Dyche: Points Deductions, Amorim & Gardening For Clough | Stick to Football 83
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Hey, Short Dash is here, bro. Say hello to Short Dash. It was brilliant. Was it the Who Fired the Cannon? Yeah, that one, that one. It had to be the Who Fired the Cannon joke, yeah. So we're on there. Are you good? I'm very quiet. I know. I'm reading up. What are you reading up on? I got this in Paris. So, I love it, Jill. Do you like it? I'm reading up on... Oh, God, shit. Why do you bring your phone?

Are you liking having a new phone? Do you know what I am, actually? Oh, yeah? Yeah, it's like new me. It's a new me. It's a new me. It's like you've got to have a revamp. When we go on WhatsApp to you, the messages don't go through. Do you, like, turn your phone off? No, you can do the one that says no ticks. No ticks. Yeah. He doesn't know if you've read it or not. Yeah, that's the one, yeah. Do your messages to him do one tick? No. Your kids will know it. I think you've blocked us.

No, no. Do you have a WhatsApp group? I'm not on WhatsApp. No, no, I tell her... You're just not on the group.

And that. We have a little group message, don't we? Why are you not on WhatsApp? I'm the only one who responds to him. You are so rude. No, right, he did, actually. Thank you. He did. And I did. I hate WhatsApp. He did, yeah. No, I'm not. Are you sure? I came up with WhatsApp five years ago and I think I was right. WhatsApp? What are you talking about? WhatsApp? What, because you don't want to be in the groups? Yes, please. Yeah, thank you.

I don't like the fact that people just put you into a group. Yeah, they shouldn't be allowed to do that. I don't think they should be able to. Are you being an idiot?

You've been hunting the team now? That's a lot. If only they knew. Are you jealous? If only they knew. That should put up me red stripe. Yeah, exactly. Nodded up stories. I was telling the Thursday Club that story the other week. Loving it. Which one? Oh, thank you. No, that building the red stripe. Oh, yeah, they're brilliant. You don't have to go and buy them around, do you remember?

Do you live around here? No, I live in Nottingham. Oh, do you? Yeah, yeah. I like Nottingham, city centre. It's lovely. It's all right, it's all right. Me and Deja were a forest together. Yeah, yeah. Where were you then? Where were you? Our careers went the same way. Do you play together? No. Oh.

I'd gone to Chesterfield you'd come out of the League of Ireland you had a hangover period and I was in the playoffs you had a hangover period you brought about five years yeah five years you were gone no you were there when I was there but you were not on loan that kind of after that season how old was you then I see how old was you Sean so I was young first year pro so I'd have been 19

I'd be right wouldn't it was in 90 yeah when you got to Chesterfield when you were playing was it 90 you come on that would have been 90 yeah no 90 that's a sore point 90 or 91 no I think 90 yeah after 90 yeah that would be right then 90 yeah yeah so I went on to Chesterfield in 90 yeah that's when we were living together and then we'd go and watch the playoffs yeah of course you used to live together did you only for a bit because you'd come in the digs didn't you

Remember down at Colwick Road? Yeah, I was kind of moving around, wasn't I? Yeah. Going and dabbing. I'll be all over. I just couldn't settle. No, I did. They were all young pros. Yeah, but Diggs, yeah. So we stayed in the forest, Diggs, but then you had one year and then after that they kicked you out, you know what I mean? So he'd come in and stay in there for a bit and a few of the lads would stay there and then we'd disperse off to get Diggs. How many people could be there at one time? Was it a massive place or something? The original one before Keane was there when I was an apprentice was 2,000. It was a fantastic crack.

So there'd be like 13 or 14 lads in there. The old couple used to look after us, the old Geordie couple actually, Tom and Olive were amazing. And they'd be chasing us around the house and all sorts. And then over the road there was a smaller house where if you became a pro, you were allowed to live in the other house. So you stayed over there with us. And you know when they did the front room, it was like a TV room, but then one of the front rooms was a bedroom upstairs and all that. Was there four? Was there four of us? Was it me, you, Stan...

Was it Stoney? Stan was there, definitely. Stan Collymore? No. No, a lad called Craig Bawley. That's what I was thinking. Did you have curfews? Well, sort of. No, not when you're a pro. Not when you're a pro's house. No, but in the big one. In the under-18s, yeah. I used to be hilarious. We had to be in my 12th.

So he used to come in and you'd just run up the stairs and we'd shout, it's Stoney. Tom and Oliver would chase him. I'd be like, why you bugger, Stoney? I get you, man. It's Stoney, it's Stoney. I've got a note here that you used to garden for Brian Clough.

Yeah, not... No, it's like... A full-time job. I was going to say, my dude, the way I was made all the time. You said, you got a better chance, young man, of being a gardener? No, we used to come round the digs and basically... Or send the note round saying, get three or four of the lads. So they're called Chas. Do you remember Chas? He used to do all the groundsmen. Good guy. Yeah.

He used to jump in his car, drive us over to his house. And you just have to do the garden. You love this stuff, don't you? I just loved it. Clough would do that sort of stuff, get for the lads and get them to come and do my garden. No, there's some brilliant ones. He had this lovely house, really long gardens, right down the bottom.

We found a tennis ball, but we could see it over like a little hedge sort of thing. So one of the lads goes, go on, fucking get it. Sorry. Go on, get it. So he goes running over, does the old, you know, sort of flops over. He gets the tennis ball. So now the other lads, I think it was Stan or someone, goes jumping over. So we're now playing our tennis over. So Cliffy comes up and he goes, hey, you, get out of the neighbour's garden. Get out of the neighbour's garden, you house. Yes. Anyway, so we're like, what are you doing? He goes, we found a ball. We're playing our tennis. He goes, well done. LAUGHTER

Keep playing. Brilliant. So there weren't a lot of gardening done by that. He just seemed to launt the lads around. Sometimes they find him. I remember Lee Glover was a naughty boy once on tour and his fine was to go out to Cloughy's house every day and do his garden instead of finding money. Wow. Did you do his garden? No.

Because did you go in as a pro then? Yeah. That's what you didn't know, actually, because you're the old reducer. I never got that. You're out there in my garden, you know what I mean, just to teach you a lesson. No, but obviously I was well behaved. I didn't have to go. Yeah. Very quiet and unassuming. Mm.

By the way, did you see him down? He's just been done 10 points. I went, hey! I've never even been told anything about it. Football's going in the wrong direction now and I think there's an uprise and I think even fans, they go, I'm bored, I'm getting bored of it. You know, I keep hearing CDM.

I'm going, what about just being a midfielder when you used to run up there and try and score and used to run back there and stop it going in that corner? I said, it's too simple. Everyone's a number, aren't they? Playing with two soft nines. I was a soft 16. He said quite clearly he's not going to change the way he plays.

you better win some games then pretty quick I reckon if I went there and played my way I reckon I'd win more games the diving for me has got excessive I think it's ridiculous sitting there you'd actually young at Everton Ely what have you been up to Sean

Just to be honest, we were just saying loads of stuff comes your way. You know, it's like media stuff and I've done quite a lot down and they're just life stuff. Game of golf, my lad plays, he plays at Northampton Town so I've been watching him play which has been great. I've seen him play more times than I've done in the last four or five years.

My daughter's away at university. She's doing a psychology degree. She did the Roman marathon. So I managed to go out there. Yeah, that was great. I managed to go out there and watch her do that. So that was brilliant. Really enjoyed that. Did a bit for the LMA. I went to Hong Kong for the LMA. Massive charity called Laureus. So, you know, I was in the Laureus sports. That was good. Went to Lake Como, see Seth Fabregas with the FA. Right. Yeah.

You know, just to throw some thoughts around and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, just all sorts of bits and bobs. A couple of beers, now and again. So, we've obviously had managers on before that obviously have, you know, come out of work. And how are you in that first few weeks when you come out? I'm all right. I've always been all right with that sort of stuff. Look, you know, when it's not going right, I thought the timing was right to protect what had gone on, really. I mean that sincerely. You know, more as you'll tell you.

I just felt that we'd done what we could, took it through a tough period. The players are beginning to get that thing, you know, you all know it when you can see them. The pressure of it, the weight of it was getting too much. I'm used to it, because that's what you do as a manager, but I just thought it needs something to change. Either we change it by we get a result, and sometimes it all just changes, or you change the situation. So I spoke to Kev Thelwell, I said, look, been in a long time now, you can smell it, it's changing.

My contract was up in the summer, so you don't know how that's going to go. But I just had that thing that when I got there, it was in really poor shape. That's nothing to do with the managers, nothing like that. I mean, the whole business was in really awful shape. And we'd kind of navigate, not just me, by the way, Kev Thale, my staff, the players, everyone played a part, navigating it through. And you know, you just feel it dwindling. I thought, right, I'm not going to leave it when it keeps going down like that.

