33.16 - MU Podcast - Memories of 2545
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Welcome to Mysterious Universe, Season 33, Episode 16. Coming up on this show, we've got The Intruder's Curse, The OBE Loading Room, and Astral Voyages to the Year 2545. I'm your host, Benjamin Grundy. Joining me is Aaron Wright. I see your book has got a preface by Anthony Peake. Yes. That must be good. Anthony Peake wrote the foreword to this new one. Just came out, Out-of-Body Experiences, Explorations, and Encounters with the Astral Plane by Samantha Lee Treasure.

Can I zoom in? Yeah, there she is. There you go. I had to cut out her name. But yeah, this just launched. And of course, Anthony Peake, one of our favorite authors, because he wrote the foreword, I thought I'd check this out. It's really good. Is it about...

her experiences or is it more of a guide to a collection of experiences? Well, it dances between these two approaches where number one, she's acting as a researcher and trying to get to the bottom of the whole phenomenon and she... A difficult task. Well, she gives a fair shake to both sides of the coin in terms of the reality of the whole experience. Like she's interviewing people who their whole theory, you know, scientists that have been studying it, is that out-of-body experiences are

you're kind of experiencing a mental map of the subconscious where, you know, there's some kind of, it's like a reconstruction. It's not like you're actually visiting a real tangible place. So that's a little bit controversial in itself because many other researchers would suggest that you actually are experiencing another plane, another existence, another reality. Well, just because it's a mental map, that doesn't mean it's not another reality, but it's, the idea is it's constructed from reality.

an amalgamation of all your memories, even subconscious memories you're not aware of.

But the other side of the coin is she's had hundreds of OBEs herself, and they started from early childhood. And so it's this great back and forth between this kind of, a lot of it is materialist research, with these genuinely mind-bending anomalous experiences. And one of them that I really want to zero in on today is she's been having these recurring dreams her entire life for as long as she can remember.

And these dreams would, she would appear to be in some kind of future landscape. You mean as in futuristic or just in her future? Futuristic. She would find herself in like a super neon Blade Runner-esque Tokyo.

Well, that's just Tokyo. But she's like a five-year-old in England. Right. So she'd have very little concept of what Tokyo would be like. Yeah. Dreaming about this future city. But what was strange is these were recurring dreams and this other universe she was visiting was always stable.

So she would always go to the same shopping center and she describes it. I'll get into it. Like stairs going up to the second level and there's a food court. And she describes like these weird futuristic planes that are transporting people everywhere. And there's no customs. You just jump on and like the Jetsons, you get zipped somewhere. And over time, this kept expanding where this world was really fleshed out. And these dreams didn't feel like normal dreams. They felt, you know, realer than real.

And it eventually got to the point where Samantha started to experience OBEs, out-of-body experiences.

And, you know, many of them are like the OBEs we've heard where she'll be floating in the corner of the room or she'll go somewhere strange and be floating over a landscape or, you know, she doesn't even have a physical body. She's just this floating consciousness. A lot of them were like that. But many of the dreams or the OBEs, I should say, sorry, she would find herself at this strange underground mall in this future Tokyo.

And she would have control. A recurring location. Yeah, this recurring location in these OBEs. Have you ever had that in your dreams? Do you ever find throughout the years that you seem to return to a similar location? Yes. You do? I'm always going down a really steep hill and I know I'm going to die.

And then I wake up. Is it the same location? I'm driving a car. There's trees on either side. It's a really steep hill. And I'm like, I'm going to die. There's no one going to survive this. Then I wake up. And that's a recurring dream. I wonder if that's like a past life memory trauma or something. It sucks, whatever it is. Mine sucks because through my entire life, but ever since I was a kid, I can recall this. But the fish tank changes. And what I mean is that I find myself in this place. It's just white. Like it's just this, it's like paper white. Like the Matrix loading room? Yeah.

yeah, but not that bright. Right. So it's like this white kind of space, but in the center of it is this massive fish tank that's on like wooden legs, like on this just very simple, like wooden kind of structure. And sometimes the tank is spectacular. Like it's all sparkly and there's all colorful fish. Other times it's dirty. And in this weird dream, whenever I come to this place, I'm like, Oh,

I forgot to feed the fish. And so what I do, I have to go and feed them. And then the next time I come back, they're all happy and it's all clean again. It's really surreal. So it's persistent. It's persistent. And it's been happening for decades. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing with Samantha's future experiences with this, well, this future Tokyo, it was always persistent. The universe was persistent. And as she got older and as the years went on and she started to have more out of body experiences and she did certain training protocols, she did the Robert Monroe stuff and other things.

That universe, which was persistent, started to flesh out to the point where it gets completely sci-fi. Like she's going to another planet. She's having interactions with this woman and having discussions about what happened to humanity over this 500 year period. It's wild.

And so, yeah, it's a really fun book. I can't wait to go into it. It actually reminded me years ago when we did that very early episode where we did past life regressions with a hypnotherapist. With Marla Nicholson-Smith. Right. And you had this experience where you went back in time to maybe a previous life where you were a ship. I remember that image in my mind of standing in that hut or that wooden building, but it was cold or it was cool and it was gray outside. And I can remember looking into the distance.

and seeing these ships, like it was part of a shipbuilding thing, and looking down and there were literally blueprints in front of me. It wasn't entirely blue, but it was like it was a different kind of material. Then it was like, and I can remember the smell of tobacco smoke. And it's really weird. Even after all these years, that was 2009 that we did that, I think. Yeah, and you got the details of the carpet on the ship, like all these weird little details. But what people might not remember is because you were so under,

the hypnotherapist said, okay, let's take you to a future lifetime. And you described being a depressed businessman on some kind of Tokyo subway waiting for this futuristic train to come in. Isn't that strange? Because my memory is stuffed, but that, for whatever reason, I remember so vividly. You bringing it up right now, I can picture it in my mind. And it was right. I seemingly jumped forward to this place where it was like a tube type system. It was underground and there was this

hum. And it wasn't an unpleasant hum, but it was just like a hum of some type of

like I would assume power, right? But there was, it was this futuristic like train that came through. I can't visualize a train, but there was some train, but I was depressed as hell. Everyone else was depressed as hell as well. It was like every, all anyone did was just work and work, but we're in these black business suits and it was just like, and everyone was quiet. No one was saying anything. Everyone had their heads down. You're a depressed salary man. I was just so depressed. I'm like, Oh my God. Like,

I hope that isn't a future life because I don't want to go there. That's not a place that I want to be. But she ended up in a similar location. Well, it's just, it's funny that these experiences seem to emerge in some people where it's, it's almost like a parallel existence. The idea of the many worlds theories, right?

come up in this episode. Yeah, people are critical of past life regressions, and I understand as to why. It makes sense because the brain can conjure a range of really wild and crazy things. But in saying that, and we've heard stories, I believe Marlene Nicholson-Smith also told us as well that she's had clients, pink dolphins on Alien Worlds and that kind of stuff, or formerly Jesus, or the Liz Taylor of the Ming Dynasty, all that kind of stuff. And that you could go...

you're probably attention seeking, you know, you probably make it up. But in the experience that I had, if I was going to be projected into some future life, like why would it be like this incredible, like Futurama style, like tubes where people could go from one part of the city to the other and a fumatic vacuum or, uh, and I'd be amazing, like not a depressed businessman waiting for a lame train to come along, but that's what emerged. And I'm like, that's strange. Well, like it's really intriguing when more people, uh,

Yeah. Start to experience this future construct, this future world. Well, see, that's considered to be connected to soul groups as well. Another new age concept. But I lean towards that because I think it ties in with the idea of karmic bonds, of like you've got these karmic bonds that you create with people where you have a balance, where you have to balance that out. So it would make sense that you travel through incarnations with each other to balance that karma. But the fact is, is that if you've got similar people reporting past life regressions or future life regressions,

that aren't directly connected to each other, they're reporting the same thing. That suggests to me that there is something to that idea of soul groups moving together. What have you got coming up? Well, I'm going to go into actually this incredible story of... It's the last place I expected to find this story. It's of a woman who...

