EP-55 吴说对话微策略创始人 Michael Saylor：世界上拥有比特币最多的公司（英语）
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Thank you for your time, Michael. We know you are the most influential star in the crypto field now. I'm glad you can have time to do this interview. I'm the founder of Wooblockchain, a crypto media. Actually, in the last year, some of my friends, they buy MicroStrategy stock and really earn a lot of money in China and Asia.

I want to do this interview and let the Asia investors to know more about you and MicroStrategy. So at first, can you introduce something about yourself and your history and your life? Well, I started MicroStrategy in late 1989. We were a business intelligence software company. We came public in 1998.

I've launched about a dozen other businesses. Another publicly traded company that I started was Alarm.com, A-L-R-M. I think I've always had interest in the history of science and the way that science impacts economics. I studied it at MIT. I studied aeronautical engineering and history of science.

I wrote a book on the mobile wave, on the impact of software dematerializing to a mobile phone, what happens when software runs on mobile devices. And in 2020, I discovered Bitcoin and my company became the first company to acquire Bitcoin and put it on a balance sheet. And today, we're the largest holder of Bitcoin in the world. So, Will,

Michael's strategy, keep buying Bitcoin forever. How much at the most? Yeah, we'll keep acquiring Bitcoin forever. Think of us like a real estate development company. Maybe if you were the first company to go public in Manhattan and you were buying up Manhattan real estate and developing Manhattan property and the year was 1750, you just keep doing it for hundreds of years. So you're not really selling, you're just buying real estate.

So we'll keep developing Bitcoin. We see it as cyber Manhattan. It's digital property. So we will keep acquiring it. And then we will use that as collateral in order to launch other businesses.

Like, we're now the largest issuer of convertible bonds in the United States marketplace. And we just launched our first convertible preferred stock. So those are two examples of securities that are collateralized by Bitcoin that are unique to the market. We'll keep doing things like that as Bitcoin increases in price and as we see new opportunities. Got it.

But I have to say, some people said if the MicroStrategy's average purchase price exceeds maybe $115,000, it may face some risk, especially in the maybe upcoming bear market. Do you agree with that? No. I mean, the company acquired most of its Bitcoin with equity.

So for right now, for example, we have between $45 and $50 billion of Bitcoin. We only have $3 billion of debt that's not already in the money. So we actually have 15 times more Bitcoin as collateral than we have debt. And the debt we have is unsecured no recourse debt with the term of more than four years. So Bitcoin could go to $1 tomorrow.

Nothing would happen. I mean, Bitcoin could plunge 98%. There is no liquidation risk in the company. The company has permanent capital. HUGO PAPILLONIO: Got it. So what do you think Bitcoin's price in this cycle? Or do you think maybe the bear market will come at this year?

I don't really focus on cycles. I don't believe in cycles. I think that the idea of cycles is something that came out of the first 10 or 15 years of the crypto world. I think we've moved into the era of institutional adoption. And most of the capital flowing in the market is coming from big institutions, and it's equity-based.

So BlackRock and the ETFs, the ETFs have bought more than $100 billion worth of Bitcoin over the past year. They're buying far in excess of the amount of Bitcoin produced by miners. So I think that when we went through the last halving, the amount of Bitcoin being mined and being sold became second order compared to the demand for Bitcoin. We're in a different regime. I think that it's

It's kind of distracting to think about cycles. It's people trying to time the market, and they're always wrong. Like if you try to time the market for when you should buy Manhattan real estate in the last 300 years,

Maybe you would just talk yourself into not buying it, but isn't it correct that you should have bought it at any price, any time in the last 300 years? The same with Tokyo real estate. If you were trying to time the market in Apple stock for the past 40 years, the mistake would be just not to buy it, or Google, or the like. What you have is you have a dominant digital monetary network. It's going up forever.

I think the Bitcoin is going to keep going up on average 29% a year for the next 21 years. So that base case puts it at $13 million a coin in the year 2045. You can buy it for 1/100 of that. What difference does it make whether you buy it at $95,000 or $105,000 or $92,000 or $108,000? There are no traders that are getting rich.

