33.08 - MU Podcast - The Great Ascension Hoax
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Welcome to Mysterious Universe, Season 33, Episode 8. Coming up on the show, we've got the shiny stone cover-up, close encounters of the crashed kind, and your psycho ex-girlfriend from the DMT realm.

I'm your host, Benjamin Grundy. Joining me is Aaron Wright. Are these the interpretive dance images that you were showing me before? Yes, I'm looking at this new book from David J. Brown and Sarah Finn Huntley, The Illustrated Field Guide to DMT Entities. And at the end of the book, they've got this woman that does interpretive dance, DMT style. She's a performance artist. It looks about right. Performance artist. But when I saw this...

on the pre-order list, I thought, what is this going to be? Like just a collection of entity... You mean like encyclopedic style or dictionary style? Yeah, I thought it would just be like a collection of reports and some inspired art from those DMT experiences and psychedelic experiences. But I've got to give David J. Brown, because he's the author here, Sarah Finn Huntley did a lot of the artwork and

So are these AI images? Some of it's AI. She does some AI, but a lot of it is unique art as well. But I've got to give David J. Brown credit because he does a really good job and asks really intriguing questions about what's emerging from the DMT research and sort of comparing it, as we've done over the years, with things like alien abductions, with fairy folklore, and with all sorts of interesting ideas like are these entities real?

actually real? What's the reality of what people are experiencing? And then finding a crossover examples, it's actually quite good. It's more than just a collection of reports and images. Well, that's more of a research approach, isn't it? It's like a critical analysis. And those comparisons of what people are experiencing, I think is really important to the field. Because when people take these substances, hallucinogens,

I guess, from a very materialistic perspective. It's like it's being generated within your mind. And of course, because we're such varied people, we all should have our own entities that we kind of form in our minds. And yet,

yet time after time, we find reports of where someone sees a very specific form of entity, you know, performing a very specific task or ritual. And then yet someone on the other side of the globe reports the very same thing. Well, I've got a great story coming up from a comedian who meets this purple gypsy lady in another dimension. Like he goes into the DMT realm, gets sucked into a portal and he's at some carnival. And this

woman wearing purple comes out and she's dancing around and immediately he realizes they've known each other for thousands of lifetimes. And there's this huge reunion in the DMT dimension. She's like, where have you been? And she's so amazed that he's there and, you know, they, they kiss and hug and catch up. It's like a reunion of sorts. Yeah. And then he gets sucked back to reality. He's like, what the hell was that? That was bizarre. Yeah.

But then people close to him later who he hasn't told the story to start having their own DMT experiences. And they're like, yeah, there was this purple lady there. I was at some carnival and she was asking about you. And then David does a great job throughout the latter half of the book

of finding more accounts across the world of people who have also run into this purple lady, this purple gypsy lady in the DMT realm. Is it possible that this is some kind of weird archetype which is deeply ingrained in the human psyche? Well, there is an idea that it's representative of the molecule itself. Like it is like ayahuasca has mother ayahuasca. It's like lady DMT is this purple wearing gypsy lady.

But there's some really intriguing examples he includes. Also, I want to talk about the research on DMTX, which is now going full steam ahead in multiple locations around the world. What is this? So this is just some of the art. It's like an example of a sci-fi magazine. Because if you're not watching, it's DMTX, Psychonauts.

Training manual level one. Yeah, he's got some great reporting on some of the new initiatives. There's one out of London. There's a really intriguing one that's happening in Boulder, Colorado. And DMTX, of course, is this relatively new method of an intravenous

slow drip of the substance. To keep you in the realm longer? Yeah, to keep people under the effect of the molecule for much longer. So initially, if you smoke DMT, it supposedly- Seven minutes. Sends you into the DMT realm for seven to 10 minutes, maybe a bit longer. But with this new IV technology they're using in Colorado, they're getting people under for up to 90 minutes. And the most intriguing part about this is

is they've been able to achieve this 90 minute duration because of the information that was given to them by the entities in the DMT realm. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. There's something, I always go back to what Graham Hancock said many, many years ago where we saw a presentation and he was describing how he'd gone into this space. I don't know what he consumed.

But he was, I think it was DMT or something similar. But he said that he was being messed with by these entities. And the entity said to him, oh, we've got you now. And Graham Hancock's response was yes, but only seven minutes. And so it was almost like this. Imagine interacting with one of these things. Being trapped there for 90 minutes. And imagine.

Imagine the time distortions where it's like, it might be 90 minutes on our side, but God knows how long it is there. Well, it's this fascinating story. I can't wait to tell you because when they send it in teams, it's really is like NASA doing psychonauts, right? So they send in teams. So team one goes in, makes contact with these entities.

And they get as much information as they can, but they can't get much because it's too rapid. It's like maybe 20 minutes or something. Then team two goes in, the same entities are there waiting for them, ready to continue the conversation. And so team two, based on the information from team one, continues the conversation with these entities. See, that suggests then that it certainly is not

something that is subjective to the experiencer. It is like they are entering an actual space. Precisely. Yeah. And then team three goes in and now the entities are like, okay, you guys are doing great. We like that you're having this approach to it. Now here's what you need to do to extend your time in this dimension. And so team three goes out with this information. Team four goes in and now they can spend even longer in there and they're getting even more information. So this guy that's running this outfit in Colorado is

claims that their goal, their stated goal through this DMT experimentation is to bring back technology that will change the world. Is this based on chemistry, pharmaceuticals? Is that the techniques that they're providing them?

I think it's got to do with the delivery mechanism of the DMT and how to extend it. Because, I mean, I'm just thinking about stories like Shaman, for example. It's just extraordinary with all the species, the thousands if not hundreds of thousands of species that are in the jungle. And yet somehow they managed to find, these Shaman managed to find...

you know, these two substances that go together to allow people to utilize ayahuasca. It's extraordinary. And of course, when you talk to the shaman, you ask, well, how did you get that? And they go, the plant told us. Yeah, the plant told us. So this is kind of like a Western extension of that. That's the same, the guy that synthesized ayahuasca

Salvia. Oh, Salvia. The component of Salvia. He said that the spirit of Salvia taught him how to do it while he was under the influence of Salvia. Maybe there's no connection to it whatsoever, but where I have an element of apprehension is the fact that it's like,

These beings on the other side are trying to make contact with us and trying to facilitate communication. But it goes back to when we talk about things like, you know, like what's it called? What's it called? The transcommunication or basically the EVP stuff, you know, transcendental communication. But essentially it's like these beings on the other side are working to build technology that they can give to people so that they can contact the dead. It's the same kind of thing. Well, that ayahuasca means vine of the dead.

So that, I mean, that's primarily what it was used for to contact the dead. Do you know, I was reading a report the other day, which I found to be rather outstanding. It's talking about, you know, looking at these similarities between reports. It was that people were taking, what was it? They were taking substances and they'd been taking substances for a while and were having their own experiences, clearly just in their bedroom, like not experiencing

expecting anyone else to report it, but they lived in an apartment building and the neighbor downstairs started complaining about sleep paralysis experiences. When the person upstairs was taking the substance, they were having sleep paralysis. What kind of sleep paralysis? Like entities coming into the room, like cloaked entities coming through. And it was only during the time that the person upstairs was taking the substance. So it was like

It was accessing a way for it to come through. And it's just weird, this positioning that it was directly below the person taking the substance. Well, again, to David J. Brown's credit, he covers all those stories. Like he's got demonic encounters, some really negative encounters with the mantis-like beings as well. He himself had an experience, a horrifying experience under the influence where this mantis was like,

on his brain and he could not escape. And he drew it. Here's the picture. You can tell why he got an artist to do the rest of the images for the book. Imagine like that's his face. Right.

Bro. That's how you feel. But yeah, this thing was working on him. Oh, okay. Well, let's not go any further into this. I'm looking forward to getting to this later on in the show. But for the start of the show, actually, I wanted to continue on a little bit from what we were talking about on this week's Plus episode with this weird concept that we were talking about the sons of the sun.

