort of human and nature out into this crazy, potentially isolated new type of technology. I hope IT survives because I think it's fascinating.

Let's forget about the implementation as it's there today. I think it's going to get a lot Better if they decide to keeping vesty on IT. I hope IT stays, but I worry that IT may not because the quest to reducing weight yeah, I was not at ten, is so much more point that something that .

would only happen in the non proverb like in europe ion, when they keep IT in the pro model and still try to get rid weight other ways.

There's one circumstance where I think they might, which is if they if the pro model uses such premium, lightweight gh materials, carbon eeta, very expensive, but light weight materials that IT IT allows the bill of weight to sort of still have that lenticular display, which I don't know how much that thing is, but it's probably like in the thirty gram, twenty to thirty gram territory may be including the display controller.

I think you self have a glass on the outside.

And for glass, super glass, whatever I think is which so so what I think IT comes down to like this trade off space of weight versus features which I think is so ridiculous ly important no .

i'm kinds curious about .

your thoughts on like apple does not like to go as A V R headset. They like to call the spatial computing headset, which the first time I ever use this at our first briefing I W B D C I sort of clicks for me with that meant because they're been talking about that over and over over again like it's special computing. The era of special computing is here.

And for the most part, unless you immerse yourself in a full environment, you are mostly in just in AR environment. The and so I know that now with the quest three and with the quest project, most of the quest three meet has been pushing into like OK. We actually also have to enable these like AR mixtures environments. But in your in your opinion, do you think that the mixed reality special computing leg.

Paradise is the thing that's going to like push forward because I feel like meta sort of gave up on that a little bit for quite a while and realized people mostly use us for gaming yeah and that actually, I think is a reason why the this still is like a dev cate because there's not there's nothing to do in IT yet, you know and like they want you to use IT for work. But like do you think that that's that's A A paradise that's gona move forward? Do you think that apple is gonna lize, that maybe the hyper productivity stuff is not yet, but they're still merit a special competing in the pivot?

yeah. So I think um short answer is I think speciaal computing is the right beat took place with mixed reality, augmented reality, whatever we want to call IT as sort of this super important defining element of IT. I think IT is IT hate you just us so much more utility.

You know, the oasis isn't the thing in my opinion. Uh, the way the way oculus ended up focusing on gaining beyond sort of its founding philosophy, IT was a company that was built by gamers. Um was the fact that we tried other things and they didn't work, you know so gaming was like, okay, like product market fit exists here. Let's keep investing on tech that would enable something like makes reality. But let's go all in on gaming first.

Yeah, I think that's what I keep thinking about those, especially the quest headsets, is they didn't really necessarily have an obvious thing and gaming kind of surfaced as the thing that people like to do the most. And that's that's the thing that people started gravitating towards. And IT works really well with controllers.

And I see I mean, this has happened with the apple products before where first scene comes out and we just kind wait and see what developers come up with. And oh, that seems like, oh, fitness is catching on. So the watch is now fitness watch is IT possible that a new thing will come up as the thing that people wanted do in vision pro? Or does that have to be gaming again? Because there's no controllers with the vision pro? yeah.

So IT feels like gaming is going to be a weakness of the vision pro. There's no really immersive VR or A R gaming experiences that I have found to be convincing. yes.

yeah. So special computing feels like to see other possible big thing. But yes, I know gaming.

Gaming is on the cause. I think gaining is first of all, IT is a IT is a piece of anything you want to do because like if it's a productivity device, you're still going to want to have fun with IT.

Um I do think that that uh, sort of casual gaming mix, reality game is is a lot of fertile enough territory that apple can to go all in the that stuff for a while with without um sort of giving in to the mercy gaming stuff, which as you said, I think would require some sort of controller support and so on. I think that's going to be more of a hobby est thing. And and I hope that apple opens up enough sort of hooks such that listing VR hobby can still find a way to play you know games with immersive, your games with vision pro. But I think they're going to go on all in on casual games, things that you can certainly, just with your hands, going to, you know, social and share play, gaining as well with multiple personality in one place that to me he was like a big enough place that is worth apple bet.

Yeah.

that's fair. It's funny because like for years they're always showing A R kit demos at these launches of the new ipad to end. Nothing has happened, right? But it's like every single year they're old. A D nd game is on a table.

And i'll look, everyone with their ipad can see IT and at the time obviously was like you're not going na go meet up with your friends in real life with your ipad and do this the whole time you're hanging out. But this makes more sense with like the share play you're in different environments are in different rooms. That was part of the videos.

Yeah too yeah there's no yeah that shared experience feels like the obvious next dimension, if you will, of what would make something like this really appealing to people and would want them to use more often. But yeah that's there's a lot of things are like one up data way that I think could be really cool about this this type heads set。 Um okay, I want to I want to go through some of your ah you're taxing your blog post that I would consider hot takes and I don't know if you would degree obviously have a lot of thoughts and you've much more experience than I do but some of these to me red as like really fascinating that mayor may not turn out to be true. So going to go through .

something people mayor may not .

disagree with yeah well.

a lot of emails what right?

