Pet play & trauma-informed BDSM
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Hello, hello, dear Spanky Next listeners. I'm one of your hosts, Anna. Hey, and I'm Gregor. Spanky Next is the podcast where we talk about all things fetish and BDSM. And this week, we've got something special for you.

We've been recording these episodes for a couple of years now, if I'm not mistaken, Gregor, and there's so many new listeners that we get each month that we want to encourage you to go back and listen to the episodes that we think are really special, that are important at a certain time in the year. So we're going to be reposting old episodes for you to listen to alongside our newer episodes that come out twice a month.

Exactly. These episodes are hand-selected by the two of us and this week's episode is one that we think you should really listen to. So without further ado, let's get into the episode and please enjoy an older episode of Spank You Next. People who know nothing about it might look at people wearing dog masks or cat ears and think, oh, that's so weird. Why are you doing that?

But I would just say to those people, try it to see how it feels because I think it's a really great way to shed the trappings of humanity for a while and to feel a bit silly and have some fun with it. And ultimately, people that I've shared this kink with, they begin to feel a lot more comfortable in their own skin.

Hello and welcome back to Spank You Next, a fetish and BDSM podcast. We're your hosts, Anna and Gregor, and you're listening to the seventh episode and our final episode of season one. How are you, Gregor? You have COVID. I have COVID. Sad.

You know, I was almost sure that I would never get it and I was actually in Portugal last weekend and on my last day I just, you know, it felt like a really bad cold. Not feeling well and so I went home and when I was home I thought, okay, let's just do a test just to be sure.

And, oh my God, it was full COVID. So, yeah, I'm at home right now. A clear line. A clear red line. I mean, you've avoided it well. I've had it twice. And you might remember if you've listened to, I think it was episode four, we had to do it remotely as well, like we are now because I had COVID. And that's just the world we live in. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's actually nice. I'm having kind of, I built a small home studio. I hope you can hear me clearly, kind of have lots of cushions and blankets all around me.

You're in your pyjamas. The professionalism is really there. I'm literally, I'm way better now. I really am. As you know, I'm vaccinated. So I had two days of headache and a bit of a cold. And that was basically it. And now I have to isolate at home. And I'm reading. I'm reading loads of books.

That's good. You're not just watching Netflix and being a bum. No, no. That's what I did. Although the new season of Killing Eve is out and I'm a real big fan. Oh yeah, I heard that. I actually watched Succession when I had COVID and it's so good. But now I just have this tainted memory of how bad I felt because this was pre-vaccine. Oh my God. It brings back some bad memories.

Yeah. Also, this is a momentous day for me because I've been vegan for a month as a challenge. And today was my first time I could eat. I am a meat eater, but also cheese. And I really am very happy. Sorry to say. I'm going to be more vegan. I cook more vegan, but I'm loving having the dairy back in my life. So tell us why. Why have you been vegan for a month? So I have a friend, Dave, shout out. He listens to the podcast.

He is vegan but still loves meat, but he's way more ethical than you or I. And for every person that goes vegan for a month, he gets one meal that has meat in it. And, you know, it may not have so much logic, but that's a good logic for me. So I thought for him to have a steak at the end of it or fried chicken, I would go vegan for a month. I really get your friend because I was a vegetarian for five years and

And and I really love meat. And I have friends who are vegetarian and they say, I never liked meat. I never really ate a lot. And I was always like, OK, so for you, it's easy. And for me, it's so hard. That's why I think it's even more ethical if you actually love it and give it up, because if you just don't like it, like it's a nice byproduct that it's ethical, but you you just don't like it as well.

Some of my friends will tell you that I have been a bit miserable at times, but I think on the whole, smashed it. Yeah, you did it. You can be really proud of yourself.

I kept coming into our office and we usually just have vegan or veggie food, but they kept having barbecues. Yeah, yeah. Just sausages everywhere. And this never usually happens. Because this is, because Anna and I, we live in Barcelona and in Catalonia, February is the month they are having loads of barbecues. I don't know why kind of we kind of more,

northern Europeans. We have barbecues in summer, but here they have loads of barbecues in February. Yeah, I'm not going to go vegan in February again. I just keep walking into barbecues everywhere. Okay, so anyway, we're getting sidetracked. We said this is the last episode of season one. And this is because, you know, the original intention of the podcast was to interview the educators of the BDSM training school from fetish.com

And we've done that. Today is the last episode with Divine Theratrix. She's one of the educators. And now Anne and I, we want to take some time of rethink the concept of the podcast, think about who we want to have on, who we want to talk to, and what topics we want to discuss. But, you know, don't worry, avid listeners, we will be back.

