Ep 469: Book Club is for discussing, discovering, and dissenting
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I tend to be a bit of a maximalist. I love a good superlative, unlike you, Anne. I know we are on opposite ends of that. I love to say, this is my best book of the year or the best book of the summer. I love to hear your superlatives. I have no problem making statements. I love to say big things like that. Hey, readers. I'm Anne Bogle, and this is What Should I Read Next? Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader. What should I read next?

We don't get bossy on the show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read.

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Thank you so much for watching.

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Readers, we have a special guest for you today. Many of you know Ginger Horton, our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club community manager from her appearances here on the podcast or because you interact with her all the time in Book Club. Today, Ginger is joining me again on the show to talk about her reading life, Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club, and what she's reading these days. Plus, we're answering some of your most frequently asked questions about what exactly it is we do around here.

Something we hear a lot from our listeners is, we know that your book club exists. You talk about it, but like, what do you do?

So today we're going to dive into all things book club, like the nitty gritty details of our approach to choosing the titles, which we have a finely honed philosophy for, to what kinds of books we hear that our readers love the most. Plus, we'll share specific books that really stand out to Ginger from her own book club experience over the years. Plus, some perks that our book club members enjoy, like access to our upcoming summer reading guide and live unboxing experience. And we'll also share some of the things that we've learned from our book club members.

As far as our team is concerned, Summer Reading Guide is right around the corner, and we can't wait to tell you more in the coming weeks and months. But whether you're curious about book club or you're honestly not interested at all, today's episode is for you. We're taking you behind the scenes of our work to share how we decide what to read, what makes a good book club selection in general, anywhere, not just with us, what we love to talk about when it comes to talking about books, and even how to stay in the know about our book club selections, even if you're not a member and never want to be. We're

We're also sharing some of our pie-in-the-sky dreams about what we'd read and who we'd host if money was no object and we controlled time and space. It's going to be a good one. Let's get to it. Ginger, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. You know, it has just been a minute since I've been in this space, but then I think back to how long it took you guys to get me on here in the first place because I was so nervous to ever come on the show. And now it feels like a warm and welcoming space that I just want to be on again and again.

Oh, that is the laugh of recognition. I think it took five years of podcasting before I could stand listening to myself at all. And now it's just another day at the office. But yes, it did. You are one of our longest standing team members. We've been working together since 2016. And you weren't on the show until episode 283. Yeah, it was a holdout. It's

It's a good one. It's called Don't Save the Good Stuff, 283. Go listen. And most recently, you were on the show in episode 456 to talk about... Well, do you want to share what the episode is about? Yes. New England books, because it has been bearing fruit in my reading life ever since. I am so happy to have had that conversation. It spurred me on to some good books, and it spurred me on to a lot of good conversations, because somehow...

in the intervening months, I got the reputation as loving New England books. And so people are constantly pressing them into my hands now, which I am so here for. So thank you, Anne, and thank you, readers.

If you wanted to be on the show yourself, listeners, this could happen to you. What should I read next? Podcast.com slash guest. For New England books, you said, hey, my favorite part of the episode is when Anne diagnoses a reader and says, this is why you love what you love. And that's what we do in that episode. And it's a ton of fun. Ginger, we knew from your first appearance, and I think you knew as well, that we got to keep doing this. So thanks for coming back today. Glad to.

All right. Now, some readers listening now probably feel like they know you, have met you in person at a Modern Mrs. Darcy meetup, but some people are meeting you for the first time. So would you tell us a little about yourself to give our listeners a glimpse of who you are? Yes, I would be so glad to. So my name is Ginger Horton. I'm a

I am living currently in the Washington, D.C. area, specifically in Alexandria, Virginia, with my husband, Matthew, who is an officer in the U.S. Navy. That's what brought us here, but we are so thrilled to be in our nation's capital. It's a really vibrant city with a lot of bookstores, most importantly, a lot of bookstores. But I've been a lifelong reader. I kind of grew up in a family where they're normal readers, like casual, we read a few books.

books a year, maybe one a month. We read some books on vacation, but somehow I got this reading bug that I don't know where it comes from, but just voracious is the only word for it. I think a lot of us will relate. So that means that I didn't always have people in my real life that kind of read an extreme amount and they looked at it as maybe like a cute little weird quirk and

And then I found the Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club and I felt like, oh, these are my people. And now it's not about quantity, of course. I mean, some people read far more than me and it makes me look like...

positively a casual reader myself. But it's about how the reading life kind of impacts every single aspect of our lives from the moment we get up to the moment we get to bed. We're talking about our e-readers. We're talking about our book journals. We're talking about the books we've read themselves and whether we love them. And stars is just like a normal part in our vernacular.

And so being a reader, like a capital R, if you can hear that, is such a part of my life that it feels, it still feels pinched me that this is my job, that I get to wake up in the morning and think about books and talk to readers, talk to fellow book club members that I truly consider my friends. And I've met more and more of them in real life person over the years, but it's still a delight to talk to people on the internet.

I've actually told two people this story in the last week about how I did fall into this work. I'm still kind of new in town. And so I met a couple people this weekend and they were like, what do you do? And tell us what you do and how did you get into that? And the short answer is I was a book club member before I was a T.

member and just was so excited that first summer that you started the Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club to talk to some of my favorite authors still to this day, which I'm going to talk about later on. And yeah, that was kind of the start of everything.

Yes. I think my question on our doc says, tell us how you got this job and why you're perfect for it. Maybe I'm the one to answer that question, but I do want everyone to hear the embedded assumption in there that you're absolutely perfect for what you do. And back in 2016, I opened my inbox and received an application for a job opening we had for Modern Mrs. Darcy.

And we didn't know each other yet, but I read through it and I went, this is uncanny. Like we're about to post this other job. Ginger has no idea we're about to do that. But this is the perfect application for this job that she doesn't even know exists yet. And we actually got to meet in person like almost immediately because you were coming through Louisville. The rest is history. Is the rest history? I'd like to think so.

Yeah. I love that you get to talk about your work and something you love all in the same little package when you're meeting new people in Alexandria, Virginia. That's fun.

There's lots of chances in this town for authors. Sometimes I feel the burden of how... I was in Hawaii most immediately for the past three years, and nobody comes to Hawaii. Now people do on vacation, but no authors, no concerts, no Broadway shows. Nobody's coming out there. It's too far. And here, I think I could go to an author event probably every week. I kid you not. So...