I believe she's still alive now as well, but she must be in her mid to late 90s. But back in the 1960s, 1968, she had this strange experience when she held an astrology party, right? And I'll go into the story in the plus extension, but she essentially has this astrology party and gets a pissed off tarot reader who...

slams it with a curse. What is an astrology party? It was because she was a party girl. She was a socialite. And so what she would do is hold themed parties. So everyone gets together and reads their signs? Yeah. The way that it was set up, it was like she put up all the zodiac signs all around and got a lot of palm trees and soft lighting and candles and had people showing up with crystal balls. And everyone was just basically drinking with this astrology-themed party.

But something goes very wrong with a pissed off tarot card reader and it results in this curse. But it got me thinking, actually. It reminded me of another story that I was reading only recently. And

And the idea of the energy that we were talking about on the last show, about how we were talking about Nick Cook and his understanding of the interface of this space where people seem to interface their consciousness with paranormal phenomena. And I was thinking about it like, well, how is that powered? What's the substance? And one thing we speculated upon was plasma. It's like there's a plasma.

Well, there's an old term for plasma, which has been around for a very, very long time, which I'll get into. The ether? It's the ether. Yeah. Yeah. It's the ether. But there's something to that where if you disrupt the ether,

It sends out a shockwave, like it kind of propagates throughout it. And this might explain things like the hitchhiker effect and why curses seem to be able to be passed on from one person to another. Oh, yeah. And why if you're cursed, but then your family members are affected by it as well, it's because of this propagation of this ego. I think I know where you're going. Yeah, we'll go into that in the plus extension. Okay. Well, let's get into Samantha's new book, Outer Body Experiences.

It's not available yet on Kindle, but the paperback is available. Okay. So, you know, I got an advanced copy. That's very, very good, as I said. And, you know, Anthony Peake wrote the foreword, a bunch of interviews in the book. And she starts off with these early experiences. I mean, with a lot of these people that are interested in OBEs, often you find the cases they've had their own experiences in childhood. That's the author there on the screen. Well, so frequently you hear of these people just thinking that this is totally normal.

They expect that everyone has these experiences. Well, the way she describes it is interesting. She said it would happen sometimes when she was lying in bed at night. She would feel dents. Like she said, her skin would feel thick like a worm, like

She said it was as if I was made of a slowly drying cement. So she's getting heavier and heavier. She said sometimes the feeling was unpleasant and I would want it to end. But when I was feeling braver, I could observe it, she said, as long as I kept my emotions under control. She said the first time it happened, my mom assumed that I must have had a fever and said I was delirious. So that basically stuck. Whenever she had this feeling, she would say, Mom, I'm feeling delirious again when she wasn't really delirious. She was just having these odd experiences.

And she remembers once she came down and said, mom, I'm delirious. She says, I feel like my arm is up there. She said, I know my arm's here, but I feel like it's up here, like 10 inches above her physical arm. Dissociative OBE? Yeah, she was having these weird sort of body perspective things going on. She's not sure when the episode started. She just remembers being young.

But she often wonders if it had something to do with an experience her younger brother had. Well, these things tend to run in the family, don't they? Yeah, well, he was, I think...

a lot younger, like six or seven years old. And he'd been taking an afternoon nap in the living room sofa one day. And his name's Michael. He suddenly stands up and says, I was outside. Mom, I was just outside. And she's like, you were just dreaming, honey. Because he was just lying on the couch, snoozing. He says, no, it wasn't a dream. It was real. It was 100% real. I was outside. And he starts describing their elderly neighbor as

uh walking along towards their house with a cheesecake in her hands like she's walking to them with a cheesecake and the mother's like okay yeah fair enough nice dream anyway a few minutes later the doorbell rings the mother goes and answers it and it's the neighbor with a cheesecake and it was that moment she said that cheesecake moment something clicked in her eight-year-old brain

where she felt like it's possible to stay in one place but go outside. It's like something, the possibility of it became real. And she felt like she had to learn to do it. She didn't want her younger brother to have a superpower and for her not to have it. So she begs her mother to take her to the local library. And again, this is like early 90s, you

you can't there's no internet of course she doesn't even know what this idea is called yeah i doubt that even have an occult section as well well she goes to the library and there is like a weird mystery section and she happens across this book called psychic voyage and it's one of those time life series books but in there is a section on astral travel and she reads that and realizes okay that's kind of what my brother is describing and so from that year onward

And she became obsessed with this for a period of like, you know, four to six weeks. She would just be so focused on doing these out-of-body techniques to try and get it to work. And she would do this year after year after year. Now, she didn't have an NDE, but something did strange happen. Something, sorry, something strange did happen to her six years later.

At the time, they were living in a farmhouse in the countryside. And over this kind of nine-year period, this was from, I think, 1989 to like 1998, people in the house were seeing apparitions. And it was like kind of the typical English ghost sighting where it's like some old person in Victorian clothing.

Like her mother saw some woman in a rocking chair who disappeared. And, you know, her father saw some guy in an old suit walking by the house. Like just some weird things like that. And it turned out everyone in the house except for her had seen something weird.

She had a technique to try and avoid it. She didn't want to see a ghost. So what she would do, she called it something like the blanket cocoon, the blanket force field, where she'd pull her sheets up over her head and she'd cut a hole in the blankets so she could breathe through it with her mouth. And this worked until one night she was 14 and she wakes up, it must be one or two in the morning, and the blankets aren't tucked over her head. They're folded like someone's come and tucked her in.

Now, she said this had never happened before. It's not like her parents would come and do it after she fell asleep. She's never experienced this before. And she said, I was lying on my left side facing the window. It's the first time she doesn't feel afraid at night in the house for some reason. She feels calm. She feels comfortable. And she notices the room is blue. Everything's glowing blue. And she says she turns over to her right side and there's someone sitting on the bed.

Legs stretched out, you know, hanging over the bed. Someone she knows? Well, she says my eyes move slowly upwards from boots to blue jeans to this blue checkered shirt and finally to the face.

This guy was staring straight ahead as if daydreaming, but then seemed to realize I was looking at him, she said. He flinched and looked down at me, smiling. She said, I'm not sure why, but my first instinct was to reach out to touch his arm. So when she does this, the figure disappeared. So that was her first experience, this blue ghost. And this was at 14? This was at 14. Yeah. It's a lot to take on for a teenager.

But nothing happened after that. She, you know, went through school. After school, she went to Japan to work for a couple of years. She came back. She was living in London, you know, had her own flat. And this is winter 2009. And this whole time, like, she'd been periodically trying the OBE stuff, like doing the meditations and doing, you know, Robert Monroe techniques and, you know, to varying degrees of success, but not much was happening. But, um...

