Martin O’Neill: Brian Clough, Working with Roy Keane & Management Career | Stick to Football 64
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Just before we get started, I just wanted to say a big thank you to our partner Skybet and please don't forget to subscribe if you like. I hope you enjoy this episode. Martin, this has never happened, where the guest comes in before the mob. Is that right? Yeah. Don't worry. Where am I? City? You're here, Martin. I'm here. Yes.

He's got his little Adidas deal on. He's got his little deal, his little sponsor deal. No, no, no, no, no. You're being silly now. Can we get some tea? Can we do it? Yes. Kieran. Yeah? If you like cold tea, you love Kieran. What do you want, Martin? Tea. English breakfast tea. English breakfast tea. I'd love some ice and my tea as well. Can I give you that? English breakfast tea, please, Kieran. And a peppermint one, please. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye.

Wow. That was pure love in that mind. That's brilliant. You've all got autumn colours on. It's like, you're all matching. We're autumnal. Autumnal. I mean, look at me in my black. I know, girl. Did you put a message in the group, though? No, you didn't. To see where, like, autumn colours? No, you did not, Jill. I know you didn't put a message on the group. What brand is it? Olive Eye Brown. Are you not into mini rolls, no? No. Would you like one of these? Yeah, probably. I will take one, yeah. Thank you. Have they got jam in? If you will.

Martin, how are you doing? You're looking smooth. I'm fine. Nice, nice. You look very smart. You've gone in for the mini roll. Yeah. Martin, how's your eating? Oh, brilliant. Martin, you're doing law studies. Have you got milk here? I was studying law, yes. There was...

Just to let you know, Gary read this about ten minutes ago. He Googled you. I didn't realise Martin was doing law studies. He should have known that. Everyone knows that. If you follow football... Yeah, I know that. I knew that. Did you know that? Martin, can you answer the question, please? I realised that I could look into the future because I thought to myself, I might need this when I become manager and then we play Manchester United.

And when you change all the rules. LAUGHTER Love it, love it, love it. Yeah. Like running after referees, like scaring them to death. Yeah. It's called gamesmanship or cheating. LAUGHTER

Depending on which way you look at it. That was your assistant manager, Martin. That's right. That's true. Yeah. But I would say, you know that referee? He kept running. If he stopped, we would have stopped. That's just nonsense. Did you chase a referee? No, but he kept running. And I was trying to hold the lads back. And they did. What was that? When was that, Roy? What was that game? It was a penalty against Middlesbrough. Yeah. It was their third. Nev lunged in from behind. Yeah.

of course the referee gave it but then realised that he'd made a mistake by giving it and then they charged after him seriously the fella was so scared he said if you give me a minute to compose myself I'll change my mind brilliant absolutely brilliant brilliant no question about it and do you know what happened with the penalty did you miss it I missed it yeah

Did they? They missed the penalty. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a five-minute delay. So was it a penalty?

Well, he felt it shouldn't have been, but obviously he gave it, of course. And we were disappointed with his decision. Well, he did miss the penalty. I remember now, he did miss the penalty after his seventh go. He scored the first six. He scored the first six, the referee told him to take it over again. And he finally put it over, over the bar. Was that actually a concern of yours when you were managing other clubs, Martin, that Manchester United got favourable? It was ridiculous.

Do you think so? Oh, no. It would have been a minute. You didn't need to do it because you were really good players. Well, some of you. But you didn't need to do it. But no, the referees were frightened to death of Alex. Absolutely frightened to death. Aston Villa got a penalty up. When I was manager at Sunderland, Aston Villa got a penalty up at Sunderland one night.

Martin's manager Villa it was a shocker wasn't it Martin? no what should it have not been? no it shouldn't have been a penalty so Villa had big decisions against Sunderland so it kind of evens itself out

Roy's never forgiven that. It was definitely a penalty. It was not, honestly. Iqbal Lahore had both legs broken in the penalty box. And Roy thought it wasn't a penalty. Did Villa win that game? I was probably there as a fan. It was a draw. You got your own back. You beat us one day. Did I chase him down the tunnel, Martin? I didn't. Did I have a few words with him? No.

It was madness. When you used the managers again, what was it like? Did you speak nice and was he okay? No, we didn't really know each other too well. Does anybody know Roy? It's true. That's what Teresa was telling me. But, yeah, yeah.

He got mad over a decision and he chased the referee up the tunnel at the Stadium of Light. And then I saw the referee after the game getting on the Villa bus to the Villagraff action. We give him a lift to Durham. I've got a pretty rough time to tell you the truth. You're arrogant, son. There's nothing to be arrogant about. Hey, John!

Brilliant. J.O. Neill. I told Johnny Giles and Billy Bremner to put their medals in the bin because they cheated. That's what you just did to us. Maybe the teams back in the day don't get the credit they deserve. This is where I need you, Roy, to keep telling me. He bottled it.

He bottled it because Alex Ferguson was the manager. Wow. Wanted to bring in an assistant. Oh, yeah. And he said, I want to bring Roy Keane in. After 15 minutes when I pulled him off the floor. They weren't training properly, so I'd rather fall out with him than just not do my job and just ignore it. Have you told him? Sorry, the answer is no. I didn't mean this. No, no.

Some of my earliest experiences of Brian Clough was that he had very little time for insulting referees or having a go at referees. It's true. And does that come from sort of, obviously, you played under him. Why did it get through to you but didn't get through to Roy? Well, I did when I was a forest. But when you were at United, obviously. Yeah, I was quite a bit older. I'd married... Yeah, that was the one thing, considering, you know, that...

He did preach that. He said that the referees were right regardless of what happened, you know. And I think he was done out of a decision or two in the semi-final of the European Cup when he was manager of Derby against Juventus. I think it was a bit of skullduggery went on there. I think he's mentioned it since, but at the time I had to accept it. And that was part of him, believe it or not. He just said that the referees are right. He didn't want people arguing with referees and linesmen.

And that continued throughout my time. I don't know whether it changed. Yeah, the same, yeah. So when you got to United, you just let it all out? Because you'd been told. Obviously, I was younger at first. I was a bit younger and obviously had a different role in the team, I suppose, yeah. What would he do if you did ever go to referee or question a decision like that? He would not. He was really mad at it. Peter with Peter, who was a really great centre-forward for us. Terrific.

Brian never really liked him too much, you know, because Googie, as his nickname was, Googie used to be always arguing with the linesmen, twittering away. Tuffy used to say to him all the time, he said, well, you just shut up. You just wrap up. Let the referee get on with the job and you try and score a goal. And that was it. That's the way he dealt with him. But...

Listen, that was one of the nicer things about him, you know. It wasn't all nice about him, you know. Was he nice to you, Martin? Was he hell, you know. He gave me a rough time, you know. Right from the start? Yeah, right, right. Yeah, I got a pretty rough time, to tell you the truth, you know. Actually, I've seen some of the videos back. I think I deserved it. So, yeah. Yeah.

I think it was, you know the things that you, when you step into management and you can learn something, I never really headed the ball too, you know, so, and I realised as a manager, the first thing I thought, if the lads are, it wasn't that I wasn't,

I wasn't a coward. I can't say that I was maybe... I certainly wasn't the bravest person that's ever played the game, you know? You know, if there had been up over the parapet, I might have been about third last, you know? So, but...

But overall, he wanted people to go and head the ball in the penalty box. And I used to think, well, that's what Larry Lloyd and Kenny Burns does. They can't bring it down like I could do. But I think those things affected him in his early stage and he couldn't get it out of his head. But in fairness to me, I'm saying this, I felt as if that I always had to prove him wrong rather than right.

We had a great, great player called John Robertson, little John Winger, brilliant player, John. And John became, he didn't start off like this here because Cloughy wasn't sure about him to begin with, but he became his favourite player. And John used to get the seal of approval, which we were all looking for. And the seal of approval came like this, you know, hey, John.

