Breaking Mold: Jackie's Artistic Journey in Ceramics
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I love ceramic like I would buy like ancient old like hong dynasty qing dynasty like porcelain but like 99.9% of other kids like my age wouldn't do that because like the Aesthetic the lifestyle it just doesn't fit right? so

I was like, it's such amazing craft, such a beautiful material, and it's such an important part of Chinese history. You know, Chinese people invented porcelain, and everyone else tried to figure out how to make porcelain for hundreds of years, and they couldn't. So we had a recipe for so long, but now Chinese porcelain is the least appreciated porcelain in the world. Welcome to another captivating episode of Cultural Coalition Beiqiang Nanbiao. I'm Victoria.

I'm EJ. In today's discussion, we have a special guest, Jackie Chen, the visionary founder behind a useful ceramic brand, Infragile, that's redefining the landscape of ceramic art pieces with a focus on contemporary ceramics and artistic collectibles. Jackie's journey is both inspiring and intriguing. Let's delve into his story, his experiences straddling education between the U.S. and China, his work,

trajectory upon returning and the reasons driving his venture into the ceramic world. Welcome, Jackie. Thank you. Thank you. Glad to be here. It's so good to see you again, Jackie. Yeah, excited to see you. It has been a while. It has. So interestingly, your brand is called Infragile. I don't know if you know, like not that long ago, there's that, I guess it's still popular K-pop song.

Anti-fragile? Do you know that song? I'm not big into K-pop. I thought you were going to say something else. But like, yeah. But I would definitely check it out. I should check it out, yeah. Maybe you can use it for some branding or a TikTok video sound or something. It's pretty catchy. Yeah. It's pretty catchy. That's a good idea, yeah. I would definitely check it out. Thanks for bringing that to my attention, yeah. So where are you now?

I'm in Qingdezhen, you know, like the ceramic capital of China, of the world. Some people say that, you know. Is that where you're full time now? I would say like... Or is that just where your studio is? This is like where I design like most of my product, you know, like this is like for production mostly.

you know, so I would spend like 75% of my time here. I would do the prototype and I would like design the mass production process and I would train like craftsmen come in and teach them how to turn this one prototype into a couple hundred units. And once that is done, sometimes I would go to, you know, Shanghai, go to Shenzhen, go to Beijing to attend like conference, to attend like shows, trade shows, to meet with clients. Most of my clients are still from like tier one cities.

So I would go on business trips to these cities and come back, check the quality of the work and ship them out to various locations. So this is kind of like my base now, but I would like to go out and branch out to other cities, even countries next year. Next year, I have planned to go to a convention at Frankfurt and I will probably go to Chicago next year.

If you go to Chicago, you better message me. If I don't get a WeChat message from you, I'm going to be upset. No, like the second I land at O'Hara, I'll definitely like message you. Even before that, I'll let you know before I take off. Okay, so Jackie, you've had a unique journey, education journey, attending high school and universities in the U.S.,

So how have your experiences in the American high school and college influenced your general perspectives on education and life? My high school was very, I would say, supportive of everyone's interests. Before I was attending school in Haidian, which is the capital of China.

I remember when I was in kindergarten, my parents would let me go to study P.I. You gotta attend these like math competitions, all those like typical things. But like I always had an interest in, you know, handsome craft that wasn't really... I didn't even have the access to the materials, resources to support my interests. But after I attended, you know, Avon Old Firm, which was my high school, you know,

all the faculty was super supportive and everything was kind of... I wanted to say everything was free for me, right? Because I wasn't paying the tuition. But there were just so many resources and you could just use them. And my favorite places... One of my favorite places back...

at Avon old firms was the art studio. I would just go there on the weekend, use everything and create whatever. And no one would tell me, "Oh, you're using too much paint. You're using too much clay." So that was really a great opportunity for me to explore what I'm really interested in. My freshman year at Avon, I didn't even pick an art class because

I didn't have any art or creative official class before I went to A-Bomb. So it wasn't even on my radar. So I just picked any general class, like any other freshman.

