YouTube Goes all in with Shorts!
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Hey, what is up, people of the internet? Welcome back to another episode of the Waveform Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm Marques. And I'm Andrew. And in this week's episode, we go remote, and I speak with a guest. So we're going to jump into that, but basically, and we'll get to the trivia at the very end since I didn't do trivia in the middle of it, but it was an interview, a

A lot of people don't know about this, but roughly once every year, minus the past few for the pandemic, but roughly once every year, YouTube gathers together the sort of top 100 creators in the Americas, North America, and has a North American creator summit where they bring all these creators together in one hotel.

and put all the YouTube executives in the same hotel and then everybody fights. Just kidding. Everybody has conversations and understands not just each other as people better, but the economics of the way new features work and the way new things at YouTube are happening. And it's just an understanding that I don't think I've seen any other platform do. It's really interesting.

They also have one for, I think, Asia and Africa, and they have one for Europe, and they have a couple other creator summits. But I've been at a bunch of these creator summits now, and they're usually a really interesting, a good time. And I usually come home with notes. And I think it's a really unique thing that YouTube does. It's like an open discussion between...

how all the top creators are feeling while also having YouTube executives there, right? To just all kind of have almost brainstorming or just like clarification aspects. Yeah. And there's always like a thing, like a theme about like what's happening on YouTube at that time is the hot topic. Like this time it was shorts. Like this was the creator summit where everyone had questions about what YouTube is doing with shorts. There was new feature announcements that we'll get into. I remember the year that it was the adpocalypse and,

where they knew what all the questions were gonna be about and they just had to answer them all. And that's the one time that you get some real answers out of YouTube executives instead of PR answers, and I find that super useful. So anyway, this time, I actually got to, on top of my time at the summit with everybody there, I got to spend some time with Neil Mohan. He's the chief product officer at YouTube.

And he was like, "Yeah, we should record our conversation and just talk about YouTube and we'll put it in the podcast and this can all go out with the announcements that YouTube recently made." So we did that. We just were in this extremely ugly suite in the back of a hotel somewhere. It looks terrible, but it is a very useful conversation. I'll put it that way. - It's an interesting setup for sure. - Yeah, we just made it happen at the last second. - Audio is great though. - Audio is great. - So audio listeners, you're not gonna notice anything. - Yeah, you won't even know what's going on in the video version. It's great.

Um, so we, we did jump right into some of the interesting stuff. Like between the last time we spoke, YouTube got rid of the dislike button. He knew I was going to ask about that. So I was very curious to hear what he said, talked about things like the algorithm, how it affects creators, how creators sort of push back against the algorithm. Um,

I also brought up a very recent study that I read on the plane ride to the Creator Summit, which was about how the algorithm sometimes doesn't change when you tell it you're not interested in something. So a bunch of interesting stuff just to hear what people who work for YouTube on these actual features actually say about this stuff. So I think that's pretty much all the intro it needs. Roll the tape.

All right, Neil, thanks for joining me on the podcast this week. We appreciate the time. Thanks for having me, Marques. Huge, been a longtime fan, so glad to be here. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. That's great coming from someone at YouTube. I like hearing that. So speaking of YouTube, what's your official title? And what would you, how do you describe what you do to someone?

who asks? Maybe you have like a quick sentence or two elevator pitch type thing. Sure, yeah. So my official title is I'm the Chief Product Officer at YouTube. I've been at Google and YouTube a very long time at this point, coming up on a decade and a half. And, you know, the way I describe my role is all the products that you as a creator, all of our viewers around the world, all of our partners use on a daily basis, that's ultimately my team's responsibility. So I look after...

Our products from the main app to YouTube Kids to the music app to YouTube TV, all of the user design and the aesthetics of the product. And I also am responsible for what we call trust and safety, which are our community guidelines and content policies that govern the content on our platform.

Got it. Yeah, YouTube is, when you put it like that, it's a lot of different products that all work together. There's tons of things happening. But you mentioned design and UI, so I'll just jump right to it. You guys got rid of the dislike button or the dislike counter.

About how long ago is that a few months ago a few months ago now? I'm almost coming up on a year actually at this point. Okay You know what I'm gonna get into how's that gone and what sort of Processes go into making a decision like that. And do you think it went the way you expected? Yeah, so on the on the first part of your question, and I know you you

of course had, had your, had a very strong point of view on it. And, um, the thesis as, as you rightly pointed out in, in all of your comments was, um, a wellbeing thesis for our creators. That was the fundamental reason it was about, um, everything from dislike brigades to, you

You know, kind of that sort of that sort of count Olympics likes, dislikes, that sort of thing. And it was not a trivial decision. I'll get into kind of the decision making process in a second, because I think that was like a canonical example of sometimes how some of these hard decisions are made.

But in terms of how it's going, I think that at the highest level, it's going the way that we expected it to, which is we feel, or at least I feel, that it was the right decision based on the data that we're seeing. And so we looked at...

a couple of things. We looked at one from the creator standpoint, which was this notion of, um, you know, dislike brigades and things like that. And that has been, that is down. So when we look at sort of the same period year on year, so I think we looked at, um,

Most recently, I think the last month, so kind of August, September of 2022 versus August, September of 2021, it is down. Now, of course, that's not a controlled experiment, but it is something that we looked at year on year. And that was something that was kind of the creator facing metric that I was interested in looking at. The second thing, though, which I think you alluded to in your video, which I think was

was something that I wanted to track because it was a good point, which is how is that signal used, like the glance at sort of point that you were making around ratios, et cetera. And we have seen –

Again, year on year, sort of roughly the same time period. User satisfaction with the videos, and we measure this in a number of different ways, not just behaviorally, but as you know, you've seen the surveys that show up in the feed sometimes asking about specific videos. That number has gone up year on year. Now, again, that's not a controlled number, and there's lots of factors that can go into whether that number goes up or not, one of them being just we're getting better at recommending content or search ranking and those types of things. It goes up a lot.