Here's the first one I sell that I read um apple intentionally made the display blurry to hide the screen door effect. Now just to clarify what the screen door effect is because if these displays in the vision pro are incredible, and the screen door or effect is most often noticed in displays that are lacking resolutions, so break IT down, why? Why do you think apple would do something like this? And why would IT happen on to display .

with such a high resolution? So first of all, hugely controversial point. There is a very famous blogger in the V R space called cargo tag who's a display export. I've based a lot of my sort of commentary here on some of his sort of objective findings.

I've since learned that there's a lot of people sort disagree with the approach that he's taken in some of these things, but I still think that his perspective is really useful. So the the chAllenge with the r is that the pixel are too close to your face. So even when they are so close, you know three thousand P P I, three thousand plus P P I, uh, they're still not close enough that you can see pixel.

There's a whole thing around how you measure resolution in in VR. You use angular resolution instead of pixel per inches or pixel despite for a degree is the pixel per degree. Yeah and you know even as high resolution as the vision prois, it's not approaching what you would consider retina display for a VR device. They're like maybe sixty to seventy percent of the way there. So what that means is pixel are still actually designed more you can see two pixel apart um which means that things like screen door effect and alias in which are some of these sort distortions are of visual art effects that make IT make things less less smooth to look at are still mildly present.

So my hot take here is that apple maybe tune their display to add a tiny bit of blurr and lose a bit of perceived resolution, just so that these little visual artifacts disappeared and they would get a softer look on the display, which to me is kind of like a matter of taste, right? Which is always is something that we respect apple for. So I support that decision if that's how they went, because IT does make for something that just feels a bit more pleasant and less harsh then these physical things.

I think it's a good word. Here's the parallel I was going to draw when i'm shooting a video about a smartphone, i'm pointing in A K camera and a lens at a screen. And these screens are incredibly high resolution.

And you can actually see when I pull focus on the lens, when I hit the exact focus plan of the lengths because there's this harsh banded risp like display and it's not like you're seeing individual pixel. No, but IT is harsh. And I found that if I turn IT just another fraction of a degree and it's slightly out of focus, it's a little smoother and easier to look at, especially with macros.

And so I was thinking about that when reading that. I was like, okay, I don't know if apple is necessarily make them your display blurrier or maybe just tuning the lenses to be slightly beyond the plane of focus of the display, yer, whatever they're doing. But as a taste decision, I feel like I also support IT because overall, you don't want I fatigue.

And as much as I want to see all the pixel on the pixel snob I can like, I like IT to be a little more pleasing to look at yeah, I get IT. I felt I get IT. yeah.

So that is I agree with the take. I like that we're going to take a quick break for ads. We will be right back to talk about how maybe apple vision pro is the best thing to happen to the quest see soon.

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Some features languages will be coming over the next year. Zero dollar offer may not available on future iphones next up any time, future maybe discontinue at any time subject to changes additional fees terms interstate tions apply C A T T doc com flash iphone for details. Well, we come, everyone, over this, but i'll sort of phrase IT in the way that you did, which is apple vision proves the best thing that ever happened to the VR, including four meta, who has made their own headsets.

So this is probably like that, the highest confidence of take that I have having been in sort of the middle of the thing when I used to work at oculus IT matter, you know.

Side note is I used to joke, or send my joke, I would say and like company all hands and stuff that like the best thing that could happen to us was if apple decided enter you VR and we know they have been rumors about this for a long time because I really do think that um as I said, when apple cares, everybody cares was gonna be a thing that would help us to minister like massively floats all boats, massively grows the pie. And IT was interesting to even see mark mark ebbs video recently where he can talks about the elephant in the room. Obviously, he cares about what's happening, so might not talk about IT, which I given huge crops for and it's just so interesting.

And putting aside whether you would you agree or disagree with things, he said, I mostly agree. But putting that aside for a second is so interesting to see how meta, you know, in the voice of marking this case, has now shifted from evAngelizing to competing, right? So before I was like, hey, are call like you gotta try this, you could please please try IT like, go try IT.

Here's some cool things that you can do with IT to like no longer consumers don't need to be convinced that the r school they now know that the r school ah so now it's like why do we have a Better product? And I love that because now it's all focus is on the teams that build the product and how to make IT Better and chasing your competitor, whether they're in front of you or in your rear view mirror. It's kind of like android versus IOS all over a good that second paris on.

I think a lot of people would make an obviously, it's apple. So IT makes sense that is the iphone of IT. But the the competitor to the iphone often needs to come up with a reason why you would choose IT over the iphone, especially in this country.

This is a very popular thing you have to do. Yeah and so sometimes it's Price. Sometimes it's a couple features that this one doesn't have. Sometimes it's some customization that this one doesn't have. And there are lot of really good reasons why people would buy a quest three over a vision row despite being at seven of the Price, whatever IT is. So I I think it's a comparison yeah .

on that note where you where you say like now that we have competitors legitimized as everything, the interesting thing that i've noticed about this that you actually said in your blog was that this is one of the first apple products that didn't really meet to build IT.