Like that, there's just a little thing like this here, fantastic. And then from the other side of the page, hey, O'Neill! You know? Slight problem with that, you know, slight problem. But when he did praise you, and I know I can't say every single day was a poor day, but it wasn't. It was like honourable.

Honestly, you've just felt 10 foot tall, no question about it. And in the European Cup final, which I'll mention, you know, well, I might as well go on and plug it. I plug both of them. Just having a wee joke. I know you missed out now. You've only talked about it for five consecutive years.

Oh, Roy's conversation with me every single day, every day at the Republic of Ireland. I said, Roy, we've got a game against Austria coming up. No, no, I can't get over it. Didn't play in that final. But you wouldn't have made it anyway because you got injured in the, I was at the Cup

Well, we can't live in the past, can we? Let's not live in the past. No, that's true. But let me finish. Well, we need to, isn't it? Let me finish my story. Right, OK. And so, no, in the final against Hamburg, and we had just lost Trevor Francis a couple of weeks before that, who was going to be our main scorer, and even though we were the champions the previous year, we're going in second favourites in the game, and at half-time,

He wanted to make a sort of a change. And seriously, and he was wanting to make some sort of a change. I volunteered for this change. I don't know what it was. I thought if I volunteered for it, it wasn't going to take me off then. And he said, no, I want you to stay because you're playing brilliantly, son.

And honestly, it was like a European Cup final. So I waited all these years for a European Cup final for him to play him brilliantly in the game. And seriously, you couldn't wait for the second half to go out. So suddenly, you know, you felt re-energised to go on. Come on. Did it give you a lift for the second half? Absolutely. Or were you even better? Honestly. Well, yeah...

I have to say I was really brilliant in the final. No, that's OK to say. No, Jill, listen, I did fine. John Robertson was... John scored the winning goal in the game and he had made the goal the previous year. Great player. With some terrific performances, Kenny Burns and Larry Lord were outstanding in the game. It was against Kevin Keegan at the time, you know. And, of course, Shilton was in goal. But some were great players. I played in front of Viv Anderson, who was...

Just brilliant right back. Really, really brilliant. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybet. With Brian Clough, did he give anybody any... If he could have that much power when he just gives you the thumbs-up thing, why wouldn't he do it more often? Keep on your toes, is it? Yeah, but then he was OK with John Robertson, though. Yeah. Yeah, that evolved in time. That evolved. When Brian Clough came to the football club, first of all,

John and myself were, we'd fallen out with the manager at the time. The manager had just got the sack, a fellow, a Scottish lad called Alan Brown. And I thought that, and he was trying to sell John to the third division up in Scotland. And seriously, so listen, you know,

I can fall out with anybody, you know, and you can have a difference of opinion and ability and things like this here. And in all honesty, as a manager, I kind of see myself now and I think, oh, I don't like that. Didn't like that. One particular training session we had, we'd already put this under Alan Brown.

And he'd already put the team up against West Bromwich Albion on the Friday. So we had went down the embankment to train. And so it was a reserves versus the first in a sort of a game. And somebody went past me and I didn't chase back. So that wasn't unusual. But I didn't chase back. And he stopped the game and made me do 20 press-ups.

You wouldn't believe it. Three minutes later, the same thing happens again, and I don't chase it.

And I think to myself, as a manager, I wouldn't put up with that either. So he made me do the press-ups. That's because you were left out of the team, Matt. No, I was in the team. Sorry, I was in the team. You just didn't run back. I was in the team for West Bromwich Albion. Sorry, I apologise. No, I was in the side and I didn't chase back twice. Because you just didn't want to? It's a good question, Gary. Yeah, I kind of...

kind of as Cloughy used to say about me he said you know you're arrogant son with nothing to be arrogant about so you know but that about me you know and anyway the fella went past me again his reserve player going past me

And so he stopped it again, made me do 30 press-ups, and then within five minutes stopped the game. Got into his car quickly because he parked the car around there, got up to the... and changed the team, and I wasn't in the side. And you know what?

He was absolutely right. Absolutely right. I couldn't say it. Did you think he was right at the time? No, no, no, no, of course. Not at all, no. I thought he should make me captain after that. But, no. But he's absolutely right. I would have done exactly the same thing. Did that change your attitude going forward? Did you start chasing back and stuff like that? It probably did, Jim. It probably really did. How old was Martin? Ah.

I was 53 at the time. I was 21. 21. 21. And so you're interesting you should say that because, yeah, it does. And then when Brian Clough did arrive, he brought with him a trainer or a coach called Jimmy Gordon, a little lad from down in Jimmy. And Jimmy's first words were,

Get back. The minute you've lost the ball, get back. I actually thought that he had written that song for the Beatles. That was all he has to say. Get back, get back, get back. Hold on. And eventually, I have to say to this guy, I did, not only did I chase by, I did. And one day, this is honestly Brian Klofka talking about, I didn't,

I don't know how you... We had this conversation before, Roy and I, about it. We had the best of him. My generation, or my team, or the team I was involved in, had the best of him because he was right on it. Right on it. He could remember everything during the course of the game. Remember, he doesn't have any iPads or anything like this here. And I remember one day where he did... That...

Vivid lost the ball going forward and the fellas made this chart. And I've chased back from a nothing position to get back in, to get the challenge in.

And we score a goal two minutes after that. Like, that's a long two minutes. He comes in at halftime. He said, you scored that goal to me. You scored that goal. No, no, I didn't. Yeah, you did because you did that running back and you chased it back. So that sort of thing, that's uplifting. That's really uplifting. Listen, there's lots of things he did.

which I wouldn't have agreed with, you know. And he could be rude, he could be arrogant, and he could be kind of be, you know, gnarky. He could be all of those things in a minute and a half, you know. But listen, he was, his whole personality pervaded the football club. I used to have a friend, a barrister friend. You started this conversation by saying about going into law. Yeah.

And I only did law for a short period of time. I realised I wanted to get out of it because I couldn't spell jurisprudence. So, but really I knew a barrister, I knew a barrister in Nottingham who did some football and did radio...

Radio Nottingham, and then I went to Radio Derby, these things. He was petrified of them, absolutely petrified. And his command of the English language would be brilliant, well in advance of Brian Clough's, but petrified of them, because Cloughy could put you away. These types of characters, I suspect Sir Alex Ferguson was similar in some ways. What separates them? Because they can be brutal, they can be kind, they can also be...

Like you say, they can put you away with a tongue. What separates them when you think about him? Well, I think it is. I think it's personality. Also, I think as well, too, your personality and what he's saying eventually...

You have to win. You have to win. And winning puts it there. You know, in the first couple of years of Alex Ferguson's reign, he's not winning. And whatever he says in the dressing room, sometimes you feel as if this message is not getting through. And so when it turns and it wins, then...

As he once said, it gives you power. And I think that's the thing. Brian Clough arrived at Nottingham Forest in 1975, won the first two games, we beat Tottenham in a replay, we won down at Fulham, didn't win for another 18 games. Wow. That's hard to believe. We did not win. We won some couple of,

Games at the end of the season. His time, really, we hadn't made a phenomenal improvement until Peter Taylor arrived. Arrived about 16 months later and he re-energised Clough.

He got the best out of him. Honestly, we saw a new Clough. Doing what? Doing what? Just, I think that Clough had, I can't say had lost it because he had a great personality and, but he hadn't, it seemed as if it was like a dead end with us. You know, he hadn't improved the side that much. We were still in the second division at the stage.

Were you dealt an amount as players even at this stage? That's a really good point, Roy. I've really thought about this. Now, honestly, memory plays tricks on you.

I don't know. Was he ever going to leave the football club? Not a chance. You're going to leave before him, you know, at the end of it. It's a very good point. I have thought about this here. I don't honestly think we really doubted him. I don't think we did. I don't think that, as he would say, I don't think you're in a position to doubt me. You're not that good to doubt. But then suddenly it changed with Peter Taylor arriving at the football club.