We've already done a couple of interviews for season two. It's all in the pipeline and we'll probably only take a few weeks off and be back around mid-April with our first episode.

So keep your ears peeled. But in the meantime, let's introduce Divine Theoretics and her work. Yeah. So today's all about pet play. Pet play. And this is something I don't know. We already spoke about it a lot. I'm really into puppy play. I kind of especially the masks are so adorable. You love it. I love it. All day. I have to say, I think I'm really more into the aesthetics of it. Maybe also the role play aspect.

But as with a lot in BDSM, there's a whole spectrum. You know, there's some people who just like to put on masks, the harnesses. There's also mittens and other people, they are more into the role play. And then there's people who are almost into a 24-7 dynamic when it comes to be a real dog.

Yeah, and as we talk about in the episode, I remember when I was a teenager and I watched a documentary about pet play and it really was more 24-7 lifestyle. So it was men who lived in cages, they pooed outside, they drank from a dog bowl.

And while some people are into that, a lot of it is more the playful aspect and that's Divine Theoretic's thing. She works with the psychological aspect of play and just freeing yourself from the shackles of humanity for a session can be very liberating. Yes, exactly. I think she started out more in the reins of therapy and then introduced BDSM into her work and now she is a risk-informed BDSM instructor.

And she works a lot with this idea of play, you know, getting rid of the limitations of society and see what happens if you just engage in the moment. Absolutely. And even you can tell the little word play in her name, Theratrix, dominatrix, therapist, love it.

She really has a handle on conscious kink and this is what we get into in the episode. Mental health and BDSM, how play can be very beneficial for your mental health as well as your physical well-being and all that comes with it. And I think she can explain much better than we can. So how about we get her in here? Yes, let's bring in.

Divine Theoretics, welcome to the pod. We're super happy to have you on season one of a soon-to-be very famous Fetish and BDSM podcast. Let's first of all talk about you. Tell us a little bit about yourself as a conscious kink BDSM practitioner. Yeah, well, it's an interesting journey in a way, I guess. It's kind of been an extension of a lifestyle I started over a decade ago, which

where I was going to a lot of sex parties and then fetish clubs, which I migrated into and I found, oh, these are more my people. And becoming a professional was a natural progression from there because what had been my secret life, I wanted it to become my real life. There was this double life going on where I had...

respectable, I'm putting that in air quotes, respectable job. Yeah, you were in law, right? It was quite a journey from what kind of law did you practice to BDSM. And how long did it take you kind of to go from one thing to doing completely the other thing? Well, yeah, I was an employment lawyer in terms of how long it took me to change my career because I was building on a lot of experience in my personal life.

the technical transition, which was essentially just building a viable business, it was just a matter of months really. I found a mentor who was practicing BDSM in a way that inspired me a lot. It was coming at it from the perspective of Jungian psychology, so as a means of integrating the shadow psyche.

And at that moment, when I read a leaflet of his, it just clicked. And I thought, wow, there's someone actually doing this in the way that I really want to do it. And they're running a business. Wow, maybe I could do that and I could actually do the job that I really want to do. So, yeah, it was pretty quick from that point, really. Once I make up my mind, I'm quite rapid in putting things into motion.

Wow. Because I think it's really great that you achieved it because when you think of it, I guess that there's a lot of people who live this kind of double life, you know, because BDSM is still really stigmatized and loads of people just can't really talk openly about it. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I was...

In social circles with a lot of people that were practicing BDSM and outsiders might think, oh, they're so weird. But to me, they were the sanest people in the world. They weren't hiding away from things that other people are ashamed of. They were more integrated than other humans I'd met, you know, kind of normal, again, air quotes, clubs or events.

What was the initial draw to BDSM in your personal life and then what made you feel this is something that I actually think you need to train in to be an educator because obviously it is something that does come with risks. Yeah I think a lot of it for me was to do with me being a person that thinks a lot and

dare I say, an over-thinker, you know, in my head a lot. You know, I spend about 80% of my life in my head.

Sometimes that would block me from receiving physical pleasure because I'd be thinking about things. And then when I discovered BDSM, again, it was one of these aha moments, it clicked. And I thought, ah, here is a way to get out of the head and into the body. Even if you go through a door in the head, it gradually leads its way through to a place where your body feels more open to receive pleasure. And I just thought that was a wonderful thing.

