Henry: Arsenal Glory, Barca Battles & Premier League Legacy | Stick to Football EP 85
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What does that mean? I said, so I did eclectic on Monday Night Football the other week. You said, what's made slower? And he said, electric? No, eclectic. Eclectic? What does that mean? A collection? A collection of different players? Eclectic means like a... Why don't you say it in eclectic? Bit of an unusual take on something, like a bit eclectic. Ian, are you eclectic?

Yeah, probably. Of course he is. What's that mean? A mixture, a mixture of something. Unusual, rare, unusual. Is that a mixture of colours? Is that what you're trying to say? This is an eclectic mix of colours. It's meant to be. Have you bought that? I bought it. No, when you say represent, is that not yours? No. A name? No. No.

How would you go into a shop and look at that and think, I'll buy that? Don't you like it? Jamie, you're very block-calorie though, aren't you? You're bam. I know. It is a problem, I accept that.

What about even when on holiday? No, I go a little bit, but I do stick to my blue, my black, my grey. Green's a little bit of a thing for me now. Green is good. You know why I like green so much? Because you can't wear it on any TV. So I've got so much green gear that I can't wear anywhere. So like even the other day, I wore it on the... Cheers. I wore it the other day on the show. I've heard we've got a special guest.

Nice top, Jill. You look awesome. Wrong colour, Jill. City top. Wow, light blue. I colour weird things that have got lots of writing on the back. That ain't got writing on the back, has it? Go, let me see.

Could you go and buy that? Imagine walking behind him in the street and seeing that. You're thinking, he's a right tosser. Yes, Jerry. Oh! Oh! Hello, everyone. Hello, hello, hello. Get rid of this. Sabah! Sabah! Sabah me. Sabah me. Get rid of that. Thank you. How do you remember that? Sabah! Sabah! Sabah!

French lessons. No, no, no, this is just Irish handshake. This is simple. Seriously, have you always had those tattoos? No, no. I got them late in New York. I was going to say, I remember when I was marking you, I didn't used to see that. I didn't. I was close. I wasn't that close. No, never used to. I love tattoos. They get quite addictive, don't they?

That's the thing. Thierry, I've got to have one this year for my 50th birthday. Any suggestions, Annie? You're going to be 51 by the time you get this tattoo. No, I've got eight months yet to get it. He has a big list of things to do. Have you done any of them? He ain't done any of them. What do you want to do? Do you want a sleeve? What do you want? Sorry. A whole sleeve. Imagine carrying a sleeve. Why not? No, I'm thinking just here. I'm thinking here. What are you going to put? I don't know. He's going to get it. Do you see the back of his jacket? Phil? He's going to get that. Phil. LAUGHTER

It's like a full black jacket on the back of your jacket there. Yeah. There are a lot of buildings there on the left. My son was born in New York, so... Oh, she's New York? Yeah. And then I have my other kids at the back. Righty, what do you have there? No, this is just some numbers. No, you need to tell him about them, because it's a bit worrying, actually. Why? You'll be disappointing him.

You know what this is? This is when we was doing a COVID, me, Alan Shearer and Lineker was doing a podcast. It's a great story. And so because I was eight, he's nine, he's 10, we just put it on. The numbers of the shirts. He's got Alan Shearer and Gareth Nicker's shirt numbers on his hand. Why? Because I like them.

Do you have an Harley? I have a Harley, yeah. This one is good. Is that true, that story? Yeah, what, the Harley? Yeah. But you weren't supposed to come and you came with the... Yes, and INSEE got one as well. We went and got tattoos. I'm glad this one's covered up all the time. It was the worst tattoo ever and most painful, I think. Was it? Oh, it was terrible. Right on the fat of my thigh. I think your side hurts. Have you got any on your side? No.

No, I don't. This hurts here, in the bone here. Elbow hurts. Yeah, imagine elbow. He'd be crying. You'd be crying, definitely. We'll have to go and film that. Shall we have a live tattoo? Yeah, that would be good. A live one. You should do that. Gal, did you get a live one in here? What happened to that list you had? Have you done it? Yeah, I'm going to do a bit of it right, yeah. Can you remember what it was again? Glastonbury, I'm not doing now.

Jesus. I've bootclassed them, Brie. Same here. I'm going. What's the... Harry Bowles. Would you like some, Thierry? If I start, it's over. You deliver a cross when you've been going up and down the whole game and the striker's been sitting there the whole game and then taps it in. People are like, oh, the hero. I'm like, uh. I respect people that also want to beat their full-back on the outside. Yeah. That's when I know you're a good dribbler. All I need, Roy, is one.

Jamie stopped me way more than I passed him. The people always will remember. Really? Can't remember? The fans actually are killing me because my socks are over my knees. When I arrived in England, that didn't look too right. No. In all fairness, you're wearing gloves. You know, I'm like, yeah, I'm cold. I always admired him.

in training. Proper kicky in training? How else can he play? Once Martin does the eyes, you just back off. Although, I want stuff. He didn't give me, you know what. I took the shirt, I put it there, I said I would never play for this club again. At one point you're Michael Jackson, another time you're Tito. I'm still in the group. You just invested in Como? Yeah. We did well this year. Yeah. Cez did very well. I have to give him a lot of credit on that. I know it's early for him, but obviously he's a

big name football he's made a really good start whenever I listen to him speak he's been on Monday Night Football hasn't he but he comes across really well would other clubs be looking at him at this stage? You know not to go into too much details but a lot of clubs I think are coming for him and there were rumours of Milan Roma

That's good for you, huh? That people want him because he's doing a good job? Yeah, it is. And good for him. Although he's there with us, I think Cesc must be the first coach in history that has shares in the club. He coaches a club that he invested in.

I don't know if that happened in history. I don't know if you know that. But to go back to your point with Cesc is Cesc was always a thinker. Like when he arrived at Arsenal, the way he broke into the team and how he was thinking the game. I always said there was a difference between playing the game and thinking the game. And he's definitely a thinker, as you saw, and all of his career and what he could achieve and how he saw the game. But yes, when you speak to him,

You can speak with him for hours about football. Because he also had that...

I know people will say again that La Masia, Barcelona way of thinking but it does, it really does Student of the game lads, attention to detail Everyone who comes to Sky is a student of the game Thierry you just said play the game or think the game My first experience of you was when we played against each other directly You were left wing for Monaco on a way in Monaco and I was right back

What would you say that a young Thierry Henry was? Playing the game or thinking the game at that stage? No, I was playing the game. I just wanted to make a name for myself. Yeah, I was playing the game. I wasn't thinking about anything. Just...

When you're young, this is why sometimes I get annoyed when I see wingers sometimes not playing their 1v1. When you're young, you don't care about no tactics. You think outside of the tactic. That costs me in games sometimes because you look at your coach and you're like, I'm not doing this. I'm a dribbler. Let me have a go. Let me shoot. And nowadays, if you don't listen to what the coach says, sometimes you go on the bench. But no, I was...

I just wanted to play and make a name for myself. And you have to understand, we played you, I think, in the quarter-final of the Champions League. You beat us. Yeah, well, not really. 0-0, 1-1. Yeah. Tristeguise scored that goal at Old Trafford and we knocked you out. But at that moment, I wasn't a winger, really.

At that moment, Jean Tigana and Arsene actually started me as a nine, but Jean Tigana was using me because I was fast. He didn't want to lose that in the game. I was just raw, to be fair. I worked a lot after. What you saw after came, obviously, with working. I always say that working hard is a talent. People don't put that in when they talk about talent.

working hard is a talent and I understood that at one point and I needed to work but at that moment I was just playing in all fairness I'm glad you said what you said a few moments ago where you said that you watch maybe wingers now and they don't take the one on one that's interesting because you've come from you played at Barcelona obviously and you understand that way of playing which is to not give the ball away easily to make sure that you recycle at times

But you still want that spontaneity of wingers going, because it drives me crazy. I think if I'm a full-back and the winger passes it, I think, and I see so much of it. Look, you played with Ryan Giggs. If you're not ready to play against Ryan Giggs, that's on you. He was coming at you every single time. Reigning, not reigning, 5-0, 0-0. That's why I respected Ryan Giggs so much, because he wanted the ball, he wanted to have a go at you. And I respect people that also want to beat Ryan,

Their fullback on the outside, that's when I know you're a good dribbler. If you come inside one-two with the nine or go inside and curve it, even now, I don't know if I would score. It's easy to dummy going back inside and shoot. Easy, especially now you have the run of the ten that make people believe that you might play him, so you come inside and shoot. Beat your guy on the outside, that's when I know you're a good dribbler because then you dislodge everything. Center back has to come and meet you, then you free your nine inside.

everything is so like why are we not seeing that what's happening I think I will be honest with you I think that coaches sometimes do complicate stuff and yes I was when I went to Barcelona I will be honest with you my view of the game changed

But what did matter didn't change. At one point, the game goes to 1v1. Roy had to battle with Patrick. You had to battle with me or Robert Pires. Whatever tactic it is, at one point, it's me and you. Who wants to win that battle? And that's what it is. It's funny that you say that. There's a red way. We're in the semi-final of the Olympic Games and we're losing 1-0 against Egypt at home or we go to the final of the series or we don't. And I'm looking at...

