Ruud Gullit: Cruyff, Chelsea, Newcastle & Winning The Ballon d'Or | Stick to Football 81
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If you want real attention, start advertising on podcasts with Acast. Start today at go.acast.com slash ads. Was Ruud the first? Tim. Tim. Ben. Ben. Was Ruud the first Dutch manager in the Premier League? Yeah. Was Ruud the first Dutch manager in the Premier League? I think he was. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I'll find out. Was he?

Ask Pat in here. He can't have been. I think he was, no? You know the guest that we've come on now? Have you forgot him? What? Rude. I'll take him. Rude Van Nistelrooy. Rude Hulley. Egg. I thought you were about Rude Van Nistelrooy. I think he was one of the first foreign managers. Who was the first ever foreign manager in the Premier League? I think it might have been a guy. First one to come into my head was a fella called Joseph Vengelos at Villa. Early 90s. There might have been one before him. Joseph Vengelos.

It was a big thing at the time, wasn't it? Dutch manager, that's interesting. What would have been rude, yeah. What was that mid... That was... I played in his first game as manager of Newcastle. But it was obviously Chelsea, wasn't it, first year? Do you know, we played a semi-final against them at Villa Park. I was centre-back for United. He did me in the air on a cross. You were small for a centre-back, weren't you? He was a massive unit, by the way. Oh, I know. Fucking monsters. I've got a great story playing against them. Oh, I know.

So if he was to manage Chelsea, what would that have been made? That would have been 96. I think he's the first Dutch manager in the Premier League. Don't Google it. Yes, right. They're autumnal colours coming into spring. I think it's time now, isn't it? I like that green. I like what you've done. I like the colour. Yeah, I like what you've done there. I'm always blue, aren't I? Yeah. What's this, Gary? Is it a new one from you or something? I like it, actually.

Yes, Ruud! Yes, Ruud! What a legend. Do I have to pour it in this? No, you can keep it in there if you want. I would have poured it in there, Ruud, to be honest. When I met you the first time, you were a nice guy. I'm not a nice guy, Ruud. Oh, he's a lovely guy. He's changed. No, he's lovely.

Such a nice guy, Ruud. He's not a nice guy, Ruud. No? No, no. You know that, though, don't you? He is a nice guy. There's comments in Holland about him. There's comments in Holland about him? About him, yes. Why? They don't understand him. What was that? Google Translate. That's why they think he's a good guy, don't they?

Not everything about bank guy, I'm actually a good guy. Who did I see Van der Vaart having a go at the other day? Oh, he's proper on the front foot as a pundit, isn't he, Van der Vaart? He slaughtered someone the other day. Every time I see him, he's just hammering someone. Schneider had me smothered also, I saw. Schneider's as well? Yeah, because he said that it was goalkeeper's mistake, the goals of Rice.

Was he? Yeah. I agree with the first one. The first one, the wall. No, the wall. The wall, yeah. The wall. But not the second one. The second one was a brilliant strike. No, if he gets the wall. Yeah, he got the wall wrong for the first goal. Yeah. You did say about that. Remember we met? Remember in the World Cup we met for breakfast? That time you caught me out when I was...

We're having breakfast. And obviously all the TV companies are staying in the same hotel. So we go down for breakfast. I bump into Ru. I obviously didn't know you. So we were chatting away. I'm being dead polite. And you spoke to me about injuries. You said, what's been the worst injury you had? He asked me. And I went, strange question. He seemed really interested. I went, oh, my cruciate. I said, I had a hip operation. That set me back a little bit. And I said, what about you? And he went, he said, I used to always get side strains.

He was saying, I went, the sage trance. He went, yeah, you know when you're lifting troughs? LAUGHTER Remember? LAUGHTER LAUGHTER LAUGHTER LAUGHTER LAUGHTER LAUGHTER LAUGHTER LAUGHTER LAUGHTER

All of a sudden, he goes, huh? And backstabs you. That's a horrible feeling, to keep a grudge. It's very difficult. But, yeah, he can't. You can't swallow the turtle. You can't swallow it. It's still there. I just played it to my center half. He said, what the hell is this? And...

The fans saw us throwing everything at the bus. People sent boxes with spiders in there and snakes in there. You don't need to hit it hard. You just have to place it, thank you. And then all of a sudden I scored a lot of goals. That's easy. Do you think that he would take it? No, he... He would do the same thing. He did. He did. He slide tackles me and I just jump up a little bit. He gets a red card and I say, now we're going to play football, okay? LAUGHTER

Ruud, what are you up to now? Do you want to get back into management? No. No? I didn't want to be manager anyway. I never wanted it. I just got dragged into it. How come then? By... Can't be. No, no, no. Chelsea fans and the board wanted a trainer because Glenn Oro left, went to the national team. Yes. And they were begging me to do it. And I didn't want to because I knew also that this is the end of my career as a football player. Plus you get a different relationship with the guys you play always with it.

So I had to think about it. And so therefore, that's how I rolled in it. But no, I didn't want to do it. But I did it because then all of a sudden you are in it. And then you think, okay, I'm good in it. Especially I started very well. And then you think you're good in it. And then you have to make also good decisions.

And the only thing that is bad about this job is, not the only thing, but the one certainty you have is that you get sacked. That is what you know for sure. And it's not a nice feeling when you get sacked because, you know, you think to yourself, I tried to do a good job, but then, yeah, that's what it is. You get sacked. So what, you're thinking, you're thinking about the sack all the time? No, no, no, no, no. When it happens the first time, you think, you feel, you feel humiliated a little bit. You feel like, hmm, what is this?

You know, if things were bad, OK, you can understand. But if things are not going badly, so what is this? So there's a lot going on behind your back, a lot of things happening around you that you have no influence on. And that's what I hate about this, about the job. Were you sacked at Chelsea? Yeah. They sacked you? Yeah.

Because at the time it was like a bit of like you were negotiating with a new contract. You'd finished fourth and sixth. No, later on I found out that there was a lot of money going around because all of a sudden the best players wanted to come to Chelsea and they were offering a lot of players that I didn't want. Big money. Big money. And then I said to myself, no, I don't need these players. For what reason? I don't need it. This is okay, so...

So I was a little bit in the way. This was before Abramovich, wasn't it? Yes, I was in the way. And eventually, I think that Bates was also in difficulty with the club. I think he was almost bankrupt until Abramovich came. So it saved him also, and good also, because I have no grudge against Ken Bates because lots of the things he didn't even know what was going on. So who was doing it? Who was the person that was forcing the players on you? Who was doing it? Yeah, you know...

There was people behind you and work with you that you think to yourself, my God. But they all get punished for what they did. What, the sporting director or scouts? Yeah. Coaches that you had with you. Yeah, it was awful. By your own coaches? Yeah. You had people around you who took care of you. And then all of a sudden you think to yourself, huh?

Backstabbed you. And that's a horrible feeling. Especially because you did everything in the best possible way. And the worst thing of all was also my mom had breast cancer. So I had to go to Amsterdam all the time in order to support her. And then they said, yeah, but he's never here because he's always in Amsterdam. And I said, okay. And they knew. They knew. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So therefore that was, that's horrible. When you find that out.

Did you ever confront them, coaches, after? No, no, no, because, you know, after a while, you have to think to yourself, OK, is it worth it to keep a grudge? It's very difficult. But, yeah, he can't. You can't swallow the turtle. You can't swallow it. You can't swallow it. You can't swallow it. You can't swallow it.