But because I was in the art studio every single weekend, the art faculty was just like, Jackie, you should pursue this. Next year, you should definitely pick an art class. You're doing really good work here. And I would show my drawing to my other faculty advisors, and they'll be like, wow, Jackie, this is amazing. Everyone's been super supportive my freshman year, and that eventually led me into picking ceramic classes, architecture classes my sophomore year.

To me, it's not surprising that like, I don't know, I was a theater kid in high school. I've taught in schools in the U.S. and like people love spending time with art teachers. They're like the coolest, most open-minded, you know, welcoming, supportive people. I feel like at most schools like around the world. So to me, it's not surprising that you ended up there. I would imagine though that perhaps, I

I don't know, I feel like ceramics, particularly in the U.S. for high school students, isn't like the most popular art form. So I'm wondering, did you like immediately jump into ceramics or did you sort of find your way there eventually through drawing and painting and other sort of creative forms? How did you, how much of your high school experience was focused on ceramics versus other sort of art forms?

Yeah, so yeah, that's actually a really good point, you know, especially for my high school, which was like an all-boy high school. Ceramic wasn't really a big thing, you know, people like to play lacrosse, you know, like to play hockey. I guess I was interested in it when I was a little kid, you know, like I would go to those like ceramic pottery, you know, shop and like do this like one-time experience, like try out thing, but I only did it like three times, I think.

But my freshman year, I think we did this charity event.

just make as many clay pots as possible and like parents would come in they would buy them and donate money and we would raise money and donate those money to like you know kids in need so that was like my first you know really major event with ceramic and i just think i like i jumped into it and i learned really fast there were like 10 students i was one of the few freshmen and just picked up really fast and like the teacher was like wow jack you have a talent for it and you

and you know like and people say oh you have a talent for it of course you'll be like oh i'm good at this maybe i should try more you know so after that uh my sophomore year i started hosting the event you know like when i was a freshman i was attending and then my sophomore junior senior year i started to lead the event and i would like make ceramic pot and combine you know chinese like calligraphy with them and give those as gift to my teachers

I'm always very proud of being Chinese, like the Chinese culture. We also have a 5,000 years Chinese culture. So I was like, when I gave this gift away to my friends, it's kind of like spreading my culture. And that still kind of continues today, I guess, with what I'm doing. You studied finance and architecture design at Wuxi, right? So you didn't choose any career related to what you're doing right now?

Yeah, that's actually a really good point. So I actually did want to do a career path related to architecture. I interned at HOK at Gensler, where I was at WashU, which is like two of the three largest architecture firms in the world right now. But I always had this idea that I want to create my own

When I was in first grade, elementary school, I would buy these Pokemon circular erasers

right and i would like carve them out you know they're like circular shape shape right so i would like use a little knife and cut all the extra part and carve them into the shape of the pokemon right so i would buy those like eraser for maybe like one fly like rmb and sell them for like five quite to my friend because i cut them you know so i added value to it and like i was like making money but then like one day my teacher just called my mom i was like yeah your kid is making money from his like you know classmate and he's only for

first grade and that like ended my like entrepreneurship my first like so I always like the idea of like turning something

draw or something that's like pretty simple, adding value to that in my own and sell that to like, you know, people who appreciate it. And while I was at large architecture firm, well, the reason I chose architecture was because I thought architecture would give me the same kind of reward, the same kind of experience. But then I got into it. I felt like there was too much compromise with clients, with like construction restriction. And

one project take like five, 10, maybe even 20 years to complete. I was like, I was struggling and I was trying to find something else I could do. And also after I graduated, you know, there was a restriction on job visa for architecture student. So I couldn't like really, uh,

find the ideal job I wanted in the United States. And I was like, well, it's a good time to take a break. You know, I should go back to China because I was living in the United States for eight years already at that point. I just feel like, you know, it's a good time to go back, take a break to absorb what maybe what I have been missing in China for the past eight years.

