Ep 461: Backlist books that make your brain fizz
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Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogle, and this is What Should I Read Next? Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader. What should I read next? We don't get bossy on the show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week, we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

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Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier one compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash read next. Readers, I talk to many seasonal readers and today's guest has a twist on the usual seasonal reading dilemma. That's because Nell Cavallo is joining me today from midsummer in Sydney, Australia.

When Nell sent in her guest submission for the show, and she did that at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com slash guest, she told us that for her, winter meant reading the shiny and new, but summer was for backlist titles. And she really loves reading backlist. However, she agonizes over choosing what older books to read next, which

which she noted was really interesting because she doesn't agonize over the shiny and new, she just jumps in. But there are so many good backlist books to read. She wants to make careful choices. She wants them to be the right ones and it can leave her feeling stuck. Today, we're going to talk about it all. Plus, focus on books that provide her with that brain fizzy feeling she loves, especially books that are emotionally resonant and intellectually stimulating. Let's get to it.

Nell, welcome to the show. Hi, Anne. Thanks for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks so much for talking books today. I am excited. Although here's a peek behind the scenes, listeners. You're in Sydney, Australia, and I'm in Louisville, Kentucky, and finding a time where we're both awake was a little bit more of a challenge than it typically is.

That is true. I come to you from the future. It is Wednesday here, and I think it's Tuesday there. Does that mean? No, it doesn't. I was wondering if Tuesday would not be what should I read next day in Australia. But we publish very early in the morning, so we can catch you in the afternoon or evening. I do get it on a Tuesday. Yeah. Okay. We were just saying that time zone math is not complicated. Yeah.

And yet I do not find it to be easy. It is not easy from Australia. We are in a completely different time zone, obviously. So calculating whenever my friends are awake in various parts of the world is not fun. Well, thank you for making the effort for the books. Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm really excited. Now tell our readers about yourself. We'd like to give everyone a glimpse of who you are.

Well, I am a Sydneysider, born and bred in Sydney. I love Sydney so much. Yeah, I'm very passionate about this city. I think it's a great place to live. I live a few blocks from the beach, which is fantastic in the summer, especially, and it is summer here at the moment. So I can pop down for a swim on my lunch break if I'm working from home. And I try to get down there a

a lot. I love reading down at the beach as well. That's one of my favorite things to do. I am a single gal in my 40s. I've got no kids.

So I have a sort of relatively unusual life compared to a lot of other people, but it gives me a lot of time to really enjoy life, which is kind of a big philosophy of mine. You know, I'm all about just, you know, we get one chance on this planet, so go out and live it and enjoy it. So Sydney has great museums and it's got a great theatre scene.

I have a ton of friends. I have a big family. My family's Italian, so I have a lot of cousins. And yeah, I just love spending time with people. It's my favorite thing. Tell me about your house of healing that you mentioned in your submission. Oh, my house of healing. Yes, my little apartment. Well, because I do have a very independent life, I live alone. So there are no husbands or wives, no kids, no pets, no flatmates.

And I just have this open door policy with my friends and family that, you know, if they need a little bit of a break from their own life, they can come here and just sleep in the spare room and drink good wine and eat nice cheese or whatever it is that we have in the house. And we can just talk and they can sort of let their problems go and, you know, leave their

mum hat behind or their wife hat behind or their, you know, work hat behind and just come and just enjoy being in hopefully a bit of a calm and peaceful space. I have lots of bookshelves and I always have bubbles in the fridge and, you know, it's just that kind of place. I want people to feel like they can come here and leave their worries behind and just, you know, enjoy being

alone maybe for a second or away from the things that are bothering them. I love that for you. And also that you said in your submission that it makes you really happy, but also I imagine it makes others happy as well. It does make me happy. I love having people here. And I think when you are single, which is partly by choice, I chose this life, which is slightly different, I guess, from other lives, but I chose it because I really...

you know, wanted to embrace being able to do things, have a life of learning and have a life of knowledge and have a life of, um, I don't know. Yeah. Being around people all the time, which is my favorite thing. So I, I love having people here, but being single also means you do have to, you know, make the effort to be around people. Um, I would

get asked a lot, are you ever lonely? And I'm like, mate, I am never lonely. I wish I had time to be lonely. I don't. There's always people here. I'm always out. Yeah, it's a great life. I love it. I'm glad to hear that. Now tell us about your reading life. What does that look like right now?

