Shownotes Transcript
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Welcome to Mysterious Universe, Season 33, Episode 17. Coming up on the show, we've got the realm of the mutant ghosts, demonic backfires, and Magnus the Micromut and the Pharaoh's Curse. I'm your host, Benjamin Grundy. Joining me is Aaron Wright. I saw this on your computer before, and I was about to pass judgment and comment upon it, and then I realized it was written or co-authored by Philip Kinsella, and...
I really love his work, so I'm surprised that he's written Magnus the Micromut and The Pharaoh's Curse. There's many books in the Magnus the Micromut series. I think this is the third book in the series. Is there a lull in UFO activity? I'm not going to be talking about this book. I'm kind of misdirecting here. I wanted to talk about this because Philip Kinsella, as you recognized his name... He's a good researcher. We've been writing about him, or not writing about, but talking about his research for years now because he's a UFO researcher. Yeah.
And I realized he has a series of books he wrote with his twin, Ronald, about this micro-mut. The idea is it's like a robotic mutt.
sci-fi dog who's your best friend but also fights aliens. Is this early on? Because surely this wouldn't be recent. So he explains in his memoirs how this was always a dream of his and his brothers to become authors. Okay. And in the early 90s, they were living together. They came up with this idea of this robot dog.
And as I was reading through his recollections of this, it just sounded hilarious because he came up with this idea. He and his brother were convinced they were going to sell it to Disney for millions of dollars. They invested everything they owned, like all their money into this series of books about this sci-fi dog, even though they would send it out.
And just got rejection letter after rejection letter. They were just absolutely dedicated to this. It reminded me of when you get those people on like talent shows. Oh, like American Idol or similar. They can't sing and then no one tells them that they're terrible. What if they tell them that they're terrible? What are the reasons why people watch those shows? But these guys just kept on going. They never got the message. Yeah.
And it got to the point where they had released their third book. They did a signing session. There was three books. They did three books, yeah. The third book was this one, The Pharaoh's Curse. And no one showed up, quite surprisingly. Well, I feel bad for them. And I think they sold two copies and they had spent everything, like their last dime on publishing this book. They had six pounds to their name and they were driving home. This is in the UK in the late 90s. And this had been like a nine-year project.
And as they're driving home, he said his brother Ronald just started crying in the car. And then he started crying as well. And they were just distraught. They were completely crushed. It's like their dream was over. And as they got towards their home, they got to the gate and they said this strange feeling came over them, like this electrified warmth after being in the pits of utter despair. And they looked up and they said they both saw this like nine foot tall being that
In glowing white. And they said at that moment, they felt what they can only describe as a giant hand enclosing around them in a warm, loving embrace. Oh, my God. And then he said he looked up and there was like a lion's face in the sky staring down at him. Were they abducted? Well, ultimately what this leads to is a complete 180 of Ronald's, sorry, Philip's career. Oh.
Where he eventually becomes the UFO researcher that we know, and we find him going out of body and getting dragged through his kitchen wall by some hideous creature in the night. See, I was thinking that this is starting to sound a little bit Faustian, you know, like a Faustian pack. And this is what...
I was looking into for today's show. So it might dovetail really nicely, Ben, because on the last show, we were talking about the idea that when a curse is cast upon someone, people tend to think that it's a force. It's like, it's a force of bad luck. It's a changing of the fates and that, you know, bad things will befall you because of this energy, this force. It's a
coming upon you. But, you know, something we were talking about was the idea that, well, maybe it's not actually a force or an energy, but an actual individual, some type of being. And this is where the idea of like these invisible demonic beings come through. And that you pointed out quite rightly, Ben, is that when we talk about shamanism, it's like people are dealing with the shamans are dealing with low level spirits and these spirits are being harnessed and utilized. And sometimes for very much, you know, good things,
But also for some bad things as well. And you can talk about, you know, some of the curses and like people think about voodoo, that kind of stuff. Yeah, we're explaining that shamans deal exclusively with spirits. Correct. So rather than a force, when they affect something in the world, they're doing it through the use of spirits. Yes. Well, you're essentially putting a target on someone's back so that the spirit or familiar that you've taken control of is now...