If I really still love architecture, I want to do it, I will go back to the United States and maybe study like a master, you know, go to like a master program. But at that point, you know, I came back to China and my first job in China was actually at a large financial company.

financial institution. But I didn't stay there for very long. I stayed there for like maybe four or five months. And I was like, this is it. I can see the future. Like 30 years from now, I'll be doing work. So I was like, you're making money

to buy things you enjoy versus like you're doing what you enjoy, right? So like every day, like every second of death, you're just like, oh, I'm here for the money so I can do something I like on the weekend with the money I earned here, right? And after a couple months, I'm just like, this is not working. Because like five days of seven days a week, you're wasting your life there. Versus you only have two days to live. Versus now, like I feel every single day, I'm like doing what I love.

So I just couldn't stand it. I feel like I have a very low tolerance for things I don't like. So I had to quit, you know. That's very interesting. That is where we're built differently. I feel like my tolerance for dealing with things that I don't like, unfortunately, is higher than it should be.

So, I mean, you mentioned you were in the U.S. Job situations, you know, it was difficult. And so you decided to move back to China. I mean, you're someone who has lived in a lot of different places, traveled in different places. You know, how do you see that, like, showing up in your personal life or your professional life, the influences or how do those experiences, yeah, how are they influencing your life at this point?

Yeah, like, I mean, like, it's influencing everything I do now with my startup, you know, because, like, my whole idea with Infragile is creating a useful platform

Ceramic brand that's like actually appealing to young consumers, right? Like I love ceramic like I would buy like ancient old like Tang Dynasty Qing Dynasty like porcelain but like 99.9% of other kids like my age wouldn't do that because like the Aesthetic the lifestyle it just doesn't fit right? so

I was like, it's such amazing craft, such a beautiful material. And it's such an important part of like Chinese history. You know, like Chinese people invented porcelain and like everyone else tried to figure out how to make porcelain for hundreds of years and they couldn't. You know, so like we had a recipe for so long, but now Chinese porcelain is like the least appreciated porcelain in the world. You know, we have Germany, porcelain, like American, like you

UK, Japanese, Korean, it's all above Chinese porcelain now. I was like, why is that happening? So I felt like I need to bring that back, you know, kind of in a way to make it appealing to our own Chinese people my age. We have to appreciate it first, and then we can spread it to the rest of the world and people can appreciate Chinese porcelain again. So that requires not just understanding

the Chinese cultural part, but understanding what young people like, understanding what people from different countries, is their lifestyle like, right? So now, for example, I'm combining porcelain with hookah, you know, like, right? Young people love hookah! People love hookah, so I

I had the fortune of like experiencing a lot of hookah when I was in college. So I know how to use it, like what kind of people use it. So I know those people, consumers, right? I would like to, you know, if I want to interview with those people, design product for them and sell them to the Middle East, to the United States, to the USA. So that's, I couldn't do that if I didn't have the experience, you know, of living in different places. So that's just one of, you know, many examples, you know.

That's cool. I mean, it's cool how the work, the products that you're creating seem in some way autobiographical, right? Like you're putting your life into these pieces. I think that's really cool. Yeah. And it's also emotional because you want to bring the proselytizing, like Chinese standard proselytizing back to the world top level, right? And that's kind of like why you want to do this. So why did you come up with the name like InFragile? Oh, that's a very interesting story. So

Actually, the original name was "I'm Fragile" so the "I am" was like a short version for like "I am fragile" because I was like I don't want... because like when I was telling people "Oh, I'm making porcelain, it's so good, it's so fun" they're always like "Oh, it's..."

so easy to break, you know, it's very fragile. And it's like, yeah, but why is that a bad thing? You know? So I would explain to people, you know, today we're so used to plastic. We live in like a plastic culture, a plastic society where like, we're so used to just like using this and like very cheap thing and throw it away and kind of like not appreciate where it came from and where it goes to next. Right. And,

And that mentality is not just with product, but we also kind of see that with people now with information. So the whole thing with ceramic that's appealing to me is that, you know, it's a very slow and like Zen and like meditative, like process of making a ceramic piece, right?

And I want to turn that fragile fragility into a selling point or I'm proud of being fragile, you know, like that's who I am. And I'm not afraid of hiding that. So the original name was I'm Fragile.