Well, look, if I'm not reading, like so many of your listeners, I'm sure I don't feel like myself. I have always read. It's sort of what I do to relax. The thing about Australia is that we are a little bit seasonally backwards to the rest of the world. So when the big summer releases come out or the big spring releases or the big fall releases,

or autumn, as we would say here, we are in a completely different season. So a lot of the time, you know, the big summer books, for example, come out in winter here. So by the time it gets round to summer, they're done. I've read them. So I have to look for kind of other things to pick up, which is interesting. And that's why in the summer, I do tend to read a lot of backlist books because I feel like I'm kind of done with all of the big new releases by that point.

But I find my backlist TBR so overwhelming and I find it really hard to kind of not even know what to pick up. Yeah, I guess decide what to pick up, but also feel the same enthusiasm for picking up a backlist book. I feel like all of the buzzy titles are done throughout the year and

Part of the fun of reading for me is that I love talking to people about books. So I'm on Bookstagram and I've made lots of bookish friends. And yeah, I love being part of the dialogue, I guess, around books. And I think with backlist, quite often you're reading something that nobody else is reading, which is partly exciting. And I have to say, my backlist reading is usually really good. Like, you know, I enjoy so much of what I pick up.

But I think a tiny part of me is like, oh, I wish other people were reading this as well so I can chat about it with them. But yeah, so it's summer here right now. I've read, I think, most of the big releases of the year and I don't know what to pick up next. Well, you know what it sounds like. It sounds surprising to this US-based reader. I'm wondering if it's because of your particular way of finding out about books or...

or if it's because of what book coverage is like globally, at least US, UK to Australia, that you're thinking about the big books of our summer being the big books of your winter. How much does Australia have its own reading cultural landscape that would be informing your reading choices directly right there in your country where it is summer right now? Oh, look, Australia has a brilliant literary scene. I'm only sorry that

The books don't always make it sort of overseas. Sometimes they do, but I think we are so lucky to have amazing writers. It's actually been a brilliant year for Australian new releases. But I would say that it is still the same case where a lot of the big books are kind of still done by this

time of year. So we're kind of headed into a bit of a lull period with Christmas and New Year. That is that because it's summer here, obviously everybody's on break. So like you guys would have your...

summer holidays, I suppose, in July. We would have our summer holidays kind of now, just ahead of Christmas and sort of right through January. That's when the kids are off school. So it's not really ideal, even though it is our summer when you would expect, you know, big books to be published. It actually is not ideal here because everybody is off work. So it's not really a big time for books. Most of them have come out.

Okay. Now, I'm just looking at your submissions where you say that summer reading is a great opportunity to read backlist books instead of the shiny and new, but you want to know how to pick good ones for the season. Yes, that's right. Like I said, I...

Oh, I have so many backlist books that I want to get to and I'm very distracted throughout the rest of the year with new releases. I always, always, always, always make the same reading resolution at the beginning of the year, which is read more backlist and don't get distracted by new releases. And, you know, because a lot of the time, this is the thing with me, I just want to read all the new releases, even if I don't necessarily think

They're books that I would love, which is fine. I think it's good to read different types of books and I think it's good to read books that you don't necessarily love because you can always learn something there anyway. But...

It does affect the balance of books that I'm reading. So at the start of the year, I'm always like, right, I'm going to be super careful about what new releases I'm going to pick up. And I'm going to really balance that with, you know, a good amount, a good smattering of backlist throughout the year. And yeah, it falls flat. Most times I get to this time of year and I'm like, oh. Well, I'd like to hear more about that. What happens?

I don't do it, Anne. I don't do it. It's ridiculous. I like, honestly, the thing that's funny is that I really agonize over what backlist books to even add to my TBR. I feel like in the backlist department, that's when I'm spending the most time researching and...

reading reviews and trying to think, is this something I even would enjoy? And what's this author about? And all of that kind of stuff. I'd spend a lot of time deep diving into that before adding it to my pile. But with new releases, mate, I walk into a shop and I come out with like six new releases. I don't even know what's happened. It's not good. It's not good. Yeah.

