Ep 482: Diving into evocative ocean reads
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Now I have a healthy TPR list that I've managed through. I don't know. I don't know if you call it the Ann method. I think you're going to need to say more about that. Hey readers, I'm Ann Bogle and this is What Should I Read Next? Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader. What should I read next?

We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week, we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest. Readers, our summer of literary fun is in full swing over at the Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club. We had a blast at our summer reading guide unboxing. And next week, we're hosting summer reading guide author Kevin Wilson for our June live author talk on Run for the Hills.

If you love conversations with your favorite authors, we have a whole bunch in our archives that all our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club members enjoy for access anytime. There's a ton of book talk happening in our forums right now, and I'm sure our summer reading guide selections were a topic of conversations at our recent member mixer. We're looking forward to our upcoming Reader's Weekend next month, too. Book Club is a great place to gather with fellow readers and talk all about the summer's most discussable books. Join the fun at modernmrsdarcy.com slash club.

Today, I'm talking with a guest who'd love to see her real-life love of the ocean mirrored in the pages of her books. Noelle Leong is a science and medicine-focused librarian at a small liberal arts college. She loves getting outside the library with students on trails and visiting tide pools because marine science is close to her heart.

So it's perhaps unsurprising she'd love my help finding books about the ocean, whether that means pop science, books where the ocean is setting, even a character. Noelle is up for anything. While this isn't an exclusively summery theme, I know so many of us associate the ocean with summer vacations and family trips. So now feels like just the right time to dive in and find titles that will appeal to Noelle's reading wishes right now. Let's get to it.

Noelle, welcome to the show. Hi, Anne. Thanks for having me. Oh my gosh, it's my pleasure. I'm so excited for our conversation today. I'm really excited. I fear that I may, I feel like I'm not a long time of a listener, even though time is relative. So I'm extra excited that we have at least a shared timing where our interests are aligning at the same time.

And I love today's topic, which we will get to shortly. But first, Noelle, would you tell us a little bit about yourself and give our readers a glimpse of who you are? I'm a science librarian. It's like, I don't know, a funny title, but I mostly do like science stuff. We just got a nursing school at the college I work at. But the stuff I studied and the stuff that's really close to me, I think, is marine science and oceanography. So yeah.

At any point in my career, I've basically been making my way down to the tide pools or the coast at any point in time. But I did just start a new job. I used to be at a community college for a long time. And they don't really have...

distinct titles. So I was the default science librarian, but now I have like the actual capital S science librarian at a small liberal arts college in Northern California. And I'm really passionate about like open educational resources, accessibility in the library, which I'm sure a lot of listeners and other book lovers care a lot about.

My favorite jobs, I think romping around with students on forest trails and getting to the tide pools. Even in library school, I somehow convinced the marine botany teacher

professor to let me teach it because I was like, well, I've done seaweed pressing and I used to take biology classes, so can I help TA this class? I mostly just wanted to go on the field trip, to be honest, to collect seaweed and do the lab with students. So those kinds of jobs or teaching jobs have been my favorite versus the classroom. That sounds amazing. As a middle-of-the-country resident, I mean, we have a river, but...

The first time I got to go tide pooling, I mean, I had had no idea what I was missing out on. Which ocean did you go to? Pacific and Oregon. Oh, everything there is nice and big and chunky compared to like Northern California is bigger, you know, like sea stars and all that stuff. The more north you go, but Oregon and like up in Washington, those are some chunky sea stars. It was amazing. I've been wanting to go back ever since.

I think all of the ocean things and like tide pooling and visiting the ocean segues pretty well into like being a D&D player and a library stuff. But I say that because for those listeners who play board games and maybe role-playing games, being a druid is the most fun thing to like draw on all of the nature and the science to like infuse it into the game. And I have a lot of students at all the colleges that I've worked at that I found, you know, that niche of

Students who really need an advisor, so it's been great to dig into that and have it kind of affect how I play with my own home game friends. But then at home, it's just me and my partner and our little, well, my childhood dog, I guess, since I'm almost 30 and my dog is now the age of...