You know, I'm playing 4-3-1-2. I'm like, OK, I'm going to have to play with wingers iron wide. I'm going to change the tactic. Although we could have scored before, we didn't. Desiree Dewey comes on and you all saw that he can dribble. He's strong. Like, as soon as he gets going, there's no way you can stop him.

So we play, so we take the risk to play out from the back to free you in a 1v1, you pass the ball back. What the F are you doing? Like, I might as well launch it. Why am I taking risk to play short to free you in a 1v1 for you to pass? He did it twice. I got up, I said, if you do it again, you're out. Take risk. Go. Why do you want to take that away from a player that can dribble? And also, sometimes, and...

What is dribbling? I see a lot of guys that stop the ball and do a lot of showboats and pass it back or whatever it is. You can do that at times when maybe when you're winning and you want to cry to enjoy the game. But go. Have a go. And don't be afraid to lose it. You have no problem with losing it. All I need, Roy, is one. All I need is one. You stopped me. I said it to Jamie so many times. Jamie stopped me way more than I passed him.

but people always will remember it is you remember it is all you need as a knight is one or a striker because you you need to believe that you're going to make it happen you need to believe that you're going to make it happen and you will fail and fail and fail again but it's how you come back and try to to be to because that's what especially as a dribbler why are you going to stop a dribbler dribbling i don't

I don't get it. Who gave you that confidence? Because when I used to watch you, you'd come deep, get the ball, you'd want to take on three players and then you'd come and get it again, come and get it again. Where did that confidence come from? The manager, the fans? You just looked like you were just loving it. Me being stubborn. Me being stubborn and equipped to be able to do it. So I'll explain. I wasn't gifted right from the start and I know people mind. I was just fast.

fast, had a knife for a goal or understanding. I needed maybe six chances to score one. I wasn't that great of a finisher. I would have had the ability to present myself in front of the goalkeeper because I was faster. So at one point I was like, my coach, the coach, I have to mention him, Joaquim Francisco Filho, Brazilian coach that I had in Clairefontaine. And when I arrived in Clairefontaine, he said to me so many times in training session, he said, today you're not going to be able to use your speed.

And I looked at him, I was like, how am I supposed to play? Like, that's my attribute. He said, I don't care. The day you're going to play against someone as fast as you, what are you going to do? So he stopped me using my speed. Sometimes we have themes in games. You're not allowed to pass the ball back or you're not allowed to pass the ball back as a nine.

that's what created... You guys played against me. I always used to go to a zone where nobody could go and get me. That came from that. Because it's raw laziness. As a knight, sometimes you just know you can pass it back. So suddenly when I knew I couldn't pass the ball back, my body started to put myself in a corner. I needed to see you coming. I needed to see how far you were and the suit distances. So I was always going to sit. If the holding midfielder is there, the right...

back is there the right back is there and the winger let's say Beckham was there or you Irwin or whoever was in the middle and you were there I was always going to stand here

That was very annoying, that. Roy, he's on your shoulder. I was always going to stand there because by the time you guys argue or whatever, I receive the ball, I turn. Or if you come too early, I spin. I was always trying to go back to your point. That coach gave me that because he made me think about the game when I was 13.

Sometimes you have guys like, "OK, he's fast. "We're going to utilise the fact that he's fast. "He's going to go with the under-17. That's not my problem after." They will teach him how to play and understand movement. And my coach was like, "No, today you can't do this." When I used to just push the ball, he was like, "Hey, what are you doing? You're not dribbling properly." And so he made me understand that if you have to push the ball,

If you see grass and there is 40 meters and you're faster, why are you stopping the ball? This is why I don't understand when I see guys that are fast and there is 60 meters down the line and you're coming like that to me and I see the grass and those guys turn and pass the ball back. I'm like, what are you doing? Just push the ball. You don't need no step overs. You don't need to turn and be cute. Just push the ball and run.

That doesn't mean that you can't play, sorry, that doesn't mean that you can't play football. When I had to dribble shorter, I was dribbling shorter. But if there is space and I'm faster than you, let's see. But you said dribbling, did that mean you had to go beyond them or was that sometimes, like you mentioned Giggs and Becks and these lads, sometimes that was just going on the outside and getting half a yard. It wasn't necessarily going past them, it was just getting a half a yard and then putting it in. I had that discussion with Doku in the national team. Very interesting. I'm looking at him and as you, you know, always... Yeah, yeah.

I'm like, when you do this, what do you see? Are you here? Are you here? Or are you there? Because you do this to see what you're doing because you're cooking here. I call it cooking. You're cooking here and you see the movement of your mind. But you do this, you don't even know what's happening there. You don't need to dribble past someone to deliver a cross. You don't need to dribble past someone to give an assist. It's about balance, like everything in life.

Sometimes you have to show both. We all know Dennis Beckham was one of the best example for me because although he could show both, although he could, he was always doing what the game was asking him to do and what was required, not what he wanted to do, regardless of the situation of the game. And that, for me, makes the difference. That's why you see sometimes some guys, as you said, Giggsie was just outstanding. David, David Beckham. When you look at him, you're like, okay...

Not really fast, not particularly strong, but shift, cross. Go, shift a bit, cross. The nines knew what was happening and then you could deliver. I agree with that one. You don't need to. And I had a discussion with Doku and I didn't stay long enough to talk to him more about it, but you don't have to dribble past someone to deliver a good cross. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybest.

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you're seen as this young player, an exciting French player. But within 12 months, you're almost like a superstar in the Premier League. Because people... It doesn't frustrate me, but people always say, oh, Thierry Henry took a year to settle at Arsenal. You scored 25 goals in your first season. I always used to hear that thing said a lot. What's that development in that first 12 months in terms of Arsene Wenger? It's in terms of everything. I had to understand what I wanted to do, everything.

At times, players always look to see if they can have an escape or an exit or try and say, oh, look, they didn't like me, they didn't do this, they didn't do that. And I always say people forget, but we beat Middlesbrough at home 5-1, I think, when Davos Shuker came on as a sub. Davos Shuker was in our squad, people forget. Came on as a sub and I stayed on the bench forever.

Stayed on the bench. I was like, you're going to have to wake up here. You have to wake up. First and foremost, you come after this guy. You come after Anelka that had outstanding season and what a player he was. People do sleep sometimes on how great Nicolas Anelka was. So you come after this guy. Kanu is playing. Bergkamp is playing. If you want to go on the left, it's Mark Overmars and Davos Shuker is on the bench with you.

and we just won 5-1 and the fans are not singing my name the fans are actually killing me because my socks are over my knees yeah they were it's a fact it's ok I had light blue gloves with short sleeve it didn't look right

No, but when I arrived in England, that didn't look too right. No. In all fairness, you're wearing gloves. You know, I'm like, yeah, I'm cold. Yeah, but I'm cold. I'm a man, but I'm cold. It's like, what do you mean I'm cold? Can I have, I'm cold. Anyway, so it didn't look too right. So I remember that day I took the train back with the fans. No one recognized me, nothing. I took the train back and I was like, hey, listen, you need to start to work.

Did you speak to anyone? No, I didn't speak to anybody. Yeah, I think, look, I always say to people, like, I'm not trying to be, I'm just telling you what I went through. The best discussion you can ever have is with yourself. If you want to be honest, be honest with yourself. The rest, I can lie to you, no problem. But then after, if you know exactly what you have to do, so I had to wake up early to be able to perform.

And you talk about Wenger. Yes, but I will talk about the old guard. And I mentioned it so many times. And I think sometimes that was missing at clubs. And we all went for it. When I arrived at Arsenal, you have to impress Tony Adams. You have to impress Martin Cairn. You have to impress Lee Dixon. You have to impress Charles Winterburn. You have to impress David Seaman. You have to impress the chef. He's an Arsenal fan.

