Sol Campbell: Spurs Revelations, Arsenal Invincibles & England Career | Stick to Football EP 75
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You're in early again. You keep coming in early. Where do you want me to go? In the car park? Oh, yeah. Do you not want a little one-to-one with me? A little chat? Where's my phone gone? There it is. Don't mind your teeth. Is that El Grey there, Roy? Yeah, do you want some? No, I don't want El Grey. I didn't get to hug you, bro. Are you OK? Yeah, are you? Do you know what? I kind of missed my... What did you miss? What's on this morning? Well, I... Nothing to do with me, Roy. I said... No, it's OK. You didn't play with Salt at Arsenal? No, I played with England. England, obviously. Really?

So I came after him. You know, I tried to sign him. I met him for talks as a manager to bring him to Ipswich. Oh, we need to get that in. I didn't know that. Jill, have you gone green? Because it's been St Patrick's Day in the last couple of days. You're going... You're that big in this one. I'm so hot and warm. Me and Nance, honestly, we get there, because you have to book the table, because obviously the pub's absolutely packed, the cow, and we'll do... Oh, sh...

We'll do a few there, bro. I do like it, Guinness. Because we was there from day... It was an unbelievable day. You're going for it, right? Every now and then, Bex pops in as well. Bex will pop in there. Oh, that's cool. Honestly, but it's a nice atmosphere because sometimes they get a fiddler in. A fiddler. I don't know if they're going to do the fiddler this year. Who's the fiddler? Oh. She's on the roof, isn't she? That was it. It was something else then. I know, was it, yeah? Stop it. Hey, come on. I'm not sure about them mini rolls with raspberry in them.

They're the best ones. Do you think? Absolutely the best ones. Did Sald score an equaliser or a winner again? Yeah. Was it a winner or an equaliser? He was playing midfield from that day. He ran off the back of you, didn't he? It was a set-piece, wasn't it? It was a set-piece. You sent off that day. No, that was a different day. Oh, no, he scored ahead of that day, but he also scored a goal at Christmastime when... Do you know what? Prunier played with me and he came from midfield. Sald did? Yeah, I'm sure. We'll ask him when he comes in. Will he still remember?

It's a cool name, Sol, isn't it? It's a lovely name. Yeah, but you need to ask him his full name. Solzia. That would be a good name, Sol, because it's staging my life. I think Solzia's cool.

Here he is. You're not bothered? Good to see you, boss. Looks very smart. Very smart. Always smart. How are you doing? We're good. So we were just talking about... I can remember two goals you scored against United, you might have scored more, but one was a header to equalise late on, 2-2, do you remember? He does remember, see?

And the other one, you played in midfield against us at Christmas, at Christmas, like New Year's Day or Christmas time. Bolly, bottom corner. There you go. You didn't run off the back of me, did you? Was I playing? Did you run off the back of me? You were playing, right, I think. Was Roy playing in that game? Yes. Did Tottenham win, did they 3-1? Yeah. I didn't play then. Definitely not. How old was you then, Sol? How old was you then? Eighteen.

19, no you were older than that. 18, 19, well following year, 19 yeah. How old are you now? 50. Yeah I'm 50 but you couldn't have been 19. No I said yeah, yeah I was. When Prunier played, when was that? Me and Prunier centre half. Four. You can't be no more than 20 though. That's a handy double. Can't be no more than 20. Centre half for Prunier.

who's puny I don't know I can't remember Eric's buddy we had no centre halfs fit so I was already playing centre half were you T for me or what T or Earl Grey I'm not Earl Grey you can have some of mine do you like Earl Grey

My PG tips. Oh, you won't like that. No, you won't. No, he'll like it. He's got an educated palate. Sorry, Sal. Was that honey? Yeah. I'll have some of that. Want some milk? No, no, no. Earl Grey tea is so horrible. Thank you. Earl Grey tea. Have you tried it? It's an acquired taste, Jill. I think it's when you get a little bit older. Do you think? LAUGHTER Nice. You put your slippers on and have an Earl Grey. You get to Tottenham, you join full-time,

I'm not getting there yet, don't worry. It's coming, don't worry. Tottenham says, right, we're putting out funding, we're not paying for anything anymore with the lawyers. He knows if he puts his leg out in the penalty area, he's giving me an opportunity. I pulled it back. You pulled your leg back? Well, you put it out to start. Well, once that happened, I said, that's it, I've got time for that.

You don't do that to me. If you're playing football and you have to kind of elevate yourself every week and you've got no help on the pitch, you're going nowhere. They're strong words for your teammates. Well, if you look at the team I left to the team I went to, it's a different universe. Have you ever spoken in detail about this before? I said it in my book. No-one said anything. But no-one bought your book. They might buy it now. So you started off as a striker, didn't you? Um...

What, first team or just generally? Generally, when you were young, 13, 14. 13, 14, I was midfield. Was you? Yeah, I was midfield. What kind of midfield? Eight, six now, ten? I was a winger. I was a winger. A winger? Yeah, yeah. On the right side of the midfield, yeah. You'll be brainwashed. Did you like playing there? Yeah, I loved it. Scored lots of goals. Quick, up and down.

I know a lot of players start up top and then go back, but is it a journey from a right wing to a centre-half? Yeah, but from there, I had a couple of cycles of when I first started playing, when I was in school, I was playing midfield and my district was sweeper. Back in the day, sweeper. I was a centre-half and then up front. I did that cycle about two, three times. That's good in a way, isn't it? To try different positions. Yeah, up to about 20. Yeah.

That was it. When did the centre-half come about where you went, bam, they're putting you centre? Who put you centre-half? Did you go full-back first? No, no, centre-half. It was Ted Powell. England. England were 18? Yeah, yeah. And then... Was someone injured? No, no, just wanted to try it out. And then Keith Walden, just with Spurs, he put me there as well with Paul Mahon. And I kind of stayed there for him. How did you take it, going from being...

Why play at the centre-back? For me, I just, I said, like, it's another development, playing football. You're in the team, you know, that's what it's all about, developing as a player. It was controversial at the time, my career, to be fair. So, Tolles talking about Ted Powell played him as a centre-back with England. So, it was me and Chris Casper were centre-backs for England under-18s. We had European Championships coming up in England, believe it or not. We won it.

and all of a sudden Ted Powell said to me he was the first person to ever put me at right back he said I want you to play right back and I went no I'm a centre back he went no you're right back and Sol went in at centre back alongside Casp Chris Casper and we won that tournament and that's the first time I ever played right back out yeah a lot changed

Yeah, but you said that, Gary, but was he just, jokes aside, would he be just thinking Sol's a better centre-half than you? Well, I don't think Sol had played centre-half before that, so he was a bit of a shock to all of us, because you were playing central midfield. So Tottenham's youth team, we played Tottenham in the 92 Youth Cup run, and Sol was midfield. Midfield and up front. Yeah. Did he fit the bill of a centre-half though better? Obviously, the size difference. I know. Look at Oli and say, he's got the perfect physique to play centre-back, and you're...

Probably got the right physique for the full-back. I get it, but at the time... It was out of the blue. It was, it was out of the blue completely. Did you understand the position? How did you get on? In all the build-up games, I'd played centre-back. You'd never played centre-back in the build-up games. And I was always centre-back. So it was a big shock. You couldn't get to the tournament. All of a sudden, the pre-match build-up to the tournament, you're like, he pulls Sol back and then puts me forward. That was a team that had Robbie Fowler in there, obviously, Butty.