I was when I got him. He's 16. He's, yeah, quite an ancient little, but he's white, a little white crusty dog. So he's a puppy basically in my eyes since he doesn't look a day over two. But really at home, I think the bulk of what surrounds me is all of my creative, you know, ventures. So me, you know, with all of my fashion choices, building an outfit, all of the different

craps I've ever tried surrounding me at all times, and even cooking in the kitchen and all the different spices and ingredients to try something new, I feel like. Ooh, I wonder if that's going to come up more today. Maybe. That's true. Trying new creative endeavors. Noelle, tell me about your reading life. How does that fit into your life now? There was a brief time in graduate school that I thought that I had officially done it and ended my

lifelong love of reading, which is the saddest thing that had ever happened to me. But thankfully, that was not the case. Reading has been kind of that soft place to land since forever, I think, because my parents were such voracious readers themselves. And so they did a pretty good job, I think, of making sure that I was, you know,

they were reading with me, but then that quickly took off far faster than they could keep up with, I think. I feel like I do, or I went through phases. So like, you know, ocean stuff and nature and all of that stuff didn't really come until later. I was definitely reading a lot of, you know, Little Princess and Secret Garden, British children's literature as a child. And then, you know, a mix of science fiction and like tutor historical fiction in middle school and high school. But

after college, and I did do an English major in addition to an environmental science major, so I couldn't pick. I don't know. I kind of branched out from there into the smorgasbord. I always told people that there's nothing I wouldn't read if they were passionate enough to recommend it to me. And I think that helped open up a lot of genres I didn't necessarily know I liked. And even historical stuff and science fiction and British old literature still makes its way in, but

At this point, I'll really read any genre. I mean, some mysteries and horror I'll stay away from because I'm a little bit of a fraidy cat, but sometimes I've still dipped in and I was just too curious not to. At this point, though, after graduate school, I guess it's hard working in libraries. I guess it's almost inevitable that I would fall back into finding something I was interested in reading and getting back into it. So now I have a healthy...

TBR list that I've managed through. I don't know. I don't know if you call it the Ann method. The Ann et al. I think you're going to need to say more about that. Yes, the Ann et al method that's been previously mentioned about the river, not a bucket that has really helped me like let books flow past me. And then also I do, I still have my like physical and metaphorical bucket that I've been carrying around from apartment to apartment. But I'm like,

I think half of that was a practice in DNFing. I had probably twice as many as I have now, and I read the first, I don't know, 60 pages or so of each book. And then if I was like, it's not hitting by then,

donating it. So now I have half, half the size of the bucket. Wow. So I'm impressed both by your thorough exclusion strategy. 60 pages is legit. And also the, you got rid of half. At least for the ones I owned, I'll usually give a, you know, a new book I pick up more than 60. You know, usually if I'm meh, I'll still let it percolate a little longer, but at least for the ones I was physically shuffling around, it was

It was getting a little too much. Yeah. We'll tell our listeners that Noelle is referring to really a Patreon bonus we did that Shannon and I actually accidentally answered twice because I think it seemed that important. But the crux of your question was, how do I, and also how could you possibly, not get overwhelmed by a TBR list that I think, as you said, probably accumulates from every angle and corner of life?

Yes, definitely. And yes, that folks in books, booksellers, podcast hosts who are experts in books, librarians and so forth, all, you know, are encouraged to read at all times. But I think ultimately, right, how do we pick the ones that stick and actually get all the way through from start to finish? Yes. Well, you come here today with a special request.

Do you want to share that before we talk about your books? Sure. I'm really looking for more books about the ocean because I'm always looking for them. And when I say this, it could really be, you know, pop science, fiction where the ocean is like a setting or a character. I feel like sometimes the ocean like is its own entity in these books or even like poetry. For instance, like a good pop science one that I'm thinking of is How Far the Light Reaches by Sabrina Impler. It's like

an intersection of queerness and marine science that really stuck with me. We could go like full academic, this Wild Blue Media by Melody Ju, this like academic nonfiction, like media studies, you know, fluidity, permeability, water, if you want to get into like theory stuff. But even like, I remember a childhood favorite was The Tale of Emily Winsnap. That whole series, which I did not know, expanded since I think I

like gently outgrew it as the books were still coming out but I went back recently and read them all and I was like this was like a nice hop back into memory lane um and then I know Ruth Ozaki has been on like a recommendation many times so A Tale for the Time Being is definitely one of my like favorites kind of time jumpy good character study but like the ocean kind of seems to be like its own character sort of in that one I feel like and then maybe I don't know non-traditional um

like Mary Oliver poetry, that kind of peaceful reflection, groundedness. I feel like a lot of the things that she, not just ocean stuff, but like that kind of tone tends to be the poetry I gravitate toward. And then like, I don't know, animated films, The Song of the Sea, that kind of mythic, folkloric, like all of those aspects of the ocean are things that I'm like looking for. And yes, the ocean is vast, the books about oceans.