Doesn't care about you winning the World Cup and what you did. You didn't do anything yet here. Who are you? And rightly so, so you have to embrace it. Okay, let me show you who I am. Okay, let me show you who I am. But you walk in and you see Dennis Bergkamp and you see the history of the club. And Tony Adams at that moment, not going into details, was going through his stuff. So he wasn't really talkative. So I'm like...

It's a tough place to be. Although Patrick Vieira was there and some of the guys were there, some of the French guys, they did help me. But after that, at the end of the day, if you don't perform, people don't like you. However you want to look at it, people are like, oh, he was a nice guy. Nice guy don't stay. Nice guy go. People always speak well of Tony Adams, don't they? Yeah. They always speak highly of him. Tony was...

I call him the skip whenever I see him. And when you know also what he went through, what he had to endure and the person that he was. So those guys made me understand what it was to be there and what I had to do in order to perform. Then you embrace it or you don't. I always say if you don't, then you got to go. You know, people always say, Terry, that's harsh. That's not harsh. That's the rule of the game. When you play for Arsenal and you play for Man United or Liverpool, you have to bring trophies if you don't.

Training? Did they train? Did they all train with intensity? I remember I always say, I believe that I scored goals easy. It was easier to score goals on a Saturday than it was in training. Righty. Because someone like Martin, someone... No, I love hearing all that stuff. I love when I hear top players who were at it all the time. Martin, don't give you a minute's break. I'll be... So...

They don't mind me saying it. I don't think they wouldn't mind because I think for me that's what's missing in a game sometimes. You have to live with your time and it's a different era.

I remember arriving in England and having that European continental way of playing. You know, if you pull the shirt of someone, if you stop, usually the ref will blow the whistle. So I arrived, I shielded the ball. I think we were playing Leicester at home, my first game. And someone went in front of me, took the ball. I thought he kicked me and I thought he pulled my shirt. So, you know, in a nice way, I stopped. Counter. Yeah.

My fans started to go at me. Everybody started to go at me. Sorry. I came back in the dressing room after the game. Lee Dixon came up to me and said, Oi, you... I won't say the rest. You need to... I won't say the rest. Move. So I was like, OK, OK, OK. But the week, the whole week after, in training, oh, my God. Yeah.

I needed protection here, protection there, protection there. They're coming everywhere. Coming everywhere. Was that the biggest difference, the physicality in the Premier League? You know what? It's not so much what they did and how they did it. It's they were willing to make you understand what it was. It could have been by, at the time, you could kick people. That's how it was in training. Just imagine how it was in the game. So just imagine training.

where you stop it if someone wants to stop it. It's just the fact that they were willing to let you know what it takes at this club to win and what this club means to everybody and to themselves. And you are not supposed to come here and F around. That's about it. Whatever you want before...

It doesn't matter. Come here. Make us believe or make us, you know, see that you can perform. And then, yes, then after, after the battle for judo. Oh, Martin Kern would have put his nose for me anywhere at any time. But I go back to your point. I always had Martin in training. But...

You guys are all off things. Proper kicking training? How else can he play? I've just been polite. I will apologise to Martin. I'm not saying that in a bad way. But Martin always played 100. Against his son, he would have been against anyone. He would have been 100 if he had stepped on your head. Every single time. He would always say, you're not going to get marked like this tomorrow.

Oh, my gosh. That's the kind of thing. You won't get marked like this on Saturday. Biting, pulling. Did you ever have, like, sort of a little bit of sort of entraining? You know when you jump up and it gets all like that? But once Martin does the eyes, you just back off him. When his eyes go, if he thinks you're taking this, he goes crazy. But, like, he was right. He was right for me.

You know what I mean? He used to mark me in all the training. You know what he used to say? Because Martin, as you know, can, you know, always has a thing where, you know, with the back four, I'm not going to go there. You know, no, I'm not going there. Yeah. He's not going home. Every day, yeah. Every day in training, he used to come and say to me, Thierry,

I'm playing against you today again, you see. They don't want anyone else to get embarrassed. They give me the dirty dirty. They know, they know who's the best. Don't tell them. Don't tell them. Oh my God. I'll tell you the one, did you ever see when, any time where he tried to do the same with Dennis? I've never seen him do the same.

Dennis. Some of the times, what Dennis... Can you please tell them how Dennis was? Dennis was nasty. Was he? Yeah, nasty side. Roy, he was dirty. Dennis. Brilliant he was once instead, yeah.

Dennis, I used to love. Yeah. He was nasty. You had something with him. Yeah, he stomped on me. Yeah, he's... And he threw the coin back. Yeah, he's not a name of the crowd. Yeah. What was different about Arsenal than Juventus and Monaco where you'd previously been? It was just an evolution that helped me grow. So I arrived in the first team in Monaco, so...

That year, I was playing a year above with the other 17 and I had a good season. And the way I started with the first teams, like everybody, like the four strikers were injured. One was sick, three injured. And I don't know why Alston bypassed the reserve and he went to take me with the other 17. Okay, so I started as a nine. But when Alston, after he got the sack, he got the sack after four games in that I was in,

And because I was fast, people put me on the wing. So I started to play on the wing, not understanding how to move as a winger, nothing. I was just real fast, pushing the ball at people and running, kicking the ball out. The way I used to run with the ball was actually shocking. It was. That's what I would say to people. It's one thing to be fast, and fast with the ball is a different ball game. Then won the league with Monaco. That got me a...

to be in a national team. You win the World Cup, whatnot. Then I get the move to Juve, which was... The coach was Marcello Lippi. Marcello Lippi is, you know... I don't know if you know him. I mean, I only had four games with him, but...

Juve was struggling. I don't know if you remember that also. It was the year where Zeman, the coach of Roma, was saying that the Juve players were... George? Okay. So when I arrived... We were 11th in the league. When I arrived, I think we finished 6th. That year was chaos, really chaos. Then Ancelotti arrived. Then Ancelotti was playing a 3-5-2. And I'm the wing-back. Oh my gosh. So I went from being number 9...

I couldn't even... I was doing what I was doing, but okay...

Then I arrived at Juve and you play as a wing-back. All the games are wing-back? Yeah, almost. Almost all the games. I will be honest with you, at the beginning I struggled because you have to be the fourth defender, the fifth midfielder, the winger, cross on the other side, you have to make the box. That was tough, especially as a nine. I was like a nine when I was young. Don't ask me anything. It was great for your education, wasn't it? When you look back now... That's why it's a great point because that's exactly...

I understood how tough it was to be a real football player. I'll tell you why. Because nine sometimes have it easy. They have it easy. They score the winner. No, it's true. I've been there. So that's why. And Jimmy will tell you that. I understood how great an assist is. When I was a nine, I didn't care. You give me a ball, I push it in. You run, you're alone. You forget that your team bailed you out for 89 minutes. But the day after is...

You bailed them out. It's wrong for me. And I know people will say that, come on, no, I always have been like that. I always thought like that because I went there. If I didn't play on the wing, I would never have understood what it is to be a team player. I'm not saying that nine are not team players. Understand me well. But,

Yeah. If you score the winner when you miss all your touch, you didn't help the team one time and they bailed you out, then it looked like you bailed them out. People would say, oh my God, he scored again. So I understood. And that's why you talk about education, that it educated me a lot. But if you go back to the Juve point, one thing happened there that showed me that

I had character and I knew I was going to take no you-know-what from anyone. So I was there. Everyone asked me why I left Juve. I didn't leave Juve because of playing or not playing or whatever it was because I finished the season kind of okay, to be fair, scoring goals, giving assists. But then at the end of the game, Mogi...

So the director at the time. The owner? No, he was the sporting director. But he was almost the owner, trust me. And more. Let's leave it there. He grabbed me after a game, just finished a game, and he puts me in the room and Ancelotti was in the room there. Straight after the game, not even straight after the game. He was like, oh, we're going to send you to Udinese.

I'm not going to take a shower. We're going to send you to Udinese because I don't know if you remember at that time, they had Birof and Amoruso. Remember that team of Udinese? So we want Amoruso, but then they will only sell it to us if you go there on loan. So I'm looking at him on Twitter, he's not saying anything. He said, yeah, but we trust you. We trust you.