Yeah, but we have an idea of sort of roughly how it goes up. And those things, those changes to ranking and recommendation tweaks, those are controlled experiments. And so we are able to understand sort of what those add up to. And I think that our feeling is that looking at a number of these signals, it hasn't – at the very least hasn't had the impact that people were worried about in terms of people not being able to find information.

the right videos and searches and things like that. And so those are just, I'm just giving you sort of ballpark of some of the metrics we're looking at. We'll continue to monitor that to see if that continues. But that's sort of roughly how it's going. On your second question, what I would say there is that I think it's a good example of the types of decisions

that we make and that ultimately come to me. I always say that, you know, if a decision's coming to me to make in a product review or what have you, oftentimes,

It's a choice between two bad options or two not perfect options. Otherwise, the decision would be made at multiple parts of our organization. And this was an example of a very difficult decision because it involved a lot of the trade-offs that you made. And so the teams put together proposals when we were getting this feedback from creators and the like. We looked at a number of different options, things that we could do.

And ultimately, we made the hard call that when push comes to shove, one of the things that we will err on the side of is the well-being of our creators. And that is ultimately a decision that was made in a product review with not just me, but our product managers, our leaders from other functions across YouTube.

once we got some of the data, some of the feedback, and then we also at that point committed that we would follow this over time as well. - Right. Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, it seems like it's something that's sort of averaging out, it's evening out, the behaviors are now, it looks normal again. Every time there's a UI change on YouTube, it takes a minute before it's not jarring anymore to me 'cause I use YouTube so much.

But a really interesting point that you made, and I think I've maybe heard some other executives say something along the same lines, which is like, if a decision gets to me, then it's probably a really hard decision, 'cause there's so many people who work on these things, and if it's getting to the highest level without a resolution, it's a big call for you. How do you know when something is big enough to get to that level? 'Cause when I think of YouTube as a bunch of different products,

there's inevitably like little bugs or like little things that pop up here and there maybe worth acting on maybe not worth putting time into how do you know when something is uh actually a big decision coming to you that you'll eventually have to make a choice on yeah it's a really good question and i and i the way i um

The way I think about my role, not just in terms of sort of helping make those decisions or tie-breaking or what have you, is setting up the mechanisms so that that process actually happens smoothly. And for me, I think it comes down to kind of three things. One is about the people. So we need to build an organization that...

is full of talented people, obviously focused on our creators and viewers and looking to do the right thing. If we don't have the right people building our products on a daily basis, then, then, you know, none of this matters, right? That's, that's, that's the bedrock of everything. But then I think there's two other things. One is having a set of principles. And so one of the ways that I like to, to think about YouTube is we have a set of

whether it comes to our product decisions, our policy decisions, things like YouTube is an open platform, but we also have community guidelines. Those are two principles that are in tension, but they work together to also reinforce each other. Creators come first in terms of how we think about the heart of YouTube and what it is. And I have found that having crystal clarity on those principles is

and repeating them over and over is sort of the lifeblood of a product organization because then product managers generally are empowered to make decisions along the lines of those principles and that, and you know, there's thousands of decisions being made every day on behalf of viewers and creators. So that way not everything bubbles up to me. And then the final thing is besides people and principles is just

having sort of the right processes in place by which those things get escalated very quickly so that they don't fester. I think one of the things that is poison in an organization, a product development organization, is decisions festering because people feel like they need to bring a consensus decision to me as opposed to two competing viewpoints. And so having the processes by which it is okay to escalate those and escalate those quickly I think is very important.

Makes a lot of sense. I'm probably gonna have to use these tips in future organizations I'm a part of. But, you know, I think one of the things that's always struck me about YouTube is, and you've said it already a couple times, it's a very creator first approach.

creator facing organization and especially with tech and other companies we've seen Twitter and Instagram and TikTok and all these others we're speaking at the creator summit right now which is something I don't see other companies doing for some reason I think it's a great idea and we're doing it in person and it's in person which is you know it's crazy we haven't spent two or three years since the last one um

But I also wonder, and I've wanted to ask someone at YouTube this for a long time, in this 2022 world of, I guess it feels more visible than ever that people kind of chase the algorithm in a way that rewards them, but it also shifts their content and the way they run their businesses.

And I'm curious if you think about the decisions that you make at YouTube and how they affect what creators will then go try to do to keep up or to match it. So there's algorithmic changes that happen all the time.

you know whether it's switching from views to watch time to whatever and inevitably you see not just optimizations from creators but like full-on like chasing the absolute maximum of it. Do you think about that at all with the way creators sort of push it to the extreme? Yeah I think that's a really great question and actually I think it gets at the heart of how we think about our products you know we think I think about what YouTube is

is like we're building, we're really building a stage, a stage for you as a creator to do what you do best to show off your talents and it's gotta be the world's best stage.

and then also with the best seating, lighting, et cetera, so that the viewers can enjoy it as well. And so that's the analogy. But to take your very specific point, I think it's an important one because we believe, and this goes back to the principles point I was making before, that our job is to help our creators succeed over the long run, to build careers on our platform. And so what that means is that it's not about...

you know, kind of like a, whatever, like a, you know, sugar rush flavor of the moment, kind of a thing, whatever's happening in terms of the algorithm or some particular trend or what have you. Obviously those are important. Lots of trends obviously start on YouTube, but it's about the long run. And so like one example that, that I like to use is, you know, a creator on our platform, a creator, an artist or what have you can use

YouTube Shorts to introduce their audience to a new idea. It might be a new song, it might be something else. And that's 15 seconds, 30 seconds, and that can bring in lots of interest. But very quickly, the fans might be interested in learning

not just about that neat trick or that song, but who that creator is. And that's about long-form content. That might be about a live stream. That might be about engaging with the creator in comments or afterstage or in posts or in stories. And so because we have this sort of truly multi-format approach to our creators, we believe that we're offering kind of that full suite to their fans of

to really get to know the creator. And it's about the creator, it's about their name, who they are, what they stand for, as opposed to what's happening this week. And that's like a really, really important thing that I think is really core to YouTube. And every time I talk to creators,

That's the thing that I hear over and over. I was just with some shorts creators yesterday, and that's the thing that they kept telling me is like, that's the essence of YouTube. Never let that go when it comes to your product decisions. And so I just, it's a long answer to your question, but I wanted to kind of describe that because it is a core principle. And it's in the name. I guess that's the original intention. That's YouTube. Exactly. Yeah. On that note, we're going to take a quick break for ads. We'll be right back with Neil.