And at the time when I discovered that there were people practicing BDSM in a way that was integrating some Jungian psychology, I was working as a talking therapist.

Because I like to help people, so I've always been very interested in psychology. And then I just began to see how the two could link up in some way. I just thought, wow, maybe this is another vehicle for helping people actually work with their own psychology. Because humans are very complex animals and...

one way into the psyche could work for a person and it wouldn't work for someone else and I think that it's great that we can all try out different ways of finding out what makes us tick and BDSM was one of those ways that I thought oh that's that's actually really interesting and I'd love to know how to do that because I think I can help people with it

This is actually something I read that a lot from you that we are still all animals in the end and on the BDSM training school on fetish.com you're doing this introduction course to pet play so maybe you want to explain us a little bit what this course is about? Yeah pet play for me I find it so fun and

Like a lot of kinks, it's one of those activities that people who know nothing about it might look at people wearing dog masks or cat ears and think, oh, that's so weird. Why are you doing that? But I would just say to those people, try it to see how it feels, because I think it's a really great way to shed the trappings of humanity for a while and to...

feel a bit silly and have some fun with it and ultimately people that I've shared this kink with they begin to feel a lot more comfortable in their own skin

I think actually for some people they might not even know what pet play is. So could you talk us through a little bit what it means to, you know, reach the state of primal consciousness you talk about and like you say, shedding the humanity for a while. Yeah, so I'll start off with pet play because I do distinguish that a little from primal play. Pet play, it tends to be within the container of a dominant and submissive dynamic.

So one person who will be the human will be the owner or the master, the mistress, the person who's in the top or the dominant role. And then the other person will be in the bottom or submissive role and they will be the pet. And that means taking on the mannerisms of any creature that they wish to role play. So it's...

a game where we use our imagination and we get to encounter other aspects of ourselves and act in ways that we wouldn't usually act and the course that I've done for fetish.com it will give you everything you need to learn about pet play how to do it where to do it why you would want to do it so if you don't know anything about it at all like I said it will give you

comprehensive overview I've got some great interviews on there with the performers and I think when you hear from them about their emotional experiences of it and why they love it that is probably way more convincing than I could ever be as an instructor I just think it's really beautiful when you get to see how obviously fulfilling and nurturing it is for them

Yeah, I think it's really interesting because Anne and I, we talked before because, of course, puppy plays also a huge part of gay culture. And I don't know, I said that for a lot of times we see these puppies and we see them kind of from a fetish aspect. You know, we see the masks and then we build up some sexual fantasy about

But what I learned from your course and actually hearing you and your performers talk, it's much more about the play aspect of it and sex is not necessarily involved. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's relatively common in the BDSM community in that sex does not have to form part of the interactions.

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But those two things don't necessarily have to go together. And indeed, I've been to many play parties where sex, first of all, wasn't even permitted in the space. Some people feel safer practicing their kink or playing with each other if they know that that boundary is there. And I actually think that

Setting up that kind of container, especially if it's your first time playing with a particular kink, can be really helpful. For example, if I am sessioning with a new client and we're going to do some primal play, which is different to pet play, and I can explain that in a moment if you like, a boundary that I will often agree with them is to say, OK, it doesn't matter how close I come to you, I'm not going to touch you.

And then they immediately drop into this feeling of safety of, well, I can play and I can move around and I don't have to worry that this other animal is going to try and physically interact with me by touching me. And I think it's the same with sex. If someone wants to indulge in some spanking or some pet play, if they know that the other person isn't going to try and interact with them sexually, they can let themselves go a little bit more.

So if you would explain it to a real outsider, what is it that draws people to BDSM if it's not the sex part?

So something that I say is that I think what people crave more than orgasms are intense emotional experiences and I think that's what it comes down to in a really well-made BDSM scene we could experience a really magnificent emotional arc from nervousness to excitement to relief to soothing and what a wonderful gift to give someone

Yeah, I do agree there that people do always conflate the two, specifically people that are vanilla or outside the community. So it's interesting to hear you talk about kind of play that's not sexual. And the idea that people have that BDSM is always this dark practice in dungeons and it's really serious. And I like the way you said you can actually just have a bit of fun with the people that you're playing with.

Yeah, I'd really like to reframe sex and BDSM as just a way that humans play, you know, almost like an extension of play.