I've never heard of that. It's stuck in there, so therefore you need to. That's what you learn, but it's not nice. Can I, just something, using obviously Alex Ferguson better than me, there was always a quote that always stood in my head, stuck in my head with Alex Ferguson. He said, as a manager, you've got to control the board behind the board.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Almost like, obviously you've got the ball, but there's so many people around the club, you know, maybe even sponsors or people. But it took him a while. What I'm saying is, people always constantly chatting and talking and just in people's ears all the time. But that's why, you know, also he was also on the verge to be sacked at Man United. Mm-hmm.

Because it didn't go that well in the beginning. So therefore, you need to be lucky that they stay with you. And then you have to build a team around you. Because you had people everywhere who was working for him and were, you know, were the people who listens to all the bad things. And then they can help you. And then eventually, then you have control. Took Wenger also a long time.

It takes a long time. And nowadays clubs don't have a lot of patience anymore. They want instant success. Yeah. You see that clubs nowadays that is run more by business than by heart. See what happens with Milan. It's also bad with Rome. You see it with Chelsea also. You don't understand it for some reason. Man United. Man United. So...

It's almost, it feels as if the heart is out of the club, you know? For instance, I remember also when Souness met the new owners when you played the final.

And the owners didn't know who he was. He was furious. Wow. That's so bad. Furious tree. Yeah. But I met also the… So you're talking about the new… Yeah, the new owners, new American owners didn't know. The FSG people were there right now. No, I met also the owner of who was doing it for Chelsea. What is his name? Todd? Todd Bowley. Yes. I met him at a meeting for all the clubs that was by Nassar. Wow.

of Paris Saint-Germain was organized and I was there and the first time and I said to myself, I can just introduce myself, you know, okay, I'm Will Gillett and what do you do? I played football, played also for Chelsea. Oh yeah, what did you do for Chelsea then? When did you, yeah, no, it was a coach, he didn't know but can I blame him? No, I don't think so but this is what it is a little bit because they don't know about what the club is all about and I think also your DNA is gone

You have a certain DNA and that is a little bit gone. You had a good DNA also with Wenger, was gone also a little bit. Now you have a new DNA, a new way. And the good thing, what I like, for instance, for Liverpool is that Klopp gave you a DNA. What is Liverpool all about? And they got another coach who did exactly the same. A little bit, slight difference, but...

Technically, almost the same. That's what you need to do. You don't need to get a new coach who does something totally different. You have to build on that same DNA. And that is what I see with a lot of clubs. They lose that. And that's where the fans get upset because they can't recognize it. They say, what the hell is this all about?

Yeah, and that is the most difficult part nowadays. What about if it's not working, though? Do you think... What's not working? Like, if it's not working in terms of the club and the way they're playing, do you then welcome them new kind of DNAs?

Now, the point is that these clubs, you know, with a history, they have a history for a certain reason. They want to play a certain kind of football that people recognise. And that is, for instance, when I came to Chelsea, Chelsea was in those, before that, was not one of the clubs that was for the title, never. Maybe FA Cup final, but never for a title. And all of a sudden...

It started with Glenn Hoddle. You know, you want to play attacking football. You want to play something that people love to see. Then I become a coach and all of a sudden you start to win.

And the managers after that did exactly the same thing. Okay. And that's what the people want because they're used to. And then all of a sudden, if they see something that they don't like, oh, there's riots. Milan, same riots. Chelsea also. People are not happy because they want to see something recognizable that they say, okay, this is it. Here we can win with. And that is nowadays with all these new owners, that is difficult to...

Because maybe they don't understand what the DNA of the club is when they come in. It's not just you buy a franchise and all of a sudden everything works. No, you need a little bit to know about the club. When Bill Scarny bought Milan, he was a fan of Milan. He knew exactly what he wanted. He wanted to play attractive football with a Milan that hasn't won for 14 years and he wanted to get back to the old days.

So, and he, you know, we see what happens. Same with Real Madrid. Everybody knows what it's all about. And they do it already for years. But there's always a business side to the game, Ruud. We're not that naive when we pick that there was a business. But there seemed to be, it was more football than business. Now it seems to be business and then football. Yeah, and I think that that is what the fans irritate. I think the fact that, yeah, I understand that you have to make money. That I understand.

But it doesn't have to be only about money. And that is a little bit the feeling that you get now. And yeah, if this is the right thing, I don't know. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybest. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Huel. Protein shifted in the latter part of my career. We were so carb focused in the early parts of nutrition being introduced at United that it

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Obviously, we played against you in the semi-final, I think, at Villapak. When you were player-manager at Chelsea, how old were you then at that point? 35, 36? 33, 34? So you're so young. Are you the first Dutch manager in the Premier League? Yes. Was there an element of you just being... Obviously, you're talking about people behind your back, scheming, stabbing you in the back. Was that because you were young? No. Would you have spotted it if you were a little bit older? It was all about money. It was all about, hey, all of a sudden...

We could make some transfers here. Oh. Yeah. Talking about that side? I'm talking about that side. And I was always blocking that. That's what I found out later on. So you're talking about basically agents getting into your company? Agents, yeah. They want to get rid of the players there. But I always said, no, I don't need these players. You saw also when I left,

The players all of a sudden came in. What players were you being offered? Oh, a lot of them. A lot of them. He wants names. I'm not going into the details. Just one name. Did you peel off the back of Gary in this game? He did, he did. You had a ball washing. I remember that game. Were you subbing came on? No, no, no.

You start? I started as a right winger. I wasn't playing against you all game. And the funny thing was, I will never forget it because, look, the first year in England for me was fantastic because I was used Italian football. Sweet, bro.

I started as a sweeper. I remember playing as a sweeper. I played long balls, everybody. But I can see if a ball is too long or not. So I was getting the ball on my chest and I played it to my center half. What the hell is this? Yeah.

No, this is not. So Glenn Hoddle came half-time. He says, Rudy, I know what you're trying to do. It's fantastic. But not here, please. Can you go to midfield, please? So he begged me to go to midfield. So therefore, I played a lot of times in midfield. And when I played against May United, I remember that we played really well against you. And we had a shot at goal, I think late in the second half, because we scored a goal. And Cantona saved it from the line.

And I said, Cantona? How come he's there? He's never there. So unbelievable. So can you imagine how things are going? And I said to myself, okay, this was the first year. I had a little bit of a sniff how English football is. And I must say, it was a culture shock for me in the beginning when I came here because...

You go to hotels and you go in training camp and all of a sudden I saw drunken people all over the place. People getting dragged out of the bar. Players or just people? People, people. No, no, no, people. Just people. Because you are in the hotel and there's hotel parties and things like that. And it was like a culture. And I remember in Italy everybody was like neat and everything. You had...

You had your pyjamas. You had your slippers and things like that. So first time I go in training camp with Chelsea and I'm in the hotel and, you know, everybody walks to the room where everybody gets a massage. So I walk there in pyjamas and everything.

And Dennis Wise comes. What the fuck is this? You old? You look like my grandpa. Get the thing out of the place. Okay. Whoop. Out. So I had to adjust a little bit to a different culture. And look, I loved it because I...

I used eight years of not going out of the house, not going to shop because I couldn't. People were all the time chasing you, things like that. So when I came to London, in the beginning I was close to the airport in the hotel and then I got my first car and then I drove to King's Road.

My rims were a little bit hurt by all the curves I made because I had to drive on the other side of the road. I was not used to it. So I drove to Kings Road and I was going out and I was like 15 minutes still as a prey, you know, like...