We need to leave it when someone's got a chance. And it was in good shape. And I'm not humming for saying that, but now it's been proved right because Moyes came out and said, no, he's right. He said it was in good shape. They just lost that bit of edge that players lose sometimes. You know, when you were getting ready to go, did you know how bad of shape they were in? No. No, no, no. Because they're never going to tell you the truth. They're never going to sit there and go, by the way, it's in absolute dire straits. But you get in there within...

A week ago, like, oh, my goodness, what is going on here? Could you have gone there a couple of years before? No, there was a lot of talk of it, but it never came to fruition, no. And I think the timing was about right, because if you... You know that weird thing, if you go there a couple of years before, before you even get in there, it's kind of the flow, the tidal flow's against you, you know? It's like, what are you on him for? Whereas when I got in there, I think 50-50 at least, where people went, you know what, he probably could do with someone like him, you know what I mean? So I think it would have been... So what's that look like when you go in and then all of a sudden, after a week, you realise, jeez.

I'm coming in now and it's a night, it's a shit show. You know what I mean? How do you blast through that? What do you do?

Well, you have to sort of strip it. Well, my idea was to strip it back. And I was trying to re-find Lincoln like a modern view of the ever-past. You know, there was all these stories of Dogs of War and how tough it was to play there and all that. They'd gone through all these different transitions with different managers on the pitch. You know, some playing out of the bat, some three-to-past in your own box, which is modernism now, of course. I'm sure we'll go on to that in a bit. And then, you know, trying to get it back to a bit more edge to it all and sort of regroup a little bit. And I thought we somewhat got there.

So that was the main thing, to get the players all... But did you enjoy it outside? Is that apparently your stranger thing, getting people together? Yeah, I think the thing was, it wasn't they were... By the way, they weren't not trying or anything. Of course, yeah. But just the simple things, you know. I mean, people make a big deal of it, but, you know, like, I do the yo-yo test, right? And it's only because I've got years of the stats. So they're going on a hard line, and I was going, just trying to see if they fit or not. And they weren't. Three of the midfield players come last.

And I thought, oh, there's trouble there. That was him? We were talking about this just before. It's just pre-season. If I did late night. That must be quite... Three midfielders coming last must be something. No, but that's when you go like, you know what, I'm going, hang on a minute. This is where we need to start changing it all around. Your midfielders should be first thought. Were they actually the unfittest or was it like a mentality thing? No, that's the thing. Well, these are all right. Things like the O-tests, I'll tell you, it just shows you both. Who's going to get back on the line and keep going? And who's going to sort of after that weird thing, oh, I'm really tired, and you go like, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he does both. It's either a literal test of stats when you look at the stats and you go, right, this is where it's at. Yeah. Or you've got a visual test when you look and go, right, let's see the brothers and riders. Yeah. Because before you worry about anything or the thing that I think about football, you need people to try. You'd be surprised how many footballers you think, you even try it. It's a strange business nowadays. So we need to get the tryers on the pitch before we worry about anything. Yeah. Who was managed before you? Frank. Frank. Frank, right? Yeah. Yeah.

But Frank, like I say, there's no question I know the manager here, right? Because Frank's a good guy. I got on well with him. I spoke to him as soon as we came out there, as soon as I saw him at the LMA, do it at the end of that first year. We were chatting about the players and all that. Different managers have different ways of trying to make it work. It's not easy. If it was easy, everyone would do it. Of course. It'd be really easy. Jamie Carragher called it the worst-run club in football, I think, to be fair, about three, four, five years ago, maybe before you took the job. I mean, you've a lot... Writers just called it a shit show. Can you just describe...

The uncertainty and instability that's actually occurred at Everton in this last few years. Obviously, there's been the financial stuff, the points deductions, the triple eight sort of money coming in and then them leaving, the ownership being all over the place. How did that impact you? Well, it's not like literally a daily thing, but mainly it's the media side because you're answering as soon as you're going there. You're answering how you're going to solve the chaos. And you're going, you know, before you even kick the ball.

So you've got the business, so at the time, you probably know this, but to remind anyone who doesn't, so the chairman couldn't come to a game, the chief exec couldn't come to a game. Ben Sharp. Ben Sharp. Just about come to a game. Sharpie couldn't come to a game. Great fellow as well, by the way. Legend, great fellow. Couldn't come to the game. And you're going, right, that ain't ideal, is it? You know, they're not allowed to a game because they're going to get hammered and death threats and booze and all that.

So you have to try and sort of part that a little bit. And the team at the time are getting questioned, you know, and the whole club's getting questioned about everything. And it's always in that shadow, which you've heard about many other clubs. You know, we're a big club. And you go, yeah, but it's not in a big club state. It's a big club. There's no two ads about it. Big following and all that. But it's not in the shape of a big club and how it should be.

So then you have to go, right, what can we affect? And the first thing to affect, you've got to win a game, obviously. I mean, you know, you've got to get it over the line. And it was, you know, I think we, game 20 and we had 15 points. So you're already kind of like, it's a tough one, this. And then you go off to a flyer, it's going to be Arsenal. But even that, everyone thought it was solved, you know, in the dressing room. And I'm going, who are these lot all jumping around for? Seriously, I was like, lads, whoa, whoa, whoa. I said, cool, you juts. There's a lot more work to this. It's just one step.

Because I'm looking and going, you ain't good enough to keep beating Arsenal every week. Right. You know what I mean? So then you just keep with that platform of your training plan. And then, you know, you've got a lot of games coming. You need to get them fitter. Not fitter. You need to get them your fit. Sorry, your fit. That's a better way of putting it. Because each manager has their different way of playing. So we have to get them the fit that I think they should be. Yeah.

Sharper mentally, and I basically went to strong, fit and organised. I think, right, well, first things first, how are we going to get this just to get it over the line? Strong, fit and organised. I thought, if we get that bit right, I still think there's enough talent here who are going to pull off a goal or a set piece or whatever. So we went big on that, strong, fit and organised, which I do anyway. But, I mean, that was a clear line. Told them, this is where we're going, lads. This is how we're going to do it. This is what we need to do.

Do you always have that or would you go in and think, sometimes do you have to let your standards drop if you think you can't get the players to that or is that like a non-negotiable? Like, is that your way?

Well, I've only ever done it that way. But I think, you know, it's the old favourite, the culture of a dressing room is different, but there shouldn't ever be that big a difference where you can't at least be professional, you know, work hard and fit. That should be a responsibility. Yeah. So I know that you're asking whatever dressing room you went in, you know, if you went in a team of world stars, you know, I don't know, if you're in Real Madrid, they should at least go, look,

but you should be able to be, you know, strong-fitting and organised. You should know, if we tell you what you need to do, you should know the game if you're a top player. You should know you've got to look after yourself. You should know that. It should be a given. It's often not, by the way. So I'm not really asking anything peculiar. And then there was a big thing of being simple stuff. Obviously, it makes me laugh now. But, like, when Shinbad's in training, they're like, oh, you know...

I'm wearing white socks, I still can't get my head around that. I make a lot of noise because of my sore feet. It's funny all them players before you. So you were asking them to wear shin pads in training? Yeah. And there was a big throwback. I hate you wearing shin pads in games. Yeah, but I think it takes the training, because we went through that change. I think the training's not as competitive. If I see you in white socks, you're not going to absolutely nail you. Right, so I know you.

No, but it's fair. By the way, there's a million lines out there. No, no, no. Explain to us what you're saying about... But you're also putting America down. Would you give them permission to kick each other? You must have looked at his shin pads and gone, does that mean you're going to win on a Saturday? Probably not. I'm just getting a few pointers across...

Yeah, getting a feel, a different feel to what was there. And I go, you're right. And so I come out and Moisey says, you can wear what you want. Because he's undermining me. He goes, right, let's change the feel. So you're right. That's clever management. Why wear chimpanzo? Because of the competitive element. It definitely changes it. I would have tried to be as hard and as fast as we could make it. I mean, you're never going to get...

full competitive like a game, but, you know, push it as hard as you can. And like you say, just to lay down a little different feel, like, no, this is the way we do it. And snoods and all that. I was like, no, no, the rule was you can't wear it in a game. So you can wear anything you want that you can wear in a game, you can wear in training.

You want to wear some tights, you can wear them. You want to wear six layers, you can, because you're allowed to do it in a game. You can't wear snood in a game. And by the way, if someone does pull you, you never know nowadays. You catch someone, strong, strong athletic fellas, you know. Because you feel you have to apologise for these, as if you're explaining yourself all the time. Yeah, it's really weird. And you go like, can we just get on with it? And yet you've got like Ashley Young,

Brilliant. You know, you're just going, OK, well, let's get out of there. Let's crack on. You know, not with them guns. You need that to get out and train. I'm kind of like, come on. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybest. Afila One, a whole new electric car from Sony Honda Mobility.