This is just the way that human animals play. We're pretty complex. We've devised contraptions and items for everything that we do in life, from pushing a baby around in a pram to putting lipstick on or clothing. We're basically seven billion chimps on a planet and we've just put ourselves in different outfits and given ourselves jobs. And it's just crazy how complex we've made everything and removed ourselves so far from the animal kingdom of which we are a part.

So, going back, it would actually be really helpful if you did help us distinguish between primal and pet play, because I'm kind of in my head thinking it's the same thing, but you seem to think no. Yeah, and with most things in BDSM, I think everyone can come at it from a different angle or define it in different ways. But for me, the pet play involves this dominant submissive, so like a power dynamic, which

And there are very defined roles and protocols. So an owner and a pet, for example, one human animal and one other type of animal. Whereas if I share primal play within a session, that will be a role play where myself and my client are equals in the space.

And the typical rules that I will agree to create a container for that to happen will be we are not going to use words, so not human verbal communication, so it cuts out that filter of communication straight away. And we will interact with each other and the space as a sensory being, so as a primal being, as an animal.

And that might mean going around on all fours and touching things, smelling things, vocalising our feelings towards each other without the filter of language. So it could be a grrr or a... I will encourage my clients to think of, you know, how would you express that emotion with a sound? If you can't use your words, how are you going to let me know how you're feeling? It's about...

communicating with our bodies rather than all of the cognitive parts that humans can't put so much value on so it's really great for people to build confidence in terms of tuning into you know how does my body feel does my body want to be closer to this other animal body or does it want to be further away and how am I going to communicate that to them

Do you think it takes a specific type of person that can engage in this play? Because I'm thinking about myself in that I think I would feel really self-conscious. Like whenever I've done drama lessons and it's improv of an animal, I find it really hard to not have that self-consciousness that I feel a bit silly. I guess for you, it's actually working through that shame and silliness to find that animal part of you.

Yeah, absolutely. I hear the same thing time and time again. After the event, it will be feedback along the lines of, oh, I felt a bit silly to begin with, but then afterwards I felt so free. When we have this notion of, well, I look silly, it's almost like we are, I don't know, let's just...

Imagine we have a piece of rope that's tied around our ankle and the other end is tied around a tree. So that is the length that we can walk around in a circle. And the concept of silliness will always keep us at that length. And then when we realise that actually we could be a bit silly and nothing bad happens to us, we can snap that rope and we can go even further.

Yeah, I think you've already touched on this idea before a bit. But would you say if you experience something or a certain state of mind in a BDSM scenario, that this also helps you in your day to day life as a person?

Yeah, I think so. Building on what I was saying with the concept of having a piece of rope tied around an ankle and then the other end tied around the tree, imagine that as being a neurological pathway. So, you know, a pathway of experience in our brain, which we have travelled many, many times. We know, well, I can go from A to B on this way and then I kind of feel safe again.

And then let's just say we have a BDSM session and we experience something that maybe didn't feel completely safe within that length of rope, but we do it anyway and then it opens up a whole new realm so it can create new neural pathways in the brain. I was also thinking, is there a difference between in-session pet play and lifestyle pet play? Because have you ever seen the Channel 4 documentary about puppies? I haven't actually, but I've heard very good things about it. LAUGHTER

Yeah, it's really good. I highly recommend it. But this is often people that are puppies or have adopted a pet persona almost permanently. And they kind of live in dog baskets and, you know, poo outside like a dog. So I guess there's a distinction, right? There's a spectrum of pet play, primal play. And is yours mostly kept in session, contained?

Yeah, another one of the great things about kink is that there's no right or wrong. There's just what works and what doesn't work. And some people prefer to compartmentalise and others have found a lifestyle that works so well for them, they want to do it all the time. And I think that's wonderful. And, you know, it would be great if we could all find ways of living in which we felt completely comfortable. For me, the pet play, it does tend to be in sessions.

In terms of my own lifestyle, I'm not really one for too many rules myself or protocols when I'm at home. You will quite often hear me communicating in a way that really isn't human. I find it a really nice way of just communicating, like grumbling or groaning. So, you know, it does...

creep into my personal life as well, even if it isn't within a very obvious formal container. Just thinking of it, because pet play is obviously a form of role play in a way, so you're taking on a role that's not your usual self, but would you say that maybe people are even more their true selves in a play scenario?

Yeah, I like to think of a pet play scenario as giving someone an opportunity to express themselves in an unfiltered way. So we could say that it creates a presentation of more of their true self.