This one cold night, it's winter 2009 in London. She had dragged her mattress to the mezzanine in the house because it was a little bit warmer. They didn't have any heating, so it was just freezing in there. And she says, each night for the past two weeks, I'd been doing the astral projection technique from the Monroe Institute. She said, I hadn't had any success, so I decided to give up and go to sleep normally. The next thing she knows, she's downstairs at the front door. Like no...

Physically, she's downstairs? Well, yeah. She just goes to sleep, opens her eyes. She's downstairs. Is she teleported? How did I get here? And she thinks, I've never sleepwalked before, but maybe this is the first time. Then it hits her. She says, well, she asked the question, am I even at home? Everything feels slightly off. Everything's slightly different.

She said, had I wandered into a neighbor's place by accident that had the same floor plan, like maybe I accidentally went to the neighbor's house. But she reasons that can't be true because the doors are locked. They lock automatically. This doesn't make sense. She tries to retrace her footsteps and it never occurs to her that she might be out of body.

Because everything she's been reading, everything she's been studying over the years talks about the usual symptoms. Like you feel a vibration. There's a humming sound. There's a whoosh, a pulling sensation. You're out of the body. Well, you feel the process. You might be floating around as an orb. Or you look back and you see your body lying in the bed. Yeah. Or you see a silver cord or something. She didn't experience anything like that. So it never even occurred to her she might be out of body. But there were some clues.

She said as she made her way down the hall, she felt abnormally light, like her footsteps were really light. Again, everything was washed in blue, this blue glow again. And she said as she was going up the stairs, she went to grab the banister and this horrible sense of foreboding just came over her, like danger, something's wrong.

And she starts to process this feeling and thinks, I'm seriously in danger. I need help. And she thinks of her flatmate. It must be a Japanese guy. His name is Daisuke. And she thinks, I've got to get to Daisuke's room and wake him up. He'll be able to help me. He'll know what to do. And so she goes up to her flatmate's room and she slowly pushes open the door thinking about what she's going to say to him and apologize for waking him up. But she opens the door and he's not in there. This flatmate's missing.

Instead, there's three men she doesn't recognize in her flatmate's room. Doing what? She says two are standing at the balcony door and one's sitting on the bed facing me. And when she walks in, they all kind of look at her. And they don't acknowledge her or anything, but they notice she's walked in. They look at her and then they just like ignore her. She said all three seem nonplussed by my presence. This sounds very dreamlike, doesn't it?

Yeah, something's obviously something's not right, but she doesn't know. So she starts to panic. She's running through these thoughts. I'm definitely in somebody else's flat. This is bad. This is bad. She looks down on the floor. She sees her flatmate's gym bag. So she realizes, no, this is his room. Where the hell is he? Now she knows that her flatmate worked for a Japanese bank.

So she assumes he's been kidnapped for ransom or something. And these are the kidnappers. That's a bit extreme to assume that though. That's just what flashed in her mind. So she confronts them. She's like, what have you done with him? Where's Dice again? Where is he?

So she feels like she had to do something. She knows she can't take on these three men. In response, the man on the bed laughs, stands up and starts moving in a direction. She tries to flee for the door. He grabs her. When this guy grabs her, she's electrocuted.

She feels this electric pulse flowing up her arm. Her whole body's vibrating. Her ears feel clogged. She says, the more I resist his grasp, the stronger this electric shaking becomes, the more intense the ear sensations. And she's like, am I having a stroke? Am I having a seizure? What's going on? Is he zapping me with something? This electrical feeling keeps going until she's back in her bed thinking, what the hell was that? She gets out of bed.

I think her flatmate's asleep in the bed. She doesn't wake him up. And again, she makes no connection to OBEs because she didn't have any of the hallmark things that she had expected from an OBE.

So eventually she figures it out. Like eventually she realizes, okay, this must have something to do with the Monroe Institute program meditations I've been doing. You know, it's not uncommon for people that dabble in these programs as well to describe something very similar. This spontaneous out-of-body experience that people have after they've been like practicing it or utilizing those methodologies for a long time and getting nowhere and actually getting frustrated with it. And it's almost like they give up and then

It's like they're out of their body. And all those tropes that she expected, even though we've heard them time and time again, they're not always apparent. They don't always appear for everyone. Everyone's experience is slightly different. So over the next three years, she tried to understand everything she could about these experiences. She ended up having over a hundred more out-of-body experiences. And from there, she starts documenting. This is where the research part kicks in, where she's documenting the...

The history of OBEs, the history of the research. She talks about the Society for Psychical Research in England. She talks about early research on apparitions, doppelgangers. She goes into isolation zones in chapter three. So this is the idea that when you first go into an OBE, it's almost like a loading room, what you're describing, where it's just something familiar and recognizable. Yeah.

And then essentially there's portals out of it. So one loading room would generally be your bedroom. But then you might exit the bedroom door and wind up somewhere else, completely alien. So is that where she was when she was in that blue space? So the space that was lit by the blue light? She's not sure. Really not sure. She goes into the idea of mental maps, the connections with lucid dreaming. Like I said, it really is this good, you know,

deep dive into the research that's available. She speaks to a Dr. Cecilia Focato, this biologist from Buenos Aires. She specializes in OBEs. She believes everything related to OBEs is memory. It's all to do with memory. And she's done, she's currently doing studies where they're trying to pull information out of OBEs that are subconscious. And she had an experience where she went in an OBE to a building she had visited years ago, but forgotten about it. And very,

verified the pattern on the carpet. Yeah. The whole pattern on the carpet thing. I don't think that, and when we tend to put OBEs into their own category, but they're not that dissimilar from precognition, retrocognition or remote viewing. You know, it's like, it might be a different category

of accessing the same type of information. She interviews this woman named Jane. I've got her on the screen there. That's her bedroom. What's with all the mirrors? Well, she has OBEs all the time and she uses the mirrors. Like a Mario painting? Yeah, they're like gateways to other worlds.

And if she doesn't have the mirror, she can't do it. Some people describe these things opening spontaneously or a door appearing and then they walk through it, they go somewhere else. But she has some form of control over it, she claims, by placing these mirrors everywhere. And yeah, just like the Mario paintings, you dive in and you're somewhere else. I thought that was pretty cool.

She discusses cross-cultural occurrences of OBEs. She talks about this paper from 1978 that compares all these different cultures and how they look at OBEs. In Malta, for example,

Only if you're born on Christmas Eve can you have an OBE, but only then you can only do it on Christmas Eve. It's really weird. Weird. There's these really weird cultural beliefs. A lot of cultures believe that only certain people can have OBEs and they've got to be shamans. They've got to be witches. 46% of the country or the people in the survey claim that anyone can do it. Yeah.

32% believed you can only travel amongst the earth. 68% believe you can travel spirit worlds and other worlds. So she goes into all this stuff. She talks about Kundalini vibrations and sound that's involved. And it's all very compelling, like really great research. And anyone that's interested in OBEs, I would definitely recommend picking up the book.