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Thumbtack.

Download the app today. Obviously Everton haven't been successful for a long, long time now. It's a huge club and you say it's not in a huge club state, which is fair enough. I think Everton fans would accept. It's getting better. It wasn't. What is it about the club that basically has failed the fans in the last 10, 15, 20 years from a point of view of the money they've spent? Not now in the last few years because they've been struggling in the last few years, but what is it that's failed their fans?

that you can see of a mentality. Eventually, you always go around... You know, it's no one's exact fault because there's a number of people, by the way. It's not just one person. Like, Mr Mishu took a lot of stick, but he wasn't making every decision. He's not deciding, you know, there's...

30 people in the offices who have got jobs. He's not running that every day. Who was running the club? Recruitment's the hardest thing. John, who was running the club when you got there? Who ran the club? Well, kind of some of the people in the offices were still running the business. I kept that while I was trying to... Well, me and Kev, we were trying to pull together things like common sense, contracts, who are we going to have to sell, where we've got to sell, so-and-so. Playing players, imagine this, right? You guys in your job, right? Of course, you're playing a nasty job. You have to do what you do, right?

But you know when you're inside and they're going, oh, you know, I was playing everyone. People are going, right, okay, the brief is I've got to bring money in. So whether I like them or not, some of them are playing because I've got to try and sell them. And you know he's over you. They can get the same money for them if they're not playing or they're bidden. So you have to try and play them and still win a game. And then you're trying to play them well enough that you can win a game. Then you're trying to win a game just to bring some money in because if you don't get the money in, you're done.

So then the next season I'm sitting there in Dubai and I get this phone call, international break by the way, obviously. And I get the answer. Before anyone's going, he should have sat there doing that. And then I'm like, by the way, are you sitting there? I'm from CAFEL. And I went, what's up? And I'll go back to you and he goes, what's up? And he goes, we've just been done 10 points. I went, eight? I've never even been told anything about it. I was like, are you kidding me? I was like, what on earth is going on here? Did you get a call from the

Did you say, that's in that cocktail? No, I said, get me five. I mean, imagine that, and you go like, hang on a minute, where is that snowboard from the day I walked into there? How has that happened without any form of me knowing anything apart from... That's the point, though. Who is running it? Who's the responsible person on the ground running the club that's mismanaging the finances, that's making those decisions? Well, it's not... One thing to be clear on, one thing I learned, it's not as simple as that. The legal...

You know, the legal amount of different ways you can look at the finance, different ways they can put money here and there and there and there. It's not quite as simple as going, you know, you're only allowed to do that, that and that. So there's all sorts of different accounting models and everything. So your account model against their account model against, you know, the Premier Leagues and all that sort of stuff. So it's not quite as simple as who's just making up the decisions.

But don't forget, one thing you've got to remember, and I'm not patronising anyone with that statement, is you've got all these fans going, why aren't we signing so-and-so? So you're sort of trying, to be fair to the ownership, you're sort of trying to keep them on board a little bit. Look, we're doing what we can, you know, we're trying to sign so-and-so. But then, you know, when you sign so-and-so, you've got to get rid of you to sign so-and-so. So there's lots of different things. So I'm not going to put blame on any one person. I think there was a lot going on. Who offered you the job shot? Who was the person that you met when you first got the job?

So Bill Kemwright, rest his soul, obviously, as chairman, and Kath Thelwood, they were the main two. Then after that initial kind of just zoom call, quite casual, then it was like Mr. Mishiri as well. Met the three of them, and they were the main ones then. They'd obviously gone to people like Sharpie, and I'm going, what do you think? I think, you know, behind that, but it was mainly them three who kind of appointed me. And even then, you know, they're not, they want to sell you the positivity, don't they? So it's like, oh, you know, we can do this and we can do that.

And then about an hour into the job, you go, that ain't going to happen. You know what I mean? And then the reality starts hitting straight away. Did they tell you there was very little money in the interview?

Well, they said that the idea was that with a trading model and all the terminology you would come out with, by the time the summer comes, we'll be in a better position and we can do this, do that, do that. It wasn't quite that scenario, obviously. But there was a lot. Like I say, it seems really simple for everyone on the outside to just go, well, why didn't they just do that, that and that?

But when you're in there and you realise what's going on, I'd like to say you've got to remember all along this journey is a demand from 40,000, at least 40,000, just in a stadium every week, going, why aren't we doing this? I mean, there's some funny things, I tell you. We took the team to Evian, a beautiful place. We'd been there before with Burnley. Where the water's from. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the actual place. Yeah, they're beautiful. It's beautiful. It's fair, wouldn't you? Yeah. France, actually. France, yeah. The lake, so...

So we're on this side and we get off to this game. We're just playing this little, you know, in the pre-season, just a little game. And I saw one of the fans, he went, why aren't you signing two centre-forwards? Giving it to me. And I went, are you kidding me? I'm the only manager of all time who doesn't want to sign two centre-forwards. Because, you know, fans are demanding. The fans are like, why aren't we doing this? They go, we're like millions and millions and millions and millions and millions in debt. And they're going, why aren't you signing? I'm going, and you're trying to...

sort of manage that. You're trying to, through the media, going, you know... Do you think you made a mistake taking the job? No, I don't think so. I said recently, I did a thing for Talk Sport with my mate, Johnny Owen, and we were going through it about...

I couldn't be more proud of what we've done. Not just me, but loads of people. After what you've been told and then you get into it after a week. But you know, a lot of managers go into jobs, you almost, I'm sure you'll learn from it in future days, you don't believe everything they're telling you in that sense. Expect the worst when you go into a job. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I don't think there was no score to agree. I think they were just trying to paint a picture, look, it's going to be better and we'll support you for it to be better. Yeah.

But then the rally hits quite quickly. And then when the points direction come along, you know, really, is that better? You know, and it started getting more challenging then. Weirdly, that kind of galvanized it all.

And then, you know, the even more difficult thing, to be honest, and I don't mind sharing it with you, is that you guys are doing your job. But guess what? I'm doing all this. And you're going, ah, didn't have enough passes at the back and all that. I'm going, really? That's the least of my worries, trust me. Because you've got all that demand. Why aren't you playing this way? Why aren't you playing that way? Why aren't you playing them? Why aren't you, you know, inverting the wide players more than you normally do and all that. Is that good for you? Really? And you think we're worried about that, actually, and I'm cutting you out.

Who was that coming from, Sean? Let's try and win a game. Who was that coming from, Sean? I've never watched Everton and thought, I think they should play more passes. The fans, to be fair, usually are a little bit negative towards playing out from the back. What I'm saying is the swell becomes different. My goal with this group of players and the whole club is to guide it through a shitstorm, as you've described it, right?

But the reality is it's not that. So everyone's going, yeah, but why aren't you doing this and why aren't you doing that and why aren't you doing this and why are you not playing them? Do you get what I mean? Because there is no reality. From the day you went in to the day you left, was it like survival? Obviously you've got to go through a period. You know, the hardest thing, the biggest achievement actually made more trouble was the fact that with the adjusted points at the end of that season, it would have been 10th, I think. We didn't finish 10th or 12th.

But guess what, the fans then presuppose, well, if we finish 10th, we should be 8th next year. They go, we ain't got no money, we're not signing anyone, these are the group players, are we going to be the same old, same old? And yet it's like reinventing, you know, selling chocolate teapots. You're going, what are we going to do with that? So that's the most difficult thing. We talk about the points deduction, haven't we, like in the past, but I always wonder, like, how does that impact the players? You know, when you actually have to... They were really good. The fans were brilliant, by the way, I must say. They didn't, because they could have gone even more superpowered against the whole...

You know, the whole situation and the owner and all that. They were brilliant. The players were first class. The second time, I think the one that knocked us was after the second one, I think they thought we were going to get more points back.

And they just kind of went, oh, we'll give you six we've got. And then they went, oh, but there's another two coming. And they were like, really? That was the one that really knocked it. So the players were like, here we go again. You know what I mean? We had a really awful run then. And then we turned it around. We got smashed at Chelsea, probably one of my worst nights as a manager. And yet, ironically, we turned that around and then just went woof and just went flying again. You know, that's sometimes football. They need a, I call it bottoming out. They needed a bottom out moment. Not just me, the players. Yeah.

Where it's almost like they all look at you and go, hang on a minute, that's miles from it. That's miles away from it. Do you always think as well of a manager when you're up against it in the league and all these challenges, but a cup run would have been nice to take you, wouldn't it? If you could have got, was it Fulham at home? Was it a quarter? Yeah. Like a trip to Wembley, could have gone, you know what I mean? Yeah, he'd shipped it, yeah. No, I'm not against it, but I'd seen him do it in training to be fair, right? And he did nail it a lot. But you know what I was thinking? I'm understanding the guy, oh, don't do that.