I said, oh, great trust. Do you trust Del Piero? They said yes. OK, send him, I'll loan them. Did you say that to them? Yes, but I was stupid at that time. But my point is, I didn't take no, you know what, from nobody. I took the shirt, I put it there, I said I will never play for this club again. And not because of the fans, not because of anyone, because it's an outstanding club.

Seriously, great club, great, great, great fan base. The way they look after you in Italy is almost like you're below God. The way they treat you, it's outstanding. But that was disrespectful, so I left. You always have to take, there's always a story and a meaning in what you're doing in life and how it happened. As much as I was okay, I didn't like it too much. But I didn't accept it though. This is why I always say to people, regardless of

your dad, your mom, family, your neighborhood or whatever it is. You don't have to accept anything from anyone if you don't want to do it. Like take your life, take control of your life. That's what I did and obviously then... How old was you then? 99 years, I just turned 22.

Just turned 22. But to be able to, what you need to understand, that guy was so respected. But I felt disrespected and so I left. But obviously Arsenal's a great option. I'm always intrigued. I hear a lot of foreign players talk about, is London a big attraction for players? Was that part of the package or was it Arsenal? I'll be honest with you. This guy sitting there made me, at the very beginning, fall in love with Arsenal.

Then I would go back to right after. Then, when you had all the French guys, you know, we go in the national team, the guys are telling you, oh my God, it's amazing to play for Arsenal. Oh my God, oh my God. Enough already. That's Patrick, Emmanuel Petit. Patrick, Nicolas Anelka, Emmanuel Petit, Gilles Grimondi, whatever. Because people, Gilles was a good player also. But was London a part of the package for them as well? No. It was just pure Arsenal. It was the Arsenal. Highbury,

the Premier League also, the Premier League by the time, even the guys playing, I don't know if you remember, Didi Domi, Luisa was at Newcastle, they came, they're all like, oh my God, the Premier League is amazing, oh my God, you don't understand, you tackle and they clap. They were like, hey, if you put the ball down and you put your head up and you dribble, they're like, oh,

So the way they were selling it, I was like, oh my God, it's like, and then Arsene was there. He gave me my debut. There's a lot of stuff that was like, you know, and then right here. So the first time I saw right here was, it's actually, you know, the final against Man United, 3-3, 1-0, you know,

And then I followed where he went, because that final, the 3-3-1, obviously. Then you went to Arsenal and I followed. And then you knocked Paris Saint-Germain. You guys knocked Paris Saint-Germain out. I think it was nil-nil. Yes. And Kevin Campbell scored on a free kick that header. Yeah, so, yeah, started with Raiti, the French crew. And then after, obviously, I kind of embraced it.

You said before, obviously you've got a spirit, because to walk into a sporting director's office and then say, I'll never play for you again, takes obviously... I didn't even do that. He called on me into a room. Yeah. But you said earlier on, when you were talking before, about you should ignore the coach when you're a wide player. You know, when you get into a wide area and you should dribble at someone. Yeah.

But do you not think players are frightened to ignore... I watch players now in wide areas. They're actually frightened to ignore the instruction of the coach about how to play. It's so methodical. I understand well when I say ignore. It might be a strong word. But at one point... Yeah. I'm sorry. You got to do what you have to do. Like what you want people to make you go to goal. No, you have to. And yes, if you're not successful...

You have to understand also that you might go and sit, and that's the way it is, because the coach will say to you, I didn't tell you to do that, but if you bend it in the top corner, you dribble free, you score a solo goal, or you cross it back, I don't know, no coach is going to go and say to you, sit down. So you need also at one point to be you. Like I knew I could dribble. I knew I could go in the middle and take the ball and go. It didn't always happen, trust me, but I knew I could do it. But I need to show people that I can.

And in order for them to understand that I can, I go back to training. I go back to training because if I arrive always late, if I don't put 100% in training, if I don't... Do you think that Dennis Bergkamp was going to give me the key? Do you think that they were going to allow me to stay on the left sometimes? I wasn't even there as a nine sometimes. I used to stay on the left. And try to do what I had to do. But...

you have to earn that also. Understand when I say ignore. Okay, don't ignore your coach when you just arrived from the academy and we don't know. And still, if you have that personality and you're going to back it up, then do it. But you got to back it up. I reached that level of ignoring someone

When I was like, OK, I'll show you what I can do. Because I played against you in Monaco, you were raw, you were very raw. But then, obviously, I play against you at Arsenal and you're just like, you're smooth, you're in control of everything. Your understanding of the game is completely different level. I will be honest with you, Euro 2000. Euro 2000 with the French team for me was, I think, my best that summer, that Euro.

You know when everything, you start, it's so stupid what I'm going to say, but you look at everything and everything seems, oh, that's it. What was that? What was that picture? Everything is slow motion. Like, you kind of like, I'm sure, you're the same, you know, when you're like, you're in control of everything that's happening. Not quite. You are.

No, come on. No, you're on. But Jotir, I watched Mo Salah at the moment, this period in his career, and he's got to that point that you're talking about, that point whereby he just looks like he's got all the time in the world. I know what you're describing. I didn't experience it myself on the pitch. But you got to that point in Euro 2000, playing with you. Euro 2000, that's when I realised that, OK, again, I put myself in a situation to be able to realise...

Because if you're not equipped, when you arrive in a national team and you have to play with Zidane and Yuri Djokovic and Deschamps, if you don't give the ball to Zizou, you get that look. If you don't give the ball to Yuri, you also get that look. If you lose the ball, Marcel Leclerc is waiting for you with a knife in the dressing room. So you have 55 minutes to an hour to perform because someone on the bench can take your place.

And suddenly I'm on the field and I'm not thinking about this anymore. You're not thinking about passing to the players? I'm not thinking about anybody anymore. I'm thinking about what the game is asking me to do. And obviously we're talking about Zidane. But I'm like, OK, I have to do what I have to do. When I have to give the ball to Zizou, I give it to Zizou. If I have to give it to Uri, I give it to Uri. If that's the right call, that's the right call. And if I come, I'm not scared anymore. I'm dropping. Marcel Le Say used to... Oh my God, I'm just thinking about it. When you used to drop...

And asking the ball to Marcel Desailly, he's almost praying at the same time. He used to smash it to you. What, wrap it into you quickly? He used to go, bend himself like this. Bend himself? Hey, he used to smash it. And I'm like, I'm thinking, how am I going to control this? Going against the ball. Against the defender behind? And if you lose it, this guy is like...

So, like, as well, a bit smashed. He was lost. There he is. It's only took half an hour. Can I just ask you... Someone smashed him into here. Can I just ask you about winning the World Cup in 98? Obviously, you were so young. Do you think that's what drove you to obviously want to get all them trophies and successes? Because, basically, you did the biggest thing that any footballer would love to do at such a young age. Um...

It was kind of weird because I didn't think about it at the time too much. First and foremost, I'm young. I'm not thinking like if you're 30 or it's the World Cup at home, that might be my last one. You're not approaching it the same way. And also, I was talking to a friend of mine the other day about it, is if you took all the squads of everybody, bandits at the time or ex-players or journalists, I was in none of them.

My name was never mentioned. Never. So I saw it as, oh, really? Okay, let me show you. I always had always more, I was always reacting more to people doubting me than people praising me. So that helped me again. So I didn't think, what I was thinking is I need to make the squad stronger.

I need to make the squad. I wasn't thinking about the World Cup. I need to make the squad. And when I made the squad, I was like, I need to start. I wasn't thinking about winning the World Cup because I wasn't in the bracket of thinking of winning the World Cup or dreaming about it. I wasn't even dreaming about being in the squad. And that helped me a lot, in all fairness, because I wasn't thinking about anything else than that. Have you always had that thing about proving people wrong? Yes. Even though you got to the heights where you got to as a player, I think me knowing you, even watching you play, you're

You almost play angry. Always. You know, so what's that? Has that always been something to sort of... But first and foremost, it was... My first thing is I always say that what you're scared of will master you. So my dad was that. So it was always me. For me, it was always to put a smile on the face of my dad, which was the toughest thing I had to do.

So everything after that didn't bother me so much. Don't get me wrong, it was tough. So I always grew up with that. Was he ever satisfied with you? I don't know. I'll be honest with you. Now, yes, at the time, no. So it's very difficult to... Because I got it after. I got the, oh my God. Yeah. But I didn't get it when I wanted to hear it. Right.