How do you feel about this? Like, do you wish things were different? Are you pretty happy with how it's working out for you? No, I do wish things were different because I want to be a more conscientious reader. You know, like I said before, our time on the planet is limited, so I don't want to spend it

always reading books that are not necessarily going to work for me when there are so many brilliant things that I could be picking up that are in the backlist department and that for some reason just don't hold the same kind of, yeah, shiny new toy feeling that the new releases do. So, and part of the reason for that is because of how high my success rate is

from an enjoyment factor when it comes to backlist. Like maybe because I have done so much research into it, I sort of tend to, I tend to enjoy what I pick up. But yeah, I get very distracted throughout the rest of the year. So when the sort of publishing season picks up again here and probably around the rest of the world, I'm not sure, but let's say March, that's when it all falls over. Okay. Now we're going to talk about your favourites.

And misses, books that missed for you. And as we are exploring how to move forward, I'll be really interested in hearing how different you want the situation to be or not. So that's coming. What do you think? Are you ready to talk about the books you brought today? Yes, I definitely am. Because these have all been really successful books for me in summer, previous summers. So I'm hoping it will sort of remind me of why these books...

I don't know, felt so great in the time that I was reading them and make me excited to sort of pick up more like them maybe in the summer ahead. Okay. I like that way of choosing.

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Speed slower above 40 gig on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. You know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately. And then we'll talk about what you want next in your reading life and what books might fit into those desires. And you chose these because they were successful for you in previous summers.

I'm noticing that word successful. That's not the one a lot of readers reach for. That's interesting. Now, what's the first book that you love that you brought today?

Call Me By Your Name by Andre Aciman. It's such an evocative book. It's set in Italy in the 80s. It's got a really strong sense of time and place. And, you know, it's actually big on vibes, this book. It actually is less about the plot and more about the vibes. It's, you know, about this really intense relationship. So you get those really beautiful feelings coming out. It's beautifully written. There's a lot of

There's a lot of that sense of place in terms of, you know, they're walking, taking walks by the sea and in the woods. And I really love that atmosphere that it brings, both in the emotional atmosphere, but also the physical atmosphere. So I loved that book. And I really specifically remember reading it at the pool a few summers back and just absolutely gobbling it up. It was so good. Is it just pure coincidence that you have your family ties to Italy and this book is very Italy?

No, I don't actually think it is. I love books set in Italy. I love translated books set in Italy. I love like Eleanor Ferrante and, you know, all of those sorts of things. No, I don't think that's a coincidence. It's something I would reach for, for sure. Okay. He has a new memoir out and it is, I'm sorry to say, a new book that came out in the US this fall, but there's a lot of Italy. Yeah.

Okay. That's good to know. Okay. Thanks for telling us about that one. What's the second book you love now? The second book I love is Dirt Music by Tim Winton. Um,

Look, I could have picked any of Tim Winton's books. He is an Australian writer. He's an activist. He's passionate about the environment, the ocean. And that is something that really comes out in all of his work. He writes so passionately about the Australian landscape, which is quite unique, I think, for

I picked Dirt Music because it's got that combination of kind of the desert and the sea in the book. And again, it's just so evocative. And weirdly, now that I think about it, it is also about a very intense relationship between a woman in her 40s and this guy who's a fisherman, a poacher, actually. He's illegally fishing. And so there's lots of drama around that relationship.

And she's already in a relationship with someone else. So the whole thing is super intense. But so is the landscape. This is a really sweeping book in terms of sense of place. And I think that is something he does so beautifully. I am so excited to hear you talk about Tim Winton because...

I haven't read a single one of his books, but Cloud Street specifically has been enthusiastically recommended to me because of what I tend to love by several readers, including some of our What Should I Read Next? alumna guests. And...

I downloaded Cloud Street actually years ago at this point and haven't read yet. Can you sell me harder on Tim Winton? Maybe this winter is my Tim Winton season. Oh, yes. That would be well. We'll certainly transport you to a hot and dry landscape tomorrow.

