Ep 51: When does BDSM become abuse?
30:36 Share

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Spanky Next, a fetish and BDSM podcast. We're into the festive season and I'm here with my lovely friend and co-host Gregor. How are you doing? I'm good. Hey Anna. It's crazy. It's December already. And I think for both of us, it has been such a big year. I really feel like having lived five years in one.

I know. I feel the exact same, like so much has happened. Kind of just like thinking back of where we were at the beginning of this year and where we are now. It's like things have changed a lot. Absolutely. But let's give a shout out to our listeners, old and new. If you're just joining us, this is the podcast where we talk all things kink and fetish and BDSM. Often we'll sit down with a kink curious, kink positive, kinky interviewee, or sometimes we go alone and discuss topics.

But yes, welcome. This is a podcast for absolutely everyone. Yes, we publish new episodes every Tuesday, so you can find us wherever you listen to podcasts too. And if you like what we're doing, please give us a review and rate our podcast. These ratings really help you a lot.

Maybe at this point, let's mention our sponsors. All this is possible thanks to our friends over at Fetish.com and TheFatApp. It's an online fetish and BDSM community. It's completely free to sign up. You can find all the links to that in our show notes.

And I really encourage you to check out that community because sometimes, especially if you live more remotely, it's really nice to connect with like-minded people. Absolutely. Yes. Go to the links in our show notes. You can find the link to our Instagram as well, which is at spankingxpod. Or is it podcast, Grover? Spankingxpodcast. And you can also find the links to the FetApp and fetish.com.

But I think let's today get into this episode we've been wanting to do for a very long time. And we've really struggled to find someone who, of course, is open and confident enough to come onto the podcast and talk about abuse in BDSM and how it can go wrong. I mean, most of our listeners, you already know that Anna and I worked for Fetish.com and the FedUp. So we kind of, we really talked to a lot of community members and we always got this idea of how welcoming, how open and how friendly BDSM

The BDSM community is. But as in every community, abuse happens. There's some bad eggs. Exactly. And a lot of times we talk about this all the time that in BDSM, a lot of trust is involved. And sometimes this trust is being taken advantage of. And we actually recorded an episode about BDSM and abuse or about abuse in BDSM way back, like a couple of years ago.

And in the end, the person we recorded for this interview didn't feel comfortable with us publishing the episode. So we didn't because we really respected that. It's really hard to talk about these things. And at the same time, we kind of stuck with this thought that we would really like to do an episode about this because it's a very important topic. It happens to quite a lot of people and we don't want them to feel alone. Right.

Absolutely. And I think it's really important to talk about the psychological abuse that can happen as well, when the lines are really blurred between the play aspect of kink and your personal life and where sub-dom dynamic may be taking place. It should be drawn out, there should be boundaries, there should be consent, there should be even a contract. But there are doms out there who do abuse this power and try to control their sub outside of

kink space as well. And that's what we'll be hearing about in this episode. Yes. A couple of weeks ago, Spank Your Next listener reached out to us on Instagram and told us that they actually had a story to tell. It's something that happened to them 15 years ago, so some time ago. So they had enough distance to be able to speak about it.

and we invited them on the show. Yeah, you're going to be hearing from Sarah, who, by the way, it's not their real name, and we won't be naming the person that is also in the situation as the Dom. She has a very powerful story, and she's an avid listener of the podcast. And I just wanted to do a little, you know, a soft trigger warning about psychological abuse in this episode. So definitely listen with discretion. And there may be some patterns that you notice in your dynamic that you're not comfortable with, because it

Abuse can take many forms. Yes, I think one of the takeaways we got from this conversation was really if something is happening in your relationship that makes you stop and think a little, really speak to somebody about it. Talk about it with your friends or with a psychologist, whoever. Just don't keep it for yourself. It's really worth being talked about. Let's start the episode and get into this meaty topic.