Scolzi Kevin Gallagher Kevin Gallagher Julian Joachim Kevin Sharp Kevin Sharp Tinkler Tinkler from Leeds they were Leeds lads there was a few others though I think Kasky Kasky yeah Darren Kasky Darren Kasky from Spurs as well obviously I think went to QPR did he in the end or did he go to QPR where was him did you play one in Forest yeah the finals the finals of Forest I remember a picture of him somewhere yeah it was 30,000 on it was the first time Sky actually was following the teams it was the first time

What, you got 30,000 there? The final. Is that a shot? Yeah, it was a big... No, it is, though. That's a good crowd, isn't it? Yeah, and it's the first time we met. Obviously, I roomed with you. You don't remember, but I roomed with you in that tournament. Oh, it was Casper. I roomed you for a few days and you roomed with Casper for a few days. You used to switch us around. Yeah. Yeah, you did. Two, three days enough, yeah. Rotate, isn't it? It's like a squad rotation. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybest.

Talk to me about your childhood, Sol. Who did you support? Who did I support? England. You didn't support a club at that time? No, no, not really. My local team was West Ham. Never really, you know, connected. You never got to go there or you never went? Once, yeah, once. You know, back in the day you used to kind of have a...

last 15 minutes so one of my mates took me to Upton Park back in the days and they opened the gates you mean yeah couldn't bloody afford to go to football games no chance that was it really I used to like Man United you know there's different reasons why I used to like Man United I think back then when I was at Liddishore they were one of the teams that had quite a lot of black players playing for them at the time a lot so that was the reason why I kind of liked them other than that England I used to love watching them just loved playing for England

Could you assign for United? United wanted you at home. Look at that smirk on there. I can see a little smirk there. He bloody called me. Did you? He doesn't remember Sol. I called Gerrard. I called Sol. They all said no. Oh, no, it's happened to everyone up there. I remember I was having an afternoon nap and the phone call came through. And... Fancy United. I must have been 21 then. And...

Obviously, he didn't go any further because I think he did go further and he blocked it, really. Who blocked it? Well, Sugar. He must have, yeah. Didn't go any further. Did you get on with him, Alan Sugar? I think a lot of players have had difficult times with him. I saw an interview with Teddy the other day and he was talking about when he went in to see him about who he's signing and told Teddy something like, none of your business, you know. And Teddy just said, well, I'll shoot off. He didn't know who was coming for him, Ted.

and then United came for him so he's had a result but it seemed like Sugar was a tough guy tough guy to do it should he have to tell Teddy why would you go and see a normal guy yeah but the thing is I think because Teddy was an experienced player in that he just wanted to fight because Teddy wanted to win things yeah I get that so he just he wanted to go in and ask you know what I mean you know what it's like he wanted to go in and ask everybody could tell him a pack of lies I'm going to try and sign five or six players well he should have done that but Teddy might have stayed at the time talk to us about Tottenham how you get into Tottenham how

How did I get there? Yeah, how did you get to Tottenham, your journey to Tottenham? I was at West Ham. That was my first club, West Ham. In the academy? No, no, no. Like schoolboys. Schoolboys, yeah. Yeah, just turning up. Not signed. I didn't like signing for anybody. I liked to just play football. And I left West Ham. You've always been quite strong, haven't you, in your mind of exactly what you want? Yeah, well, I left West Ham because, obviously, a few things happened there. I was 13 years old. What happened?

Just a few kind of, you know, as one scenario happens after the game, sorry, training, training, and then you kind of come off, I think they still train at Chadwick. And I'm saying, right, I'm not too happy. I'm not too happy about, I've finished training off and then one of the guys said to, oh, cheer up, Sol, you're 2-1 up. I said, what do you mean 2-1 up? Well, you know, West Indies, you know, 2-1 up against England, cricket. I thought, what's that all about?

So you left there straight away? Yeah, it was a mixed race, the guy as well. You left for that? I left, yeah. I'm not having this anymore. And, yeah, I went back to district football. And then they picked me up again. I went to Lench's. He was the scout back in those days. And then I started training. I was training with... Bex used to rock up as well. Was he Spurs or West Ham? Spurs. Yeah, and his Mayonited kit. A cardboard Umbro training kit.

He used to turn up. So you definitely knew where he was going. But he used to rock up. All local lads, isn't he? He's been chinked on from Plastow. So it was good. And then from there, just, yeah, that's how it happened. You get to Tottenham, you join full-time.

I'm not getting there yet, don't worry. It's coming, don't worry. I'm building you up to it. I need a whisky. Get a shot of whisky. Any particular brand? Anyone, just quality. You see, you're to Tottenham and you break into the first team and at that time you're obviously a big player for England who've come on the scene. It's very difficult at that time, you know, for youngsters to break through. I mean, now it's easy.

You think it's easy to now break through compared to then? No, no, no. Back then, how many youngsters were playing in the first team? 18-year-olds. We had a lot, though. We had a lot at United, if you remember that time. We did break quite a few through, but you say it was harder at Tottenham specifically? Well, no, I think generally, how many youngsters were playing? Not a lot. Now it's easy. Not easy, but there's a lot more youngsters going into the first team. Back then, it was quite hard.

Not many players. Who was manager then, Salah? The first team at Spurs? Venables. Venables, right. Yeah, yeah. Well, I played one game, scored a debut, and then weren't seeing a game until the whole change. After Euros. After 96? Yeah. No, no, under-18s. Under-18s. And then Ozzy and Steve Perrott came in. And then it changed. What do you mean it changed? So Terry wasn't playing you, or...? Well, no, I was 18. Yeah. Scored my debut, I thought, you know, this is it, but...

I was kind of thinking, you know, if it doesn't move, I might have to say, I'm off. You were thinking that? Yeah. It's not usual for a young player who's come through the academy to make the first team debut and then get left out for a few games, which was normal at most of the clubs. You came in once to think, I'm off. You were thinking that straight away? Yeah, I was giving myself a couple of years. I was trying to think.

The trouble is, when I was starting, there was a lot of players who were getting in the youth team, getting in little shouts, getting in and things like that. I was playing for England, coming back and watching other players, you know, who were not even getting into England, you know, playing in the Tottenham side. You know, it might be friendlies or whatever. So, I mean, is it professionally kind of a jealous kind of thing? But I'm thinking, well, why am I not getting a chance? Get your chance, score on your debut, and then you don't see me again. Get it? But, you know, it changed. The whole thing changed, and...

I was giving it two years. I was actually thinking about going to Forest. Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking about it. What made you think about going to Forest? I don't know. I don't know. Did you get approached at that time by Forest? No, no, no. No. You just thought... If it weren't going to happen, I'm off. I want to win. I want to win. I want to play. Why Forest then? I don't know. Was he just seen the way he played or something? I don't know. Was that Brian Clough then, obviously? Brian Clough would have been the manager. Yeah, I don't know. I was looking at that for whatever reason.

Wow. It's a strong mindset. Yeah. You know me, I want to win, I want to play, I ain't got time to hang about. I'm kind of ambitious and work hard. But also ruthless and clinical thinking at that age. Forget Tottenham, I'm going to go to Forest, I need to get in. Well, it's Forest, it could be someone else or whatever. I'm going back to my experiences, we've all obviously been young players at club, but usually when you're at a club, you're a bit...

You're almost in some ways, because you're young, you sort of do what you're told type thing.

You're not in that category. Well, I was giving myself two years. If it weren't happening in two years, I was gone. So 18 to 20. And Minecraft was there at the time. Do you remember? What year would that have been? Yeah, it would have been, yeah. It would have been definitely there. You would have enjoyed working with him. Yeah, I can imagine. What a story. Yeah, of course. No, but that's great self-belief, isn't it? Where do you think that comes from? Is there anything in your childhood? East London, Plastow, Stratford. Have you been there? It's not easy. Yeah.