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Okay, so there's a question I wanted to ask also. There was a study, actually I think I just saw it yesterday, by Mozilla, that the no longer interested button or the dislike button don't have as much of an effect on future recommendations as probably expected. And I wonder, I imagine it's by design, everything on YouTube is in some way intentional, but do you think users should have

entirely control over these recommendations. I'll give you a quote, which is, I think it's probably a Steve Jobs quote, but basically that users don't really know exactly what they want until you give it to them or show it to them. And then they realize that's what I wanted the whole time. There's a ton of people watching YouTube videos. Do they know what they want? You know, the way, so I believe, and I think, you know, my organization believes that

that the viewers should be in control of what they are, how they're consuming YouTube. And that's down to the very basic levels, right? Like if you don't want YouTube to use your watch history or search history in any of the personalization, you can turn that off. Like there are really, really fundamental controls in terms of how all of that works. You described some of them in terms of feedback,

within the product themselves, we use all of those signals. I think, you know, we, the latest number I saw was something like we use like 80 billion signals a day in terms of what's being ranked in your home feed, on your watch next pages, search rankings, et cetera. And so that's our bread and butter in terms of getting a very, very high quality about it.

And we do use signals like that. What we don't do, and I'm not familiar with the details of the study you're referring, but I did hear about it, is we do take those signals into account. We don't...

turn off entire topics because one of the things that we also get feedback on is, you know, make sure that users aren't being inadvertently put into echo chambers or rabbit holes in a way that could happen. And so while we honor the specific feedback in terms of the button or what have you, it might refer to the specific video as opposed to the whole topic.

And we use, as I said, a blend of signals to actually determine those recommendations. And as you know, Marques, probably better than anybody, we're always...

We're always tweaking them, we're adjusting them because we're always getting feedback both direct from our users but also in terms of the data that we're seeing in terms of how the platform is being used. Yeah, my theory is that there are just so many signals that that little bit of input might not actually make as big of a change as people assume when there are so many other things going into the decision of what to recommend next.

But I'll send you the study. Yeah, I mean, one other thing that I'll add to that, though, is back to, again, sort of kind of core North Star principles. We do look at things like long-term user satisfaction. Like, that's a core metric that we look at in terms of...

how users are engaging with their platform. Are they satisfied in terms of what they're watching? Is that a trend that continues over the long term? And we measure our launches by that

And so for me, that's really the most important thing, which is across our user base, not only do they have, you know, kind of immediate controls over sort of how their personalization is working, but long term is the recommendation algorithm doing what it was designed to do in the first place. And so I think that's a really important point that sometimes gets lost in these details is like we do have.

means by which we are measuring the overall success of what we're trying to accomplish on behalf of our viewers. Also on the topic of like YouTube being a ton of different products, this is a podcast. We're going to have a video version of our podcast up. And YouTube, when you think about it, is one of the biggest podcast players, basically. There's also YouTube Music, which is one of the biggest...

music services. And every time I see those stats, I always wonder, why doesn't YouTube make like more tailor-made players for these specific types of media? I always pictured a different looking podcast player. You know how you listen to music, you get the next song button, but if you listen to a podcast, you get the 45 second fast forward button. Do you think about, you know, tailoring more specifically to different types of videos as far as products at all? Obviously there's a ton going on with stories and shorts and all that, but

What about podcast players and things like that? Yeah, I do. And so I think that YouTube is a visual, not just a visual platform, but an audio-visual platform. You rightly point out music, of course. Music is part of the long-term heritage of YouTube in many ways. But podcasts are a big... And actually, the way I describe it to our teams is we are a...

a very large podcast platform without us having done a lot, frankly, to support podcast creators, um, as well as listeners of podcasts. I'm a big podcast listener myself. And, uh, so I, what I'll say there is stay tuned because I do believe that, um, you know, you gave me an example in terms of controls. Like I think that entire experience in terms of everything from corpus discovery to, um, uh,

organization to consumption to kind of follow on the viewer side and then on the creator side tools that they need that podcasters need right like there are longer forms of content so things like

monetization via mid-rolls and things like that are more important in that context than they might be in others. And so we're looking at both sides of that. And we already have, I think, a pretty strong foundation in terms of how to deal with audio content with the YouTube Music app. So stay tuned for more that we're doing on the podcast front. Yeah. Yeah. It kind of reminds me of what I was talking about earlier, where creators are

melding into the YouTube format. I love podcasts and I listen to a lot of audio podcasts, but when I wanted to make a video podcast, I had to think about it as a YouTube channel. And so we run them as a YouTube channel and in the YouTube way. But like you said, there can be more done, so I'm interested in that, we'll see. But let's get to the announcement that came out recently, which I think a lot of people here are very interested in and excited about, which is YouTube Shorts,

monetization will now graduate from a creator fund, which is a fixed amount, to revenue sharing platform.

Break that down for us. Obviously, the decision was probably pretty easy. This is a better way to do it. But tell us how you arrived here and what exactly it is. Yeah. So this is a I think it's a pretty big deal. I'm super excited about it. As you know, we've had the YouTube Partner Program, which is our kind of flagship monetization program for creators, I think since 2007 now. And it has eligibility criteria for it. It's a couple million creators that are part of that program. A couple million. Yeah.