And this is this phenomenon which has been going on for quite a while in occult circles, extraterrestrial contactee circles, that sort of thing, where people are having interactions with otherworldly beings, possibly non-human beings, entities that have never been human at all, claiming to come down and provide contact and information so that they are a chosen person. Well, that segment was about this woman in 19... When was it? 1947, who spoke about...

She published this article in one of Ray Palmer's magazines. That's right. It was very different to the rest of the usual sci-fi you would read in those magazines, wherein it was a message from a secret organization called

on the earth that had the technology of flying saucers, but had been subtly influencing the direction of our civilization from behind the scenes for a very long time. An eternity. And it just, it had some hallmarks which appeared before the contactee period. And the idea of these, um,

entities walking among us who aren't quite like us was something that didn't appear in reference to UFOs because she said in the article they have flying saucers.

That didn't appear until much later. So it's like the question was asked, well, where did she get this information from? And Håkan Blomqvist, the Swedish UFO researcher, dove into this and he discovered that she was married to an occultist for many years. She was connected to the Theosophical Society. But the interview that she gave, she gave an interview where this random person

just teleported into her room one night. Yeah. And she was then taken to a series of night schools. She was initiated into this secret organization and taken to night schools out of body. Right. And this all happened when she was a teenager. And we compared this to Shafika Karagula, who reported something very similar. These night schools. It's strange, but...

I just noticed this week, actually, that there happened to be an article by Marcus Loth reporting on what appeared to be, it was written off as an extraterrestrial encounter, but I don't necessarily think it's that, but it follows this identical kind of format of people being selected and then having all this information put into them for the betterment of humanity. And you and I were leaning more towards the idea of, well,

What is the true agenda of these groups? Why are they doing that? Why are they selecting these particular people? What's the factors going on here? And I wonder, because it's like there is some hidden hand that does seem to be messing with human affairs. And have they been with us for the entire time or is it that it's a group that's only come in recently? Why is it that the phenomenon changes?

But the core of it always stays the same. You see, it was the contactee era where it was all kind of friendly and still a warning that you need to change your ways. And then it became the abductee era where it was completely disturbing and horrifying. And it's come full circle now almost where a lot of the modern stuff, we're back to the psychic contact. Yeah, this is what we discussed on the last show. Absolutely. We saw Jake Barber and-

Ross Coulthard and David Grash at Esalen doing kind of occult... A bunch of drugs? I'm not saying they are. No, no, but occult UFO summoning ceremonies. And we've said many times that this is identical to some kind of occult summoning ceremony that you would see...

from Alistair Crowley in the early 20th century. Yes, going back almost a century. So let me tell you this story of Nona Rozzi. So Nona Rozzi, her case was investigated by the late, great John Mack. John Mack, I think, started off being initially very much a rational nuts and bolts ufological researcher. But like many people in this field, you only have to cover a few cases before you start moving away from the nuts and bolts and very readily realize that

there's a psychic element that's going on here. So I don't think there's ever been just simply it's all nuts and bolts or it's all psychic. I think while cases kind of interpreters and investigators will kind of put their rose-colored glasses on and interpret it in a more positive light or they'll interpret it in a more negative light depending on how they feel,

It's never just one thing. It's not just, oh, this is a nuts and bolts case, or this is just a psychic case. And this is really highlighted by this case with Nona. So Nona, apparently because John Mack looked into it, within ufological circles, it's considered to be a highly respected case. But this happened back in January of 1993. It was the 12th. It was around 1.15 a.m. She awoke in her home in New Jersey and

And she said she recalled needing for a moment for her eyes to adjust to the darkness, a normal kind of thing that happens. But as she did, this surge of fear started

started just moving through her body. It was running through her. And I was thinking actually about the case that we covered from Chet Dembeck, who was saying that, this is on the last episode, but this guy, UFO researcher as well, his daughter brought some weird tube radio into the house and he has this sleep paralysis style hypnagogic experience where three humanoid hybrid type groups

greys try to come in through his window. And when he confronts them, they just disappear. They're ephemeral. They're just into thin air. But again, it's this bedroom invasion phenomenon, which was reported by John Keel.

Now, of course, when she has this surge of fear, the reason why she has it is because she notices that there are several strange figures standing in her room. But it's not the standard style of figure that you kind of accept or would expect, I'm sorry. It's these guys that she can't make out the faces, but they're wearing long robes. They've got hoods that are obscuring their faces. And in a ritualistic way, they're standing around her bed. Are they human?

She's not sure. She says that they're humanoid, but they're completely silent. And she says that there's this electric-like crackle that's in the air. There was this weird static that was giving a heaviness to the air. And she says before she could even contemplate what was going on before her, she's shot in the face by this beam of light. She's like, this beam of light just suddenly appears in the room. And she said it was unlike any light she'd seen before.

And in fact, you've only recently been talking about these weird physics properties of these lights that are attached to this kind of stuff where it doesn't behave in the fashion that we'd expect light to behave in. That's exactly what happened to her. And she said before she could contemplate what had happened to her, she says this shaft of liquid crystalline light struck her squarely in the face, like in the head. Yeah.

Nice. Yeah, they're like, okay, like some weird psychic turkey slap in the middle of the night. What the hell is this? Not what I was thinking, but yeah. I was like...

She says that she could feel these bizarre sensations moving throughout her body, causing her to suffer violent convulsions. Her limbs began to shake intensely. And during these moments of uncontrolled movement, there was this terror that was welling up inside her to the point where she was fearing that she was going to die. And of course you would. Of course. What the hell? You've just woken up in the middle of the night. This is beyond sleep paralysis. Like what the hell is this? And

What was even more potentially unsettling, I would think, was that these hooded figures were completely calm. They were completely still. They're just...

like almost clinically watching these strange events unfolding before them. Now, one of them finally steps forward as she's like, like completely losing it. Being blasted by the hypnolaser. Yeah, exactly. And grabs hold of her hands and then places them around her head. And the convulsion, it's almost like he's controlling and now guiding the energy that's moving throughout her body. It's like it's taking control of it. Now things become even more interesting.

strange, if you can get any more strange, where one of the figures that had stepped closer produces some kind of ankh, like an Egyptian symbol, right?

and kind of holds it over her head. And she hears this voice in her head that she believes came from the figure, but she can't be entirely sure. This is just an overwhelming kind of experience. But here's where this weird ritual kind of ties into this, is that she said she can't recall the specific words of what was taking place, but these words somehow seem to be magical. It was

It was like an incantation or some type of spell that was being cast upon her. But it had a great significance as to what was occurring. And the next thing she knew, these hooded figures just disappeared into thin air. And she's left alone in the bedroom. Now, she's perplexed, if not distressed and confused as to what was going on. Did the whole thing have a feeling of fear? Like, was she sweating with fear? Absolutely.

Absolutely. Like an overwhelming fear and confusion after this event ends. And I think she remained awake until dawn. But she very quickly realized that this wasn't the end of it. This was just the start of this very strange saga. Because as the sun came up, she found her body once again shaking violently. And she later described it as being this feeling of an electrical current that

that was passing through her body unlike anything she'd ever felt before. What have they done to her? Well, I'm beginning to think, I'm like, Kundalini? God, I hope not. I know, but I'm like, did they activate a Kundalini? And you know what? There's this actual point where I was reading other references to this outside of Marcus's article, and I think he briefly mentions it though, but she said that she felt like it had gotten trapped in her spine.

And I'm like, well, that's Kundalini, right? Like there's a blockage of some kind or there's- That's when it goes bad. Yeah, well, exactly. But these secondary convulsions eventually stopped and she was calmer. But for whatever reason, she felt that she was now on a path that would lead her to a place in her soul that she'd never before imagined. I'm like, okay.