And Jordan, to be fair, had three chances to save one and all that. And, you know, you go, no, come on, just give us a twist of fate. Yeah. And that did knock us, you know. Yeah. I remember watching that, yeah. Because we were motoring a bit. And it sort of took the steam out of us. You know, as a collective, it was almost like, oh, you know. So, Rod, your battles in the league, it's kind of a trip to, you know...

A nice real cup on a semi-final would have given a big boost, wouldn't it? But I think, you know what, you guys played in really successful groups and stuff, and I think that's the difference. When something like that can defuel you quite quickly, I'm like, hang on a minute. You know, deep down as a man, you go, we're not solved it here. Because if that defuels you that quickly, we're in trouble. Whereas the marvel of the best teams and successful teams, even ones at my relative level that I played in, was going, yeah, that's done, right, let's crack on, let's take the next one on. So that was a...

weirdly an underlying worry for the manager. It would have been a boost for the supporters, wouldn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I mean is, the players, when I thought, hang on, you've gone under a bit after what, just because we lost a cup game on a penalty? I was like...

But that was when I thought, hmm, that ain't right. You know, when you did get the spell where it just started to, you see a little bit of light, could you, was there any kind of enjoyment or do you think, oh, this isn't going to last? Yeah, the enjoyment, the weird enjoyment is sorting it all out a little bit. You know what I mean? The enjoyment of, I remember when Decorey scored against Bournemouth. I remember literally going home and just having a glass of wine and going...

That was it. I was actually deflated because I thought, we shouldn't be in this mess. It shouldn't be like this, you know what I mean? And I said after the game, I said, lads, no running around going, you know, whooping and hollowing and spraying champagne about. I said, we need to change this. We shouldn't be here. End of. It's sort of underwhelming, but sort of pleasing because, you know, you've helped play your part in guiding it to a better moment, you know?

So it's kind of, I don't know, the enjoyment, it's an odd enjoyment. I thought the process at Burnley was more enjoyable because it was, and the dogs, you're winning games, you're knocking a few of the big fellas over, you know, and all that sort of stuff.

Whereas at Everton, it was like a constant grind. It was like, oh, you know, everything is like, oh, another chance. I mean, apart from beating Liverpool, because that was great for the fans, first game against Arsenal, the Decore goal, which was an awful week, an awful game. Never want to go through that again. It's awful. But a magic moment. I've never heard a crowd like that ever. Honestly, I swear to you, I've never heard a crowd go as mad as that.

So there are some magic moments when you do enjoy it, but it's a weird kind of enjoyment at a club like Everton trying to bring it through this process. It's more the achievement of going, at least it's intact, because it would get very close to just going really badly wrong. Do you buy into this theory that maybe exists that probably everybody in this new stadium is going to fix things?

No, that was another thing. It's strange how I think, I think it's partly my character, but people go, no, you must be good, you're not going to take them to the stadium. I was like, no, not at all. It's going to be there 100 years. You know, it's got nothing to do with me. I didn't build it. You know, to me, I just wanted to win a game, that was all, and try and be successful. So I'd never, a million miles from my thoughts, you know, stuff like that. I've never really bothered with that sort of stuff. You know, I've been all right with that sort of stuff. And,

and Moyes was brilliant I don't know why people are going oh you know he must be gutted why brilliant we left it in decent chat I said that and he's gone on settled it down added his new twist like you say and give it a different feel some of the players rise a bit more and then won some games they couldn't be more happy but Burnley when they come out of Burnley they all go no he must be lying they went down they went absolutely not so nine and a half years of graft and then they've gone down why would I want that

I'm more talking about the actual club in terms of the club's struggled for quite a while now, Everton, but do you feel like this new stadium will bring the club a more prosperous future where they're not, to be fair, fighting relegation, they're not sort of down... No, do you? Because you know, right, well, no, probably different, right, Arsenal, right? They're getting the new... Do you remember there was a bit of a weird... Yeah. Who, not who, I bet everyone's going, oh, I'm not sure. Yeah. And over time, it becomes the new Arsenal. Yeah.

So you don't know, do you? How's that going to affect them? The old, you know, the grand old lady and the feeling and the fans on top of you. You can't go, how do you measure that until you go out there and do it? And it still comes down to having good players, of course. They're going to need more players, Everton, to be more successful than what they are doing. They're going to need more players and an improvement on them. Not necessarily, I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, but it's quite obvious after years of hovering and sort of nowhere land, well, they're going to need me more.

So that might change things. But the actual stadium, I don't know, there's all these stories, you've witnessed one, and you know, I say it's different, I'm travelling, I'm transiting, but you know what I mean? Some clubs thrive off it, some clubs they need it so badly. I think most people, although the history of Goodison, I think most of the fans thought, we've got to change here. It was costing a lot of money just to keep it, you know, health and safety and all that. So I think everyone really in the end goes, it's got to go. What was your favourite memory of Goodison?

As a manager? I think the Decorio one, like I say, the heaven and hell of that moment. Awful week. We had injuries galore. We had to change the system. Five at the back playing a winger and a midfielder. Jimmy played right back. Twyman Hill played left back. People just playing all over the place. And we won. So the heaven and hell of that has got to mean something because that made sure the club at least had a good breathe and moved forward. The response to the points deduction in the first one was amazing from the players. Yeah.

Probably overridingly because probably the biggest weight I felt in football was after the Chelsea game when everyone was going, no, they're gone and all that and the fans turned on you and all that. So to come out after that and go bang, bang, bang, bang, including the Liverpool win, that's very pleasing as a manager because you've got to guide through that awful experience. You've got to go and face the media. You've then got to do the media building up for the next game and go, how are we going to come out of this?

So rather than one moment, that's like a week's way of handling, as manager, handling an awful situation in one week and turning it around ready for the next week and then winning. They're not only winning, going win, win, including Liverpool, win. And then you're safe and you go, that's a good week's work. After that, after that, what's just happened? Yeah. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybest.

You managed, obviously, at Burnley for many years and then you've gone to Everton for a few years. Your Burnley team were, you mentioned the phrase, dogs of war before. You could not find a harder working team than that Burnley team. Did you find that in the Everton dressing room that work ethic wasn't the same level as you had at Burnley?

I don't think it wasn't the same. It's just a different, you're dealing with different characters, different players, you know, different skill sets. You can't expect them all to just be like robots and all alike. So I think the difference was at Burma they just began to believe in it because obviously their careers were growing, the whole club was growing. So you believe in what you're doing. You know, they're going, right, why should we start messing around with all this? Because they're all getting bonuses and contracts and doing quite nicely out of it.

So I think it was a longer process at Everton. We tried to build a bit of that, but not taking away the fact that we had maybe a bit more talent, you know, in certain players and stuff like that, different ways of trying to operate. So, yeah, I think it was two different, completely different clubs, obviously, but different groups of players, you know, and I think some of them burning parts were very underrated, you know.

Because, you know, the mass perception of what you do, you know, it's like, but you remember all the Brexit football and all that. You know, I used to go to this all the time, right? It's interesting. I went to Everton and answered all these questions. Didn't mean to, but you can't manage it. You'll never manage a big club. Well, big club in turmoil. That's one thing. Can't manage foreign players. Well, there are lots of foreign players. Creed's culture, everything you can imagine at Everton. So at least I've ticked that box. Because at Burnley, it used to be, I won't do this, I won't do that. You know the truth at Burnley? The board used to say to me, we don't want to make mistakes.

So therefore, you'd go back to your knowledge, right? And you'd find youth team coaches and head of education to go back and look at players and their past. So we were trying to assign good characters. And in that, you know, it's funny, you know, in the media, I remember this, I mean...