You got to get real choosy with these things. I hear you. Oh, I can't wait to hear what your insights were from being on the other side of the screen. Because as we'll talk about today, Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club, we do have the occasional offline in-person something, but we are very internet on Zoom before the entire world was driven. And I mean, this is what we do. I think we do it really well. And also, I now participate in Zoom events with like my...

you can't unknow what you know, you know? So I'm always thinking about what it's like to put it on and what makes it really good or it's not easy. I mean, I have a lot of respect for all of us who speak publicly at all and conduct these interviews because to have an interesting conversation that's also very hospitable and inclusive for people meeting the book and the community and the author at very different stages of their reading lives and their experience with the individual work. Like there's a lot there. It is.

A hard pivot to your reading life. Okay. So Ginger, now you are in the literary wonderland that is DC. You came not that long ago from Hawaii where you all did your three plus year stint. I don't want to presume that like your reading life has evolved

in step with changes in your own life. But I would love to hear what is your reading life like right now? And if it's evolved or you perceive it to be evolving in the past few years or even like right now, I would be so interested in hearing about that too. For sure. I mean, there are definitely lessons. And one thing that I did learn about being so far flung, geography impacts your reading life. It really does. Time zones are

had a shocking impact on my reading life. And part of that was just because, um, like my family and friends went to bed about three o'clock in my Hawaiian time zone. And so I had this robust afternoon and evening hours where I couldn't talk to anybody. I couldn't

pick up the phone and call my mom. There was no work to be done. Everybody was in bed. And so that was great for my reading life. That was a little less great for my social life, but that's another story. And so now being back here in the time zone that I'm used to has certainly actually made my reading life take a hit. I was telling a team member yesterday, we were chatting about work and I said, I'm actually going to check out for an hour because I used to be really good at three o'clock about stopping and letting myself read for an hour, no matter what. And I don't do that anymore. And I'm trying to recapture that practice.

So things like time zones impact my reading life. In the bigger picture, just being a part of book club, I have really realized that the reading life is not all or nothing. I tend to be a bit of a maximalist. I love a good superlative, unlike you, Anne. I know we are on opposite ends of that. I love to say, this is my best book of the year or the best book of the summer. I love to hear your superlatives. I have no problem making statements. Now, I'm not...

contradict myself next week, but I love to say big, big things like that. But I'm really learning that I can have given a book five stars. It can be a fantastic reading experience for me. And yeah, I can still see the flaws. And I really learned that lesson even just this past month when we read a book that was a five-star read for me. It is still the best thing I've read all year.

And yet people pointed out, hey, this is what frustrated me about it. And I was able to absorb that as being a part of the reading community and see the flaws and reckon with them. Why didn't that bother me? Or, hey, did I just overlook that? Was I not reading closely enough? And realize that a book can still be five stars and there can still be flaws and vice versa. A book can be a two star for me. But wow, that was done really well or that was done, you know, well.

well enough that I can learn something from it. So that's kind of like on the meta scale. And then just in a really practical matter, we just started this new thing this spring and summer called Member Mixers, where we're having three chances for members to get together in small groups every month. And man, has that impacted massively

What I am actually reading. I pulled three different books off my shelves yesterday because I heard about them on Saturday and then we had one yesterday on Monday. Oh my gosh. Okay, I'm so excited. As we're recording, these are just kicking off in MMD Book Club, these member mixers. And we're responding to readers' requests for, hey, like, give us more books.

ways to see the same faces over and over again so that I like know my fellow readers and feel known. So tell us a little bit of what's happening at these member mixers that's impacting your reading life and what you're reading.

Like what happened on Saturday and Monday? Yeah. So we come into a large group for just about five minutes. I tell people how it's going to work and I share the three prompts, which typically Donna from our team has really helped me write and sculpt and edit. And our three prompts this month were, you know, what's the best book that you've read recently, which is awesome.

so much fun to hear from different readers. What is an unputdownable book from recent or lifetime reading? And then we also chat about what have we recently obtained? So you actually got this from the library. You actually bought this at the bookstore. That is so different than what just lands on your TBR. Like what came into your home or what came onto your e-reader? So in those conversations, once we're in those small groups,

I get the benefit of getting to pop into a couple usually during the hour because, you know, when you're the host, you have the power to leave and go. But I have had some of the most fun conversations with book club members who have moved things up my TBR list. Obviously, like I said, there were several books that were sitting on my shelves and I thought, wait,

Why does that sound amazing all of a sudden right this second? So these are bearing a lot of fruit in my reading life. And I hadn't anticipated how much fun it would be to talk to people in such quick succession. Like I saw Mindy twice from Saturday and Monday. And that really cements a readerly friendship, you know, when you're in the same room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I love it. If you're listening and you're thinking, I don't know what you mean to say you're popping into different groups, I want to say one, we will take you by the hand. You don't need to understand anything. It's fine.

And these are very different than our ever popular and extremely well-attended events like our author chats or our book club content classes about how-tos or digging into things like craft where we can't hear you, we can't see you, you can be making dinner, you can be walking the dog, you can do whatever you want and nobody's ever going to know. These member mixers are a little bit different where you're on video and we get to see your face and put your name to your face and we can see a book that you're holding up to tell us about. So

is this a good time to talk about how book club is a buffet? Yes, absolutely. That's a great time because what I was going to say is something like this member mixer or a member meetup, it might ask a little bit more of you as a reader because you've got a common offer yourself and give some thoughtful conversation to what is your unputdownable book that you're bringing. But it also gives so much into your reading life in a way that certainly author chats at classes are

also can. But I think you'll find that when you've spent some time preparing, spent some time reflecting on your own reading life, you come with those prompts, you come willing to share and meet people. Yeah, that really bears fruit in your reading life in a very different way.

Well, here was the behind the scenes in a very different way. Maybe you could hear Anne's introvert nature. Just leap to the fore there and be like, wait, don't worry, everybody. Right. Ginger talked about being on camera. Hold on, hold on. It's fine. That's good. Okay. Well, Ginger, you know what you do here on What Should I Read Next? Guests tell me three books they love, one book they don't, and what they've been reading lately. I thought it would be so fun if you could share three books you love with our audience. Okay.