And they will come mindset for developers, which I also find weird, right? Because apple announced IT eight months before I came out something like that and they were like, now we've got these devices ads available. You can build these apps and IT seems like you would have developers rushing to make apple vision previsions of abstraction.

When he launched, there were like six hundred that we're native. Everything else was ipad, which cool. You can natively port over stuff. But why do you think developers have not garnered so much interest in making native vision pro apps? Yeah that seems worth that to do now so that when the second generations out you already have is something you can build .

on what you take on that yeah so I totally you with everything and I I think that um it's likely that apple just really underestimated the sort of the apple magic influence over developers uh by thinking that more things would show up of those six hundred kay, apple probably had to even lower its bar for approval. The apps work because .

there's a lot of them clothes .

and .

yeah yeah put on wall like yeah collection of widget make sense, but the widget is like maybe individual apps or are just not as interesting. So I think they did underestimate their or over rescue their power over developers and didn't actively do what they possibly could to get some these key apps in the store. You know, like really, even if they had to pay developers or give them all sorts of incentives, I think they probably should have done that.

They the inside, they were apple.

We're apple, right? So and I mission, my favorite example of where apple missed a beautiful opportunity. Have you guys tried piano vision on quest three? I think .

this is is a pio .

players. Do you think .

of that up? One of those things that like, wow, this would be so cool.

really good. And like, there's like a .

piano vision like clone in the the vision for star, which is like really not they're good. It's called piano frames I think um and but piano vision is like a legitimate tool for learning how to play piani d learn piano as a child and I forgot IT all and I sort of went back to learning IT with with that APP and it's just like like I can't think of a Better example of an augmented reality APP but that one so why isn't IT available vision pro right?

You know it's so weird is that I maybe it's because the Prices expensive and developers don't know, but my sort of take on that was that I just felt like developers didn't know what to do yet. And I think that's that's why you're seeing so much kind of shovel wear apps is because people don't understand yet what the paradise of spatial computing is, is just something in virtual reality.

We at oculus, we had to trade developers a lot like we set down with them. We helped make the Better. We put a lot of budget to work towards, you know, funding these developments. And I think maybe apple could have done a bit more of that. Maybe they're still time to do.

Yeah they when we talk to apple about this, they I mean, maybe they are not talking to us about IT, but they talk so much about the development of the hardware, how amazing the hardware is, how long they spent in venting new technologies and building new things, materials inside this, to make IT physically possible. We had to invent this to make IT fit in this, so we can do them like, that's all amazing. But people have to use IT.

Now, what we're going to want to actually do in the headset that are kind of like lacking at the moment, like there is a couple of big apps, netflix, youtube, things that just aren't here that I think if they were that I can more easily answer the question. What does that do? Because that would have a couple more things to say that oh, you already know about netflix, you know what this does and it's just right there just right on the door step of like being easy to explain.

Um here's another one of your hot takes of retail a the battery this this thing right here, the battery hanging off the vision pro um I I thought that was you know a compromise for weight and heat. But you're saying it's actually an intentional decision and that they will keep IT this way for the foreseeable future to tell the other things and get you used to the idea of totherhouse to the division pro. Yeah, please explain. And this .

is a super controversial one. I do really, really think that it's one of the most important things that apple did. It's like number two in my list of thank you, apple things.

The first one is gays in pension. Introducing the world to that. It's just a gift to humanity. This one is not quite a gift to humanity, but IT sets the right tone for for VR.

Taking the battery off is the first step in the journey of reducing the by put pulling components, but also pulling each generation out of the headset. Just to give you an idea, I don't know how much this thing is I visit. There's a lot of a lot there besides the battery, but the the quest three battery is sixty nine grams, right, which is like but fifteen percent maybe of its weight.

Six yes, about yes, I grand .

something like that right? And but when you start to take off seven grams for the battery and you you know take out a whole pcba and now of a sun, you can take out the fan because you don't have heat on that thing anymore, like you start to find the path to that magical three hundred grams, which I think is where things really turn.

And people stopped saying that this headset is too heavy to wear but also IT starts making there face you know hot. And Alice, I hear you totally on that. Totally, totally hear you on that. Um so the only way to do that is to set expectation with v one that there's a tether brick of this thing all the way to inventing a you know a belt clip and sell IT in your store despite the ridicule that that may seem, I think that's all worth IT.

So okay, the foreseeable future of vision provin is battery is always tethered but also giving getting people used to that idea also allows them to, in the future, possibly take more pieces of vision pro out of the headset and tell them them as well so that you get slighter and lighter face computer. Yeah.

it's a good idea. And not only moving things to this brick, but at some point, you may not need the brink anymore because you can just plug IT into your macbook or your ipad or even your iphone. Sure.

definitely. Well, I guess the magic right now is that you just look at your mac and IT appears and that super cool. But if you if you get, let's say, because we we expect there to be a non pro of this headset at some point. An apple vision pro is thirty five hundred, an apple vision air or whatever teen is somewhere down the road, which has a certain different features set that enables IT to be cheaper. Yeah maybe IT doesn't do the wireless stuff as well, but you can play G A right in to your mac and they still have the other and it's everyone uses tether.

