Want better sex? Top sex therapist Kate Moyle explains how
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Hello, hello, dear Spanky Next listeners. I'm one of your hosts, Anna. Hey, and I'm Gregor. Spanky Next is the podcast where we talk about all things fetish and BDSM. And this week, we've got something special for you.

We've been recording these episodes for a couple of years now, if I'm not mistaken, Gregor, and there's so many new listeners that we get each month that we want to encourage you to go back and listen to the episodes that we think are really special, that are important at a certain time in the year. So we're going to be reposting old episodes for you to listen to alongside our newer episodes that come out twice a month.

Exactly. These episodes are hand-selected by the two of us and this week's episode is one that we think you should really listen to. So without further ado, let's get into the episode and please enjoy an older episode of Spank You Next. Spank You Next

Hello and welcome back to another episode of your fetish and BDSM podcast, Spank You Next. My name's Anna, I'm one of your hosts and I'm in the studio with Gregor. How are you? Hello everybody. I'm good. I'm really excited about this episode because it's one of my favorite topics. Therapy. It's therapy. Just some housekeeping at the top before we get into our love of therapy and the superstar therapist we have on our

podcast today we have a new website which has been a few months in the making so you can find us at www.spankynext.com and that's spank you want to know how to spell spank you not the word just you next.com so go there check it out you can share it with your friends and you can listen to all the episodes there

everything is starting to feel so professional really because yeah we're in season three and this year we did the photo shoot now we've got the new website the other week we were actually interviewed by a podcast and I can't wait for this episode to come out so loads of things are happening and also kind of we'll be speaking to some wonderful people who will be on the podcast in the future so I'm really excited about all of this absolutely and I think this is

I mean, this subject today is something very close to our hearts because we,

are avid therapy goers not just that but also we talked about the idea that maybe one day we would both go into therapy for me specifically sex therapy and I'm not sure Gregor you were more generalized but we had this idea and now we have sort of our jobs and things have kind of had to take a bit of a back seat I do still plan on maybe retraining in psychology in the next couple of years don't panic people in a couple of years you'll be able to book a session with us

Yes, which is actually quite a good way to come on to our guest because Kate Moyle, she's like a superstar therapist in the UK. She's a psychosexual therapist. And I was actually introduced to her by a friend when I was thinking about starting my journey to become a sexual therapist, like what was it, about six months ago. So I was put in touch with her. We had a conversation about different routes you can go into. And then I thought a couple of months ago, wouldn't it be great to get her on the podcast?

because we want to know her take on relationships, sexual wellness, um,

maternity insects, kinks, all those things that we get into in this episode. So we're super happy to have her here. We are really like a blessed generation because in our generation, it's absolutely okay to go to therapy. You know, I always try to push my parents to go to therapy because I think really kind of we have this idea now that the suffering is hugely unnecessary. If you have huge emotional things going on, you just talk to somebody and get the help you need.

And I think kind of now, slowly, sex therapy is becoming more and more of a thing because it's really necessary because

We talked about it and we'll be talking about it in the episode. Our sex education is really shit. Nobody out there knows what they're doing. It's all like trial and error. And then sometimes you can get really stuck with your own sexuality, with another person or just with a specific topic in your sex life. And that's where sex therapists are here to help. Yeah, totally. And I think Kate, when I spoke to her earlier,

a few months ago, she had said that like, you know, even five years ago, sex therapy was really not where it was today.

Now, especially going through a pandemic, definitely Gen Z are sort of, you know, really pushing forward with sort of sexual journeys, living their truths, maybe a little bit more than say at least our generation or, you know, even more so the boomers, let's be honest. And also, let's face it, also thanks to educational great podcasts like this one here.

Of course, we'll just give ourselves a pat on the back for that one. But yeah, the education, the information is getting out there. And I think with that, people are realising that I will also go to a therapist when I'm having any issue in my sexuality because my sexuality is incredibly important for my wellbeing overall. Okay, so let's get right into the episode. Here is Kate Moyle. ♪

Welcome, Kate Moyle, to Spanky Next. We're super excited to have you. You are a psychosexual sex and relationship therapist. So I guess let's start off just introducing yourself and sort of why you got into this line of work. Was there a kind of calling in your therapy journey or was it something you always knew you wanted to do? I always knew I wanted to be a therapist.

type of psychologist, psychotherapist. I don't think it was a surprise to anyone that knew me even growing up. I think I was just always that child that was always asking loads of questions and always talking to everyone. And I worked with lots of different groups of people. And for me, really, actually, it was an academic interest that drew me into the psychosexual side of it. Then I initially trained as a psychosexual therapist. So basic explanation of that is a

talking therapists, so psychotherapy, where you focus on and the work is orientated around sex, sexuality, sexual difficulties, challenges, so helping people to overcome what is not working for them sexually or what they need to explore sexually. And the thing about that is that it's what we describe as a biopsychosocial approach.