following that person around and pushing them in front of cars or pushing a piece of concrete from the sky upon them, those sorts of things. There's really terrible stories you hear of people that are just cursed with such bad luck. But I wanted to dig into that a little bit deeper because I was thinking, well,
What exactly is a demon? When you think about a demon, I think for a lot of people, certainly in the West, regardless if you're being religious or not, you go to the religious connotation of it being something which is connected to good and evil, something which is connected to
to Satan. And that's kind of standard, especially with the ideas that we have, like the movie The Exorcist that came out in the 70s and The Conjuring and all these sorts of movies. It's like it's a hellish being somehow connected to the devil. But there are researchers out there, and I was quite taken actually with the work of Nathaniel Gillis, a really fascinating guy who through his own experiences, and he's approaching it still from a religious standpoint, but
But he started to realize that what people are encountering may not necessarily be demonic in the traditional sense. Demonic may be the term which is applied because it's like, well, organized religions have identified these things years ago and that's how they know how to deal with them. Sure, that's the label from that ideology. Correct. It's just these beings masquerading as
in whatever the populace will expect them to be. And so at the moment, and maybe for the past few thousand years, that's why we're like, oh, we're dealing with demons. But through his work, which I'll get into a little bit later on in the show, it becomes apparent that that's not entirely true. That's not exactly what we may be dealing with. In fact, he refers to them as the mutated ghosts.
It has a number of theories about what these things possibly could be. But before I get into that, I thought what we might do is let's go through some of the really popular cases, some of the exceptional cases that were investigated by noted demonologists like Lorraine and Ed Warren, and have a look at some of these reports. And one thing I said to you in that last show, Ben, was, well, in demonic possession, as much as people go, well, and it's funny because you go from, well, it's a religious connotation,
Today, if you were to say a demonic possession to many people in the West, they would immediately go to it's a psychological affliction. Yeah, that's true. And that there's no external entity whatsoever. But where a lot of the times that is ruled out and is pushed away, or you can kind of use it to argue, yes, psychosomatic effects are real. And people can bring about incredible symptoms in their body because of something that is occurring emotionally to them.
There's just some elements that go, there's no way that could have happened without some type of external entity. And this is things like weird writing appearing on the skin, bilocation occurring, levitations, feats of incredible strength occurring.
That's not psychological unless somehow when people are suffering from some type of psychological affliction, which is causing demonic-like possession behavior, that it activates some latent kinetic abilities, supernatural kinetic ability that we have. Well, it's clear that the Western materialist framework is really the only kind of framework
ideology in the modern world or in the world in general that doesn't accept this idea of these external spirits being able to influence humankind. It's in religion, it's in every religion, and it's in almost every culture around the world. It's in shamanism, which we just said. It's just in the materialist West, we say it's all in the mind, but it's even starting to emerge in modalities that have come out of Western thinking, like that family systems thing
That family systems therapy we spoke about recently where you're kind of dealing with the patient's inner emotions and they've found that entities appear to emerge that have their own independence. Yes. We've seen it emerge. Yeah, we've seen it emerge from multiple personality disorder where it appears that certainly it's acting as if there's multiple independent entities. The story of Billy Milligan.
That's right. There's a good example of that. And even in hypnotic states, therapists that have no interest in these kinds of ideas, they find it just spontaneously emerging with their patients where they're conversing with...
an entity that appears, by all accounts, to be separate from the patient. Yeah. And what's even more extraordinary about those sorts of cases is that the people that are having these cases, these episodes, and they do seek medical attention. And this is something which is repeated in many of these cases. So a couple of the cases we're going to be talking about today go back to the 1950s, 1949, in fact, is one of the cases we're describing. But
But as Elizabeth, not Elizabeth, Lorraine and Ed Warren have looked at, I was about to say Elizabeth Montgomery, so that's not, it's Ruth Montgomery. But with their experiences is that when they've ever gone to consult with someone who is seemingly suffering from a demonic affliction, they take them to a hospital. They get them assessed by doctors. They get them assessed by psychiatrists. And they find that there's no mental reason
or organic reason either for why they're behaving in this fashion. And then of course they start displaying, like I said, incredible strengths or feats of strength. But the other thing is for some people, they'll go and see a psychologist and a new personality will emerge, but that new personality will have attributes and qualities that the host doesn't
has no access to. So they might speak Latin, for example, and yet the person who is seeking the psychological help has no understanding whatsoever of Latin. Or a dead version of, I think, I mean, Latin is dead, but like a different dialect of Latin, which hasn't been spoken in the last 800 years or something. Or the multiple personality cases where one of the personalities is a diabetic. Correct. And the main personality isn't, or one's got a
an affliction to dairy. Yeah. So those particular cases, people have just stated that this is a psychosomatic effect. But I'm like, that's pretty extraordinary anyway for your body to suddenly change its blood chemistry to display that you have diabetes in a very short period of time and then return to complete normalcy. That's
That's pretty extraordinary. I mean, yes, it just demonstrates something which is some of the capabilities of the human body, but there's just too many of these cases all throughout history where you can go,
you know, it's not that it's just someone suffering from a psychotic episode. Like there's something else going on here. They're being afflicted by one of these mutant ghosts, which, you know, Nathaniel gets into. But before we do that, let's play a couple of these videos I want to get into. And as I pointed out before, the Exorcist, of course, is, you know, one of the places where people go when you think of a demonic, you know, attachment. But the story of the Exorcist is actually based on a diary that
which was kept by a priest who was monitoring this possession of this young boy. Now, this young boy is assigned this pseudonym of the name Ronnie. I think it was like Ronald Doe, ultimately, we find out. And of course, I'll link to the full story of what happened to him, but I just want to go over just a little bit of what happened to him here. But here you've got some research.