Right. But I was telling the idea to my friend, David, who has been a mentor to me for the past like 10 years. I was telling him and he's like, oh, you should. I thought it was infragile because impossible. You know, the the the prefix and, you know, oh, that's a really interesting idea. And we kind of talked about it. And now the brand name actually has a double meaning. Right. So.

Infragile means not easy to be break, right? You're like very strong. So in order to achieve strong mindset, first you have to accept your fragility. You have to accept that some part of you is fragile. Once you are able to be brave enough to tell people, yeah, this is something I'm stuck at, you know, this is something I'm not good at, no one can defeat you. So that's kind of the double meaning now within the brand's name. And the same thing applies to people and it applies to force name.

I love that. I love that. It's very interesting. I listened to a podcast just today, this morning, and they were talking about human characteristics. People are fragile, but at the same time, we are the most resilient creatures in the world. So I like the idea of why you combined the E.M. Fragile together and how you came up with this name. It's been three years since E.M. Fragile has started.

What is it like to, like, run your own business, to be your own boss, right? How has that, like, changed your life? It changed, like, my lifestyle for sure, you know. I was...

Because like before this, you know, I was working at big corporation, you know, you can go travel, you can like, you know, stay at like book at nice hotels, you know, you can fly like the flight regardless of the time, right? You can, if you have a meeting at 11, you can, you can book a flight at 10, right? That's reasonable. But now, like, since I started this, you have to like book the flight at 645. So it's the cheapest flight, right? You have to be conservative, like,

very calculated, like which part of the money you spend on the company, which part of the money you spend on yourself. And when you are the owner of the company, that line has to be drawn very clear, right? Because sometimes you feel like you're spending money on the company, but in reality, you're actually doing that for yourself. That has been like probably one of the biggest change for me, very mindful of where you're putting the money at. But I also say it would be the most

rewarding thing, you know, cause like if you work at a company, if even if you're the project leader, you would feel like, Oh, this is, this project is for these, for this company is for this client. But when you are working for yourself, like,

If you feel like you take full responsibility, but when you're success, you also feel like this is my project. Like I have done this, you know, kind of reward experience is very fulfilling, but you have to constantly like remind yourself what you have achieved. You have to set like small goals, maybe like a month, two months, three months, because like sometimes you could be working on something for six months and you feel like you have achieved nothing. Yeah. Important to celebrate the small wins, you know?

Yeah, exactly. You put it perfectly. Important to celebrate the small wins. You mentioned in the beginning, you changed your lifestyle after you started up this company, right? You started with organic food and now going back to the normal supermarket and checking the price tag on eggs, right? So given this starving artist stereotype, what motivates you and prevents you from giving up?

You know, like the most important thing I thought about like giving up many times actually, right? So like this time I was like, damn, this is so difficult. I should just go back and get a job. But then like you ask yourself, if I give up now, like everything I have built up to this point, if I just give it up, like how much would I regret it? You know, like 10 years from now, 20 years from now, right? And then you'd be like,

I would definitely hate myself for giving up now. If I just suck it up a little bit, if I get over this moment, things will get better. So I just kind of imagine myself in the future, 20 years from now, working at a normal financial corporate job and telling my kids, oh yeah, your dad used to do this really cool thing, but then I gave it up because I'm for this salary. So I just couldn't accept that. So yeah,

I just, I've been stuck with it for the past three years, you know. I'm curious. I mean, you're someone who's gone from selling carved Pokemon erasers to now custom, right, your own creative, like, ceramic pieces. You know, like, entrepreneurship, I'm sure, in the span that you've had in what, I don't know, how old are you in first grade to how old you are now? Like, 10, 15 years of entrepreneurial experience, right?

I mean, you've touched on some of the challenges that you've experienced and some of the rewards. I guess if you think about, I don't know, I guess, do you still consider yourself an entrepreneur or do you see yourself more as an artist? Are these things...

in competition with each other? How do you sort of reconcile these identities that you sort of have? I guess, well, I think the short answer is I'm just Jackie, you know? Like, I don't look at those texts that way, but, like, I...