are vast. So I'm excited. I have two questions. You know, that's a lie. I have more than that. But my first is, where's the satisfaction in you as someone who has this deep love of oceans to see how they factor into, gosh, I hate the word factor here. We're doing math and science and literature all at the same time. But you want to read about the oceans. Where's the satisfaction in that specifically? Yeah.

and seeing this topic you love in books. Is that self-evident to every reader? I don't know. That's a good question. I've run into a lot of readers who are like, maybe it's the way they read. It's similar to like, you know, how folks see, you know, color or like hear sounds or whatever. Like, I don't know. When I'm reading at least some of these books, it feels very much like

being like it kind of, you know, mentally, physically transports you, I guess. So, you know, if it's a summery time and I don't know, maybe in folks in another hemisphere, like it's wintry here, I'd like to be in a summery, oceany setting or vice versa. A stormy sea feels, you know, emotionally correct at that time. I feel like the ocean is, in books at least, with the author that fits, it feels very transportive.

Noelle, I hadn't thought about it like that. That's so fascinating. And it helps to hear that through the pages of a book, you can be, not just learn. I took for granted, correct me if I'm wrong, that you wanted to learn more and expand your body of knowledge and have the satisfaction of a growing mastery about this topic that you love. But also the idea that these works are going to mentally and physically transport you to this place that you love in a way that you can't go on your own.

That's really helpful as we're thinking about things today. I think so. And then, yeah, now that I'm thinking about the books that came to mind when I had this prompt for myself, it was like, oh, a lot of them are like folklore and time skippy and a little more mystical or have an element of not necessarily realism, even though I do enjoy the science and nonfiction as well. Okay. Yeah.

I'm curious to hear what light this does or doesn't shed on our ocean book selections, but we are going to talk about what you love and don't today as well. Are you ready to talk about your books? I think so. Noelle, you know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and we will discuss ocean books that you may enjoy reading next. How did you choose these today?

I chose these to be quite honest. I'm a very forgetful person. I rely on Storygraph. That's not like a plug for like, you know, that kind of like a SpawnCon plug. Like I love Storygraph because it keeps me in line with my own memory of what I've read and not read.

And I have a tag for the most favorite ones. And I feel like I'm pretty stringent, so I only have 10 over the last couple of years that hit me hard enough that I'm like, I still think about that regularly. I want to buy a hardcover of that to keep in my library. So this is from that shortlist, I guess. I love it. What is the first book you love? Homegoing by Yaa Gyasi. I feel like

the rich character studies linked in family and time. I don't mind the time skippy. Clearly that's come up from Ghana to America, all the places in between, and the generational lineage between two sisters over time and space. I think what really got me was the kind of skill and tenderness that she showed each character. I feel like with ensemble character groups, it's really hard with the short amount of time that

each character gets in a full novel but this was like somehow a short novel but i knew each character so well and it was still a page turner but there was still like the gentle reflection that i feel like i'm drawn to because i'm that way and it was i don't know a miracle for all those reasons so i really love this book ooh drawn to gentle reflection was that really powerful to articulate that in your reading life at a certain point

I don't know. I feel like that's generally, it's so funny because in meditation, all of those things you should do as a person to reflect and be self-aware. I feel like I'm always thinking, maybe I'm overthinking those things. So it's nice to see that in a book. Noelle, what's the second book you love? A second book I love is a sidestep away from the fiction over time, and it's The Anthropocene Reviewed by John Green.

I grew up with Vlogbrothers 2.0 on YouTube, which is him and his brother sending missives across the internet to each other for, I think, a year or two. One, Hank, his brother, is the more science-focused person, and he, John, is a writer and author. But my favorite versions of them both were when they were always waxing a little philosophical or talking about greater world systems, I guess, to better understand science.

humanity. And this book, I think, really captures that since all the previous books he had written at that time were all angsty young adult novels, fiction. And this feels very in line, I guess, with how I hear his voice. And so even listening to it on audiobook, I'm actually not a super audio fan, but specific books really hit. And this one was a great audiobook to listen to him read his own thoughts and essays. Each chapter is an essay, so it's nonfiction.