But it's not really show fodder. And at this point, I was thinking of pulling out... Well, it's anthropology more. Yeah, it's a very... It's an entertaining study, but it's not really fun stories that we do on this show. And I was ready to back out, put the book on the shelf, keep it for reference and call it a day until I got to chapter nine, which is entitled My Future Tokyo Experiences. Okay, this is intriguing. She said, once I started to embrace the OBEs,

you know, that happened both as soon as I laid down to sleep, she said, and in the middle of the night, I noticed that more often than not, I would feel pulled from my lower back until I ended up in what I came to call future Tokyo. Well, that's classic for out-of-body experiences. What is? Being pulled from your lower back or, I mean, sometimes it's from the back of the neck, other times it's from the top of the skull. She's got a chapter on this, again, when all this research section where she's talking about the Mingmen point.

which is the acupuncture point at the lower back, precisely where she felt it. And the Mingmen point is a really important point in Eastern medicine, in Chinese medicine. It's literally considered a gate. And so it's locked shut. And some of the esoteric ideas surrounding it are that supernormal abilities and certain powers that naturally developed within human beings are

that might lay dormant, for example, that gate keeps them locked up. And if that gate can be blasted open, the potential capabilities of human beings or the individual are unlocked. It would suggest to me that there's a reason why it's kept locked up. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the natural state, I guess. It's all locked up for a reason.

She says, I've had dozens of these experiences. So she feels this pulling from that point and winds up in this future Tokyo looking something like this on the screen. This is just AI. This is not from the book. Like I said, it just looks like Tokyo. It's like Akihabara. Yeah. I just plugged this in. She said, these experiences, they happen so often that I was worried at times I was going to lose my mind if they continued. She said they seemed so real.

I felt hesitant to include this part of my journey in this book, but it's an honest, although slightly off-the-wall illustration of what can happen when you practice astral projection. Right now, the Home Depot has spring deals under $20. So no matter what you're working on, the deals are blooming at the Home Depot with savings on plants, flowers, soil, and more.

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and what GMC has done for over 100. We are professional grade. Visit GMC.com to learn more. Assembled in Flintern Hamtramck, Michigan and Fort Wayne, Indiana of US and globally sourced parts. She said, basically, I came to the realization that I may have been seeing the same world that featured in my recurring childhood dreams. So again, this started, she started seeing this when she was a toddler.

She said, in these dreams, I'm in a shopping mall. A common dream template. You know, a lot of us dream about shopping malls. We're a consumerist society, she says. Does she see a depressed Australian guy being a Japanese businessman in an underground tunnel? Yeah, it'd be funny if she ran into you. There was the most depressed salaryman ever, catching the train for the billionth time. But she said what was weird is that there was no symbolic content.

It's not like the dream world would morph and change like regular dreams, right? This was consistent, stable world. She says the mall is always the same. It's open in the center. There's a long escalator to the food court on the second floor. Above the shopping mall is a hotel. And below in the half-lit basement, there's a multi-story cinema. It's got a really kind of garish, tacky entrance, she says.

If you continue down a low ceiling tall and make a left, there's a video arcade with faux rock walls. She describes an ice cream parlor that's always there. She says there's winding stairs that go up to this small shop and there's an entrance to this grassy area. There's pools of water, kind of a glass building looming overhead. But over the years, because it was so stable and she could explore more of this mall, she

new features. She would discover new features and these would appear in the OBEs and these recurring dreams. What do you mean by new features? Well, she started to see this kind of futuristic, almost like an airport annex, but it wasn't really an airport. Like there's no security or anything, but she said you would go there and there were these strange little planes that would fly people to different locations. She said one would seat around six passengers and there was a larger one that would seat about 20 passengers.

And she says it was like a shuttle bus, but it was flying. She said they're taken as casually as buses. She described like a square wooden glass building, four stories, kind of looks like an Apple building, but with wooden edges, conference center on top. So all these details, again, 100% stable, never changing. It's like a real tangible world.

And most of the dreams and OBEs are uneventful. Like she would be walking around trying to, you know, remember what's up the stairs or what's around the next corner. And she would try and listen in to people's conversations and hear what language they were speaking to try and get a sense of where she was. Now, she would often hear Japanese, sometimes Korean. She heard French once or twice.

For some reason, though, in these experiences, she always knew or felt that she was in Japan, but she wasn't sure why. Because there was no egg slot or heavenly wang. So otherwise she'd be in Singapore or mostly any other part of Asia. I'm sure there's egg slots in Japan now. Probably is by now. She said over the years, the shopping mall dreams expanded.

When she got into her 20s, she could actually leave the mall. She got outside and then she realized 100% for sure, oh, this is Tokyo, but it's future Tokyo. It's like built up. It's crazy. She said the sky was gray. The canal and buildings were pretty drab, but I felt like I was home, she said. And this is what's weird about it. Every time she'd go to this place, this is a woman that's, you know, born and raised in England.

And she's going to this place in Japan, this future Japan, and it feels like home. Now, a few years later, she was living in Vancouver. Actually, maybe she's Canadian. Maybe I got that wrong. But her mother advised her to move to China or Japan for work. And she initially wanted to move to South Korea because she was interested in the language. But ultimately, because she'd studied programming, she does go to Tokyo and she works for three years in Tokyo. And she says while she was physically living in Tokyo...

It's not like she got deja vu or anything. It's not like she was there and realized, oh, this is from my dreams. Nothing like that. Nothing at all. So why did she go to this dream future place and feel such an affinity for it?

She said these dreams were both a comfort and a source of entertainment throughout my life. I never thought of them as anything more than a psychological creation. And that's really how she dealt with it. She's like, okay, you know, this is just my mind pulling from movies and sci-fi. To be so fixed is unusual, I would have thought. Yeah, it is bizarre. She said our reason that the mall came from my favorite show as a kid, etc., etc. She was obsessed with Sailor Moon when she was younger.

She said, I usually saw everything from a first person perspective, but other times I would see myself from outside, like a 3D third person perspective, kind of like a video game. And she said, I was most often in my early 20s with long blonde hair. So she looks something like this. She said, even though my hair went from light blonde to a darker color in my teams, I figured that in these experiences, that was me, that I was looking at me. Very anime style, isn't it?

Well, again, this is just the AI that I'm just thinking though, like just even like the style. I'm wondering if somehow she's drawing upon, because you said she had an interest in Sailor Moon. I guess she extrapolating upon that somehow. That doesn't explain the dreams she had as a toddler. No, that's true. She said to my surprise though, when she started having out of body experiences, this is from her mid twenties onwards, two significant things happen.

Firstly, the dreams continued, but that world where the future Tokyo is started to expand. So she started to experience England, the United States, locations in South Africa. How would she get there? Would she use that little plane thing? No, just in OBEs. She would just find herself there. She said Tanzania was one place she landed in. But was that futuristic as well? She said she just knew it was from the same universe as the future Tokyo.

Does that make sense? No, it does. But if she's saying she suddenly dropped in Tanzania, for example, has it developed like the Japanese world? She doesn't say. She just knew it was in the future. It was from the same world. She said, secondly, my OBEs were often located in these same locations. She says it's difficult to put into words.

But both the dreams and OBEs had this same quality of realness that other OBEs and other dreams didn't. Again, they just felt real. She said they had a different level of immersion. Now, in her normal OBEs, her second body was either exactly like her own or it was invisible. You know, she's just floating around. Like I said earlier, she pops out of a body in her room, float around.

you know, that's usually what happens. But in the future Tokyo OBEs, she says it was a totally physical world. Like what you and I experience in the three-dimensional world, in our waking consciousness, she was seen and heard by others as well. So in the OBEs, often you run into other beings. They don't see you. They don't interact with you. You're invisible or even animals don't see you. She's got a whole section on that in the book.

But in this other future Tokyo, people are looking at her, interacting with her. Is she speaking with anyone? Yeah. She has conversations. She goes shopping and it's totally bizarre.