The traders are just playing in the market. The richest people in the world, the Bernard Arnaux's, the Jeff Bezos, the Mark Zuckerberg's, the Elon Musk's, the reason they're rich is because they have a dominant digital monopoly in some asset, and they just hold it, and they don't trade it. HUGO PENA: Yeah. So will Michael's strategy, lend or stake Bitcoin to earn interest in the future like , right?

I don't think so. I think that the smartest thing to do is to issue securities backed by Bitcoin. When you're loaning out your Bitcoin to somebody else, you're taking risk, like they might not give it back. When you're issuing securities to the market, you're holding the Bitcoin. So there's right-way risk and wrong-way risk. A much better idea is I issue $1 billion of securities backed by $10 billion of Bitcoin,

and I pay 8% interest, and I invested at 60% yield. That's a good idea, right? You're getting 52% on the spread, and you're holding your own asset. So if you can get 52%, right? Bitcoin pays 60% for the last six years or eight years. If you can get paid 60% loaning your money to the Bitcoin network, and if you can borrow money at 8% or 10% or 12% or 6% or whatever the number is,

Why wouldn't you do that? That's a much better idea than I give you $10 billion of my Bitcoin and you give me 4%. Why would I take 4% and risk 10 billion when I could risk zero and get paid 40%? LUKE GROMEN: So what do you think about Asia or, I think, Japan or the mining company to copy the micro-strategy approach? Do you think it's an honor?

I think that the more people that join the Bitcoin network, the higher the price of Bitcoin goes and the more powerful the network becomes. And so everyone benefits. So I expect that we'll go from half a dozen companies on the Bitcoin standard to dozens to hundreds to thousands. Your choice is you could either take your capital and invest it in bonds that have an after-tax yield of 3% or 2%.

Or you can take your capital and buy Bitcoin with a 30% to 60% yield, 10x better. I think that companies are rational over time. I think that they'll all start to think about this. And I think that the more companies that join the Bitcoin standard, the better it is for every Bitcoin holder and every company on the Bitcoin standard. So it's a virtuous cycle.

So will strategy develop its own Bitcoin layer 2 or support some Bitcoin layer 2? Or I remember you also are a supporter for the Audino's line, right? LYN ALDEN: I think that we'll wait and see. I think there's a-- you should look at MicroStrategy or strategy as we're already a layer 2, MSTR.

Okay. Is really a layer three on top of Bitcoin, right? Layer two would be an open protocol like Lightning. Layer three is a proprietary protocol like Binance or Coinbase or iBit, I-B-I-T, or M-S-T-R. So we already have a layer three which trades billions of dollars a day.

And we just launched STRK, Strike, which is another layer three, which trades tens of millions or 50 million or more a day. So those security layers or layer threes, they're already pretty powerful. And they appeal to a certain class of investors. So I think that over time, I think we'll see success with layer twos.

like Lightning and the like, but I think that the massive billion-dollar opportunity right now is like layer threes. Okay. Can you disclose how much Bitcoin do you personally own and what's the average price? Do you have any other cryptocurrencies?

I don't have any other cryptocurrencies. I did disclose about four years ago that I have about 17,732 Bitcoin that I purchased, slightly below $10,000 a coin. I forget the exact number. But it's on my X posting. You can find the tweet. I've bought more since then. I haven't sold any. So I have a bit more. But I don't disclose exactly how much more I bought. Yeah.

I read some articles that you recently said that your personal holding Bitcoin will be burned after your death, right? Why not leave them to your family and children or to some donation? I don't have any children. Okay, sorry. I'm single. No kids. So why not just donate to some others or country or something?

I think with regard to charity, you have to make sure that if you have a lot of resources, that the resources you contribute go to the right cause. So if you simply burn your private keys, that's the same as making a pro rata donation to everyone in the Bitcoin network.

That's very fair. It's very equitable, right? So everyone that shares your values, if you believe in Bitcoin, and if you invested a certain amount in Bitcoin, you get a donation from the person that burns their private key. So you're supporting people that believe in the same values you believe in immediately, irrevocably, forever. But if I were to take the money and I were to...

give it to a charity, then 100 years after I'm dead, the person that runs the charity might spend it on something I don't agree with. Yeah. For example, right now, a lot of times people criticize Rockefeller because some Rockefeller charity supports something that they don't agree with. But Rockefeller's dead and he didn't even agree with it.