Of course, that's held us in good stead for creators, for long-form creators. And we wanted to take the best of that program and basically bring it to shorts. And so in some sense, you're right. Given the success that we've had with the creator economy and, you know, I think the number was something like we've given out $50 billion to our creators, artists. Yeah.

media companies over the last three years we want to build on that for shorts because shorts is like this really rapidly growing format that we're seeing amongst our creator community and so we're going to bring um the ypp program to shorts there will be different eligibility criteria because shorts of course is a bit of a different format and that's going to be uh 10 million views over a 90-day period and then you know creators can apply they can be part of the

can then therefore be part of YPP. And once you're in YPP, whether you come in through the Shorts doorway or you come in through the traditional doorway, you're basically part of YPP. And so both your long form content and Shorts content can monetize. And so that's sort of the first thing that I'll say. The other thing, by the way, that we announced just as a quick aside was we're also going to be rolling out a new lower tier for fan funding creators. So these are smaller creators.

who may want to monetize their content through things like Super Chat, Super Stickers, Super Thanks, channel memberships. And so that's something to stay tuned for in 2023. But back on your shorts piece,

Um, the way, you know, obviously shorts ads work differently. Shorts is much more of a feeds consumption experience. And so we will insert the advertising from our ad partners in that feed from a viewer standpoint. Um, and we will essentially pull together the views in that feed. Uh, we will pay out, um,

things like music licensing costs. And then from the creator pool, creators will earn 45% of revenue. And that's basically based on their share of views in that pool over kind of a 30-day period. Okay. I have a bunch of granular questions inside of this. So I think it's a great announcement and obviously puts the pressure on some other short-form platforms to sort of follow suit. I think that's pretty clear. But, okay, so...

First of all, 10 million views in 90 days seems like a lot, right? But I also fundamentally think that a view on a short is worth a different amount from a view on a long form video. So I think

It's reflected in the 10 million views. Like if you asked a long form creator to get 10 million views in 90 days, that would be a pretty big ask. Does YouTube kind of see it the same way? I imagine like a 100 to 1 ratio or something like that. Yeah, I don't have the exact sort of ratio or sort of the breakdown there. But, you know, I think your analogy is right. And that's the reason why the criteria are different. And so, you know, as you know, on the kind of traditional long form side, it's...

You know, the 1,000 subs – by the way, the 1,000 subs applies – I forgot to mention that in the shorts piece as well. But the difference, the main difference is the 4,000 hours over the course of a year. And so you can see that that's based on kind of a time-based consumption as opposed to a view-based consumption. Right. A view, right.

A single view. You've seen people scroll shorts in TikToks. Like you could watch for 0.3 seconds and scroll to the next one. I imagine just like long form content, there's a way of determining what is a view and you don't just scroll past them and all of them get a view. You're not going to tell me what the exact criteria are, but there is some criteria, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you have to count views in a certain special way. And then you said 45% of the creator portion is,

Can you say that part again? 45%? Yeah. So there's a pool of views basically over the course of a month, let's say. And then it's all the ad revenue that's generated for that pool of views in a particular country. There's a portion of that that will go towards paying the music licensing costs. And so just on that point, as you know...

Music is a really important part of short form video. It's a huge, huge kind of component to what our creators are looking for. And so that covers that. Then there's basically kind of what I'm calling this creator pool. And that creator pool is going to be shared 45% with creators. Got it. Okay. So it's not 45% of all of the total revenue generated by the shorts.

but it's the total revenue generated by the shorts minus the amount to pay for the licensing to be able to use music, and then 45% of the remaining goes to the creators. Yeah, and then the other thing that I should say is that one of the things that we have done with this new shorts-focused monetization program is make it so that that 45% is paid out regardless of whether you use music or not because we really wanted to simplify that

the whole sort of complexity that was associated with music acquisition and licensing, which of course is quite a complicated process. And for a shorts creator, especially somebody who's looking to do something for 15, 30 seconds, it can be pretty daunting, especially for a new creator. And so we wanted to make it so that regardless of whether you're using music or not in your, um,

in your platform, the monetization out of that creator pool is the same. And so that was the other big sort of kind of innovation. And there's a lot of shorts only creators here at the Creator Summit, I imagine. Do you imagine someone doing a lot of views and shorts will make the same as they were before or less or more with this new model?

So that's a good question. I am really excited about the potential of shorts. I do spend time, obviously not just with our creator community, but also speaking with advertisers. A lot of my career was focused on building advertiser products. And so...

And I see general excitement amongst our advertiser community. So I'm bullish. I'm really bullish about the way that YouTube is approaching shorts in terms of how that plays out in the long run in terms of monetization. I couldn't tell you today, but I do think this shift

away from this kind of limited shorts fund that we had in place to this full-fledged YPP program is an indicator of how bullish we are about the monetization potential of shorts. But the other thing that I should say, just to be very clear, is

You know, YouTube and our creators have grown up on long form. Like YouTubers invented that. Like we call it long form. It didn't, it used to be the original short form. It used to be YouTube. It was shorts before. Yeah, we made short videos. Exactly. And that is front and center in everything that we do. So much of my team's innovation is focused on that. Livestream is another big format that we're focused on. Making sure that YouTube works incredibly well on living room devices is a really big component of our work.

future as well. Shorts is as well, but it's all of those other things. And so that's why I keep coming back to this notion of truly multi-format. It's up to our creators to do what works best for their audience. And we need to support all of those formats.