I admire people like that I admire people who are like 18, 19 who've got nowhere to go when we were younger players you were you did talk you're a bit in awe aren't you you were with managers you're frightened to death but you've got that determination that's a nice trait to have you're in the first team under Ozzy yeah and it's going well yeah it's going it's ticking on nicely yeah

you're playing and you're getting moved all over the place so but you're playing left back right back centre half midfield the whole cycle again up front the Spurs were entertaining them weren't they was that the back you were enjoying a little bit was Aussie was a bit gung ho a little bit yeah a little bit I think if Aussie had a few kind of experienced players they could have

defensive players could have helped him big time yeah because he was going up front he's a wonderful player as well going for Argentina and he just loved to kind of get on the ball wanted to score goals but if he had a couple of experienced players to kind of do his job for him on the pitch I think it would have been alright sometimes we were just going up front and just a little bit too open yeah yeah

So your journey at that time, you get picked in the Euro 96 squad. Obviously, I'm in there as well. So your trajectory is going quite fast and quite quick. It is. Not quick enough for you, I don't think, by the sounds of it. I think that's the perfect place to be in Euro 96. You're 21, you're in the Euro 96 squad. Perfect, yeah. So we're happy now. We're happy we're playing for England at 21. Yeah, we're happy, yeah. And then where are we at beyond that? Talk to us about that next few years at Tottenham and...

So talk about your contract situation. I know we're going to get to the point where your contract runs out, but again, quite unique in that period. I know you got to that point, Roy, where a young player that's been at a club usually gets tied down on contracts that are four, five, six years, and you end up never being able to get out of the cycle of basically sort of always being under lock and key if they want you. How did your contract situation take you from a point whereby? When did you start to think about it? What were your length of contracts? Most of them were like four years, most, yeah.

and they would usually come back in I think for me when I started to look at other players who are above me one player really sticks out was um Gary Mabbott Amon Mone

No, no, no, just how he was treated. Okay. And so I kind of saw how Gary Mabbitt was treated and, you know, he's captain, top player, you know, he's respected and he was like not really looked after and then I said to myself, he's given everything. He had diabetes. Back then, I used to see him how he used to kind of, you know, test his blood, come out, check, like, coke or diet coke or whatever. You know, that was like, there was not much kind of knowledge about it. So he was kind of

almost a doctor with himself just to play football. You know, so, and they, the way they kind of, you know, I saw he was getting his testimonial and they kind of made him, you know, part of the stand was getting done so that didn't help but they made him pay for this and pay for that and it's like, if they treat him like that, God, they're going to treat, you know, anyone, you know, not the best. But the main thing for me is like, growing up, playing, enjoying football

they never the school the kind of situation was happening they never pay the youngsters who've grown up proper money there's always uminari but if someone is bought in oh they put him on big money but then players who've actually come out through the ranks and top top players will be the future of the club they don't want to pay them

It's bizarre. That's in general, though, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And then so for me, going forward, it was four years. And then the next four years, obviously, is a difficult moment, you know, because I'm moving up in the right direction and then the contract is running down. I get that. And, you know, there's been a couple of programmes, a couple of, you know, Sky's got one at the moment on. But the thing for me, the difference is like, you know, I had a problem with...

in a particular game, you know, and it kind of lingered on for like 15 months and it all started from the game against Derby County away. So I've got, I don't know, two years left. What's the problem? The problem is you've got Colin Calderwood who's playing alongside me and he was having a barney all day long in the game against Baiano, the Italian player. I don't know why, scored a winner and I'm done and I've gone off.

So the game's finished, 1-0, everyone's happy, and I've gone off. Just back going into my changing room, he runs past me and he jumps into the Diver County, you know, and he's looking for Bejano. So everyone's jumped in. And I've said, look, effing whatever, get back in the changing room. I've said it three times. Been captain, gone in. Three weeks later, I've got a letter saying, David Pleat comes to me and says, hey, Sol, I've got this letter, someone's broken their arm or frisked. I said, what? What do you mean? I've done nothing. I've just said something three times, went in.

Three weeks later, three weeks later, goes on, goes on. They're looking to press charges. Who is? They. Who's they? The steward who broke his wrist. At Derby? At Derby after the game. I was thinking, what is going on here? I've done nothing.

So it rolls on, rolls on, and then you've got to get affidavits, and then you've got to give people who've got to come in. I think Mabek came in and character witness and all that kind of stuff. Then you get drafted up there. You're in there. You're in the Derby County's police station. I'm hiding. No one sees me. It's a mess everywhere. And then you're getting fingerprinted, and you're getting pictures. And at the same time, there's other people saying, oh, can I have an autograph? I'm thinking, well, what is this? Am I getting arrested for something I've not done?

And that went on for 15 months? 15 months. Wow. Stuart just said that you'd done it. Yeah, you'd done it. And then I'm thinking, what is going on? Why is it going on so long? Because I've not done anything. So the last one was just before the case happened.

I think he's in Ireland. He's an internal lawyer. He said, here's a snippet, you know, a Lord getting bound over. I said, what do you mean bound over? Well, bound over, you omit it, you pay a fine and it goes away. I said, what do you mean? I'm not going to do that. This is a Tottenham lawyer, isn't it? Yeah, Tottenham internal lawyer. I said, I live and die by my own words. I've not done anything. Left it and then goes on and goes on. Then the case is about a month away. Tottenham says, right, we'll put it out.

What do you mean pulling out? Pulling out funding. They're not paying for anything anymore with the lawyers. So you've got to pay for it? I've got to pay for everything. So it takes a week to get the stuff in. And then my lawyer's looking through it all, all the paperwork. He said, what's happening? Well, how has this gone on for such a long time? Because you're in front. Then another kind of person said, one of the other guys said, you're on the side, in front, whatever. It's all over the place. How has this gone on for such a long time?

And then you got, what, 10 days before the case? They drop out. Case is dropped. And then in the paperwork, you look at, there was an old fax when they sent the paperwork to me, and it's got old fax, and back in the days, you saw the name scrubbed out. And then Diaby County player put in there. And then you've got the name of the player, and then also Diaby County player. I left, I supposed to have done this at 10 to 5. But on the hospital report, he's done it like half past 10, like pre-match.

So how did that... He's done it pre-match. So he's done half ten. So they've known that all that time, but it's dragged on this long? Yes. Tottenham knew that. Well, either the hierarchy or the lawyers.

So it's like really just giving you, trying to get one over you, like the bound over. So we'll sign this. And if this comes out, we'll sign this crap deal. I think it was all about the deal. So basically, you're going through this legal case. Tottenham have, you think, lawyers and hierarchy of the club have seen documentation which shows that you're innocent of this, basically this incident. And you're simultaneously negotiating your football contract. Yep. And you believe they were using one to portray... For sure. For sure.

Just for me to sign a crap deal. Or have leverage. What, what, just, I mean, look, because I think... This is sad. Yeah, we're not talking about commercial confidentiality. What you've just said is absolutely startling. What would the contract, what would the contract have been at the time that they were offering you that's a crap deal? Because obviously money's changed completely now, but what would they have been offering you at that time and what sort of money would say, you know, would Arsenal have been offering you double money or, you know what I mean? I think for us, like for me, it was like, you know,

and then it was chopped up as well. You had to kind of win this, win that, win this to get the full, I don't know... That wasn't going to happen, was it? That wasn't going to happen! You know that, it wasn't going to happen. Um...

Yeah, there were so many kind of ties on it. But then it wasn't about the money, Sal, but you were hurt. For me, that is like, basically, you wanted to kind of almost get one over me or have leverage over me just for me to say... It's like Van Dyke, you know, going through the situation now. It's like trying to pin something on Van Dyke now. Mm-hmm.