Like, Rockefeller had very different views. So a guy that's been dead for 100 years is being criticized because his money is doing something in society that people disagree with. That's the danger of leaving your money to a foundation or a trust. I think there are a lot of ways to go about it. You can either spend it while you're alive. You can have a very, very tight trust.

set of guidelines. If you have family and you want to give it to your family, then maybe that makes sense. But I think that Satoshi set an example that is very admirable. Satoshi had a million Bitcoin, and then the Bitcoin never moved. Satoshi basically burns the private keys, disappears forever. And that is a contribution of 5% of the value of the network.

to everybody else for all of eternity. That strikes me as being very charitable. Do you think Satoshi is still alive? Which person do you think? I don't speculate. I don't think it's appropriate to speculate. Understand, understand. Also, I remember you once said maybe banks are safer for

for common people to stone their Bitcoin than self-custody and it's a relatively controversial right. Do you still hold this opinion now? I think that there are different people should custody their Bitcoin different ways. I think some people are quite competent to self-custody and they need to. I think other people are not competent. I mean, is your three-year-old child competent to self-custody their Bitcoin?

Is an 80-year-old that can't actually type or read the keyboard, if they're blind, are they competent to custody their Bitcoin? It seems quite obvious, right? If you run a trust fund for unborn children, are the unborn children competent to custody their Bitcoin? Who should custody it? There are some companies where it's illegal for them to self-custody. There are institutions like

Do you really want the mayor of your town to hold all the Bitcoin of the people in the city? What if the mayor steals it? Yeah.

What if the mayor gets kidnapped and murdered? So I think in the early days, people learned that self-custody was important. And I think we had a lot of crypto cowboys and fly-by-night operations. But there's a big difference between Mt. Gox and JP Morgan. I mean, there's a difference between...

a large bank with tens of thousands of cybersecurity or compliance professionals and very precise procedures versus two people that set up a crypto exchange. I don't think there's a right answer. I think that if you live in a war zone, if you live in Iraq or Korea and you don't solve custody, you probably lose your money. I think that there are many institutions

and groups that they can't buy it without a custodian. So I think that

A rational view is some people should self-custody. Some people should do it by memorizing. Some people should do it with a seed phrase on a metal plate. Some people should do it with a hardware wallet. Some people should do it with an institutional custodian in the country. Some people should do it with a custodian not in their own country. Some people should actually buy a derivative like iBit.

Like if you live in Hong Kong and it's illegal to buy Bitcoin other than through an ETF and you want to buy Bitcoin, then you should buy it through an ETF because your choices be poor. Yeah, it's illegal. Or buy the security, right? So I think that it comes down to the type of entity. Yeah.

right? Is it a city? Is it a charity? Is it a family? Is it a trust? Is it an individual? I think the question is, what's your time horizon? Is it 100 years? Is it 1,000 years? Is it a year? Is it five years? Are you going to be dead in three years, right? It comes down to how uncertain is your environment. Do you live in Manhattan?

Or do you live in Ukraine or Afghanistan? Do you live in Africa? What country in Africa? I think all of those things matter. And then it also comes down to, are you physically and mentally capable? Some people literally can't type. Some people can't actually read the words on their phone. Some people don't have a phone. So sometimes in the crypto world, they think everybody's a 20-something male.

And if you're a male between ages of 20 and 40, you have a very particular view of the world. Well, there's a lot of people in the world that aren't a male between the age of 20, 40. Some of them are cancer patients, 85 years old in a hospital, you know, as different. So I think that everybody should, everybody has to make that decision.

And if you start to become too orthodox or too doctrinaire, you actually cripple the growth of the network. And I think it's in our best interest to embrace all types of entities everywhere in the world in all circumstances. Anybody buying any asset which is backed by Bitcoin in any way, shape, or form is benefiting the Bitcoin network.

Yeah. And I think the goal is to grow the network. Also, what impact do you think Trump's coming to power will have on crypto industry also? Do you think Trump will adopt a national Bitcoin reserve? I think that Trump, the Trump win on November 5th will be good for the entire industry. It'll be good for Bitcoin. It'll be good for the crypto industry. Exactly.