This is a terrifying, horrible experience. And yet somehow you're giving it this frame of reference that it's, I don't know, it's positive? Is it, you know, like taking you to a place where your soul has never imagined? What is, was it as, sorry, I'm tired. That's okay. What is positive from this? What is actually happening that's positive? Okay, well, we'll get to that. Like we will get, at the moment, there's nothing positive about it. We have no information to go on.

until she consults Dr. John Mack. Now look, there is a potential here that her experience could be colored by interacting with John Mack. I don't think so. We've looked at hypnotism before. We've looked at certain people in the field and yeah, with

You know, hypnotism, you do find that there are a bunch of people that are from researching, you know, they color a person's experience in the way that they want, whether subconsciously or consciously, it doesn't matter. We've definitely noticed that. Well, Mac was a, you know, Harvard professor of psychiatry. So yeah.

unlikely that he's going to be so reckless. Exactly. Well, I think very professional, uh, I, I believe comes across quite trustworthy. So he, sorry, she contacts Dr. John Mack. Did you turn off the air con? Cause I'm sweating. It's like, yeah, I haven't touched it. It's just like super hot. Like we're not in a proper built studio anymore. It's ridiculous. So let's go back to the, the story here. Okay. So, uh,

He ends up three years later, it was April of 1996, where he pulls out more details of what occurred back in January of 1993. And of course, as I highlighted, he puts her underneath hypnotic regression. So Mac took Nona back to those early hours of

And it became immediately apparent that the way that her body was convulsing, that she, while in the hypnotic regression, was back in that space. She was definitely... And she begins speaking. And while she's speaking, she says that she can feel a vibration at the top of her head three years later in this couch, in this max observation. And...

Max says that when she began to elaborate, she offered that it was as if someone had stuck something into her spine. I'm like, okay, we're going back to what was going on. And her body jolted and moved, and then she found herself back into this space. But she was actually so distressed by going back that she was on the verge of breaking down. And it seems like she was reliving pain. There was this

pain, that sensation of her spine feeling stuck. She said she felt as though every single part of her body was waking up at the same time, and the sensation was spreading throughout her body, reaching her face, her shoulders, her arms, her hands, her legs, and it was

her entirety of her existence, of every physical aspect of her body was shaking with what she described simply as pure energy. Yeah, this really does sound like some of the stories we've been covering recently of these so-called Kundalini activations where it turns into a kind of spiritual and energetic crisis. Well, listen to what happens because suddenly she begins her body to feel lighter and lighter before and she said that she felt that she was now encased in some sort of chaos

of capsule or container of energy. So is this Mac regressing her to the night? That's right. Yes. And this is three years later. This is three years later that this is taking place. Now, as she's regressed, she can see these strange figures standing around her once again, including the one that was standing by her feet, holding the ankh, brought it up to her. This figure was speaking words that contained some type of magic, which we heard from previously. And she became extremely agitated.

And Mac actually had to calm her down because of how agitated she was. But she did calm down and they continued. And her next clear memory was actually being sucked up into that strange beam of light.

So this, she didn't have any memory of this, no memory of this, but she said she was being pulled up through that beam of light that had struck her in the face and was being sucked through a dark hole with bright lights around it. I'm like, this is sounding like an abduction. You can see why this has an, an ET feel to it because anyone on the outside would go,

That's an alien abduction. What's happening to her? Yeah, but also on that story we covered a few weeks ago, I mean, that's how, I can't remember the author, but that's how he described it, being sucked up through her spine. It sounded very much like what she's describing, but she's describing something external. But listen to this, though. If you recall in some of those cases as well, she said once she was pulled through that hole or entered that hole, she found herself inside a blue-lit room with a dome-like ceiling.

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It's like they're being taken to this place. Yeah, that's pretty synonymous with UFO abduction. Isn't it? A craft of some sort. Yep, yep. So she says... Not like an underground column of fire. No, very different in that regard. Which was, yeah, from 3305. But she said that she was determined that she was alone.

But then something ominous starts to take place. And this is where it starts to coincide with the more standard 1980s, 1990s grey abduction because she finds herself lying on a cold metallic table-like surface. And there was some type of pressure at the side of her head where something was being inserted into her ear.

Now, she doesn't know what it is, but the following morning when she woke up, she recalled it was like she'd repressed this or didn't have this in her memory, but she worked to find blood on her pillow as well as in her ear. And a subsequent visit to a doctor revealed that there was scar tissue around her ear. So even though this all sounds to be very out of body and very non-physical,

There's something very physical taking place. That's an interesting point because that kind of comes up in the book I'll be doing in the PLOS extension because John Mack wrote a foreword for Rick Strassman's famous DMT book, The Spirit Molecule. And-

Strassman believed that, I don't think he, maybe he covered that in the book, but Strassman believed that DMT could be an explanation for alien abduction. Yes. Because of all the similarities, like you're seeing people take DMT and if DMT emerges in a brain naturally for whatever reason in an individual, they will experience a lot of what people report on alien abductions. Now, Mack responded to this though. And Mack said, he doesn't understand why,

the physical realities of this alien abduction phenomenon. Yes. There's so many similarities. They overlap in many, many ways from beings operating on you to being sucked into some other dimension, even being aboard a craft as reported in DMT experiences. Well, down to the lighting. But...

With these UFO abductions, you've got sometimes multiple eyewitnesses. You've got physical evidence left behind. You've got a situation where someone's abducted and then the neighbors will report seeing a UFO, which the abductee had no idea that there was anything like that. They just remember the abduction experience. So Mac was very firm in that.

You need to really understand the physical reality of what's going on with this phenomenon. And there is some clue there with the crossover with DMT. There's something going on with that.

Well, I think the DMT is used by very physical entities to facilitate whatever they're doing, as opposed to it being the other way around. Because there are militant skeptics out there, people who scoff, people who refuse to even look at any of this, that immediately jump on. If you mention alien abduction, they say, oh, it's just DMT being released. It's the same with near-death experiences, right? Yeah. Oh, it's just DMT being released. There's something going on in the brain. Sure. Sure.

Absolutely, in some circumstances. But further to your point in highlighting what Max said, I tend to agree with him, is that there is this very physical element that comes up if you're a researcher that you find that there are cases of where, yes, someone will report that they've had a UFO abduction and the neighbor will then say, well, I saw a glowing light hovering over their house.

And it seems as though the DMT entities and what people call aliens from alien abductions, they're doing essentially the same thing. They are. The DMT reports, they're operating on the individual. They're sometimes implanting something, activating something. When the individual returns from the trip, quite often they're like, okay, that was weird. And they don't really experience anything. But sometimes they do feel a change. They do feel some kind of change that's been implanted.

But it appears to be something on a non-physical level. Yes. It's something etheric. It's something on the non-physical body. Whereas the alien abduction accounts, it's, I mean, identical modus operandi. It's the identical kind of procedure, but it's done to the physical body. Yes. So the abductee reports having implants, real physical changes. So maybe we are dealing with something of the same origin, but there's like, there's

There's one faction from one area and there's another faction that's decided to interact with us in the physical realm. Well, it's not that dissimilar from humanity when you think about it. Like you have people that go down the very materialistic path and you have people that go down the very spiritual path. And I wonder if, and like both of them have their pros and cons. And I wonder if there is some advanced species out there or a non-human group that has done very much the same thing. It's like they're interested in the physicality of humanity while the other

group is interested in the spirituality of humanity. That's what we've always said about the abduction phenomenon and the UFO phenomenon in general, is that the entities behind it are clearly capable of operating in our physical world and the non-physical dimensions of existence. And they can go and come and go as they please and

And that's why it appears so magical to us, so beyond our reach. And there's also that fascinating overlap as well of where you hear reports of people that take, and it's more in the sense of shamanism, right? Where they go because they're having some type of mental difficulty or they're seeking out support because it's failed in our Western approach. And they describe having implants, like spiritual implants put into them.

to do something, to perform some type of duty, normally for a purpose of improving them. But then you hear of abductees who usually do have very physical implants that are found by researchers. And yet though you have those outlying cases of where an abductee will say that it fits everything in a very standard case of a gray style 90s abduction, but then they'll say that their etheric body had some type of implant put in as well.