And I feel like this book hits the niche of realistic but hopeful. Unfortunately, Matt Haig's books tend to be a little too end with a neat bow for me in terms of existential thoughts. But John Green's essays are both non-cynical, realistic, grounded, and I like that about it quite a bit.

Are we talking about Matt Haig's nonfiction? Oh, like peanut butter toast will save the world. Maybe I should read those because all of the fiction I've read by him all and have that like, you know, what is my life and then the end of the like, and I feel good about it at the end. And I that is not my cup of tea, I think.

Okay, so you're thinking about his fiction tied up with a bow. Okay. Well, first I read the comfort book, Nonfiction by Him, and then I went back to read Reasons to Stay Alive. I'd be curious to hear what you thought about those. I am curious. I do not know if there are ocean references. It's been too long. I do not remember. And that's true. But I'm sure you would have noticed in a way that I would not have.

I will say for the John Green, I was instructed, I think by Donna on our team to listen to that on audio. And I'm really glad I did. Yes, definitely. Okay. Noted. Realistic, but hopeful works for you. Noelle, what's the third book you love?

This one's a very, like a much more ocean direct, I guess, is Piranesi by Susanna Clarke. I know it's a lot of folks' favorites, but I had to be encouraged to finish reading this one by my partner. He had read it and said, like, if you get it past the first third, like, you'll love it. I know you, I know this book, I read it.

I don't know how often that happens for you or listeners, but it's... Oh, yeah. Yes, that is not unfamiliar. Yes. It's not too long, so I was like, okay, I can do this. I read a longer book that I hated more. This one I did not hate at all. It's a favorite now. The atmospheric kind of mystery of the first part, I think I was just impatient, really makes way for that fantastical, weird finish. And the vibe or tone kind of reminds me... It's like it's not horror, but the kind of unreliable narrator...

unknown mystery and then that of course the like ocean being its own kind of character and all the different elements that the protagonist encounters honestly it kind of feels like Annihilation which is like a eco horror by Jeff Vandermeer but for some reason it gave me that same feeling of kind of traversing Solo through a unknown space and I really liked the way that that one came out and then yes I

I was like, you were right. But he's just glad that I enjoyed it so much. Funny thing. I enlisted our team member, Bailey, who loves that book to help me talk it through and remember if Piranesi might be a good oceans book for you. Like what I have this visual in my mind of the labyrinth that I constructed based on prose, but I wanted...

validation that yes it was prominent enough a feature and like we debated and she was like yes and I said I think so and only then did I realize you already love it yes I think and that is a great example of that like ocean is it's almost its own entity as a part of the book almost a character I feel like that hits that for me

All right. That's helpful. Thank you. Noelle, now tell us about a book that was not right for you. And I'd love to hear why. Was the timing wrong? Was it not to your taste? Was it about a topic that you didn't want to cover? What did you choose?

I think All Fours by Miranda July is something that a lot of people love. And I thought it would be for me too. I didn't jump on it immediately, but it had been recommended to me, mostly because I do like a good, in quotes, weird girl fiction book. And because there's this book, Remainder, by Tom McCarthy that I liked in the early 2010s a lot. Oh, I don't know that book. It has the same elements of...

I don't know if you've ever watched The Rehearsal by Nathan Fielder. I haven't. It's kind of an absurdist humor sort of thing, but the show is. I would say Remainder is not very much a comedy, but they all center around that feeling of like,

that thing on the tip of your tongue that you're trying to recreate the feeling and the aesthetic of. And so the rehearsal that plays with more like social rehearsing, but Nathan, the showrunner, creates these elaborate sets that look so real and remainder is that. But in that case, the protagonist is like basically dropped in with no memories. But so he's trying to recreate his memory by creating elaborate sets. And so in all fours, when the protagonist is like

you know, building in the motel room. This elaborate, you know, aesthetic, perfect curated space. Like it feels very much like that. And I think people who recommended it to me thought that would really fit what I was looking for. But that second half of the book, I guess, the characters just ended up falling a little more flat. And it turns out I was really just interested in the same things that I knew I was interested in, I think. Yeah. And I know all tastes are subjective, but the parts that felt like they were supposed to be