So understanding someone's biology, their psychology and then their social environment and their social world around them. Instead of being a really strict discipline, it's quite open, it's quite creative, it's quite wide reaching. And for me, I view a lot of it as quite kind of problem solving focused. So often we're trying to rebuild something or rework something, whether it's someone's definition of sex or what's not working for them sexually or if they're dealing with

you know, an accident, an injury, an illness, something that's affected them sexually and working out how they can rebuild their sex life around that.

That's really interesting because I can imagine people come to you with one problem and you start working through it and realize there's all these things that have been like going on and leading up to it. And it's not, this is kind of the arrival of the issue, but there's so much background there, I imagine. Yeah, I think for me, it's really nuanced and it's really layered. Often the assumption is that people are going to come and see a psychosexual therapist and they're

the therapist's intention is going to be to delve into their history and find that one big thing which made sex not work for them or that one big thing that caused their sexual problems. Actually, it tends to be much more of the relationship between all of the different parts of their life, whether it's their life experiences, how they learned about sex, how they feel about their body, sexual experiences they've had.

Sex education. Also a lot of stuff nothing to do with sex. So ideas about what it is to be a man or what it is to be a woman. Or ideas about faith or religion or shame.

There are so many really common themes, but also it's so individual with every person that you work with, which is what makes it such an amazing job. Therapy is often a bit stigmatized. I think kind of it's getting better, but a lot of people, they're a bit afraid of touching this area. Is that even a bit more severe when it comes to sexual therapy that people might have real difficulties to approach you? Well, for a start, a lot of people don't know that psychosexual therapy exists and I

A lot of people say that to me. They're like, I didn't know it was what I was looking for until I started looking. And then our favorite doctor, Dr. Google, said this is how lots of people work on sexual problems or solve sexual problems. And so lots of people don't even realize that it's a discipline. Actually, I feel like in the UK, currently, we actually have a pretty good approach to therapy. I think it's really the last kind of two years, the mental health conversation has really shifted. And with that, the therapy conversation, and it's much more normalized.

actually just sat with three friends two nights ago. We were all talking about therapy experiences. And yes, sex is still taboo and still stigmatized. And so you combine sex and therapy and people kind of are very curious. I think a lot of the time or there are lots of assumptions about what would have to be going so wrong to be in psychosexual therapy. Whereas actually, I'd say I work with a lot of people who are using it proactively to help them make the changes they want to make so that it doesn't feel like it gets

gets worse or goes so wrong. So who would benefit from seeing you? Really anyone who wants to change anything in their sex lives now. Obviously what happens is some people get to their rock bottom when it comes to sex or they feel completely lost or that they've run out of resources or it's a last resort whereas a lot of people start to struggle with sex and actually they realise they don't want it to get any worse and so they can tackle it earlier but the kind of classic present

Presentations, I suppose, in terms of dysfunction are things like erectile dysfunction, difficulties with ejaculating, difficulties with orgasm, sexual anxiety, a lack of desire, fears around lack of experience, desire discrepancy between couples, different interests between couples.

Sexual pain is a big one. Yeah, actually, and the more I've spoken to my friends, the more I've realized people have struggled with this more than I thought. It's actually quite common. Well, the estimated figures are 1 in 500, and we think that's probably vastly underreported because there's no consistent way of anyone measuring. And then we have dyspareunia, which again is...

painful sex, vulvodynia, so vulva pain. And then we also have conditions like endometriosis and things which are related to painful sex, plus things like certain cancers and gynecological cancers, prostate cancer, testicular cancer, and of course people that have injuries. But there's both psychological and organic challenges. And also some people just feel that they personally don't have a good relationship with sex as a subject or as a part of their life, and they want to be able to work on that.

I think that's interesting because when we talk about sex education, which we often do on this show, how bad it is. And maybe I'd like to think that it's getting better because people have more online resources, but also you have more pornography. So, you know, it's a bit of a warped picture. But with these kind of, especially with the more physical manifestations, how does therapy like help? Does it go in? Is it in combination often with like

health initiatives as well? Yeah so I work a lot of the time with women's health physios or pelvic health physios so quite often we were referring back and forth to each other so

I don't do any hands-on work. I don't touch my clients. There's nothing physical about the work that I do. And so sometimes there is a need for intervention with whether they're medical doctors, urologists, GPs, health physios, who can do the physical work that I can't. And then we work on the emotional side because as we know, when something isn't working, we then have all our feelings and our reactions affected.