And the implant will be removed physically by a researcher. And yet somehow they're still tracked. And they say, well, they have recurrent, you know, abductions. It's because their physical body, sorry, their non-physical body, their etheric body is somehow being tagged as well. Yeah. So that's odd. It's like... And that's why it's so frustrating when you're looking at the whole UFO topic now, when there's so much focus on just the bare basics of...

the craft and are they real? What does the government know? It's like we're so far removed from the origin of the phenomenon. Yes. If it is metaphysical, if it is non-physical, which for all intents and purposes, it appears that it is, we can't penetrate those dimensions. We can't access those. So how are we ever going to figure it out? And that's why when you see what they're doing in Colorado, for example, with DMTX, it's

I think David J. Brown from this book raised an interesting question, which I think would be a logical conclusion in that did the intelligence agencies or even the aerospace industries, when they actually got their hands on some of this so-called crashed material, did they understand that they needed to penetrate other dimensions to fully understand it? And is there some kind of black ops concept

psychonaut program that's been run for a long time. I would not be surprised. The private industry extend trips into another realm for 90 minutes. Yeah. Is there some kind of secret program where they've been doing this systematically for a very long time? I think absolutely. And it's fascinating because it's at the forefront of political discourse at the moment of

is Doge, right? And what they're doing and they're, you know, digging into, you know, alleged corruption or misappropriation of funds or that kind of stuff. And yeah, of course, it's vitally important that taxpayer funds are tracked and like, but that's not the issue, right? This stuff by people like, oh my God, how has this been? The military industrial complex has been doing it for decades. They've been doing it since the end of the Second World War, if not earlier. Like,

trillions and trillions of dollars. Look at Rumsfeld. Wasn't it just before 9-11? Rumsfeld came out and was like an inordinate amount of money, like an indescribable, like in the trillions. It's just

unaccounted for. This is back in the late 90s. Just an accounting era. Oh, it's just a minor accounting era. Just a rounding era. And it's not going to NGOs. Well, not in the traditional sense is what we know from modern times. It's going to fund these programs in the background, these military industrial complex programs. And back then-

20 years ago, if you were to say, oh, well, they're running some type of weird DMT psychonaut program, most people would scoff, would say that's absolutely absurd. You yourself are on drugs. Now I think the general populace is more likely to go,

Yeah. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some kind of secret psychonaut program. Well, look, if they were running RV programs, we know that they were. Project Stargate with the CIA, for example. Of course, there are going to be other interests, three-letter agencies and everything that's under that umbrella who are conducting something similar.

Of course there would be. Like, it's absurd to think that they wouldn't be. Maybe the truth is that every participant got possessed by demons and they had to shut it down. Yeah. Like the Collins elite. Yeah, right. I wouldn't be surprised. And that's the thing, though. And you'll see this in a moment, is that I feel like when we go back to these groups, where

Whether it's the Sons of the Sun or other groups that claim that they're from Atlantean descent, that kind of spiritual Atlantean descent and that we're having to reconnect. These beings, as I've said many times, understand our psychology in such a way that they can manipulate us. And what's the recurring theme that comes up? You're special.

you're chosen. These groups are recruiting people in so that they can, and, you know, working on their egos by you're special, you're chosen to exert their influence over humanity. And whatever that is, I think is far more terrifying than we ever have the ability to comprehend. Truly, like it's truly, if there is a non-human group, they have no interest. I believe they have no interest in humanity because they're non-humanity.

It's not this guiding force that's trying... Because if it was, they would just do it openly. Yeah, it depends on what the... Just because a group is hidden doesn't mean they're evil, though. Not necessarily, no. And just because they're non-human doesn't mean they're evil. But you've just got to look... Oh, I'm a human absolutionist. I'm sorry, but I... Human supremacist. Yeah, I'm a human supremacist. Sorry. You've just got to look at the reality of the situation. The phenomenon operates...

behind the scenes, after dark, it's hidden. It doesn't reveal its true nature. It's terrifying. It shows no compassion. It shows no truth. It's by nature, it's evil. And so that's really all you need to look at. People can speculate and philosophize over what's behind it all they want. But if you look at the outcome of it,

I don't see how anyone could come to the conclusion that it's good for humanity. Think of it this way. It could be something relatively, I would say, it's not specifically targeted at causing trouble for humanity. Let's equate it to what happened with the NIH back in the 80s, or maybe the early 90s, where I think a group associated with PETA, for example, got into an NIH facility where they had a bunch of chimps, right? Oh, yeah. And it was...

The video was horrendous. You know, regardless of what you think of animals, it is hot. They would basically, they had these microwave like structures where they would shove baby chimps in them and keep them isolated, dose them up with HIV and hepatitis. And then they would leave them in those cages for the entirety of their lifetimes. And it was like, oh no, it's for the betterment of humanity. It's like...

It's not the same thing, but it's like the same thing. In fact, that they grab these people, they tell them it's for the betterment of humanity, but they're using us for some greater experiment or some type of betterment of their species, their non-human species and not us. So that, or is it even worse than that? Is it that we're just playthings and they are not even following any type of protocol? It's just, let's get as many humans as we can and just, you

utilize them for what our purposes are. Well, there's definitely a greater agenda. Yes. And again, the frustration comes in with the whole disclosure movement is that we're so far away from understanding that agenda. Yep. Even within the DMT realm, you look at the experts that are interviewed by David J. Brown in this book, DMT Entities, and

They can't agree on the ontological reality of the entities they're encountering. Of course. Only Rick Strassman is plain enough to say and answer the question of do you think these entities are ontologically real, as in they have a real existence, a real tangible existence. He's the only one that says, yeah, probably. I probably think they are. Every other expert researcher is like, well, it's complicated.

Well, it's super, like we can never say for sure, like it's super complicated and you've got to think about this philosophy and everyone sits on the fence. It's like there is this taboo. Now you have some people that are firmly on the other side and say, no, this is all conjured by the brain. And you can see their argument, but all of their argument follows just the old model of consciousness created by the brain.

Just this old kind of Western empirical model, which is very outdated. But the ones, even the ones that seem to have, you know, the clear evidence that this is a real dimension of independently existing sentient beings. Again, they're just like, yeah, I don't know. It's like, it's a lot to think about and it's really intriguing. Because they can't say that. No one just says, yeah, they're real. They exist in another realm adjacent to ours. Yeah.

We can access it. It seems as though they're coming here as well. Yeah. People are too scared to risk their careers and their reputations by saying that despite the fact that physics, you know, modern quantum physics is demonstrating that it's highly likely that there are other realities, other tangible parallel realities. And yet it's not enough to go, well, you know, there are inhabitants of these things that are blending into our reality. No, no, no. That's a bridge too far. Yeah. I mean, all...

All of that kind of goes out the window when you're trying to use these entities created by our brains to discover new technology. Exactly. Like what? So there's just some knowledge which has been hidden inside the human mind and yet it can only be accessed spontaneously after taking drugs?

Like, is that, I don't think that that's- That's probably what that argument- Of course it is. I've heard that argument. That's absolutely what it is. But I think, you know, where you can see further to what we're describing here as to whether this is good or bad is that reality is whether it's people that are abductees, contactees, psychonauts, these sorts of things, has any single one of these figures out of all these decades ever done something which is good demonstrably to humanity? I don't think so. That's a good question.