What do you think? I love this idea. And I think that you'll probably be not surprised, and our audience certainly won't be, to hear that these three have been book club books. I limited myself not just from any books on my bookshelf that I loved, but books that really represent ones that we've read that are standout in book club, but also represent something else that we do here in book club that I really love and value. I can't wait to hear.

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What's the first book you love? Okay, so the first book I love, and I have talked about this before, I think two summers ago on our team's best book of summer, I shared that I loved Olympus, Texas by Stacey Swan. And I have since read that twice. I still love it. It is a standout example of Paige Turner, but also very literary, great writing, family saga, drama, tons of characters on the page. This is just...

firmly in my sweet spot as a reader. But what I really love about this book is that it represents a class that we taught very recently in book club on Greek mythology. So I've had this on the brain, oh goodness, for ages, mainly because book club members kept saying, we want a class on Greek mythology. And we finally delivered that this past fall.

But also, I was just reading the introduction for our March flight selection, Spoon River Anthology. This is the flight pick that we're reading currently as we speak in March of 2025. And I was really surprised to learn that Edgar Lee Masters had studied Greek

And the Greek classics. And then I thought, well, of course, of course, these are epitaphs. This whole book is written in poetry, and you can almost sort of hear the Greek chorus surrounding his work. And so the class, let's talk about Greek mythology for readers. And

Olympus, Texas, sort of all the conversations that came out this past fall are still bearing fruit in my reading life in that we see it everywhere now. You know, when we've looked at a certain topic in book club, then you start to really see, oh yeah, humor is everywhere. That rule of threes that Amy Popel told us about in our conversation on humor in writing is

Now that jumps out to me everywhere. Greek mythology. Oh, wow. I see it here and there and everywhere. And I think I'm even going to talk about that again later in this hour, too. You know, my MO is to repeat for emphasis the things I feel really strongly about or love a ton. So that's right. I love it. It's on the brain. And so I've I've really just been thinking about how much those classes have taught me.

And then in addition to that one that was a little bit maybe more nerdy, we also have classes on the reading life. And so another category of class that I really love that I'm thinking of is maybe...

gently, if not book bossy, maybe book suggestive, where we challenge a common reader perspective, where we hear people say, oh, I cannot DNF, or I cannot do not finish a book. And we've made a case for abandoning books in our book school a few years back. We had a conversation on rereading that I really did hear from book club members that that made them, or maybe it gave them permission to revisit books. There are so many new books in the world. Why would I

reread. We have a gentle conversation and maybe convincing if you allow us to

why would you want to do that? What would that bear out in your reading life? What would that look like? And of course, my personal favorite, the how and why to write in your books, which is sometimes very controversial for a courtly book lover who likes to keep a pristine copy. I, you know, made the case for writing in your books will help with reading retention and so many other things. I'm not going to go through all the hows and whys, but that's been one of my favorites. Oh, but you got them. I got, if you can be convinced. And they're in that class. I will try.

Yeah. I would say our general MMD book club philosophy is live and let live. And also, here's something to think about. Here's just something to think, you know, do with this what you will. But we don't want you to miss out on something in your reading life just because it had simply never occurred to you. Because that happens to me so often. Like, it just never occurs to me to, like, take notes in my books in, like, some of the ways that you shared in that class.

It wasn't like I made a conscious decision. I just never thought about it. And so in book club, I feel like, especially in our classes, we're just saying like, hey, here's something to think about. Maybe you'll take it. Maybe you'll leave it. Maybe it'll give you fresh insight into your reading life that we didn't say directly, but that's where your train of thought took you. But we just want to explore the interesting possibilities.

This is kind of back again to what you just said, that book club is a buffet. And so when I go to a buffet, I'm not picking up every single thing. I'm looking around, finding the things that appeal to me the most and hopefully, you know, taking those in and hopefully they're providing some good nourishment to really carry on that metaphor a little too far.

Well, I mean, I think of What Should I Read Next is a different incarnation of very much the same idea. Every week when we talk about books, we're definitely not saying, hey, everybody should read this. We're just saying, hey.

Here's some things to think about. Here's some titles to think about. Here's why it might work for you. Here's why it might not. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Olympus, Texas is book one. What's the second book you love? So for this one, I am going way, way back. Love it. I was thinking about what books represent the conversation aspect. So in book club, we often say we have classes, community, and conversation. And I thought, what books have been my favorite author chats of all time? And I thought,

Most recently, I can't get Charmaine Wilkerson off the brain. I already mentioned Good Dirt is the best thing I've read this year. I immediately chased that with her first book, Black Cake, because I had never gotten around to reading that. That's exactly what I did. That is the second best thing I've read all year. So Charmaine Wilkerson is really killing it in my reading life.

Her voice alone was lovely, by the way. She read to us. And authors don't do this real often, but when they do, we kind of all fall silent. In book club, there's this real treat aspect to it, like you're sitting in that elementary school classroom and your favorite teacher is reading to you. William K. Kruger did that a few years ago. Chris Batchelder and Jennifer Heibel did that for us pretty recently back in the fall. They gave us this dramatic reading of Day's work. It was amazing. Oh, yeah. I didn't know that's what I wanted or needed, but that was

I just sort of exhale. I swear my blood pressure comes down like 15 points. I don't even know if that's the right amount of points, but it comes down whenever an author just reads to you. And so then, of course, I was racking my brain. There were also authors that have brought a show and tell. Jennifer Robson with her Queen Elizabeth Lace and Terry Jones, who was just like a bucket list author for me. I'm a completist. I'm obsessed. I write every single thing she's written. When she showed us her

typewriter, her cherry red typewriter that she actually writes on. I was kind of swooning. Okay. Some other like standout examples, Frederick Bachman calling in from our car when he was like rushing from one appearance to another in the rain. There are just so many book club memories. Okay. So I was racking my brain for all of these, but I think the people in book club are not going to be at all surprised to hear me say that.

I just don't know that I'm going to ever get over Chris Cleave. Sure. Part of it is that he was early days and that was part of that original summer of book club. But when he talked with us about, and here's the book, drum roll, please. Everyone brave is forgiven. When he talked with us about that, it added to the enjoyment of the book. The novel itself was great. If I had read that on my bed in the middle of the summer, that would have been just fine. No conversation surrounding it. It was a wonderful reading experience.