I I think getting that head set to fifty hundred dollars without getting rid of the compute is gonna a really tall chAllenge.

What do you think is okay if you were to start now shopping things out of vision pro to get to the magical fifty hundred dollars ads, that what what do you get rid of, right of the bed? I feel like you have to get rid of the eye. I think with .

today's tech yeah I think yeah I sight I don't know how much that way, but IT is bit of dead weight, you might argue. I think the the their depth camera, not the lighter, but the other camera, true death, the true depth camera, would I think they only use for the personal relman. You might be another .

thing you can get .

rid of shop that all fall together yeah I think no. They can probably use four or five tracking cameras instead of six. I have to think about your mouth because that's almost exclusive. I have the facing the camera facing down that um anyway but I think so then the next thing I would move out is the m to chip in the whole thing yeah the last thing to go would probably be the r one ship and everything around IT because of because that's when you really already there.

you need to be there because it's a sensor, right? I wanted to drill down. Is that a little bit further into the plugging paradigm because apple specifically IT, seems like they want this to feel like it's I don't need your mack bk anymore.

You don't need. You know, it's it's it's a whole thing. IT has an m two chip in IT. It's just as powerful as a macro. So it's it's a weird paradigm is there they're basically selling IT as a whole separate computer, but they're also selling IT as A A headset, which we don't traditionally see as a computer.

Yeah, I know that oculus, you know they have a standalone ship inside of IT too, but you're not doing you're not like running a browser on that generally, you know. But but apple has so far in there they've got yeah, I message in there and all of these different apps. Do you see a point time where they I know that you said that they are gna like remove IT and switch to plug. Could they pot feasibly do that? Anyone have like A A cheaper one that doesn't have its own computer in is powered by a separate computer.

You could sell this as an accessory, right? This is essentially an ipad pro in a box. No, probably with some additional processing capability, maybe not even because if you want to make a plugged into to the ipad ote, then I have to move that into the ipad anyway. This is like, could literally sell the computer as computer and right, that turns your headset into a fully enclosed a uh spac computer that gives you the equivalent of an ipad pro in terms of computer capabilities in power and on is the worth. And I think that's a very viable computer .

to have .

very close to a ipad pro that's very usable and suitable for a lot of different tasks. Forget the Price, right? But as far as job to do, I think we're very close where maybe two soft updates away plus filling the the APP store gap from being there, which is very exciting.

Yeah, could we get rid of the speakers and have consumers be happy? But you have to use airports, you have to use something else. But just feel like in ninety nine percent of other electronic times, we're using devices. We're using not the speakers on the device and but IT seems like V R headsets. I don't know a lot of people that feel the way that where specifically headphones and they're .

yeah I I think you probably don't need to because I don't think IT necessarily buys you that much in terms of weight reduction in cost reduction. And I think he does take away from that magical put IT on in your good to go kind of thing. So that probably would rank a lot lower .

in my query list. Yeah I like very existential questions .

that are like, okay. So I remember when I was reporting on oculus stuff way back in the day and they, I think, acquired um what can require IT. IT was some VR three sixty storytelling company and they basically made a couple of movies that you could watch in V, R.

And IT was like immersive because that would be all around you. How to do all this stuff. Where do you see the like do things like that actually pull users and and make IT a paradise that people wanted use?

Because I always thought when I was a problem and I was like, it's a cool little experience. But just like this launched with the alec keys experience and i'm sure to build launch. Yeah and it's amazing, right? It's amazing. But it's sort of like a demo of what the head is good for in general. yeah. Do you think that invest apple investing in more of those kind of experiences is something to actually get people to buy the headsets is when with the oculus thing, IT was a core couple of movies, but I didn't feel like sam was gonna buy inoculum to watch these movies because not that .

many that we're going to be produced yeah. And then you know how many times we're going to want .

to watch the same movie? Again, almost an infinite appeal. IT.

Ever watch the ellice key's video like twelve times now really is great. No, no. But yeah, that's that's IT reminds me of the three face we had the whole three times the red hyden came out. Look at amazing video red yo and IT would look pretty cool I think would be .

done and be like, okay, what else to tech demo that's IT yeah over.

It's a party trick yeah I think that's something mark zuker talked a lot about, which is they have invested so much in not just games but also content library and just partnerships in general for things for people to do inquest yeah, and that's a big part of my quest is pretty.

But to me, that still feels like a way for trying to get people to stick around but not necessarily the reason people show up you know I mean.

yeah so boy do I have a lot to see yeah so first of all and this is a bit of A T take. Um I don't think this is not exactly what you ask, but it's background OK. I don't think that video watching in VR yeah is a thing that retains we've tested extensively and it's really cool yeah but over time you're like I know i'm just onna watch on the TV or in my phone or on my ipad.

So on recent individual, which is recordings ul lar, whether it's three to or not, I don't think is um a major appeal. It's I mean you don't create a device as sophisticated this just for people to watch T V in IT, right? So then you're going into the missive yeah video format.

which is what you're talking. Yes, which is incredible, but it's also like a really so there's .

three things that I that I can think of, all of which my guess is that apple will experiment with. The first one is storytelling and its TV shows because the thing with the magic with TV shows is that if you're into IT, there's like seasons and seasons and seasons that you can keep making kind of expLoring the same characters and so on so forth. Uh, I think, uh, dramatic story telling, any immerse format is gonna difficult to do.