Clough got the old mojo back and stuff, I guess, here and then. And you could see the best people to tell you about this here would have been two players he signed, John McGovern and John O'Hare. They saw this renewal of energy with him when Taylor arrived, you know? But 18 games without a win now, you'd lose your job, wouldn't you? You'd be done before that. He was unsanctified. You couldn't, honestly, because he was big.

Remember, you're talking about a character that was on Michael Parkinson every seven weeks and things like this. We only have a couple of channels on TV as well too. People say he was a man of the time, and he was. Could he have been a manager now?

Yeah, he could have been. He would have had to have railed in. Sorry, he would have railed against a number of things, but he would have reined in and he would have... Do you remember that? Because I think it might have been Michael Parkinson. I think Muhammad Ali called out Clough. Who is this guy? He said, I want to fight him. I want to fight him. But when I look at Brian Clough and the Dam United and his time at Leeds...

And then you watch how well he, how well, what's his name, was it Martin Sheen? Yeah, yeah, Sheen. Honestly, it was like, you know, it was like him going into Leeds, that Leeds team at the time. I remember when I was younger, everybody supported Leeds and just absolutely slaughtering them.

And then, what, 60-odd days and he was out? 44 days. 44 days? 44 days he's out. But he was never going to do it. And the arrogance of him, he thought that he could, he could turn it around. He told the boys, he told Johnny Giles and Billy Bremner, they put their medals in the bin because they cheated. You know? You know?

That's what you just did to us. You should have put your medals in the video. You had that many of them. I don't think you could have afforded the donor. But we're talking about the time somebody like Brian Clark, even when you flash in and you'd see some of his punditries well before his time. It was never going to happen because Leeds were so strong at the time. They were the best side in the country and they had the best players. Johnny Giles and Bremner and people like that. Norimer. Norimer, Hunter, people like this here. So it was never... But he definitely said all that stuff. He said in the movie, he obviously said that.

He definitely said all that stuff. He said that to them. There was a couple of players sued, whatever. Yeah, I think Johnny Giles sued, I think, because... And I think I spoke to him some years ago when he did say that even with all of that, with all of the things that went on in those 44 days, he said, it's funny, he said...

I still felt as if I wanted to please him. That might tell you, but that might tell you everything. Is his achievement at Nottingham Forest the greatest achievement in English football history? Because I was part of it, yes. LAUGHTER

Well, I wasn't just part of it. I was the main instigator of it. But it is. You know, couldn't tackle a physical. No, but people got to... Yeah, sorry, Gary. Absolutely. Yeah, I don't... Well, it'll never happen again. Leicester City's achievement in 2016 was terrific. But for a side to get to go get promotion, immediately win the league... Against that Liverpool side. Against the Liverpool side, absolutely. To win the league...

And to win two European Cups and two League Cups and things like this. It is the greatest. And with all in a period of three or four years. This is what I was saying about the big club. What do you judge it? Is it the championships or the history because Forrest are a big club? I know. Well, we all obviously were footballing people and we respect all of it. A lot of

teams back in that they almost forgotten about with the Premier League and Champions League and maybe the teams back in the day don't get the credit they deserve maybe I know we do this is why I need you Roy to keep telling me but it's like coming up from the second division in a league where Liverpool are dominating yeah

And winning the league, and then, again, people need to watch it. Miracles, isn't it? I believe in miracles. I believe. Yeah, that's true. They've got to watch that. I think you might have asked me the question, or maybe you didn't, a couple of weeks ago, but it's, you know, like Ipswich coming up now. Ipswich coming. And if Ipswich survive, that'll be a great achievement. Yeah. You know? But we went on, and I do. The opening game, we, I remember this, we opened up at Goodison Park, opening game, and we won.

The game was played in our penalty area for the first 25 minutes. We never could, couldn't get out of the box. And I don't know how we got up the field, but we forced a corner.

and we scored from the corner and we never looked back wow yeah well we talk about great it was but does it go back to what we talk about another modern recruitment did he eventually get some lads in John McGovern's coming in so however brilliant Brian Clough was he still thought I need to get people in Kenny Burns Kenny Burns right two three major signings in the year that we won the league

Kenny Burns started pre-season, came for us. He was a centre forward for Birmingham. He turned him into a centre half, played centre half.

We then signed Peter Shilton after six games or seven games. Big, big signing. Big signing for Shilton, most magnificent goalkeeper. And then around about the same time, we signed Archie Gemmell. Archie Gemmell. Honestly, you'd love it. Archie. Archie could start a fight in a phone box. Seriously, Archie would be...

But he was brilliant. He was absolutely brilliant. He could run, he could pick it up and he could go 20 or 30 or 40 yards with the ball. He was excellent. Would he have signed these players himself or would he have had someone that would have signed them for him? Well, obviously he knew Archie because he was at Darwin with him. Before that, the year that we got up, we signed Larry Lloyd and to me, that's the first time I thought...

We mean business. Because he's a top player. Liverpool. Absolutely. Although he was done at Coventry and they fought with him. I think he was fighting with Gordon Millen. But we signed him for £60,000. He came on loan, first of all. And Larry, I know, unfortunately, he's passed away now, but he was a big character. He could stand up to Brian Clough. Wow. And, yeah, big time as well, too. And I thought, you know, sometimes you're sitting in a dressing room and have you ever thought about management, which I never did,

But if he did, Lloyd was the one that I thought, he'll be big in this game. Because he could say it, he had the language skills as well too, he was really good. And yeah, he was just brilliant. When he signed, first of all, he came on loan for us. And we were playing at Hull City in this game and we travelled back by train.

And so John Robertson and I were looking at this big player, you know, and he said, so funnily enough, he just got a cigar out. He got a cigar out.

And he said, nice little club you have here. Nice little club you have here. He was big signing for us. Big, honestly. I think he was major because it's the first time that we thought, listen... This is a proper guy. Yeah. Leave a brain club, obviously...

getting the spine of the team right isn't it yeah absolutely but the Kenny Burns I was young at the time I didn't even know he came from centre forward till I watched the film of it I didn't know he was a centre forward before he came to Forrest I thought he was a centre half yeah no I don't he was a centre forward and played alongside Trevor Francis at Birmingham Kenny Kenny is without question the ugliest man in the world did you

He played you in different positions, didn't he? Yeah, a few, yeah. But yeah, if there was injuries or whatever, I'd send a half. I played right wing. I played striker for a few games. If there was injuries, Neb, yeah. Which was, out of those positions, the one that made you think, I don't like this? I think the first few months, I was definitely, which one I didn't like? Do you know, I was a bit younger, right? I just got on with it. No, I didn't mind. Again, I was, what, 19, 20. I would have played anywhere. Yeah.

Do you think bringing in a few players each season, like building the team, was the key? Because now sometimes we're seeing an influx of money and just bringing in eight, nine superstars. Do you think building the team... Forest signed 30 players, didn't they? 25 players two seasons ago. Yeah, they did. Well, that's more than we would have ever done ourselves. You're playing league matches and you've got maybe 15 or 16 players at the time. So the turnover wasn't that great to begin with.

Eventually it did when I think that Brian Clough and Peter Taylor were kind of falling out a bit in their last year about signings. Peter Taylor was the major signer of the players. He was the one that spotted the players. Brian Clough was the one that managed them. So it didn't matter who Taylor would have brought in.

Clough could manage him. But Taylor was the spotter of the players. He brought Kenny Burns in, he put Peter Shilton, he wanted to sign for quite some time. Archie, they knew anyway. And...

And we signed a lad called David Needham, centre-back as well, too, for centre-half. Did really well for us as well. But it wasn't a major... It wasn't as if to say, we'll add a couple of... We went with the same side for a couple of years. It was the latter stages when the team was getting a bit older and the changes we were making. And I thought, in all honesty, I thought we were signing lesser players at the time. What made Robbo turn it around? Sorry, Robbo, if you said he was...

Robbo was on the verge of leaving to a third division team in Scotland. So what made Robbo's career turn around? Well, I think Peter Taylor had a big effect in that because we did... Peter Taylor must have seen him play some... John Robertson has made his name as a scourge of European full-backs.