But when he came to book club and told us how he had set himself on the war rations to really experience what the characters had experienced, when he mentioned that he wrote the book kind of in linear fashion, wrote all the sections out, and then he just randomly shuffled some because, hey, that's how chaos of war happens. Sometimes an unexpected thing happens at an unexpected time.

that added to the reading experience. So the conversation and the book now just to me go hand in hand. I almost can't separate that out when I look at that on my shelf. Chris Cleave, that experience, you know, the conversations we had that first summer, it's all tied into me. And so that's really special in a way that it might be unrivaled for me.

I'm sitting here with an enormous smile on my face. Also, I will never forget reading about him describing a character tasting jam for the first time in a long time because of the war rations or his description of putting himself on the war rations and then what it felt like to eat the jam after so long of plain beige foods and not very much of them. And if you're in book club and you have not watched that one, you know, as soon as this episode ends,

Please get to it because it's there for you. As all our author talks are, they're all recorded and they're on the website for you. Okay. You know whenever you talk about how wonderful that author talk was with Chris Cleave, you know my part that I play to say next. Where is his next book? I Google him all the time to make sure. Chris Cleave, are you okay? He told us at the time in 2017 that he was working on a sequel called Everything Sad is Forgotten, working title. And I just want to know that he's okay and that he's still writing. I know. Me too. Listeners, if you know...

Give us your Chris Cleave updates and comments. Yes, that he is one of many authors that I sort of find myself Googling once a month. Hey, where's Donna Tartt's next book? Where is Chris Cleave's next book? Just you sort of go in that cycle every month or so. And I can't wait for it. Whenever you write it, Chris, we will be reading. Indeed. Ginger, that was Everyone Brave is Forgiven for the second book you love. What's the third book?

lovely war. And this is by Julia Barry. This is one that I would say is kind of defies description. It's not even typically what we read, not that we have never partaken in YA, but this was a YA book. A lot of people mentioned how great it was on audio. So several of us listened to it in that format. And this was kind of a...

It was a retelling of a wartime love story, but there were also these characters that kept inserting themselves in the story, and those characters were also based on Greek mythology. And so that might have even been the genesis of everybody's interest in Greek mythology. But the structure was so unusual. The pacing was so unusual. The writing was so fine. Our conversation, again, with Julia Barry was wonderful.

wonderful. But what I really loved was the community aspect of that. So because of this, what happens from time to time is when enough book club members go, hey, I would also like to read such and such. I've always been meaning to read this book. Would you guys want to come along with me and read that book? Sometimes these pop up and we call them community picks. And so in conjunction with Lovely War, lots of us happen to read The Odyssey about the same time

And this felt like a masterclass. I have never read with such a smart group of readers picking up on all the illusions and the themes that I would have never seen on my own. So

As much as I want to be a nerd and see every little thing and write my books, I have one set of eyes, right? And so when I hop onto our forums and get this perspective for somebody else, someone else saw that this eye was a motif that was repeating itself again and again. Oh, the name of this character meant that.

all of these rich layers kind of started falling on top of each other and creating an even richer experience. It just felt like this layered cake that was all the more delicious for everybody's ingredients and everybody's kind of throwing their two cents in. So that was a really special experience to me and an unusual one at that.

Oh, thank you for telling us about that. And this is the kind of thing where if you're a book clubber and you read in our group chat or in our app that this is happening, you can jump in if it feels good to you and keep on about your reading life if it doesn't. Also about Lovely War, I want to say that this is one of those books that we heard so often. I never would have read that if it hadn't been a book club selection, but I did read it and I loved it. And I think that is... I mean...

Is there better feedback? It's a good compliment. I can't think of anything that tops that. That's right. That's right. And I also really value how when you're talking about books in depth, first of all, Ginger, I realized just getting ready for this conversation that, oh, I say all the time that I write to figure out what I think. I also talk about books to figure out what I enjoy and why and what it means and what I don't. Or to think, you know, something wasn't quite hitting right about this with me, right?

But I'm not sure why. But in talking it through, I can articulate that. And that's really powerful information to have about yourself, especially if you're a reader who's going to keep reading books and thinking about them and incorporating them into your reading life and the rest of your life. And also, I'm so grateful for the many good books I never would have found if they weren't mentioned to me by the right reader at the right time in the book club context with a

this book really reminded me of another book that I adored. Or this book made me think about themes of X, Y, and Z, which are themes I love to read about. I'm so grateful for those as well. Wow, that got a little gushy. Ginger, have we read any titles in book club that you have really not loved? Something that hasn't been for you for whatever reason. Okay. I don't think I've ever told you this, Anne. So you're hearing this for the first time now. I know. You made me wait for live audio. I'm ready. I want to hear it. There's probably...

Thank you so much for joining us.

on the list of book club books. It's towards the bottom for me, but I know why. And it actually gave me a huge amount of insight into my reading life. And so I need to jump in and say, first of all, I can live with that. And I'm so interested. Let's hear. Also, I have some theories. Okay. Oh, now I kind of almost want to hear yours before I tell you mine.

Oh, well, one, we didn't talk to Maggie. You know what? It doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't hurt when an author comes on because I read in a different way and they often make you think about it in a different way. And two, I wonder if it might have something to do with that book being told by a wide variety of narrators and it's super nonlinear. Yes, yes. I think that certainly played a part and especially because this is my working theory.

I listen to this in audio and I don't always do that. I do from time to time, but I learned really from that book because it sort of felt like the kind of book I could have, would have, should have liked. And yet I was never excited to pick it up and I read it and I could tell it was great. There's a few scenes that I do still think about to this day. Great writing, excellent characterization. It had some things going for it.

But I don't think that I take in books on audio in the same way. My brain does not receive that information. The structure is not as neat and clear to me, which is something that I really value is to be able to sort of get a picture of what I'm reading. And so from that, I really abandoned reading fiction on audio, not completely, but as a general rule. And I know that's not the same experience for every reader. In fact, Anne, I think you've said almost the opposite, that you...

often seek out fiction in audio because your brain can follow the story better, if I remember correctly. Yeah, that's true. Like prescriptive nonfiction is not something I enjoy reading in audio. Like I want to see it in print. I want to see the bullet points. But like a good introspective literary novel is

I'd love to read that. This is where it's so important. Yeah, to know yourself. I'm not sure how the Maggie O'Farrell would be. Also, I want to say that you and I have discussed recently that we really want to have Maggie in books. Yes. We're on a first name basis, clearly. Right. And I would reread something if she would come talk to us about This Must Be the Place. But I also feel like it's time for her to have another book. Like, this is not demanding. Yeah. This is hope. Hope, eagerness, love.