Or perhaps it's just another aspect of themselves, one that they do not fully express when they are interacting in the human or mundane world where they have to use their words and they might not be expressing all of their emotions.

So, you know, if someone is at work, for example, they might feel very uncomfortable during a particular conversation. They might feel worried. They might feel self-conscious. They might feel stressed, but they won't show any of that because they're keeping up the appearances of I'm a capable, competent human and I'm doing my job and I can handle this.

Whereas in the animal space, as a pet, if they felt like that, they could whimper, they could show with their body, they could roll over. And that would be a pure undiluted expression of their emotional state at the time.

Yeah, this is something kind of watching your course, I saw kind of how really in the moment your guests, because you have two guests in the course and they show two pet play scenarios and they were kind of really in the moment. And how do you, is this something people already achieve when they try it the first time? Is this kind of, I don't know, is this a question of motivation or personality or does it just take time? Yeah, does it take a few goes at it before you can really be your true pet self?

Well, perhaps it is in the skill of the handler as well with newbies because every time I have conducted a pet play session with someone who is completely new to it, they've really got into it. And even though they felt self-conscious or nervous about starting, once I started playing with them, because I've had a lot of dogs and cats in my life as well and I know how to play with animals. How many dogs and cats do you have?

I just have one cat at the moment, but yeah, I've always been surrounded by animals. And I think it shows. I've had clients say to me, oh, I can tell that you know how to play with animals. Well, that's good for your line of work, right? Yeah, indeed.

Something Anne and I were also talking before is because you just mentioned that a lot of times it depends on the handler. And we thought especially kind of thinking of BDSM and trauma and BDSM and mental health.

I think a lot of times we see kind of the top part as somebody who's really kind of stable and knows what they're doing and know what they want and the submissive part as somebody who needs guidance. How do you see it? Is it also that sometimes it's, you know, it can be therapeutic in a way that it benefits the top and the bottom? Yeah, I like to practice BDSM in such a way that it's a co-creation.

I talk to anyone that I session with a lot before we actually decide to session because I want to ensure that they're taking responsibility for themselves. And this is why I've rejected the label of dominatrix over the years, because I think that there is a perception that we all are dominatrix. You have all the control. You have all the responsibility. I'm just going to show up and you tell me what to do. And I,

I'm just like, uh-uh, no way. We're going to co-create this. We both have responsibility for ourselves within this space and we're going to negotiate this. And, you know, we each give each other a gift. You know, I like to think that I create a space and I facilitate the experience for another person. And I would expect them to be active in any scene in that they have an awareness of what their boundaries are and...

And that they aren't going to cross them because otherwise I won't feel safe. Exactly. I think that's really what people don't understand is that tops have boundaries and limits too. And the consent goes both ways. Sometimes it's actually more difficult for a top because you have so much responsibility for a submissive.

Yeah, and I think it's also a really good point because at Fetish.com we are BDSM and fetish dating website and a lot of times people just come on there and they think I'm a dominant, do what I want or I'm a submissive, please use me and I think kind of what you're saying is that the communication and speaking before the session is actually a really crucial part.

Yes, absolutely. Speaking before a session is crucial for both parties to see if there is an alignment of interests because...

The words that we use, oh, I'm a dominant or I'm a submissive, that doesn't tell the full story because we might have completely different understandings of what those words mean and what we want from an interaction. And I think it's really important to dig into people's motivations, understand where they are and where they want to be, and for me to be able to gauge whether or not I can help them achieve that.

Is this what you refer to when you speak about conscious kink? Exactly that, yeah. For me, the conscious aspect comes from having an awareness of

why they want to do something and this is really just my personal style I'm a thinker like I said before I've always had a huge thirst for knowledge and understanding I just want to know everything and I want to understand it all and therefore I want to work with people that are have similar drives that you know they want to understand themselves a bit better that's what I can get on board with

Yeah, I really actually also really like your name, Divine Theratrix, which is a mash-up between dominatrix and therapist, right? I know you have said that you're not a therapist and you want to make that clear, but how did that concept of combining the idea of being a therapist and dominatrix together come about? When I was seriously considering changing my career, I was working in my spare time as a talking therapist,

and I think there was a perception around dominatrix that they were in control and on the other hand as a therapist it's the client that's in control and neither one of those really fit how I wanted to be a helper because I think that both parties within that container need to bring something to it and both take responsibility so I thought well

okay, you know, can I create a container where there's joint agency and whatever transpires as a co-creation rather than just one party shouldering all of the responsibility? You know, it's not a question of, well, one of you has the answers and you're going to give them to me, you know, whether that be the client in a therapeutic relationship, which is generally how most practitioners work from the humanistic perspective.