As a left winger. A little bit poorly, you know. But John, when I went to Nottingham Forest first, I went there when I was 19. Yeah. And John was 18. And he'd left home, he'd been at... He'd left Scotland at 15. So he'd been down in Forest in that time. John was a gifted midfield player. Couldn't run, couldn't hit it. Brilliant, that's two of us. And... But could...

Ping it all over the pitch. Give him the ball. He could deal with the ball like John could really deal with the ball. If you'd said to me in my first three months at Nottingham Forest that this boy here will actually be the fulcrum of a European Cup winning. He's the fulcrum. He's a main player from left wing.

You would never have believed it. And it was almost by fluke that he found himself playing wide left-hand side because we signed a lad called Terry Curran. And Terry Curran was a right winger and a really good player, Terry. And Terry was playing right wing and all the ball was going down the right side. And I was in midfield at the time, which I loved because, you know, somebody else is doing the hard work. And John was doing the graveyard shift up and down on the left-hand side.

Curran got injured, the ball shifted to John and our fortunes shifted and Robbo became the player. Do you remember him, right? Do you remember John Robson? Do you? Yeah, going down the line, jibbing it over the back. No, I don't. Honestly, great little, honestly, lovely. I'm going to watch some clips after this. He was your assistant, Marty, as well, wasn't he? Loved him, loved him. He was a better assistant than somebody else. Who would that be?

He had less of an opinion. He used to say go with a gut feeling. I wish he had said that to me. You're on about the modern wide player. You're on about Robbo, all the stuff he couldn't do. He could put a ball in, couldn't he, mate? Just half a yard. Absolutely. I played wide right-hand side.

And I used to say to Viv Anderson, Viv, who was the best full-back in the country, I said, Viv, we need to get the ball because it was going down the left-hand side. As Brian Clough said, so it should be, son. But we had a lot of left-foot players. We had Ian Boyer, we had Tony Woodcock, we had Peter Wythe, we had Archie.

And we had Gary Birtles. All of those players all turned left. So all that little, it was a little coterie down there, you know. And I'm over in the far side of the field and it's 20 past three and I haven't had a game. And Clough, this is so honestly, we were playing this game and I said to Viv,

Viv, come on Viv, tell Sheldon, get the ball out here, get it out to me, get it out here. And Viv's going, no, no, I have to make a tackle first. I don't know how you ever felt at full back, but Viv, who's the brilliant player, but had to make a tackle first in the game before he got his confidence.

foot in top which is not a great deal of help to me so anyway so I finally got it I remember seeing the clock end and it was 20 past 3 and I got the ball and then I fell over it a couple of times and then he came in at half time and Clough said he said to me he said we're going to fall out son he said because the linesman's having a better game and he said and I said well it's down the left hand side

And, oh, I made a mistake. Because my biggest problem, answering back. Okay. My biggest problem. And I said, it's been down the left-hand side, though. And he said...

What? He had heard me. He wanted me to repeat it. Did you repeat it? I repeated it with a squatted lip. And I said, it was down the left-hand side. And just say that I'm Clough, Roy's me, and you're Robbo. And he said, what did you say again? What?

I said, it's down the left-hand side. So it should be, son. He's a genius. It led me to the strong impression that I wasn't, you know. But, yeah. He sounds like his one-on-one management, though, was really good. Like you said, he was giving praise to some players because he recognised they needed it. He was getting the best out of players. That's a good point, Jill. And everybody said to me, I just felt that I should have had more praise from him. Yeah.

But then again, as I said to you, let's look at the videos and I think he might be right. Yeah. But, yeah, but you waited for that praise. And if it was done in front of the team, then you really did feel great. Yeah. But getting the best out of you, because some players do need a little bit of an arm around them. And I think that's the difference between great managers, the know-how to get the best out of individuals. Yeah, I think you're right. I think he felt...

I don't know why he did, but I think he felt that I could take the criticism. No, no. Just be crying in the toilet. Obviously, would he be the biggest influence then on your managerial career? Of course. Absolutely. Honestly, I had a really, really, really good manager at international level, Billy Bingham as well too, for Northern Ireland. And he was the first one really to make me think about management, possibility of management, because I never really wasn't that bothered about it. And...

But in terms of club influence, week in, week out, hour in, hour out and stuff like this, it would be very difficult not to have learned something from him. How did Wickham come about for you, Martin? Wickham, yeah. And what made you say, yeah, I'll take that, yeah? Right. Well, it's funny because I started to apply for jobs then. And I remember applying for a job. I never...

I used to write it in my own writing. I didn't type the letters up or stuff like this here. And I tried to make little stupid little jokes about it. But I applied for Mansfield, applied for Chesterfield, applied for Stockport County. I remember, I'm definitely sure it was Stockport. I sent away a letter, never got a reply. They appointed someone. And then six or seven months later, they actually sacked the manager that they appointed at the time.

And about two or three weeks after that, I get a letter from Stockport saying, thank you very much for your letter. It was from the original one. But they'd obviously kept it in the drawer then and said, but you've been unsuccessful this time. No, I was unsuccessful the first time. So I didn't get it. So Wickham came along because I met by chance Alan Parry. Alan was Alan Parry, the commentator. Alan.

Big Liverpool fan, big Liverpool. And Alan, I'd met Alan a couple of times before at some London functions for one day. And he, we met at Norwich. I was doing a little bit of work for radio for Norwich and Norwich were playing Liverpool. And Alan had just come up to the game and he said, oh, I thought you might have applied for our job because I'd applied for it a couple of years before that and didn't get it.

Yeah, right. So, and even though I got down to the last one, so you're not only an Irishman who can get down to the last one and fail it, you know. But anyway, but so I didn't get the job. And he said, oh no, the manager's gone a couple of weeks ago because they lost to the Metropolitan Police in the FA Trophy. Yeah, okay.

And he said, I thought you would have applied for it. And I said, no, I didn't even know it was available. He said, well, I might make a phone call to the chairman, but he said they're doing interviews today, which was a Sunday.

And funnily enough, I got a call back later on that they had appointed Kenny Swain. Remember Kenny? Yeah, right back. Kenny was the assistant manager to Dario Grady at this stage at Crewe. Yeah. And he was given the job. And then, would you believe, on the Monday, he turned the job down. He took it and turned it down, and then they asked me for an interview. That's how it got. Wow. Isn't it mad that you had to write a letter? Yeah. Did you do that at Valencia? It did.

Yeah, but he could have typed a letter. He just wrote a letter. He could have typed it if he wanted to. Yeah, I had the ability to type, I think. I just didn't have a typewriter. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybest. You were talking before about not chasing back as a player, but when I played against your team, Leicester, it was one of the hardest teams to play against, one of the hardest working teams. But I actually remember just thinking, now, who was your midfielder? Villa.

When they started all the stats, you know, the analysis stats were how far people would run. I'm sure you were the manager with a midfield of... Who was the midfield that you had? Midfield, we had James Miller played, we had Stylian Petro. Downing. We had Stuart Downing play. Downing. And we had Gareth Barry as well, too. That midfield at the time ran more than any other midfield that ever run on Old Trafford. I remember Tony Stradwick, who was the actual...

your performance guy at United, and he came off, and we always used to get the stats the day after, and he always tells us how far we'd run. And that midfielder, no midfielder at that time, I think Bill Bow did maybe a couple of years later with Bielsa, but that midfielder ran further, Old Trafford, than any other midfielder. What was the score in that? I don't know what the score was, but I just remember him saying that, and thinking about you not running back, but your teams. All your teams. The things you learn, I listen, absolutely.

And I'm probably a bit self-deprecating in that sense, but I did learn. It's part of the thing. You learn something. But talking about that, talking about, which gives me an opportunity now...

The League Cup final in 2010 when us and Villa were playing Manchester United. You didn't play in that, did you? No, no. Playing Manchester United. You want to listen to this. Three minutes into the game, three minutes at Wembley, into the game, Viric downs Agbon Lahore. Oh, yeah. Penalty kick. We get a penalty.