And then sometimes it's working out with people how they can build a more positive sexual relationship with themselves. And that might be about them doing touch-based exercises at home, whether it's about getting kind of in touch with their bodies, learning about what they like. Self-sex education is often how I describe it. And sometimes it can be about desensitization or getting used to something or

Not quite exposure therapy, but learning how to manage uncomfortable feelings and getting used to them and working out what you can do and can't do. And sometimes for couples, it's closing sexual gaps, which might have built up over time. In your experience, do these things, especially when it comes to the pleasure aspect, do these things get taken seriously by doctors? Oh, that's quite a big question. I think, yeah, I just, it's because I had an experience about, oh, it must have been seven years ago, where...

I was having these kind of issues and I didn't, maybe it was my doctor, you know, but I found like as long as there was nothing physiological wrong, it wasn't taken as seriously. I feel like lots of doctors are not specifically trained in sexual problems, which in itself is a challenge.

And obviously, they're incredibly time limited, particularly in the UK. But I feel like it's getting better. Lots of doctors are really aware and taking training. But I think a lot of people do feel ignored. And, you know, we see that as a general trend with, for example, women's pain, and particularly to do with kind of gynecological conditions where there might be no obvious indicators. So for example, we know that endometriosis can only be diagnosed via a surgical procedure.

And so a lot of women, I think that the kind of average diagnosis time for endometriosis in the UK might be something like seven years, five or seven years. Yeah, or up to 10 for a lot of women as well. So I think that it's definitely not where it needs to be. But I do think that there are some really brilliant doctors who are really...

pushing the conversation at the moment and knowing where to resource and where to refer to. But I think a lot of people say they have experiences which haven't been positive. You said before that sometimes it's also a lot about closing sexual gaps that might have formed in a relationship. Why is it that it's so hard for some people to talk with their partner about the sex life they're having and about their experience of sex? I have a book coming out in September and one of the whole chapters is called The Sex Gaps because it's

I feel that there's so many gaps and that the biggest gap is between our expectations and our reality.

I think one of them is if we're talking about sex, we have to be having a problem with sex. We never see talking about sex being modelled as a good thing. We always think that it's a bad thing. So the fact that we have to talk about sex indicates there must be a problem and therefore we need to talk about it. Whereas every sexual expert, professional I know would say the opposite. If we're talking about it, that's a great thing. At least it's a great start to bring the conversation up. It's

It's also like a fairly well-trodden path, you know, that sex intimacy can dwindle in long-term relationships, especially for parents. Do you have any tips, wisdom for keeping that sex life alive when life gets in the way? One of the things, and it's really hard, I'm a parent myself, I completely get this, is you have to make the time. You can't find the time, you have to make it. And the intentionality that you have to put in

to your sex life when there is so much other stuff going on we know particularly we see with parents of under fives you have to just make the time and it might be like you put the kids down to bed and you're like right we're gonna go upstairs and just not necessarily have sex now but have some physical intimacy or just some us time whatever you want to call it we're gonna have to do it now and then we'll eat dinner later and it might just be that precious half an hour and you have to unromantically or unsexily put the time in but the intentionality of that

it's quite a big statement because you're saying let's prioritize this now you know the other stuff can wait but it goes against everything we've been taught about sex which is this magical thing that always just happens that it's spontaneous that the holy grail of sex is spontaneous sex and we don't like the idea that we have to do that and so again that goes into those gaps again that's

that's the the gap is oh if we have to do that our sex life's supposed to be really fucked because I never saw anyone else doing that I've never had anyone else talk about scheduling time together I've never seen that in a movie I feel like the death of a good relationship is listening to everyone else I've had this thing like this happened like six years ago every time we'd be like around friends and they were talking about their like sexual like yeah especially new couples compared to like I've been with my boyfriend for nine years

and new couples talking about all these things they were doing and it was so frequent and he was like in his head going I know when you get home we're gonna have some big sort of discussion about how we're on the wrong track about everything and he just knew it was coming because I was listening being like well if we're not doing that you know and if we're not approaching things like this something's wrong with us so you must see that a lot as well that there's a dialogue in people's head that's also holding them back a bit oh yeah the dialogue is massive and you know