It's all ego. I mean, most of what the information that's being retrieved from these other dimensions is how to synthesize the molecule directly. To facilitate further interaction. Yeah, actually. And it's funny that you say that because that's what's happening in Colorado. Like the only tangible, real concrete information you get from the DMT realm, and whether it's psilocybin or whether it's salvia or whatever it is,

The only thing you get is how to get humans more easily into that other realm and how to keep them there longer. No one's downloading the blueprints to flying saucers. No one's getting free energy devices from the DMT realm. It's all how do we make it easier for these entities to access human beings? And look, I know people will accuse me of being overly negative, but just think about that for a moment. Like just think about it at a very, you know, logical point of view.

Why? Why is it that if they're saying to us, like, you're chosen, you're important, it's for the betterment of humanity that we do these things to you. And yet we just keep on getting more details of how we can suck more people into them, into their reality.

Doesn't it make logical sense that it's like, it's not good. It's not. Yeah. It's cool. I guess temporarily for you to have this feeling of like, oh, I've access to this other. Why else do people do hallucinogenics? It's to see through the veil, right? Like that's what it's about, but it doesn't do anything. It doesn't bring anything that is for the betterment. All you see is it causes people to get on these very dark paths and it's repeated. So

Let's go back to the story, right? We'll go back to what happens to Nona. So Nona, still after undergoing these experiences, right, these regression experiences where everything is just suddenly...

realivened in her mind. It's like she's in the present when she's undergoing these regressions. Well, Nona brings in her friend, Roberta. And Roberta is kind of sitting there as a support person in the room while Mac is performing the hypnotic regression. And funnily enough, to talk about this idea that, oh no, it's all in her head, she's just a crazy person. Roberta says,

It's really strange, but when these sessions are being conducted, the energy in the room is palpable. You can tell that there is something else energetically in the room. In fact, down to the point where I would say that there is a powerful presence moving throughout the space. Now, that's very telling. Yeah, you hear that all the time. You do. Even in the cases where it's some kind of...

possessing entity that comes out in a hypnotherapy session or even a exorcism. People clearly state everyone that's not directly involved that's in the room is like you can feel that something else is here now. Well, I think people like Nona, they are anchor entities in this reality. This woman has been chosen because she acts for these beings as a doorway to enter into this space. And

And perhaps these entities show up and they're pissed off because you've got someone like Mac. You've got these researchers trying to peel back the layers of the experience, but in doing so, they're revealing their plans. They're revealing what they're doing. Now, look, again, we're still essentially sparrows in the comparison to the intellect of these entities. And maybe it's not even about intellect, right? There was something that was in the Mothman film with Richard Gere.

And there was this keel figure that comes through. It's not said to be keel, but there's this keel figure. It's obviously him, yeah. And it's a very simple explanation for what's going on. These entities, they're not smarter than us, but then they were standing in this city kind of cityscape. And he said, if you're up in that fifth story window-

you can see what's happening over there. You can see much further than we can when we're down on the ground. So it's not about intellect, but it's about perception. And I think that's actually, even though it's a fictional film, I think that highlights truly what these entities can do. They're not necessarily smarter, but they can see more of the reality than we can. Yeah. And that's the nature of the physical realm versus the non-physical. Absolutely. The physical realm you're trapped and you can't see the true nature of reality. The other realms you can. However-

The recurring theme through so many of these stories and all these facets of what it is, regardless if it's a UFO or drugs or anything else, they need the physical. They need the physical. There's something about it. Why?

Why do they need the physical? It's like, why are they flying around? In that last report that we did with the Suns, they're flying around in UFOs and yet they appear to be non-physical. Yeah, I think I would, I understand what you're saying and I think you're correct, but I would refine it slightly and say they need physical human beings. Yes, you're right. No, it's about us. They don't need a rock or a tree. No, no, it's about us. They need human beings. And in fact, going back to what I was talking about last week with, I can't remember.

I can't recall her name, Mabel White. Mabel White was saying that they need bodies.

Yeah. That was a term. Dude, that is one of the, I don't know if I highlighted it from the book, but that is literally what a DMT experiencer is told by one of these entities. I think it's like an octopus that's telling her that, oh no, you have to make sure that you procreate. Like you need to have children. We need more human beings because we need to interface with them.

That's literally what they're told. Look, I don't want to get into the political discussion about Elon Musk because I know that he's a polarizing figure, although I have noticed that he's quite obsessed-

with pumping out kids. That's a great point. And I'm like, are we to think that it's not possible that billionaires and, you know, leading figures, like controversial but leading figures in our reality, are not compromised by these entities? Yeah, he's like the modern-day Genghis Khan, but he's being instructed by- How many baby mamas does he have? Like, you know, it's like there's this term for it, actually. It's called like- it's reproductive abuse or something. I'm not saying that he's doing that, but there is some-

weird psychological thing where people get a high out of pumping out babies. And they impregnate as many women as they can. But it really is this weird ego thing of improving humanity.

All I'm saying is the guy, I have no doubt, has access to some of the highest levels of substances. The transhumanist is following what the entities in other dimensions want. Because that's what he practices in. He's pushing transhumanism. And what's he doing? He's doing it from the perspective, which is very noble, right, of helping quadriplegics and paraplegics. And that's a very noble, wonderful thing. But I don't think it stops there.

It doesn't stop there. I mean, you've got this chip that are being put into people's brains. Well, if you can get a chip in your brain that makes you more competitive, more able than your fellow humans and you're competing in what our society is, then of course you're going to want it. Of course. Yeah. Of course you'll get it. But what if that's being driven by something on the other side, like that story of say, we need more humans to interface with because they're trying to get something that is of the physical essence of humanity. They've got access to everything that's the spiritual and etheric side of

but they need the physical. And maybe that's like the weird challenge. It's like, it's not even religious, but maybe it's like the things that we've been warned by traditional religions that perceive it as being demons and being bad. It's not necessarily that it is that in that sense. It's more though, it's like these things that you can refer to them, whatever you want, don't have the best intention for humanity.

And again, it's not the physical. It's human beings. That's right. They need human beings. So what is it about human beings that makes us unique and desirable? There's something wonderful about being a human being in physical form. But what is that? Is it granting access to get into...

I don't know, the upper levels, the executive levels of the spiritual realm, you've got to go through the physicality. Well, that's, I mean, that's an interesting idea that human beings are unique, that we have a unique connection to God that other sentient beings don't have. We have this divinity, which is something that most of us don't realize and don't appreciate, but clearly is there. And I think that could be one of the reasons why these entities covet the

the human body so desperately is they don't have that connection to the divine. How do we not know the hierarchical system that, you know, we have no way of truly understanding, but how do we not know that these beings are beings that have been kicked out? Because for whatever they've done things or they've, who knows? Who knows if there's a karmic system? I don't know what it is, but they have lost access to

to that gateway through the human physicality to divinity or to this highly desirable state of existence. Yeah, well, I wouldn't say that they don't have divinity because they're sentient beings. Everything is connected in some way. Everything's created by God. So they have a connection, but they don't have the connection in the same way that human beings have. Well, maybe they've been denied it, though. Maybe they are beings in that state because they've done something which is so abhorrent and so

a violation of some type of universal law that they've got no way of getting back in except through using hosts. You think this eyeball jellyfish guy has done anything wrong ever? Look at him. He's innocent. He's adorable. He's totally innocent. Yeah, I'm sure he is. Look at his cute little bloodshot jellyfish eyeballs. Yeah, that's something to rely upon.

So going back to describing these experiences with Nona. So yeah, like you've got this powerful presence in the room and the session comes to an end and Nona apparently from the session was able to pull out more details afterwards. And that's what people say from a skeptical standpoint that, well, you want to go a regression and then all this stuff comes to you afterwards. It must be a, you know, something that's conjured from the mind, but no, I don't necessarily think that's the case. It can be, but it also could be that this stuff by the entities is suppressed and that

by using this hypnotic protocol, it somehow removes that and then slowly starts... Because what happens to people that have amnesia? Like true amnesia is not really real for the most part. Like it can happen, but for the most part, people have it slowly come back to them. It's the same kind of thing. So...