Oh, he's just, you know, he writes so lushly and vividly about Australia. And I just love that. It's nice to read about your home, especially when you love your home. That passion and that activism that he works so hard at, you know, that really comes out in his books. You can see how much he cares about the place that he lives in. I love that he writes with a sense of Australian-ness. And I don't know how to describe that differently

better other than he, you know, the language that he uses is very Australian and the way he talks about place is very Australian. And I just really love that. And I think it's sort of a unique, unique thing that he does that I think would be great for international readers. If you kind of want to get a sense of what the country is like, I think his books are a great place to start. Amazing. Thank you. I have Cloud Street ready and waiting for me. Nell, what is your final favorite?

American Wife by Curtis Sittenfeld, which I think is a little bit different to the previous two. I really love her books. I want to talk about this one because I think it's a really good example of the type of book that

I perceive would be good for summer because it's kind of got plot but also prose. I'm not really someone in the summer that would reach for a rom-com necessarily or a thriller or something that maybe is typically classed as a beach read. Not that I have anything against those things, but I still want a bit of a meaty book, but I also want it to be quite readable. And I think she does that really well in all her books.

And, you know, I think this one is interesting because it's a little bit of a whole of life book. So you get the main character is Alice and you sort of go back in time to her childhood and right through to her meeting the guy that she ends up marrying who becomes the president of the United States and sort of end with her time in the White House. So I really like that as well. I know it's

based on Laura Bush, honestly, or supposedly based on Laura Bush. That is neither here nor there for me. I didn't really know that much about Laura Bush anyway, because I am Australian, I guess. And it's not something I was, I felt you needed to know anything about. I just enjoyed the story for what it is. But yeah, I think it's just one of those books that's smart and it's fun. It's a bit gossipy, but not too much. It's really readable without sacrificing the great writing, which is important to me.

Now, tell me about a book that was not a good fit for you. And I'd love to hear why. Like, was it not to your taste? Was the timing wrong? Yes. Okay. So the book is Acts of Desperation by Megan Nolan. And

You know, this was a case of the book just actually feeling a bit too close to home for me. The writing is great, but it's actually almost too realistic in the way it portrays a very consuming, very toxic relationship. So the narrator of the book, she falls very deeply in love with this awful person who, you know, kind of reels her in and spits her out pretty brutally, I think. And the

The book, I think, is exploring that fine line between, I guess, desire but then also just misery. Look, I've been there and I think that was partly why I just was so, yeah, I didn't enjoy the reading experience. But I think the thing is about books is that you do bring joy

your own experiences to the text and so for me you know this was just one of those ones that I probably should have known that it wasn't going to work but I it was you know funnily enough this was one that everybody was talking about and I wanted to read it because everybody was talking about it because she was kind of this new Irish writer at the time and I wanted to pick it up but yeah it just it's not that it didn't work for me in terms of I thought the writing was great and

you know, clearly very talented, but yeah, I think. It was a topic that was all wrong. Yes. It was a topic that was all wrong for me. Yeah. And I read her second book and loved it by the way, which was came out recently, Ordinary Human Failings. So she's great, but that there's just some things that I think, you know, yeah, you're bringing your own stuff to it and it doesn't work.

That's helpful. So you've mentioned two of your books portray intense relationships and you enjoy that. I haven't read the Megan Nolan novel, but I've seen this described as an anti-romance and that is not for you. Yeah.

Yeah, not for me. Toxic relationships in books is something I generally do not love. Just purely because, yeah, I think anyone that's kind of been in those situations probably doesn't want to really emotionally go back there if they can avoid it. All right. That pen scratch sound is me making notes. No toxic relationships for Nell. Yes. Nell, what have you been reading lately?

Lately, I have been reading a whole bunch of stuff. I just finished my first Shirley Hazard book, which I was obsessed with. I cannot believe I haven't read her before. Great example of a backlist author that I have not avoided for years, but sort of has mulled in my head for a long time and I just never prioritized.