Social media is essentially kind of 24-7 comparison culture. We make so many assumptions based on what we can see. Obviously, it's a curated reality. But we think, oh, well, they look great. I bet they're having great sex. It's not kind of a thought, but it's there in the undercurrent. We're so obsessed with trying to find kind of an objective measure to sex. We are all so preoccupied wanting to know how we measure up, how we're doing sexually. And we want to know if it's working for us because we don't have the control.

kind of normalized visible representation of sex. I also have the feeling also from what you said before that maybe a lot of problems come because we have a very preconceived idea how sex has to be for us and that maybe not necessarily matches our partner's ideas or the stories of our friends or what we really enjoy in the end. Definitely and what we define so one of the things I always ask people when we start working together is how do you define sex? Most people say a

Penis and vagina penetration. But obviously that's very heteronormative. It's pretty ableist. Lots of people who don't have both a penis and a vagina in their relationship, don't like that type of sex, can't have that type of sex, have intimate, fulfilling, exciting, pleasurable sex lives. And with this really narrow definition of sex, we're doing pretty much everyone a disservice. And that's why we see things like the orgasm gap that exist in men.

heterosexual relationships and different sex partner settings because we have become so preoccupied with the kind of pedestal model of sex which is intercourse is the real deal and everything else doesn't really count. No especially for women because you know like a third of a cent maybe even lower can orgasm through penetrative sex right. I was also definitely victim to this when I was younger it was like okay well we did that and you finished therefore it was a successful relationship

sexual experience. And now, and I'm speaking to a lot of other people, and it's sad that we had to wait till our 30s to sort of realise that actually getting off can be like completely one-sided one time and then you, you know, do something with them another time. And actually penetration cannot come into the arena at all. And that's still a very, very fulfilling sexual experience. Emily Nagoski talks about who wrote Come As You Are for anyone who's listened to this. And the workbook is phenomenal. And her podcast is

It's phenomenal. One of her phrases, and I quote it all the time, is pleasure is the measure. It just couldn't make more sense. That's a tweetable moment. Yeah.

Yeah, we were calling this season the revolution of pleasure rather than what people are just doing. Because, yeah, we know what people are doing, but are you actually enjoying it? And more and more, it's becoming much more normalized. We like to think that Gen Z are probably better at this, that they're much more about their own pleasure. This is what we hope for next generation. Because I certainly wasn't taught that pleasure was that important when I was growing up. Oh, God, no, not in mine at all. Yeah.

Can we go back to the motherhood thing or postpartum? Do you have any advice for getting your groove back postpartum? Let's say you're a woman and you're struggling to reconnect sexually because of, you know, all sorts. How do you sort of advise women on something like that? I just literally this week had an interview out with Giovanna Fletcher about this and all of the questions that she had received were

were basically around that theme. It's like, I feel not like myself, or how do I have the energy for sex? How do I get back to sex? Again, it feels something so far away. And that's because we know that desire, which is our motivation to want to have sex, is completely context dependent. And so when we've just had a baby, we have young children, sex very rapidly slips to the bottom of the priority list. It's a non-essential during that time.

So obviously we've got birth recovery, whether you've had a cesarean birth or a vaginal birth, that's kind of one part of it. If you're breastfeeding, you have lower estrogen levels, which can cause vaginal dryness and make sex painful. So we always recommend like a really good water-based lubricant for breastfeeding. Why?

We don't tell women that in antenatal classes. I do not know. And it's something that I talk about a lot because if you're starting to get back into having sex or wanting to try and have sex and you're very anxious and it's painful and there's a way that it could be less painful and that you could feel less anxious, then that's going to help you to want to repeat the experience. Whereas if it's really painful and feels really dry, you're going to think, oh God, what's wrong with me? Am I ever going to be able to have sex again? Suddenly all those anxious thoughts start coming up

And we don't know what to do with them. And that in itself can create a real vicious cycle. But don't focus on the act of having sex again, but just try and make those little what I call bridges, which are things like increasing sexual currency, which are reaching out to each other, physical touch, kissing. They're the opportunities for desire to be triggered and responsive. I like this a lot, especially because I think it really lowers the expectations so much.

because if you go in with this idea okay now we have to have sex because it was difficult enough to schedule this moment you know to get the children to bed and the time for the two of us and then something isn't working as it was supposed to or as expected to and so many people report feeling really touched out particularly young mothers who are breastfeeding feeling really touched out like

The amount of women that said to me, oh, I've got little hands all over me all the time, people grabbing at me all the time. And sex feels like another version of that, like another person that I have to look after, another person I have to...

give myself physically to and I feel like I have no space for myself. Helping to get yourself into a sexual headspace is often about, okay, what do I need for 15 minutes before we go to bed? Is it that I need a shower and to use a shower gel that's really centered to help me just kind of pull me into a different headspace? Is it that I want to wear, just put like a shirt on that feels nice against my skin and doesn't smell like baby sick or

Or is it that sometimes we need to shift our context? And we often talk about it in psychosexual therapy as kind of switching off to turn on. Because so often in so much of the rest of our lives, we are shifting context. You know, we go out to work, we close the door, we come back home. And we dress in a certain way for this. And we can lose that a lot. And we saw a lot of people really struggled with losing that in the pandemic because they were doing everything in the same space. Yeah.