Yeah, I think it's clearly something that's going to evolve over time. We see shorts like with this explosive growth and tons of people going, oh, I got to get in on this. I got to try to see if I can make shorts. It's funny. I used to make three, four minute videos and not even to chase any algorithm, but I've slowly made longer and longer videos over the years. A

normal review video for me is like 13 14 minutes long yep would have been an insane video back in the day uh but now i'm like all right let's try to make some shorts and everyone i make is like 58 and a half seconds 59 seconds because i'm trying to

Jam all the information to this short form thing, but you know that's gonna evolve over time - I'm sure I'll get better at it I guess lastly what sort of What stuff are you excited about for the future of YouTube? This is just a broad nebulous question that you would be in a good position to answer So I'll just let you paint whatever picture you want. There's all kinds of tools products you could be working on Tell me about it. Yeah I'm I'm

super bullish. I mean, the thing that gets me up in the morning just to be and has been sort of a theme of my career is it really is supporting the creator economy. I mean, I believe that it's because of YouTube that your creativity and talents can get to people like, you know, like my 14 year old son, like

someone like him, exactly like him on the other side of the world. And that like is inspiring to me. And so everything that goes into that from building audiences, so support for multi-track audio, right? So that your content is accessible to anyone all over the world, right? Things like the monetization features that we rolled out yesterday, this new creator music

marketplace that we talked about so that creators can continue to grow that way. That is super exciting to me. I alluded to this earlier, but you know, there's so much conversation around things like shorts. And as you know, my team is very, very focused on it, but I'm also focused on things like connected TV and the living room experience and how that continues to grow and how we continue to innovate in terms of sort of longer form content there. Yeah.

it, uh, shopping is another area, you know, people, lots and lots of our viewers tell us this through their behavior, through their feedback, that they come to YouTube to connect with their favorite creators. Uh, but you know, just like you go to the mall to hang out with friends and be entertained, um, have lunch and you might purchase a hairbrush or a pair of jeans, et cetera. That's all part of that experience. We, uh, want to enable those types of, um,

those types of use cases as well. And then the last thing I'll say, just kind of because it's an important part of my responsibility is also continuing, the bedrock of all of this is continuing to live up to our responsibility as a global platform. We didn't talk a lot about that today, but we have a lot of focus on making sure that

uh that youtube is a place that is not uh doesn't is that has no home for hate or harassment or things like that and so that's the bedrock of everything we do and so those are some ideas of what i'm super excited about both for our creators as well as um for for our viewers and all of our fans and i think kind of the next you know five years are going to be even more exciting than the last

For sure. I like the analogies, man. YouTube's a mall to hang out with your friends and then maybe buy some stuff. Or YouTube's a stage with the best audience and the best stage. Neil, thank you for the time. I appreciate it. And hopefully we'll do this again sometime. Awesome. Looking forward to it. All right. Well, that was a lot to unpack. We are going to unpack it a little bit right after the break. See you in a second.

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So, a little bit to unpack, a little bit of reactions. You've heard now the conversation I had with Neil. You heard his answers. You heard some of his answers and his non-answers.

I am coming away feeling like, okay, I mean, the Creator Summit was obviously a whole experience and I was there for a few days and I talked to a lot of people and like, I have all my little notes, but at the end of the day, I do still feel like YouTube is the place to be for a creator of videos online. Like that answer is not changing, but there's a lot of interesting shifting in the landscape. Maybe we can break down a little bit. Yeah.

I mean, the biggest thing, obviously, is the YouTube Partner Program with shorts. Sure. I think. I mean, like, that's just the thing that kind of has grasped all the headlines. It's awesome. We've talked about creator funds from TikTok and from previous YouTube stuff. I think it lights a fire under TikTok. It has to. So that's a question I have, like, right off the bat. Yeah. Is when I first read this, I was really pumped for people who were able to make money, but I can't decide if I think, is this a move that will...

whether it's what they want to happen or not, but the end result here, are we going to see TikTokers move to YouTube making shorts or are we just seeing now a better platform for already, I don't even want to say established YouTubers, but people who focus on YouTube getting a better tool that they'll utilize way more now? So it's definitely both. And I think it was funny in that room, like I've been to all the creator summits and look, I watch a lot of YouTube. So typically when I get to the creator summit,

I'm surrounded by faces I've seen online for a long time. This was the first Creator Summit where I was like, I don't recognize most of you. A lot of people, a lot of older, I mean, still a lot of the people who I've recognized were there, but then there was a bunch of new faces online

And talking to a lot of them, there were shorts creators. There were people who had come to YouTube, whether it was from TikTok or they just arrived on YouTube and they just made shorts. I talked to a channel called Dental Digest. Have you heard of Dental Digest? I've heard you talk about them before. He just pulled up his channel and was showing me some of the stuff he was doing. He had a bunch of toothbrush shorts, 200, 150 million views per short, just talking about toothbrushes.

That's what was happening around me at the Creator Summit. Wow. So to answer your question, yes, this is aimed at TikTokers who will see the opportunity to make money doing what they're already doing and start putting stuff on YouTube. That's for sure an intended consequence of what they're doing. But I think it's also just as likely that you're going to see all of the algorithmic push and all of the focus on shorts happening.

to make other long form creators try shorts. That's exactly what I'm starting to do. So I think both are gonna be happening. Yeah, I see it as clearly a goal to grab people from TikTok. I wonder if the audience is quite there yet to be...

If you're coming from TikTok having, say you're one of the D'Amelio sisters and you're getting, what, 10 or 20 million views for like any TikTok that you post and you just have a wild audience. Like there are just so many more people on TikTok for that content right now where YouTube is always like jack of all trades and insanely good at all of it. And TikTok is so specifically focused on short form content there. It's true. So is that audience quite there yet? Is it worth it?

I think most people will say, yes, is it worth getting paid that extra money on there when maybe you're not getting the same viewership you are as TikTok?

how people will try to utilize both platforms, cross-posting, or if that's allowed, it'll be interesting. Oh, that's a whole, okay, a lot to unpack there. So one, the D'Amelio sisters do have a YouTube channel. They've been posting long-form stuff to very mixed success. And I think this new ad revenue sharing program, which is rolling out soon, will encourage them to do more short-form stuff that they're used to.