But then also put it on the other side. That drove me to be able to, I'll show you, I'll show you. And kind of praising people, not the sake of praising people. But that was always me, always me. And that's why you will see me and people are like, Terry, you don't celebrate your goal. You always seem angry. I say, yeah, because the way I've been educated is,

For example, let's say I miss a 1v1 and I score a goal after, I would have been, while celebrating this goal, I'm thinking about how did I miss the other one. And I know it's not always easy in your own head when you're like that because when do you rest? But that was my way. So yeah, I did play hungry for a very long time. Do you wish you'd enjoyed them moments more when you look back? You know what? No, I don't wish anything else. I don't regret anything because that's what shaped you. That's what made you. I'm not going to go back now anymore.

You know, that was my way. Some guys used to smile or whatever. But having said that, which is weird for me, is before a game, you always see me laugh and not be serious in the tunnel or whatever. And I used to wind people up that I played with. I used to joke. And then when the ref blew the whistle, I used to play. But it's weird, though, because if you think about it, when you see me giving an assist, I used to smile. Yeah. Not when I used to score. See?

So I guess the sharing part, the understanding also, being on the other side, going up and down, 89 minutes, you deliver across when you've been going up and down the whole game and the striker's been sitting there the whole game and then taps it in. And then he goes on the other side and you see that grass in your teeth, battling with your right back or your left back. And then people are like, oh, the hero. I'm like, uh. So you got more satisfaction from an assist? Yeah, way more.

You did at the Stadium of Light, I remember, three assists to Freddie Lundberg. And I remember I was 16 years old, I think it was 2002, 2003. And I think you beat us 4-0, you scored one. And the whole stadium just got up and applauded you when you left the pitch. And it's one of my main memories of watching Premier League football. It was incredible. It's kind of weird because...

You guys will not remember. Ruud will remember. That's for sure. I'm battling with him on the last day to finish top goal scorer. And that's the first time he passed me. That year. And I'll be honest, I was upset. I don't know if you remember the third one. I give the ball to Freddie. He can reverse it for me to score. He didn't. No, he didn't. Then I wouldn't have had the 20 assists though. Right, right. But this is what I'm saying. If I was...

Did I sometimes play for myself or because I made a great move and I have to finish this one, it would be great? Yes, I did, like any nine. You've got to be also a bit greedy. You need to have the right balance. But more often than not, if I was greedy, this is the last game of the season, I could have done whatever I wanted that day. We were sure to finish second. Nothing was going to happen and I still gave three assists. So this is why not only I say it,

But that's how I used to play. You have to play for me the right way. And I made mistakes sometimes for being too greedy and also to let it go too much sometimes because I knew I could go and then I just wanted to go, oh, it would be nice if I give him a goal and I'm like, you missed. Or my pass wasn't great also. Right, right. But I wasn't the right player. You know what I mean? Sometimes too nice and too greedy is not always the right player.

Who was it? You tried to pen. Do you remember the pen? Was that you and Perrin? Stop arguing. He miskicked it. He miskicked it. But you were laying it off. No, he. He was laying it off for you. I should have done it. You should have been the one to lay it off. I remember that. Is that right? This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybet.

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Because Barcelona was obviously with Pep and Messi and everyone, what was it like when you got there? Let's start with the beginning. It's not always easy to have it a certain way at a club and then you decide to go for various reasons that I mentioned so many times. You arrive at a club that won the Champions League

You have Eto'o in the middle, Messi on the right, Ronaldinho on the left. And I've been told that I was going to start on the bench by Rijkaard. And I said, I'm coming. I need to battle. I need to battle and I need to battle in training. When I'm not challenged, I look for that challenge every day of the week. That's what I need. I'd rather compete than being in the comfort zone.

And also to go there, to relearn to play a certain way. Arriving there, I was divorcing. I arrived there injured, learning a new language, a new style of play. People didn't care.

And as it should be. You know, you go, you go in the field. With the fans and everybody. Anyone, no one cared. No one cared. It's life, that's how it is. You have to find a way. You know, I always did find a way. Nobody said, oh, Thierry's getting injured. You know, sorry, injured, getting divorced, sorry. And at the time, you know how it is, while the divorce, I didn't see my daughter too much, you know, because of what it was. And you have to perform.

You just arrived, people are looking at you, you're the new guy, what are you going to do? What are you going to show us? We won Champions League, you never won it, you never won anything. No, but that's how it is and I understand that and I respect that and that's how it should be. Again, I go back, I find myself again in a situation, show me that you can perform with us and then we will embrace you. Other than that, I don't agree with if you arrive at a club and people...

welcome you, so be it. But it doesn't mean that they don't have to welcome you. Show them that you can be here and perform. And was it difficult? Yes, it was difficult. I'll be honest with you. Tell them the story you've told me before about Xavi. That's a great story. That's why I asked you. I'm used to it. So we, at the time, I'm upset. I'm a bit upset because

Because when you're the new one on the block, people are having a go at you more than they got at one before, which I understand. But then what it does, it does wind you up. So I always remember, I'm with Samuel Eto'o. We're going up the stairs in the company and I'm looking at, you know, the Mesquite Club. You know, when you go like, I'm talking to Samuel Eto'o and I'm like, Mesquite Club, come on, man. Is that more than a club? Yeah, more than a club. And I'm like, come on, man. Absolutely.

And Xavi was behind me. I didn't see that he was behind me. He goes, oi, what did you say? So I looked. I said, what? It doesn't need to be so. He said, what did you say? Don't talk about my club like this. You never won anything here. You shut up, work. When you win something one day, you can talk about it, okay? I looked at him and at that moment, he was well within his right for me to understand what he was because I actually didn't know what he was.

Now I know what it is because obviously when I lost there, I won there. So I understood what that club meant and what it means. But this is why also the club is what the club is because Xavi passed it on to me at that moment. Although I won stuff, he didn't give a you know what. He said, you're going to respect my club regardless of who you are, Winnie or if not, shut up.

I was like, oh. I didn't say anything back and it's not very much like me to not have the last word. But I looked at him and I went, I legitimately turned and I went, sorry. Was he the leader in that dressing room? I mean, there were probably many, but who? But this is what I said with Barcelona. They will all hammer you.

with what the club is who is that anyone that went to La Masia anyone that won the PK anyone they will talk to you about it they will they will they will just that's how they think that's how they are they will pass it on because they believe in it because they have a duty they have a way of playing you like it or you don't that's how it is

you know, they're proud of what they do, they're proud of the club, but it's nice to have people like that. Like, I could have turned and go like, who are you talking to? Like, no, he's right. There were a lot of players who came through the academy in that team, weren't there, obviously? It was incredible. I mean, probably seven or eight of them. You had maybe more, and not French players, by the way. Puyol, Piquet, Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta, Messi,

Pedro around at that time as well. And then you had some guys that were coming sometimes too, but main guys. I mean, apart from Ajax, that team in the 90s, but Barcelona has been dominating football with guys in the academy. I mean, who can say that? Like, you guys did it, but now that's... If you look at the last 20 titles in Spain, they won 11. Yeah.

And I know people always judge Real Madrid with the Champions League. They won 11. So that Champions League team that won, they won 11. You mentioned before that you played number nine for Arsenal, which obviously you drifted out to left. But when you went to Barcelona, you actually ended up playing out on the left side in that final against United in Rome in 2009. It was Messi up front, it was Eto'o on the right and you on the left. Did you like that?

Did I like to play high and wide on the left? No. But it's not my gig. How did he introduce that to you? Sorry, can I do... You know when you said it's not your gig then? Do you mean it's not your team? It's Messi's team. It's almost like you're just part of the... You have to understand when sometimes, you know, at one point you're Michael Jackson and another time you're Tito. I'm still in the group. LAUGHTER

Do you think I'm Tito? Who's the one with all Tito? You're Janet. Joking aside, what I'm trying to say to you is great players will understand what they need to do at certain times. This is why I love Dennis Bergkamp. But you have to show the guy that he can let it go.

If you're not the guy that's going to make me win, like when you see Lionel Messi, you got to be stupid not to run for him. Are you stupid? You got to be stupid. Like, I don't care. That wasn't my role or whatever. I started to enjoy pressing because when I went to Barcelona, that's when I started to enjoy pressing. This is why I get annoyed when people say a player, especially a striker or a

Yeah, a striker, a forward, whatever. When people say, oh, he's complete. Can you press? If you can't press, you're not complete. People always talk about strikers on the ball. What do you mean on the ball?