And so I just thought, you know, maybe there's some kind of hybrid by mashing up those two terms. And then I actually saw a sketch, a cartoon sketch. And I can't remember where I found that. But the picture was of a man laying on a couch. So in like a psychodynamic setup where they're facing away from the therapist. And the therapist was a woman wearing thigh high boots and fishnet stockings. And on her door it said, there it is.

And I just thought, wow, that's brilliant. Was this a children's cartoon or adults? Was that for children? I saw it now, yeah, but I just thought, that's brilliant. And then I just thought, yeah, I'm going to have that. And I'm really glad that you like it. That's actually really good, yeah. No, I think it's great. I really also, we do talk a lot about how BDSM can be used to not just overcome trauma, but actually confront it.

Even though I know a lot of people in the vanilla world might see BDSM as inflicting trauma because they don't really understand the practices. So as you say, you're sort of a trauma-informed counsellor. Is that how you would define yourself?

Yeah, I have been trained in identifying trauma and how to hold space for someone when their nervous system is activated because that's essentially what a trauma response is. It's when our nervous system has been so overwhelmed by an experience that we go into either hyper arousal or hypo arousal. So being trauma informed as a practitioner means that I can...

help a client regulate themselves. So if I think that they're having a trauma response, I can guide them through the use of what I call somatic resources, which are the body's own resources to then bring themselves back into a regulated state where they're then able to make intelligent decisions again, because, you know, trauma just kind of fries our circuits. We either want to fight it, run away from it, submit to it and, you know,

Not in any of those spaces are we equipped to decide as an adult what we're going to do. So in what ways can BDSM be used to work through trauma? Yeah, it's a very individual thing. And the trauma aspect is not something that I market specifically because I don't want to be seen as a go-to person to trauma.

explore trauma I think it's more of a side effect or a benefit that someone who comes to me might identify for themselves maybe I could think of an example let's just say someone in their childhood was shamed for crying and they never had a space to to cry and

We might have a role play in a session where I always take on a mother role and they then get to have the experience that they didn't have as a child. And that's purely decided by them. It's not something that's directed by me. They come to me with an awareness of, you know, I feel like I really need to go to this place and to have that emotional release. So that's one angle. If we're looking at BDSM as a tool to...

explore trauma we can have cathartic experiences and going back to the point where i was talking about sorry that's my cat just meowing nice to meet her it's very on theme so it's all good yeah um yeah we can rewire our brains because let's just say we have

been traumatized at a particular point then we have that pathway already set up in our brain where it's almost like the experience is imprinted onto us and it's not stamped on with a date it's not like our body or our nervous system knows oh yeah that happened 15 20 years ago whenever something activates our nervous system in a similar way it's like it's happening now

And so if we know that and we have an awareness of what tends to activate us, we can work on encountering new experiences that set up positive reference points so that eventually if we keep setting up those positive reference points of experiences that were not traumatic,

we can create enough of those to outweigh the old programming, so the old traumatic programming which tells us that I'm always going to be scared, I've always got to run away, I can't do this, I have to hide. I think it's a means of re-educating our systems in a way. So basically in your sessions you create a safe space where these experiences can happen? Yes, exactly.

What about aftercare? Because we talk a lot about aftercare on Fetish and how important it is and I'm sure not everyone will know what aftercare is or even practice it and how important it is. So do you also make time in sessions if you feel you need for aftercare? Yes, it's an integral part of any session. I always think that

an experience to be a complete experience needs a beginning, a middle and an end. And so with a BDSM session, the beginning part will be a sit down orientation chat, if you will, just recapping over, well, you know, we spoke about X, Y and Z. And, you know, here's the space. Let's run through what it might look like, how it might pan out. Are you still OK with that? And then we have the BDSM structures. And then after that, there'll be some time to

come back into normal state of consciousness because during the BDSM part, essentially it's taking someone through altered states. It's affecting their emotional state. But then after that, they still need to go back out into the world.

and go about their business. And so to have a very intense session and then just say, okay, bye, that's done now. I think that would be very irresponsible and careless. And so allowing someone some time to be quiet and to be soothed and, you know, have a warm drink and we have a debrief chat as well. I think that's a really important part of the whole process.