She was cognizant of what this was about for her. And she said that after and following these regressions with Dr. Mac, she started to have more recall of the events that would go over them, you know, kind of in this weird kind of way. And the more that she did,

She started to reason that this incident had actually profoundly changed her in so many ways, but most importantly, in the way that she viewed the world. And on top of this though, this is where you have this connection from a perception and spirituality to she said she felt physically changed. She even claimed that her body was now at a higher vibrational frequency. And I'm like,

Very new age, I know, but I'm like, okay. I've got a story coming up where this woman is, like, in another dimension. She takes a DMT. A mantis just starts operating on her, and she can't escape. She's fully paralyzed. Some giant praying mantis in another dimension. And it tells her it's upgrading her blood. What? It's upgrading her blood, and she goes through this horrible transfusion in another dimension. And when she comes out of it,

She's like, oh man, that was so weird. But then she starts, she's lying in a hammock when she comes out of the experience.

And she says, that's so weird. I wonder what that was about. Like just some kind of weird hallucination. And she can hear these bees nearby. And she has this subtle thought of like, I wonder if I'm more connected to like insect type creatures now because it upgraded my blood. She goes, no, that's crazy. And then she has her eyes closed and she can feel these little things on her face, like little feet.

And she opens up her eyes and she's covered in bees. Like the bees are like on her face, crawling all over her body because she had that thought that she's connected to them. And I read that and her conclusion is like, isn't it amazing how I've been changed?

that I'm more connected to the insects now. And I read that and I just thought, are you insane? This is denial. You want to be transformed so that you're more like insects rather than human beings? Yeah. And see, this is the thing, isn't it? You've really hit the nail on the head there. It's this, I guess, the luring of human beings away from their humanity. Yeah. I don't want a kinship with bees and insects. I want a kinship with humans.

It's absurd to think that this is some kind of upgrade. You want a raid bomb that is the equivalent to the firepower of Hiroshima. Yeah. Like if I spray that chick with mortine, will she start breakdancing on the floor? Ha ha ha ha!

She probably would, but I mean, there's only one way to find out, Ben. So going back to this after she, yeah, she's having this strange kind of feeling, but it's all this, as I was putting up this denial, it's like, it's like an abuse victim. Oh, they're not that bad. You know, it's like, no, hang on a second. You've been physically changed by this thing. And,

Yes, it's a multifaceted kind of approach to these abductions that, you know, you can't just assign one emotion to it or one, you know, modus operandi to it as to, you know, like how they went about it, but also what their agenda is, all those sorts of things. But she said while it was terrifying at the time, she realized that it had been a spiritually enlightening effect.

Now, is that because she just understands that there's more to reality than just the physical? No. That they had upgraded her. Right. By traumatizing her, by firing a beam of crystalline non-physical light into her face. Now she's much better for it. Right. Right? Now, um...

This is a very profound view, clearly, but I don't think it's that profound because she starts to also get this concept of like she's chosen. She's one of the special people who can now perceive it. Do you see the ego elements that are kicking in here? Yeah. And that's often the case with the psychedelics as well. The positive outcome is that people realize there's a spiritual world, but that's only a positive outcome when you come from a materialist society that doesn't have access to those things naturally. Right.

We're so closed off that, of course, some molecule blasting your perception open is going to be an amazing experience. But it's not any real kind of wisdom or anything beyond this understanding that, okay, there's more, which is like the entry level. That's like the ground floor. And I like the word you use there. There's wisdom. There's no wisdom in any of this, right? Because it always hits the abductee bingo card. So listen to what's going to happen.

She has this terrifying experience. She meets Mac. She undergoes a hypnotic regression. She now feels like, oh no, that had to happen so that I've got a greater understanding. I now have a newfound understanding of humanity's disconnection from the earth and each other. I now understand the interconnected nature of all of us.

all things. And of course, what does she start going down? She starts going down, you know, the dangers that humanity is facing, how consciousness is causing us to be alienating from each other, that there's a shift, right? And then there's the cult element that comes in because apparently she starts to discover other people who've undergone the same experience

and hooks up with a lady named Carol. Now, Carol says instantaneously she has this bond, this strong bond to Nona because they both have this incredible energy that's flowing between them and...

They've fundamentally been altered and their consciousness upgraded so that they can resonate with each other. It's like, no, you've just got a couple of people that have been traumatized by this experience and they're now trauma bonded in what's happening here. Trauma bonded. That's what's going on, right? Oh, we're so resonating and we understand humanity now. We can change.

But you know what it does? It doesn't do anything. Yeah. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't cause them to increase the vibrations. They just carry on with all this bullshit of like, raise your vibrations and be like more. What does any of that mean? What does it achieve? Oh, okay. So you raise your vibrations. Yeah. What's it doing? Oh, it's like, well, now I'm more connected with nature. Okay. So what does that do?

Oh, do you see what I mean? Nothing. He does absolute fuck all except create an ego. But in the background, what it is doing, it's facilitating these entities to get into other people because you know what they're now doing? They're now going around new age circles and they're now going around other space. You can raise your vibrations too. You can do all of these things.

that are so ridiculous that it's like it doesn't bring anything to humanity. It just creates these very disturbing outcomes for many of these people because they are fundamentally changed. Kind of reminds me of the DMT performance art. Yeah, I mean, look,

Oh, good. Don't get me wrong. You want to do DMT performance art. Pardon me. Go right ahead. But what does it really do? What does this doing bring to humanity? Turns you into a leftist by the look of it. I'm sorry, but yes. And ultimately, what does the occult say? What's the left-handed path? Yeah, exactly. It's the path to destruction. Yeah.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure the right path has got problems as well. But it's like, I just don't know how this is like, it's positioned in this sense that it's supposed to be this uplifting improvement for humanity. It makes you look like a blabbering idiot. Well, I mean, that's what the Orthodox religions have been criticizing about this whole new age stuff for a long time. They don't get away with a free pass either because they've got a lot of weird stuff going on as well. Yeah, but their criticism is that it's just creating an alternative to Orthodox belief systems. Right. Yeah.

Sure. So it's creating a religion in a sense. Right. So look, let's go back to see what happened. So we know that something did occur because as I pointed out earlier, that there was a confirmation that there was scar tissue discovered in her ear where she feels like there was some physical object. Now, from what I understand, I don't believe they recovered anything physical. And maybe it was because, what have I got here? I didn't highlight it. I think it was removed after...

And now we hear this in abductions, right? We hear abductees. It just dissolves. They start talking to researchers and the implement either that's in their body somewhere either starts to move and go deeper or it dissolves. Or in some reports, the beings, these entities come in the middle of the night and perform like an abduction because I've got to pull the thing out. So that, you know, what's his name? Um,

John Lear. John Lear, Avi Lobey, I don't know if I pronounced his name correctly, can't retrieve it, can't pull it out. Jacques Vallée, they don't want them getting hold of that. It's like they don't want them having, and that I find to be weird in itself because how many times have we covered the chemical analysis and mechanical analysis of these things?

And they find like weird isotopic ratios and the material and that kind of stuff, but it's never conclusive. So why are they being so hung up on getting these things? Like, why do they want to retrieve them so much? The actual... The actual implant. Well, with the actual implant, what probably makes it function is not, again, not physical.

Like there's a physical representation of it because it's in the human physical body, but maybe there's machinery in another realm that we don't have access to. Yeah, maybe. And maybe that's where it is. And that's where it starts then colliding with stories that you get from people that are taking DMT and other such substances because they do. It's like we see it as an outsider.

And as someone who has never used DMT, we see it as being something that I think when you conceptualize it, it still is very much in the brain. It's just like, oh, I mean, we've all had fever dreams. We've all had, you know, like fevers that cause us to hallucinate certain things or hypnagogic experiences. So you go, oh, well, it's definitely non-physical. But when you're in that space, from what I've read or from, you know, even when you're having hypnagogic experiences, it's very real.