Sean, is it fair to say you only sign good characters? I went, oh yeah, you don't want to sign any good characters, would you? You don't want to sign good characters? I couldn't believe it. It was like some kind of magic weapon. Who wants to sign a load of divs? You know what I mean? Who wants that? You can swear. Yeah, I didn't know that. Fuck, you've told me that. Is there any player who's like,

when you look back on the players you've managed who's totally exceeded their expectation just through sheer determination and like as you Barnes I used to have a joke with him he was playing at Poulton Rovers and that you know like 15 years ago see what he's done in the game I'm telling you he's a fourth promotion every day with Burnley fourth promotion with the same side

I mean, I scored a goal in the Championship, they all just get promoted, came down, did it again, scored goals in the Premier League, done a crew shirt, carries on. You know, players like that. Scotty Harfield, I mean, Scotty Harfield, Scotty Harfield, right, the first season we got promoted, so Dave Jones, you'll remember Jonah, in fact, on a free transfer, half his knee missing, but unbelievably fit pro, amazing, free transfer. Tommy in free transfer, just got relegated, he's my first ever signer, got hammered for signing him.

because we lost Lee Grant to Derby and Scotty Arfield and Scotty Arfield was going to go to MK Dons or Southend and we signed him and he got promoted to the Premier League on about £1,800 a week

and then ends up leaving all them years later playing in the Premier League scoring goals doing amazing in Scotland and let's say he's coming to play off and you just go like that's a brilliant story for me I go brilliant pick a kid who's going to Southend and not just from the same clubs but because of Burnley it changes his life yeah and I think I love stuff like that you know Barnsley's sort of similar so many of them though you know I don't know other players who just you know sort of tumbling along their career doing alright Ben Meade the growth of Ben Meade you know from being a left back

I knew deep down he was centre-half. Put him in centre-half, never looked back. Tarky, Tarky had to sit behind Keno, you know, Michael Keane. Had to sit behind him for like months waiting for his chance, but trained like mad every day. I said, Tarky, I said, I'll tell you, when it comes, you'll be ready. Never looked back. Tarky, my, these people, you know, the goal is giving everything. Popey, Popey come out of the blue.

he was another guy who seemed to do well goalies who get relegated he got relegated at Charlton but you know what even then I'll tell you a story right so Billy Mercer the goalkeeping coach he tells me about these lads Tom Eaton I was going to sign him at Watford and I got the sack and I had a meeting with him and I promised his agent I said I'll come back

for Tommy in I said I'll come back and I did I got the Bernie job and I signed him and he got relegated and I got battered for it he's a good lad Tommy brilliant good keeper really really good keeper fantastic you know things like that they're brilliant stories for me as a manager and the staff as well but so many of them stories so many people who sorry Popey Popey got relegated to Charlton signed for like 1.2 million monster I noticed him he's decent he's learning he's moving he was desperate for the chance

and Tom got injured and I threw him in out of the blue never looked back some keeper I tell you Joe Joe you know Joe I had to leave Joe out of injury Joe was brilliant but we were getting we couldn't win a game and he was actually the one that was playing he told this story fairly by the way later on in life

Because they were asking him about me dropping him, basically. Because he'd actually been playing well, but we couldn't win a game. And in the end, I just told him the truth. Because I don't like lying to players. I said, Joe, you're the only person I haven't tried. It's just my gut feeling. I'm going to put Tom back in. So that's it. There's no reason other than that.

And he was obviously... He's like, well, that's the best reason. But later on in life, he went, no, he told me the actual truth. The actual truth. Because I could have made up some story, you know, and all that. Sometimes you think, no, just tell them the truth. But there's so many stories, sorry, of different people. I've only named a few there, but amazing some of the players I've worked with. Are you looking to get back in? I'm not at the moment. I think...

Well, for one, the timing is wrong anyway. But no, I think taking a breath... The timing's wrong with what? Just because it's the end of the season? Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, sorry, not my timing. I mean, you know, clubs are all just going to have this time to fathom out and see what they're doing and all that sort of stuff. God,

I got offered a couple of things straight away and I just went, no, it's not for me now. And then wait and see what comes. I mean, you know, you never say never. It's like with the Everton thing, I was going along all right, living my life, enjoying having a break from it, doing a few media bits and quite enjoying charity bits and other things I do. And then the Everton one comes up and then you feel that bug. Or you don't. You know, you either get that taste in your mouth or you go, no, that's not for me. So it's not an exact moment in time.

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What's the most important factor of the next job? Would it be, do people like, I hear managers going, it's the ownership. Is it the size of the club or is it the full package? I love that. After having what happened to Everton, would you think it's more to be owners or the size of the club? Sometimes I see other managers going, yeah, it needs to be the right colour. I'm like, all the best with that. How are you going to find a job with the right owners, the right fans, the right owners, the right stadium, the right training? Yeah, all the best with that. So you just go, right, what's going to come out?

I would imagine. You'd hope to think you've got a bit more, but I would imagine most people think I'm a firefighter now, so they go, you know, get the big hose out and start doing that. Okay, that's your job. But are you fine with that? What's wrong with that? I know perception can be wrong on a manager, but if you go, if that's what people think of me and that's how I walk, that's what makes me successful? No, you spawn. Spawn. So rightly so, agreeing with you, when I went in at Everton,

They were asking me about the end of the first season. I went, no, no, I know I've been bought in it. I said, no mistake. I said, what's wrong with that? I said, business is around the world bringing different CEOs or managers or whatever to do a different job and take them forward in a different way. Mine was to manage a semi-crisis or chaos situation. That was my actual job.

They weren't bringing me in. Trust me, they weren't bringing me in. Yeah, you know, Sean, I want you to play 3-4-3 and get the goalie to chip out over the centre forward. He goes, he does fine and keeps in the Premier League and keep the money coming in. Yeah. That was my job. That was my remit. And you're right, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm like, no, if you want that job, do it. And then I'm probably going to have a good go at it. I can't guarantee it, but I'm going to have a good go at it. I'm going to get a handle on it. Yeah. So...

No, I'm not scared of that at all. If someone needs that, I'm going to go, look, this is the job, this is where we're at. You're the clean-up guy and then we get one of the fashionistas in after you. Tell you one thing, it pays well. You just touched on style. I mean, pretty much you're aware of the fact that ultimately, your style, you play more direct, you don't play...

Only six side bucks, we centre-backs. I mean, we've talked about this a lot this season, I think, on this show, because to be fair, I get it for certain teams and I get it for certain coaches, but I don't get the idea of this copycat nature of how it's developing. Even League Two games that we watch, you know, you see it and you think, what the f...

Is it going to be more difficult for you to get a job in the Premier League purely because of your style of play versus how everybody else in the world feels like they're watching football? Whether it is or isn't, in the bigger picture of football, I will share a few here, I personally think football's going in the wrong direction now and I think there's an uprising. I think even fans, because I speak to a lot of fans and they go, I'm bored, I'm getting bored of it. I'm getting bored of passing around the six-yard line. People go, no, it's their philosophy. How about changing the philosophy and let's stay in the Premier League rather than getting relegated? How about that one?

Do you know what I mean? I think there's a little uprising of people around that. What did you make of company at Burnley last season with the investment? I was actually... I told the story. It was kind of semi-tongue-in-cheek, but there was a point behind the story. Firstly, to clear up, Vince is a proper fella by heart. So, you know, he's never... You know, they tried to make out I was having a go at him. I wasn't. I was suggesting the bigger picture of football...

If you can be not successful and get massive jobs, there's got to be something a bit odd, isn't it? Yeah. I'll tell you what, in answer to your question, imagine this, right, because I was talking to someone about this the other day. So you're sitting, I'm an owner now. Imagine I go, you know, what's your philosophy? I'm hoping, you know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking, please say to win. Yeah. But you know, now as I go, yeah, we're going to find out the bad, we're going to pass it here, pass it. If I'm an owner, I'm going, you're getting the job. Right.

You lost sight of it before you even start. You don't even want to win. Your first answer is about 4-3-3 and all that. I'd be going, oh, that would worry me straight away. The point I was making about Vincent Kempney was...

You know, to spend a fortune at a club that, you know, relative to the others, doesn't have that amount, and then to play that way and come out of it on 24 points at the end of a season, forget about him as a person, my point was, you know, in the role, and they get to buy it. That is a bit of a coupon buster, surely. Surely that's just fair to say. That's not about me having to go with anyone. Surely everyone... No one saw that coming. Exactly, exactly. And now the worry about that, the point I was trying to make, the bigger picture point, which I was just getting involved with, is...

So now if you're a manager and I look at, right, so the last season three clubs have come down again. I go, whoa, hang on a minute. Surely one of you is going to change. Surely you're going to go, right, I'm not doing that. I'm going to change because I need to stay in the Premier League. And then the irony of it is, and you've definitely done this because I've heard you go, yeah, stick in fair philosophy. And I'm going, what about changing to philosophy? What about changing to philosophy and stay up? What is that for stubbornness? What is that?

Has that manager been selfish a little bit? Looking after themselves going, there's a perception of me, your team's losing every week, but we're nice on the eye, but you're losing every week. You've got to say that about company, can't you? A few managers, it's happened last year and this year. That's what I'm saying, but the idea is that you pundits often go, oh yeah, but that's their philosophy. Almost like get out of jail free card. I'd be going, I didn't get that. People would go, I can't afford losing, look, rubbish.