We parented, coupled, worked, cooked, cleaned. Everything was, you know, for some people in two rooms. What's interesting about the pandemic is everyone was saying, oh, we're going to have so much sex now we're at home, you know, we're all together. And I think very quickly people realized that actually being cooped up together was probably not great for desire. Is there something, I know that Esther Perel talks about this a lot, you know, being over familiar kills like libido and desire.

Do you think that's true? And is there a way around that for like couples that live together and sort of do everything together? Yeah. I mean, Esther Perel is our queen. She really is. Absolute icon. Anything she says, I'm like, yep. We hope she knows who we are, but she doesn't. I think in my wildest dreams, she would know who I am. She talks about nurturing the erotic. And when you think about it, the day-to-day lives that we lead

They're not really erotic. When I can't think of the last time that someone told me that they thought that doing the washing up, taking out the bins, doing kids bath time, those things, they don't feed the erotic because the erotic thrives with curiosity and the unknown and exploration and playfulness. And so we see this real exchange of those things in particularly long-term relationships. And that's again where we have to kind of inject that back in where the intentionality bit comes in.

Dr. Karen Gurney, the sex doctor, is a fantastic voice of wisdom about desire. And her book is brilliant. I mean, I just can't recommend it enough. What's it called? It's called Mind the Gap. Mind the Gap. And her TED Talk is brilliant. Her Instagram page is brilliant. She's a good friend. So I'm happy to praise her all day long. But also just a really admirable professional.

What Karen says quite a lot of the time is so many of us, because we've been so preoccupied with this idea of spontaneous desire, we can be sitting around and we could probably be waiting forever to be hit by that lightning bolt.

of desire that we see in films that we've had modeled to us that happened at the start of relationships a lot when we didn't know someone we were getting to know them we were leaning into sex as a way of building a connection and exploring them and letting them explore us you know biologically you're also primed at the start of the relationships for that sexual connection as well what Karen always says is it kind of hurts that we know we used to have it and we don't seem to have it anymore that's almost the comparison that feels the bittersweet

the bitter pill to swallow. It's like, what was so good then and what's wrong now? Exactly. So do you see that a lot, I guess, as well? Yeah. People always say they want to get back. And actually, as a therapist, I often say to people, what was so good about back? Why can't we focus on now? Because your relationship isn't where it was back then. You know, your life isn't where it was back then. So why would...

sex be where it was back then. So we kind of try and work out where we want to be now because again then we can't keep thinking okay well if sex is a measure of how good my relationship is then this really must not be working because it used to be really good and again that's another thing we do. We use it as a measuring tool and actually we know it's a

Not a great one or really that accurate. Because, yeah, I think that people do think that if their sex is on fire, you know, they're meant for each other. But actually, sometimes the most toxic relationships is very fiery and they have great sex. Yeah, I think, I mean, obviously it can be a part of a great relationship and particularly for couples who really value sex. And we, again...

Both partners don't necessarily always value sex in the same way. But it shouldn't be the only way of measuring a relationship. There are lots of other facets to it. And we know that, for example, that asexual people can be in intimate relationships really happily and couple relationships really happily. I just wondered if there's one thing that you would like couples to know, for instance, a misconception that you would say, oh, my God, I see this.

So many times. And if just people would sit down and give it a think, things would shift. Oh, God. How do I pick one? It's a hard one. How do I pick one? It's a hard one. One is that you can take control of your sex life. I'd say the most work to be done on your sex life is actually not in the bedroom. It's outside of it. And I think that we all get so preoccupied with the doing of sex, whereas actually couples can do so much to bridge those gaps, to work on desire. But...

but that there is no normal amount of sex. And I think it's the one question people always say to me, how much sex is everyone having? How much sex should we be having? But if you are a couple, so if there's two of you in the relationship and you both feel satisfied with sex once every three months and you both enjoy it and it's satisfying for you and you both feel fine about it, that is totally fine.