Two, is the audience there? Yes. YouTube shared some numbers with us and I'm not going to remember the exact numbers, but it was some absurd billions and billions of total shorts views already that they've started serving. And they can choose to flip switches to just show more people more shorts. So I think that won't be a problem as far as like,

Should we make shorts? Are there enough eyeballs there? I think so. Okay. And then what was the last part you said? Uh, cross. Oh, cross. Yeah. Cross posting. Yeah.

That's a little more complicated. I think basically none of the platforms like cross-posting. So if you are Instagram, you are less likely to want people to see shorts with a TikTok logo in it. And I think they've already admitted that they're less likely to push a video that has that branding in it. But also when you make a video with TikTok's tools, you get that watermark no matter what. So if you make that video with Instagram's tools, I believe you also get a Reels watermark and

And I think YouTube is the only one that doesn't have as strong of a stance, but is very likely to adopt one. So, but this almost, while this isn't a watermark, I could see it as a way to...

So my initial theory would be YouTube wants you to get the views on your short. Therefore, cross posting this on other things is less views you will get on the short, which is the thing that's making you money. So why would you want to also post that on TikTok rather for like discoverability and stuff like that? Because as many views as there are on shorts, I would argue there's probably still way more views online.

on tiktok we've true okay i've seen it ourselves yes but like if you're posting the same content on both platforms one is making you far more money than the other so exactly you're probably going to want the exclusivity on that one yeah or you'll at least never not put it on youtube true i think that's the goal it's like oh i was i was gonna make the tiktok anyway i might as well put it on youtube because it might get some clicks it might make some money why

why would I not want to invest a little bit of time there and potentially have that reward? But yeah, it's also just like,

Yes, all of TikTok is bigger than YouTube Shorts, but all of YouTube is still bigger than all of TikTok. And I think as Shorts grows, the real question is, is that going to eat into long form or is that an entirely separate pie? And I think most people are realizing now it's a separate pie. You don't take views away from your long form videos if you do Shorts, which is nice to see.

I don't know that there's people who watch. It's kind of weird. I get sucked into the carousels of all the apps now, like Reels I've scrolled through and then YouTube Shorts and then TikTok. It's absurd how many videos you'll see doing just that scrolling. But yeah, I think it's two different pies. You bring up an interesting conversation of how it doesn't really eat into long form because I was just talking with Adam and Ellis about this previously. We've talked about doing Shorts on all of our different platforms and-

I was kind of thinking of it as like MKBHD, you know, 10 to 20 minute videos is our bread and butter. We then created the...

podcast for a more niche part of that audience that we already have and made it longer because we wanted to talk about things in longer form and get more nitty gritty. Now we're going to create shorts, which is almost the opposite. We're going to condense the video form and expands the audience that we're trying to reach by talking about potentially more broad and general things in a much, much shorter time, which is

a whole nother beast to slay. It's very hard to brainstorm for that. It is very hard. I think it's also, there's, it's so young that there isn't really like a formula yet. Like, I think we know what like a basic short looks like, which is either like someone lip syncing to an audio trend or someone dancing. There's like, or, or like a joke. There's like four or five general shorts and,

But what does a tech short look like? I don't think that's a really well-defined thing yet. So I think that opportunity to like carve out a new vision of what you want that to be still exists.

which is really interesting to me. I've tried some things. We've tried like a little bit. Unboxing makes sense. That's a short thing. But it could be explainers in shorts. It could be some more well-produced animated looks in shorts. Like there's a bunch of stuff we could try. It'll just be a new audience that finds it. And the potential really is for people who find the tech short to then go on and find the long form videos too. That's the bet that we're hoping pays off.

I really like the idea of being able to update videos throughout the year, sort of through a short. Like if we do an iPhone review in September. Oh, interesting. Yeah, in September. And then in June, a big update comes out or people are wondering if they should get that phone or whatever. Like you can do a one minute update without having to do like a whole six months later. Software update, six months later, one year later. Yeah, that could be a thing. That's interesting. I do like...

It's always funny thinking about tech being such a subset. We talk to people like Jimmy, MrBeast, and there's all these theories on the algorithm and retention and things to maximize viewership. And if you follow this formula, the ceiling is 300 million views on a video. I've never seen a tech short, or any tech video for that matter, ever get past about 80 million views.

So it's just like a smaller ceiling. So do you optimize for the tech ceiling or the general ceiling? Like, do you want this to be shared among tech people a lot or among everybody? So maybe it's less of a tech video. You know what I mean? It's a question I think we'll be trying to figure out for the next four to six months. Yeah. And I'm excited to try. I'm excited to see what sticks and what's,

And I mean, what happens really, what people like and what people don't like and how it can pretty much just add on to the channel and provide more stuff. That's the way I want to think about it, adding on. Yeah. So I kind of have like after this whole interview and after this shorts announcement, I had kind of a small revelation about the content.

platforms on the internet in general. I'd love to hear that. I want to see what you think of this. And it's something that I've brought up

multiple times on the podcast. I've talked about Twitch and live streaming and how there are multiple times where I said, I don't know how YouTube isn't like going for the throat of Twitch because Twitch is known to make some of the worst decisions ever. It's almost like they don't have to. They're just like, Twitch is constantly on the forefront of streaming. They're the main platform for live streaming. And it baffles me how sometimes, because I think in general,

A lot of the stuff about their player is terrible. I think a lot of the decisions they make are terrible. There's a lot of people who absolutely hate the staff there and hate how they deal with things. So I always wonder how YouTube, this giant company run by Google, hasn't just taken them out yet because they have the capabilities there. After watching this,

I've kind of decided that I think YouTube is just playing the long game on everything. Oh, yeah. And I've realized it for a couple of reasons. So really quick to start this, if you haven't been paying any attention to Twitch in the last two weeks, there's been a boatload of drama everywhere.