What form it'll take remains to be seen. But you now have a supportive White House. You have supportive cabinet members. You have supportive regulators. You have a supportive Senate, a supportive House. You have consensus that's in favor of progress, in favor of technology, in favor of business, in favor of freedom, in favor of sovereignty, right? In favor of capitalism, right?

And I think that that political consensus means that there'll be a lot of constructive, positive initiatives that should help the industry grow. I think we'll have to wait and see what they are. LUKE GROMEN: But also other opinion, like Vitalik will think Bitcoin or the cryptocurrency will maybe too centralized in the United States.

and Bitcoin or the cryptocurrency will lose its decentralization. Do you agree with that?

No, I think it's quite evident to anyone that Bitcoin is the most decentralized crypto asset in the world. The mining network is spread all around the world. The holders are spread all around the world. It has the most diffuse set of developers, the most diffuse set of holders, the most diffuse set of miners, the most diffuse set of corporate actors.

the most diversified set of regulators and policymakers. It's the best known brand. And it's the most stable. It is the protocol that is least in flux. Things like Ethereum have a 10-year roadmap, and they have 40 things on the roadmap. Well, Bitcoin doesn't have a roadmap. Bitcoin's already done. Arguably, Bitcoin was effectively done a decade ago.

Maybe more than a decade ago right on January 3rd 2009 it was substantially done so What you want is a protocol that is that is broadly distributed that is that is mathematically complete logically complete that has global consensus

There's one asset that has global consensus as being logically complete, and that's Bitcoin. I don't think it's centralizing. I think it's decentralizing. It continues to become more diffuse. There are hundreds and hundreds of millions of people that have some holding a Bitcoin. There is no other asset, no crypto asset that's nearly as broadly held and broadly appreciated and supported as Bitcoin.

Do you think all the other cryptocurrencies are worthless? Also, what do you think about the MECOIN now? LYN ALDEN: I think that if you look at digital assets, you can break down a taxonomy. You can say there's digital commodities, there's digital securities, there's digital tokens, there's digital NFTs, there's digital ABTs, and there's digital currencies.

And if you look at a digital commodity, that would be technically defined as an asset without an issuer backed by digital power.

Bitcoin is the greatest of the digital commodities. There might be half a dozen other digital commodities in the world, something that's an asset without an issuer backed by digital power, but 99% of the power is Bitcoin. A digital commodity is well-suited for money. It's well-suited as a store of value or for digital capital.

Generally, in that case, the strongest asset is going to be monetized. Everything else is getting demonetized. If you decide you're going to monetize gold, silver goes to zero, copper goes to zero, palladium goes to zero, paper goes to zero.

Right now, Bitcoin is the thing being monetized in the crypto ecosystem. Everything that attempts to be a digital commodity will probably go to zero against Bitcoin, should go to zero. That's just because why would you want the second best thing? All you need is one thing, so you want the best thing. Bitcoin is the best thing. If you look at other things...

You know, digital currencies like stablecoins, there's a place for them. The regulatory environment is in flux. If the US creates a regulatory environment for stablecoins where you can-- if a US company or US bank can issue digital currency backed by US dollar equivalents, then I think that industry will grow by a factor of 10 or 100. But it'll be $10 trillion worth of digital currency, the dollar.

By the way, what's the second best? The Euro. What'll happen to that? That'll go to zero. Nobody wants any other currency. They don't want CNY. They're not going to want JPY. They're not going to want the Euro. They're not going to want any African currency. They're not going to want any Asian currency. They're not going to want any South American currency. If you talk to Europeans, 99% of the demand in Europe for digital currency is for the digital dollar, not the digital Euro.

The Euro is clearly the second strongest currency in the world. Nobody in China wants the CNY, that's why there are laws preventing you from trading it. If people wanted it, you wouldn't have a law making it illegal to swap it for another currency. The same is true in Africa. Nobody wants any African currency. That's why there are laws making it illegal to swap them.