She says, it took me a while to realize it, but I seem to have varying levels of agency about where I went or what I said. Sometimes when she's in future Tokyo, it's like she's a passenger. It's like she's the subconscious of this being and she's just riding along. Other times she has full control. Like she's fully conscious. Um,

Sometimes she's taking a backseat. Sometimes she's the driver, she says. So do you get the sense that she feels like she's like a demonic entity for, not demonic, daemonic entity for like another lifetime that she's in? She doesn't say that, but that's immediately what I thought of. Like she's going to some future incarnation. Incarnation, yep. And she's like the assistant soul or the daemon or...

Maybe a possessing spirit. Like we don't know what's going on, but it's weird, isn't it? She said my assumption was that I was always me changed. So she describes this experience where she's in future Tokyo. She's going to a salon. She had to drop something off. And while she's in the salon, she turns and looks in the mirror and she realizes, holy crap, I look totally different to how I thought I looked. It's not actually me.

Because this whole time she had seen this blonde woman from like behind third person or being inside her, you know, view, inside her view first person, but never actually looked in a mirror or looked at the face. Now for the first time she realizes this is a totally different person. This is not me in this experience. Isn't it said that you have difficulty looking into mirrors when you're in dreams?

Isn't that what's reported? That people can't see their makeup when they look in dreams? I guess I've heard that before. Yeah. So the fact that she can kind of make out a different form suggests to me that this isn't a normal dream. Well, again, mostly these are out-of-body experiences. Well, this is what I'm saying. It's like we're trying to validate whether or not, because this really could be like a wild, crazy dream.

But the fact that she's been having a lifetime of OBEs and now she's having just subtle features that suggest that it's not a dream. It's like, is that what's occurring here? Well, this was happening so frequently. She realized I've got to piece all this together and try and make sense of this. And so she starts putting a lot of conscious energy into trying to understand these experiences. I don't think you're going to be able to though. Well, the mall, as they continued, the mall experience became less and less frequent because

But she said everywhere else she went in this world, again, purely consistent. Like even the technology was consistent in this world if she went to like England in this world versus this future Tokyo. For example, they all had phones, but they were scrolls, like LCD scrolls, and they would scroll out from this little device. She said the woman with light blonde hair was always this other woman, like 100% consistent, like aged slightly, but never really changed.

Her activities, though, the things she did in this future world were all over the place. She said her jobs included working in a hospital spa,

fixing the water utilities of the city and offshore, questioning an old lady who ran an insectarium in a city swamp while people in hazmat suits waded in the water. I had to just make that in AI. So there she is. What? Questioning an old lady who ran an insectarium in a city swamp while people with hazmats waded in the water.

And she said, I sometimes saw this woman swimming or running track at a military facility. She said at first these locations were all completely different in my mind. But when she actually wrote down the list and tried to really think about it, there was a theme that jumped out with all these experiences that this woman is doing. It's all related to water.

Everything is a connection to water. Like she worked at a hospital spa, fixing water utilities, the city swamp that's on the screen now. Sometimes she saw her swimming. Always something to do with water. So is she like a water quality monitor or something? I don't know. It's bizarre. So there were other recurring figures in the dream as well. She didn't always just see this blonde woman that she thought was her.

There was a pilot who was a friend of hers and she would always run into him. And again, he was consistent. There was an athlete that she kept seeing who looked genetically modified and her favorite. She kept on coming across this Android. There's this weird Android she kept seeing in this future Tokyo, um,

She said the general world was corporations, especially in this future Tokyo, corporation governed different parts of the city. So it wasn't like the government we have today. It was like a corporate control. Well, that's what they say we're heading towards is that we won't have national governments. We'll have corporations. Well, the reason I did an AI image of the android with a rifle is because...

because she said these corporations had their own militaries. They had their own garrisons. And there was this dystopian undercurrent to the whole world. She said there were squads, refugees, there was a cult that was trying to infiltrate the society. She said there was really funny things as well. Like there was people that prayed to Santa Claus, like Santa Claus was their God. There were these strange, cheerful androids that the kids loved, but the adults couldn't stand because they were so cringeworthy.

Jar Jar Binks bots or something. Yeah. And she's like, I got to write a sci-fi story about this. Like she seriously considered writing all this down, creating a novel out of it. And it reminded me of the shows we've been doing recently where these famous authors, this is the kind of stuff they talk about. Like this is what Tolkien spoke about with Lord of the Rings. He wasn't creating something. He was remembering something. He just rediscovered something. Accessing a realm. Yeah. Accessing these memories. Yeah.

And so I wonder if the difference with her is she's not a fiction writer. Yeah, that's the thing. Maybe this happens far more frequently than we realize for people, but they don't do anything about it because, yeah, like their profession isn't to be a writer. I mean, people are living their lives. They've got to, you know, life's tough. You've got to pay to put, you know, food on your table. You don't have time to indulge in these sorts of things. And maybe one of the key differences is she's having OBEs, whereas Tolkien and the other writers we've spoken about, they're just having drinks. It's a little bit different. Yeah.

But then the story just gets wild. More so. She describes the most extreme synchronicity of her life so far, which was when she worked in Tokyo, she worked at a bar.

you know, serving drinks, waitressing, whatever. And while she was working at that Tokyo bar, there was another girl that worked there named Lana. She was Romanian and they kind of knew each other. They were kind of friends, but not super close. Anyway, she leaves Tokyo. She's back in London and she gets a job at another bar. And after a couple of weeks of working there, that bar in London has a new employee.

And it's Lana. It's the same girl from Tokyo. It's this Romanian girl. And she says the businesses weren't related. It was just this really weird synchronicity. We both ended up at this bar working. And I guess it's not that wild because, you know, people apply for jobs. You end up going to the same bar. But anyway, they became fast friends because they knew each other from Tokyo. And over lunch one day, this Romanian girl, Lana, came

She just casually mentions that she's been having these strange dreams her entire life, these weird recurring dreams. And she's like, yeah, I'm having these dreams about a hotel and there's a shopping mall underneath.

And I've been having these dreams since childhood. And she explains to Sam that in some of these dreams, the lower level of this shopping mall has flooded. And she's with a group of people that are climbing this, you know, stairs or an escalator to get to the next mall to get away from this flood. And the man in front of her tells her his name. And when she looked it up when she was awake, she learned that it's the name of a Korean water god.

That's weird. Lana had also heard Korean in these dreams, but like me, somehow this Romanian girl, even though she'd heard Korean, she knew she was in Tokyo. She was convinced these dreams her entire life had been of a future Tokyo. Isn't this insane? But why does she know it's Tokyo if they're speaking Korean? Again, it's like Samantha saying she just had a knowing. Right. She just had a sense that it was Tokyo. Yeah.

So they keep talking about these dreams and Samantha doesn't let on all her details. And she's like, you know, write some of this down on a napkin. And the more she spoke about it, she said, the more I realized this Romanian girl's dreams matched with mine. She said, we started to finish each other's sentences and napkin sketches over the next hour, during which I started to wonder whether this world had really been created by my mind or whether we were tapping into or remembering something real.

What an insane story. And, you know, it's getting to the point where the Romanian girl's like, yeah, you go up the stairs and you turn around and Samantha's like, the ice cream parlor? She's like, yeah, the ice cream parlor's there. I know all these details. This is absolutely bizarre. Is it possible that there's some telepathy going on between the two of them and that they're tapping into each other's...