And thinking, he's going to send him off. It's a sending off defence. But no, the referee, I don't remember his name, Phil Dowd. Phil Dowd, Phil Dowd, Phil, you know, could be corpulent a little bit at different stages of his career. And no, not only didn't he send him off, he didn't even book him. But he's got to book later on. So,

All I'm saying is with the energy that we had in the team and I know Manchester United and that's Alex Ferguson, that's not a done deal after three minutes. We have a better chance with 11 versus 10. And yeah, and so, but he bottled it.

He bottled it because Alex Ferguson was the manager. Wow. That's my view. That's my view. What was the score that game? They beat us 2-1. 2-1. They came back to win 2-1 in the game. James Milner and Gareth Barry, though, they are runners. Downing. When you look at the longevity of their careers, working with them, can you see why they had such long careers? Well, I signed him for... James Milner kind of reminded me in many aspects. I signed him from Newcastle.

But I could see sometimes when you're wide right-hand side and you don't have any help and you're looking for a centre forward to come and show and you want to do something because you're confronted with things. James had many aspects, the same sort of problems that I had as a player. You know, Viv's going to come down the outside of me, that's great. But if he's not there, then I'm looking to do something because sometimes

Not that I was slow, but not blinding pace to go past the people to do the things. So when then I realised James had a bit of a problem with that there, but put him into midfield where he could go up and go all day and he wanted to play and great attitude. Was that the best team that you ever managed, do you think? Well, we... At Celtic, we got to the UEFA Cup final in 2003. Mm.

against Justin Mourinho's side, the same side went on to win the Champions League the following year. And we could have, we could have, we got beaten in extra time, 3-2, with a man sent off in the game. We could have won. Their play acted for a lot of the time, didn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

every time they scored a goal they went back to Porto to celebrate Was your first year at Celtic you won three trophies in your first year? Thanks to I know you just checked that up Well done Knowledge

knowledge big Sunderland fans I was going to ask when you first went into Celtic what was the one thing you changed or what made you get that success instantly because to go into a club and suddenly win three trophies Rangers were strong back then what

Rangers had a really strong side. The Rangers team of then would beat this Rangers side. Who was the manager of Rangers at that point? Dick Advocate. So they'd lost the league by about 21 points before. Obviously needed some decent players. I inherited some decent players. I had Paul Lambert, I had young Stelian Petrov at the side who was trying to make the grade.

Did you bring in Chris Sutton? I brought in Chris. Chris Sutton. I brought in Chris because Mark Voduka wanted to leave. Yeah, he left. Voduka left. Yeah. And you were up there at the time. I was there the year before. You were there before. Because Henrik was just coming back as well. No, no, no. He'd gone. He'd gone at the time. I would have done. But...

I would have done it. I wouldn't have known you were the same age as me at the time. I was 35, I was 35 at the time. 35, that's what I mean. And, no, but no, no, right, he had gone at that stage, so, but you were, yeah, you were up there, so you'd know the things under, and, yeah,

The confidence was really low, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. Really low. Unfortunately for Barnsley, yeah, it wasn't a good time. And signing Chris Sutton was big for us. If the Duke had stayed at the club, he didn't want to stay, then I wouldn't have signed Chris. Was Chris from Chelsea at the time? He had a bad time at Chelsea, Chris. So when we were trying to sign him, I think Dermot Desmond, the major shareholder...

He wasn't sure about signing Chris. Eventually, Chris became his favourite player, but he wasn't sure about him. He said, because he's not played well at Chelsea. I said, no, he's had a nightmare at Chelsea. But he was a good player at Blackburn. And Norwich, too, early on. George Graham was really interested in him. And I said that he and Alan Shear had scored 50 goals, and I didn't tell...

Dermot, that Shearer scored 49 of the kids. LAUGHTER But that was an important marker to put down, Matt, when you've just gone in the door, you're having a little battle already to get a player in the door, yeah? It was, absolutely. Just to begin with, you know, the first thing. And I won that particular battle and...

We won the first couple of games, which was great. Then we beat Rangers in a big, big game. 6-2 in my first game ever. Wow. Yep.

at Celtic Park, and we were three nil up in 11 minutes. Jesus. And I turned around to John Clark, little John Clark, John who was a member of the 1967 team. Yeah, the Clark lion, Lisbon lion. And I said to John, how long's left? And he said, there's only 79 more minutes to go. And I think that that game, and Celtic fans talk about it now as like a seminal game. It was. Because we...

And I'll tell you what, it didn't immediately think you were going to win the league, but what it did do, it set a mindset for us. And in the course of time, in the next couple of months, I signed Alan Thompson, who did brilliantly for me, a little bit of Didier Agathe, who played great. And then I signed Neil Lennon. Lennon came in December time. And I honestly think, in my view, Lennon was to us what you were to Manchester United. Right.

Honestly, the driving force, driving force of the side. I know Selden made him captain of the team, but he really was that. Paul Lambert was the captain. Paul in a different manner, you know. But Lenny was, you know, gravity was all of those things. And he did great. Never passed the ball any further than 15, 20 yards.

but was always there. And I had had him at Leicester. And in fairness, if I'd not signed him at Leicester, I wouldn't be sitting talking to you now. Was the partner at Leicester was Mosley, is it? Was it Mosley? Mosley, I signed Mosley. I knew for all the... Listen, I did my homework. When I went to Wickham, I was out every single night watching football because this was important to me. This is my... If I don't make it at Wickham, I'm not going to make it. Mm.

Because this idea that they talk about making your mistakes down below, that's nonsense. You make your mistakes down below, nobody wants you up above. So I was out every night, so I knew where the players were. I used to watch Chelsea reserves play every second Monday night at Kingstonia.

down there where I knew all the boys I knew Muzzy I knew all the players I knew where to go I'm not saying that Muzzy would have signed for Wickham Wanderers but it took him to last Is that where Robbo was good with you? Robbo was a good Robbo came in Robbo didn't have much time Robbo had very little time with me at Wickham Wanderers I did that really essentially on my own

But I always wanted John to come with me, you know, at some stage. Because of his personality? His personality, you know. Much as anything else, yeah. Yeah. So his personality, John used to say to go with your gut feeling and things like this here. But he was great. Players loved him. New players. Players loved him, yeah. They loved him. They didn't like me, but they loved him. You see when you say how Brian Clough treated you and how you needed some love, was there any...

Any of the clubs where you think, I'm not going to treat that player like this or I'm going to treat this player like this? How did you deal with the fact that you didn't get that much love? It's a good point. I felt that what I wanted to do was that I thought to myself, I'll go in with this idea that I can treat everybody the same way.

It's just nonsense. You know, people are different. You will treat them. I think that you have a, I think you have got a kind of a set of rules that, you know, that no one will break, but you do treat people differently. And I felt that in the dressing room, I sometimes, because I'd seen it as a player, right, where some of the stronger boys in the dressing room to a weak manager would have a go at the younger lads. Yes.

I'm telling you, it didn't happen in my dressing room because I wanted the younger boys. They used to have a go at Stevie Goppy at Leicester. Don't you have a go at him? Don't you have a go? Don't you dare? And Stevie Goppy played every single minute of a 42-game season for us at one time. Didn't always deserve to play, but I put him in. I put him in because... And you do treat the players differently to a manner... And I wanted to probably...

I probably wanted to be treated the way I maybe wanted to be treated myself. There's a certain trait, Martin, you must have liked in your teams. Leicester, and a lot of times you played three at the back, didn't you? Big strong centre-half. You're talking about Cups there, for example. Cups worked for us when we were at Ireland.

And Gop wouldn't be probably the most skilful player. I'm trying to be polite here, but obviously you could get across him. But when you look at him and go, I like my white players, like Milner and these lads, you go, I like to walk right for him. There's certain traits you would hang your hat on all the time. Yeah. Stevie Gop, he would work back. He could hardly make a tackle, but he'd still be a body back there. And the minute...