Sarah, welcome to Spank U Next. We're so glad to have you here with us. This is a real pleasure for us. Maybe to start out, or maybe even, this is a funny story actually, because Sarah reached out to us on Instagram. So how did you hear from Spank U Next? How did you hear from the podcast? I feel like I'm having a bit of a like revival or like...

re-falling in love with my kink identity and there was a lot of reasons why it has been like less in the forefront of my mind mostly to do with having many children but recently something in my spirit was like it's time we really miss this so yeah I've just been listening to a

a bunch of different kink podcasts and I think yours is the one that I like the best so far yay that's so cute thank you I'm sure you say that to all the podcasts to all the kinky podcasts out there yeah all the kinky podcasts that I'm doing interviews with

But yeah, like I just, I really appreciate the care and thoughtfulness and spontaneity and sensitivity that you guys approach all of these topics with. And so I was listening to one of the episodes and you had mentioned that you really wanted to do an episode on BDSM and abuse because it's such an important topic, but that you'd been having a difficult time finding people who are willing to talk about it understandably. I was like, well, I feel like I could talk about it. My experience feels like

long enough ago that it doesn't really impact me anymore. Of course, it shaped me, but I feel fine to talk about it. And so if that can like help other people or like make people feel less alone, then great. Thank you for reaching out. We super appreciate it because as you say, we've actually had a few people who have experienced abuse in psychological terms, in physical or a mixture of both.

Understandably, people are wary about coming on a podcast and talking about it, you know, being interviewed. So we really appreciate your message. And I think this is the time that we delve into it. So I think we'll get there. But how about you just walk us back a little bit? How did you come to kink? What's your experiences of the BDSM world? I came to kink pretty young still, like 19 or 20 as a young queer person.

But then looking back, like even my earliest sexual experiences in hindsight, I'm like, oh yeah, that was kind of kinky as well. So I think it's kind of always been there. But yeah, when I was young, just the like the community that I had, everyone was kinky. And so I got to come up in this really like fun and beautiful and supportive kinky queer community. And we would have like

bondage tea parties and like practice tying each other up. And, you know, it was very like playful. We were all young and like discovering ourselves and our sexuality and

the city that I was living in then was a bit smaller and then there's another city nearby that's larger and so there was like more kink events in that city so I would come for leather BDSM events build more community there was a lot of like crossover especially in the like queer kink community between the smaller city and the larger city so I just like met more people and be sort of mentored and

and brought in by a lot of like older leather queers. I mean they weren't that old but like in comparison to me being very young. Yeah of course. That sounds so cool because we talk to so many people who have to drive hours and hours to meet somebody and have a kinky experience or to get to a kinky party or club. So I think it's really amazing that you had this queer kinky community around you from such a young age. Yeah I feel really really lucky. So you're having

Having this exploratory phase in your 20s, it sounds super nice and wholesome and nourishing as well. If you don't mind now, we can talk about what happened in this situation that became very unhealthy. I met this person at a few different leather events.

And there was one conference slash like all weekend play party. We had a scene together there, but it was like with a bunch of other people. So I still didn't really know this person that well.

I think at the time we're identifying as genderqueer, maybe now they would identify as non-binary. Anyways, they use they, them pronouns. They were super babe and I was like, who's this person? And they were also like a pretty intense, heavy top, which was very like...

exciting to me. And then they like reached out. I can't remember exactly, but it was some kind of online thing because they lived in the larger city. I lived in the smaller city. So we weren't in the same place and just started flirting. And it was very like

whirlwind and looking back I'm like oh wow like I really took some pretty big risks because without really knowing them they were like I am really into you I want to see you I want to like fly you over to this city and like here's what I want you to wear and I'll pay for your plane ticket

Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah. So it's like Christine Grey, dare I say. Yeah. And did you do it? I did. But, you know, I so get this because especially like early 20s, this sensation of being chosen. Yeah. It's like really strong. Like, oh, my God, I have somebody that this person sees that maybe nobody else sees. Yeah. It was very heady. Also, like I was 23. Yeah.

And they were 20 years older than I was. Oh, wow. So there's a big age gap. Very big age gap. At first, it was good. It was really fucking hot and fun. I was having a nice time getting to engage in some of the most intense play that I'd ever done and in lots of ways. Looking back, there were definitely...

that the way that they engaged in their role as a top and a dom was not healthy.