Ah, just like perspective delight. I love her work so much. I'd love to read more of it. Yes, exactly. I would read this again for that reason because it was fine enough that I think I could get another reading experience out of it. But I really learned from that. Hey, don't read fiction on audio, especially not for book club because I really need my pen in hand. I really need to write a cue in the margins of any possible discussion questions.

I need that experience. And so while that one wasn't particularly for me, I think a lot of that was how I chose to take that one in. And it was long enough that I didn't want to then go back and reread it, at least not in a month's time. So I would love that experience to maybe get to read her again in the future. Well, I appreciate you sharing that. And also something that I love about book club is we're not just like a raw, raw society. Like we believe that

Genuinely, honestly, kindly, thoughtfully engaging with your own reading experience and discussing that respectfully, graciously, but forthrightly with other readers is how you learn, how you deepen your experience. That's really valuable. And I appreciate how you are modeling that here.

Absolutely. Yes, we definitely talk a lot about valuing our dissenters forum. In fact, I mentioned good dirt that I loved and how readers pointed out some things that did not work for them in that storyline. And it made me experience that book in a richer way.

and I think it makes me a better reader overall. So we encourage those. And again, we have a community agreement, so no one goes too far afield. I have very rarely, if ever, seen a comment from a community member that goes too far. And there's just a really nice way that we can talk about books, whether we love them or we did not love them. We do always have a

healthy conversation in the dissenters forum. And that's not a phrase you and I came up with. That's something that our book clubbers self-generated. And I'm just realizing as we're talking about this, that's because they feel like there's so much praise about the book. So much like, oh, I'm so glad I picked this up. This is what I learned. This is why I loved it. And so those who...

found like, you know, this really wasn't for me. Let's talk about why. You're never alone because it's never just you in the reader's life. But I'm just noticing how like it's been like self-proclaimed the center's form because it is a minority. And also I think those voices are so important because we're just like, oh, this is great. Yay. Like what is there to talk about? What do we learn? And I'm grateful. I'm grateful for that. Me too.

Even recently, as far as last summer, my very favorite book that we read last year for Book Club in 2024, I said to Bridget, our team member, I said, oh, I don't know how anybody's not going to like this book. There is not going to be a dissenter thread this time. I should know better. And she so quickly corrected me and she said, oh, I can see what people wouldn't like. And she told me the exact thing. And sure enough, that popped in the dissenters forum. And what I loved about that is it had not occurred to me that something that I loved

was not a universal reading experience, which is Groundhog Day kind of stories. If you tell me the same story over and over and over from a slightly different perspective, I love the diamondy, facety version of that. And I did not know that that is very specific to my reading life. Now, it is a common thing. Which is so valuable. Like, you might not even know that that's something you like, but like your brain finds that kind of thing really yummy. It did. And I seek those out

out now. Exactly. So I couldn't have, I could not have even realized that about myself had it not been for someone going. I just read a summer reading guidebook that's for you. Yes. This is good news. We'll continue this conversation. Perfect. Ginger, we have received a lot of questions over time from readers who want to know how stuff works. Can we get into it? Oh, we're happy to share. Yes. This is a really fun topic of conversation.

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discussability and discoverability are two big factors that are our, I don't think it's going so far to say guiding lights. Because the book that just leaves us saying like, oh, that was good. That was nice. I liked it. Yeah. You got to have something to talk about. You really don't want a steady string of three stars. You kind of want something that

might be a five star or might be a one star for people, but you want something to talk about for sure. So sometimes a bad ending is a great. Maybe a three star too. I'm going to need to sit with that one star idea. Well, yeah, I don't think we endeavor to pick one star books, but I'm sure that there's been a few tucked amongst there, at least for certain readers. I'm trying to think now, of course, you see my mind like going through the book library. Yeah, you're scanning all the various possible permutations. Exactly, exactly. Like in that 2024 paper. I can

Let me give a few. Now one just popped into my head. But what we are after is sort of a broadly popular book. We definitely don't want something that the majority of our people are going to hate. That's not so much fun. And by popular, we don't mean TikTok. No. We mean...

Appreciatable. Is that a word? Appeal. You know what I mean? Yes, exactly. We want it to have appeal. Broad potential for connection, even if it's not something that you've even heard of before we're sharing it with you, that this is our pick. That's right. And, you know, something else that I think a lot about is that I've mentioned in the public

you know, here or somewhere that I'm a slow reader. So I'm often going to read this quite slowly over the course of a month. And you want that to be something that you're just looking forward to reading. But you often read a book twice because you have sometimes read it before we start the conversation. Maybe you suggest it to me. We're talking about what to read. And then you often read it a second time. And so I always read them twice. Do you always read them twice? Every time. I mean, we want it to be something

that you're not dreading reading again. You know, that's just a pragmatic consideration. Yeah. If I don't want to read it twice, we're not reading it in book club. Exactly. That says something good about a book. If it's the kind of book that a reader would want to read twice, there's really something valuable there to find, hopefully. Yeah. And like the three times to choose would be because, I mean, like I am a rereader. I've read This Must Be the Place half a dozen times or maybe more like seven or eight. But

Oftentimes, like Ginger or I will have read a book years ago and remember really liking it, but we weren't reading through the lens of would this be a good book club selection? So like I'll often read it just before to say like, yes, this feels good for 2025 book. And then I always read it again one more time. So it's extremely fresh right before we host the author for conversation. If that's happening, which does what, like 86% of the time? Yeah.

Yeah, probably something like that. I realized that was not very definitive. I was trying to think of the exact percentage. But yeah, I've never run those numbers. Yes, that happens frequently. So other factors for how we choose. We think about mood.

We think a lot about seasonality. Like some books could be read anytime, but I know you and I have conversations recently in the spring where we've said, ooh, you know, I love that for fall. We keep thinking we want to do something for Victober, like Victorian October reading. We've been talking about this for years and we haven't yet, but maybe this fall we will. We have some books on our potential list. Yep.