It is very real. And so if it is a real reality, well, then it would make sense that they have real non-physical, physical technology. They have technology. That they're using. So it's, look, it's very unusual. And I'll link to this article in the show notes at mysteriousuniverse.org so you can read it. It does seem to fit this continuing pattern though of being connected with these beings and

But for the most part, like it really comes back to, I feel like just many of these people are being messed with by these entities they're being interfered with. And there's many great examples of it. So trust the jelly eyeball, Aaron. No, I'm not going to trust the jelly eyeball. The jelly eyeball could be your God. No, I know. He can give you so much knowledge.

What does it mean? Of how to access the jelly eyeball more regularly. Yeah, that's actually a good point. Why would you want to regularly access and interface with that thing if it's just going to tell you... If it's just going to tell you... But for what purpose? It could be with you always. Whenever you have some kind of tribulation, the jelly eyeball is like, this is what you do. Yeah. And he's like... In your head. Yeah.

He can always rely on wisdom and spiritual guidance from the jelly eyeball from the DMT dimension. But that ultimately brings you absolutely nothing. Do you see what I mean? And when you die, you'll go to the jelly eyeball dimension and join his kingdom. His kingdom in the DMT realm. Isn't that what you want? No, it's not. Like for any of these people, what does it bring to any of them? It brings nothing. So I know I'm running a little bit long, but I wanted to

then mention like the more physical aspects of this stuff, because further to the question I asked before, it's like if these non-physical beings are moving about, why wouldn't they move about in non-physical transport means? It's probably faster and more convenient.

Is it? And it doesn't, it means that you can transverse time because if time flows differently in another dimension and you want to get somewhere really fast, you just go into the other dimension where time flows differently and then pop back out. Yeah. And it looks like you've teleported. That would make sense, right? So then why do they have UFOs? To access other dimensions.

Yeah, maybe. Like you need a vehicle. Yeah, maybe. But it's a physical vehicle. Like it's manifesting as a physical vehicle in our reality. Well, yeah. I mean, maybe you need a physical vehicle to manifest in the physical dimension.

Yeah. And you could argue, you can even go further from that and argue that the grey itself, the grey alien is the physical vehicle. Oh, it is.

And use them as a kind of tool to interface with this physical realm. But it's in fact, there's mantis-like beings that are behind the alien abduction phenomenon. Yeah, absolutely. Because how often do you hear that? You know, reports of people interacting with, like David Huggins is a great example. You know, he was interacting with what initially appeared to be gray-like creatures, but there was some freak mantis standing in the corner, rubbing its weird pincers together, watching him having sex. They're always overseeing it.

They're always overseeing. And you're right. It's like that's- That's the conclusion of David Jacobs. That's the conclusion of a bunch of other researchers we've covered over the years who have a broad perspective on the whole reporting of this from abductees over the years, that those entities are the originators of it. Yes. They're what's behind it. Yeah. So this week, actually, Marcus had a great write-up on our website, mysteriousuniverse.org, about these more obscure UFO crashes that

Now, I'll just link to it so you can read. It's a very long form article. What's it called? So it's called From Farmland to Deserts to Mountainsides, Lesser Known UFO Crashes from Around the Planet. And I noticed this weird parallel, actually. Well, there's not any direct mention of what we've been talking about with the spiritual side of things. It's very much about the nuts and bolts kind of stuff. This article's huge. Very, very long. Has he figured out we're paying him per word? Yeah.

Man, just padding it out. Oh, there's great stories of this. Really great story. I'm getting paid for this one, he says. Look at it. Oh, he's a great researcher. What it starts to fit in with, though, is this weird claim that, because when you talk about a UFO crash, if you were to mention a UFO crash to most people out in the field that are even just remotely interested in this, immediately, what do you go to? You go to Roswell, right?

Roswell is the case that people go to. And then you start to, when you dig a little bit deeper into some of the stories, it's like, well, Roswell wasn't that they had some type of weird radar technology that was actually to bring down UFOs. No, no, no. These beings, these entities purposefully crash UFOs so that we can recover their technology and utilize it because

Because what does that technology do? It allows us to further interface with them and them with us. And that's... It's a great idea. I think it's probably true to some degree. So do I. And further to the argument that, again, there's another layer of that technology that they control, which we can't understand, which we can't even see. That's right. Yep. We cannot see it. There is like a etheric layer to that technology that where we're reverse engineering it, they've got the kill switch. Right.

They can turn it on. We only see the physical side. And once it's impregnated into humanity, into what we do, that's how they take over. It would be like us going to some kind of alien planet and introducing them to software that we have a backdoor to. That's right. Yeah.

And everything that they develop in their entire society runs on this software. But we have the encryption keys. We have the backdoor. We control it. Yep. And so it doesn't matter how advanced or how built up they get or what they derive from this software. Ultimately, it's our technology. Yep. And we control it. Yep.

to the utmost degree well one thing that became quite apparent in these reports that marcus was covering uh and it's interesting because there's a number of reports in there that relate to south africa and i start thinking about people like cynthia hind for example who you know for many many years did a great deal of research into the experiences of south africans in regards to not just seeing craft you know ufos but also interacting with the entities there and you find these uncanny parallels with a different culture different part of the world

But the core of the experience parallels those of the rest of the world. It's like it's the same phenomenon going on, but perhaps interpreted in different ways. But the reason why I mention it is because with many of these cases, there appears to be a team that is deployed to these locations.

Like all around the world. And we know that the British, you know, there are whistleblowers that claim that the UK had some type of rapid response group. We know that the U.S., but this is what really comes up. In many of these reports, you have the local military being deployed, whether in these cases it's the South African military, but then you have the Americans show up. Yeah, the same reports out of Puerto Rico and... Everywhere. Everywhere.

And these groups, right, you find that these groups, some of the key figures that show up at these cases, like we get names, we get names and details of these people. And you find like in the South African cases that they were associated with, and it's almost like it's the facade program that they're connected with classified, but an open secret kind of like, or they're part of recovery teams that are used for recovering people.

down Soviet satellites so that they can reverse engineer the technology. Right. That's the cover story. It's like, well, the Cold War ended in 91. I mean, I know that there was some little bit like, why is it that in 94 or 98 that they're still deploying these Americans connected with these things to recover Soviet tech? There's no need. Yeah, that's an interesting idea. There's no concern that the Cold War's over. Why are you doing it? Get a new cover. Because it's a cover.

And that's where it goes back to what I was talking about all this funding. It's like, oh yeah, it's so shocking that all these funds are being sent. They've been doing it for decades. And you've got to think if you're some South American country, for example, with a much smaller GDP than the developed countries in the world and you have a crashed saucer.

You'd be like, what do I do with this? What are we going to do with this? They don't necessarily have the means to do anything with it. It just becomes a burden. And then along comes the United States and says, look, we'll take this off your hands, keep it secret. Here's a trillion dollars, whatever, a billion dollars. Here's a billion. Oh, here's a free deal. Here's a few bribes to the generals, whatever you need. Yeah, whatever you need. Because you're right, they lack the capability to be able to deal with these technologies. But what's...

But what I find in these cases is that not only is it to retrieve the technology, in some of these cases, like the craft that crashed. And so these are cases that are happening all over the world outside of Roswell. They're obscure, but there's a lot of information connected to them where we can go, I think they happened. I think certainly something happened. You've got Tony Dodd, who was a renowned British UFO researcher who was embroiled in this. There's a really great example. Let me just tell you this case just to finish up this show. So Tony Dodd

received in the summer of 1989, so still at the end of the Cold War, it wasn't quite over. He received this letter with the South African postal mark. And obviously he was very intrigued because back then it was unusual to get foreign letters in his field. So he opens it up and he finds these documents inside from a sender who claimed that they wished to remain anonymous, of course. Now, Dodd claims that as soon as he saw the documents, he suspected immediately that there were forgeries because he's like, oh, there's errors within the text, there's spelling issues.