But I was so young and like wasn't necessarily picking up on it. Or I noticed but was like, eh, I don't know. It's just you're a bit weird about this thing. Do you mind explaining like what you mean by that? Like if there's like specific things that you remember? One thing that I remember was that at one point we went away to a cabin and then we had just arrived and I was just like helping bring everything into the cabin.

And I brought their bag in.

And they got really upset with me and were like, you are like taking my top position by carrying this bag and you're disrespecting me by doing that. Oh, wow. So at the time I was like, definitely that's weird, but just let it go. The thing that sort of started to break things for me was

was the incident that happened where I was living in the smaller city. And so mostly I would go to the larger city to visit them because they had a place on their own. I lived with roommates, so it wasn't very conducive to play. Yeah, wild play. It was New Year's and they wanted me to come visit, but I was working. It would have been a lot of travel in a very short period of time.

And I was also sick. And so I was like, I just don't want to. Like, I'm tired. Like, I just, I don't have it in me, you know. They threatened to end the relationship. In hindsight, I'm like, fucking yeah, I should have gotten out of there. But at the time, I was like in love with this person and like very wrapped up in the relationship and didn't want it to end. And also made all of these statements about like,

If you don't come, this means that you don't love me and you're not committed and like you're not being a good sub and like blah, blah, blah. So you being available at certain times that you're having to visit, was that ever part of the dumps up play or was that kind of? I wasn't really clocking it as such because our lives were definitely like impacted by work schedules and stuff like that.

There had been times before where it was like a short turnaround time and they'd wanted me to come. But I think mostly in the past I'd felt okay about it. But this time I had said no. And then they went into this whole thing about like what all of this meant and that if I refused, this was over, right?

This went on for a while, like messaging back and forth. And eventually I was like, okay, fine, I will come. And at that point, because of the geography of where we live, it's not that easy to travel. And so I had to pay like $100 to get a cab to like catch the last train. It was very dramatic. Yeah.

And I'm like a mess. I'm like sick, tired, finished working and like emotionally just like a wreck. And then they went radio silent for like four hours while I was in transit. And so I was like sobbing, not knowing like, am I still in this relationship? Is it over? And I'm making this huge trip and like it's already done.

done and I've lost this person and then they also when we had been talking had made some comment and I can't remember the like specifics of it at this point but it was something about like if you come you are gonna have to kneel on the doormat to be punished like you can't you can't enter my home without being punished for what you've done like something like that

Eventually, right before I arrived, they started messaging again and then were just acted like everything was normal. Totally gaslighting me basically about this whole situation.

Came and picked me up. We went and, like, hung out with their friends for a bit. And I was just, like, a shell at that point. Like, I couldn't really engage with anyone. I was, like, trying to be normal, but I was just, like, so fucked up. Obviously, no, after everything kind of... After everything that happened emotionally, but then also traveling and working before, like... Yeah. And on New Year's Eve. Yeah. And so then eventually...

We like dropped their friends off and went to their house. And like I just froze when I got to their doormat because of what they had said. And was like, I can't move. Like I can't come in. And then they were like nice to me. And were like, oh, it's fine. Like I think this is like common behavior with people who are abusive where they will

act in really terrible ways and then act as if everything's fine. 100%. It's like clouding your judgment as well. It's like clouding what's real and what's not and making you doubt yourself rather than them. Totally. Something like broke in me when that happened, but it took a while to end the relationship after that.

That was January, and I think I didn't fully get out until May. Well, at least you did. Yeah. But yeah, there was a lot of gaslighting and convincing me to stay. And at one point, they came to the city where I was living, and I was trying to end the relationship, and they were trying to convince me not to.

It's so long ago, so I can't remember the specifics of how exactly this happened. But I remember being in my nightgown barefoot and they somehow got me into their car and were driving me. I don't know where. Super unsafe because I was essentially like naked. In some ways, I think that the only reason that I was able to like fully get out was because I had this big trip planned.

planned. That was planned like before we ever started getting together. And I think in some ways I was able to be like, well, I'm going on this trip. Like, let's check in when I'm back and was able to leave and then not re-engage when I came back. During that time, especially when you realized this is really not for me.