We all played. When you play away from home and a guy can press well and shield well, you played with Tevez, right? Yeah. OK. Rooney was good at it. That's what I'm saying, but people never mentioned that about the striker. They always said, left foot, right foot, header is fast. No, what do you mean? I enjoyed pressing at Barcelona. You didn't have to press much, Tukki. You were always in possession. I was in possession. You know what, Roy? This is one of the things. Every time

We used to leave the game and I used to go through the mix zone when people were asking, oh my God, you guys. I said, do you see how much we're sprinting? Do you see how much? Why do you think we always retain the ball? Because we don't let those guys play and who stops them first?

It was Sam. Sam was outstanding, by the way. Sam, putting pressure and, my God, hey, people always talk about his finishing and his this and his that. Sam was outstanding. Sam did something in the final. He went on the right alone and put Leo in the middle because Leo started on the right. Watch the final again. Sam went alone on the right to defend Patrice Evra.

Did you work a lot on the press of Barcelona? Because I've always thought that over the years, like everyone says how much possession they've got, but literally as soon as the loser, they just get after it. Was it actually like a work on? Yes, we worked at it. It became famous after the 6-7 rule, but if you look at Jan Roos playing before and players like that, they were pressing already. Okay, it was six seconds for us, but people, it's not like...

It's not like that we, well, we, not me, but they invented pressing. It's just a way of style of play. It was six seconds. We knew exactly, we knew what we had to do. I know, I know, and I knew what I had to do when Abidal was on the ball.

I knew when Iniesta was on the ball. I knew exactly what I had to do. And trust me, it wasn't nice because I knew most of the time I wasn't going to touch the ball. But they needed my run to free space for Andres. So every time on Abidal, because we were always coming out from the back. So when we were coming out from the back, ball is coming to Abidal. No matter what, I had to run in behind. If you don't respect my run, I go alone. If you respect my run, you drop. And then at the same time, Andres Iniesta used to come and get the ball.

So then when Andres is going to get the ball with someone running because he could dribble well. Now, because I run, you're trying to put me offside. Okay? But then Samuel Eto'o goes in.

now in run while you you know you're trying to put me offside so Samuel run but then I can come back now and play a one-two with Andres if he wants appearing from an offside position then I used to call it choose your poison that's when when Pep started to play with with a fake nine he always used to ask me to make run in between the the the center back and the right back so when if you possess the ball well and we always make run with Sam

You're on the ball. It's all you leave Leo alone that turns and runs at you and you let us go 1v1. That's on you. Choose your poison. Was there any time you'd think I'm going to go rogue and just take them on? I did. And I ended up on the bench. I did. I did. But yeah, you try. You try and then you see that it doesn't work here or whatever. Like I said, I go back to it's not my gig. You have to understand at one point that the most important thing is for the team to win.

If that goes through me, that goes through me, that goes through someone else, that goes through someone else. By the end of the day, we're all celebrating the Drabble and you won one on the bus. And that's the beauty of that team of Man United. In the final, Jürgen Kohl didn't score. On the way, they scored a lot. You scored at Juve.

And then sharing a message there. This is how you win a treble. This is how you win big stuff because everyone believes and some guys don't speak to each other. It doesn't matter. We have to be good teammates. We don't have to be good friends outside of the field. We need to perform and fight. That's all you want. And that's what we had. We had that in abundance on top of keeping the ball well and pressurizing the ball well. But I understood for a very long time that this is not your gig anymore.

You know, Barcelona is not the club of my dad. If it was the club of my dad, I'd do whatever I want maybe. But if you're not there, don't do that. Just play for the team. Thierry, the year before United had beat Barcelona in the semi-final and obviously then went on to win the final, that game, I was injured so I was watching it in the stands. It was a poor scores game.

Yeah, but the first 15 minutes of the final in 2009 was the first time I'd ever seen the centre-backs receiving the ball so deep on the six-yard box when Pique, I think, and Yaya Torre were receiving it.

Had you been doing that all season? I'd never seen it and it's what we've seen now for the last 15 years since. But it was something that we thought we were going to win in that first 10-15 minutes because you made a couple of mistakes and we should have scored. The way you started, I was like, oh my gosh, we're in trouble. The first 5-10 minutes, I was like, it doesn't look good. If we score two in that first 10 minutes, does history change in terms of the way we make it? It does, I'll be honest with you. And I can say it now. Final, I was injured. I couldn't sprint.

You had a hamstring injury before, didn't you? No, a knee. Iniesta had the hamstring. Hamstring, couldn't sprint. Yeah. Xavi couldn't sprint. No joke. That's a worry that two of you couldn't sprint, isn't it? No, no, I'll be honest with you. I can say it now. Remember, the whole back four was gone apart from Piqué. We thought you weren't playing or Iniesta. We thought both of you weren't playing. I trained two days before the final and I was out for one and a half months before that. And so couldn't sprint. Xavi also had something in his calf.

So if you went ahead, it would have been tough for us. Wow. So this is what I always say. This is what was nice with Barcelona. The club that I played before, and you all know it, I would have gone to bed, I'm not feeling well myself. It's going to be tough tomorrow. I'm not feeling well myself. It's going to be tough. My knee was... If you see all the pictures of the final, I'm almost staying up. I'm supposed to go... I couldn't bend my knee, couldn't sprint. Iniesta, the same. So...

But because of the way we played and we passed the ball, nobody dribbled. So that reassured me to play that final. Do you understand what I mean? I don't know if I would even have played the final knowing that I had to make the runs, crazy runs, and hold the ball and play alone up front, holding it, running at people. I would have said, I can't do that. But because of the way we play, and now we used to retain the ball and pass it more often than not, and not a lot of people used to dribble, I was like...

Yeah, I'm confident. I can play like that. I can play being in a situation where the ball will travel, not miss so much running. Andres was the same, Xavi was the same. Xavi always was, you know, you can never want to, you can never grab him. And so that's how we played that final. It's a game that defines the last 16 years of football history in respect of how every team now looks to play out from the back or most teams look to play out from the back.

that game was the first time I'd ever seen it to that level, of extreme level, of just taking so much risk where you think, what the hell is this? We had games, we had games in the league, but obviously, maybe you didn't see all the games that we played that season. But Pep, this is why I say so many times, Pep is just not normal.

And the way he sees the game, he sees a lot and too much at times because sometimes he will not let something go and he will change it straight away because he thinks that he saw something that can happen straight away. But the way he saw the game, the players that he had, and how he understood what he wanted, because to understand what Pep's want, you're dumb and stuff. Yeah. If you're not clever, you're not having it.

No, and the team would not have it also. You know, you're in a situation where you want to win. And so when we started to understand what he wanted, it became really easy. But Pep did some stuff that season that, you know, the year after he started to put Daniel Alves inside.

And then obviously he did it with Kimmich and now obviously all the fullbacks are going in. This is why I say that to invent positions, and I know it's not everyone's cup of tea. People say, come on, it's too much what he does. I learned a lot with him. I saw the game differently with him. You know how easy it is when you play a game

And the ref blow the whistle and he feels like he could play another half. Really, like, I used to look at him like, already? We're done? It's over? It's that, and I'm sure Roy, you will like that, and defensive-minded guy will love that. I enjoyed more stopping a team playing than playing. Me. Me.

You ended up loving that part of the game, considering your attack. Stopping, stopping. Is that down to Pep or just the players are wrong? Was Rodolfo at Barcelona? Who was at Liverpool and Man City? No, no, no. Tito was there. Tito was there. But yes, I enjoyed that part because there's something new for me.

and kind of knew the other part. You were getting older and more mature as well. Yeah, but I enjoyed it. You know when you just go like this and the guy kicks the ball in the center. You had... No. Never. We had to kick you, Thierry. No, I was talking about... It's a confession. It's a confession. But, you know, you think about... I was not actually before when we were on the Arsenal section, but we sort of moved off it, that...

Did that clockwork between you, Perez, Ashley Cole, and obviously it was Kleshi after that, did that just happen through training or did that happen through matches? That happened because we were on the same team

The way we thought the game, because Robert Pires, people don't understand how clever of a player he was. Very clever. No, A. A was, yeah. Oh, my God. You play with him in training. I don't remember him losing a game in training. If you're with Robert Pires, you win. The way he used to play, he could play now, obviously the distance would be, but the way he used to move, find positions and stuff like that. So I was a bit the same.

And then there was a guy that I want to talk about and people don't understand why in this country he doesn't get his respect, Ashley Cole. Ashley Cole was outstanding. I'll tell you why he was outstanding. Because first and foremost, I don't know if you know, he went to Palace, he saved Palace as a winger. Then things happened with Silvinho, I won't go into details. You guys know the story, right? Passport, this, whatever.