like shock value or perverse or whatever i guess didn't feel like they were grounded to me in like the plot as much i think maybe we're just you know at different places in our lives maybe you're right the timing wasn't right um but i did really appreciate like kind of i do love a i don't want to say midlife because i feel like we have them multiple times over our lives but like a woman's multiple life crisis i guess like i do love those sorts of books like the reckoning

um of self books so that's why most of it was good but then it just by the end i wasn't very satisfied okay so you didn't find it satisfying i haven't read the second half um i read the first half of this when i was vetting books for i think was this just last year last year summer reading guide and decided it wasn't what i wanted and really need to find the other books in the guide and thought i can always come back later and i haven't yet thanks for sharing your thoughts on that one thank you

Noelle, what have you been reading lately? A book that I finished relatively recently, Immaculate Conception by Lingling Huang. Oh, I'm so curious. This is on my list. Yeah, she wrote Natural Beauty. I think a lot of people liked that one. That one was more, I think, about beauty augmentation and stuff, but this one...

was about, like, female friendship and definitions of art and, like, obsessive friendships. And it's all, again, in a dystopian system, similar to natural beauty, but, like, where magical realism toes the line. This one definitely toes the line between dystopic and real. But I loved that it was set in the art space, and it was so...

connected specifically to the protagonist and her best friend to the point where they're sharing consciousness. What a fun, interesting book. Okay, that sounds wild. So this one worked for you? Yes, this one worked for me. I feel like these, I don't know, settings that point us to ask questions without telling us the answer really do work for me. And I think this does that really well. Noelle, we've talked about this a little bit, but...

What are you looking for in your reading life right now? I think ultimately I'm on the other side of the coin when it comes to the question of like culling your TBR list or picking selectively. I'm really looking to pick selectively at this point.

So I guess that really just ends up being, I'm still working on being okay with, you know, DNFing, not finishing a book that I'm not happy with. Like one that I, that was recommended to me that probably lots of folks have read, Remarkably Bright Creatures, the octopus book for shorthand. Because it's in the, well, I mean, is it in the ocean? It's in the aquarium. It's definitely ocean adjacent. Like I've worked in an aquarium. I did befriend an octopus, sort of, like while working on Empty Tuesdays. So people were, you know, like, oh, this is,

But how funny is it that like the way the octopus's voice was written, I was like, that's not how the octopus I know in real life would talk. So like, I love being okay with DNFing for like the most absurd reasons is okay. I mean, okay.

I wish that your octopus had been brought to life. But just like what a fascinating observation. I didn't have the personal experience myself to have that kind of observation when I was reading that book. Though I did enjoy Michael Urie voicing the octopus in my ears. Oh, how fun. Yeah, I really like him. Okay, so we're looking for ocean books. And also what you're looking for, maybe what you're channeling is,

is just because it has to do with the ocean very, very directly or peripherally doesn't mean it belongs on your TBR right now. Yes. I think ultimately answering the question the long way by giving books that I like or love has brought forth all of the other things I do like about a book and the ocean I think just ends up being that extra thing that makes it from pretty good to like, this is my book. Yeah.

Okay. With that being said, can we talk about ocean books? Yes. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited. You said whether it's pop science, fiction where the ocean is a setting or a character or even has a significant presence, that there are lots of options to choose from. Should we start with fiction or non? Let's start with nonfiction since I didn't really talk that much about nonfiction. Okay.

I'm getting the sense that maybe fiction is where you want to spend most of your time. Is that accurate? I think it's, I would say, based on my story graph stats, it's probably two-thirds. Because I still do really love a good nonfiction book, and academic writing is not a stranger to me. Two-thirds. That was precise, and I love it. Let's start with The Blue Machine, How the Ocean Works by Helen Zersky. Do you know this one?

I've seen it in passing, and it seems like the kind of book that might be for me. Well, maybe. Here, your call. This just came out in 2023. Zersky is a London-based physicist and oceanographer, and this book really is about the blue machine. Called that for a reason. So she's saying that this is her exploration of the ocean.

engine of the ocean. When she calls it the blue machine, she's talking about that engine specifically. She's looking at the physics behind the ocean systems and why it matters in really obvious way, like how does the ocean stay healthy, but also how does it impact human lives and culture? And she thinks the answer is in really huge ways that we probably haven't thought about for a second.