And then I picked up The Bay of Noon and I loved it. Is it a coincidence that the book is set in Naples, southern Italy? Yes, I loved that. I have been reading some of the books from the Booker Prize long list and short list. I've actually read all of them. I ended up reading the whole Booker Prize long list, which was

Fun. Was that in 2024? Yeah, in 2024. Some landed...

better than others for me. I loved the Tommy Orange book. I loved My Friends by Hisham Maidar. I loved that book. Oh, I've been reading, which was on one of your guides. I think, I can't remember which one, maybe the summer reading guide, Coloured Television by Danzi Sena. Loved that book. That was so great. It was so funny and, you know, so sharp. So yeah, I gobbled that up too.

Now, that's a lovely assortment of books that have really worked for you. Of books that have, is it true they've all been successful? Yes, they've all been successful. Why don't you tell me what makes a read successful in your eyes? I just want to be really engaged with the book. I sort of talk about sometimes when I review books, I'm like, a book made my brain fizz. And I love that feeling of when I...

I'm kind of intellectually stimulated, for lack of a better word. Like I like that feeling, but I'm still emotionally engaged as well. And that for me is a really successful reading experience. I read The Alternatives by Cailin Hughes, the Irish writer, this year, and that is the perfect example of that. It's so smart. It's doing interesting things with form and structure, but at its heart, it's still about four sisters, right?

and, you know, their lives and them trying to come together for a particular, you know, reason. And that is the emotional heart of the book. So those are, that's the combination that I think works best for me. Something that is, yeah, smart and zingy and, you know, yeah, makes my brain fizz, but that still has an emotional resonance. Tell me more about agonizing over backlist selections.

Oh, yes. Why do I agonize? I think because there are so many books in the world and I wish I could get to all of them, but I can't. And so it's just that sense of wanting to make good choices so that you have a really great

reading summer. That is really all it is. I just really want to pick books that are going to be great for my summer reading. You know, I've got time off. It's usually a time of year that I can read loads. Things are a bit slower. You've got time to pick up books. And I can usually get through more reading in the summer than any other time of year. I'm not someone that likes reading in bits. So I'm not somebody, I know some people are really good at taking their books to

appointments and to, you know, in waiting rooms or sitting somewhere waiting for someone and you whip your book out, I'm not good at that at all. If I'm reading, I like to read or my ideal reading circumstances are reading for long chunks of time if I can. So summer is like perfect for that. You know, I love reading books, you know, in a day or a couple of days. Like summer just gives you the opportunity to do that.

I just want to pick the right books or I just want to get excited about the books that I'm about to read. Okay. You want to be excited about it. Let's talk something through. Okay. Even though it feels like so many new books are out and available and ready for us to read, that selection is more limited than our selection of all the backlist titles that have ever been published prior to 2024 stands. Yes. Is there something there?

I'm playing with that versus the wanting to talk to people about the books. Yeah, I think you're maybe right there because I can talk to people about any book is the reality. So, you know, I think it's nice. I like the communal experience about talking about the same book. But at the end of the day, one of the really lovely things about being online in the book world is that you can always talk about books. So I don't really think it's necessarily that. I think the choice just overwhelms me, I guess, with new releases because

Yeah, it is true. There is a set amount of what's being published and a lot of the same books will appear on the same lists and, you know, the same like most anticipated books of 2020, whatever. So you kind of have a very definite sense of maybe what's available to you in that year. But I think with backlist reading, it is a little bit different in that, you know, in the history of time, there have been billions of books published and where do you even start with that?

That's really helpful what you said. So you want to be excited about the book you're going to pick up next.

With a new book, it's easy to be excited because there's buzz. People are talking about it and it feels like there's a reason to read it now. But when you're by yourself looking at your shelves, because you mentioned in your submission you had a ton of books that you were excited about at one point. That's why you had them. And now putting words in your mouth, try this on, see how it feels. You're not not excited about them, but you're not looking at the bookshelf going, oh, yes, that, now. Like that's not the vibe.

So you need a reason to reach for that specific book over the other ones because it's the right book for you right now. Yes, I think that's definitely true. And maybe that's why the summer thing is important because there is a vibe in the summer that I want to match my books to, which maybe is about sense of place or is about space.

smart but readable texts that I can just whiz through because that is a feeling I love in the summer. I'm excited for you. I mean, no.