Same thing. And then in the actual Sky, you've got Pleaty saying, well, he tried to sling me out, put me in reserves. Who's the manager at this time? George Graham.

Yeah, completely came, you know, on the actual Sky kind of programme and saying, well, you know, Sugar wanted to kind of take me out of the first team and then, so, you know, captain out of England just for me to kind of, you know, slap me on my wrist or keep me out of the game. So I come to my senses and sign a crap deal. If all that hadn't have happened, do you think you would have signed the deal? Well, yeah, I think for me, once that happened, I ain't got time for that. Literally, he tried to put me away for no reason.

And then you start thinking to yourself, well, how people are innocent and how people get put away for something they've not done. And then everyone's starting to believe. You know, for me, going around and going to some banks or whatever, people looking at me and thinking I've bust someone's wrist when it's someone else. It's another player, South American player. I think you spoke in detail about this before. I said it in my book, no one said anything. I said it last time with a couple of podcasts, nothing. So no one bought your book?

Am I right now? I had actually heard that story. It's sad. It's unbelievable. You're a young boy coming out and then they're trying to pin that on you. So there's no going back for you then? You were definitely going to get out? Done, done, done. So how long from the end of the trial being dropped was your contract left then? So how long do you have left? A year, basically.

And for that year, it was quite an uncomfortable year. Yeah, it was. I remember at the time, all the time the focus was on how you're going to sign. A little bit like Van Dijk and Salah now. It was a lot of questions every single week for the manager. It was a big thing. But also, there was no mention at that time of where you were going. I didn't decide. I've not decided. But once that happened, I said, that's it, I've got time for that. He don't do that to me. I mean, that's it. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Sky Betts.

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If you're already a fan, you know Bill's one of the funniest comedians out there. And if you're new to Bill's comedy, this is a great place to start. See the new hilarious stand-up special, Bill Burr Drop Dead Years, now streaming on Hulu. I never used to talk to anyone before the game, like my own family. You open the paper and it's rugby's on its knees. You're like, is it? It was the most hated man in Wales. If I've got something to say, I'll say it.

What's the worst injury you've all had? I broke my nose in New Zealand. Broke it on Saturday and played on the Wednesday. Breaking your nose is the worst thing ever. You can't not play. I had 14 stitches down the front there. I said, I don't need anaesthetic to do it. And they're like, legend. You're hard-ass, mate. Hard-ass. Are we excited? Oh, yeah. Vicious rumour is we're recording a podcast called Stick to... Rugby. Stick to Rugby. That's it. Not football. Not football.

I couldn't think of a better group of bald men that I'd like to hang out with. A brand new podcast that dives into the game we love like never before. Stick to rugby. We'll talk rugby, but not the usual chat. Mike Johnson, hard as ****. Get out of here. We'll cover the big talking points, but we'll share the great stories too. I lost once to Scotland, it was the worst day of my life. And then I appeared on the front page of the news of World of Folling Wig. LAUGHTER

Look at Flats there, holding a ball. He won Man of the Match once and didn't touch the ball. Big opinions. The number of people playing rugby is going down and down, and that needs to change. And some wicked guests. We need to widen the audience a bit. Who have you got on your phone book? Jude Law, Ray Winston, Daniel Craig, Madonna. And that's a wrap. This is the one rugby podcast you can't miss. Make sure you subscribe to Stick to Rugby, brought to you by Defender.

So just take us forward then into that last year of your contract and at what point you've decided that you're not going to sign for Tottenham. What clubs come in for you in that last six months of your contract? Juventus? No. Not Juventus? I think Bayern came in really early but...

You don't know. You don't know. Is this newspaper? Who's phoning you up? Is it him or is it someone pretending to be? You don't know. Back in those days, you don't know. He called me as well. I hope I was the right guy. You don't know. You don't know. Basically, you'd lot of options, yeah. Not lots. Did United come in?

No, not then, no. They came at 21. So which clubs came in that you were seriously considering at that time? Liverpool came down, but I can't remember who was the manager. He didn't come down for a meeting. That's important to you, isn't it? Yeah. I went to Inter, went over there to have a chat with them.

And then Barcelona at the end, but you just don't know. It's all kind of propaganda. They're not bad options, Arsenal. Jesus Christ, I said you could do good options. Yeah, but then Ronaldo left. Inter, they left. There's only Rokoba there. And then Arsenal obviously came at the end. Who was the first person from Arsenal to contact you? Mr Dean? No.

Do you know what Gary Lewin can... Gary Lewin used to always say his little bit. Gary Lewin. For the physio. Gary Lewin's fingerprints are on the ring. Don't get reached out to the... Yes, Lewis. So he used to say just a little tongue-in-cheek kind of thing.

And the first time that someone from Arsenal came to speak to you about seriously this, because this is a big, this is the moment, whether you like it or not, and to be fair, from what you've just said, you're well within your rights to go and do whatever you want and go and play wherever you want. But this is the most controversial transfer in, I think, modern history in my lifetime. I think so. There you go. Sorry, in this country. Yeah. In this country. Really? Yeah, I think so.

Congratulations, Sol. What's the point whereby you think this is going to go quite deeply? Who's the first person you speak to that offers you a contract at Arsenal or sits down with you and talks about actually coming to the club? I know Gary's said, would you do it? Not really, it's just tongue-in-cheek. Yeah, but then who's made that first move? I think it's David Dean, there's Arsene. But it's not through me.

It's through your agent? Yeah, yeah, it's not through me, yeah. When's the first time that you sit down with them? Late on. Was it Arsene or David? Both. Where was it? He asked, David Deans.

Somewhere around there. Yeah. Yeah. I think everyone's talked about that anyway. They obviously know that. Yeah, but surely so in that time, especially if you are at Tottenham and you're going to meet Arsene Wenger and David Dean, that's got to be in his house. That's got to be in his garden. You can't go anywhere. I think everyone knows where I met them. Everyone knows that. At Bourne. Yeah, in Tottenham. Right. Yeah.

How difficult a decision was it for you in terms of the consideration of the consequence of the media noise and the scrutiny and the criticism that you were going to get from Tottenham fans? I think for me, the episode of trying to frame me for no reason, I think that really just kind of governed my kind of, partly governed my kind of decision. And also I wanted to win. I mean, you think like someone's trying to kind of frame you for no reason.

As a footballer, you're just out playing. You're a young boy. You're just playing. You want to win. I wanted Tottenham to win. I wanted to win. Is there a bit of revenge then in your move? Not revenge. It's like, you know, when you look at it, it's like you've been almost done over. Yeah. For no reason. You're innocent. I haven't decided where I'm going. But that obviously shifts you.

Your mindset shift after that. But were Arsenal the ones that came in with a definite, we want you to come? No. No, just, it's all about conversation, isn't it? Talking. It's a delicate situation.

Was it a decision based on hurt a little bit? Because going to a rival club, maybe you'd think about it a little bit more because you're so hurt. I know you want to win, but are you like, this is what I'm doing. I kind of don't give a shit. I'm not saying I give a shit, but I think the Inter one just kind of, you know, dropped away. You know, Ronaldo left and things like that. So,

But then I still had the summer. I was injured as well at that time. So I think I had the summer to really think about things. And then as time went on, things unfolded. And then there was only one winner. Was there anyone else in at that time? No. The last ones? I wonder if Barcelona, but you just never know. You just don't know if they were kind of serious. They might have been serious, I don't know. Who knows? You never know, do you? Until you sign pen and paper, you...

You never know. Do you ever look back and think that you would have made a different decision? Well, maybe, I don't know, maybe, you know, leaving at Tottenham maybe at 21 when Maynard came in. If he didn't block it, it would have been a different story. Maybe. Who knows? When you left Tottenham, obviously you've left for a personal reason because of what's happened. And also to win. You wanted to win. That's what I was going to come to. When you see what's happened at Tottenham in the last 25 years since, is it vindication of your decision about Tottenham not being set up to win?