I hear it's really stable over there. Yes. A lot of stuff is going. It's basically completely on fire. If you watch Philly D, Ludwig has a channel called Mogul Mail where he talks about everything. Ludwig, I think you said you met him at the... Yeah, we chatted at the... He is somebody who's streamed on Twitch and is on YouTube now, so he knows the ins and outs of both, the good and bad of both, and he talks about it very publicly. Highly suggest going and watching some of his videos to know what's happening on Twitch, but...

A ton, a ton of controversies have been happening. Then they throw out this rare announcement that's considered probably the most widely accepted and well-liked thing Twitch has ever done, which is ban some gambling on the platform. The day after, YouTube makes this announcement about YouTube Shorts, which doesn't seem to...

connect too much but then Twitch also makes an announcement about cutting partner revenue sharing from 70% 70-30 to 50-50 and just like wow

I don't know why one they're not uh for their higher well it's turning into everyone but the only people who are at 70 30 were the like higher higher partner streamers so it's like top x percent of streamers okay but those people are all having their income from twitch cut by 20 from at least that part of twitch I know there's a lot of math people out here are going to say it's not actually 20 when you take that section yes whatever um so anyways

That's just like this huge blow. At the same time, YouTube's announcing this giant win on partnership program for sure. It's like a whole new avenue that they're doing a great way for people to get paid. Now at the same time, as YouTube is in the media for doing well there, Twitch is also in the media for doing poorly there. And then on top of all that, all the new people who have switched to YouTube who are live streaming are talking about how great streaming on YouTube is.

riding the wave of the good YouTube press. So it just feels like everything's kind of falling around Twitch. And the more I look at it, the more I think YouTube's not going to kill TikTok right now. YouTube's not going to kill Twitch right now. But YouTube is slowly putting the pressure on them. And in five to 10 years, they realize that they're going to be the platform

that the main content of everyone's on and now they're grasping all the links from all the different ways you can create and turning it into one giant content ecosystem. It's the walled content garden. - This kind of reminds me of that question that we had before about new social media platforms. Are they a platform or a feature?

And to YouTube, they're all features, right? What is TikTok? It is just a feature built into YouTube. We've got shorts. It's just a part of the online video library. They clearly view everything as a feature. So what is Twitch? It's just a live streaming feature that we've also built in. And we've got like the super thanks button and the super chats and all this stuff built in. So if you're YouTube, you're not really too threatened by those that do a subset of what you do because you can always absorb that content.

as a new feature, it might take a couple years. There might be a little spike in people making a ton more money on Twitch. But in the long run, if you have this ability to connect all these different things together, if one creator can do live streams, videos, and shorts, there's only one place to do that. It's gotta be YouTube, right? I mean, it's pretty much, if you look at a lot of these mega stores like Target and Walmart,

maybe they are not as good as a mom and pop shop here or a grocery store there, but when you start having everything in the same store, you start rather going to that one store because it makes things far, far easier. I would like to go deeper into this analogy. If you were selling a product, where would you rather it be sold? You could sell way higher percentages in a smaller mom and pop shop. You could be like 90% of the sales of the mom and pop shop, which would be sick. But if you sell in Target,

You're going to get way more eyeballs and then you can sell other products and target. We'll have those other products too. And then you'll have way more sales. Do you know why that analogy doesn't work? Why? Because YouTube pays better also and is the mega store. Oh yeah. Well, so I mean it makes it, yeah, it makes it even better. Yeah. Yeah. It's YouTube. YouTube has the longevity. I think I, one of the earliest questions I got asked, I did a little panel at the creator summit cause they have creators talk to creators too. Uh, which is like, why'd you pick YouTube? Um,

And it's like, I like making videos. That's the baseline. And the question of like, where would I go to watch a video is YouTube. And that answer has been pretty stable for a while. Like we've had some others pop up once in a while. Like I go to TikTok for a video now and then. I'll go to Instagram for a video now and then. But like if I'm going to seek out a video,

I mean, Google is a pretty big search engine. They're dumping people on YouTube. YouTube is the second biggest search engine. You're going to find videos that way. I just think that answer is not changing anytime soon. To kind of wrap all this back into the beginning of this conversation, repeat.

Remember how you said there's a lot of faces that you didn't under, you didn't recognize and they're new faces. I feel like asking that question also proves that there's a lot of new faces there because why do you pick YouTube? Because it was 12 years ago and that was kind of the only thing to pick. Yeah. Now there's way more options out there. Vimeo. It wasn't, no, it was like if you wanted to live show, it was like Justin TV or.

Yeah. Yeah. But now it's like there is also the one downside, which is like sometimes YouTube leans into a new feature and then it kind of doesn't work out and they just sort of silently exit like stories. Remember, YouTube had stories. It still had. I think it still is a thing. You mentioned that in the interview with Neil. Yeah. And I was like, you didn't respond to stories. Yeah. It's like.

We know what happened there and I think their commitment to shorts seems much more deeply invested than it was in stories. I think it's way better than stories. So I'm thinking that's a good thing.

All right, well, I'm glad we got to have a conversation with him. And I think we'll keep an eye on shorts moving forward. We're going to try some shorts on the main channel. You heard it here first. And the podcast channel and the studio channel and every channel. Just trying some stuff. If you guys have ideas or suggestions about stuff that works best in short form, that's the conversation we're having in the studio. And that's the type of comments we want to read. So let us know what kind of stuff you think would work well in short vertical form.

I think the only thing we have left to do now is trivia. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it. I have the map. Nice. Nailed it. So Ellis just tried to talk, but he ended up choking. But we'll try that again. Choke. All right. Welcome back. Thank you. So today's trivia segment has a theme. That theme is mascots.