Ashley came back. I think he was about to leave, but then Ashley came back because they didn't know what was going to happen with Silvinho. When you have a left back that can dribble past his winger, well, it's not really me. He opened everything. So now I would be dumb to not find a situation where I can be alone.

Because now the midfielder has to shuffle across. Now Robert was moving. I'm going in behind. So then he started everything. So yes, we took the credit. And yes, Ashley Cole. Ashley Cole for me, you know, if there is a battle for him not to be the best left back I've seen, me, I'm not talking about everybody, Ashley Cole, going forward, defending the desire, what he won, why he won it.

Was it because he left Arsenal? Maybe I was thinking that, yeah. No, I tell you what, what I didn't like, so first and foremost, Ashley Cole is an Arsenal man. All families support Arsenal. And for me, I don't care what people say, Ashley Cole is Arsenal. Yes, he went, Ashley Cole is Arsenal. But the perception made... Yeah, because at the time, he didn't want to say what happened since Mr Dean apologised because they shook hands on something. Yeah.

and they came back with something else. Changed the deal on it. Yes. And I'm sorry, I saw myself at Juve being disrespected. Yes. I understood, Ashley. I understood, Ashley. If you check with someone and you look and you come on a Monday, it's not the same thing. And since Mr. Dean apologized... That's fair enough. There you go. But why still people don't give that guy his respect about everything that he has done? I've never seen...

I mean Ashley Cole was outstanding I think he was a brilliant player but if you talk about great left backs he doesn't spring to my mind but why not it's weird but when you talk about it you go yeah of course he was a brilliant player ok let's put it this way why is he not even in discussion sometimes you don't hear his name I think Cristiano Ronaldo said who's the toughest player he played against I think he does mention Ashley Cole quite regularly I think yeah

Roy can only talk about Dennis Irwin in that position. Sorry, yeah. You're right, Jill. He can't see past it. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybest.

Obviously in your coaching, who informs you most out from your football career? Your own game, Arsene Wenger, Pep Guardiola? Everybody. I took a bit from everybody. You kind of learn. Also people that weren't that great, you kind of remember what not to do. You learn all the time. Pep had a massive impact on me. Arsene was very clever in the way he speaks to people.

You can go in his office and you're mad or you want to tell him something about... At the time, you're very selfish in a way. You want to talk about how you can maybe improve your game to improve the team, but ultimately you will say, come on, boss, what...

You go in, you don't even talk about what you had to talk about. You leave. We talked about... I close the door and I'm like... Did he know what he was doing with that, you think? He was spitting off... Yeah, he knew he was diverting you away. He's very clever. I'll say that. He's not a confrontator. He doesn't like confrontations. No, he will always. But then you leave and you're like...

Yeah. Yeah. You're in your car, you're like, I'm going to tell him today. I've had enough of this, I've had enough of that. You arrive in his office, you leave and you didn't tell him anything and you feel great. So he had that thing with him where he knew exactly how to trigger people. And also what he had is very much like on Cheloti, like he was letting the players do what they have to do. It wasn't, you know what I mean? Like it wasn't someone, do this, do this. No, bring the, you know, don't do that. Don't move there. Don't.

Don't go in behind. Stay. No, I wasn't so much like that. Do you think that, because I always say the Arsenal team that you played in was the toughest team I played against, and not just in the Premier League, and I played lots of European games, that was playing against you between 2002 and 2004, but you never won the Champions League. Yeah. And when you're talking about the way Arsenal was there, could that have stopped you, do you think, in certain games?

I would say that sometimes we played games. So, for example, no disrespect to the team that we went to a final in 2006, right? That team has nothing to, if you compare the teams before, like you can't even, I don't know if anyone will start in the team before. There's one thing that I wanted to add and I talked to you about it. Dennis Beckham couldn't play away from home.

Sometimes. It is. And the way we used to play was very important for us. But not only that. Okay? That's not true. But sometimes, yeah, we did have that approach of playing away from home. 4-4-2, let's go. We were the same. We were the same. Yeah. You know, sometimes you need to... Okay, they're good. Okay. You're not going to have your usual, we own the ball, it's going to be easy, they're good. And on that run...

Of the Champions League 2006, it is the first time Arsenal played, you watch in the Champions League, we played 4-5-1. Then what a coincidence, we didn't consider goal coming out of the group stage. Because you had less players? I think what convinced him is we were missing players. So he was less convinced about what he could achieve with the players that he had. So he was like, OK, you know what, in bracket, maybe I have an excuse to be more conservative, right, to be more deep. But we played Juve.

Real Madrid, Juve and that Villarreal team was on the bad team. We didn't consider the goal. With that team, no disrespect, I'm just saying with that team, just because the shape was right.

Arsenal was at the club for such a long time and in the last probably 8 or 9, 10 years of his career he didn't win anything. What do you think of the current Arsenal situation of sort of 6 years now, 5, 6 years without a trophy but they're building and they're sort of getting better each time? That's a tall building now. The building is tall. The building is really tall. That's big. So I always talk to right about it.

Look, I'm not going to pretend I'm an Arsenal fan more than a guy that was born and raised as an Arsenal fan. But I understand at the very beginning you arrive. By the way, we won the Cup 2020, yeah? Yeah. Three years.

And Roy can tell you, you're also a coach, you're in a situation at the beginning where it's not your team. You need at the very least three to four transfer windows to be able to change everything that you want to change. Get rid of the guys that are on a good contract, that don't want to leave, that maybe don't like the way you play or you don't like the way they play. So it takes time. We finished eighth, we were not great. You have to give a manager time to be able to implement what he wants to do. So three years. Now...

The last three years, we've been in a situation also where we should at least bring a cup, whatever it is, or a final. Man United played five finals in their last five years. The United that everyone loves that, played five finals. In the last three years of building that building, you didn't reach a final. So I do understand when people ask the question, surely you should have...

compete for a trophy being in the final this year we didn't compete with Liverpool I don't know what people think but we didn't compete not once I'm massively disappointed with Arsenal this season I don't know if you can say look I'm not saying disappointment but it's normal that people are raising questions now about what the team is doing and yes we can talk about injuries and yes we can talk about this but I can go back to time also where we had injuries at Arsenal and no one raised nothing

2006, look at the injuries we had. Nobody said anything. Nobody said, oh, we finished. The only thing I was happy was we passed Tottenham on the last day. That's the only thing I shouted a bit about. But other than that, you finish in the top four and you go in the Champions League final and you didn't win. So yes, injuries. Yes, this, yes, that. But in the last three years, it's only normal

Now people are questioning how come we didn't bring a cup or being able to be in a situation to bring one. Do I think that Mikel is doing a great job? Yes, he's doing a great job. What do they need? Yeah, what they're missing. Look, let me put it this way.

I would say goal scorer in respects. Like, Roy, you probably whisper it, but you do need in them games to get the goal when the team's trying to settle. You know, that guy who can take the half chance so as he can settle everybody, then you can start to play your game. I think when you look at the fact that what we've drawn...

I don't know how many games, 13 games. You know, we've lost 21 points from winning positions. And those are the reasons why I say, yes, it's, what, seven years since we've had a strike. That now, for me, is the conversation...

That has to be had. A cup game against Newcastle, two legs, no goal. Getting beaten at home by Man United in the FA Cup when United aren't great. So they're the moments. You can understand sometimes, again, not a league title. That can be difficult. But a cup game, surely there's... That's why I was mentioning a cup or even to perform or to try to win one. But when you look at the injuries and you look at the players that came, OK, he brought players. He got Sterling when everyone wanted a nine.

He had time to get a nine.

He had time. I'm not the coach. I don't know what are the discussion. Everyone has been screaming for a nine. Apart when we win, by the way. Because when we beat Real Madrid, we don't need a nine. We need a nine. I don't understand the change of... You know, people change the way they talk. We need a nine when we're not scoring. And then suddenly we go on the run of winning at Arsenal. Nobody mentions that we need a nine. You need a nine for me. And a nine. We're talking about a nine. Thierry, I mean...

You're one of the greatest nines or goalscorers for the last 30, 40 years. So if they need one, who is that man you think could take Arsenal to the top? Because there's a lot of teams in the Premier League who've bought strikers. I'll be honest with you. And they've failed. One of my favourite nines out there at the minute is Julian Alvarez. And you know, we've been talking about it. Putting pressure, playing alone, low, defensively.

whatever you want to do. You see the free kick he scored the other day? He can hold the ball alone. He played at the Olympic Games. He played the Copa America. I don't hear him saying I'm tired or not tired. He plays it. Hopefully nothing bad is going to happen to him. He played everything.