People chasing me. And then after 50 minutes, nobody was chasing me. I was like, oh, my God, this is fantastic. So I went on the terrace and I sat for two hours watching for the first time other people. Wow. So it was like, for me, it was like getting your freedom back. And sometimes people don't realize what it is because I see people...

wanted to get famous, they have no clue what it is to be famous. They don't know because everybody wants something of you. They're chasing you.

cameras everywhere. Was that Italy especially? Italy, yeah. But Italy, look, Italy gave me a lot. Italy is a fantastic country, beautiful language. Italians love everything that has to do with beauty. So nice watches, nice cars, furniture, clothes, everything, the food, holidays. But they are also very honest about their admiration of things. So they want to touch you.

When you're having food, they just come to your table and say, ah, cool, let's go. The whole family is coming. But can I have my food? No, no, no, I'm a Milan fan. You have to give me an autograph. Come on. Did I annoy you? So this is, you know, an invasion in your privacy. But you get used to it. And in the beginning, of course, you love it. But there comes also moments that you say, oh, I need a little bit of time and space for myself. Yeah.

And the only time and space I had was in the car. Wow. Car from training felt, oh, and then still people were chasing you because when you had toll, you have to pay for the road. And they saw you there, screaming at you. So I owe a lot to Italy. But there was a moment that I just wanted to have a little bit of peace back in my life. Ruud, could you tell us about that Milan team? Because that...

I think that Milan team that you were part of and almost Pep's Barcelona team are almost the two teams that...

they're going to be talked about. Your team is still talked about today. That Pep team of sort of Messi and Iniesta and Xavi is almost like who is the best team of sort of different. But the Saki team that you went to originally with obviously the three Dutchmen there as well, I mean, what was that like? In the beginning, Bill Sconey wanted to have a team that played attractive football. In the beginning, we didn't know what to expect. Nothing else because for us...

Because Marco and I, Marco Fambasa and I, were the first one to come. Frank came the second year. And the first year was, you know, with obstacles. We played, in the beginning we played 4-3-3. Then good game, bad game, good game, bad game. Then Fambasa got injured. And all of a sudden we had to play 4-4-2. And we had to play against Verona, who was always a very difficult opponent for Milan.

And we outplayed them. And from there on, we started. Where did you play? I played as a striker with Virdis together. In the beginning, I played as a right winger. Then I played as a striker. And all of a sudden, it started to grow. And we worked so immense hard on physical condition and on tactical, especially when we didn't have the ball. So how we get the ball back?

Yeah, by pressing. But you could not have a high pressing because otherwise they'd kick it back to the goalkeeper. They couldn't pick it up in his hand. So we had to wait and set a trap. We always kept one side open so they would go to the full backs. Full backs go forward and then we press. Nick the ball of them and then we play. So that was a little bit the setup. But defensively, it was so well done because in training sessions, in the beginning...

We played goalkeeper, four defenders, two midfielders against XI. So I had to play as a right wing. I had to play against Maldini all the time. Couldn't score a goal. Impossible to score a goal. Against those guys. Van Basten was playing also against them. So it was in my team. Couldn't score a goal. Maybe from long distance, maybe. But penetration, impossible. Then we played goalkeeper, four defenders against XI.

couldn't penetrate.

Impossible to penetrate. Who was the four in the back? Now you have Tassotti, Costa Curta, Barreggi and Maldini. And you could not penetrate. It was impossible. What, with 11 v 5? No, you could not get through. You could not go through. Long distance, yes. And what they did very well was that it was like a harmonic movement. So every time when the ball goes back, when you have the ball

as a winger and you can't go past them, you have to go back. But on the moment you go back, they went forward as well. So went forward all the time. Normally, you know you are a striker. If you are a striker, you don't want to go back. They always want to stay.

So therefore, if you go forward and the cross comes, it's always offside. Is that why they're sent to run up to the halfway line? No, not halfway. It was always in between 18 yard box and halfway line. Not so much. A few clips were brazen. Sometimes, yes. People didn't know what to do. Just the off time, right? Sometimes we did, but it depended on the opposition. So therefore, we worked so hard on that. And then we did it also with the midfielders. We played against 11. Then we played...

just to see how you had to move all the time.

And then it stopped if it was not good. So therefore it was eventually like a machine. How often were you doing this and how long for? Almost every day. And how long for in each session? Maybe half an hour. You and Van Basten, Rijkaard, even Donald Dono, amazing players at the highest. Yeah, but you had to do it all the time. Did you buy into this? In the beginning, you are new. You think to yourself, OK...

We had to run so much. I was, you know, I came to the club 89 kilos. I don't know what it is in stones, but 89 kilos. And Maldini was 82 kilos. And I said, oh, my God, this guy is fat. This guy, what is this? So every day had to be measured. I had no fat, only muscles and things like that. I said, oh, my God, this guy, that's impossible, 89 kilos.

Next year, Rijkaard came 90 kilos. And then they said, OK, leave it. These guys are running anyway. But it was a very strict regime and we were very serious. It was a very serious group. And when we, in the first year, we won the championship and that was a fantastic achievement for us because we were kicked out by Espanyol in the UEFA Cup in those days. So we were not, you know, that good, but...

Then we had a very important match. We were one point behind Napoli. We had to play away. So we went with a plane to Napoli, but we had two planes. I said, well, we have two planes. I don't understand. So two planes, we go there, we come in the city. The crowd, the fans saw us and went,

Yeah.

So that we had pain in the stomachs and things like that. So therefore, it was heavily guarded, our food. So they cooked it and the guards took it. Nobody could touch our food. Then the whole night, there was screaming, shouting, fireworks and the whole time, okay. But it was new for me. I've never been in that place. I was like, oh, crazy, crazy people here. Next day, we go with the plane. We go with the bus to the stadium. They were throwing oranges at us.

If you saw the bus, it was ridiculous and following with scooters and shouting at us. And we played a good game there. We won, I think, 3-2. We won that game. Eventually, they applauded us for the way we interpreted the game. But it was also the fact that we were now first. And that was a big turning point to believe in what you're trying to do.

And Van Basten was just coming back from an injury. He was on the bench on that game. So, therefore, it was something that we needed to mold. And what was important, we talk about DNA. Berlusconi came every Friday. Helicopter. Landed on the training pitch and talked with us. But not like a teacher, but also talking about his business, how his business is doing and what...

And all the things he loved, he wanted to feel the team. He was always there. It's interesting. Kasper Speicher was saying the same about the Leicester owner. You know, the owners coming in and being hands-on with the players. Yes. They loved it, embraced it. Yeah, we loved it because he was one of us and, you know, he came in this tracksuit also. He was always relaxed and we loved it.

So therefore, he was a little bit also the inspirator also for this team. And what was important was that Milan in those days was a... Belskony was a new kid in town. All of a sudden, the most important thing. But you have the establishment in Italy. Clubs have been there already for a long time. And all of a sudden, this guy comes. So we were instructed...

Carefully, not say anything. Everything that happens in the locker room stays in the locker room.

say nothing bad about the team, nothing about Coghlan, nothing, because they will use it all the time against us because they don't want us to win. They don't want it. Who is this, like Juventus, Milan? All the establishment, all the clubs. And of course, you know, Napoli with the Maradona, all of a sudden we came. He won it the year before. So we needed to be focused all the time on how we behaved outside of the pitch, on the pitch and everything because anything that could happen, they will use it against us.

So therefore, we were always silent. We didn't say a word, nothing. And so therefore, it was an interesting year. And I think that the good thing was that everybody started to love the way we played in Italy. So everybody was okay with it. And that was lovely. And by the way, everyone was good. Every team was good. Because you could only have in those days the three best players, only three foreigners.

And you had the best players in the world were all playing there. So one mistake was a goal. You knew that. So it was tough.