That's right. Also, just pragmatic considerations like, is it still in print? We have come at least to one book that one time during the paper shortage, we just couldn't get enough copies of, we didn't think, to sort of spread around our book club. Yeah, we don't want to force people to e-readers or to rely on... I mean, we love the library. Library availability is also a factor. Is this broadly available? And is the waiting list 300 copies deep? That matters. But

Also, like, yeah, during the paper shortage, the publishers just weren't printing copies of this new paperback release. And we didn't feel like we could do that. Luckily, that's, I mean, knock on something, but that's not been a big restraint over the past year. Stuff like that. Release dates, availability. We do keep those things in mind. Mm-hmm.

International rights. Like if you're one of our readers in Germany, can you get the book without needing to order it internationally? Which we don't want to make it hard for you. We want to make it easy for our readers to get the books and for it not to be budget busting.

There's more things to say, but it gets so granular and more specific. Like, where's your head going? Well, like I was thinking about the very recent time where I said, we have to read this in book club. And then Bridget said, Ginger, do you remember that the book starts off with this certain plot point? And I said, no, I did not remember that. Please, let's not read that in book club because I don't want to revisit that on the page.

But that's why we always reread if it's something that we haven't read with book club in mind. Because it's interesting what like I remember and forget as a reader. I may like forget the actual ending or I may forget the opening scene or...

That's real. Yeah, that's exactly right. Actually, you know what? I haven't always read each book immediately before choosing it for sure as a book club pick. And that's one of the reasons I do now is a couple of times I've gone to read it in sync with book club and been like, oh, I think this is fine. I think this is fine. And also, I wish I had remembered. But that's been the policy since probably our first book.

10 books. I hear that. And now we're on, oh gosh, how many books have we read together? You know, I counted sometime last year and it was over 50. So I would assume now we're probably over 60 and even approaching nearing 70 as we come into 2025. 2016, almost once a month. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Lots of books. Ginger.

The readers are interested in our process for talking about books. So we talked about how we're choosing them. We're looking for discussability and discoverability. And then how do we shape our conversation? You know, we haven't talked at all about the forums. We've referred to our author chats a few times.

Yes. These are actually probably my favorite parts of book club. It's certainly my favorite part of my own job, which is that we, Anne and I craft along with the team as well, a lot of input there, but we create our own discussion questions. So if you've got a copy of a book and it's got, you know, reader guide in the back, those are great. Those are often really, really good, but we actually create our own custom questions for the book

club. And that's not only my favorite part of my month when Ann and I are really forming and shaping those for our community.

I've learned a lot about what to look for in a book. Anne has taught me to avoid why questions and instead use how. We're not looking at questions that would give you like a yes or no. Nobody wants a pop quiz in book club. You want questions that will help you to think more deeply about the book. And so that's one of my favorite parts of the work. And it's certainly my favorite part of book club because the first day of the month, we open up those new forums and we're kind of off to the races. I love to see how...

the chatter gets going right away. And some people read the book before the month starts, and then some people are going to be reading it throughout the month. Some people want to read it right before we talk to that author or we have our live book discussion. But I love seeing how the conversation unfolds around those questions, but also members are free to pose their own topics of discussion and very often do. Like we start the conversation, but it usually goes in all kinds of new and surprising ways. And

So that's for sure. I can't believe we haven't talked about the forums because that's for sure my favorite part of book club is just talking about the book all month long. So this is not the book club that you just sit around and, you know, eat your snacks and drink your wine as fun and charming as that is. We talk about the book. I can assure you if that is what you're looking for in a book club experience, it happens in the Modern Mrs. Darcy book club. I can tell you that.

A hundred percent to what you just said about the discussion. And also, Book Club is a buffet. We have a fair percentage of readers, I think it's 20-something percent according to our survey, who often don't read the books in any given month. And it's up to you. That's totally fine. Either they're busy, they don't want to read it for whatever reason. We always share content warnings when we talk about what we're reading. Or life...

does not make that a priority right now. Sometimes our book lovers will attend the author chat and will decide then. Actually, usually what they decide after the author chat is, oh, I want to read that after all. But I do love our forums. And also there's plenty in book club, even if you never read one of our monthly selections. That's so true. Yeah. We've already mentioned, you know, classes and member mixers and yeah, you could absolutely come and be a part. And yeah,

Read everything but the main selections, probably, and still have plenty to keep you busy. Yeah. Because in book club, I mean, sometimes we say we're reading better together, which I kind of love, and it's kind of rhymey, which is fun. But also, I'm a little afraid that sounds too, like, academic and report card-y. What we really believe happens in book club is...

your reading becomes more fun, more communal, and more rewarding. And that is something you can experience through the lens of reading our monthly selections in sync with other readers. But there's lots more ways to do that in book club to enjoy those same three things, like more fun, more communal, more rewarding. And that isn't just your book club reading, but all of your reading because of what you're carrying away. Mm-hmm.

You know, we've mentioned this before that reading is such a personal thing, but it's also a social thing. And that's one of the things that I love about reading is that it's so specific to me. And yet, you know, you're never alone. Just like you mentioned, if you are at a center, you're probably not alone in that. If you are a lover, oh, it's so much fun to find the joy of another book person who has also adored a book that you adore.

We hear from our book lovers that it's for readers who want community, who might not have people who love books as much as they do in their lives right now. For people who want to talk about books, for people who want accountability, and also just like the intellectual stimulation juiciness of getting like really granular about the symbolism in something. Like if you think that is good nerdy fun, you will feel at home here.

And, you know, one other thing that occurs to me that I've heard really recently, especially with these member mixers in my mind, is how many people have said, just like you mentioned with Lovely War, I would have never found that if not for this club. And so whenever you are in conversation with a wide variety of readers, there are going to be books that just don't come across your path from the algorithms and you just need that personal recommendation. There was a book that one reader mentioned yesterday.

I had not only never heard of it, I never would have picked up a book that met this description, but she made it sound so good. I thought, I'm going to give that a try. Now I'm going to give it a try at the library. I'm not going to spend my hard-earned dollars on that, but I'm going to give that one a try. And it's outside of my wheelhouse. I would have never taken a chance on that book if it weren't for a real life reader, kind of figuratively, virtually putting that in my hands.

I hear you. And we also know that some readers join us for certain seasons and then leave. Like we have a lot of students and teachers who join us for the winter and the summer. If summer reading season sounds good to you, you would not be alone if you joined us for May, June, July, and August, and then got back to doing the work of your life or your profession in the fall. And so we definitely are aware of that and try to honor that in the rhythms of our calendar and make it easy to jump in.