This is a researcher who's describing what this boy said he was encountering. It's only brief. Let's take a look. So this was recorded in the diary of this priest. And it's interesting because this particular diary apparently had been suppressed by the Catholic Church.
Because there hadn't been an exorcism, like a proper sanctioned exorcism, for I think a number of 100 or so or maybe 200 years. It was quite a long period of time. But the Catholic Church in this particular case apparently became aware of this case of this boy that he clearly was being afflicted by something. And so the priests were told to keep this diary to record every single thing that happened so they could monitor it and so they could utilize it. And once it appeared that they completed what they needed to complete...
The diary was hidden away. Now, over the years, this diary has gotten out, and this is where we've gotten this story. And like The Exorcist, it follows this terrible trend of this being an external affliction and entity coming in. In the movie, it's obviously a female character, but in this particular case, it's Robbie. But like many of these stories of demonic possession, you have to question, well, how did this start? How does a 13-year-old boy suddenly start encountering what he's describing as a slippery,
red-skinned, devil-like creature. How did he get to this? Well, it didn't start with him seeing this entity. It started with scratching in his walls. Until that January 1949, Robbie had lived the normal life of a 13-year-old schoolboy. It was then he started to report strange events in the house. What is that noise? I don't have a clue. Sounds like a camera or something.
Scratching noises behind the walls. First light like mice, then louder like rats. Robbie's mother noticed that the noises followed her son from room to room.
That's creepy. Yeah, how distressing would that be? So this is 1949 that this is taking place. And the world has already just gone through some incredible things. Like, you know, in the previous, around the time that he would have been born, we would have just been coming out of the depression, the global depression. So that in itself would have affected the psyche of the world. Then, of course, we had the Second World War that had been another incredible threat to everyone's psyche. So there's some suspicion here that...
because of the world events that were taking place, people everywhere were slightly more vulnerable to these afflictions, to these entities. However, why this boy? As I was asking earlier, why this particular boy? Well, it comes out when the priests get involved eventually as to what he'd been doing, and it just so happens that his aunt had passed away. So this trauma, this psychological trauma. But before she had passed away, she had taught him how to use an Ouija board.
Oh, there you go. I was wondering if that would appear in the recreation, like in the narrator saying, he just sat down like a normal boy and he's got the spirit board out. It does. Yeah, I didn't include it in these videos because it's basically just what I described. But yeah, I mean, it started that before his aunt died, she taught him how to use an Ouija board. Now,
Now, is that just too cliche? Did he not use it correctly and it granted these entities access to him? We're not really sure how this occurred, but for whatever reason, he left himself vulnerable to these entities. And when we get into what Nathaniel is describing later on, it's quite clear that this is what happens so frequently with people that are suffering from these afflictions.