No one's going to me, that's his philosophy. And so it'd give me almost like a gauged out free card for playing the right way. You know, that's what I'm going on a minute. Yeah. If I'm the partner, I'll be going, whoa, whoa, whoa, how about changing your philosophy? Your job is, you've done the first bit, get them in the Premier League. The next bit, stay in it. That would be my, if I'm the owner, I'm going, no, no, no, you need to get us, you need to keep us in the Premier League. So your job as the manager and the coaches is to make sure you find a way of keeping us in the Premier League. But if there are managers who are doing that, are probably thinking, well,

I'll get a better job but my team are losing every week but the other owners will be looking at certain managers going we like the way he plays it can't be it can't be right for the game it can't be right for an industry can it

An industry that's turned in over billions of pounds. Trust me, in any other industry, that don't work. You know, if you go into Cadbury's, and once you go into Cadbury's, you go, by the way, I'm going to change your recipes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sales went through the floor. I hope not. Not at Cadbury's. I don't think so. Spying on me, dear. Oh, yeah. Jesus, pal. It's a bit troubled, isn't it? But you have a point. Imagine that. And you go, no, we're going to change all the recipes. And you go, what do you mean we're going to change the recipes? And you go, and then you go, what?

what we're failing yeah but it's our philosophy it does don't happen for me it's not that I've just gone nah I think other than Jill because Jill's been through the city model so you've been obviously taught that sort of way of playing out from the back and you see it and you believe in it the rest of us around the table I don't think believe in that level of football being played from the back of the six yard line I think my view on the philosophy is once you've started to teach the players a certain way you look stupid if you change I

I like Liverpool this year. I think they play on the counter-attack. I think they sometimes play, to be fair, direct from Van Dijk. Absolutely. And Trent Alexander-Arnold. They've been firing dikes all over this season. All the time. And I think sometimes they also play possession as well. They sometimes play high-press. Sometimes they go really deep and they just soak up. For me, they're adaptable. I think the problem is that some...

and you know it better than I do, they're just taught one way. They're not taught to play on the counter-attack one week and then possession dominate the next week and then potentially more direct the week after. They are coached and it's like a curriculum.

It's almost like you must play this way. Your full-backs and your centre-backs must be here. No, but that's where academies are at question. That's a bigger picture when we've gone to academies. But they're bringing up this, this, we all must play this. The most damning thing I could say about academies, and they're amazing, by the way, they're amazing. You know, the pitches, the way they look after everyone, the health and safety, you know, amazing.

prep, everything. But how about letting that could just be a footballer? Now it's like, you know, got to receive on the back foot, you can only pass it 10 yards. I didn't see these kids out because we get them coming out of the system and coming into mainly Burnley more than Everton. You know, a kid from Man Utd. Can you just knock one on the outside of your foot? They're like, oh, I don't really do that. I just play the inside of my foot like 10 yards. And I'm going, what's that? I was kind of a lower league player. I'll tell you how this one feels.

Right, you know, it's from the old days. You know, lift one. Just lift it. Put air on it. Lift it and bend it in behind the back four. I can't get players to do it. I can't. I'm screaming. I'm going, just leave. I'm showing, doing a debrief. This is with proper recognised Premier League footballers. I'm going...

Can you not just... And I'm showing them in the game and you see the back four because you know all back fours and the top players in front of them. I'm going, you know? They're names, they're names. Do you know who was brilliant? Who'd done it for you? Bernie Trippier was brilliant. Trippier was the best. I'll tell you what, right. I said, sorry, right. I said in an interview recently, he's my favourite Trippier. The reason is this. I said back in the day this is, we had Danny Ings up front and Kieran Trippier right back.

I said, you know this modernism and, you know, my team doesn't play the right way and all that. I said, you know, I'd be doing him a disservice as a footballer if I said, Trips, you're only allowed to give it to him 10 yards because he can pass that ball anywhere on a football pitch. He can dribble it in any style, inside foot, outside foot, whipper, dipper, smash, grab, lift it, anything.

So I'd be killing his career. I'd be hurting his career. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You used to get in trouble. I remember playing with the outside of my foot in training and training and getting stopped, getting screamed at. At City? Should have played with the inside of your left, yeah. I didn't have a left foot. What? I used to play with the outside of my right, but you did. And the academies as well, I remember seven, eight-year-olds going like, oh, and they'd be talking like, I'm a right back. I'm a right back.

I'm like, how do you know you're a right rock at seven years old? You're six. Like, you should be trying all the gifts on that. Every player, Jill, now, I'm a number 10, really. There's a queue, there's a queue about a mile long. You know, you just go like, yeah, you're a number 10. Oh, there's another one for you, right? I know we're going off-piste here. I go, you know, I keep hearing, how is it, CDM. I'm going, what about just being a midfielder when you used to run up there and try and score and you used to run back there and stop it going in that corner? Are we not allowed to have two pistons, they used to call it? Yeah.

It's called just being a midfield player. No, no, no, because I was brought up as a number six. What, so you only had to pass it backwards? Yeah. That's your other one, numbers, isn't it? Numbers. Everyone's a number, aren't they? Six, eight, two, eight. Playing with two soft nines and all that. Soft nines. Honestly, right, I'm like this. Can you imagine me and my staff? Well, you know, Tome. Me, Tome, Warren, and then we're sitting there, Steve, so we're going like, oh,

I can imagine. A double pivot. You've got the double pivots guide. Yeah, but if people say things like, you're prehistoric. That's because you're dinosaurs. Of course. They say, cool, you're historic. And they're not from a wrong mind. What's a hard nine? What's a soft nine? You know, like, just standing there like, what's a soft nine? I asked what a hard nine was. Are you a soft nine or a hard nine? I think I'm a hard nine. What's a soft nine? I don't know what soft nine is. That sounds so rude. All right, all right.

Soft 19, you're not the full number nine, you're sort of half number nine. I was a soft 16. No, no, no. Soft 16. Sean, have you ever been serious? But do you know what, do you know what though? People get me up about that. I'm a soft six. On a serious note, on a serious note, but I say to some of the younger managers, because a lot bring me now, and I go, look...

My two rules of thumb are be careful telling them what you're going to do before you've done it. So just try and keep it really simple. Not we're going to play the right way, we're going to have 5,000 passes, we're going to win the league and all that. And the other one I go, just be careful. I said, put out enough bullshit to make it sound like you were using all these modern words, but little enough where your peer group don't go, what an absolute wimp. So just try and stay on that level. I hate you, that. I'm wet. No, it's not.

I hear you. I used to buzz off it. So sometimes when I was at Burnham, we were playing it, I'd go, right lads, I'll get a couple in this week. So I remember when I went, I went, right. So I went, lads were terrific today. I said, at the end of the day, I'm bereft of superlatives. Just stood there like that, and the lads are in the office. I'm bereft of superlatives. Recycled it, right back, just recycled it out, you know, to the soft nine. Yeah.

And we'd just buzz off it. We'd just be in the room just going, listen to this. You can see that in the lads. Yeah, and you just, you know... But the problem is, you do have to do enough of that now. You go, because if you don't, you are seen as a dinosaur. You're getting good at it. Years of practice. Have you lost jobs in interviews because of your style of... Probably, probably, yeah. But that's...

Like I was saying, you've got to remember there's another job that comes your way because of your style of play. You know, the other thing that's mad about it is because when you dissect football now, it's often, you know, like vertical passes, of course. Like how many possessions. But you know the stats that people forget. Go and have a look at the players that I, not me, me and my staff developed. You look at the players that we developed. And apparently we only play this way, right? You look at the players that we developed. You look at the money they've gone for compared to what we've gone in for.

That can't be. That cannot be, right, without good coaching and operation. It can't be. They can't all develop themselves. Some players do. Some players learn naturally on the job, right?

But you must be guiding them somewhere for them to be brought in at this level and be sold at that level and still go into the other club and know how to play. Somehow they seem to know how to play but apparently they didn't know how to play because we're just kicking it forward. So your next job, Joe, is not... Obviously, I go back to it, I look at managers going to... There's a certain fit for certain managers, isn't there? Yeah. Burnley, obviously, the way you were saying getting players in...

Steve Bracknell for me. Sunday League. Steve Bracknell. Do you know of him yet? Yeah, yeah. It's Steve Bracknell. That's what I fit. No, no, but there's a certain fit for your day, isn't there? There's for everybody. And hopefully you'll find that one obviously next. No, no, I think there is and I think there is a time and a place but...

Reflecting on it. You know, trying to, as I call it, de-bullshit in the game. You know, because there's too much now. There's too much for me. You know, graphs and stats and everything. And we all use them. We sometimes play with them a little bit and we guide them differently. But it's getting overkill now. I really believe it. And I think the game's on that awkward little stage now where...