It shouldn't be devalued because you think your next door neighbours are having sex once every two months and therefore in comparison to them, your sex life is not as good because frequency of sex isn't necessarily a determinant of quality of sex or sexual satisfaction. That's such a good point and especially for the people who live in tiny apartments and can actually hear their neighbours like me. Yeah.

No, but that's so true. I think we're obsessed with, okay, if we do it like once or twice this week, we're good. But actually, I found like the more you're with someone, maybe it gets less exciting, air quotes, but the sex gets better. The quality gets better. Yeah, the quality gets better. And the people that I've been with who have never really been in relationships and had a lot of one night stands, not so good. Just maybe because they've never grown and like...

sort of like developed in the same way until you maybe like stay with someone for a little while and you're like actually I'm not okay with that actually it would be good if you did that you know you get some pointers and also you care about each other and you get to know each other's bodies and you get to know what works and what doesn't work and that's often where we see the couple struggle with if one partner's faking orgasms because what happens is you're demonstrating to your partner that this is how to pleasure me and then they continue to repeat the

those strategies or positions that they think are bringing you to orgasm. And that is where often we see couples get really stuck with that because then one partner might never want to kind of fess up that they've been doing it because they feel bad because then they have to say they've been doing it for a long time. And this is where we see that faking orgasms actually can be really challenging in relationships because it is a kind of short-term thing

The gain, which is I'm trying most of the time, most of the reason that people give is that I didn't want to disappoint my partner. I didn't want my partner to think I was bad about sex. I didn't want to hurt them. It tends to be most often with a good intention, but the short term solution tends to bring more long term consequences. Yeah.

Is there any way that people can broach this faking it topic? Because it's a huge one, I think, especially for women. I don't think I know anyone that hasn't faked orgasms. And let's even do it for a long time. How do you finally say, like, bring it up? And I imagine the other person would feel like they've kind of been lied to. I can understand it really hurting. Well, men fake orgasms as well, actually, but it is more common in women. I've faked an orgasm, yeah. Yeah.

Okay, sorry. Not proud, but yes. I think if you don't feel able to say to your partner, then saying, why don't we try some new things together is a good way of trying different things. And appreciation and being vocal about what is working.

is going to be kind of positive and motivating. So letting them know what does feel really good and you knowing that you're doing it genuinely is a really important thing because we all like to be told we're doing a good job in whatever we're doing in life. And we're also very sensitive to criticism when it comes to sex. Being able to say to our partners, that feels really good or could you do that a bit more? What about to the left a bit? Or I read an article about this. Do you fancy trying it? Or I found that sex scene in that Netflix episode really hot.

maybe we should try that. There are so many ways that we can introduce new things into our sex lives just by talking to our partner. So you don't necessarily have to say, but you can say, do you know what? I've really been thinking that I'd like to try something new with you. Can we try this together? Or is there anything you'd like to try too? I really like that because it links so beautifully to what you said before, that you can take control of your sex life. And this is really a way of taking control.

Yeah, and it's without devaluing the previous experiences. It's just this new chapter, you know, this sort of going forward instead of back, like you say. One of the big things that we think is that once we start sex, it has to stay the same all the time. And again, it's one of those really pervasive ideas about sex that makes no sense. Everything else in our life changes. Our tastes change, our style changes, our hobbies change. We go

go to a new country and we think, oh, I really like it here. I want to come back here next year on holiday, not the last place I went to. You know, we were constantly kind of evolving the rest of our lives. So why would sex not change in the same way? And why do you think it is that people find it so difficult to bring up the idea of like changing things, but also like you say, that we get so defensive and we're very...

sensitive to criticism in the bedroom maybe more so than like most other arenas in our lives like we're supposed to know how to do it right it's like this idea that like I should know that so I'm not going to bring it up or something like that I think because we don't see it normalized anywhere sex is still in 2023 a taboo subject largely it's obviously miles away from where it used to be but I definitely still get a raised eyebrow when people ask me what I do for a job

We haven't kind of got to where we need to get to, but also we don't get taught how to talk about sex and relationships. So everyone is going in blind. I often say having a conversation about sex is like trying to talk in a language that we haven't been taught. We're not...

used to it or comfortable with it and we don't often see it being modeled and that's because of multiple reasons because sex education isn't good enough we've seen non-representative versions of sex in films and on tv which is where a lot of us get information about sex and relationships from we don't have this open conversation or ability to talk about it

with, you know, a lot of people say, oh, talking about sex is embarrassing. And then it feels sometimes like we're admitting that we aren't good at sex if we have to talk about it, or we don't know what we're doing. And that in some way reflects badly on us. This is so funny, but also horrendous, this pressure of being good at sex when it's above all something you or yourself should be enjoying.