But for whatever reason, he couldn't explain it. He felt compelled to go back and read them in their entirety and look into it. And unlike other forged documents, which he had received, like it's just a hazard as any UFO researcher, you get a bunch of attention seekers and tricksters, people that want to create trouble, not tricksters in the sense of non-human entities, just people being dicks where they send fake stuff. But he's like,

There's something odd about this. I can't quite work out what it is. But these documents contained this remarkable account, including detailed information about a downed craft and two occupants that were retrieved from it. But the occupants that were retrieved were alive, right? Very Roswell. It's got this Roswell feel to it because that's some of the rumors about Roswell is that there were three entities aborted. Two of them were dead, but one was recovered.

And Marcus Loth points out that this is a recurring theme in a lot of cases of downcraft. There's always three people, well, some people, three entities. It's like, do they have a pilot, a co-pilot, an engineer? Is that what's happening? What's going on with this? They have two disposable ones and another one to...

speak to the locals. Yes, maybe. So eventually, Dodd, who was intrigued by this, he gets in contact with a bunch of, and as you, again, being a UFO researcher, you've got contacts. He gets in contact with military people, whistleblowers, that kind of stuff, in both South Africa and the United States, who confirm the information to him. Like, the details are accurate. So on the 7th of May in 1989,

Apparently, an unidentified aircraft entered South African airspace. Moments later, Mirage fighter jets were scrambled to investigate and intercept. Upon locating the object, they received orders to engage and shoot it down. Apparently, they did. Again, though, it's the old trope, but you've got these super advanced aircraft and they're being brought down by just a standard missile? Maybe, but I don't know. This is where people go, it's deliberate.

like it's being done deliberately. But this thing came down in the Kalahari Desert, approximately 80 miles from the border of South Africa and Botswana. And according to the documents, only minutes later, a unit from the South African military was at the crash site. They also had a fighter jet continuing to circle until they actually arrived, like protecting the site. The documents also describe how the area was so hot that the sand and rocks had fused together.

It had been glassed, possibly from the energy output of the propulsion systems of this craft. But also, the military reported that their electronic equipment malfunctioned when they went into this zone where this craft had gone down. Now, they say that the object itself was made of a highly polished smooth silver surface. Very typical of these reports, but

We notice that these reports have this recurring theme. It's this same shiny exterior, which comes up in many of these cases. Of course, there was no bolts, no seams, unevenly spaced portholes around the outside. Some form of landing gear was visible, but the craft had clearly crashed, like it was damaged. There was some kind of hatch that was visible, and eventually they were able to force it open to discover two crew members inside,

both of whom in this case were still alive. They were both removed from the crippled aircraft. Each wore tight-fitting gray suits, sparkly in some circumstances. In some of these reports, they seem to be rather frail, but at the same time, they were strong. Obviously, the description is fitting with what we might refer to as a gray alien. Now,

We find out from this case that Dodd dug deeper into this. Eventually, the witness reveals himself to be James Van Groenen, and he meets with Dodd in South Africa.

And apparently he says that he was receiving threatening phone calls as soon as he got in contact with Dodd, despite trying to remain anonymous. And of course, Dodd wants to know, why did you send fake documents in the first place? If you are a whistleblower and you're connected with this, and Dodd did a lot of research and he's like, yeah, this guy seems to be legit. Why would you send fake documents? And after pressing him on this, he was like, well, look,

Just so you know, what had happened was a friend of mine is with these retrieval groups or within the military that knows of these retrieval groups connected back to the US, of course. And he snuck these documents out to me.

On the condition though, because the guy we found out that Van Groenen, he was a South African UFO researcher. He didn't have any direct contact except for this friend that was in the military. This friend was like, you can look at these documents. I'll smuggle them back in, but you are not to copy them. You're not to photograph them. You're not to do anything. So what Van Groenen did is that when he was going to send the documents to Dodd, he recreated them, he claims, from what he could recall, what he had committed to memory. Okay.

And so that's why the details did match with Dodd's other sources. So it seems like this was very real is that

But guess what happens, what you said before? The South Africans, they can't deal with it, right? They very quickly made a deal with the United States to trade the wreckage in return for nuclear technology, something which at the time international law prevented them from owning. In a further twist, Dodd also discovered that it was an American intelligence source that had alerted the South African military to the fact that the object was even in their airspace in the first place. They'd been monitoring it.

And they just threw this like pathetic nuclear technology. Probably a few cases like that where over the world, the Americans come in to clean up and take what they need. And I like the stories from some whistleblowers where these retrieval teams just go out and it's just like a landed saucer or craft.

with no one in it. Yes. Mint condition. Mint condition. Just landed in the middle of nowhere. Basically with the manual sitting open so you know how to start the thing. A little bow on it. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. It's like beware of what's the saying? It's like be wearing those bearing gifts. You know, it's like, yeah, what? It's just sitting there like they just got out. So look, I will link to this in the show notes. The last thing I'll mention, which I know is a headline and I've kind of gotten away with myself. But what a great example in many of these cases is first of all, they use the classic line,

It was a weather balloon. Even though despite the fact that there's hundreds of people in a local town or a village that see this thing, they go, oh no, it's a weather balloon. But there's a really great little case that I believe was also in South Africa of where this thing came down. Once again, this highly shiny material, it was seen by a bunch of farmers and other villagers.

the military comes in, retrieves the thing, right? But not only do they retrieve it, not only are they a cleanup crew, because apparently people found like weird circuits and wires and crystalline structures and kept them. And of course the cleanup crew came through and cleared it all out and took a lot of it. They dumped a bunch of shiny painted like silver bolted

They got a bunch of rocks, painted them up in this lustrous silver kind of paint and just dumped them all around the place. Who did? The military? The military, the cleanup crew, right? And then the weeks following when people were like, oh, I've got artifacts. They're like, oh no, you've just got shiny rocks that someone dumped there.

Do they really think that anyone's going to... But clearly they did believe it, though. That's clever, though. You plant a bunch of fake artifacts that look kind of technological. You know, you get some tubing and spray paint it silver. There you go. Yeah, and blame it on a hoax. And that's where it comes back to. Very clever. So, look, I'll link to this in the show notes at mysteriousuniverse.org. Make sure you go and check it out. And I know we're going to continue this form of discussion in our Plus extension, Ben, when we go into the Illustrated Field Guide to DMT Entities. Well, when you're on the website, go to mysteriousuniverse.org forward slash plus.

And you'll see our subscriptions. Of course, this isn't the end of the show. Every single Friday, we do a lot more. We've got a huge extension coming up after this. We're going to be going into the illustrated field guide to DMT entities, machine elves, tricksters, teachers, and other interdimensional beings, including octopoids and all sorts of weird stuff. They're the worst. Jellyfish eyeballs. See, he's on the cover, the jellyfish eyeball guy. Yeah.

He could be your god, Adam. No, I would take my chances with the gnomes because I'd at least kick their faces off. I could deal with that. You'd join the gnome cult? Yeah, the other entities. No, I'm not in. There's a pretty hot mushroom lady coming up as well.

She's like a mushroom humanoid. She's all slimy, but she's kind of hot. She's coming up. It's all on mysteriousuniverse.org forward slash plus. Check it out. Sign up today. Get access. If you sign up for our MU Max tier, you get access to our entire back catalog going back a long time, 16 plus years of shows. Plus members also get an entirely exclusive show that comes out every Tuesday as well, including a high bit rate feed for our plus members, totally ad free version of the show.

And again, yeah, MU Max gives you the back catalog. So sign up today, mysteriousuniverse.org forward slash plus. That's a wrap for this free edition of MU. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. If you're on plus, stick around for the great stuff after the break. For everyone else, we'll catch you next week. Welcome back to your plus extension. Great to have you with us.