And you talk about about IT this in one of the way for podcasts early on about sort of how storytelling in three six icy was so much harder and agree with all of that um so you ask your experiment but I just don't see IT being that good good from like a cinema and artistic perspective. The the two things that I am am excited about. One is music, which I think proven by the illicit keys sort timide to the concert. Uh, and I think there's a lot to do there. And the other one is sports and especially live sports, I need that.

I know that that's that's the number one thing I cannot wait to actually get to use in this thing.

And so many people have told me i'm wrong on this and you time will tell. But I could not be more convinced that the the biggest thing that the r will change, or I should say the big thing that the r will change first is not gaming. It's not productivity, its spectator sports.

And I was personally involved in shooting that oculus go adam levine on a hill like court side of the NBA you know ad from a long time ago. Of course, we couldn't deliver on the product experience. That's a different thing.

But IT really, really, really transforms the experience of watching sports. And it's so complicated technically and artistically technically, because you have to figure a way to do like eight k live broadcast, which is super complicated, know, you guys know a lot more about this than I do. And artistically, because each sport is different, like where you put the camera, where you put the big screen, you know, when you change jangles, you know, how do you do replace and so on and so forth. But i'm so convinced. Just look at how much fun people spend to go away.

That's what it's exactly I saying, yeah, they are infinite ways that i've thought of that I would like to participate in live sports in the vision pro, the one that came in to mind because there is that like demo real where I think is there's a basketball game and there be an docker one where you were like above the net. That's not even a real seat you can buy that's Better than any seat you can buy, but you're above the net.

You can see the play developing in front of you. And it's like, you know that there are people with disposable income spending three thousand dollars on a headset that would love to spend an extra hundred books to watch that game live from the best seat house. Like that's a real obvious opportunity.

The other one that comes mine as basketball where if you're at, I don't know, court side seat, which is very expensive, you don't actually get the best view. But IT is super cool because you get to see ah the size of the players and the coaches right in front you and the referens past you and all the fun stuff. And I wish I don't know how technically difficult that actually is to execute on, but I wish that there was a little rig right next to the scorer table that would let me sit there and look around as if I was sitting in that seat. But it's not a real thing yet, and I just keep waiting for someone to pull that off.

Well, apple bought that company. Yeah, there was a company called next VR twenty twenty uh these guys are absolute genius. They've been doing this for you know a decade. So they know the ins and outs of shooting in one eighty three um including the dual A K crazy format that y've just launched.

But also they're really invest into thinking about the broadcast pipeline because they you want to get to live sports and and like it's not even that hard to do something simple that already works. Even the center court sea, no basketball B A center court, uh uh, court side seat with a big as projected T, V just on top. Yeah, shows the regular broadcast exactly.

That's good enough for a lot of people. You don't have to go much further and then you go all the way to like the formula one craziness. Yes, talked about that in a pod as well.

I mean, that just is an a different world that requires a lot more production. Um so it's I think it's coming. I am convinced that when apple was negotiating its M L S rights and they ve got like the full package they got at all, they were already thinking about this.

And people have been seeing court citing the mice games for a long time. Yes, there's a film coming. Question is, how long until we can watch an L, S. match? Live universities .

that will make this purchase worthy for me?

Just that I think apple could sell millions of headsets. They can nail life sports.

I guess the benefit of that is that their sports happening all the time. So it's not like you have to wait for apple to develop a new a new movie with the story telling and the shooting. And the production is just like repetitive.

I remember him back when the asie vive was out and IT was pretty new. Valve released. I don't know. You're private like dota to the video game. Yeah okay so I play dot for her like twelve years .

and they you like you like dota invalid because .

they work so tightly with HTC early on because steam VR and all that stuff they've always been into VR. They released like a special dota 3d mode that you can expect IT in， where you could look at the map from above, and canna told the map for map around, while the live pro match was happening amazing. And you could, like zone in on the players, move around stuff.

And I thought I was super cool, but I didn't feel like a Better way to watch the live game. Like IT again, sort of felt like that, like tech deo party trick thing for me, where I liked watching one game in IT. And then after that I was like, I would rather watch this the regular way.

And this is not a real wealth, real for its an east very different from like people jumping in front of you. But I wonder like IT just makes me wonder whether or not that has that much of people but then you guys say that IT does. So I guess I should just believe you um yeah I don't know. I I guess that if you could have a Better watching experience every single week, people would probably buy these, even if they could just only use IT to watch the live sport once a week.

I think the vision pro, in any high quality of your heads can can be a single purpose device for a lot of different people. Life sports is one thing, you know teleportation is another thing, you know external monitor is another thing. I just didn't get good enough those people alive.

We're going to take one more quick break, but we'll come back a lot more on how apples been marketing in packaging vision problem.