Yeah, that's so true. Make it so performance based, especially the way, well, I certainly learned mine from film. Sadly, American Pie. So, I mean, imagine the kind of stories I got from that. Premium resources. You know, very toxic messages about sex. Yeah.

But yeah, like you're supposed to enjoy it. You don't have to be like the best at everything and you don't have to always be 10 out of 10. It's like a collaborative thing, right? But also it's completely subjective. So the three of us are going to have different versions of what good sex looks like. There's no objective measure. There's no one way to be good at sex. And it's something you kind of co-create between every partner with every person you have sex with or have a sexual experience with. And in relationships, it's going to change.

you know it's going to go through different phases and stages and that's totally fine. I think you were saying about polyamory and you know ethical non-monogamy we're like definitely seeing it being talked about a lot more people a lot more open to this idea that monogamy is not working for them how is that in the therapy space have you had experience with like multiple people and also navigating different desires and jealousies within these dynamics?

Yeah, definitely. And there's amazing organizations. There's one called Pink Therapy in the UK who are working. So all therapists are kind of trained with GSRD, so gender, sexual relationship diversity, and where you can also, they have a directory of therapists that you can choose people based on, you know, what they disclose or their experiences. And I think it's really important. I think people are exploring these different ways of being and

you know one of the core backgrounds of ethical non-monogamy is communication and knowing how to manage partnerships and the rules and the boundaries that go with that but of course it's a relationship and all relationships have things about it that work and don't work and they're definitely coming into the therapy space but no more so than you know probably less so than monogamous relationships actually yeah because maybe they are so much more well versed you

you'd hope in the communication aspect because you do have to constantly check in and maybe it's something actually other couples should do more. Well the communication bit is a complete necessity and I think the thing that I'd say about ethical non-monogamy from talking to people in those relationship setups and people working in the space is that there are much less assumptions than take place in monogamous relationships because by definition of opening up your relationship or

trying a new model of relationship or whether it's you know a triad or multi-partner or is that you have to set the rules and by setting the rules and the agreements and the boundaries you have to talk about them it doesn't magically happen so you have to create the plan and where there's primary partners or whether it's a throuple whether everyone is kind of in relationship with everyone else or it's a v it doesn't it doesn't kind of matter what it looks like but it has to be

agreed you know that's why it's ethical non-monogamy and it's not infidelity yeah because you can't leave the grey areas you might when there's just two people and you probably shouldn't leave those grey areas because actually that's where you get into trouble in with just two people but yeah I think I think actually we can learn a lot from that

that community and we say this about the bdsm community because obviously circling back to our podcast but you have to have everything communicating out in the open and everything negotiated and checking it and actually the vanilla world could learn so much from the kink community in this way

Yeah, I absolutely agree. And that's something that I've said multiple times before. Yeah, talking about the BDSM and King community, we are also doing this podcast to destigmatize a lot of the BDSM and King community. And then we also get a lot of questions because, of course, people feel maybe a bit more this element of shame.

when they have a very specific fetish, but at the same time, I really think kind of the BDSM communities is one of the most open and tolerant and welcoming communities I've encountered.

So I think there's really these kind of two contraries. So I wanted to ask you if you've had experiences with fetishes and kinks in your practice and what are the main topics people bring to you? Yeah, well, the reason that people present for therapy is because they're struggling with something. And so a lot of people who are comfortable with their kinks and their fetishes, it's about a part of their identity, how they feel about themselves and they're comfortable with that,

they don't need to come for therapy for it because it's not a problem for them. So it's often when people are trying to work something out or they're struggling with something or there's an acceptance issue kind of going on with it or it's presenting in a relationship where partners are not matched. But, you know, people that are, as we say, kind of happy in themselves and accepting of their kinks and feel like it's a part of their sexuality and a very welcome part and they've found their community. Often when people find their community in their space, that's the support that they need sometimes to feel accepted

But therapy is the space that people don't go to just to talk about how happy they are with their sex life a lot of the time. That's true. And the whole mismatched thing can be a real issue as well. Like if you have a kink and someone's just like really not into it, you kind of have to look for other options. Maybe it's not breaking up. It's that they can get what they need from someone else for that specific kink.