Sure, you could make that argument if the Romanian girl's dream started when she was working in Tokyo. But she says, she maintains she's been having these dreams since she was a toddler. Now, she then mentions Robert Monroe, his, I think this is his first book, Journeys Out of the Body from 1971. So Monroe discussed this concept of the I there.

This is his term for it, the eye there, where the body he seemed to take over each time he went to this place called Locale 3. It's like a term he used for an Earth-like place that wasn't our Earth. It was like somewhere else. During these experiences, Monroe had no access to the memories of this other individual he was in, but was aware of the emotional patterns of the past.

And she's reading this and she's like, this sounds really similar to what I'm experiencing in future Tokyo. Monroe dismissed that this was some kind of constructed reality. Monroe said it might be a racial memory or some other kind of memory of a physical earth civilization that predates known history. It might be not the future. It might be the ancient past.

It might be another Earth-type world located in another part of the universe, which is somehow accessible. It might be an antimatter duplicate of this physical Earth world where some things are slightly different. And so Anthony Peake, she mentions, discussed this as well in his book, The Out-of-Body Experience from 2011. He wrote about Hugh Everett that challenged the whole Schrodinger's cat paradigm.

where the cat's both dead or alive until you observe it. Everett was the guy that said, no, no, no, the observer, as soon as they make the observation, the universe splits. Correct, yeah. Right? So this is the multiverse idea that all these possibilities have separate universal existences. So Anthony Peake in this book, he describes how this can apply to out-of-body experiences.

And Monroe, the idea is that Monroe had somehow melded his mind into one of these parallel worlds with another version of him. Yes. It's like a parallel world version of him. Now, we also discussed this with Bruce Moen's book, Voyage Beyond Doubt. Now, if you missed that episode, Bruce Moen studied for years at the Monroe Institute. And he described this experience where he

You remember he met this like gray looking being in an out of body experience and he followed a tube connected to it. And he was in this weird dimension with this giant disc and he zoomed in on one of the nodes and there are all these like conscious little orbs.

But he realized that this was a representation of the being he was a part of. And each nodule was split off, connected to another version of him in another multiverse. Yeah, so it's experiencing multiple realities at the same time. Yeah, that's the idea. It's like the master soul is split off into all these nodes who are experiencing different parallel worlds.

And so she's researching all of this and ultimately she's like, this is too crazy. I'm just sticking with this is some kind of construct from watching too much Sailor Moon because I can't handle the potentiality

potentials of these other possibilities it's too crazy it's too late because the fact that she's met someone else who's describing the same space it that eliminates the possibility of it being a a construct unless there's some weird telepathy going on in the end she's like well maybe it's just coincidence that my romanian friends is dreaming about the same future exact same location and she admits she's like well i'm just doing this to hang on to reality because it's too crazy

But these OBEs continue. And she says, after meeting Lana again, my suspicion is that this was an objective real place. It increased tenfold. She said, in some of these experiences, I felt like I was in complete control. As I said, like she was fully driving. At the beginning of one of these OBEs, she was walking into this hospital and she goes into this dingy hospital room and

And she looks out the window and there's like an overpass with, you know, futuristic cars flying past. I kind of tried to do it in AI, but it's not really what she's describing. There's a robot nurse? Yeah, there's an android on staff. There's this weird android. And she doesn't want to waste any time because these OBEs don't last long. So she goes to the android. She says, okay, what year is it? And the android says, well, we're not entirely sure. But our best estimate is it's the year 2545.

So Samantha's like, what do you mean? You're not sure. What do you mean? You don't know what year it is. Did something happen? What happened? The android responds and says, well, they aren't sure, but they do know that in 1993, a statue in Washington fell. She's like, that isn't true. I was alive in 1993. There's no statue in Washington that fell. What's going on? And the OBE finishes it. She continues on her way.

Did a statue of some kind fall in 1993? Not that she knows about. And what's an obscure answer anyway? What would that have to do with this future world evolving the way it did? Well, the only thing I'm wondering is, does it suggest like a change, you know, a political landscape or something which resulted in...

a disaster. That's an interesting idea. Like that was the kickoff point. You know, someone toppled a statue and then society crumbled and that's why we don't know exactly what date it is. Yeah, like the American empire failed in the 90s and then this new path, the new world order was established. That's an interesting idea. So that's a whole other parallel world. I mean, that kind of makes sense. In 2016, she got bronchitis, took a few weeks off. She didn't have time for that.

Yeah, she started to have lucid dreams and OBEs every other day. There was three experiences where she met that blonde woman that she was in this other experience face to face. What do you mean? Well, she said the first one, she feels these vibrations. She floats out of her body. She finds herself going through a tunnel and meeting this woman. But the weird thing is they're not on earth. She said we were on some pink, dusty planet.

She said, this was the first time I could see her from the outside and this woman could see me. They're having this meeting. She said she approached me and I was able to ask her some questions. She looked so real, she said.

I was amazed to look at her in detail. She said she could see like some of the cracks in her skin because the climate was so dry. And there was like a reflection of green off her skin because the boulders and the rocks had some green mineral in them. Like it was a totally alien planet. And there's like Tiberium in the background. Yeah. She said, I was finally able to ask a question that had been on my mind since this started. She asks this woman, are you my descendant?

because I see you all the time. Now, the woman, matter of factly, as if this is so obvious, says, no, I'm you. She says, but my blank is the descendant of your blank. I'm the only one who doesn't see you. Well, I've only seen you two or three times. She feels you around her a lot. Now, this is such a bizarre sentence, but my blank is the descendant of your blank.

I was like, why did you write it like that? What does that mean? Your daughter? Yeah, like my mother is the descendant of your great-grandmother. Cousin, like what is it? Your great-granddaughter, sorry. She said in this experience when she's talking to this woman, it's not in English, but she feels like it's being translated on the fly. Does she say what language it is? Is it Japanese? No, she doesn't really know. It just felt like English.

But those blanks, but my blank is the descendant of your blank. There was no translation. There was no concept. There's no word for it. So there's, it's like, there's no, not only is there no word for it, the con, because if there was a word for it, like,

You would expect at least the concept to exist, but that doesn't exist in our world. So that's suggesting that this is something astral, something spiritual. Who knows? It could be anything. It could be my clone. But we have a concept for that. Yeah, exactly. So what could it be? Well, I think this is more spiritual. I think this ties into the idea of reincarnation. Well, she said, I got the impression, yeah, our minds were automatically translating. She says, I'm still not entirely sure what she meant by this.

Uh, is she on earth? She asked referring to this blank. Oh no. The woman said as if it was the most obvious thing in the world. Of course she's not on earth. Um, she said we spoke some more. She was interested in talking about the engine of a space vessel and she just started to explain. She had just started to explain how it was possible. We were the same people, uh,

When two young women walked up and handed her something in the shape of a credit card and started to talk to her. And this woman got distracted by these two other people. She's like, hello, you're about to explain everything to me of how we're the same person. She said the woman looked over to her and gave her a warm smile as if to say, just hang on a second. I'll be with you in a second.

But then she faded away. Like she was back in her body. Oh, it's such a tease. And she says she's like screaming at the ceiling going, I want to go back. Take me back. I nearly got an answer. So frustrating. During the next two experiences, she said, I suddenly found myself awake. And, you know, she wasn't sure if it was a lucid dream or an OBE, but again, felt so real. She's now with this woman again.