Did you continue to engage in kink? And were they still really strongly dom and sort of in that controlling space? Definitely. And how was that for you? It's tricky because...

Like parts of it were still hot and fun. So maybe that was kind of confusing in a way. Totally confusing. Yeah. BDSM is such can be such an incredible transformative and sometimes healing space, but it is incredibly vulnerable. And so the opportunities for people who are abusive or unhealthy in the ways that they are engaging with BDSM are just like so big.

So I think that that is also part of what can be really confusing, especially when you're young and new to the scene and enjoy submission in contexts where it's healthy. But then it can be really tricky to be like, is this a good thing or not? Like,

I enjoy parts of this, but I don't want to feel like my actual life is controlled or that I don't have the ability to make decisions for myself.

Sounds like the lines between the play and the life got really blurred. You know, when we talk about healthy being a femme, it's like you need to know exactly what you're playing with and what's real life. And it seems like this person really overstepped this dynamic. And unfortunately, after I left that relationship, then I heard from a bunch of other people that I was not the first femme that they had done this to.

and that there was a pattern of behavior. That was really hard because there were other people in the kink community who like knew about this person and like didn't say anything. It may not have made a difference. I was very like young and caught up in this relationship. But I certainly now I am like, God, like,

If I know something about someone, I'm going to tell other people. How was that back then? Did that change your connection to your relationship to your community or your relationship to BDSM?

I lost trust in some of the people. And I think it made me feel like more committed to protecting people and like looking out for each other. It didn't turn me off of BDSM, but it definitely made me very cautious. And so I went on this big trip, traveled, moved to another city, you know, was like dating people, but not anything serious. And

And then this person, who's now my partner, messaged me at one point. And it was a very casual message, but just like, hey, do you want to hook up? And I was like, sure.

But I was extremely boundaried in that engagement and was basically like, we can have sex twice a month and that is it. And there is no like emotional involvement and we're not talking outside of my house. And like I was, I had huge walls of boundaries up.

Because I was super scared of getting into something too fast and having something like that happen again. But the happy ending is that we like laid the emotional groundwork of our relationship really slowly. Now we've been together for 15 years. Amazing. Wow. That's a success story. It's got a nice ending in the end. But I think it's a really important lesson in the different ways of

Because I think when we think about abuse, it's like in BDSM particularly, you know, there's a lot of stigma around it because people are like, wow, it's men hitting women. Of course there's abuse. It's just like not the correct assessment of consent in these situations. Yeah. But that these like more insidious ways of mind control while you're already in a power exchange are really harmful. They're actually harmful. You know, what people think outside is bad.

is like wrong because it's like that's consensual but yeah what you're talking about is super important topic and I don't think we talk about it enough totally and I feel like obviously all kinds of abuse are incredibly harmful but I think sometimes the damage that like psychological abuse can do is a bit overlooked and I think it can have such long-lasting impacts on your

your well-being and your sense of safety and your sense of like who you are and totally because I think in so so many cases it really affects how you have relationships after an incident like that of course there's a hundred different options but I think there's two big pools like either people have very strong boundaries and really want to keep people at a distance but then there's this other group of people who just goes from one relationship to another relationship just trying to kind of

fix the mess they feel they made in the last relationship. Because I think until you get to this point where you see, oh, this wasn't actually my fault. Yeah.

That's such a difficult journey. Yeah. People can like internalize it and then be craving some partnership that is safe and loving. But if you're not able to do your own healing and get to a point of feeling your own like self-worth, that's really tricky to cultivate.

If you were talking to someone who was in a similar situation now, any advice that you'd give them? Anything to watch out for that you kind of knew but you carried on anyway?

I think that any time there is controls being put on your personal life, that feels like a flag to me. Like if someone is limiting who you can see or your access to family or friends or community, monitoring your phone, making demands of you that impacts your job or life.