And you know that he'd want to take people along. He'd want to whip the balls in and things like that. He brought a good balance to your team, didn't he? He brought a balance. Your problem with playing three... Your centre-backs... We signed Frank Sinclair from Chelsea and Frank was their quickest player at the back.

But if you've got three centre-backs, you're not all that quick. Then they don't really want to go out. You know, they don't want to go out there. They want to stay in. So that was a problem. But I had Matty Elliott. Matty Elliott was a super, super player. Super player. He could have played centre-forward with no problem at all. And a big...

Steve Walsh, Tiger and Sinclair. Sinclair was the quickest and you were hoping that he would maybe clear up a bit of danger when the boys missed. Generally speaking, if it was a foreign body that had got past, that would be...

if it got past Walsh, that was doing well. They were strong and I'm pleased you did say that we had a hard-working side. If you were defending a corner at Filbert Street and those centre-halves came forward, they were absolute giants. It was like, oh, here we go. We weren't the biggest team in the world. It was a problem. Just going back to your assistance, you worked with John Robertson. Take us through the process of how you thought

Because it would be brave, seen as a brave decision to bring Roy in alongside you. He did right. No, Roy's obviously profile, his status in Ireland and the idea that obviously he'd been a number one. So where did that come from and how did it happen? I think Roy might see it differently, but we'd done a little bit of TV work, put an ITV, that's right. Combination street.

And, you know, just maybe after the matches we got a bit of chatting. I never knew Roy at all in Nottingham at the time and obviously by reputation more than anything else. But I said, listen, at an international level, if there was an international job come up, would you fancy doing it? And he said, yeah, listen, we'll go with it. As it turns out, the Republic of Ireland came up

I'd never had any problem taking him on because I think, listen, you know, sparing his blush, he's a big, big character, divided opinion over Saipan and things like this here. And, but, listen, I'd never had a problem with that. Mm.

The problem was passing out. John Roy had fought with most people at the time, but John Delaney was the chief executive at the stage. Was he a fan of Roy? A fan of Roy's ability. I think everybody is out there, but I think Roy had given him a bit of stick over time. But when I did say to, I said, listen now,

He wanted me to become the manager. And I said, listen, I want to bring in an assistant. Oh, yeah. And he said, I want to bring Roy Keane in. And then after 15 minutes when I pulled him off the floor, he said, yeah, yeah. He's fine. He's fine. And I dropped out. And I don't think I ever really recovered from that. But no, I have to say he was amazing.

He was terrific. And it was going to be a problem. I realised the problem because Roy had been a manager. Used to making the decisions. Last decision going out. And those things are hard, you know, for a manager. But I will say something about him, you know, even though his counting in golf is crap. Whatever team that Roy had put out...

and say, this is the thing. And if I'd said, listen, I see your point, but we'll go with this here, you wouldn't have him coming back round and saying, listen, to anybody at all, I'd have picked another side, you know? He'd just give me a roll again. One of my best experiences. Seriously, right? He'd never let you down in that aspect. You'd never have found him going...

It's somewhere along the way in saying a little wee bit of minute, you know, know what the money is. I've seen this before. John Robertson and Stevie Walford, we were like that. And with Roy, it was great. Roy, yeah, of course. Listen, he's an acquired taste. There's no question about it, you know.

But at the end of the day, I like the idea of that, a quiet test. I think what helped me, when I didn't work with Merton, obviously in international football, I was thinking, people are saying, I think the fact that I'd been a manager previously was a big help to me, not in an ego way going, I'm used to it, because obviously I had huge respect for Merton, I'd met him a couple of times, so going in, knowing what the manager and knowing my boundaries, I found that easy. No, but just the idea of you not being the sort of, if you like, final decision maker. I was fine with that, I was fine because it was Merton, I think other managers, I might have been, you know, whatever, but

Because obviously what Martin had done in the game, the few conversations we had, the other staff members, we all got on great. We had a decent group with Ireland. It was competing. And obviously, again, you'd have chats about players and the squad. What about this? But as soon as Martin made the final decision, it was done. The good thing for all of us, we felt Martin, whether he was or not, was listening to us. But then he'd have to go that way. But having previously been a manager...

I kind of got that. So I was, there was no hangups with me. And I go back throughout my career, my experience with Ireland, with Martin, and particularly going to yours, probably the highlight of my career, which sounds bizarre. I always talk about, we always talk about playing. It's all about playing, of course, love playing. But our time with Ireland was probably the highlight. I just loved everything about it, the dynamics, the energy, the group.

working with Martin the other staff members we'd something going on there there was a few good factor the lads were decent we did lack probably no goal score we lacked a bit of quality all those things but we got through yours we missed out on the playoff

One of the best times of my life. It's extraordinary for you to say that, for the medals that you've won in the game, to think that that is... Seriously, that's really... 100%. Honestly, that's really genuinely lovely to hear. Could you have better rapport with the players and stuff, do you think, having not been manager? Could you let your guard down a little bit? I suppose a little bit, yeah. There was a little bit of that, where obviously ultimately I wasn't making the final decision, so I was a bit more...

Maybe a bit more hands-on with the players. But I didn't mind it also when I was a manager, keep my distance. But it was a nice change for me, different role, different dynamics. I love the flow of international football. You're there for a few weeks, it's intense, and then you step back. I loved everything about it. Was it as well, the fact that it was your country...

And, you know what I mean, you qualified and, you know, you've done the best you could with the team. Yeah, of course. There's obviously an emotion side to the job. Yeah, I think the fun... We beat Germany along the way, you know, with about 3.5% possession. LAUGHTER It's all you need. Yeah, and it's all you need to win the game, you know. And...

and then beating Bosnia in the playoffs to get there. And the dressing room was just wild afterwards. It's really, really fantastic. But I think the opening game in Paris when we played Sweden in Paris and we had like 50-odd thousand in the game, colourful sight between ourselves and Sweden, you know, Sweden with the yellow nuts. And I must admit, that was fantastic for 25,000. And this...

fans to come to the game. And this is what Irish fans want to do. They want to enjoy a tournament if they can. So getting there is really difficult, but to be there. And the night that Robbie Brady scored the goal against Italy. I think we were a bit older. I think I could take it in a bit more. When you're a player, you're obviously in the zone and you're all under pressure.

But that kind of couple of weeks in France, I always have to step back a little bit and really enjoy it. Just were there to get results, to get out of the group. And then the game against Stately was fantastic. Yeah, it was, absolutely. We were family members there. Were there times where you...

Your frustrations with the players, you've talked about one here before, haven't you, where you were obviously supporting Martin, he was the manager, but you felt frustrated with a couple of players and you had to hang back or whether Martin would let you go sometimes. Yeah, there was a bit of that, but that's the balance you get with obviously the manager assistant. Martin would obviously give me, I wouldn't say give me leeway, but he'd obviously let me have my personality, bring that to the squad. But obviously I'd have to know boundaries. Sometimes you think hopefully you got it right,

So what you said, you wouldn't just go in and start blasting off on the players? No, not really. Like, during a game or half-time? No, like, half-time. Training, training, no. It was quite... Roy had a good little training session thing that worked brilliantly for him. Roy, listen, he wanted people to train properly. That's the whole point. Standards. I think when I... Just for example, Ireland's a good example. I might have fallen out with maybe two players who I'd have no time for.

Because to me, they weren't training properly. So I'd rather fall out with them than just not do my job and just ignore it and just pretend it's not happening. Yeah, challenge people. And like you were challenged by Brian Clough, or I was challenged by him. Later on, you might go, maybe they had a good point. So the one or two I've fallen out with, with Ireland, and I'm in literally two players, I've no problem with that because they weren't doing what we were hoping to do. And that was over the course of a number of games. It wasn't one session where you come in hard and somebody goes, you know,

So I'd have more regret if I kept my mouth shut and done that. I think that's a bigger crime than confronting people saying, listen, that's not what we expect as a manager and a staff. You have to come up and compete. And in tournaments, you can't carry people, can you? And we did. The group that we had, generally speaking, were great people.