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Talk to us about Rijkaard and Van Basten. First Rijkaard, because you obviously knew him from young. Yeah, Frank was not there yet. And I remember Frank had made a big mistake. He signed for two clubs at the same time. Frank, you can't do that. Took the time long for you. When we played this first year, we knew we needed something more. One piece of the puzzle was Frank.

especially for Marco and I. And we played with the national team and I know him, I grew up with him. So we went to Saki, Belskony. You have to buy. Yeah, but you know, this guy's crazy. Two contracts at the same time. How can you... Who did he sign with? So who had Frank signed with? I think it was Sporting, Lisbon, and the other one, I don't know yet. It was Sporting or something. So therefore, he, you know, we pushed and pushed and pushed. And when Frank came,

all of a sudden it made it much easier for us. Frank was the last piece of that puzzle that we got and then...

The second year from Boston was fit. Now, he was the main man at the 88th European Championship, so he was on fire. And I played a long, long time with him in an also national team, so I was happy. How good a player was he? Because he's almost like mythical now in terms of his football. The thing is, he was so unbelievably good. He was tall, but he had the pace of somebody who's small.

He was very quick. He was always very small for a long time. And then he grew, but he kept the same pace. So he was always a half a second ahead of everybody. And he was agile. He had an unbelievable technique. He was good with the head, good with his feet, tactically. And he was nasty. He could be nasty as well. So therefore, he had all the ingredients. So for me...

Yeah, he won three Ballon d'Ors. Come on. Or 28. Yes. Yeah, and he was 27 when he had to stop his career because of his ankle. I know.

It was fantastic to play with him. We always remember him for the England game, wasn't it? In the 88. Yes. Tony Adams' kneecaps are still there. He turned him a little bit. He was like... But that is Marco. Marco was... He was so good. It was a shame that he had to stop, but...

Agility-wise, and he was... The thing is also that in Holland, then later on, you had always this comparison with Marco. Every striker has to be that. But he's an exception. You can't be like that. He had everything.

And it was easy with him because blindly I could find him. I knew exactly what he wanted. Did that connection come straight away or was it something that you had to... No, because he was playing for Ajax, I was playing for Feyenoord and later on PSV Eindhoven. But when we were in the national team, yeah, we had that click. I remember we played as youngsters in the national team. I think we were 19, 20 years old or something. And it still was the old establishment.

of the national team and we had to play an away game against Ireland. How was that again? It was with Liam Brady was there. I was watching as a kid. And 2-0 down. That's right. Halftime. And...

They all were screaming, "We have to do this, we have to do that." And I stand up and I said, "No, it's not going to happen. We're going to do it in my way, we're going to do it so, so, so." So you're young, these guys that are 34 years old, played for the Dutch team for a long time. I said, "No, we're not going to do it." I was playing as a defender. I said, "No, I'm going to, as a defender, I'm going forward. I'm going all the time in midfield and then everything." So everybody's like looking. And we did that and we won the game.

3-2. 3-2, we won the game. Buster scored, I scored, whatever. And so that was the new thing in Holland. Everybody said, what the hell is this? So the old generation was like, okay, slowly getting out. And we had a new generation. And it took a while for us to get where we wanted to be. But that was the turning point. And that's where we had the connection, Marco and I.

When I think of playing against Dutch wingers, I think of them as being definitely the best coached wingers that I ever played against in terms of their ability to know how to move into the position, understanding of the position. The Dutch have got an incredible history in terms of designing the game and designing systems. Who do you feel is most relevant in the creation of that position?

No, rather than Johan Cruyff, of course, with the system and with Ajax. Johan was a coach and a player at the same time on the pitch.

His abilities were so unbelievable. You played with him, didn't you, in his last season? Yes, he was 38, I think. And I played with him at Feyenoord. That was, for me, luck that I had that opportunity to play with him. What was he like in that dressing room? He was on a revenge. He was treated badly by Ajax, so came to the enemy, Feyenoord, in order to put things right. And he did, because we won the championship and the cup.

But he was there only for revenge. Can you imagine? He was 38, so it was not easy for him. So he took his time a certain way in training. But there were moments that I said, I want to nick the ball from him. I want to go. You know these players who are not that big, but they are bony, you know? And every time you go... They hurt you. Wily. And he was...

So quick in the first five yards. It was unbelievable. You couldn't get him. Even at 38? You couldn't get him. It was almost impossible. He was so clever. He saw you. So therefore, he was on the pitch all the time, talking, playing.

When he had the ball, he was already, come on, move this. So you learn tactically everything from him. Where did that come from, from him? Where did this sort of mind come from? Because the thing is that I think that he was so ahead of everybody quality-wise. And in those days, it was slower. But he was already on the pace of now. So therefore, it was easy for him. When he had the ball, he had time. Nobody could get him. So therefore, he had time, all the time to point it. And he had his character.

And you know the Dutchies, they think they know everything. They're very confident people. Yes, yes. We think we know everything. So therefore, it was fantastic. And so that year, when I played with him, in the end, we had a trip to Indonesia. And I was... The same elevator, we had to take the elevator to the car. And then we start talking. And then for two hours, we get out of the lift, for two hours, we sat together. And he said to me...

All kinds of things that I could probably, you know, could face during my career. And he said to me, really, you are, you, when the next club you go, you have to make the other players better. And I said, yeah, but I need still time for myself, you know. He said, no, no, no, no.

You have to make sure that you think about the others. It's also to protect yourself in order... You have to coach them all the time. He said, OK. He said, also, if you want to leave the club, you're going to have a lot of bad things because the fans will not be happy that you leave. Everywhere you go, it's going to be...

a bad time for you. He says, my days when I left Ajax for Barcelona, people sent boxes with spiders in there and snakes in there. Just, you know, the craziest thing you're going to have. So he prepared me for that. And he was absolutely right. Wow.

So therefore, he saw something in me that I didn't think I had in me. But I'm really grateful that I had the opportunity to play with him. I want to stay on styles of play, because when you think of Saki and then you think of Cruyff... Yeah, totally different. Completely and utterly different. Yes. Which camp would you be in if you had to pick one in respect to that? I think both, I think, because a guy like Saki also never faced...

Because Saki was more like, he was playing attacking football, but he needed to have, the team was the most important thing. So therefore, Johan was an extra in the team. Also, you needed to have discipline, but discipline the way he wanted to play. Johan was more a player who wanted always 4-3-3, always. And he said, yeah, because you have triangles everywhere.

I said, yeah, but we played 4-4-2 with Milan. That worked also. Yeah, but because of this. No, no, no, no. We played 4-4-2. So Johan would challenge you on the 4-4-2? Yes, of course. But, you know, because we're winning everything, you know, what can you challenge? You know, you can argue. But I'd say, yes, I am raised with 4-3-3. Good. But you can only do it with very good players. How long did it take Pep?

to get what he wanted. I think something like six, seven defenders in order to do what he wanted to do. So therefore, it's a difficult thing. Look at Paris Saint-Germain. All of a sudden, hey, we have something. In Liverpool. So therefore, you need to have the right players in order to do what you do. If you don't,

Then you have difficulty. Look what Pep has now. All of a sudden it doesn't work. So you think 4-4-2 is a more simple system to play than 4-3-3? No, not the most simple. You need also players for that. So you need to play a system that is best for your team. The other thing is we have been raised with 4-3-3. So for us it's easier to adapt to a system like that than 4-4-2. We had to work it out.