And she says that this isn't metaphorical at all, but an engine is something that converts other forms of energy, usually heat, into movement. And she says the most frustrating thing about this engine, and to her as a physicist and oceanographer who is fascinated with this stuff,

it's hard to watch this engine directly. Like for as much as we feel like, oh, we go to the shore and we look at the ocean or we go out in a boat. She's like, no, like this system is massive and it's so, so hard to observe it. And this is actually really fascinating. She talks a lot about how when we went to space,

We did it to explore space. But something that happened is we really came to appreciate that the defining feature of Earth is not land but water. And to be able to see the ocean from a distance was really incredible. I feel like I'm getting really excited about the ocean, but I only have like an eighth of the enthusiasm she does now.

But here she's following the energy and demonstrating how the ocean moves and what it means for all of us. Like she says, as citizens of the earth, we cannot escape the influence of oceans. She talks about how it's woven deep into human culture. And she has all these cool charts and maps and illustrations where she's like, look, you were told to name four oceans in school, but let me show you how they're all interconnected and feed each other and why and how it all works.

And I'm not a super science-y person. Very different from you, Noelle. But talking to our listeners, I thought this was fascinating. How does that fit into your ocean exploration? Sounds amazing. I mean, first that you noted her enthusiasm. I love an enthusiastic scientist talking about their, you know, interest in specific things.

area of study. And I'll be honest, physics was my one, I mean, one, many, but one of the weak points I definitely had in my marine science background. So I'm excited that seeing it in a different way and hearing her talk about it in her own way, that might be the bridge I need to be okay with thinking about physics in a different way. And that's something that I

I think it's really important to me as a personal goal to overcome a lot of those things that I struggled with previously studying science. So I'm really excited actually about this one. I'm excited you're excited. And for something very different, do you know The Perfect Storm by Sebastian Junger? Oh, I don't know this one.

Okay. He is probably an author that my husband, Will, found from Outside Magazine decades ago. He's a nature and maybe adventure writer. He writes about our culture in really interesting ways. Oh, gosh. What is the name of the book I've recommended several times on this podcast?

about going into a war zone. I cannot remember. I'm sure listeners are shouting at their phones right now, "Anne, I know what it is!" But this is one of his earlier works. Oh, but let me say about Younger, he sees things from angles that it wouldn't occur to me to even think about. And here he's taking that lens to the storm of the century, the 20th century that took place off the coast of Nova Scotia in 1991.

And he wrote this book in 1997. So it's now lasted for three decades and readers are still going to it. But he weaves together three perspectives about this storm. The first is the actual storm and the meteorological reporting and forecasts on how they saw it taking shape and gathering speed and going from there.

And then he tells the story of the fishing crew aboard the Andrea Gale, their commercial fishermen, which was... I've read more books about commercial fishery since then, but at the time, this was all new information to me. And also a dramatic rescue of a privately piloted three-person yacht in the Atlantic. So he's popping you all over the Atlantic Ocean, showing these three different perspectives and how...

I mean, this is a man versus nature tale that is compelling and page turning and impressive. I mean, the storm is impressive and I feel like he captures it. How does that sound? How does that fit into your schema? That was really interesting because it's not something I'm like,

normally studying per se but like it's also funny to think of the 90s as like history maybe and so this kind of fits right in that niche that might bring me in in the right way to like have all those different perspectives you mentioned and also yeah having it be recent enough that feels you know like technology wise at least that feels memorable and then huh I'm really interested also in that

I do like that feeling, that feeling of like not just the sandy beach ocean or like exploring at a human level, but in a like that, you know, stormy, scary, the ocean is the ocean and like the respect, you know, that you automatically feel in the face of something like that, like that also does intrigue me. So I'm excited about that one. Okay. I'm excited. You're excited. Now let's go to fiction where the ocean is represented and, you know, factors in, in a variety of ways. Yeah.

I'm going to start with The Love of My Life by Rosie Walsh. Have you read this one? Okay, I'm really struggling to remember because I didn't read this through my ocean lens. I really enjoyed the book. But the protagonist, Emma, is a marine biologist and she is renowned. In fact, her worldwide acclaim in her field is important to the plot. She's been married to her husband for 10 years. Her husband, Leo, is an obituary writer.