They were a really good group and they had to because we lacked other stuff. You said before that you wouldn't necessarily have been an assistant manager if it wasn't for Martin. What was it specifically about Martin that you actually felt you could be an assistant manager but others wouldn't maybe? You can lie, you know. Obviously, I'd come across Martin a few times against his teams as a player, as a manager. I admired what he'd done. Obviously, his stuff at Celtic and whatever and his connections with...

With Ireland, I think there was something about Martin, there was a bit of chemistry, we met once or twice, but certainly it wasn't a pal's act. I wasn't going in going, yeah, wink, wink, give me a job. I knew it was going to be professional. I knew Martin would give me some opportunity to coach with the players. So from a selfish point of view, it was a great job for me. And because it was international football...

It automatically takes care of itself. We weren't in each other's pocket all the time, which is really good. Do you feel you should have stayed longer? How long were you there? What happened is that we...

I think the press lads in Dublin, which I never really got on with, you know, I think they... I know I've said this before and they're saying that this is nonsense, but I felt a bit of like an outsider. I'm from Northern Ireland, you know, and I'd been Northern Ireland player and captain of the side for...

But I never felt any problem with the crowds because a lot of Irish fans would be Celtic fans, you know. So we had never a problem with the crowds. The crowds came in droves to the games because, you know... And I think...

We had to try and get the very best out of them for a couple of days' work. And with respect, as Roy said, we weren't the most skilful side, but you're trying to qualify for a competition. And in fairness, Roy's contract and my contract were the same. We wouldn't have had a renewal or we might have got, but the only way that we were definitely going to get a renewal of contract was qualifying for the Euros in 2016. So we got this opportunity then and...

Sometimes Roy was saying, listen, I think we should continue on and do it. I must admit, I wasn't sure, but Roy convinced me and I thought, okay, maybe it was time. So we tried to qualify for the World Cup. We got to the playoff. We got to the playoff fine. We were fourth seeds in the group. So we get to the playoffs. We actually got through to the playoffs. We played Denmark.

We draw in Copenhagen, so we have to win. We have to win in Dublin to win. We score first, we miss two good chances after that to go three. If we go two, we...

But because we'd only drawn 0-0, the away goals was going to count at this stage. They hit us just before halftime. Ericsson had a blinding game. He scored a hat-trick. And I, the first interview I do afterwards, the fellow, he's primed anyway, to tell you the truth. He's primed. He says, is this not a sackable offence? Jesus. We're qualifying, trying to qualify for the world.

And my last year, really, you know, it was difficult. We were playing in that Nations League. No one knew what the rules were. No one cared at the end of the day. And they're basing things like this here. So it just got a bit messy at the end. You asked me at the start, I remember, I don't know how long we'd been there, maybe six months or a year. And obviously one or two issues with the media users. You said to me as a person, I remember going, no, no, no, no.

Particularly Irish fans would be fair like that. Towards the end, remember I said it? Yeah. I think you were right. I was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But listen, it happens. I'm not blameless in these situations. Sometimes I don't help myself. Well, Roy said that. It was honestly an amazing experience, wasn't it? It's honestly, that's really nice you to say that, young man. And then Forest, you worked together.

Well, for a few months we were there. Forest. We were there for 19 games. But the strange thing is... What happened then? In fairness, Roy left and I think that, yeah... But we both agreed when we were up in Ireland it would only kind of work at international level. Yeah. Yeah, that's probably true. The squad takes care of itself. So then Martin with the Forest, Martin had gone in and I said, listen, we've done our time together now. And you've been up there a week or two and again Forest pulls at the heartstrings and says, listen, come up to the summer and have a look at it. And I did go up to the summer but it just... No.

It wasn't the same as the international stuff. I just felt the club stuff. Again, that's where maybe I'd maybe want to make more decisions. At club level, it's what time you're training, days off, pre-season players. Whereas at international level, you don't really have that kind of day-to-day debate and stuff. So that's where I just stepped back. And I was gone the following day. So...

I know, that's why I blame you. But yeah, Marinakis. What happened then? What had happened? I'd had an opportunity to manage the club about three or four times before and I didn't do it. In fact, I was, after Mark Warburton left in the January of the previous year, they asked me. So I go to the interview and

And I'm sitting down with the interview, the people. I don't really like them, you know, but they asked me for the job. Is this the group, you know, there's a lot of his henchmen there. I don't really like them. And the following year, not the manager left, and I'm interviewed again, the same room, same group of people, same people I don't like.

And I take it. I'm off my rocker. And I take the job. And the marionette has said to me, listen, don't worry about this season. We'll deal with it. We'll get ready for next season. And we had 19 games and we actually won the last three. And then a week of pre-season.

And they come in. He said, the way you want to run the football club is not the way we want to run it. Fine. Okay. Right. That's the way you want to go. And that was it? And that was it. Okay. Wow. So, anyway. And the funny thing about it is this there, that the next manager came in seriously. And within two weeks, I'd signed 15 players. 15 players. You know that.

And we did need some new players. There's only one lad who remains in that football, and that's Yatesy. Yatesy. And we brought him back from... We brought him back, Rowan. I brought him back from... He was out in loan. So we brought him back, and in fairness to him, he's a great heart, great honesty. He did well in the game we watched the other week. He did really well. Very well in the game, isn't he? And I was speaking to him afterwards because I was doing the...

doing the punditry work. And, yeah, it was great, really. And he mentioned you, Roy, in Glowing Dispatches. Good going, man. Remember when we qualified, Matt? Remember that night in the casino we had? How good was that, that night we had? I don't mean throwing loads of money. I'm just saying the staff were together. You have a nice glass. Yeah, it was one great night that we'd qualified for the Euros. We went into Dublin afterwards and...

What a great night. We had a super night, I must admit. He was in great form. He was in really good form. Good memories. Honestly. It was really terrific, I must admit. Anyway. Have you enjoyed it? Sorry. No, I was just going to say, have you enjoyed it? The answer is no. No.

I didn't mean this. No, I know you didn't mean that. You're enjoying yourself. Before we wrap up, you've got to tell them your golfing. I overheard... Obviously, I don't play golf, but when we were with Ireland... That's true. There'd be two or three of the staff who play golf, but they're always short when they're playing doubles or whatever. So they dragged me out one day. Do you want to play one? I'll go out and just help the numbers.

So, Maritimes with Shames, I'm with Cups, teams. No, I haven't got a clue. I'm after about 14 or 15 holes. I'm way behind. I don't play golf. So, at once, as we got to this hole, and I was obviously way behind everybody else, so they said to me... It was. We'd kind of... Sorry, I'll not interrupt. So, we get to the green. They said, how many shots have you took, Roy? And I went, like, I think it's six. Six to get there. This is, I think, a power three. And they were like, hold on a second. Don't stop. They went, let's count this back. Now...

I'm way behind I'm not even in the competition basically it was seven I think I made a mistake of one are you cheating don't let me forgive I'm not even winning I'm way behind I made one mistake and I was a cheat cheat for life no I'll tell you what it was it wasn't just that hole it was the other it was the power five it was the longest power five in Christendom

It's the longest par 5. Rory McIlroy couldn't get there in three shots. He couldn't get there in three shots. And it was a par 5. And Roy had his driver using a 7 iron off the tee and had gone into the trees. So we're in the buggy and we're heading on down the road. And we think, well, this may be up here. And the next thing, this ball comes past us right onto the green. And I said, Roy, this is 10 minutes later. And I said, Roy, how many is that? He said, that's my third. LAUGHTER

That's what we realised. That's the type. That was the hole before we decided to cut this shot. It was better than pouring my hot sauce. I was playing with cups and I'm learning the game so Martin then takes a shot and goes into the woods. And I'm going, fucking get in there. Cups would be nervous of me. I hope he doesn't get too upset. I went, fuck him. So next thing you know, Martin's in there for definitely 20 minutes and we're going...