You know, in terms of what you're talking about there, we're talking about Saki and Cruyff, and you're talking about 4-4-2 and 4-3-3. But also in Holland, it always felt to me there was almost this sort of fight between Cruyff and Van Gaal, in that it was probably the same system. Yes. Going about it, Van Gaal was almost like... You know how Van Gaal is. Yeah, but I'm saying it's almost that free spirit, a bit more with Cruyff, even if you're playing in his system, get a bit more freedom. Yeah, but I think it happened...

Something happened in Barcelona. Something happened there between them. Personal. And I think that started a little bit. It was a little bit... It was a pity because, of course, you know, Johan is a legend. You don't go into a legend. Van Gaal is a fantastic coach as well. But that didn't help the Dutch way of playing. And I think that...

Van Gaal didn't help the Dutch way of playing. No, both of them. That fight of them didn't help because you had a camp here and a camp there. You didn't need it. There are a lot of similarities, though, in the style. There are similarities, but it's just...

who was the biggest, who was the best and everything. It's not about that. But Johan proved himself also when he was with Barcelona. He proved himself. I sat on the bench in Barcelona in 1994 when Cruyff was the manager. It absolutely destroyed us. And I've never seen football... Have you ever seen football like that played against United? You talk about United thinking everything was rosy. We got absolutely pulverised by that team. Yeah.

Absolutely amazing, yeah. And what was the reason for it, do you think? I just remember the wingers being stuck on the touchline. Yeah.

as high and wide as possible, single striker, and just to be in that space. I've never seen anything like it. They made the pitch wider than everywhere else. If you play in England, they make it as small as possible. In the corners, it's high grass. But Van Gaal, in 98, when Van Gaal was the man, he was exactly the same. Two wide players, exactly on the highest point and wide. And that's what Dutch wingers always did, I felt, or players that were

Yes, but the fourth is... Fogal played a little bit different with Ajax because he had... So nowadays it's all fullbacks also go forward, but he had Danny Blind who went into midfield and then the three fullbacks went centre-back. So they played three, four, three a little bit and then they go back again to four. But...

It's not four because eventually the wingers have to go back also in defence. So therefore, it is all how you interpret it and what you can do with the players. And yeah, they're both great coaches. But Johan, of course, stands above everything. He's there.

And the rest is just underneath. You know when you watch wide players and forward players now, because I've seen clips of you, three players around you, and you just dribble and do... Do you think they play with a bit more fear nowadays? I don't think it's fear. I think that nowadays the wingers have become fullbacks. They're all fast. They can run. They can do something. So I think nowadays it's not easy to go past players. I still think...

That is important for a winger that on the moment he gets the ball and he has a little bit of room, he needs to go on you. You know how difficult that is. But most of the time they go sideways. That's what you want. But, Ruud, that's been my most frustrating thing in the last probably I would say maybe even two years now, watching wide players get the ball and not directly go on him. You have to go on him. Is their right footers now playing on the left? Yeah, but it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You just go straight at him. You have to go straight. You have to get him on his heels. Yeah.

Get him on his heels and then you can go left or right. But if you go sideways, that's exactly what you want.

And that is the thing that you... I saw last time also Rashford played for the national team. He did it. He went straight for it. And what happens is, is because this fullback goes backwards, that gives you room to see, hey, is there somebody there in the middle? You can still pass it. You don't have to go past him. You can go in front of him. You can pass it. And you guys, you know, the strikers are waiting for that moment.

But now you know if he's a right footed on the left, he goes inside, he must have a shot at goal. So as a striker, you think to yourself, OK, what? That's it. That is frustrated for a striker. Not easy. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybet. When you left Milan, you went to Sampdoria and you worked under Sven. It was fantastic. Sven is such a nice guy. You want to work for him.

you know it was fantastic I used 4-4-2 as well it was yeah I played with Mancini up front I think the most underrated player that I've played with because he was fantastic such a fantastic player so therefore it was easy and I remember in that year I played again as a striker because with Milan I played as a right winger a lot

I had to, I did training every day after the normal training session. I went training as a striker. Get the ball, one touch, shot. One touch, shot. You know, you don't get time. So in all kinds of situations, with a defender, get the ball and try to get one touch only and to hit it. And then I noticed one thing and I said to myself, you don't need to hit it hard. You just have to place it. Thank you. Place it.

Plays it left, right, and all of a sudden I had the heck of it. And then all of a sudden I scored a lot of goals. Easy goals. That's easy. It comes down to the touch and the composure to just want to hit the target and do the basics right. Yes. But that is something. I'm not a natural striker. I'm a defender. So as a defender, first when I played for Haarlem, then all of a sudden the second year I had to play as a striker.

I said, OK, how do I do it? The only thing I know is what a defender wants me to do. So I can anticipate on that. Then I became a midfielder with the national team, right winger as a national team, then as a defender again. What was your favourite position when you look back in your career? It depends on... When you have the experience of playing on a high level...

And midfield is easy. Midfield, because you see it. I had players from Chelsea, when I played in midfield, they come to me. I remember Peacock. Kevin Peacock. He came to me, he says, Buddy, you're always free. How is that possible? I cannot explain it. It's a long story. So therefore, it was easier for me in midfield because then, yeah, I had that experience. When I was young, I wanted to be a defender, a

I don't know if I was a good defender. I was an attacking defender because when I went... First I played for Feyenoord right winger for a long time. Then I went to PSV Eindhoven. I was a defender again.

scoring 15 goals as a defender. Then the last 10 games, they say, ah, Rudy, our key player is a striker because we're struggling. Is that okay? Did you mind changing all the time? No, look, I didn't mind all the time, but there were moments that I said, look, I want to specialise myself. I want to... And I never had the chance. I always had to adapt myself to the situation. It was always... I gave the coach also the easy way of to say, oh...

I can put Rudy always on that side or I can put Rudy there. And that sometimes irritated me. I don't think any other country would move you. And lots of players in Holland, by the way, end up playing in different positions. But they change you sometimes. What they do is that they want to get you out of your comfort zone.

in order to understand what is needed. And sometimes that is good. So if you are at a good team, they will put you maybe with older guys. When you're young, you play with older guys. Try to see how you cope with that.

and play a different position, but not all the time. But maybe, you know, left back, they're going to play, OK, play a little bit of left winger. Let's see how you do there in order just to have the experience. Yeah, that can happen. When you won the Ballon d'Or, what position were you playing? I was, it was half season of PZ Eindhoven as a striker. And then, yeah, Milan also half striker, half right winger.

So that was, yeah, I could play so many different positions, but it was not always, I remember we played the European Championship against, was in 1990, was in Sweden. And we had to play against Germany and Germany.

The German left back. The first thing he did when they had the ball, just go forward. And I had to follow him. So I was playing more right back than I was forward. And then later on they told me, oh, we were so happy that you played on the right side because we wanted you to have as far as possible from our goal.

I said, yes. But I had to do it. I did it. I did it for the team. But I was not happy. But in 94, you just said that you weren't happy. Did you leave the squad before the tournament? Yes. Because they asked you to play right wing? No. The thing was, I had...

Spoken to dig out for card. It was also my mistake a little bit. I was a little bit stubborn there. And he got to Milan and we talked about the way how we wanted to play. And we had to play in America. And in America, it's very, very hot. You can't play 4-3-3 pressing all the time. It's impossible. So therefore, he said, yeah, yeah, we're going to play in this way. I said, OK, it's good. That's fine. And I was fit. I was in my best days. And all of a sudden, the first game...

That's not what we talk about. Was it in the tournament? No, no, no. Before the tournament. And then, look, I was a little bit, it was an emotional decision. I didn't need to do that. I think I made a mistake. Later on also, I think I forgot, my mistake was not to go to him, not to go to his house and talk with him about it.