And also, we really do a tonal shift in September, which, I mean, I know some teachers are sorry to leave behind, but we do really try to make that easy for our readers. Yeah.

Ginger, like we haven't heard this from our book lovers. I just thought it would be fun to hear. What would we choose to read if there were zero obstacles? You and I have talked about this a little bit. Like, oh, could we get so-and-so? No. But I guess first we should talk about the obstacles. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Money is an obstacle. Yeah.

We do pay our authors for their appearances in book club. And our history there is we used to choose nice, thoughtful gifts tailored to what we know the author is interested in. But now we pay an honorarium as a thank you. It's a three-figure honorarium, mid threes. And

We just want to honor the fact that like it takes time and work and work away from the business of your writing life to come talk to us in book clubs. So that's how we say, you know, thank you for their time and their thoughtfulness with us.

Actually, we haven't talked about Patreon at all today because the question we get a lot is what is the difference between Patreon and book club? And Ginger and I recorded an episode a year and a half ago in Patreon about that. It's unlocked and available for listening. We will put that in show notes. But Patreon for What Should I Read Next is our counterpart community to Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club. It's very audio forward. The big repeating thing we do is we

bonus episodes every Friday. And we have about five different kinds that we rotate through. We have ones that are very focused on sharing books on a theme. Like Ginger mentioned, New England books. So that's an example of a kind of book. Shannon and I have talked about the books we talk about in therapy. Summer Reading Guide is coming. So I'll definitely do one that's on books published during the Summer Reading Guide window that for various reasons that I'll talk about are not in the Summer Readings.

So we have themed book episodes, mini matchmaking, industry insights, one great book, and the occasional fun wildcard episode like our upcoming Ask Us Anything that we're doing later in March.

But those Industry Insights episodes are designed to shed light on some aspect of the reading life that is impacting you as a reader moving through a certain literary landscape, whether you know it or not. And so I try to bring those invisible things to the surface because it's good nerdy fun. And also when you understand the water you're swimming in, it changes sometimes how you think about things, how you choose to...

Be a reader in this world. But I will have just talked about book tours when this conversation with Ginger airs. And something I talk about is book tour math and the difference between authors going on tour to promote their work and the much smaller group of authors who get paid big bucks to appear and speak about their works on a regular basis, not just because they have a new book out.

So sometimes money is an obstacle. Like we may really want to talk to, say, N.K. Jemisin, but I mean, she's got a MacArthur Genius Grant. She's probably working on something that's going to make it tricky time-wise and definitely money-wise for us to come visit us in book club. We've been really excited about hosting some authors and then found out that their speaking fee is $15,000. That's not our budget. I'm sure they're worth that, but that's not our budget. Oh, yeah. I'm sure they're worth that. And that is not our budget.

Sometimes jobs and doing the work is an obstacle. I don't want to share like private emails out loud on the podcast, but there are authors that we've been so excited that we thought we were going to get to talk to and then found out like, oh, actually they have a professorship and they can't come talk to us during that time. The obligations they already have are too much. Or some authors are like, I would love to, but I'm working on a new book and I cannot talk about my old book right now. It messes with my head.

Maybe when I turned it in in a year and a half, that would be a good time. So we just make little note to follow back. And we're never too mad about hearing an author is hard at work on a book. So, you know, we'll leave you be. Oh, yeah. A hundred percent respect. But also like we're talking about, I mean, we don't just read whatever it occurs to us to read, whatever we think would be great for conversation. Now we can sometimes if we decide it's cool not to have an author talk. Yeah.

We've actually done that on purpose. Certainly, we read authors who have passed on. And sometimes what we've done is had our own internal book club discussion, like Shannon and I did a class of sorts, but more than a live book discussion, less than a class, because we are just lay lovers of Octavia Butler a couple of years ago. We've had experts on for Austin in August, like Devani Lozer, who talked with us about Jane Austen. So sometimes we will sort of get around and

an author that has passed on and obviously we can't talk about, but those are the ones that we dream about. Oh, oh, that we could talk with Julia Child or, oh, Robert Gottlieb got away from us too soon. I hear you. Oh, I'd love to talk to Louise Erdrich. I know there are a few screenwriters we've really wanted to talk to that we haven't caught between projects. If you controlled time and space, who would be top of your list?

I was kind of making this dream list in my head because you mentioned that we might talk about this today. And I thought, wait, why can't we talk about, we can talk to Amor Towles, who we haven't, but we've read, Ann Patchett, who we haven't had, but we've read, Bess Kalb. I love her. And I think she'd be such a hoot to talk about. She's sort of a writer in the humor space, but with a lot of heart. Karen Joy Fowler. Oh my goodness. Such an

underrated writer, in my opinion. I felt so vindicated when she won a big prize because I had been putting the Jane Austen book club into people's hands for years and years and years and often got, I guess, remarks of surprise that it sounded like it was kind of a light, fluffy title. But there is quite a bit of literary heft behind her, I think. So yeah, once I was making that dream list, I thought, wait, well, why can't we talk to these? Maybe we can someday.

Oh, it feels so good to see the authors that you adore having good things to come to them, to have their work recognized. Absolutely. On a wider scale. I love that. Okay. Another question we get a lot is how do I try out book club?

If I'm interested, but I'm not real sure, what do I do? Yes. Okay. So we make it pretty easy because you can choose one month, three months, or if you know that you're all in, you could absolutely sign up for an annual membership, which the longer you go, of course, we provide a little bit of savings because we want you to be a part for as long as you can. But the easiest thing to do would be to go to the site members.modernmrsdarcy.com and

and pick whichever option suits you. So I would suggest maybe start out for a month or a quarter and just jump right in. So what you'll get from us the minute you sign up, it's just like anything, you put your name and pick a username and put your email address in, and then you'll get a sequence of emails that will walk you through

how to upload a profile photo, where to maybe chime in, what to chime in right at first. So we'll walk you through everything. Links are going to come right into your inbox. Here is where to come for this author talk. Like you don't really have to go out there and search out anything. We're going to communicate with you. And one of my favorite things that we started even the last year and a half are these Sunday dispatches. So me or another member of our book club team

usually Bridget or Shannon or Anne writes a Sunday newsletter with kind of our favorite things that have happened around the book club. So if you are new to book club, and that first Sunday, you get that Sunday dispatch, it's going to tell you about upcoming events, it's going to tell you about some of our favorite chatter that's happening in those forums, we usually call out a book clubber or two that has been sharing what they're reading that week. Sometimes we'll give a personal note like a movie or a show and adaptation or a book that's on

our own nightstand. And so that's a great place to jump in as well. We also have an app. And so if you want to use social media less, see me raising my hand here. You can't see it, but I am. You can put that on your home screen. And that muscle memory is strong, y'all. Once I have had that app downloaded for the last year or plus,

It's amazing how often my finger hits that instead of other places I'm trying to spend less time on. And so we make it easy that way. So website, email, app, hopefully whatever is convenient for you, however you like to participate, then you can find book club in all those spaces.