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Hey, it's from the koto with the light. We spend a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why do they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series diving into some of the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

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get apple kind like they kind of twisted their marketing for the vision proto, be more focused around media consumption more recently, right? Because they kind of realize that the workspace thing wasn't really built out yet and the abstract coming up. So a lot of their verbiage t about that in your um in your blog post. Can you expand on that a little bit?

Yeah I call the their marketing like sixty forty sixty initially, at least sixty percent productivity, forty percent video. And I think that may have flipped and look at some of the latest assets that they put out and so on. Um and and you're totally right, I think that apple pull the product marketing rabbit out of their hole out of their had um knowing how little they had for this launch.

They were already committed to IT right developers didn't come. So what do you do? So you go all in on something that is magical and that demos really well, which is video watching like watching uh sixty F P S avatar and three sixty fps I think, right.

which is between forty eight and sixty .

and ninety six ninety six difference.

It's it's literally not the same framework throughout the movie.

which is frame. I wonder what it's like if it's also like that. I must be right.

I dynamic IT IT was a headache to watch in the theater. I'll tell you that, yeah.

yeah, it's funny. I think I could sense something, but my eye was nowhere in there. As well trained as you is like.

that's a frame rate. yeah. When they would switch to like running scenes, IT was moving fast. He would switch to sixty fps, and I felt like a video game cut.

Sine, I think he .

was twenty eight, okay, which is what the hobby was filmed in for the entire movie, and the entire movie look like.

Video, so they put fry rate. Video, apple TV plus know, and did all the things that they could to make this as appealing as I could be A I I just don't think it's going na sustain the product very.

very long. Yeah here's another a context question with apple vision pro, what is the what is the ideal wait to to actually feel like you have successful ly made something that people can wear for a long time because this is a notoriously heavy headset, is aluminum, has some plastic and glass. It's around six underground, right? We've seen lighter headsets. A lot of people reference to quest ory. The quest three happens to be around about five hundred drums.

But if you could keep going down, is there like a magical weight that you hit, where you just feel like you can wait forever, like sunglasses? And if so, is that anywhere I think about like what tech is actually possible with what we have now? Is that actually possible with the tech? We have to make a light enough headset that's still good, but also light.

I think IT is if you can get if you can work really hard on your sensors, if you can move the computer and the battery off the headset, OK work for a couple of generations. I think you can you can break the three hundred and three hundred and fifty gram kind of territory, which ah can I show my toy I would .

love yeah please.

Which fun enough is where oculus started. This is a an original oculus decay one from twenty sixteen, I believe. And this this is just a display.

It's nothing else, right? And it's three hundred eighty grams. Put this thing on and it's a little bit change.

The form is not exactly super comfortable and so on, but you feel okay. Like this is a like quality ative difference from wearing um any of the headsets that exist today. So I think three hundred and fifty grams is kind of where IT .

starts to look really interesting. That's like about a smart phone weight. I ool iphone fifteen pro max, weight two sixty, yeah.

I think two twenty, yeah. okay. So like, so one and a half smart phones.

yes. Now this, this is even later. What is the matrix? What are you wearing?

And and this is what some people called the ready player, one headset. This is called the big screen beyond, to be clear, no affiliation with company, anything I just think, as this is one hundred and twenty seven grams well, and which is lighter than most ski goggles or many key goggles.

Half a iphone 4 per max。 Yeah.

that's of the most bones. Yeah so but that's just a screen and that's IT. No.

this is just a screen with a custom facial interface that's made for my face. And it's not like of twenty eight that was chosen for me. It's actually custom printed for my face.

And this is just a screen with it's a microalgae display like in the vision pro with a pancake lands like in the vision pro. It's a tethered headset. To be clear. IT has no sensors, no past through.

Um so obviously a very different sub classes of the E R product, but what I like about this product and affected IT exists and that he kind of shows us what this desirable and statius like. Where do we think that this thing could ultimately go when all of the technologies that need to be invented are finally there? Yeah um and this would be a beautiful future.

Yeah I made a video kind of talking about this collision course that we're on and IT may not be a collision, but on one side, there's V R headsets with a ton of logy in them that way five hundred grams. And we're trying to make them smaller and smaller and later every year. But on the other side is smart glasses, and it's something you can wear today and look Normal, but you can't fit much check in them.

So they're ying to fit more and more and more tech cameras, sensors compute while keeping them the size of smart glasses. And they're kind of just doing this. They're going add each other.

This feels right about in the middle. I don't know if you have a thought about which one might end up winning people over faster or which one could win. I tend to feel like smart glasses are more approach to more people. There are also less tax, more affordable.

But I think there is there is theoretical form factor right in the middle, which is the the skii goggles optical pass through theoretical product. It's it's actually what a lot of the ready player one to head sets look like they know because you can see the person's eyes and their optical pastor, their transparent displays uh that to me would be one of the most revolutionary form factors. It's very unclear um if you know one can build the White ef O V you transparent display that would be sort of all the good things that we need.

I was a pn. I think he was. That on purpose is very unclear.