You played in this position before quite a few times. Yeah, but I knew that this is not the way how you can win it. And during the tournament, we played so badly in the beginning and then he changed it to 4-for-2 again. So you wanted to play as one of the two strikers? Of course, because you needed to wait a little bit. It's so hot. You can't play pressing all over the pitch. It was unbelievable. Everybody was cooking in America.

So therefore, but it was, I think, stupid of me, yeah, to do that. Did you get a lot of criticism at the time? Yes, of course. Yeah, yeah. But I took it. I took it. It happened quite a few times in tournaments where, with Holland, that quite a few, sometimes you'd have big faults. You were in 96, I think. Yes, we had in the World Cup in Italy. We had it also.

There was a little bit of a jealousy of the players that thought, you know, also they had won it as well. But we had to play still Champions League against Benfica.

And all of a sudden other players started to talk and be loud. What, the players that... Yeah, the other players. Against you. No, no. Against Milan players because you were having success as a club. Yes, yes. And the attention was all on us. So it was like, it was a horrible atmosphere in the training camp. Horrible. Who was creating that, Ruud, at the time? Between the Milan players, which is you, Frank and Markova. The point was this. Um...

There was another coach there. And we knew, the most important players knew, that we had to have somebody in front of the group who was big enough to put us in our place. And so we voted for Johan Cruyff. Some players didn't like it, but we wanted Johan. Then...

Eventually they came with somebody else. And why? Because Rins Michels was the coach of us in 88. He didn't want to have somebody as successful as we won the World Cup. So he was against it. So he did everything not Joanne to get there. And we were furious. So you come then with a coach that...

You didn't want. And then you come in the tournament and the coach says, yeah, this is not my team. Who's the coach in 19? Ben Hacker. Ben Hacker, yeah. This is not my team, but we have to go on with it. So if you start like that, this is not my team. Okay. I don't blame him so much for what happened, but it was chaos. And so therefore, I remember before the last game in the group stage, we had to play Ireland again.

And from Boston and I wanted to leave, we said. So we went to...

to the coach. What an awkward you are. Yeah, but at least you know what you get, you know? Exactly. You show your feeling. Exactly. So we were there with, we had a mental coach also with him in those days. It was Mr. Ted Troost. He died. He had his work cut out. So therefore, he was a mediator and we were saying, both of us, and we wanted Frank Rackert also to be there and he said, no, no, leave him, it's okay.

So therefore, we said it. We said, look, if this goes on, we're going. This is not hazardous. So we had at least the opportunity to speak ourselves out, what I had to do also before that, okay, with Beinacker, but later on. At least we had all our griefs out, what was horrible.

And so therefore, he said, okay, we stay. Okay. And then we played our best games. Scored against the islands also.

We both went through, Eiland and us, and we played our best game against Germany. We are all over them. And then Frank spit on Phil. And I said, what the hell is this? So all of a sudden that fell apart. But we played really, really well against Germany. We needed to score two goals, but we didn't.

When I look back now and I think of the England teams that we played in, we were always deemed to have big characters around that time. But when I think of... None of them would really have done, I don't think, what you're talking about, the Dutch team. But you need to do that. I know, I'm just saying. I'm looking at you and the men. Do you think that he would take... No, he... He would do the same thing? He did. He did.

No, but when you think about characters that are willing... When you talk about characters that are willing to question managers, I mean, like you say, the Dutch players, that comes... You mentioned before about Johan Cruyff being a manager, a player who was like a manager on the pitch. A lot of Dutch players, and even the ones we played with, that mentality is that tactically...

They feel superior to the rest of the... No, no, no, no. They feel that they have to talk about it. You need to explain it to me. So this is a little bit of our mentality. We want you to think about football. We want that. Nowadays, it's also gone, because they don't talk anymore. They get you a pass four yards over your face and they go...

Good pass. No, no. No, it's not a good pass. So therefore, no, no. It's all thumbs up, thumbs up. But you need to have strong characters. And the thing is, I remember the first time I came to Milan, I did the same thing. I was on the pitch. I said, coach, without this and that. Came to me, says, Rudy,

if you want to talk with me, come in my room, come in my office. And then all of a sudden you realize, like, okay, this is different. Different, you know, different environment, different mentality. Okay, don't do that. So when you have something, go to his office. Talk about it. Did you question Saki then? Would you go to his office? No, you go, yeah, you go and question about certain things. Of course, because you want to think, you want to know. Look, when the coach...

is on the sideline. He has nothing to say. There's so much noise here. So you need players on the pitch who then change the game for you when they recognize the situation. I don't need players who don't say anything and look at the sideline. What do we have to do? No.

You need players who this was one of them. That's what makes the difference. You and your team also with Arsenal, you had players there in midfield. Oh my God, Petit, they went there. They talk with you. And that is what you need. And it's not the coach. Sorry. It's not the coach who makes the difference. It's the players who make the difference. Do you

Do you think the coach gives them players the power, though? Because we had Serena Wiegman. Obviously, she's still England manager. And without her, we wouldn't have won the Euros. But that's what I'm saying. So direct, so honest. That was one of the things that she brought into our culture. You have to be honest with each other. We have no filters. Sometimes we need to, but we have no filters. We say immediately what is on our mind. We think, OK, this is it.

And I don't agree with it. But at least you know. And we can talk about it. It's not that we want to fight. No, when there is something there, you know, you take these two and you're going to talk with each other. And I remember also with Milan, we had also psychologists walking around there. If there was little issues, we took them immediately. What's going on here? Yeah.

Okay, get it out of the team. Smart, isn't it? Yes, but because you need it. You can't wait till something happens. You mentioned physicality before, and we had a presentation in 95, 96, so around the time that Arsene Wenger came in, and it was around the Milan lab. And we used this mythical thing, the Milan lab, of what were... I don't know.

Because you remember it exists. But you remember it though, don't you? I went there, we were after that. Yeah. Because it was all after. And they said also, I wish we had it already then, that we could compare the data where we have now. This was all new. And I have done some things of that Milan lab, and it was all things that had to do with strength. You get a belt, and the belt was then attached to...

And then you had to watch on the wall. There was popping up something and then you had to jump as quick as possible. So it was reactions. Reactions. Then you had a thing that was a screen in front of you. You had glasses on and you have to follow the lines, red lines, who goes from left to right, then from right to left. So they were just measuring if you could concentrate you for how long you could, if you were tired. So they could measure that.

So they had all these little things, so therefore they checked. And I was there after my career when Ancelotti was coach. And I said, so they could measure already if you were tired, yes or no. And I said, he plays Sunday against Juventus and Maldini is very tired on that test. Is he playing? Of course he's playing. LAUGHTER

That's so true. And that is the thing. I remember also talking with Pep. I said, Pep, with all the data you have. I said, really? I get crazy with all the data.

Before I do a training, there's 15 guys who tells me that I can't do this, I can't do that, I can't do this. After a while, I said, no, who's controlling the training now, me or you guys with data? So eventually, you know, you have to be strict and say, look, till there, and that's it. And you know what the worst thing also with data is?

for me, is that if you tell a player he's tired, he's tired. He's tired. And I want to see in training if he can get a little bit more. So if he does a little bit more, then also during the games it will be easier for him. But nowadays they get him out already. And I say, no, I want to see character-wise what you are able to do when you're tired. Ruud, can I ask you about, it must have been the only time I was on a pitch with you,

You were player manager of Chelsea. Yes. If you remember this game at Anfield. I think we lost. Yeah, you lost. Yeah? That's why he brought it up. No, but you had a defender. I think his name was Bernard Lambert. He got sent off in the first half. And you were player manager, but you were a sub. And I always remember you just got straight off the bench and just took your tracksuit top off. I don't even remember that anymore. And you went on centre-back. And...