I would say I respect, I have huge respect for artists because I think artists are like every single one of them are like entrepreneurs as well. You know, you have to be able to market yourself. You have to like position your crafts like differently to be successful. So, um,

For me right now, I kind of like separate my work into two segments. I still do like my own ceramics work, you know, like hands-on, like everything. And those are just like for myself, you know, like if I like it, I like it. Like I don't care what other people think. If you want to buy it, we can negotiate a price, right? But there's also work I do for clients. And for those, you know, I see them as,

know business projects so you do have to compromise on those as still um but you know as i learn more about the craft as i you know have more trust with my client as we know each other better now i have more and more control over the the design which is what i'm really happy with now but you know still compromise is

is a reality I have to face with every day with my business project. In the beginning, I want to keep that part as the same as my own projects. This is my work, it has to be 100%. But then you face issue with delivery date, you face issue with budget restraint. So you have to make compromise to put it on the market. So my way of dealing with that, I guess, like your question, how do I balance it is

My own work, I just do them at home. It's my studio. I don't care. And then like, very clearly, I separate my business project into a different part. Speaking of the art pieces you are making to sell, right? Like, I think you want to the fusion of culture and creativity. So how do you infuse the cultural elements into your ceramic designs? And what do you hope your customers take away from these pieces?

I guess like still, I think the key is still myself, you know, it's my taste, my lifestyle, you know, like I wouldn't do something I wouldn't buy myself. Like I guess how this whole thing started was I couldn't buy ceramic pieces I like anymore. You know, it's just not available on the market. So I have to make it myself. Right. And once I started making those people around me, it's like,

"Oh, can I buy that from you? I really like that as well." And I posted on Instagram and clients start to come and reach out to me. It's like, "Oh, can you do custom work?" So everything still comes from me and it's my...

It's back to EJ's question. It's everything I have already experienced up to this point. You know, all the places I've been to, all the things I have seen, all the music, all the food, like hookah, all the things I've done. Like, it's a lifestyle choice, right? And then I just turn those and merge them with ceramic. I don't like to...

market my work as, you know, fusion or like mix of different cultures because it's all me, you know, like I'm Chinese. So I just see it as new Chinese ceramic work. If I make something, nobody buys it. I love it. You know, it's just my own work. It goes back to the second part of my, it's just another work on my studio list, you know?

Could you maybe share with us like a fun or amusing story that has come out of like your creative process or maybe like working with a client or, you know, something, you know, or just like being in the industry. If there's any sort of amusing anecdotes or funny stories you could share with us.

I would say like this is kind of a big moment for me when like one of my first like big clients reached out to me and he reached out to me because he saw my work on Instagram. I was like, I was posting work on Instagram like three years ago. And then like one day this guy reached out to me and he's like, oh, can you do custom work for me? I was like, sure. And he's like, oh, I'm like, I work for Edison Chen, you know? I was like, oh yeah, like, right, you do. And then like, I like, we didn't talk for like maybe a month or so. And then like,

One day he just created this like, you know, Instagram chat group, you know, you can have like different people in this one group. And then he's like, oh, I'm adding like my business partner, like Edison Chen to the group. And then like, I was like, it was actually Edison's account in the group. He's like, looking forward to work with you. And I was like, I had to like double check everything. I was like, oh, it's actually his account. You know, I was like, damn, like, this is crazy. I couldn't believe it. So that was like a very...

I guess it's amusing because looking back at it now, I wasn't very excited. My first reaction was just like, this is not true. You know, this is like a scam, you know? That's awesome, right? You never know who's looking at your Instagram. To all the people out there, right? You never know who's watching your Instagram. Yeah, that's so cool.

Yeah, it's also like he reached out because he loves your like art piece. What do you post on Instagram? And he's like interested and he wants to know more about your work. Yeah.