Okay. So, first trivia question for the week. Netscape Communications, maker of the Netscape browser, once used a giant green dinosaur as their mascot. What was his name? I just learned that Netscape had a giant green dinosaur as their mascot. Yeah, exactly. Why? Netscape, the browser, had a

It's funny, I can't remember the Netscape logo. I just auto think of Internet Explorer, to be honest. Yeah, I'm thinking of the giant E, which is not Netscape. Was Netscape a world? It had like an earth on it, right? Most of them started off in some sort of globe, like Firefox, Safari. The globe is probably... Can you look it up? We're just looking up the logo. The image of a world. Yeah, sure. Netscape logo? It's just an N. Oh. Oh, I do remember that.

Yeah, there's no dinosaur on here. We couldn't even remember the logo. Let me send you some pictures of the Netscape dinosaur. Of the dinosaur? Yeah, unless... This is a pure guess. I'm just going to go with Barney if I can't think of anything else. I mean, I'll just... You're going to write one?

If I'm thinking of a name, a two-legged dinosaur and a four-legged dinosaur would have different names. I'm about to send you the most 90s pictures of dinosaurs you could ever imagine. He's got a leather jacket and sunglasses. It looks like he would be airbrushed on a white t-shirt and sold at the Wildwood Boardwalk. 100%. That's exactly what this is. Which means his name is pretty 90s. All right. I have my guess.

Is that the same dinosaur? Oh, yeah. Oh, that's a very different looking dinosaur. All right. Well, my answer is probably wrong. All right. Anyone want to go first? Yeah, I'm just going to flip it. I mean, we both just flip it, right? Dino. Jack. I think it's Jack. Okay. Do you want the answer now or do you want both answers? Let's just, yeah, let's get the answer. The name of Netscape's green dinosaur was Mozilla. What? No. What?

And Mozilla is a shortened form of Mosaic Killah.

Wait, and then does it link into Firefox? It does connect into Firefox because I can't remember the order, but I'm pretty sure Netscape became Firefox at some point. Or there might have been another browser in there in the middle. But this all started when David and I were going down an even more ridiculous internet mascot rabbit hole. Because apparently the animal in the Firefox icon is not a fox.

Oh, I did learn this. It's a Firefox. It is a Firefox, which is the direct English translation for the Chinese word for red panda. And Mozilla is very adamant that the animal in the Firefox logo is not a fox. It's a red panda. But they could see how that would be confusing.

Not only is it confusing, but there's all these people who make these things where they study the anatomy of a red panda and the anatomy of a fox and using the angle of the ears and the snout length. I do think it looks more like a fox. It's definitely a fox. It's called Fire Fox. Yeah, it's definitely a fox. And it has a little white part on its snout. But in press releases, they're very clear. They're like, it is not a fox. It is a red panda. They should just accept it's a fox. Before this next mascot, we've already learned about the Netscape dinosaur.

The Red Panda Firefox. Remember, we learned about the Gateway Cow not that long ago. A lot of animals. As a plushie. Yeah. And now we're about to go into another one. Okay. So far, all real animals. Weird. Dinosaurs are real. Also, quick fun fact. Netscape released the source code for its browser and created the Mozilla organization. Huh.

There you go. It's a very wholesome story for the beginning of Mozilla Firefox. Next mascot. Yeah. It's wholesome except that the dinosaur's name is like a mosaic disc. It's literally the mosaic killer. That I didn't think too hard about, but I'm into it. We lost over that. Oh, yeah. I like it still. I like it. Okay. So score is still Andrew8sMarquez7, by the way. Yeah, good points. Nice. So Twitter's famous bird actually has a name. What is it?

I don't know why I'm thinking this. Don't overthink it. That's my hint. I almost wrote Jack again for Jack Dorsey. Twitter's famous bird. Twitter's famous bird. I want to guess what you wrote. Yeah. Did you write twit or something? No. Okay. I literally can't think of another name for a bird. It's a blue bird. I'm picturing it in my head. It's got the feather. Did it used to be green?

No. What? I don't know why I thought that. Like Aqua? No, it was always blue. I think there were some apps that you could change it to green back in the day. With Twitter Blue, you could change it to green. All right, I have an answer. That was just my Twitter Blue sponsor day. Ready? Ready. Three, two, one. Flip.

Tweet and wait J's a great guess like by the way, it's blue or blue J. Blue J Yeah, what is tweet from why don't you know? It sounds like a bird name kind of I keep thinking of Shauna Mallway tweet from Parks and Rec That sounds like a bird's name. We're deaf. It's just tweet. No. Okay good. I'd be really mad if it was just tweet It's Larry. What do you mean? Don't think too hard. Well, I heard

Wait. Wait, that doesn't make any sense. No way that's connected. That's the name of the bird. Larry. Okay, wait, explain. I'm not saying they named it after Larry Bird. I'm just saying. Well, they had to have named it after Larry Bird. Well, you can assume. Yeah. That seems like an unofficial type thing. Okay. All right, Larry Bird. Does Larry Bird have Twitter stock? Because...

Because if he's not the NBA logo, but he is the name of the Twitter logo, he deserves some. According to a tweet by Twitter co-founder Biz Stone, it is called Larry the Bird as a tribute to NBA icon Larry Bird. He better have stock. Larry, I'm going to get you some Twitter stock before this goes private or whatever's happening.

I'm very confused. Well, we know what's happening. Zero points there. Zero points. Not embarrassed at all by that. But we learned something today. We learned something today. Maybe the mascots were the friends we made along the way. Exactly. Exactly. I like that. That's a good place to end it. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. We'll catch you very soon. Will it be Techtober by the time we talk to these people again? Yes. Once it throws a Friday? Yeah, it'll be Techtober. So thanks for sticking with us this month and we'll catch you very soon in the next one.

Peace. Waveform was produced by Adam Molina and Ellis Roven. We are partnered with the Vox Media Podcast Network and our intro-outro music was created by Vane Sill. I almost said Ellis Roven.

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