Some fans are getting bluffed and blagged into it. We play the right way. Hang on, you've been beat again. Beat again. The goalkeeper's been chipping over the centre-forward's head and just got it nicked again. And just got another goal. It's a hard time when everyone goes, hang on, I've been nicked. I don't know, but that's the way it looks to me. Do you worry about the game, the three teams that have come up going down and vice versa for the last two seasons? It worries me, to be honest with you. Does it worry you in the sense of the Premier League becoming more difficult for championship teams coming up?

Not for me to actually worry about, but I get your point, that the gap is getting bigger, but the bit that I'm more frustrated is what we've been talking about. You get up there and then they start still doing the same thing. I'd be like, that ain't going to work. It's always been difficult for teams to stay up there. Yeah, of course. It's getting more difficult because of the way teams are playing.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. That's the whole point. You're not giving yourselves a chance in a match. Statistically, it's now, to be fair, over the last five years, been the hardest it's ever been to stay in once you've gone up. Yeah, there's a reason for some of that. A lot of it's the way they're playing off from the back. They're getting cut. Self-harm is a big example of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Not by the way you guys don't forget, but friends sometimes forget that when they go up playing like that,

the team you're playing guess what they've become a dandy pressing and they've been doing it at a high level I don't get the bit where they can't change where the managers say they can't change mix it up as you said before you've got to win if you're playing this way and getting beat every week change something going off piece but I think it's worth a mention Scotty Park where they said it's been a boring season 33 without a loss in government for Burnley Football Club

What do you mean boring season? What do you mean boring season? Guaranteed their financial future, the players, the kudos, the town of Burnley getting all them people coming in for the Premier League. We're going, yeah, it's been a boring season. That singing at the end was a bit over the top, wasn't it? A little bit. You love singing. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybet. If there was a job to be taken, which one would you take?

As in anywhere? Any job. It was always Man U was the job that I said because of the size of the club, not because it's Man U. It's just the sheer grandeur, particularly back then. I know it's a suffering a bit of a minute, but the whole world which you guys know, but the worldwide feel of it. That's a big, big, super-powered club. What do you make of what's going on there? With Eric Ten Hag losing his job and now Ruben Amor. You talk about philosophy and style. He said quite clearly he's not going to change the way he plays.

You better win some games then, pretty quick, in my opinion. I reckon if I went there and played my way, I reckon I'd win more games. And I'm not just saying that, just 4-4-2. Do you know what I mean? Basic rules and principles. Some good players, yeah. You don't have to over-teach everyone, I don't think. I'll be interested more in the longer run. If he can stick to his principles and then next season we're all going, hey, fair play. It's not a long run if you're not winning. But that's my point. I was just going to say, at the minute, I think he's getting a fair roll of the dice because people are almost going out of the players and all that.

But he's been there a while now, so you better start bringing some action soon, I think. Some wins, I mean, not actions, some wins. Because I think we'll go, hang on a minute. So yeah, it's win enough to buy enough time. I might get this wrong, I hope I get it right. Willkinson had a great saying, it was, win, survive, succeed.

So basically, you have to win first, and then you can survive because you're winning, and then success is when you do lay down all your principles and your playing style. So if he can do that, if he can win enough, which is the worry at the minute, then survive the process and then succeed, then that's going to be a better... Because people forget about Pep. The first season he came over, they finished 13 points off the top. He made more changes, tactical changes, and more individual changes than any other manager in the Premier League that season and finished 13 points off the top. If you went into...

Real Madrid into that you'd probably get a sack but forget that it took him a season even with his knowledge and amazing manager he is and his principles and the way of doing things and all the best players that he brought in it still took him a season to work out so the point is if Amarant turns into that

you have to go they've given him the time but the question mark is we're far two pints off remember when they played against Leicester I think the first time when they played against Leicester and Sanya and Klishi inverted and they lost I think 4-1 people were going crazy laughing at what's he doing what's the right back doing what's the left back doing now look what's happening now everybody's doing I like managers being given a bit of time

personally some of the stuff they can do and we can all argue the toss about that about their individual moments in game but I'd prefer if managers do get a good at least a good window and a chance which many don't now I'd prefer them to have a good window because I'm very pro manager how much is enough time not a thing

Usually that's decided by pundits, media people and fans. No, it is. Usually nowadays it's the fans first and then pundits and the media. The media can hire a fire as powerfully as anyone now. You can coerce a fan base very simply now through the media and you can put a power one way or the other.

So if that wasn't there, I think they'd probably get more time. But now it is there. So you've got to be ready for that. You are going to get the media angle. And very quickly, you know, the media, not all media, but you sell the thing that people want to listen to now because obviously it gets more clicks and then more clicks is more advertising, more money, more revenue. So a lot of pundits, a lot of media people do sell. Do you think that is the reason? Yeah. If you went to Man United now, Sean. Sorry, Jill. No, it's okay.

What would you say a fair amount of time would be to get it right? I don't know all the stats, or how long has it been in now, how many games. Pre-season is the obvious one. The easiest answer would be pre-season up until, let's say, the halfway point. But it's not always designed like that, is it? You get the job and it's halfway through the season. If it's not early next season, then I'd be saying...

it hasn't worked so you know if I'm the director of football and I go right you've either got to change what you're doing and make it work or we make a change so you're talking about at the very beginning of next season say October if Ruben Amorim wasn't getting results you think he'd be under pressure I'd be surprised if not because you've done your bit this season let's give him the benefit of the doubt he's laying down his platform for success for the future and educating let's say

Then you get your pre-season, because now you've got that window to actually work on it day in, day out, and all the players sort of shift a few out who don't maybe buy in, shift the ones in who do buy in. Well, then if it's not early next season, how long do you go? When you go, well, we've given you all that, we've done all this, we've done all that, we've all bought into it. That's the tough one, isn't it? What I'm saying is the perfect scenario is at least if you get a pre-season and juggle the transfers...

By Christmas, if you're not having some form of success, I think most people go, do you know what I mean? It needs to start working pretty quick. Probably get the next window. And then by January, February, they're going, it ain't working. You'll be going to United at Christmas time. I'm not quite sure I'll get that job. You say that, it's easier said than done getting rid of lads, isn't it? Yes. Getting lads who are sitting there on 200 grand a week. On big contracts with the money they're on. Yeah, big contracts. It's a hard part for United. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybest.

I want to finish talking about British coaching and it's, particularly English coaches, it's been an absolute nightmare for English coaches to get the top jobs just generally over the last 10, 15 years.

a lot of international coaches have come in to the Premier League, a lot of international players, which obviously we've benefited from. But where is British coaching going? What is the English style that basically, you can see that other countries have developed styles of playing, the way in which they do it. What are we doing in our country? Because English coaches are not getting the best opportunities. To be fair, we've spoken about this openly many times that

If you look at the ownership of football in the UK now, particularly the Premier League, I think it's 14 now foreign home clubs. So therefore it's fair to say they probably might look at foreign managers because they're foreign people to the football or whatever the style of football. So that's one thing that already puts you under pressure as an English manager, just use English rather than British. You need one to pop out of the woods like Eddie's doing great and hopefully can do better because then that gives everyone a bit more maybe belief in the system.

You need opportunity. I mean, look, you know, we can't all change it overnight. We're not just going to change the culture of the whole of the Premier League. We're using the Premier League as an example. Change the whole culture. And I don't personally think it's helpful that the media ask this question all the time. They don't ask about foreign managers. How many foreign managers have been in the UK, right, in the Premier League, and we've all gone, really? Yeah.

It's almost like, oh, just a bit unlucky. What do you mean unlucky? Absolutely clueless. What are you talking about? If I was a British manager, an English manager, you'd be saying clueless. So I think sometimes the media can sell it a bit differently. Hang on a minute. There are some very good English coaches and managers out there. You know what I mean? Let's look at them. Because Eddie gets a bit of kudos, but I think he could get more. Where is the next one? I don't know the exact system. But everyone thinks as well, like in my opinion...

Like, say, like the FA. Well, it's up to you because you're not designing the best. It's not quite as simple as that. You know, you look at some of the foreign managers, look at their past, look at their journey. It hasn't been just a design system. They went, look, we're all going to be perfect. And the other thing for me, we've been copying since Spain and Pep. Everyone's been copying football like that.

that and I wasn't wanting to copy everything at some point someone's got to do something different hang on all we're doing really is copying what we thought was the miracle of football which it was at times you know we saw that Spain side and the Pep's were these great sides but great players great coaches we do that all the time not in England would you think Garrett represented English coach as well I did I did personally yeah yeah yeah I did fantastic even Garrett was getting stricken yeah he was throwing beer cups and then three games later won a game

Three days later, I won a game. No, but was Gareth good? Did he represent England coach as well? Very well, yeah. I was just going to say, as an English coach, we...