And the way he plays it, you know, I just like him. But is it possible? I don't know. You know the two that get mentioned a lot, I see with Arsenal, Kikerez and Cesco. And Cesco is obviously a very young one. Do you think if Arsenal sign one of them for next season, do you think that could... Are they good enough to take Arsenal to the title? Because that's going to be the pressure on whoever is signed as the striker. That's the thing. It's the pressure that comes with that. There's a bit more. Because...

I want to go back to the injuries and you know I've mentioned it on our show and it's not an attack, it's just a fact. How come we have so many hamstrings injuries at Arsenal? Saliba again at the weekend. How come? We all know, we all played, usually it's how you train. You didn't do your ACL or you didn't, there are muscles injuries. So

For the last three years, go and check out how many hamstring injuries Arsenal did have. And it got worse. So surely, like I said, there's something to work on there because buying players, going to the right training camp, going to the right thing, doing your cold bath, hot bath, training well and not getting players injured, it's on the staff. Mm-hmm.

It's not on you, it's not on me, it's not on the staff. So that's also a work that needs to be done because we can talk about getting whoever and then what about if he pulls the hamstring also? Where do we go? We're going to again say we were unlucky? Because I don't mind that argument, but when we beat Real Madrid or when Real Madrid went to City to beat Real Madrid, they were missing their all-back four. I don't hear anyone saying that they were missing their all-back four. They play. You got to play.

You've got to perform. You've got to make sure that you have a squad that can, if Buka Yusaka got injured, or Kai Havertz, who was coming in. Your new director of football gone in, that'd be interesting. That's there. Sometimes you look at him and go, you're on a boat, Terry, looking for a player, go, is it possible? I think you need these guys to make it possible.

You have to identify. You're not going to get... Arsenal must have two or three strikers. Make one of them happen. Make one of them... Find the money. Make the deal happen. That's what the so-called big clubs do. If you look at all the teams recently that have been winning big things, more often than not, OK, you can look at the front three and you look at the team. But look at who is on the bench. How many times the guy coming from the bench saved the season. Yeah. When...

So, I think it was last year, no? Haaland went on eight games without scoring or seven? Julian Alvarez. Bang, bang, bang. Riyad Mahrez before. Bang, bang, bang. Scoring goals. And then after, who scored the most? Haaland. But when Haaland wasn't scoring or he wasn't injured or he wasn't there or whatever, Julian Alvarez. Boom. Goal. Riyad Mahrez. Boom. Goal. People always focus on the guy that's going to make a difference. That guy will make a difference if everybody is on point. Yeah.

Because how many goals can you score that you didn't win the title? So when the Invincibles started to, our team started to go, my goals were the same. We're not winning titles anymore. My goals didn't move.

But we're not winning titles. Do you understand what I mean? So as much as you're going to have that guy that's going to come, you also need to make sure that the squad is well equipped to be able to play on everything. Because this year, once again, because I look at all those things and I'm trying to see, you know, we went early out of the cup. Those weekends that we didn't play helps. Look at Inter finishing the season.

this year it's tough to play everything and you have to go also to the club World Cup or whatever they have to go I mean how do you play everything so the balance of the squad needs to be right you need to have I still think we need a nine and it's not because you go on the run of 15 and then suddenly we don't win or we don't score we don't have a nine but when we score nobody acts

I don't hear anyone saying we need a nine. Would Arsenal find £100 million, £120 million? Do you think that's available? They will. People say about Isak... Well, if it's available, then go and get someone. People say about Isak, but surely if Newcastle get Champions League, you think he leaves? That would be a tough one. I do like him. It felt a little bit like, ooh, he's not playing. Isak didn't play here.

Thierry, last question to you. Where would you love to see yourself in five years' time? Here with you guys talking about it. LAUGHTER Oh, that's great! LAUGHTER There's some two-year deals going. I mean, we speak about this a lot, and even when you're talking there, we've had other guests and we talk about stories, but you're moving everything around, you're always thinking of the game. I've never...

Explain to the guys I've got an insight into this when we work together on the Champions League stuff is that how much football do you watch? I've never known we'll come into the Champions League games we're across the Premier League and maybe like Barcelona and Real Madrid but you're across

I would say everything. He's more across the... No, I mean, we're on a completely different level today. Too much, too much. I do too much. Salford, do you ever watch Salford? Not yet. Not too much. Now that's... No, I... Do you watch that much football theory for your own knowledge or is it this idea that I still want to go back and... I've still got another role in football. No, for me, I see it as I'm still learning.

You always see something new. I'm still learning. Any game that's on, usually I'll pause and watch. I'll pause it for a minute, then I'll try to see it, and I go on another game. Let's say a game in Italy, I'll watch it, and I try to see if it's five, how can I watch it? So I have four screens, and I try to watch four games at the same time. And yeah, it's a bit much, to be fair. But I can't help it. It's...

passion that I have. I need to understand what's happening. Whatever game, I need to make sense of what's happening. I don't know where I'm going to be because there's something that happened recently in my life that I didn't care before. Before, I couldn't care what... You had to adapt to me. Everybody around me had to adapt to me. We're all selfish when we play, right? I want to go there. I want to go there. So the family moves. Recently, I think that...

coaching in internationally, like, you know, international level, so Belgium and whatever, gives you that right balance for life. And then, you know, you go back into the game and you're like, I'm going to win it. So then I went back with the under-21s

And then we had that run in the Olympics. And there is something that I wanted to take. And yeah, call it selfish maybe, but I wanted to show to myself and no one else that I could lead the team. And by the way, I didn't win the Champions League. And by the way, we didn't even win the Olympics, but we finished. But I got, the guys gave me something. I got a connection with them. And I was always at home at night and I'm like, am I that dumb?

why can i not i didn't get that that thing yet like to make people understand what i want and what can happen and i got that at olympics and i will be honest with you i proved to myself and again i'm not i didn't win nothing or whatever inside of me i proved to myself that i could lead a group and that took a lot away if you know what i mean because now the balance that i have with my family and the way i'm living my life

Why are you going to leave what you're doing, spending time with your family, to go somewhere? They won't even give you maybe six months or a year to put something in position to get the sack. When you move your family, you put it in a new school, and then after you have to stay in that town just because you put them in a new school and bring them back. Now, the balance that I have right now is just amazing. I would love to coach. I want to.

You might get the vibe that you got with the national team. That's the dilemma, isn't it? International football is a different floor to it. I agree with you. I've done it with Ireland. Great balance. But if you get that vibe with a club team, you get that spark that you've experienced. Yeah, it's going to have to be, in brackets, something stupid for me to stop what I'm doing right now and the balance that I have because the risk that you have. Okay, what do you have as a coach to protect you once you're signed?

you need to protect yourself before. Yes. Right? And also, I'm not in a situation where I can pick and choose where I can go. I'm not at that level and I'm not pretending to be at that level. But can I actually analyze the life that I have now and make sure that I don't make a mistake, not only for me, but for my family, for my kids, for whoever. Like you find yourself in a situation where like, okay, I'm going. Before the Olympic Games, because I didn't tick what I just told you,

I would have taken anything and everything. Yeah. Because I needed to prove to myself that I could lead a team. Were you beating yourself up? Yeah, yeah. That's something that we all do, right? It's whatever you want, you're trying to get that voice out of your head and trying to pretend that you, you know, and then at one point you go back because you, that's what you do. You fight. You want to prove to yourself. You don't want to stop like that. And now that voice is not in my head anymore. Yeah.

that constant voice. Maybe if something comes that is big, that I think that it can be good for me and my family, yes, I will say it, but

That voice is not there anymore. You know, like the dying voice. Like I was like, OK, I'm desperate to be coaching. I'm not like that anymore. I'll be honest with you. If you're going to beat yourself up, use a feather. Thierry, that's good because you're in a good place in your life. Yeah, it is. It's something I didn't value before. I'll be honest because you kind of... You're trying to make a name for yourself. Exactly how I started to play as a player, but...

I take what I wanted to take for myself and if something comes my way and is great, then it will be that. But other than that, I'm okay where I am right now. Brilliant. Thierry, brilliant. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Brilliant. Well done. Thank you. Just with you.

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