They are somehow left psychically vulnerable. And Susan Martinez describes something like this as well. Now, she's got a couple of books that she's published, numerous books, in fact, that she's published on the spirit world. In fact, she's published The Field Guide to the Spirit World, The Science of Angel Power, Diskinate Entities, and Demonic Perspectives.
possession. I'll link to that in the show notes so you can check it out. But I was looking at some of her work and one thing she highlights with these demonic possessions, these apparent demonic possessions, these people being afflicted by these things, is she highlights that there's two main factors. One, of course, is some type of trauma, whether it's drug use or alcoholism, but the other one is head injuries. She's like, if someone has suffered from a head injury,
It seems like there's a high instance of them being afflicted by some sort of demonic or spiritual possession. And of course, people from a more modern standpoint will say, well, that's obvious. It's like they've suffered a head injury. Their neurology is messed up. It would make sense that they would have these sorts of afflictions. It's all got to do with the brain. Right, exactly. But then, of course, perhaps someone who was more into the occult would say,
Well, what's occurred is that that brain structure has been altered. And if you think of it being consciousness being non-local, then the receiver, the channel has changed. Yeah, the equipment that receives the signal has been damaged. Exactly. The radio has been damaged. So can other things that are hovering around come in? And this is something that Nathaniel Gillis kind of touched on. He's like, well...
And he's referred to them as mutated ghosts because he's like, these beings that attack people for whatever reason, and this is something you and I have touched on, Ben, they're interested in utilizing humanity. Like they are jealous, they are angry. And where do we hear this? We hear this with ETs, right? So what they do is they look for vulnerable humans and they attach to them.
And they come through them because that's the only way that they can manifest on this plane. And they feed upon us. They feed upon our fear. They feed upon our misery. And they generate chaos so that it generates more fear and more misery and causes people to go into a state where they're more vulnerable. And what happens? It's an invading force. Why doesn't he just call them demons? Because he said that, and a lot of his works, one of his books- Because everything you just described is identical. Correct.
Correct. The description of demons. So his book, A Moment Called Man, is one of the ones that he's published. And it's very religious. Like it does go down this religious path. But I was looking into some of his writings and he points out that even if you come at this from a religious perspective, he's like, even when it comes down to an exorcism, right, they have very strict rules about what is deemed to be a demonic possession. Okay. And so you will have cases that are outliers.
Where it's like they're behaving and it's like ticking all the boxes for what appears to be, from an outsider's perspective, a demonic possession. But the church will go, no, no, no, that doesn't fit with our criteria.
And then it's just ignored? Yeah. Then you don't get an exorcism. Correct. And that person is left adrift with this horrible event that's taking place. Now, of course, you could go back to, well, it must be some type of psychological affliction. And then perhaps, you know, you can utilize certain medications. But there are many cases where people might display, you know, like a psychiatric or a schizophrenic type of
type of illness and they take the medication and it may subdue or stop whatever's going on. But the moment they come off that medication, the voices come back. And there was one case that was highlighted by Brent Rains, where I remember he was describing, if I recall correctly, that there was a woman who had contacted him who
Sadly, her son had committed suicide, like really, really dreadful. And that's what these beings for whatever reason seem to want to do a lot as well. They encourage people to commit suicide. But this poor woman was reaching out because she said that her son had been afflicted just suddenly.
by a schizophrenic type illness. Now, schizophrenia does tend to come on. Well, it does come on in teenage years for some people. Obviously, it's not very common, but for some people, it's like teenage years that it kind of kicks in. But sadly, he had gone on some type of, you know, cytopic medication and the entity when he came off it was really pissed at him. Like was really angry at him for the fact that he had started using this substance to prevent it from getting through.
So it's like, is that the mind creating that? And the question that was asked was like, well, why is it though, when people suffer these afflictions, that it's always negative? It's like, they're not talking with beings that are like, I know you could do it. Let's go get this new degree. Let's go work hard. You know what I mean? It's always like, you've got to kill yourself. It's always this negative. Like it's rare that you hear this positive side of it. It's almost like it's demonic. Correct. And if you look at it from this outside of kind of perspective, but see what...
What Nathaniel Gillis highlights is like they are masquerading. These beings, these entities, they are masquerading. And in our current context, it's like we see them and maybe the last few hundred years, if not longer, this is the context that we see them in, in a religious context. They're demons. Like it's some type of... But no, they've always been around, but they're just...
identified differently by different groups and different understandings. And you can see that it's like Islam has the jinn and they refer something to very similar. You know, Christianity has demons. But then of course you talk about some shamanistic cultures, like they identify them as being negative entities. Well, that's why you just got to look at their nature and what they do. Yeah.