You can hear yourself. Like, here I am. I'm a reader. I've got time to read. I want to sink into something. What should it be? Yes. What a picture. I'm excited for you. And you need books worthy of your open readerly hands. Yes, that's so true. Worthy is my vibe. Yes, Anne. I love that. Yes. I need to be worthy of me. That's what I need. Let's do this. You ready? Yes, I'm ready.

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And live the Chumba life. Sponsored by Chumba Casino. No purchase necessary. VGW Group. Voidware prohibited by law. 18 plus. Terms and conditions apply. The books you loved were Call Me By Your Name by Andre Aciman, Dirt Music by the Australian gem Tim Winton, and American Wife by Curtis Sittenfeld. Not For You, Acts of Desperation by Megan Nolan. And Anti-Romance is not for you. Not now. Maybe not ever. Not ever.

Maybe. We'll see. Okay. It doesn't matter. We are talking about this summer, not all the summers to come. Yes. And lately, you've been reading a bunch of good stuff that has really ticked all your boxes, including The Bay of Noon by Shirley Hazard. And let me just say, her M.O. was to spend 10 years writing each of her novels. She labored over them. She put them out into the world. She had a long career that didn't generate anything.

an unmanageable body of work. So you could hang out with some Shirley Hazard books for a while. I think she could be worthy of your vibe. We've talked about The Transit of Venus and The Great Fire on this podcast. And when you described it, a book that you find successful, makes your brain fizz, and also keeps you emotionally engaged, I thought, oh, The Transit of Venus. Oh, The Great Fire. Oh, I can see why the Shirley Hazard book, The Bay of Noon, was a fit for you.

Oh, good. Yeah, I definitely want to read more of her now. I was surprised that she had so few novels, actually. I don't know why. I know she was born in Australia, but she lived all over the world. So really more a citizen of the world, I would say. She was a fascinating lady. Yes, so fascinating. And I immediately was like, what else can I read from her? And I was surprised that there wasn't actually that many. But maybe that's good for my choice issues. Well, how many have you read? One. One.

Okay, great. You got nothing but choices. Yeah, that's true. And it surely has her novel could stand up to rereading as well. Oh, I think so. Yeah. If you wanted to start again with The Bay of Noon, like, that doesn't sound that bad. No, definitely not. What do you think about Sarah Winman?

I have read one of her books, the one set in Italy. But I haven't read anything. I don't think I've read anything else by her. It was indeed Still Life that I had in mind. I don't think Tin Man would be a bad pick for you at all. Okay.

So this is the story of two men who at the moment we meet them in the mid-90s, we know that they have history. They've been through some things together. They knew each other when they were young. But life has taken them in different directions and not necessarily the places they wanted to go. The story is melancholy. Oh, I should have told you. It starts in Oxford. Oxford.

Though some scenes take place in London. So we move back and forth in time. It's not a linear story. And we meet these two men and we find out how they ended up where they are. One of them is still grieving the death of his wife five years ago. One of them is caring for a former lover, I think back in London. And he's very ill. And I don't want to give any spoilers there.

But we find out that these two men who are involved in grieving one relationship and in caring for a lover in the present day have a history with each other and that one considers the other the love of his life. And so as the narrative shifts back and forth in time, we learn the secret history of what went on between them and how they ended up where they are now. Yeah.

So this book is very much about love and grief and friendship and loss. There's art woven in, as Sarah Winman also does. How does that sound to you? That sounds so good. I also love the English setting. I have spent a lot of time in London and England in general, and I love books set there. So that sounds great. Okay. I'm glad to hear it. Next, I'm thinking about a book that feels fresh,

that might feel zingy. I wouldn't say it feels summery, but I think it could be really interesting to you and also keep you emotionally engaged. Have you read Whalefall by Elizabeth O'Connor? No, I don't know this book at all. It's a debut. You wouldn't know O'Connor from previous work. It's a short little book. I listened to the audio and it was, I think, barely over three hours. Okay. Slim. Slim.