I mean, I think it might have been the game where Patrick Berger got a hat-trick. I think it might have been that game. While I was a centre-back. Yeah, but you came on at centre-back. Your team, I think, had 10 and you just ran the game. And I was like, I was only 19. I was in centre-midfield with Paul Ince and...

The Premier League's got great players. That's why he ran the game. No, but it was like, Ruud Gullit's like, I mean, the Premier League's got amazing players, but then Ruud Gullit's like one of the best players. Just one of those players that you look at and it just does. You're coming onto a game, you're obviously mid-30s, you haven't warmed up, you've just took your tracksuit top off and went on. And then we're in.

And it was just like, oh, my God, the levels. Did he put a show on? When you're a young player coming through and you want to achieve, and you're just looking at certain things that you can never get out of your head, that was like being like you're playing with your mates. There was no warm-up. You went straight on. You had 10 men. And I just remember you just pinging the ball all over the place. And I'm just like an 18-19-year-old kid. The thing is you don't realize that's so much about yourself. You just try to...

to help, trying to do things. So therefore it is, you know, I loved when I was playing in England, I loved it immediately. I must say in those days it was easier to play in a now because in those days England was trying to find more, to get close to the European level. So therefore they wanted European players to come to England to play. First Cantona and, what is it,

Zola Bergkamp? No, no, no, Bergkamp. That was in the same time as me. Klinsmann was before us. So therefore, there was a lot of players all the time coming. So it was easy. I remember, I played against Wimbledon and I knew Vinnie wanted to make headlines with me. I knew, I saw him. So eventually, I go back, I'm with my back against him, I have to get the ball in the corner and he comes, I hear him.

Slide tackles me and everything. And I just jump up a little bit.

So he gets me, but not bad. Not bad. He wrote it. So he gets a red card and I said, now we're going to play football, okay? So funny thing, we became friends later on because I was at LA Galaxy and he was an actor there. Yes. So I was a lot of times with him. He's a very good guy. So therefore, and then he would say, you, you were screaming like a little piggy. You got me, you know, and I said, yes, this is what it is, you know.

This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybest. You went up to Newcastle. Yes. How was that? I love Newcastle. I was hired there to play the same way as Chelsea, in the same style. But it was difficult. That was really difficult. But I enjoyed it. Eventually we got to the

Final with you guys. Yeah. And you know what the worst thing is? In my perception, we played really, really well against you guys. Do you think so, Ruud? But, yes, you have to think about your possibilities and what you have. The only thing is that you had five players who could score a goal. The perception, I've watched you so many times. The perception that you give me all the time, that I can get you, all the time, that I can get you,

But then all of a sudden, there's always somebody who makes an unbelievable goal. And that was so special. So therefore, it almost was like you sucked me in, like, okay, have a little bit more courage. And then, bam.

And you had such great players up front. So therefore also you scored two goals. And I saw the game later on on ESPN Classics somewhere 10 years ago. And I was looking at it and I said, we're playing well. We really do. The only thing is creating opportunities was difficult, of course. But playing was not that bad. And I remember your reaction was the same. I said to Smigel the same thing. He said, no.

Well, for me, it was OK. It was an easy game. But if I look at the way we played, we played OK. When you went to Newcastle, was Shearer kind of coming to the end of his career? Yes. Because did you leave him out of a derby game? Yes, I left him out, yes. Later on, I had to laugh. Gary Liddicoe tried in a show also to defend him when I was with him.

And Alan. And he said, after a while, yeah, you left him out, yes. I said, yeah, but I was not the only one. I think that Bobby Robson tried to sell him as well, eh?

Alan said, don't go there, please. Stop there. So then there was another one. He tried it again with me. And also about a player that was, you know, was an older player and everything. And so what you would do in a situation like that? I would put him on a bench. So Alan was, you know, Alan and I became friends after that. Yeah. And it was funny because I think that Alan wanted to protect himself. And I think that Alan was...

get the wrong information of what I wanted because I wanted him. The only thing is, I don't know if he had the same thing with me. I don't know. I think he was very loyal also to Kenny Dorklish, who was coach there. Yeah, yeah. So therefore, it was not easy. And yeah, and of course, the lesser players are close to him because he has so much power.

But these lesser players didn't need to play. But, you know, if you stick to him, then you have a chance to play. So therefore, I had this battle about how I have to do this. And eventually, I couldn't win this battle. I didn't want to have a battle, but I wanted to do the same thing. I found it already a miracle that we came to the final already.

And for me, one of the key players that I was speed. What a player he was. He was a midfielder going forward. And I said to him, no, you're not going to do that again. You're going to be a holy midfielder. You have the technique, ability, passing, everything, intelligence. And he played like this for me. Oh, he was fantastic. All of a sudden, because of him, started...

how he wanted to play. And then eventually I saw that it was not working and I went to the board and I said, look, it's not working. I'm not going to get the chance to change it. So what was it? Was it his style of play? I mean, listen, in England in the Premier League No, no, no. I needed him but I needed him also in different ways. I will give you an example. I played with, I was coach of Chelsea. Sparky, Mark Hughes. Mark Hughes. I said to him,

You're now 34. Width of the 18-yard box, that is your territory. I don't want you to go outside. I don't want you to chase people. I want you to stay only in the 18-yard box. That's your territory. Oh, yeah, but I'm used to running. No, that was when you were 26. Now you're 34. I need you to be just there in that area in order. And I want you to save your energy. When we did training and we did running, the others had to do 10. After five, you go inside, have a massage.

Okay? Because you get older, you have your experience. And Mark thanked me. In the end of his career, he could win a trophy and also be important for us because I had also an argument with Viali because Mark Hughes was playing better than Viali. And I had to be honest. And even when Viali was a friend of mine, but I had to be honest. So I put Mark Hughes there with Zola.

It was not bad. So therefore, you get always these little arguments. If you want to play in a way that is the best for the team. And I think that I needed Alan. But in a way he was playing, not so much. Because I didn't have the players to do what he wanted. Who did you play up front in that game? I had Ferguson also up front, but I don't know. I don't think you played... No, Duncan was not there. It was the second year.

I don't know anymore. I don't know. Was it the game? Obviously, leaving Alan Shearer out is massive. Yes. For an England manager, it was the same. It was at Sunderland, though. It was against Sunderland as well. 1-0 up, and then it was raining like hell and everything. And then one moment they had a big pass up front, went in the pond, everybody went past it, and then the guy just chipped it out over the goalkeeper. So therefore, then you feel, OK, and I...

I think, no, no, this is maybe not for me. Did you know you were in trouble at that point? No, not trouble. I just said to them, I went to the board, I said, look, I don't think this is for me. I don't think, and they begged me to stay. They begged me to stay. Who was this at the time? Was it Kenneth Shepard? Shepard, yes. Freddie Shepard, sorry. Freddie, yeah. And we became friends also because of that. Because I said to him, look, I don't need the money. I just want to end the contract. I said, I'm...

very thankful for what I have, what I could do. But this is not for me. This is not the way, the club way you can do it. What was making you say that? Because I knew that I could not change, could not change the environment on that moment. Players-wise, the way of playing, I could not change that. So therefore, I was right because later on they're relegated. I knew exactly what was going on, but I had not the power to change that.