That was good. You they just great plan. They just come up. So so that to me, you and that would be like a you know three hundred two hundred to three hundred gram device. Ideally, that's a beautiful thing. I think the optical pass through you know glasses form factor where there's an actual display that's more than just a notification screen. I worry that product may .

never exist because .

it's just phenomenally difficult to build in one actual display in into such a small form, in fact, or where everything is so close to your eye. And soon as of the so there's prototypes of that out there. I've seen some of them. Uh, will that product exist you knowing the next ten to fifteen years? I am not sure if IT well.

yeah, that feels like one of those size y things that is hard to imagine with what we know about technology today. Yeah, even though .

seems really cool as quickly as the a headset and glasses, things like approaching each other, IT still feels like their on their own track. Because especially with what meta is doing with its AI assistance that you can have in your metal bands. Now it's more about contextual awareness of your everyday life and not necessarily manipulating your everyday life.

Where is this is more focus on manipulating your everyday life. But obviously, it's a giant headset. And i'm sure that there is some sort of like in between that because they want to get those smaller metaverse to get those more powerful.

But like you said, the technology required just weight wise. You can't have a pair of ray bands that have an m two chip inside. Ah you know so I have a question around this sort of like developers build IT and they will come mindset because I didn't happen in the vision pro, but IT especially is not happening now.

I feel because when there was hyper around the vision pro, when I first came out, we saw a lot of developers that were making vision pro apps as soon as they got their vision pro because they needed to understand the paradigm of how a special computing worked Better. But now IT feels like it's been out for a while. People aren't talking about IT every week anymore.

And there was already way less developed hypothenuse le, as seems there would be. Now, how does apple get people more excited about this device? Do you think that people are still gonna working on like stuff for IT? Or is he going to take until the generation too to reignite developers to actually think maybe this is worth building for?

Yeah, I think the organic creating organic excitement is going to be very tough because as you said, right, a lot of that way of excitement of curiosity, interest in the product from consumers is starting to go away. So I believe apple will just have to use money.

They'll have to fund some of these startups, you know, some of these game developer studios know and others um plus you know do ambitious partnerships which require like executive level conversations and so on to really bring some of these new things to life. No, it's not a, it's not an unknown playable king develop relations. It's just one that I don't think apple uses that often because they have such an an incredible market power. But I think IT, you know, it's a rounding era to zero.

So have to open the and .

and then they're to get final cut pro in treating thank you. Thank you like that just needs to exit.

I'm tired of mirrors from my mac and having one monitor. I need spac final cut. Yeah i'm just and tim, you could make that happen tomorrow if you want to to uh, no, I think yes, it's also part of IT is apple could have gone two different directions with, like attracting people to this V R.

idea. One of them was super, super high and amazing tech. The other, which is a limit less.

Apple, like is super, super accessible, available, cheaper. And I think they typically go with this before they go with that. So ideally, drum up excitement, people get to experience this, which that's what they are doing. You can go to an apple store today and experience the fun thing.

But someday when there is a apple vision pro, esc, whatever, that's going to be the another exciting moment for, okay, the developers have gotten the thing to the form after or now it'll start to be available for the masses. But that's T, V, D. We have to say, yeah, yeah.

there there is something really fun that that I found very interesting in blog post, kind of piggy backing off that about how apple, like over engineer E R, this thing on purpose. Can you like expand on that idea little bit?

yeah. So I think we all know that vision problem has just been under development for years and years at apple. I'm sure they've gone through like you know hundreds of prototypes and so on, and a lot of these technologies that sort of became good enough to ship became good enough to ship like a couple of years ago, right in the way that apple is there.

Kind of pipeline for launched product is like you have to start now devising IT, making IT like production ready, you know sometimes years in advance. So I think what happened is they just is like a train, right? Like so they just on board IT a bunch of these technologies.

You know a few years ago onto a train continued to work on them um and today there's ways to do in a less sensors, lighter sensors and so on. But like that stuff isn't ready to go internally at apple, at least at the level of quality in the migration that they need. So they just got to ship the stuff that's been on the shelf for a while.

So I think that's one component, right, is just like it's technology that was built a couple of years ago that leads to like higher weight and so on the forth. The other thing is like the this being the first time they are launching this product into the world, they have to make IT, almost like unbreakable, able, right then. They have to make IT extra everything so that no matter what developers throw at IT, no matter what reviewers threw at IT, no matter what users throw at IT, IT will sustain. So I really think that that's part of what they're done in is like and over doing a little bit, over playing a little bit, just saw that they are in the kind of a safe position before starting to take some risks. There could be a lot of crap gate type playing, 对 吧？

Yeah, yeah. Well, there's always people will find gates no matter what they, they have a habit of doing that. I maybe an x central question to finish this, which is okay.

We want to make this the most incredible piece of technology of all time, super immersive, best field of view, highest resolution. Let's fast ford a little bit. Let's get, let's get ten years down the line with the highest, best possible V, R headset if people are able to successfully deliver retina resolution.

And as a bone of let's throwing other senses too, it's got incredible speakers and IT can make you feel heat or cold and the winding or hair, let's say, you can give people all of the census to of your headset. And you go out to this virtually reconstructed grand can in in the headset and you look at IT, and you really think you're looking at the grand king. And like all of of your senses are fully tricked.