I think that's a good thing about the Instagram community. People look at other people's work and they're like, "Oh, let me work with this person." Versus some other app, they're like, "Oh, this is a great idea. I'm going to steal it and do it myself." That's why I still like the Instagram community. I'm not sure if he saw it first or his business partner saw it first, but then

you know, they reach out to me. So I guess like no matter what, it's big for me. I know you also work with other brands like on the art pieces, right? Can you talk more about like what other things you are doing right now? Yeah, yeah. So for my brand, I kind of see it more as a platform now, right? So like

I want to work with different artists who normally work with different materials and turn those things and find a way to combine those with porcelain, right? So originally my idea was like, I had to create everything myself. But then I was like,

Instead of doing that, I know this craft, I know all these amazing techniques that normally people don't know about porcelain. People just think it's white and blue. People think all Chinese porcelain are white with blue decoration on it. But there's actually hundreds and hundreds different types of Chinese porcelain. And people just kind of forget about it.

And I think my job should be like learning all those different craft and bringing those back and combine those craft with like different people's art style. So for example, I would be,

I would talk to maybe like an oil painter and propose to him like your work would work really well with this type of like, you know, porcelain technique and we can do some kind of like product together and this will be how it's done. So that's kind of my job right now. I'm the person who turned different artists

IP or their lifestyle, their work style into porcelain work. I'm very excited to see what comes of that. So I'm wearing, not to plug this brand or anything because we don't have any sponsors, but I'm wearing, do you know the brand Telfar?

Yes. Oh, this is the Telfar White Castle collaboration. Yeah, it's the Telfar. So I'm wearing it because White Castles was founded in Ohio and its headquarters is in Columbus, which is where I live. And ironically, like, so when I bought this sweater, Telfar sent like a little note that went along with it. And it was basically like we started out this business and like no one believed in us.

And like people made fun of us because we made merch for a fast food chain, right? Because no one thinks that like a brand that is going to be a next luxury brand would ever do something like that. But the fact that he was even open to it, now he has all these like, you know, iconic collaborations.

So I'm excited for you to see like, what is thinking outside of the box look like for, you know, ceramics? Like maybe one day I'll have a ceramic phone case that would be kind of lit. You know what I mean? That is actually in development right now. Okay, great. Okay. I just, I'm on your website now too. So it's so exciting to think, like you said, like I honestly didn't even know that like,

This is bad. I studied China. I didn't realize there was such a diversity of Chinese porcelain, right? I mean, I think like, I don't know, there's just, I hear so much good and sort of learning that can come out of this. So I'm super excited that

You quit your corporate job and you're doing this. It's not you, EJ. Like 99% of Chinese people now just think like the Qing and Ming dynasty porcelain because those are the dynasties that's really like the closest to our modern life. And people just think, oh, that's all the porcelain we have, right? But like China has been making porcelain for at least like 4,000 years, right? So we have like all these different dynasties, all these different tribes, man, like many different styles of work.

And back then, you know, transportation was not easy. So you can only make porcelain with your local clay. And each different location has different clay and different plants. And all those mixed together comes out like different glazes. So you couldn't copy someone else because you don't have their clay, you don't have their plant. So that's why it's such a diverse range of porcelain. But because of war, because of recent history, you know, everything...

we just kind of forget about it. And my dream, actually my dream was this startup is more stable. I want to convert like a van into like a, you know, a moving studio, a moving ceramic studio. And I would just drive around China, go visit China,

like all these different Asian like Chinese production sites and like take clay from different places and make like a series of work, you know, that represent like and put that together into a map, you know, that's kind of like my dream project. Oh, if you make a map, I want, I love maps, as you can see. I have one there and I have the other one there. Yeah. That's so cool, Jackie.

Every little region will be independent clay, and that clay will be from that area, the dirt from the area. It reminds me why we call it Guanyang and Minyang. The Guanyang is the place to make ceramics by the government, and Minyang is just by the local people. So it's so different. Different places can create different proselytes and materials.

like it looks different and how they do it the process yeah the temperature like everything is different because like

different clay they couldn't hold up and like it has to be fired at different temperature, right? And some area doesn't have trees so they have to use bamboo, right? So if you use pine trees versus use bamboo to fire the porcelain, the result is very different. The ashes would like float around in the kiln and once it lands on the porcelain pieces, it would like form glazes and those glazes is very like unique. So that's why like

this endless potential with porcelain. That's what I like about it. So you as a trailblazer in a youthful ceramics, what advice would you offer to aspiring entrepreneurs looking to merge their passion and culture into a successful venture? I think like when you are young, it's very hard to, especially for a lot of Chinese kids. I know this, right? Because like when you are in a Chinese education environment,

you're not being taught really to follow your passion. So not really a lot of kids even have the opportunity to explore their passion, right? And passion is a very, very strong, strong word, I feel like. If you like doing something on the side while you're working, it's not a passion. Maybe it's a hobby, right? So if you work at a financial company and you like to make ceramic, yeah, that's your hobby, right?