Yeah, I like what you just said that kind of before the session even starts, you sit down and talk about what is going to happen more or less on the day. And this is a point when it's still okay to say, I'm not in the mood for that or that today. Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't rely on a previous phone call or an email exchange because I

people's moods and their consent is dynamic and it moves from moment to moment and I always want to understand what kind of emotional state someone is in and

how they're feeling, how they want to feel and whether or not they are happy to go ahead with a certain activity. And I wouldn't assume that just because they've agreed to a particular activity prior to a session that they're still happy to go through with it. It could be anything. Someone could have had a bit of a stressful drive down or...

You know, they might be a bit tired and I would always want to make an adjustment for the sake of someone's comfortability.

We've also, we've spoken about trauma but what about pleasure? Because I know you're a sex coach and I know you value pleasure as I'm sure we all do but also it's maybe something that is neglected more than, people talk more about the pain in BDSM I think than the pleasure and how important it is to also have fun and feel good.

How do you incorporate that into your teachings and your work? Aww. By the way, for anyone listening, there is a cat on the screen. That wasn't just me suddenly saying, aww. Yeah, I'm a big advocate for pleasure. I think it's our birthright. And I like to say that the future of humans is pleasure. And I see that there's a lot of shame around pleasure.

I've been asked before, do you enjoy your job? As if I should be ashamed of enjoying it. Like, oh, we should only be productive. We should always be useful. It's like we're programmed from when we go to school that you have to be useful and you have to be purposeful. And I, you know, I think something being pleasurable is enough, isn't it? If we're safe.

I think that's the idea. Oh my god, yeah. I think there's this big idea that work is work and it's not enjoyable. Yeah, and you separate the sexual pleasure...

of life into the private realm totally, and you can't bring it into your work life or your personal life outside of the bedroom or the dungeon or whatever. But I think more and more that's changing that narrative. I'd like to think it's changing, especially for female pleasure, but would you say that you're seeing kink and pleasure, especially for women, destigmatised? Yeah, I am seeing some very positive things

news articles even even in the mainstream media I just picked up on something recently around um an increase in naturist activities over lockdown so people doing lots of activities over zoom calls in the nude and I just think that's great something else where we can banish shame yeah fashion industry is going down

Yeah, I mean, I'm all for clothes if they keep me warm, but generally I just want to rip them off as soon as I can. I totally agree. It's the first thing I do when I get home. But I don't know if I yet have the...

the bravery to just walk down the street naked but I'm hoping one day it will happen. Also because sometimes it's just illegal. It is illegal, yeah, in many places to be fair. But actually we work on Barcelona, Barceloneta beach in Barcelona and there is a nude beach just down the road. Right next to our office, yeah. It's very liberating. I go for a walk at lunch and I see loads of nude people and often they're quite a bit older. Yeah, maybe on your next walk you can be in the nude. Yeah, maybe. Yeah.

Well, yeah, I mean, I'm just, I can't wait till travel opens up again and I can go to the south of France and go and do some shopping in the nude and whatever else. Volleyball, that's the thing that most people do, isn't it? Is that the French way? Just shopping in the nude? Yeah, apparently so. In certain resorts. Love it. Go and buy your melons or your baguettes. Do you know where you should also go?

Yeah, you should also go to Glastonbury. It's got big nudists in there. Oh, really? Not just the festival, but the town. Yeah, if you just walk down the street, there's a lot of naked people.

I've been to, stayed in Glastonbury quite a lot and I never saw anyone that was nude. So now I feel a bit hard done by. Oh dear, where are they? It was just such fun. It was just such fun because I think, I think we have a slight delay. And so Anna mentioned Glastonbury and your face just remained kind of motionless. And I thought, okay, not, not amused. She hates Glastonbury. Do not mention it again. Oh, yeah.

Anyway, we got sidetracked. But yes, all for pleasure. And there should be more of it. Yeah, BDSM and sex are ways that humans can play and have fun. And I think we can be happy and who doesn't want to be happy?

Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. Well, that is wise. Is there anything else you think would be important for any listeners to know about your work and where to find you, actually? Because I know you're in London, but maybe you do online sessions. I'm not sure now that we've been living through a pandemic. So there is some information about that on my website, www.divinetheratrix.com.