But this time they're on a different landscape. She said there were black rocks everywhere. They're facing this kind of bleak landscape in front of them. And Samantha said she knew she probably didn't have much time. So she asked, what's it like being you? And this woman said, well, there's two things. One, we're so mechanized. How do we know we're not machines? And two, how did we get like this?

Such a strange statement. What do you mean? How did we get like, she doesn't even know why they're the way they are. She indicated the environment around her. Like maybe that's what she's referring to. How did we get like this? And then points to this bleak landscape. She clarified that they didn't have any history of how humanity got to where it was. And in an exhausted tone of voice, she also said that she had been in the military for nine years and was sick of it. Isn't this bizarre?

Like, they're so mechanized, they're not sure if they're machines or not. Are these androids in the future? But it's all- Think they're humans? Is it some kind of evolved AI that destroyed us and they don't know where they are? It's classified. They don't know they were created by humans. While very dystopian, it's all very plausible for what's going to happen to humanity. Like, this is what we talk about so frequently about us, our reliance on materialism, the way that the world is going. I think there could be a potential that there's some type of catastrophe

In the next, God knows, maybe the next hundred years that causes humanity to fall. But maybe there's remnants that climb out of it. And then that's what we get. And that would make sense as to why they don't know the year. They know they came from this previous civilization. Or we were hit by a meteorite. Wouldn't you just start a new date?

Well, maybe there's enough information, there's enough people survived that remember. Yeah, right. But they don't remember exactly and no one can agree on it. It's fuzzy. Yeah. Yeah. It's a wild story. She said a week later, I had my final face-to-face encounter with her in a strange computer room. And she said they had...

She said normally information in this world is in some kind of holographic display, but she was in almost like a museum with this woman. And it was like flat screen panels, kind of like what we have today. Before the disaster. Yeah. And she says it was like an archive of the old internet. And using this archive of the old internet, she explained a lot of things to her, like

That athlete she kept seeing who was genetically modified, like the history of that, this pilot she kept seeing, like who he was, like a bunch of stuff was explained, but she said she couldn't bring it back with her. She couldn't retain the memory of what was explained to her. It was, it's all kind of fuzzy. She can't quite understand it. She just knows that things were explained. And so she just went back to this idea of like, am I just making this up? Is this just a construct? Yeah.

Now, the kind of worldview she ended up landing on is that this future world that she's having these experiences in, these out-of-body experiences, these recurring dreams that this other Romanian woman was experiencing in her recurring dreams that maybe other people in the world are experiencing as well. That would be wild. She came to the conclusion that that is the real world. And what? This is a simulation? The world in which she's writing this book is a simulation.

So what, it's so depressing and dystopian in the future that people escape into simulated realities like this? If you're going, why would you create this? Well, she explains that one potential would be this world is like a test. It's like a trial by fire. She said it might be like you're going through an HR program to get a job, but they send you to this world in a simulation to see how you go. That makes sense. She said there's all these scenarios.

But she kept on coming back to this sense that when she would be there, that world felt realer than this world. But that's not that unusual. It's so many people, not just this type of experience, but near-death experiences, multidimensional experiences, even lucid dreaming. People say it's realer than real.

So is that just some weird thing because it is in your head that for whatever reason it's so close to your brain or to your senses that somehow it tricks your brain into going, this is actually real? Yeah, I think you're right. There's something about shedding the flesh body, shedding the flesh mind that gives you more clarity and you have an enhanced experience. So it's natural that it would feel real and real because you're not trapped in the flesh body. So-

Yeah, I think that's an important point. That doesn't necessarily mean that that other world is real. No, but it also... Doesn't mean it's not either. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. So, yeah, I just love this story. And the only downside is she has no conclusion. She still doesn't know what it is. And she said while she was working on this book...

The OBEs that sent her there, they kind of stopped and the dream stopped. That's weird. So- You know what that sounds like though? That sounds in a very distant way-

Like monks trying to achieve enlightenment because it's like they go through these meditations and they try to hone and they focus, right? And they potentially have these superhuman experiences or these supernatural experiences. And then it's like that old story of where you suddenly get really close to having enlightenment and understanding and you're like, oh my God, I'm always there. And then it all goes away. Yeah.

It's not that dissimilar to what's happening to her. Like she's going through this process of where she's about to find out and then everything kind of shuts down. Yeah. Or I was thinking there's something about the state of mind you have to be in to pull all the research in and write a book that took her out of it. So maybe, I mean, maybe they'll come back. I really hope we hear more from her about this whole future Tokyo experience. And I'd love for her to interview her friend, the Romanian friend, to just clarify some of these similarities. It makes me think though that she wasn't meant to share this.

And that's why the dreams and the OBEs stopped. Access has been cut off. Again, the book is incredible because she goes everywhere and researches all these aspects. There's a great chapter on alien abductions. And because she was studying anthropology, she didn't believe in anything to do with aliens. And she was so intellectually honest about it. She thought that's a blind spot for me. I want to train my listening skills and listen to some of these people who claim they have these experiences. Locked up.

And the way that turns out is wild. I might save that and tell you after the plus break because what happens is crazy. But I want to mention this trip she makes just to kind of sign off on this segment. She makes a trip to Russia in 2024 because she wants to visit the Republic of Tuva. And she's friends on Instagram with this woman from the Republic of Tuva. And the Republic of Tuva is in Russia. I was about to say, it sounds like a former Soviet country.

you know, what would you call it? Block? Yeah. Apparently it was the last region to join the Soviet Union. And so they retained a lot of their traditions. They're ethnically Mongolian, like it's on the border of Mongolia. So they look like Mongolians have the same cultural practices. And we've spoken about how Mongolia is like shamanism century. It's the same here. So she goes there with this friend, Sayana.

who's one of these Tuvan shamans. And it's a great section of the book. She, she goes and interviews a bunch of practitioners and they talk about, you know, these astral travels from their perspectives and their whole thing is, you know, a lot of them say everyday people shouldn't be doing this. It's too dangerous. Um, and she says like, there's a lot of black shamans that take advantage of people as in they do evil practices. Um, she says that,

There's a real danger when untrained people do it because there's a chance their soul can be damaged or an entity can get in control of them and all these things, you know, stuff we've covered in depth before. But there's a section where she goes to interview this shaman named Ainara. It's not her. That's another woman on the screen there. But she interviews this woman named Ainara and she starts explaining these visits she's made to the future Tokyo.

And this Russian shaman is really intrigued and starts asking her a lot of questions about it. Like, you know, how do you get there? And she starts describing being pulled from her back. She's asking, like, are you in control when you go? Are you sleeping? Are you unconscious? What's your physical body doing when you're doing it? Like all these questions. And it finally gets to one of the last questions where this Russian shaman is like, have you ever dabbled with magic before?

And Samantha says, oh, you know, when I was a teenager, I did a little bit of white magic, you know, just dabbled. And this woman's like, puts her hands on the table and just steps back. I'm out. Well, she, her attitude is, ah, that's what happened. So she explains that, um, I'm sorry to tell you this, but you lost your soul.

What? So in this region, it's not the Western idea of a soul. We think of the soul as kind of connected to our mind, but they have this word, it's called the sunazin, and it's like an aspect of your soul that can travel. And it's like a part of you that can leave and go other places, but it's vulnerable. It can be lost. Your true soul can't be taken or damaged or lost, but this sunazin can. And so this shaman explains to her that

When she dabbled with magic, she says, a spirit has probably latched onto you as a child and is showing you these places. And little by little, as you're paying attention to them, this spirit is taking your soul.