You hear the birds chomping, you hear that you feel the winding your hair and you feel the heat on the top of your head through the headset. And you know it's through the headset, but IT is a perfect reconstruction. Do you still feel and there's no right answer to this, but do you still feel like you have to go see the real thing? Or do you feel like you've .

seen are you in the oasis at that point?

Basically, I think think the world of the story is watch ready player on kids. It's kind of how I feel sometimes, but I I wonder .

what is that yeah you know I I think that it's like mostly great that people you will be able to get to places that they oh wise maybe could not afford to go or can travel you know all that far, take the vacation to go to and so on. But I think there's just a little bit of like, okay, that's like a philosophical chAllenge for humanity like this kind of at its fullest state. But you know I think it's mostly great and you're still not going to be able to like hugging VR you .

never know I felt have to have the gloves are pretty, pretty good. This is getting your terrible and .

yeah I think the end state of this is teleportation. Know you you talked about that in that video that you put out in a few weeks ago. I think that's the greatest contribution to humanity of this new computing paradigm is just being able to just be with other people in their house or in your house or in some other place. It's gonna take a while to get there.

Yeah, it's pretty beautiful. yeah. Well, I have one more question for you. How fast can you type the alphabet?

Oh, it's been such a long time since I think I measure that last. I may have to try again.

Well, boy, do we have the test for you. There's a bit of a traditional around here where we have our guests typed the alphabet a through z as fast as you can. You can be as competitive or non competitive as you like, but we will offer you a style keyboard.

three different keyboard types. You can either use the keyboard bilton you there is a mechanical keyboard or there's like a apple magic keyboard.

What if you I think i'm going to go. Apple, a magic. yeah. okay.

Do you do you spend a lot time typing on like apple keyboards like .

a little I I have that exact same magic keyboard.

that person .

home .

field and and I also have A D G key. Thanks to Andrew convincing me that make .

kind of keyboard Better. He's gotten into our heads at some point and definitely get off the bug.

I just bought a kind of cokey board because of Angel.

I went backwards. I used to be in the mechanical cokey words, and I am like, give me the magic keyword screen.

Let's try. It's already amazing. okay? Well, it's pretty simple. All you got to do is a hit the letter a and then hit the letter b and then hit the letter sea. And then when you hit z, don't hit enter just that's IT yeah. If I made a mistake.

if you make a mistake, IT will not continue .

until you hit the appropriate letters. So you don't have to backspace, you just have to hit every letter in order.

So you have to watch the screen while your type.

make sure you okay. Do I get .

one practice? We will give you three total runs. OK. Most people tend to improve as they go, you know, no pressure. OK.

i'm glad were not recording right. Here we go.

You know there's one chAllenge here, which is. Get about i'm going to do again five seconds, five point five seconds. I think that's pretty good. That's already pretty good.

Five, five. yeah. Spread anything. You think .

it's .

pretty good. We have a little leader board.

Five point seven, nice .

staying. One more. I feel like IT pretty .

high a little board and of the litter board available.

He does. I have to put up.

Four point eight three, wow.

Four point eight three, 哇 wow。 You up in tens of the second off of that time. Ah so four point eight three puts you right after mark s. And head of .

josh, oh my god, five .

done. Well done. You go and in damage pretty that is very impressive.

This I didn't know .

about yeah you never know. And this is just like, first the point. All right.

that's good. I will take that .

if you're curious about some other times. The list is very whose extensive who's top? Tom Scott, three point five seconds. Well, tom Scott was very prepared, very competitive, broke out his own keyboard and goes, I don't think there's any double digits on there.

but i'll look at clear four point three yeah then that's good. Yeah and queen, yeah. So you know.

people who type a lot people spend a lot of time on keyboards, and you might be surprised as a fast I can type the alphabet, but that's IT that's that's where we end IT. So thank you for thank you for your time and of course, for all the insight. Well, we love to have you back. Obviously, we talk about stuff like this all the time, not just the current text, but the history in the context of. So this is a super fun and a hopefully you get to do IT again some time.

It's a dream and true to be here. Thank you guys.

Great work. Appreciate IT. So that's about IT that that was really fun. Thanks again, hugo, for comment of the studio and for sharing the time the expertise.

So it's fun to having conversations with people who are very knowledgeable about this stuff. And I feel like this is still very early. Like as much as we've talked about VR for the past ten years, like this is rapidly developing.

We didn't even touch spac. What are they called spider personas? Yeah in this conversation.

And like all the weird stuff that's been happening with hardware since that conversation, brand's vision pro has all this stuff is is going to be pretty constant. But I feel like this is a fun spot for this episode. In this conversation is a good.

So thanks again. Leave any comments of anything that you learned maybe while listening to episode, but may be you will be in the comments, maybe he, maybe he will. That would be put pretty sick.

But I think this is a part where we sign out. Oh yeah, whatever, please. Actually, I think David is already.

Let's start to social with the box. New york music is being .

so else. Know pretty. What do keep IT.

Hey, it's lee from decoder with the label. We spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in taking business about what they're putting resources to and why do they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series, diving into some of the most unique ways companies are spending money today.

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