It's this really interesting little novel set in, I think, 1938, just on the cusp of World War II, on this remote island in, oh, pop quiz, I want to say it's in the British Isles. Maybe it's Welsh. But this island is tiny. It's just three miles long. There's only 12 families who live there. The population is under 50. And our protagonist is this 18-year-old young woman named Mamad. And she knows...

Well, what she knows is that this island is really small and she's grown up her whole life watching not very many people because there aren't very many people, but she's watched people come of age and leave. The women do it by getting married, the men get jobs or go off to school and she wants a way out. So we meet this young woman who's coming of age on this island and she's feeling claustrophobic. So that's an interesting little backdrop.

Into this mix, two things happen. First, a whale washes up on the shore and the people aren't quite sure what to do. It's this brooding presence that happens early enough in the novel that it practically affects the people on the island, but also emotionally permeates the atmosphere of the novel. But also these two anthropologists come to the island and they, I'm not going to say they're up to no good, but they are definitely up to their own purposes.

And they cause some relationship complications on a small level and then on the community level in the island. And also we get to see Mamad see her community through the lens of the anthropologists. And it's clear to her, like, hang on. They have this story they want to tell, but it's not actually the truth.

of the life I know on this island. So we have this young woman coming of age, figuring out who she is, who she wants to be, where she is and where she wants to be in the world. And you know what I didn't tell you? Another layer in this story of complicated relationships, among other things, is we know her mother's missing from the very beginning, but we don't know why. And that also kind of hangs over this story. So I feel like I've parceled out a bunch of plot threads, but this is a very compact book that's

that feels very sure of what it wants to be. And I think you're really going to like the prose. How's this sounding to you? That sounds great as well. And again, I think that British Isle feel would have a very strong sense of place. I imagine there's such, it's such a distinct vibe there. So yeah, that sounds great. And I like that it's got a little bit of mystery without, you know, that being the whole plot of the book, but it's there. So it kind of keeps you reading and turning the pages. That sounds great.

And it's short. I love that. I love to read a book in a day. This is, yes, I love that. If you don't like to read in brief snippets, maybe you could read this in one long one.

Exactly. Yes. That is honestly something that is one of my favorite things to do in the summer, especially you obviously have the time, but yeah, I can literally sit on my couch and read the whole afternoon. Oh, what a treat. I love it. Oh, I love the description of a book in a sitting is a treat. Yes. That makes me want to pour a cup of something. Maybe use something cold, me something hot and go do exactly that. Yes. Okay.

Now, this year you've read the Booker long list. I'm wondering if you did last year because I'd really like to tell you about The House of Doors. Oh, I did read that last year. Was it a good fit for you? Yeah, it was great. Yes, yes. I've read nothing else by that author. I know nothing about him. I think his other work is meant to be great too, but I haven't read it. I have not read anything else by him either. I've heard good things about The Garden of Edening Mists, but I have no personal experience. All right.

Am I allowed to recommend an Australian book to you from my home in Kentucky? Yes, please. Have you read Meg Mason's debut, You Be Mother? I don't think I've read You Be Mother. I've read Sorrow and Bliss. Because that was a big book. That was a big book. I loved it, obviously. That was one that everybody was talking about. Did you enjoy talking about that with your fellow readers? I sure did. Yes, yes. No, that was really good. Yes, no. Okay, let's talk about that.

So this is her first novel. It's called You Be Mother, and the title actually comes from pouring tea, not actually from familial relationships, which is interesting. I thought that was kind of fun when it's explained in the text. But this is another story about an intense relationship, but it's not a romantic one. This

This is about a life-giving friendship between two women of different generations. In this book, oh gosh, it hasn't been that long since I read it, but let me think what happens. So Abby is in the UK. She's a student and she meets and falls in love with this young man. I think his name is Stu, when he spends one semester in the UK away from his Australian home to study.

Then he finishes his semester, he goes back home, and life goes on until Abby finds out she's pregnant.

And what we learn about Abby is she's had a really sad childhood. Her dad and a sibling of hers died many years ago when she was young, and her mother was never able to cope and has effectively, emotionally, and almost physically checked out of her life. Abby mothers her more than the other way around. Abby's, I believe, still a teenager in this book. She's 18 or 19 years old.