I session in London mostly. I don't tend to do much work online unless it's consultation. So if someone contacts me and they're interested in my work, there will always be an exploratory discussion, which will tend to be by video call or voice call, depending on what my client's level of comfortability is, because not everyone wants to make eye contact. But in terms of sessions online,

I don't really do those online. I find that I'm a lot better when I can be in a physical space with a person. There's so much sensory data that we pick up just through sharing physical space. I found that over lockdown, when a lot of people moved their work online, it just didn't suit me. I'm a bit old fashioned in that respect, I guess. And what about your Instagram, Twitters? Do you want to tell people where they can find you?

Yeah, so I'm on both Instagram and Twitter as Divine Theoretrix. So just all one word, D-I-V-I-N-E-T-H-E-R-A-T-R-I-X. So yeah, at Divine Theoretrix. And I share little videos on Instagram where I talk about topical issues. So I did one today about nudity because that popped up.

Yeah, I talk about my work and I like to give little how-to's, you know, how to relax your partner during sex, how to negotiate BDSM scenes and little bits of info that I think might be helpful. And of course you are on fetish.com on the BDSM training school with your introductory course on pet play. Yes, please do. I'm really proud of that course. It was such a lot of fun to make and

I found myself almost like crying or looking on with pride and joy at these two wonderful humans having such lovely interactions and I just really hope that people can come at it with an open mind and once they see it for themselves they'll get what it's all about. Log into sydfetish.com, it's free to sign up and click on BDSM Training School and Introduction to Pet Play is right there.

Thank you so much for being here with us. It was a pleasure. And I think we learned a lot. I think I did. Yeah. Thanks so much for your time. It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

So, that was Divine Theoretics. Anna, would you be up for trying Pet Play now? You know what? She really did make it sound very appealing. I feel like I'm too in my own head about stuff. And you know how she was talking about the reason quite a lot of people like BDSM and BDSM Play is that the sensation takes you away from your mind. And you actually aren't always up here. I'm pointing to my head, by the way, to listeners. You're just feeling the sensations and

Yeah, it's a break from yourself in a way. You know, this is actually something I really like about talking to all the educators and the sexperts we have on the podcast, because it really is your kink might not be my kink, but it's okay. But when you hear somebody talking about what they do and why they love it and how they feel about it, it makes it sound really appealing. Exactly. Like what they get out of it doesn't mean that that's necessarily what you will get.

And that's okay. There's probably a kink for everyone, actually. But people are unwilling to go there because maybe they see something and they're like, well, that's not for me. You just have to find your own.

Yeah, I think really if there's one red thread that's kind of connecting all our podcast episodes, it's really kind of a big part of BDSM is knowing what you want and being able to communicate it and then find your people to practice this with. Right. And Divine Theoretic said the sanest people she's ever met are in the BDSM community because they know what they want and they've done the time and the research to explore it.

Yeah, and with this, season one is coming to an end. I can't believe it. Yeah. You know, we had a lot of trouble getting this off the ground because we started it and then the pandemic hit. And we were in Barcelona where you couldn't actually really leave your house. So we left it, you know, we left it for a while. And then when things finally started opening up again, we definitely realized we wanted to do it in person. It made it like much better than always doing it remote, except today because you have COVID. Oh, yeah.

I mean, it's really okay when you do it kind of like this once or twice, but it's just nicer when we are both in the studio. And yeah, because we are also, we're having loads of fun doing this. Yeah, and we hope you are too. So we really want feedback. We want to hear what you want to hear next, what you liked, what you didn't like so much, because we're going to go into full planning mode of season two this week next. So please reach out to us on our Instagram at spankynextpodcast.

as well as signup2fetch.com and you can hit us up there. My username is Anna Lu and Gregor's is Jordy Starr. Exactly, yeah, just write us a message, hit us up. We'd love to know what you think about the podcast, what you want to hear next. And also if you have a story that you would like to tell on the podcast, we are always open for that. We are all ears.

And with that, I think all there is to say is goodbye for now. We'll be back around mid-April, we think, with a new episode. So keep your ears peeled and we'll see you then. And keep it kinky until then. As usual, keep it kinky. Bye. Bye.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe to Spank You Next on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also follow us on Instagram at Spank You Next Podcast. If you're looking to connect with people who share your kinks, sign up to Fetish.com for free or download the Fet app from Google Play and the App Store. And for anyone looking to deepen their knowledge of kink, head to the BDSM training school on Fetish.com and enroll in a course now.

And last but not least, shout out to our producer Tim Smith.