Those feel like worrying behaviors, controlling behavior in general. Yes, that can absolutely be part of BDSM in play, but I think there need to be like really clear containers around where and how that happens and what you're okay with and what you're not okay with. And, you know, I think that that is...

a very nuanced conversation in the context of like 24-7 dynamics. But that's never been something that I experienced or wanted to. And I believe that it's possible to do that in a healthy way. But I think even in those relationships, like the dom or top wouldn't ask you to do something that was going to like compromise your position at work or your ability to like, like

Like they wouldn't make demands of you that were going to be really detrimental to you and your personhood. Yeah. And also you would agree on it before. You would agree on the boundaries and you would agree to have your freedom taken away. You know, that's actually like one of the interesting things about BDSM is that it may look like someone's in a controlling relationship, but actually they've agreed to all of this. That's the point is like you actually should be controlling BDSM.

because you're like, this is what I'm asking for. The idea is kind of we look out for each other. I look out for myself, but I also have your well-being in mind. And so we talk what we're going to do, when we're going to do it, etc. And if it's really a 24 power exchange, then there is, of course, a lot of responsibility with the top because the top has to look out for the other person. And there has to be like some communication once that's no longer the case. But in general, the top has to look out for the other person. Absolutely. Absolutely.

At the time when you were starting to think, okay, I'm actually, this is hard on me. I'm not feeling like myself. I'm feeling limited. I'm feeling like really confused and maybe a bit scared. Did you have somebody to talk with or was there just a moment when you figured out for yourself that this has to stop? Yeah, there were definitely some friends that I was talking to about it. There were some moments where it felt a little bit hard.

hard because I had been so excited about this person and so it can feel a bit embarrassing to be like actually this wasn't what I thought it was and I think that's something that I would say to survivors also is like this isn't your fault like don't blame yourself people

people who engage in abusive behavior are very skilled at doing what they're doing and manipulating you and the like abusive behavior and then like love bombing and all of these kind of dynamics are really like calculated and crafted to manipulate you and get you into the

position that they want you to be in? Because in their world, they are the victim. You know, because in their world, it's like you're the bad one because you're letting them alone and you're not coming when they need you. And

It's a really dangerous mind game. Absolutely. You're not supporting them. You're like embarrassing them in public. Especially this age gap as well. When you're in your early 20s, God, like the risky things that I did. Obviously, you're in a different place than someone 20 years older who is more, not wiser, but you know, has more knowledge, more experience. More experienced, yeah. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. And thank you for sharing your experience because I'm...

I guarantee there'll be people that are listening who've had bad experiences too. Yeah. It's unfortunate given how amazing and wonderful kink and BDSM can be, but this is definitely something that happens. And I really appreciate you guys wanting to do an episode about it and talk about it because I think it's really important. Really. Thank you so much for coming on and talking about this because I can imagine that it's really, really hard.

You know, Anna and I, we always say one of the coolest aspects of BDSM is the community aspect. Yeah. That usually you talk to people and they're the nicest, most loving, most tolerant people out there. A lot of times I think kind of, wow, the BDSM community is so much more tolerant than, for instance, the gay community, which can be super toxic. Yeah. And then...

when something like this happens in a community that you feel like you can really trust and where you feel like really at home, it's a kind of wow, it really hits you hard. Yeah, I'm grateful that it's been long enough and I've like healed enough that it doesn't feel too difficult to talk about. And it's really brave coming on a podcast, you know, it's not like just writing it. It's you got to talk about it. It's going to go out. So like, thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate it.

The episode will go out soon and when it does, you'll be the first to know. And maybe if anyone writes in with the same experience as we will share it with you. Have an amazing day. You're starting it. You're starting it. We're ending ours. Yes. But we'll keep in touch and I think it will make for a really, really important episode. Amazing. Thank you so much. It was really lovely. Thank you so much for coming on. Really, thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe to Spanky Next on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also follow us on Instagram at Spanky Next Podcast. If you'd like to connect with people who share your kinks, sign up to Fetish.com for free or download the Fet app from Google Play Store and the App Store now.

And for any one of you who is looking to deepen their knowledge of kink, head to the BDSM training school on Fetish.com and enroll in a course now. And last but not least, shout out to our producer, Biddy Cragen, our kinky team, and everyone who makes this podcast possible.