I think for me, you know, I don't know what's going on in the club. I don't know what's happening. But I can say when I was around, it's all about the recruitment of players and the quality of players that come in and also the mentality, you know, you need to kind of instill in everybody from the top down to the players and then back up again as well. So it's like a two-way door. You know, if there's no respect and there's no kind of that hardship, that kind of understanding that people are working really hard, whatever you're doing, but all...

you know, singing from the same hymn sheet, that wasn't there. It's all, you know, even some of the players were like, you know, Lily White, so I'd rather see who I've got on my arm in the, in the, in the, um,

kind of players lounge and models or whatever and then you played rubbish on a bloody Saturday what are you doing? or going up May Night in Liverpool I've got hamstring and I'm thinking I'm 20 years old I said I don't fucking give a fuck I'm playing these guys that's my mentality I want to win but you had all these kind of guys not everyone but there's a lot of them just like it's a bit too difficult today I'm not going to turn up you know that's the mentality that's got to just get rid of

And then one man can't do it. I mean, if you're playing football and you have to kind of elevate yourself every week and you've got no help on the pitch, you're going nowhere. They're strong words for your teammates. Well, if you look at the team I left, the team I went to, it's a different universe. Talk to us about that. The differences then between that Tottenham dressing room and that Arsenal dressing room when you walked into that one for the first time, because that's obviously a great dressing room. You just feel the quality as soon as you step through. You feel the quality. Yeah.

You feel like this is set up to win, you know, the possibility to win, you know. And the characters in the room are just, you know, you just feel it. That's what it's all about. You know, you've got winners in there. You've got guys who are working hard. You've got guys who are, you know, top players and still doing, you know, 15, 20 minutes at the end. You know, that's what it's all about. And no one's telling them to do that. They're all doing it because they've all got pride in their game and they're quality players, you know.

the gentleman of it, but then they're rough and ready on it and they're skillful. And you can only benefit. You work less as a top player. You work less. And then when those big games come on, you just elevate and you go to another level. So if you've got all those players at the optimum kind of level, you work less. You win more. That's what it's all about. Yeah. Yeah.

you know, Arsene did well. He collected all these great players, inherited great players as well. I mean, that helped him in the beginning, but that mentality that kind of stayed with the team and you want that, you need that.

You're single-minded, aren't you? No, no, it's like... It's a compliment. I wanted Spurs to win. I wanted Spurs to win. And a couple of players did come, but it wasn't enough. The kind of, you buy two or three, and then two free leave, and then it's like... Even with Teddy, Teddy had to go. He had to go Man Utd to win. And he's had the same situation as well. So it's not like it's just happened. This is continuing, you know?

This is happening. If you're a top player, a really top, top player, and you, your time's running out to win things, I mean, it gets desperate. I mean, in the end, Harry's gone because it's almost last chance to lose and he's, hopefully he's going to do it. You know, top, top centre forward's going to do it. But,

You've got to be careful, you know. You can end up just playing and then just win nothing. I mean, in the end, you can lose everything as long as you've got something to show. Hey, this is what I won together with an amazing team. That's what it's all about. Did you feel like you could fit in at that level straight away? Yes. I loved it. I just had to kind of obviously get used to the players and things like that. And then there's a lot of pressure. I mean, I don't think anyone's going to be...

under that type of pressure ever again. It's like severe, constant. I think people don't realise how difficult it was to play under that. You know, you get the situation. Now guys have got their own platforms, so you didn't have to always go through the newspapers and things like that. You can say, hey, what about this, what about that? And you can say your story. And I think that's a big thing now. You know, I didn't have that. So you've got that big kind of immense pressure, pressure cooker, you know, you turn left, turn right, could be the wrong move. So you have to be, you know, on it.

you know, all the time. Plus, also I had to get fit. I came in injured. Ankle.

So I had to kind of get fit. And then obviously Tony and Martin Keogh was the centre-halves at then. So I had to kind of get fit and then get into the team. And your agent looking after the physio, he was there as well. I'm here to help you, no doubt. It's easy done, the deal. You went in there, it was like a family. And then I remember Tony came, like, last time we won anything, we had three top centre-halves. So he knew something was coming.

He knew someone was coming. You know, Tony. I remember Tony saying that. Who were the big... I mean, obviously, the big characters were in that dressing room, but who had the biggest influence on you in that first 12 months in terms of setting the tone for you at Arsenal? I think they all did, you know. They all were top, top players in their own positions...

They all had a bit of character about them. And they kind of showed in different ways. So I was very, you know, I'm a great watcher. I'm seeing what's happening. You see where you fit in. But the main thing for me is, like, you just show people in training your attitude, you know, every day turn up, do things proper. You know, when you get a chance, you show them. And that's what it's all about. And you start to kind of bed in. You start to chip away. And then they start, you know, relaxing a little bit and understanding who you are. Because they don't know who you are. They've seen you from afar.

and you've got to kind of gain their trust and who did you attach to who was the one that you thought I got close to in that dressing room I think Ashley was really good to kind of you know Coley was great I think Thierry as well Patrick

It was good. Martin, in a strange way, he was good. And obviously Dave Seaman as well. It's nice to hear that, Sol. Because obviously we were in a United dressing room. We have all, what you were just saying, we were saying, yeah, as if sometimes you think you're the only club doing it. You know, really good players, good characters. The players you've just rolled off your tongue, if they're training properly, no wonder they're a bloody good team. You know what I mean? It's nice to hear from other clubs about this quality. Yeah. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybest.

Oh.

Requires upfront payment, taxes and fees extra. Terms and exclusions apply. Visit BoostMobile.com for full offer terms and sweeps details. Hey folks, it's Mark Maron from WTF. Whenever Bill Burr comes on my show, we're bound to have some good laughs. Yes. And now you can get all new laughs from Bill direct from the stand-up stage. Bill is now streaming his hilarious stand-up special, Bill Burr, Drop Dead Years, only on Hulu.

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Yeah, nice stuff. Relax for a couple of minutes. The Invincibles. Where do you rank it? Obviously you played in the team, so where do you rank it when it comes to the other achievements in English football that you've seen? How do you place it as an Arsenal player? Because we always think at United ours is a great achievement, people at City will think it's theirs, people at Liverpool will think it's theirs. Where do you see it from an Arsenal perspective?

I think when you look at it and you look at, say, the achievement of going a whole season and then, you know, 49 games as well,

We're going to go there. We're going to go there. I know it's all been said, yeah. But I think for me, beating a record that stood over 100 years, given that there was 12 teams back in those days and everyone's probably drinking and not even doing things properly back in the days. But it's still, you know, it's over 100-year-old record.

There's a lot of football to be... had been played. So, it's definitely up there, one of the best achievements. You know, when you look across the world, there's like, I don't know, 30, 40 teams have done it in different countries. But just to kind of be the first, it's an incredible achievement. We had a little bit of luck on the way. You need that, for sure. You know, especially at Man United with Ruud and there's other chances as well. Talk to us about the end of that run, which was the 49 game run. Obviously, the 50th game was at Old Trafford. And...

you were obviously involved in an incident with Wayne. It's a foul, that's right. It wasn't an incident, it's a foul. You know what I mean? You could have got badly injured with that tackle. You're a lucky boy. Sol at this time is an experienced player so he knows if he puts his leg out in the penalty area he's given me an opportunity. I pulled it back. You pulled the leg back? Yeah.