So, I think if you go to meme coins, they're digital tokens. There isn't any regulatory framework for them. And so, there's no path to legitimacy right now. But I think that if there's a digital assets framework created, right? If the United States creates a digital assets framework, then they define a token as a digital asset with an issuer, with digital utility, but no physical utility.

If you define that, and if you define a digital security as an asset with an issuer backed by a security, and if you define a digital ABT, an asset-backed token, as an asset with an issuer backed by physical commodities or a physical asset, like an ounce of silver or a barrel of oil or a bar of gold,

And if you define an NFT as a non-fungible asset with digital utility with an issuer, you can define all those. Then you can create a framework. You can define the data structures you need to disclose to the public. You could set the rules for that. And then you could issue millions of those assets in an ethically sound fashion. We just don't have that digital assets framework right now in the world.

So I think that the only digital asset that has regulatory clarity right now is Bitcoin as a digital commodity with a use case of digital capital. If you're going to bet a billion dollars or $10 billion or $100 billion,

You need clarity. And so there's clarity in that regard. We don't have clarity with regards to digital currencies, tokens, NFTs, ABTs, or securities. Even though there's demand, I think that there's a consensus in the United States right now, in Washington, D.C., that we should create a digital assets framework.

But Congress has not created that law nor have they passed it yet. So we're in this gray zone where there's market demand, there's consensus we should do something, but there is no framework. So there is no path to legitimacy.

And so I can't give you an informed opinion as an institutional investor. And if you're a publicly traded company or an institutional investor, use investing other people's capital. It probably wouldn't be appropriate to take a very large position

a billion dollar position in any of those things, because you have to wait and see what the law is going to determine. And we're not sure yet. YUANI ZHANG: Yeah. Actually, I have to say some people complain about one Bitcoin is too expensive now.

Maybe only rich person or the institutions can buy Bitcoin. Such like I told my sister to buy a Bitcoin, she will say, "Oh, all the money I got, I cannot buy one Bitcoin." So how to solve this problem? Young people, maybe young people think Bitcoin is too expensive, so they move. Yeah, I just think it's just a cognitive error.

It's cheaper than a house. And people buy houses, right? It's cheaper than a boat. People buy boats. It's cheaper than a nice piece of art. You can buy one 100 millionth of a Bitcoin. You can buy a Satoshi for a fraction of a penny. You can buy $20 of Bitcoin, $200 of Bitcoin, $2,000 of Bitcoin, $200,000 of Bitcoin, $2 million of Bitcoin, $2 billion of Bitcoin, $20 billion of Bitcoin.

Like it's actually much more egalitarian than buying real estate in Tokyo or Hong Kong or New York. You can't buy a hundred millionth of a building. And so in fact, Bitcoin is property. You can buy it in units of a dollar, $5, $10. So I think that it's just wrong thinking. People are just ignorant, you know, and they're making a cognitive error.

And sometimes that's spread by people pitching them other tokens and other investment ideas. But if you're concerned about making money or getting rich, then you have to overcome those little cognitive biases. It's much smarter to buy $100 worth of Bitcoin.

which is digital property, than it is to buy $100 stock. Because $100 stock in a REIT would be a security. You have a much weaker property right

If you buy $100 of stock in a real estate development company, you're a limited partner. You're a junior partner. You have no title to the property. When you buy $100 of Bitcoin, you own the property. You can self-custody it. You can rent it. You can borrow against it. You can transfer it.

So if you had a choice between investing in real estate or investing in Bitcoin, name me a building in-- what city do you live in, Colin? COLIN DEMERIT: I'm living in Hong Kong. MIKE GREEN: Yeah, name me a building in Hong Kong that you can buy $50 worth of. It's impossible. So Bitcoin is much better investment, much more egalitarian than buying real estate in Hong Kong.

Plus, if you bought a building in Hong Kong, you can't move it out of Hong Kong. But you can buy a fraction of a Bitcoin every week for your entire life, and you can move the Bitcoin outside of Hong Kong, or you can take self-custody, which means it's outside of the Hong Kong banking system. And that's very strong property rights, much stronger than-

than any other property. So, I think people should just buy Satoshis. Many people read your PowerPoint for Microsoft. Will you do such things in the future to continue to talk to some big companies? Well, I talk to companies all the time. Anyone that's really interested, I'll talk to the CEOs or the members of the board.