I think we're given the impression that we copy everything that works every two years so it might have been the France team with a strong powerful team and next year it's Spain and next year it's Belgium I feel like we're trying to copy everyone When United were looking for a manager even Gareth's mention of being around United I couldn't believe that even just to mention the amount of stick but then you give it to and I'm not knocking him you give it to Ruben Ameren

who, you know, obviously coming out of the Portuguese league, he's done okay with sporting, but... It's perception, right? Yeah, it's what he's done up to this point. How can people give Gareth so much stick with what he's done with England trying to do and talk about him so... But there is a problem, right? Disrespectfully, when he got mentioned with United. Because if you were successful with England, as Gareth has been with getting to finals and semi-finals, 25 years ago, 20 years ago, he would have been a shoe-in for a top job in England. Yeah.

He will not get a top job in England in the top five or six teams. You know, the likes of Terry Venables, Bobby Robson, you know, even Glenn Hoddle, obviously coached it. 25, it's changed enormously in terms of the view of English coaches because they don't get those jobs anymore. Even Gareth, who's done brilliantly, will never get linked. I thought Gareth was a coupon bus driver. He'd get my new job personally. I thought he would have. Because I thought that fit...

really well, come and have a situation. Managing the hardship of managing the country, because it is harder than managing England. Sean, it wouldn't have been popular with the fan base, that. I'm not saying it's wrong. Okay, but this is back to what we were talking about earlier. You know, I was saying that the fans and the media, they're the ones that now can drive it. But sometimes, you know, you've got to be brave enough. Think of all the managers down the years who clubs were brave and went, do you know what?

that's a mega going in yes who's this guy I remember him standing on the stairs giving him who's this guy what's he doing and all that no he had two early spurs so what's wrong with getting a go whether the fans go yes if Gareth if Gareth is at United and they're performing like this but it's maybe why Dan left it's maybe why Dan left in the end Dan was probably nowhere near it yeah I got the feeling that Dan wanted Gareth to go in

Do you think? Because operating off and on the pitch for a Man United, that's my point. The global concern it is. Somebody who's at least going to give it a platform, I think, to maybe shake it down a bit and get it in a better state. Gareth would have got that togetherness, I think, which I think is what they need. What he did with England, yeah. VAR, yes or no? Yes for me.

Wow. I don't like it for fans. Yeah. I think it's really hard for fans. But having been a manager, I've been on the knife edge of success and failure on a referee's decision many times, particularly at Burnley when it was close to the end of the season. You've got a lot riding on that. For you, all your team, contracts, money, fans, populace, all of it, riding on a decision because someone didn't make a decision.

So if you can clean that up with an exact decision, particularly the offside one. I mean, I do buzz off it. Yeah, but it shouldn't be allowed. It was only a tough one. You go, yeah, that's the thing you score with. What's the debate? No, but it shouldn't be. Why not? OK, no one scored with their toe. I can't work that one out for me. The idea for the fans, though, not so good. But let's have it right. What's all this referees talking to the crowd?

I had that at the meeting, I don't mind telling you, what's that all about? I've never heard the likes. So referees are already getting battered, they're already getting hammered, and you see my explainers, the fans are all going to sit there, right? The modern fan will go, yeah, he's right, you know.

It's just the thing is with that it's just the fan in the stadium paid to go he doesn't know what's going on. That's why I thought maybe that was a good idea to let them know what's going on at least whether it's right or wrong. They do it in rugby league in rugby don't they? Yeah. It's not the same populace it's not the same fan base. The fans aren't all going to call quite where the referee is. My point is you've already got a referee under pressure. Yeah.

So now you're going to add more pressure on the fact, because you know not everyone's natural to want to speak in front of loads of people. So before you even get there, you're now panicking. You go, I don't want to give that decision because I'm going to have to explain it in a minute. No, no, it was whatever you said. Yeah, yeah. That's a waste of time, all that. That's a waste of time. You know, it was one decision last week. One decision was turned over with all that. So they run over to the screen. Well, nonsense. I don't get that because that slows it down.

I was fine I'd get rid of the referee talk so I'd get on with the game just referee it what about with the mistakes Sean where people say it evens itself out how does that feel for someone like yourself when they say it evens itself out I can't do that I can't get into it because they can finish the argument I know the beauty is I'm sure Daisy's going to say it a lot of managers always say the decision's gone against her are you going to say that yeah but every manager says that so somebody must be getting to say it yeah

Every manager in City has got Danny Locke. There was no two ways about it, in my opinion. Before VAR, the big clubs got the decisions. Wow. Samuel Ross was right with that. Remember all them years ago? He was right because I witnessed it all the time. Burnley, you know, you play whoever you're playing. You think, we ain't getting that. Honestly, the number of times was ridiculous. You send them in and they go, oh yeah, you're probably right. And then when you go, well, you haven't done nothing about it because it's up again for the fourth season on the trot. You know what I mean? So that VAR does even that out a little bit.

For me, I'll tell you what I think the next step of the game is, my personal view, and I feel strongly about this, I'm not having the faint of injury now, it's getting a disgrace, I think. Footballers doing each other by feigning injury and getting them in trouble. In my day, your own team-mate would go, don't do that. Like, more than around. It's like part of the game, and I'm going, someone needs to get rid of that for me. The diving for me has got excessive, I think it's ridiculous. You know, you're actually younger than Everton, he likes it a bit. Good. He likes it a bit. He's all right. I know, I'm in another place. I'm like, I guess I'm in another place.

Here's to some of the fouls. Go on, Dom. And a scream. 1-0. Screams. Screams. It's not even just forwards who dive now. No. 10-0. Yeah.

How is it so? Does it more than anyone? Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Remember John McGinn with what he said to you about the coat? What was that about he said with the coat? I can't tell you what I said. I remember he said something about you've been wearing that coat for six years or so. You said something to me, but you took it really well. Six years is nothing. No, no, no. I knew his brother, John McGinn. Steve McGinn.

Sorry. Right. We had him at Watford. Great lad. Yeah. Everybody's a great lad, you know. He was a great lad. Great. No, it was a bit of a... He thought I was shouting at someone. Right. And he thought it was him. Right. So he started coming for me and he just said, can you be stupid, ****?

I said, I said, I think it's f***ing decent. That's funny. I like that one. Yeah, but you always seem to be... Can't tell you what I said, but let's just say I had the last laugh. What happened to respect? There was no respect that window doing. There was until I just rose a little bit. I was glad that you were somebody that you weren't far away from just like as angry and smiling.

Yeah, because at the end of the day, I think that's a skill set made to not go so far up the heat chain, you know, when you lose it. I mean, there's a moment when you have to go, whoa, and you have to check yourself really quick. And I think I'm pretty good at that. You know, I can go really high and then just literally, and have a laugh, you know, at the same point. I love the different, like this Sean Dash voice and then the Sean Dash voice after the game, the back,

Yeah, you know, you get that thing of, you know, like you can't affect players on a pitch. And I thought, well, I think I can. So I'm going to start showing. And if they don't respond, it's fucking, they're getting told. Love it. Love it. I went and checked again the other day. I went and checked about ten times. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was done last week, actually.

What, North Upper Asia? Yeah. Not a job, not like a remote. Not a just remote. It looks the same to me. Oh, yeah, that's the thing, yeah. No, it does not. No, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's going to be the headline. I said, I said, I said, I said, Johnny, my mate, we're doing this little chat thing. He goes, do you know what you were doing when you were out there having some glow-up? I'm getting my teeth done, I'm getting my nose done.

That went everywhere. No, I got over it, kicked in the face 20 years ago and I couldn't breathe so that's hard to be nice. I was just telling you that. So I can breathe. So you had the packs put in, the sort of operation for the sound? No, no, no, they did the carling. Yeah, I know, you've got some work to do there, kid. What a great place to finish. LAUGHTER

He's going to Turkey next week. I got over it kicked in the face years ago at Gillianham. And Gia Poa, I threw in the old brave one, it went boom. My nose went in the old... So they rebroke the top bit, but the cartilage was all over the place. So for years I couldn't breathe for it. So when I went to do the LMA, you know the LMA, they do like a MOT for the managers, you know, stress and all that. And Sally Harris, the doctor there, she went...

I went, you've got to get your nose. I went, how do you know it's not a nose? I can hear you breathing. I breathe like a rhino. It's a bit off-putting when you're chatting to a doctor and you go... I was like, yeah, I know what you're thinking. No jokes. I'm 898, yeah. It's going to be Sean gets a new job. Rose job. Rose job.

Be careful what you say there, Joe. Thanks very much for coming on State's Football. No, no, no. Thank you. Thank you.

Gabby's got to get off. I haven't. I've got to do all these reads. You've got to do your reading. Just hearing it. Thank you, that was good. I love how every manager says, we never got any decisions. Every manager. Who got the decision? Hey, I got none at Ipswich. Afila One. A whole new electric car from Sony Honda Mobility.

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