But you put it out to start. I think VR, they'll see, obviously... I love it. I love it so long and it's still... Is it true? Honestly, we've messed up with England and he wouldn't speak to me. I was like, so, come on, man. You know, it's got to end sometime, but it's just a shame how it ended and VR was around, it's a different situation. But I think for us, at the end...

It's like, God, when's it going to end? You're just kind of hanging on. You just can't believe it's going on. By then, it's like, that's a season and a half. I'd just sound familiar to that. He earned...

Obviously there was a big rivalry between us United and Arsenal at the time as well and I always remember before the game the manager like, God, he's won this 50 games and obviously what had happened with Rude I think it was the year before as well so you can feel that intensity before the game as well. It was your birthday that day apparently. Yeah, I was 19, yeah. Did you take the penalty? Rude did and then I scored the second smudge across the end. Did it hurt that?

Obviously you're not speaking to Wayne was that something you just thought I'm not forgiving you for that? Yeah obviously it hurts it hurts because you want it to be done properly don't you you want to lose proper but it is what it is it's not it would have been 1-0 but you know you move on you move on you

but it's it's a shame wasn't it a relief that it's done now because that's what I said before I alluded to that you know you get to the stage you're thinking god when's it going to end you know just keep going don't you I like that rivalry though because sometimes I see teams finish now like straight after the game and they're like hugging and chatting and I'm like I remember having like a good meeting I remember on the Tuesday ringing her and she was like you just beat us on Sunday it was like Chelsea v City and she was fuming I'd phoned her

But I think that's how it should be. I can't imagine in a tough... Obviously, if the England trip was three weeks after the game, they're on the pitch for ages, talking after the game. Get in the dressing room and then after you've showered, whatever, you want to chat, chat. It's 20 years, actually, I think, this week. You talk about the rivalry since, obviously, Roy in the tunnel with Patrick and, obviously, that was over me.

Yeah, what is that? A shirt or whatever? I don't know. What is it? You gave a shirt for charity? I don't know. What is it over? I don't know. With Patrick in the tunnel? Yeah, what was it over? What do you mean? Oh, you were playing in the game. It was over the previous game at Old Trafford where apparently we...

We'd kicked you quite a bit. Was that with Reyes? I saw that also, yeah. No, you were there. Yeah, I saw that. Was that the one with Reyes? I played with Reyes. Yeah, I was playing with Reyes. Obviously, we knew each other quite a long time. But I remember Ashley coming up to me in that game at Highbury and screaming in my face when you scored the first goal. But what was the anger and the emotion before the game in that dressing room? What was it that got...

I know that obviously you were wound up about the previous game at Old Trafford, but you don't get angry like that before a game. Were you angry? No. You didn't get involved in it, did you, really? No, I didn't get involved. Just, I mean, you know, there's other powers that be and other people with their own kind of acts of grind. And you can't get involved in everything. You know, you've got to play your game. You can't get involved in every single thing, every single argument.

Because if you'd have got angry, I'd have proper shit myself. I think it needed it. I think Patrick... Patrick was the one who kind of started that. It needed that game. It was Patrick Thierry and there was a few more. Robert Perez. There was a few of them that were at it. Brilliant it was. It's brilliant. But it was, you know, is it box office? Is it, you know, great kind of, you know, viewing...

to have that rivalry, to have that kind of competitive spirit for both sides. I know some things kind of went over the top into other areas, but...

But for me, everybody wants to win, don't they? In the highest possible way. It shows their passion, as long as it doesn't go over the top. Passion for football. Passion to win. Pride. On Sunday, again, I missed that rivalry between United and Arsenal. They're almost nice to each other. There's no tension. I know United are obviously down towards the bottom of the table.

but compared to when we played against each other you need that and you drive each other on you're one of the obviously great centre-halves in the Premier League I'm going to name someone I want you to talk about where you sit where you place yourself where do you think I sit that's a better word yeah let's name the centre-backs John Terry Rio Ferdinand Nemanja Vidic Virgil van Dijk Vincent Kompany

Yap, Stam are just five or six that I've named. You should put Ledley King in there. You should do that thing. Jamie Carragher, sorry. There you go. There you go. There you go. Hibia? Hibia? Sammy? Yeah, maybe Sammy Hibia. He's a great centre-half, but I wouldn't put him probably in with those six. There might be some I've missed out. Gary Pallister, Steve Bruce, others. Tony Adams. Yeah. Yeah.

The one that I think that I have you most like is Yap Stam. So the reason I say that, Sully, is when I played with Yap, I felt like Yap was one-on-one. I don't think he was beatable. I don't think you'd get past him. And I used to think you were like that with England and you were like that with Arsenal. No one's going past you just basically by speed or by strength or doing you in the air. So it's difficult because obviously Rio's a completely different centre-back than you. Nemanja's a completely different centre-back than you. But I would put you sort of, if you like, in the Yap Stam category. Where would you place yourself?

I think when you look at it, you've got to say to yourself, you know, you've got Virgil van Dijk and those guys in there. And when you look at the players I played against for centre-forwards, you run the names of, say, oh no, you've got Thierry, you've got Dennis, you

You've got Big Dunk. He gave you a different type of problem in the air and physicality. Then you've got Emil Heskey. You've got Dwight, Shearer, Coley. All these guys. Dean Dublin, River Fowler, Michael Owen. Rooney. Rooney. All these guys are coming with a different kind of... You had to change a game. Right.

You had to be, ooh. You can't be just, oh, I just want to be this and want to be that. No, you had to kind of compete. I don't think those kind of players are around now in abundance. Centre forward wise, centre forward wise. You think it's easier to be centre back now than it was then? I think so, yeah. Don't get me wrong, there's qualities forwards. But that kind of era, that's hard. Ian Wright. Mm-hmm.

So, you know, I had to deal with him. He tried to shut my ear all the time, tried to put me off my game. That's Ferdinand. That's Ferdinand. But I didn't listen to him. You know, I wasn't listening to you, man. You didn't listen to me. I didn't listen to him. I just played my game. So I shut off and played the game. I think then as well, you come off the pitch as a forward and, you know, the defenders come off the same and you're knackered or you've been booted. You know, it was tough. I think now people, the players are coming off the pitch. They're just, oh. And just like... Playing another game. It's like nice and it's...

And like Mark Hughes. Yeah. Playing against him. Back in the day, you had to play against him. You know, the players have just been mentioned. So basically, you must sit and go, I'm up there with them. Yeah. For sure. Because I had to deal with all sorts of players. I think people, you know, as I said on Rio's podcast, like amnesia, I think some people, because they're not on your face all the time. Just look at the quality of players I played against and the quality I did, you know, consistently over 10, 20 years. Not just, you know, two or three years.

Vialli had to play against him. George Ware. Cantona? Have you mentioned Cantona? Etu. Etu! Who was the most difficult? Who was your most difficult opponent? You had to pick one. Is it the Phil? Donovan Barish. No, I think for me, it's like, I think the pairing, I think, with Thierry and Dennis, that was hard work. That was hard work. Relentless.

Just quality play and clever how they, you know, LinkedIn, them two. And they were incredibly strong, both of them, and they run all day long and really, really skillful. I think as a pair, it's hard. Obviously, Wazza was hard because in writing, because he was always in and around. So you had to watch. And then all these players, all these top, top, top, top centre forwards had to deal with. I don't think that's around. So you have to say, hey, I had to deal with all that all through my career. And I got through it.

Do you feel underappreciated? I think it's just society, isn't it? If you're not in people's faces, I think people just forget. Because you have said that you feel that what you achieved in football, you should be knighted and that you've not been knighted. Oh, no. Look, I think the main thing is, you know, I've seen people who have been knighted or OBMB for very little. And then some people have... And then some people have, they really, truly deserve it, you know? Um...