You'll never find it. It is impossible. 20 minutes. 20 minutes. I found it. I heard him shouting through the woods. He shot him straight out. It's impossible. Righty, righty. Not only did I find it, because it was covered by two Japanese prisoners of war. And honestly, and it was...

perched up on a lovely little hill. Brilliant. A lovely little hill, which I think was Shergar's head. Anyway, and remarkably, it was just there, just nicely to be hit. Shergar's head. So, yeah, that is true. I made one mistake, would I? Did you have a ball in your pocket? No, I didn't. When you're playing law, you didn't need a ball in your pocket. But the two kids, it's really funny.

Ah, what do you mean? So we're playing this evening. Don't exaggerate this now. This particular evening. And so we're playing and Roy's using a seven iron. And so he's obviously mad. As he said, it's a par three and he's a seventh shot and he's halfway down the fairway. And...

So these two young lads, it's just, it's in our hotel. It's just in the golf course attached to it. And the two lads are just on the outskirts, you know, on bicycles. They're about 14 or 15. And you can see Roy's back there and the two lads are just beside me. And they say, hey, mister, mister, is that Roy King there? And I said, yeah, yeah, it is. I said, do you think we could get his autograph? I said, no.

Not a good time. Not a good time. Not a good time. Really not good. If you watch him, if he hits a decent shot, maybe you've gone up towards the green, which he'll not reach. We're going up to the green and we'll see how we go from there. So the two boys are back on the bicycle and up to the green. And so Roy finally gets up to the green and the two lads. Roy, Roy. Yeah.

Can we have your autograph? Oh. I don't think I swore. And the two lads, I met the two lads last year. They just got out of a psychiatric hospital. It's mentally scarred. Mentally scarred. Mentally scarred. Aw. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybest.

Martin, we're going to finish with some community questions, which is amazing. Community questions? Yeah. What the hell is that? Who is the best player you've ever coached?

Well, that's these types of questions. I like it. Good question. Yeah. The best player I've ever coached? Well, the one who pulled me out of more trouble would be Henrik Larsson. Wow. He's a great striker. I'll give Henrik his magnum. Henrik, amazing. Lots of great players, but you're talking about a goal scorer. I remember once saying to John, to John Robertson,

John, I think we were playing, I think it was at St. Johnson. And I said to John, John...

I don't know, Henrik hasn't scored yet. He said, we haven't kicked off yet. That's a crap joke. If you hadn't made it as a footballer, would you have continued playing Gaelic football? I probably would have done, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably would have done. Would have liked to have won an All-Ireland medal at County Derry, yeah. You played at Croke Park, didn't you? I played at Croke Park. I played minor football. Wow. I played under-18s for Derry for a couple of years and I reached... We had a college's final called the Hogan Cup and...

and the college I went to St Malach has reached the All-Ireland All-Ireland College has finally got beaten by a team near Roy for down in Cork that's a big deal that's a big deal the All-Ireland that's a massive deal it really was good but it was an under 18 competition but down in Coliseum the players were 33 four boys come on with big beards

honestly under 18 if you could change one result from your career UEFA Cup Final yeah definitely UEFA Cup Final two in that yeah that would have been amazing that would have been amazing with 75,000 fans come down to Seville wow yeah that was a job to watch yeah yeah I'd like him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to see him over to the game I'd love to

Who was your better side, Celtic in the early 2000s or Villa in the late 2000s? It's a good point. A really good point. You know...

Celtic lads were great. That's a hard... Does it change if you've won a trophy with one of them? I do, absolutely. When you've actually got a trophy with Celtic. The two things, and I'm being serious for a moment, the two UEFA Cup with Celtic would have been fantastic and if we'd won the League Cup, I know it's only talking about the League Cup, but to win the League Cup against Manchester United and I'm having arguments with Mr Lerner, the chairman at the time, and that might have gelled us together again instead of me throwing my...

toys out of their pram a couple of months later, you know? What was the best atmosphere in Newcastle-Sunderland or Reinges-Falc? That is a tough one, yeah. It's a different atmosphere, I've found. Massive, aren't they? Yeah, I've seen a different atmosphere. I suppose at Sunderland as a kid, I must admit, and that was a big game. I was there, we drew both games. We won at Newcastle my first time and then we drew at...

We should have won at Newcastle and we got lucky in the game at the Stadium of Light. But the Celtic Rangers game is just something else. I've never witnessed anything like that. It's something else. Yeah, it is. And it's because I'm from Northern Ireland, brought up as Irish nationalist Catholic, so you know all about it. But Ibrox is a great stadium as well. Great stadium. So the fixture...

And I think it misses out a bit at this minute because the away fans are not allowed in. Once they get that, rectify that and put it back again. There's a fellow, a friend of mine who wants to come, never been to an Old Firm game, wanted to come up this year and I said to him, listen, wait until the away fans go back in, then you'll really see something. If you could change one thing about modern football, what would it be?

Football today. You should give me a wee bit of time to change the... What would it change?

Do you like VAR, Matt? Are you all right with VAR? Do you know what? It's been going, what, six years now? I still don't know. I really don't know. I don't know. Do you know what kind of variety it is? You know the boys taking the corner kicks? Taking it out of the court. There should be a new rule set in just for this one. We could say if it's not over the line, then it's not over the line as England won a World Cup. And...

I just thought I'd throw that one in. But if I had my rule, I would say that you have to have that ball inside that little... Like not touching the line. Just for that moment.

It really does irritate me. The latter two, they'll take it right to the edge. So the curve of the ball is cut in the line. Yeah, it's a good one, Martin. I'll change that. A final question. Let's go for more, Martin. If I had...

Yeah, and I would, do you know why I would, I would take the time of the referee out of his hands. So we'd have a clock, I would have the clock, it would be a bit like they do in rugby. Yeah, I agree with that one. So they start the game and I would, yeah. Yeah, that sounds good. What about the NFL when you're there? It's like three hours 20 for like 60 minutes. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah.

We went to the Super Bowl. We had a good trip, went to San Francisco. We did a great few days there with some of the staff. We went because we qualified for the Euros. We went to some parties. No wonder it was the best time of his career. To be honest, it was great. Best time of his career, Super Bowl, casino. What's the best piece of advice you've ever had? I think it was...

Your friend, Rory McIlroy, Rory gave me advice, told me to pack it in. And I did. And I did. No, I didn't. I don't know. I remember this, and this is about...

First couple of weeks, I had never been an apprentice, so I went straight to being a professional player, from being a student overnight to being a professional player. And within a couple of weeks, I was walking down the embankment to go on training. And the...

We had a youth team trainer called Bert Johnson, really nice man, really nice man. I don't know how the conversation came around, but he was the first one ever to say to me, listen, this game, you know, it's about reputation. He said, you know, honestly, he said, it's perception, reputation. This is going back, late 1971. He said...

I'll tell you something. You said, if you get a reputation for being an early riser, you can lie in bed all day. And that's, to me, that's it. It's perception. Honestly. That is so true. I like that. Do you? Yeah, I like that. That is so true. Yeah, I like that. Because you always say I'm late and I'm actually early. And I've still got the reputation that I'm always late. Yeah, you are. Same with me. I've got the same. That's George. Remember what, right? Yeah. Brilliant. I think that's a nice place to finish with that beautiful piece. Can I eat this? Of course you can. That's what it is.

I've been watching it sat there on that beer mat for about an hour. Because you kept asking me a question. I don't want to be munching this.

All those things, Neville, that I used to think about, you know, I used to tell Roy, I don't like that twat. I really don't like that. A lot of people say that. I really, honestly. How can he ever talk about money when he's got no business? You're fine. You're fine, girl. He's lovely. A lot of people say that. You have to meet Gary in the fresh. He's beautiful. He is lovely. He's not beautiful, but it's fine. I mean, it's a beautiful thing. I'll not go any more than that there, honestly. There's some people not like it.

It's a perception. It's a reputation. Oh, no, no, that's not perception. That's truth. That is absolutely true. No, it's just you're in everything at this minute. I'm expecting you to be reading news at 10. Thanks for listening and thanks to our partners, Skybet. If you want more, please subscribe and you won't miss an episode.