Most of the time, I talk to them in private. With that Microsoft video, I posted that publicly because I wanted to make that public to every public company. It's the same exact analysis for every company in the public market. They're not that different. 99.9% of them are capitalized on bonds, and they should recapitalize on Bitcoin. So from time to time, I'll speak.

to various companies. And I'll continue to advocate in general for the Bitcoin standard. Just this weekend, I posted a really nice video by the CFO of Jet King. And Jet King is the first company in India that's publicly traded on the Bombay Stock Exchange to adopt the Bitcoin standard.

and they basically started sweeping their cash flows into Bitcoin. I think it's logical for another 100 companies in India to do that, and that's why I posted that video. We publish it at Strategy. We publish a lot of metrics like BTC yield and BTC gain and BTC dollar gain.

that, and we publish a website to help people understand accounting on the Bitcoin standard. And then other companies are copying that and they're learning from that. And their lawyers study our financial filings and our legal filings. So I think it's a campaign of advocacy all the time. There are 400 million companies in the world, 400 million, they should all be capitalized on the Bitcoin standard. And so

You can't necessarily do it one at a time. You have to create videos and you have to post things so they will go virally. But the people all around the world that discover the Bitcoin standard, many of them

They saw one of my podcasts or saw a strategy filing, and then they're inspired by something we did. I've never met them before, but just because I'd never met them doesn't mean they don't know us. Hopefully there'll be people in Hong Kong that will see our podcast and they'll start to think about this and, and they'll benefit from it. We're just, uh,

We're spreading a new type of economics, a new ideology, a new technology, and network awareness. And I think people will be empowered by that. LYN ALDEN: You just say Bitcoin is very mature, don't like the ether. So it means Bitcoin don't need develop in the future? What do you think about something like Bitcoin ecosystem?

I think that on occasion, from time to time, there are certain improvements that make sense. I think that the mining nodes will continue to improve. I think that the ledger nodes will improve. I think the hardware wallets and signing devices will improve. I think there's a robust debate in the community about if there are any protocol changes that need to be made. I tend to be fairly conservative about

I think we should go forward very, very carefully, very thoughtfully. And most protocol adjustments or protocol proposals are probably iatrogenic. That is, they do more damage than good. That's like most of the time with laws. If you look at all the laws, people keep trying to regulate an economy. And they'll come up with 100,000 pages of laws to make the economy work.

like rent control, you know? And they discover that if you put in place a million rent control laws, it destroys the real estate market and no one can actually find anything to rent.

Politicians, regulators are always coming up with an idea. Generally, it's a bad idea. 99.9999% of the ideas are bad ideas. We should be very skeptical of the ideas. Occasionally, you'll have a need for a new idea. When that comes along, then we should consider it when there's broad-based consensus.

I'm supportive, but for the most part, I think that we don't need a million pages of program upgrades. Most ideas are ideas to the benefit of a layer two or someone's layer three, but to the detriment of the rest of the community.

Okay, it's like there, you know, so I think that we we should be very conservative and very thoughtful and very skeptical of Protocol proposals to change things. I think that most of them are cancerous mutations Do you think become either religious also some people said become is somehow like me coin and I think it's an ideology and

Bitcoin represents a protocol to allow you to tightly bind economic energy to your person. For the first time in human history, you have a mathematical technical protocol that allows you to bind capital, economic energy that is, to a corporation or to an individual or to a country. We don't have a precedent for that. Nothing came before that.

And so in that way, it's someone invented language for the first time. And for the first time you can speak, let's say I introduced the numbers one through 10 or one through zero through nine and into the language. What is that? Like, what if I took those away from you? What if I said you're not allowed to use numbers?

What if you can't express the number 14? What if I took it away from you? Well, you would be crippled, right? So if I took away fire and if I took away electricity and if I took away numbers or mathematics, or what if I said you're not allowed to speak, you can't express a sentence. Or if I took all the nouns out of the language, I would cripple you.