And one of the things that he does is to draft those advance obituaries for well-known individuals so that they are ready to roll out whenever they should be needed. So his wife, Emma, ranks an advance obit. As far as a marine biologist can be known worldwide, she is known.

So he's not really supposed to be writing the one for his wife, but he is because that's how the plot's going to work here. But when he begins researching his wife's life to write her story, he quickly discovers that the truth that he's discovering doesn't match the story she has told him. And he discovers really unsettling things like he doesn't even know her real name. So we've got a mystery story.

This isn't really thrillery, but it's got a tinge of like that psychological thriller flavor. We've got a real relational drama. Emma's backstory is, I mean, obviously the key to all this. She had some hard things in her past that she didn't want to share with her husband. But we're going to find out on the page before she knows that her husband is kind of onto her. And it's not sinister, but it is.

Because I wanted to find out what was happening. So the ocean is tangential. Like she's going to conferences and giving papers and spouting tidbits. How does that sound to you? Like, does that appeal? That appeals to my sense of like Mr. and Mrs. Smith, like, you know, that sort of aspect of, you know, like, do I know my partner? And also their complementary professions. Yeah.

I'm kind of curious. I mean, I'm always curious how like academia and those sorts of things are portrayed in books, like, and so especially in this field. So I feel like that might be fun for me to read, you know, as a tidbit spouter and conference goer myself. I think so. I think the rest of the books we're going to talk about are going to be more thoroughly grounded in the actual ocean and

Next, I'd love to share Sea Wife by Amity Gage that came out in 2020. Are you familiar with this one? Oh, I've seen this one swirling around, but I've never read the synopsis or anything. So I'm curious. She has a new book called Heartwood that just came out on April 1st, which has gotten a ton of coverage and readership. And whenever that happens, the backlist surfaces in a big way too. So I'm thrilled for her about that.

I mean, I still remember the first line of this. Where does a mistake begin? This story was inspired by a real life 2014 Coast Guard rescue. And it's about a couple who are in middle age. Their marriage is not doing well. They are dissatisfied in all the ways. And they decide that the solution to this, well, the husband decides and the wife kind of goes along with it. They're going to sell everything they own and spend a year sailing around the Caribbean. Yeah.

When the story begins, we know that Juliet is home, spending a lot of time in her closet. Her husband is gone. We don't know why he's gone, but we know that everything changed on the yacht. And we have to read to find out why. So it goes back and forth in time. In the present day, we see that the wife, or I should probably give her a name. Her name is Juliet. She is really struggling to cope with everyday life in the suburbs.

And then in our cut with that present day narrative, we are reading Michael's captain's log from their year at sea, which includes his real time, real emotional account of the, I mean, they were constantly on the brink of disaster. And we see how dangerous that was, but also the unbearable stress it placed on their already fragile relationship.

So we have a boat in peril and a marriage in crisis. This is definitely thrillery, like relational thrillery. How does that sound? Oh, that sounds very interesting to me. I also like that these are getting me out of my, you know, comfort zone of like character study, no mystery. Like I kind of like this, you know, page turner, like edge of the seat aspect to them. And also I'll be honest, what you said struck something in me about Juliet trying to like

get back into the suburbs and like figure out what that means. Cause I feel like I had the hardest time both in my, I mean, not middle-aged relationship, but my early relationship when I was living out kind of in a rural area. And I was really just focused on the ocean and the woods and making it back into like what felt like society and remembering like the rules of being around lots of other people. Like that was so hard for me. So this feels like something I'm really interested in reading about.

I'm so glad. And I'm glad those vibes are appealing to you, but we are going to shift into something that's more of a gentle reflection. Okay. We have a 2023, I don't know about weird girl book, weird book called Shark Heart by Emily Habek. Do you know this one? Oh, I saw this one pop up on the arcs and I've heard it being recommended. I know that's an awesome book.

Maybe this is it. Maybe this is the final call so that I actually read it. But by all means, please tell me about it. Maybe. Maybe. It's up to you. So this is about, I mean, the relational dynamics here are very real, but the premise is not. We meet this newlywed couple. They're deeply in love. They have a wonderful future together. But then the husband notices something strange. The

the bridge of his nose is turning into soft cartilage. And he's like, "Uh-oh, I know what this means." And shortly thereafter, the doctor confirms that yes, you have one of those many possible genetic mutations that mean you are going to transform into an animal. In his case, it's going to be a great white shark. And highly unusual in this landscape where people transform into animals all the time, his is going to happen before the year is over. Some people have decades.