Couldn't you keep them the same? Because Shearer scored five goals in a game. He's still blasting. I know, but he was not doing at that moment the things that we needed to do in order to play. And I think he understood that as well. We became friends after that. And I remember, because we were trying to protect our way of playing. And also, I don't blame him for that. Never, never did. And later on, we were in...

in Brazil and we were in a hotel on top of the hotel and we were laughing together drinking to beers and everything and his wife comes to us and says I can't believe this

you were the biggest enemy in our house and now you are sitting together laughing and being together. What is this? And I said, yeah, this is what it is. This is life. But maybe that honesty then made respect. Oh, yes, yes. Yeah, because Alan is a great striker. I needed him to do a little bit different in order to make it work. But I think he was, yeah...

He was not informed well of the intensity that I had from the beginning. And I think that that was a little bit of like, maybe also my fault, because maybe I had to talk with him more and tell him what I really needed. But yeah, it was, yeah, there were too many players involved

that, you know, stuck to him but were not good enough. Not to play the game that you needed to play in order to make that step. Very, very tough for you to do that at Newcastle. Very difficult. Yeah. It is Newcastle. Yeah. But the biggest problem that you also had was not everybody wants to go there. You have to really get with a good plan in order to go there. And I think that the biggest success they had when Keegan was coach there, they had the best team they had, didn't win it,

But I think that... But now that I won a trophy, I'm so happy for them. And there's a bigger club down the road than Sunderland. Yes! Roy! Yes, Roy! Yes! This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybest. Ru, can I ask you how important... Because you obviously won the Ballon d'Or, you were the best player in the world in the late 80s, and I got to know you doing a little bit of TV, and I can't believe how humble you are and sort of...

sort of normal guy because you know you don't meet Messi or Maradona at all you were at that level I mean how important is that you think as being seen as the best player in the world but also being humble and having that humility I think it comes also from your background I remember like I said I went to Chelsea just because I wanted my life back after a while in 2000 I was fed up with the whole image so cut my hair off everything I wanted to be you know just swallowing up in the crowd and

Just wanted to be like everybody else. I just wanted to enjoy my life. So the first year was fantastic when I cut it off because nobody recognized me. After a while, people, you know, people then know who you are. But I just like life. I like people. I like to, you know, to enjoy the things of life. I'm very positive in my way of how I see things, even though things are not going always your way. But, you know, the thing is that I...

I've been on the mountain and, you know, that mountain is lonely. And the first thing you need to learn when you are on the mountain is to say no. Because everybody wants something of you. Everybody's nice to you. Everything is possible. But you have to learn how to say no. No, I'm not going to do that because I want to stay home. And you want to be with your family and you want to, you are a professional. That's the most difficult part.

And I see people, I've met a lot of people in my life, and the most nicest people are the people that just love the things that they want to do. They don't want to be famous. It comes with the territory. They don't like it. They don't want it. They just, you know, because they're good in what they do. The ones who want to become famous are the nastiest people.

I've ever seen in my life. A story from my life. I can't help it. Because they think that, you know, that they are somebody, something special, but they aren't. So therefore, in life, for me, I've been on that mountain. I had to laugh when I was coached at LA Galaxy. And I said to David Beckham was there. I said, David, I don't want to trade with you. I've been there, done that. I said, I can't live like that. How can you do that? And he says, yeah, I can.

I said, can't you just go with your own car, you know, just on the highway? He said, no, really, you can't. Because people are chasing me all the time. People want bad things. They don't want nice things out of your life. So therefore he needed to have all these people around him to protect him. It's horrible. I find it horrible for myself how I live. But he can't go anywhere else. And I really must say I admired him how he handled it.

Because he loves football. He was very, very, very fond of going to the training ground, working hard, and still have that other life around it. It was amazing to see. So therefore, I would not want to change my life with him because it's so intense all the time, every day. Everything you say, do, whatever, photograph,

But I admire the way he handles it. Ruud, can I ask you about the locks? Because when we were young, the locks and having locks was, it was something like a taboo. You couldn't have it. You couldn't have it in England? Couldn't have it. No one could have it. So when everybody saw you in 88 and you scored, remember the goal you scored and the locks flew forward? They used to have it when I'd go to the youth club. Do you realise how impressionable that was in respect to... I don't know. When you were cutting it off, how did it feel when you cut it off?

It was a relief for me because it was like people recognize you on your hair. They recognize you. I see sometimes people from the old days, they still have the same haircut. You know, like it's me, you know. And I didn't want that. I wanted to cut it off. So therefore, I was like, it was a relief for me that people don't recognize you all the time about your hair. And of course, when you started it, it was, I remember I was just watching TV

Noah, the tennis player. Yes. I liked it. Yannick. Yeah, Yannick. But his hair was fake, eh? Yes, it wasn't. It was not even real. Because that's what everyone was thinking, that guy's hair ain't real. We was all saying it. Yeah, yeah, it was fake. But nevertheless, it was like, oh, I like, you know. And I was into reggae music. So I was just, you know.

my hair all the time at home, all the time. Did you get any pushback from people saying you can't have your hair? No, no, no. Why could you have your hair like that in England, right? I don't know. It was something that all the guys when they were young and when they used to go for trials they used to say they didn't let me get through the trial because I had dreads, I had locks and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They don't take you serious. They don't take you seriously. Yes. That's something that used to happen. I can understand that, yeah, that

There were some guys who used to be locked up their hair. Even someone like Jazzy B. You speak to Jazzy B. I love Jazzy. He used to shave this part of his head, but this was locked up so he could put a hat on so his mum and dad wouldn't see him. In those days, I didn't mind so much what people were saying anyway. Let your feet do the thing and all the other things. It felt like we was watching Bob Marley playing football. Yeah, but the thing is, just because of the reggae music and everything, I loved it and I was just...

eventually I got the locks and yeah it was do you wash it yes of course I wash it of course you wash it I had to mention the locks because it's massive yeah yeah yeah my first pair of football boots was Edgar Davids one and I used to take my hair out and put my sunglasses on running around the bat lanes of Sunderland I wanted to

Yeah, and Seydor said it also to me. You were also, like I was an inspiration for them. So he does it. He can do it as well. You don't realize that so much. You only hear that later on. Exactly. But yeah, I was fearless. I was not afraid to go anywhere or to play my football. I just enjoyed it to be on the pitch and all the other things was just, you know, come to the territory. But you have to learn.

And, you know, and to read people because everybody has a story. Everybody has something. There's all sharks around you everywhere. And that is something that you have to learn. Jaws, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sharks around you all the time. And people come with nice stories. Yeah, if you come here, if you do that, blah, blah. You know, no, no, no, no, no. It's not like that. So you have to.

You have to learn how, you know, and I think that the bad things helped you more than the good things. I think the bad things in life makes you wonder, okay, it's not always like that. So you have to put your shoulders on it and then you have to come out of it and work yourself back into whatever it is. And so therefore, I love the bad moments in my life. I cherish the bad things in my life, yes.

Ruud, that's a great place to finish. Thank you so much for coming on. You're welcome. Ruud Hulley, thank you.

There was a statement made this morning in the meeting we had before that you were the best player that we've ever had on Stick to Football. Thank you very much. Thank you. Have you seen... Do you agree with that? He's the most used midfielder. He's the most used midfielder. Rude, Rude, you have to sit down. He's the most used midfielder on the game. I thought you would have gone... Rude, you have to sit down a little bit, just for a picture. Oh, sorry. Just for a picture. Your hero. Oh.

- You're welcome, thank you guys. Good luck, everybody show, eh? - Thank you. - Nice. - Good, huh? - Yeah, yeah, it's good bullshit. It's good bullshit.

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