It's just the process of how they go about choosing, which is complex sometimes. But it is what it is. You've got your history, you've got your quality, things you've won and things like that, and you've got the good people who remember. It's just because if you're not in people's faces all the time, people forget.

take us to the end of your career because it's interesting there's some quotes you've made about people around this table I need to read a couple of them you've been digging around guys I've been digging around I've got some research digging around so in 2014 I'm working with Roy Hodgson for England and you basically said get rid of basically there was a question asked to you about why are England conceding so many goals get rid of Gary Neville get me in instead I've done all my badges and

Did I say that? In those words? That was players. LAUGHTER I had done my badges as well, so I did do my pro licence. I remember at the time he said, it doesn't bother me at all, I actually quite like it. We've known each other a long time and I know what you're like and you're strong-minded and you think, no, I back myself over people. What, did I say that? Is that what you're saying? No, I don't know, I can't remember. Did you think it was? He definitely said it. LAUGHTER

But you think you deserve an opportunity at that level? Is that what you've been thinking? You should get a chance to work with England, the senior team? I remember Gaz, we were sitting down, I think it was Cantona, it was Scolzi's test meal or whatever, and we were sitting there and you said you hated actually managing football. Coaching. You're coaching. I made a mistake going into coaching. You're absolutely right.

So he was doing you a favour, he was trying to get you out. No, but you don't feel as though you've had a chance, do you, in terms of management? You feel like you've been for job interviews and you've spoken about it quite regularly. Yeah, I think when you look at it, you've just got to look at, you know, you get your chance and then if your face fits and you've done a good job, you might get another chance, you know. Even, you know...

I had Macclesfield at Southend. Did really well at Macclesfield. You know, saved them. And then you think you get Southend. That's fine. But then COVID kicks in and you don't get another chance again. So do I love football? You know, I don't want to fall out of love with football. So, you know, for me, it's all about getting involved in football in another way, probably. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybet. You also stood to be an MP. Were you serious about going in? Who are you? LAUGHTER

Not you, Gaz. I've not stood to be an MP yet. I know you're thinking about it. I'm definitely not. You stood to be an MP. Not an MP, no. So he was a councillor or a mayor? He was a mayor. London mayor. So what drove you to stand for London? I love London. I saw how London was kind of, you know, functioning going forward. What do you mean?

Oh, I think opportunities. I think, you know, crime. I think a lot of things are happening there. And it's now coming to kind of, you know, into people's faces and into people's homes and how people feel business-wise, you know, crime-wise, all those kind of things. And I wanted to find out a little bit more how the ins and outs, how it was working. I mean, listen, we're talking like...

10, no, 12, 14 years ago now. It was a bold move. Yeah, bold, but I wanted to do something in London, sport. That was the kind of beginnings. And I wanted to find out how the nuts and bolts and how does that work as London. And yeah, I kind of went along with it a little bit and I kind of got to maybe the quarterfinals and that was it. But it was a good, it was a nice experience. I love London and I wanted to kind of help London.

That is one of the main reasons. I didn't want to be an MP, I just wanted to be mayor or in that system helping out from sport and all that kind of stuff. I wanted to be involved. Talk to us about when you travelled to Ipswich to sign for Roy Keane. No, I'm not. In London, didn't you? In London, at the house, yeah. At the chairman's house. Yeah, the owner's house, yeah. Yeah.

What about it? It was cool, wasn't it? Yeah, it was alright. It was alright. It's a big house in the Boltons. What's the Boltons? It's where I live. No, it's a nice area. It's South West London. One of those big villas. We couldn't persuade you, could we? No, not at the time. Where was you going at the time? I can't remember. I think I went back to, did I? I think I went back to Harsel then. Or Newcastle, one of those.

Yeah, it might have been Newcastle, yeah. Were you disappointed that you couldn't sign? What was yours? Obviously, we're meeting and we're trying to chat, yeah, of course. If you're thinking we can get Sal into the building, yeah, great. I need a bit of experience, probably. Did you like it there, though? At Ipswich? Yeah. It would have been better if you'd signed, maybe. It was tough going, but you would obviously have been a bit of help. Obviously, we knew it was going to be a bit of a stretch to get you there. How old would you have been then? Was it 34?

Four, five, maybe. How was your fitness then? Was it good? Good, yeah. I went back to play a few games at Newcastle and then obviously went back to Arsenal as well and played quite a few games for that last season. So it's good. It's fine. I did a lot of work at Arsenal. Tony Colbert helped me big time. And actually going back there, Arsene didn't want to sign me. So who signed you? No, he didn't want to sign me. He said, oh, you've left and that's it. People will leave the club, never...

never going to get the same heights again. And that was in his head and I kind of changed that. And then after that, he started to kind of sign all these players. I changed his mentality. Because he would think that once you've left and you've gone to another club, job done, you're not going to reach that heights again. But he didn't realise it.

He said, you know, he said, I never knew you could do it so. I said, well, that means you don't really know me. And I showed him. I had to, you know, because what happens is I left Notts County. Mm-hmm.

and I went and then yeah and then I went I was in limbo you can't you can't sign for two clubs in one kind of window so I was kind of hanging around until after after January to kind of you know find a club so I went back to Arsenal trained and the guys brought me in you know in the beginning I had to train over by the woods because they didn't want to see me um

And then I just kind of built, trained with the youth team, things like that, then with the reserves and academy, and I just built up my fitness. And then in the end, they kept on saying, oh, have you seen these numbers? He's better than some of the young lads. But he didn't want to see me. And then in the end, he kind of got battered down by all the lads, all the staff. He said, you've got to say so. So then what he did is on this particular session, it was like a session for him to say,

It's either a shit or bust for Sol Campbell. So he's got me in there and training, training, training to fight. And then at the end of the session, it's one-on-ones. So one-on-ones. And he said, Sol, in you go. And then he said, Cess, you go. So obviously he picked Sol, who's going to really put me under pressure. But then I came up trumps and I destroyed him. And I had a really good session. And you know what?

He just walked off in a huff. No way. Yeah. Because you'd proved him wrong. Yeah. And then he saw me after that. What's your relationship like with Arsene? It's fine, it's fine. I think at the time, I think I helped Arsene to make him realise, like, you know, there's a passion, there's the strength, there's someone who wants to keep on playing football and the desire, and he will show you. And I think he kind of missed that type of mentality, human being, in the actual changing rooms.

And I kind of shocked him and he didn't realise, almost in his head, that type of player doesn't exist. Talk about England, so. How do you see your England career? Because obviously we all see our England careers differently because we didn't win and we obviously know we didn't win. It's thrown back at us quite a lot. But how do you view that? I mean, I've played for England since, you know, 15, 16, like you. And all the way through. You know, won some stuff as a youngster and things like that and...

But obviously when it came to the first team, we just a bit, just came short a couple of times. And sometimes a referee decision as well could have helped us going forward or, you know, boot away like Gascoigne against, you know, Germany, you know, all that kind of Euro 96. So I think for me overall, there's some good tournaments and bad tournaments. I think I've probably enjoyed my time there. It's a shame we couldn't have, you know, at least get to a final. Um,

You know, look, against, say, Argentina, look at that situation. Have you had that now? It's a goal, you know, where I scored against them in the winning goal. The keeper's outside the six-hour boxes and then the referee says, ooh, Siro's kind of took him out. Well, how's he going to jump with no arms? It's not like he's on the line. You score a goal, you think that's it, and then you turn around and then they score the other end, the Argentinian team. So,

Was it the one in 2004? Yeah, yeah. Another one, he said, I was holding down, you know, I was holding down John Terry and he's saying he's holding down the keeper. I was spanning the other way and I've headed it in and, you know, five minutes, that's it, into the semi-final. So you're close, you're that, you know, it doesn't work out. You need that little bit of luck as well. You need your top team but you need a bit of luck as well. You know, and also Wazza, you know, getting injured and, you know, that obviously didn't help for us as well. You know, top player,

at the front, you know, going all guns and, you know, have that quality up front and we missed that as well. Which England manager did you enjoy playing under most? I think for me, I think when you look at it, there's,

There's Glenn. I think Glenn probably was, you know, he's very open in the sense that I try to bring a different type of football. You know, I started more on the left wing back, but also left at the three centre halves. So I really enjoyed that. You know, I enjoyed that kind of freedom and also getting back up, defending, going up, seeing if I can, you know, score a goal or cause a problem up front as well. I kind of like that position. I think he was kind of

I'm not saying he's headed his time, but he allowed the players to have that freedom. Obviously, he was a stickler for some strange things all the time, but it is what it is. You know, no one's perfect, but I think with Glenn, he was really open and he, you know...