From this really out there premise, we get a really absorbing and emotionally resonant story of marriage, art, motherhood here, unfulfilled dreams. And one of the big questions is, how do we create meaning in spite of, but also as a result of great tragedy? How does that sound to you? This is really interesting to me.

You know what I didn't tell you? Lewis, I mean, at a certain point, he goes to live in the ocean with his new shark friends. But it's hard and lonely sometimes. I was about to say, will it make me mad if the science stuff is incorrect? Do you think?

It might. I can tell you I'm the wrong person to ask if she got it right or not, but you would know. I also love, though, because clearly I love the magical realism and the fantastical, so maybe those things, I feel like if it's so highly recommended, that might end up overwhelming any whatever details that don't actually pertain to the plot. Yeah.

you know, the cartilage the nose is made out of, or why does he have friends if he's a great white shark or whatever? It might. I'm excited. It might. This might be the call. I know. I'll be curious to hear what you decide.

All right. And we are going to end with a book that I forget what you said, but it made me go, Julia Armfield in the book is our wives under the sea. Do you know this one? No, I don't. Okay. I'm so glad. It wouldn't be like quite the punchy ending if you were like, oh, of course, read it, loved it, or read it, despised it. This came out in 2022. This

This is the story of a woman who embarked on a expedition to the bottom of the ocean and came back changed because something bad went down.

This is about a married couple. Leah is a marine biologist, and she got to go on this amazing, cool, important research trip to the very depths of the Pacific. She was supposed to be gone for three weeks, but something went horribly wrong, and she ended up stranded on the ocean floor for months in a tiny submarine with just two other crew members. When the story begins, she is back.

And she is distant. She doesn't talk. And she's also obsessed with running all the faucets in their home. Yeah.

Her wife is so worried and so frustrated and doesn't know how to reach Leah. Like she was so worried about her when she was on the bottom of the ocean and now she's back in their home and she's so worried about her and it still feels like she's gone. So it goes back and forth. We see the present day, but then we go into these tense flashbacks, both in their relationship into what happened. And the questions here that are being explored are, because there's like a mystery element, what was the point of the trip?

which we find out is sponsored by this organization that has since disappeared. Like that sounds a little suspicious. There's definitely hints of conspiracy here. There's a turn toward horror at the end of the story. And you mentioned that you've been talking to reading that before because you're a scaredy cat, but that's not your normal place. So I want you to know. But this is another portrait of a marriage in crisis for reasons that have everything to do with the bottom of the ocean. Oh, how does that sound?

Very interesting. I love that, like the beginning, it sounded like annihilation, you know, like the scientist spouse goes in, comes back changed. But then this is like a different kind of wildness that I'm really interested in.

A different kind of wildness. Yeah. I like that. I will also say this is a short book. Like this is a 200 pager. Oh no. Now I'm like, will I be sad that it's short? Because this is the one I think I was actually the most excited to read. Okay. Well, let's recap to make sure you've got all your options on the table. We talked about Your One Third Nonfiction, The Blue Machine, How the Ocean Works by Helen Zersky, The Perfect Storm by Sebastian Junger, The Love of My Life by Rosie Walsh, and Sea Wife by Amity Gage.

And then we ended with Shark Heart by Emily Haback. And this final one, Our Wives Under the Sea. You want to keep it? Yes, I'm very excited. All right. Well, I'm excited to find out what you think. Noelle, thanks for the great prompt. And thank you for talking books with me today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to start with the one I said, but I'm equally excited to go in other directions with the books that you gave me too. I can't wait to hear how it goes. And if you're mad about the science, I definitely want to hear about that.

Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Noelle and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Connect with Noelle on Instagram and Storygraph. We've included those links along with the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com. Follow our show on Instagram at whatshouldireadnext. We'd love to see which titles you are loving this summer reading season. Please tag us in your posts and stories and make sure you're following us in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, and more.

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Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next is created each week by Will Bogle, Holly Wilkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading. Happy reading, everyone.