So I look at Bitcoin as a protocol for prosperity. And it's the first scientifically based, thermodynamically sound, physically sound, mathematically sound economic protocol in the history of the human race. So it's an ideology. I don't know if it's a religion. It's probably more of a secular ideology.

ideology. But there are a lot of people that think math or electricity or fire are very important to human flourishing. And if you were to take those things away from them, they would probably fight you. So I think Bitcoin inspires intense passion because it is an economic protocol for prosperity.

Thank you for your time, Michael. And my final question is, can you say something to the Asia or the China investors? Because I know a lot of people, also some of my friends, buy the MicroStrategy stock. MICHAEL GREEN: Well, I think that Bitcoin is the emerging global capital network of the world.

There is a digital energy network. It is spreading everywhere in the world at the rate of hundreds of millions of dollars a day. It's getting more powerful. It is backed by the greatest amount of computer power in the world. It's a network of millions and millions of computers. And everybody in the world can plug into that energy network.

And they do it by buying Bitcoin, by handling Bitcoin, by building applications that use Bitcoin, by building their family on Bitcoin, by building their company on Bitcoin, by building their city on Bitcoin, by building their country on Bitcoin. Right. I mean, there are a lot of ways to plug into the network. The network was $200 billion in power when I joined it.

It's more than $2 trillion now. It'll be $20 trillion. Then it will be $200 trillion. Then it will be $400 trillion. It's going to grow for our lifetime. Smart money is going to find the network. People are going to sell their 20th century assets. They're going to sell their real estate. They're going to sell their equities. They're going to sell their collectibles. They're going to sell their currencies. They're going to sell their bonds.

They're going to trade the past for the future. They're going to trade physical assets for digital assets. They're going to trade non-sound money for sound money. They're going to trade weaker assets for stronger assets. People think somehow, well, what if this stops? It's like they're like, well, what if Bitcoin stops going up? And I think what they miss is that's like saying,

What if water stops flowing downhill? What if time stops going forward? You know, what if, what if things that you drop from mountains stop falling down? Right. It's like, what if gravity stops functioning? Well, it's not going to stop. Right. If, if you understand the physics of the network, you understand that this is not random. This is because of thermodynamics, right?

The reason the fire burns, the reason it's hot, it's not random. The reason electricity works, it's not random. The reason that water wheels work, not random. The reason that ice melts, not random. The reason you can boil water, not random. These aren't random things. These are just things you don't understand. And if you understand the physics of

of, of economics, then you can build a machine. You can build a hydroelectric power plant. You can build an airplane. You can build a ship. You can, you know, Henry Ford looked at fire. Well, what if the fire goes out? It's not random, right? An internal combustion engine is when you actually start a fire in a machine and it never goes out.

Right? You know, I start a fire in a jet engine and I fly across the Pacific Ocean for 15 hours by feeding kerosene into the jet engine. Well, what if the fire goes out? Well, if the fire goes out, you're going to crash and you're going to die. But the point is, it doesn't go out. Why? Because engineers engineered the machine so the fire doesn't go out. So my message to everybody is, you can engineer everything.

a better financial system. You can engineer a machine that's fueled by Bitcoin, right? We have a crypto reactor at MicroStrategy. Bitcoin is the fuel. This stuff is not random. If you think it's random, if you think it's a speculation, then you're not paying attention. You're like the guy that thinks that fires flicker and gods create them and they might just disappear if the god of fire goes away and gets angry at you.

But Henry Ford didn't think that. Henry Ford created an entire industry and gave everybody a car, and there are a billion cars in the world today. Yeah. Right? And so you have to look at the world as a physicist and a scientist and a mathematician. And once you see that and you start to think about why things happen...

Then you'll understand what's going on. There's a digital energy network. It is formed for the first time in human history You can plug your machines into a digital energy network That's the path to prosperity or you can run from it or you can just complain about it Right, but if you want to engineer a better world if you want to get rich, you know if you want to change the future of 10 billion people you need to be an engineer and

You know, you can't just complain about electricity shocking you and fire burning you and run from, you know, the superstitious thunderbolts of the gods. Okay. Thank you, Michael. Will you come to Hong Kong maybe in the future? I've been there in the past. I look forward to being there at some point in the future. And if I do, I will look you up. Thank you. Okay. Thank you very much, Michael. Bye-bye. Have a good one.