I think the lads enjoyed playing with him. A lot of the England players speak highly of Norte. His football was probably an advanced level. His football was very... Scoles, he says, by far, he was the best coach that he had with England. He loved playing for him. But I think Venables was different in the sense that he was a really good man-manager with, obviously, knowledge of the game. Tactical, yeah. If you can control and get the best out of Gascoigne, you can get the best out of anybody.

So, you know, obviously Venables was incredibly good at that as well. Weren't you, like, given the captaincy? Were you 23 or something like that? So, yes, second youngest, and then Michael Owen got in the way, so... What? Got in the way? You are upset about... No, I think at the time you felt you should have been captain, didn't you? A lot more, yeah, a lot more, yeah. I had a meeting. Was it? It was a meeting with Barber. Paul Barber? Yeah, yeah. Up when I used to live in...

I used to live in a place called Hartford back in the day, so we had a proper meeting. You did with him? Yeah, yeah. He came over and we had a... It was an Italian restaurant I chose in my local area. But then, obviously, then you got... After that, you got... What do you mean, you had a meeting? It was with the manager. Kevin Keegan. And then he gets sacked and it all changes again. Was it a meeting over the captaincy? Yeah. You called it? No, they called it. What, to say you were the captain? No, wanted to be captain. They wanted you to be the captain. Yes.

And then what happened? Well, he got sacked. Who, Kevin? Yeah. And then he changed. Oh. Is that still bugging you? It is what it is, isn't it? You know, new manager, new ideas, people change. You know, it is what it is.

I think for me, it's like you've been almost being captain and then you become vice-captain, then you become no-captains, and then you become one of the best defenders in the world. So it's like you become one of the best defenders in the world, you're playing really top football and you're kind of nowhere near captaincy of your club, of your country. And you say, so what's going on? OK, I've moved from Tottenham to Arsenal, but I've gone on to another level.

That's the thing for me as well. It wasn't adding up and people were getting captain, the captain arm band who weren't captain at the clubs. So why do you think so? Why do you think they didn't get any captaincy? Is that obviously the managers? Yeah, the managers want someone else to be captain and things like that. And it is what it is. Just move on. I think you'd always feel he was the captain. When I was in the team, you could see obviously Bex was captain when I got in.

And then Stevie after that. Stevie, yeah. JT was for a bit, weren't he? Yeah. Rio. Is there politics with being the England captain? Yeah, big time. Is there? Yeah, I think so. I think it's less now. I think in that period there was, but then when I become captain, there was actually no one else really there to be captain, really. So it was quite an obvious choice, but I think back then there was big characters.

within the team and all probably thinking he should be captain and then in the end that ends up spilling over them a little bit I was going to say how do the older players react to a 23 year old being given the captaincy because do they think it should be them or no I don't think there was a problem I mean to be fair the players wouldn't kick off about who was captain don't think anybody said that I think behind the scenes did they yeah behind the scenes did they yeah

Politics. You should know that. A lovely little line. You're 50. What do the next 20 years bring?

20? Only 20? Shut up! What are you doing? Yes, Gaz, what are you doing? I could have said 30 or 40 or 50. 30 years then, 40 years. What does the next 30, 40 years bring? I think the main thing is work hard and, you know... Work hard in what? To get to 50 in anything, I think, you've got to pat yourself on the back. And that's what it's all about. And then you've just got to see what happens. You work hard, whatever you get into...

That's what it's all about, you know. Be happy. Try to kind of do something special, help people on the way. I think that's what it's all about. Stay healthy. Anything specific? No, I'm working on some football stuff, things like that. Doing my own podcast and all that kind of stuff. So working on a lot of things. Do you train every day? No, not every day. No chance. I just watch what I eat now. That's all.

A lot more. That's unbelievable. It's like he said no to the popcorn. Actually, watch what we eat. Do you remember how Saul would eat when we were playing, by the way? Oh, my goodness. I was with him in India as well, and I seen what he was eating out there. Yeah, but it was nice. It was nice. It was all good. What advice, when you look back, was the best advice you ever received? And what advice would you give your younger self? Um...

I think if you're, go for your dreams as well. That's one thing I, you know, go with your gut instincts, go with your kind of inner self, your soul, your spirit. If something truly is aligned with all those things, just go for it. And just don't, it's never going to put you too far wrong in the sense that it's always going to help you. It's always going to, even though it might be the kind of,

Paper-wise, it looks wrong, but internally it feels right. That's what I'm kind of big on now, even more so. That's what it's like, that compass, making sure you do the right thing.

So it's been absolutely brilliant having you on here. You said no to us a lot of times, didn't you? No, no. You did, you did. Well, if it's like a week, oh, your face is coming in in a week's time, no, I'm busy. Now, this time was proper. Give me three weeks in advance and then, yeah, OK, let's do something. Come on, not like, oh, a week time, like, oh, your face is coming in. Well, a week's normally quite a long time. A week, two weeks, no?

Those particular weeks, I was busy. But this is perfect. Thanks for that, Sol. Thank you. I was busy. It's already done. Sol, you've been brilliant. Thank you. Thank you. Nice one, Sol. What a legend. Picture. We'll have to have a picture else with him now. I miss you, Sol. I need you in my life more.

I love it. I love the dynamic of different personalities and characters. Yes. I like the awkwardness. What? Just the awkwardness. There's a couple of awkward moments. I was like, I don't want to see now. Give me more awkwardness. I like it. Yeah.

I like awkward soul look. You used to be like that, Sol, if I used to say to you, Sol, have you finished your massage yet? Yeah, Sol was the longest I've ever seen him massage. That's the reason why I played for such a long time. That's the reason why I played for such a long time. Right, there's no word of a lie. Sol used to lie in the treatment bed and he used to have two masseurs, one on each leg, right? And we'd all be waiting for a massage and they were both on Sol's legs and you couldn't get them off and he literally would just, like, sneer at you or anything. LAUGHTER

And they look at you and you think, I'm getting out of here. It was it. It was it. What's his name? What's his name? What's his name? The other one. Slacks. Slacks. He's his personal master. Oh, Slacks, yeah. He's his personal master. If he came in the room, that was it. Oh, yeah. See you, Sol. Yeah, but Sol used to have two, didn't you, at once? He used to have to book two slots. No.

Two slots. One slot. Two honours. Evening slot. Two honours. Evening. Oh yeah, it was always evening slot. Half late, nine o'clock, souls in. To make switching to the new Boost Mobile risk-free, we're offering a 30-day money-back guarantee. So why wouldn't you switch from Verizon or T-Mobile? Because you have nothing to lose. Boost Mobile is offering a 30-day money-back guarantee. No, I asked why wouldn't you switch from Verizon or T-Mobile. Oh. Wouldn't. Uh,

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