She needs her mom, but instead she's playing mom to her mother. Oh, this is interesting. I'm just thinking about the title in a new light. I don't know if there's anything there or not. Okay, I'm going to have to think about that.

But she meets two. She's never had a boyfriend before. She falls in love. She doesn't understand protection. She gets pregnant. And then he goes back to Australia. And she's like, well, I don't know. He has a whole life there. I don't have much of a life here. I'm not really excited about my studies. I don't want to do the thing I'm getting a degree for. I can go to Sydney. It'll be fine. And so that's what she does.

And Stu's like, okay, cool, whatever. I can go with the flow. Sure, come to Australia. We'll have a baby. It'll be great. So she does come to Australia with a baby who is very young at the time she leaves. And poor Abby. Abby has more going on than any young woman should have to handle alone in her life. Because Stu, like, he's there, but, like, he's not the help you would want for this fictional character when you see the circumstances she's in.

So Abby's in Sydney. Stu's no help. Stu's dad is like kind of a nice guy. He's sympathetic to Abby, but his mom is kind of the worst. Makes Abby feel even more alone. Stu's mom is very into the baby, though. Not into Abby at all. But Abby becomes accidental friends with a woman named...

a little older than her mother, who lives nearby. And I don't remember how they meet, but from the beginning, like each season, the other, something that they need. Phil, just her four children, don't let her mother them the way she wants to and the way that she thinks they need to be mothered. And here's Abby, who very clearly needs a lot of mothering and is very happy to receive it. And from Abby's perspective...

She doesn't have any help. She doesn't have any support. She doesn't have anyone to talk to. And she's lonely. And also, she has a baby, and she's never raised a baby before. And she doesn't have peers. She doesn't have friends. She doesn't have a job. She doesn't know what to do. But in steps her neighbor who says, oh, sweetie, let me help. This friendship fills the gap for both of them, and they develop a really important, really powerful bond. Previously, they've been so lonely, and now they have each other. But

Phil does have children and they're getting into trouble and they are not so sure how they feel about their mother's relationship with this young stranger who came from someone else and just had like, what? What? This is weird. They don't understand. This friendship doesn't make any sense to them. And they are skeptical and think Abby's probably up to no good.

And Stu, for his part, thinks, you got me, babe. Why do you need this stranger? Like, what's going on? So both women in their own lives independently are about to be put through the ringer and their relationship is tested as well. And it doesn't come out so great for a while, but this is a story with a happy ending where everyone ends in an okay place.

There is a real bad relationship in here, but it is a subplot. I just want you to know, since you said an anti-romance was not your vibe. Yes, that sounds amazing. I love that it's set in Sydney. What a bonus.

I feel like it's very rare to have books set in Sydney, weirdly. I'm not saying there's none that exist. Obviously there are, but there's a big literary scene in Melbourne. So I feel like a lot of Australian writers and books are kind of coming from a Melbourne perspective. So it's always delightful when Sydney makes an appearance. So good. Well, I'm glad from halfway around the world,

In the U.S., I could deliver up a, what to me was a completely novel Sidney book. You'll be reading it in a whole new way. And I'd love to hear if you found Sidney depicted like the Sidney you know. Yes, definitely. I'm excited. Now, of the books we talked about today, they were Tin Man by Sarah Winman, Whale Fall by Elizabeth O'Connor, and You Be Mother by Meg Mason. Of those titles, what do you think you may pick up next?

I think I'm going to go the Meg Mason because I am excited to read something set in this city that I love. That's really cool. I'm so glad to hear it. I can't wait to hear what you think. Now, this has been a pleasure. Thanks so much for talking books with me today. Well, thank you so much for having me. I've loved it. Really, really appreciate it. Thanks, Anne.

Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Nell today, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Nell on Instagram at Nell Reads Books, and find the full list of titles we talked about today at WhatShouldIREadNextPodcast.com. We hang out on Instagram at WhatShouldIREadNext, where you will find updates for each week's new episode and other readerly inspirations.

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We really value that around here. If you're not just subscribed or following on your favorite podcast platform, it's a quick step that really does make a difference. Thanks to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next is created each week by Will Bogle, Holly Wilkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading. Happy reading, everyone.