So this is the price you pay. That was the diagnosis from this experienced shaman. She says, when your sunazin goes on a journey, it's very easy to lose it. Here in Tuva, it's okay because us shamans, we can call it back. But in Western countries, it's easy to lose. Well, in Western countries, it doesn't exist.

Yeah, well, we still have it. Like, obviously, we still have it. No, no, no. But what I'm saying is we don't, we as a collective in the West don't believe something like that exists. So it's like, how can you protect it if you don't even know it exists? Yeah, right. Exactly. And so Samantha plays along. She doesn't necessarily buy this, but she's like, okay, so if I wanted to get my soul back, what would I do?

And so this shaman rips off a piece of paper and she starts writing a script like a doctor. She's like, okay, you need milk, yaks milk. You need the heart of the spleen of a goat harvested under the full moon, like all this ridiculous stuff. And she says, meet me next day at 11 a.m., bring 20 pounds and we'll do a soul retrieval.

And she said to her, this shaman said to her, you shouldn't be doing these out-of-body experiences. You need to stop. She says, it's dangerous because when your soul leaves your body, each time it does it, it touches the grave. And there are beings in the spirit realm that can take your sunazin, that can take your soul. Yeah, this is what we've commonly speculated about in the past, about out-of-body experiences and people that practice that kind of stuff of like,

We say you leave your body behind, like you leave your body unprotected. It's not like you've got a car alarm, you know, you set when you go to your body. It's like, but there are reports of people that are, you know, exploring the other realm and they come back and literally things are trying to climb into their body. Yeah. And they're fighting them off. Battling like all the major OBE writers who have experienced these things and written about it. There's not one who hasn't written about dark entities, malevolent entities. One Nicholson. What was his name? Not Nicholson.

Oh, he's the guy that the sometimes I want to leave my body guy. Oh, Graham Nicholson. Graham Nicholson. Yeah. She interviews him for this book. Oh, does she? Yeah. Because he's the only person that we've spoken to about out of body experiences where like, have you encountered anything like dark or negative? He's like, no. Oh, he actually addresses that. Does he? Yeah. He claims that because he mainly deals with the scientific field,

He just never runs into that. But I don't think that's true. I think he does mention some experiences with dark entities, but he says the people that he works with don't necessarily come across those things because they're coming at it from this scientific research perspective. It's when you get into the spiritual realms that you start to come across the darkness. But it's a great section of the book because she was actually intercepted by the FSB, which

the secret services or the intelligence arm in Russia. Because she went there and it's like the middle of the war. She goes there in 2024 and she's like pulled into this cafe by these FSB agents to grill her about why she's in the country. And she explains like, I'm here interviewing shamans thinking she's going to get deported or worse. And amazingly, one of the FSB agents is like, oh, you've got to go see like

this woman, she's the best shaman or go and see this guy. He's a good shaman too. The FSB actually recommends shamans to her. I'm so surprised that they're just so understanding of those concepts. Well, it's the culture there. They're probably like ethnic people in the FSB. Like they're probably, you know, they look like Mongolians. Anyway, she books in with one of the recommended FSB shamans and

And she says, an hour before the appointed time, I was on my way to a cafe to do some writings. She said, I crossed paths with a wolf-like dog.

strange, like this really large wolf-like dog. It suddenly charged at me and tried to snap my leg, like this out of nowhere, this wolf was trying to attack her. She said she luckily grabbed her backpack and kind of fought it off, fended off this giant dog. And she said, I spent the next 10 minutes shaking and looking over my shoulder as I walked in the other direction. She said 20 minutes after the incident, I was in the hotel lobby when a man walked in

and just started staring at me intensely, she said. He then sat at the next table and kept on looking at me. She said he was wearing dark, traditional clothes, covered in dust, as if he had come from the countryside. And he had amulets and animal claws draped around his neck. She said this man stared at me for the next 10 minutes or so before leaving without ordering anything, still staring at me as he exited the door.

Now, she says, I tried to tell myself that all of this was just a coincidence and it probably was. But she said, I couldn't help but think about what the shaman had told me before arriving in Tuva, that this land has a special energy that affects people in powerful ways to the extremes of good, bad, and weird. And she said, I couldn't help but wonder if this was connected to the previous day. Did the shaman send the dog? Did the FSB send the man?

Or as my dad jokingly suggested over the phone, were the dog and the man the same? So she then questions, should I have paid the money to try and do my soul retrieval? Yes, yes, you should have. Great little stories like that all the way through. Really fantastic stuff. And I might mention some of the alien abduction research she did or the contactee research after the PLOS extension. So the book is Out-of-Body Experiences...

Explorations and Encounters with the Astral Plane by Samantha Lee Treasure. Available now. I'll link to it in the show notes at mysteriousuniverse.org. Really, really good. Really fun read. And like I said, I hope there's a follow-up. I want to hear about future Tokyo. This future world. And then the friend that was experiencing the same location. What happened to us in those 500 years? Well, evidently they don't know. They have no idea. Mm-hmm.

It's funny, like maybe they can trace it back to, you know, May 2025. And everything after May 2025 is kind of a blur for like 200 years. Don't you mean March 2025? Biboo. Well, we've passed that. Well, but maybe it started somewhere. I'm just going to find out in any way. What are you looking up? Did a statue. Statue, 1992, Washington. Or in 1993. 93, was it?

It wouldn't even make the news. Well, it might be in the local news. Let's have a look. Good old chat GPT. Searching the web, taking forever. Yes, in 1993, a prominent statue in Washington, D.C. was temporarily removed, but not due to an accident or protest. The Statue of Freedom...

which crowns the dome of the US Capitol, was carefully lifted off its pedestal by a helicopter on May the 9th, 1993 for restoration. Boom. That was the start. That was the event. The end of freedom. It's done. That was the event that triggered everything. That's right. So now we've got like future AI androids who can't remember if they're human or not in 2545 in this dystopian. And that's your future incarnation as a salaryman. Yeah. And that's why you're so depressed. Depressed salaryman. On the outside, you look human, but you realize you've got no soul.

All got stolen in 1993. There you go. That's a wrap for this show. Again, we'll link to the book in the show notes, mysteriousuniverse.org. Make sure you head there for our membership because there's more coming up after the break. Uh,

What have you got? Oh, I've got this incredible story of a woman who was cursed after a failed astrology party and it ended up causing ramifications for a wide range of people in her life. So we're talking about that, which follows on to the idea that this substance, this ether, could be the medium in which these curses travel within. So you just curse the ether at the party rather than an individual? No, you can't point it at an individual, but it has collateral damage attached to it.

It's an AOE attack. Pretty much, yes. That's right. So if you want to get access, head to mysteriousuniverse.org forward slash plus. Sign up today and you get these extensions we do on every single one of these shows every Friday. Huge extensions, usually an hour or more. And of course, if you sign up for plus, you get an exclusive show that comes out every Tuesday. So you're getting way more than double the content if you sign up for plus. It's all at mysteriousuniverse.org forward slash plus. Nine bucks a month. Help support your favorite show.

That's a wrap for this free edition of MU. More coming up for PLUS. If you're on PLUS, stick around for the good stuff after the break. For everyone else, we'll see you next week. Welcome back to your PLUS extension.