And then, you know, there's loads of ways it can look. But I imagine it can be quite distressing as well when you do feel this like shame and it's just like creating a problem in your relationship. Yeah, I think it does create a lot of distress for people, especially if people feel that they have to choose. So do I have to choose my sexual sense of self?

my identity or do I have to choose my relationship? A lot of that comes with, as you said, the stigma of kinks and fetishes because what can often happen is the person with the kink or the fetish becomes the problem one or the, well, you're the one with it. So, and we see that kind of dynamic can get created. And that's where, you know, kink-aware therapists are really important because they're

So that therapists are then not shaming those thoughts and offering a space, which is why if anyone's listening to this who's looking for a kink wear therapist, pink therapy is absolutely near the directory to look at. Esther Perel says, behind every fetish, there's a story.

I'm thinking about this a lot and honestly I'm not sure if it's true and I would be so interested in it because it's also very easily to you know what we just said and just judge somebody and maybe sometimes it's just better to not overanalyze things so I just really wanted to get your take on this.

I've never heard that quote of hers. I really like it. I don't know if I agree with it or not. I would love you to ask someone like Dominic Davies, who's the head of Pink Therapy, what he thinks about that. We should get them on, actually. You should. He's amazing. He's been on my podcast and he's a colleague of mine. He's fantastic. I'm sure there is. But then I do think that sometimes we like things that we like without knowing why. You know, we don't necessarily know why we like the taste of certain cuisines or certain textures or...

And of course, there are examples where we've learned to enjoy something. But I don't think that there is any exact theory on why we have kinks and fetishes. Because is it genetics? Is it life experiences? Is it context? Is it all of them?

Is it that we respond to one thing really strongly and we don't know why? Is it shame? Is it that we explored it with one person and it completely opened our eyes to something having never been a part of our life for 30 years? For me, again, this is all about the nuances of sex. We're kind of back to where we started, which is that we can't just assume that there's one theory or explanation for everything like this because it's

We're human and there's something that can't be, you know, although there's so many similarities, there are also so many individual differences that just can't be accounted for. Amazing. I feel like that's a great place to wrap up for anyone that's listening.

I actually met Kate because I would like to become a therapist too. And actually we had a preliminary conversation about me starting my training into like sex and maybe kink informed therapy. So it's kind of, it's nice to get you on the podcast. And why don't you tell people you've got a book coming out, you've got season four of your podcast. So tell people where they can find you and some, you know, what you're up to. Yes. So the podcast is the sexual wellness sessions. It's on all the big platforms. So I'm just recording the fourth series at the moment, but

but every episode is a deep dive into a particular topic. So whether that be sexual diversity, asexuality, desire, motherhood and sex, sexual trauma. This season we are doing the brain and sex. We've done sex in the media, doing attachment styles and sex. Today I interviewed a female

female body casting artists about genital diversity so there's all these different themes but the whole thing is that we really focus in on one topic and for me it was a big part of taking my learning from inside the therapy room to outside the therapy room because there's so many common themes that I see and my book is out in September and it's called The Science of Sex and essentially it is a

book which is every page is a question that someone has about sex and they're answered with all of the research and statistics and it's semi-illustrated by an amazing illustrator oh amazing that sounds wonderful we'll definitely shout it out when it's out thank you well we'll put all the links in our show notes anyway and i'm sure some people that listen to this will definitely want to listen to yours so there's definitely overlap there

And apart from that, thank you so much for coming on Spank It. Thank you so much. That was so interesting, really. I really enjoyed it.

I think there's just such a wide ring of this world that if you do need to go see someone, you are having any sort of, it doesn't even have to be a problem. I was talking to my partner about having maintenance couples therapy, sexual therapy to help you out as things develop and change in your relationship. Such a good idea. Let's face it, I think we were raised and educated in a way that we always think we have to take care of everything ourselves.

Especially with emotions, it's so much easier to have somebody from the outside who looks at your topics and isn't attached to it like you are or like your friends are. Because usually we like to get friends' advice, but you know, they always are on their own agendas. Absolutely. They're often talking from their own experience, as we do too. Yeah.

Okay, so I think without talking any longer, go to all the call-outs that Kate gave you, go to her website, listen to her podcast, and we will be waiting with breath that is baited for this book that's coming out. And I'm sure we'll have her back on the podcast to talk about it then. Yes, definitely. So until then, have a really nice time and keep it kinky. Keep it kinky.

Don't forget to subscribe to Spanky Next on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also follow us on Instagram at Spanky Next Podcast. If you'd like to connect with people who share your kinks, sign up to Fetish.com for free or download the Fet app from Google Play Store and the App Store now.

And for any one of you who is looking to deepen their knowledge of kink, head to the BDSM training school on fetish.com and enroll in a course now. And last but not least, shout out to our producer, Billy Cragen, our kinky team, and everyone who makes this podcast possible. Oh!