So what is passion is if you do it every single day, you fail like every single day and you still do it. That's kind of like you, that can be maybe your passion, you know, and even if you fail like a hundred times, you still choose to do it for the rest of your life and try your very best to be at the very top of whatever career path you choose. That is your passion, right? So, yeah.

I would say even before that, just follow your curiosity, you know, and if you think something might work, try it out. You know, if you feel good about it, take another step forward. If you, if it doesn't feel right, just, you know, go back and try something else. Right.

Just explore many different things first. Follow your curiosity. Don't focus too much on the short run. Do it for a longer period of time to really test it out if that's really something you like to do or if something other people or society make you think you'd like to do. That's very different. So do it. Maybe don't even show it to other people. Don't even get comment. Just do it.

as if no one's watching and try it out. And that's what probably what I would tell people to do before they leave like a stable job and get into like a venture. So the thing is,

Doing a startup is very, very difficult. Like there's going to be a moment you just want to give up. So you have to make absolutely sure that's something you would sacrifice many other things for before you get into it. That's why I advise people to test it out before they jump into it.

Thank you. So at the end of our episodes, we like to ask or give our listeners a recommendation, right? Something that they can sort of follow up on and look after this. I'm wondering if perhaps you could give a recommendation on...

based off of your own journey experiences. If someone were to say like tomorrow, wanted to like maybe get jump-started in their artistic journey or look into ceramics or, you know, they have a business idea, what maybe tool, resource, thing might you recommend that they do, read, look at, watch?

Instagram. If you want to get feedback, share on Instagram, talk to people on Instagram, reach out to people on Instagram. Right now, with my new projects, I'm always talking to artists I like on Instagram. I'm like, hey, I really love your work. I do ceramic. Can we do a collaboration? And most people would say yes. At least they would be open to a discussion. So that's a very good tool to use. Another thing I would say is

YouTube, you know, like if you're interested in something and you are just like learning, you want to learn more about it, there's a bunch of great like free tutorials, you know, education videos on YouTube. You know, I didn't have an official like educational ceramic.

People actually attend colleges here, like at Ching Dejun for ceramic. I didn't have that four years of education. So a lot of my initial education was from YouTube. So I think that's a very good tool as well. Wonderful. Is there anything else you'd like to, I don't know, plug or promote or anything exciting coming on that people can be looking out for from you or your brand or your Instagram maybe?

Cool, yeah, yeah. I've been working on this idea, this project for the past two years now. I'm working on this project combining ceramic with fashion. So that has never been done before and I'm looking to work with fashion designers and like if you are interested in fashion or you buy a lot of, you know, like fashion, especially like

uh female like fashion like collectibles like maybe reach out to me and we can you know talk and see if we can do something cool together awesome and if people wanted to contact you you do want to share your like your instagram where can people find you and your brand yeah like we should put a link of my instagram my wechat and my website like down below somewhere in the link maybe or leave in a comment yeah so people can reach out to you yeah

Okay, so we'll put that in there. Yeah, you can definitely check out Jackie and his website at imfragilelab.com. So we'll definitely check that out. Thank you, Jackie, for sharing your story with us.

So good to hear you. Jackie's story truly exemplifies the power of blending cultural experiences, artistic creativity, and entrepreneurial spirit. Thank you for tuning in. We appreciate your support. And don't forget to share this podcast with your friends and communities. And please take a moment to rate, like, and leave us a comment. We read every comment and your feedback is greatly appreciated. We'll be back with another exciting episode next week. Until then, take care. Bye, everyone.

Bye. Bye. Thanks.