Yes, and we think that now is a great time to give it a try. Lots of people will join in May just before Summer Reading Guide, and we find that, I mean, it's not hard to get oriented, but we'd really encourage you to join now or in April because then you will be oriented. We encourage you to come to an author chat or a class or some kind of event so you can see what it feels like so that Summer Reading Guide and unboxing are not your first experience. They're many people's first experience, and that's fine because

but we think you'll enjoy it more and get more out of Summer Reading Guide if you do that sooner. Lots of people ask, like, could we do a free trial? Could we do a discount? We do not historically do that. We don't have plans to do that in the future. And the reason is largely logistics and about our small team. Those are a lot of work to implement on the back end, and we have chosen to prioritize that.

doing a really great job on the actual work instead of marketing the work. That is just a priority choice we have made in our space for our small team. And I did want you to know, like if you're... Sometimes I'll resist purchasing like a new shirt because I want to see if there's going to be a coupon code or there's going to be a sale.

we don't have plans for that happening. So maybe that would be helpful to know. And also if you do come in and you find out that it's not for you, that's why I would encourage, you know, a monthly or quarterly. If you find out it's not for you over the course of a few months,

nothing is for every reader and nothing is for every season. And so you make it easily to just hop on out. We leave your account up and you can cancel your membership. And so if you are one of those people who goes, hey, that was really fun for the summer, but I got to pop out. I'm starting school or I've got responsibilities elsewhere. You can pop in and out as you see fit. But right now in book club, we have people who've been with us

uh non-stop since 2016 and people who joined like yesterday that's right and everywhere in between another question we get a lot is how can i know what book club is reading i want to know what the books are before i join i want to know the like tone and feel or just i don't want to join i just want to know the books well our selections are not a secret

secret. If you want to follow along and know what we're choosing, you can do that. We have just started announcing each month's book in our Friday Links I Love posts on Modern Mrs. Darcy. If you're not signed up for our newsletter, sign up for that at modernmrsdarcy.com slash subscribe because that's many people's favorite thing they get from us every week.

But at the beginning of the month, we will share what the book is. Like in March, we're reading How to Read a Book by Monica Wood. We just introduced that in Links I Love. Also, not as reliable, but on Instagram, we are there at MMDBookClub. Ginger runs that account and she always shares our book of the month there as well.

I should say that I love those links. I love post on Friday. That is the first thing that I click on on Friday. And the first thing I click on Monday is the good ebook deals. And so that sort of frames my week. And those are usually really great places to check out what we're reading in book club, because if we at all can, we also try and make a note like this week, Spoon River Anthology, our March flight pick is on sale. So last week, how to read a book was on sale. It's not on anymore. I'm sorry to tell y'all, but we always try and put those in both of those places.

Real quick, flight pick equals book flight equals like a wine flight. A read that like compares, contrasts, makes you notice things you wouldn't otherwise, a really good companion, completely optional, and we don't always have them. But Spoon River Anthology was discussed at length in How to Read a Book, and we could not resist making it our official flight pick. And official just means like there's a...

designated place for conversation. Like, you know other people will be reading it and discussing it. Probably a quorum of people. Exactly.

I know there's more we could say, but we have covered a lot of ground. Ginger, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. What a pleasure. I'm not going to say this has become a firm summer tradition, but I feel like sometime in the spring or summer, I have really grown to love coming into the space and chatting with you in some way about books, whether that's books for my personal life, in this case, a little bit about the book club and books that I have loved. So thank you for letting me share. I can't wait for what's coming. We

sometimes say that Summer Reading Guide Day is the most nerdiest time of the year or the best book day of the year. And it just feels like a big book party and I cannot wait for it. Yes. I mean, we haven't had spring break where we are, but it is summer in my mind, in my heart, definitely in my Kindle, in my ARC stacks.

It's going to be so much fun this year. And you may know if you've been a What Should I Read Next listener for some amount of time that the Summer Reading Guide Everything is a big perk of being in book club. If you've thought about joining, now is a really excellent time to get in on that action. We do the, I mean, of course, you get the Summer Reading Guide itself, the PDF. We're printing it this year, which is going to be really fun and exciting. We've never done that before for the Summer Reading Guide, like printing actual physical stuff you can get in the mail.

And we do the unboxing for our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club community, but there's also a lot of buzz and debriefing before and after that I'll just say it's so much fun and leave it there.

We've really been even sort of planning, crafting our spring, March, April, parts of May around knowing that so many of you are going to come and join us. And so things that should be really fun for you and get you acclimated into book club in a deliberate way. So if you are thinking about it, take a chance. Go ahead. Come on now. We can't wait to have you. And so come on in. The water's just fine. I love it.

Readers, I hope you enjoyed our conversation today. We would love to hear your thoughts on Chris Cleave or anything else. If you have an idea for our upcoming book club reads, comments are open. Come tell us what you're thinking. We have shared the full list of titles talked about today, as we always do at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. And we would love to have you join us in book club.

You can learn more at modernmrsdarcy.com slash club. That's different than the URL Ginger shared earlier, which also totally works. Members.modernmrsdarcy.com. Pick your pick, your pick. And if you like, if the algorithm smiles upon you, you can keep up with book club updates on Instagram at mmdbookclub. Sign up for our weekly newsletter to get the latest news in your inbox. That's at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com slash newsletter. And our show is on Instagram at whatshouldireadnext.com.

Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next is created each week by Will Vogel, Holly Wilkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Our special guest this week is Ginger Horton. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rocha said, ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading. Happy reading, everyone.