That really is how you judge something is by its nature. Correct. Whether it's a label demons and it comes from Christian ideology or it's the jinn or some other name or what's he calling it? Mutated ghosts. It doesn't really matter. What matters is what they do and how they behave. And that's why I've always argued that when some people say that, well, aliens are demons, I don't necessarily say, well, you're wrong to say that. I don't agree with it technically, but...
But I don't think it's entirely wrong either, because if you look at the alien phenomenon as reported by abductees, what they do in many respects is identical to what you would say demons would do. They corrupt the individual. They operate with deception. They operate under the cover of stealth and darkness.
They are evil. They have evil intentions. They absolutely have. They have the worst of intentions for humanity. And what that means is something that, you know, we need to actually be aware of it. Like this whole shunning and ridiculing people for saying, well, like there's these negative entities around. Like it still happens today. It's like it's either it's religious batshittery or it's psychological problems.
It's like there's no middle ground for like, no, hang on a second. We live in a world that we can't see so many different things. We have no understanding of these things. But there is this danger of these entities hanging around which have been named in different forms over many millennia. And it's like, oh, no, they don't exist.
Like, let's just shut ourselves off from them or just ignore them. And that can't happen to me. And of course it happens to people. And so, so many modern researchers, like I was referring to Ruth Montgomery before, and there's multitudes of other, you know, parapsych, and they weren't even parapsychological researchers. They were just psychologists that were dealing with patients that seemingly had an emotional affliction, but then very rapidly realized they were talking to some discarnate entity through this person. And yet even today, we still shun this.
But let's go back to some of these videos and I'll go back to Nathaniel's stuff. So after the scratching started with Robbie and following him through the house, you could go, well, look, maybe it is that there's rats or mice in the walls. I mean, that's all possible. It wasn't until something very visual happened that his mother looked into his bedroom one evening and saw something. Robbie's mother saw sheets stand stiffly on end. She saw blankets tear from his mattresses.
And these things that she saw brought her terror. She was too frightened to tell neighbors, even her Lutheran minister.
So how would you feel in that situation? She's so frightened by what's going on. She can't even tell close confidants. She can't tell her neighbors, but she can't tell her priest or her minister. You need to call them mutated ghosts removalists. This is the thing, right? Funnily enough, it turns out that it's a group of Jesuit priests who the ones that she ended up calling because she did eventually tell her because it basically escalates. It escalates so much that she tells a priest. A priest is like,
I don't know how to deal with this. I don't know what to do. So he gets in contact with a group of priests, and this is where these three priests get involved in it, of course. And that's where the diary was recorded of what happened to him. But there's an author by the name of Thomas Allen, and he has gone through this diary in depth. And he noticed a few things. And one of the biggest things about this, and this seems to be a recurring theme, in the next case I'll highlight as well, is that he was a relatively normal kid during the day. But when darkness fell...
There was an absolute change. Just play the next one for me. Objects flying, beds shaking, chairs going over, bureaus moving from one side of the bedroom to the other. Multiple personalities surfaced. His face contorted. His voice became deeper and more gravelly. And he spoke in vulgarity. His eyes are closed and he spits with unerring accuracy into the faces of anyone who's near him.
He curses his mother and father. He's completely 180 degrees from what he is during the day. So this is not a psychological condition. It's surely not. How is it that you're normal during the day, but then night falls and you've got pinpoint accuracy for spitting in people's faces? Well, it is a psychological condition, but...
Where you would differ from the conventional understanding is the cause of it is not a chemical misbalance or a hormone problem. The cause of it is an entity. Yes. Yeah. That's where I'm getting with these stories is that ultimately it's an entity. What that entity is, well, people are ready to debate about that. But what we need to recognize is that at a
appears that there are discarnate entities that are messing with human beings, causing these terrible things, but also granting this kid these extraordinary abilities. And this is what we were talking about before with people that dabble in this kind of stuff. And they think that they want to obtain some type of superhuman ability. So they make deals. And that's why when you're talking about Kinsella, and I'm sure we'll get into it later, but I was like,
Like, yeah, there's these big, really positive, but he turned around a failing career after coming in contact with some being.
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What if there's a new Pixar film coming out about Magnus the Micromut? Yeah, but what if, like, I'm not saying he has, but from what you're describing so far, there are many cases of people that encounter these beings and they make a deal with them. But then it goes even further because this comes back to the psychosomatic stuff. Where it really escalated and they realized that they needed to bring these priests in, they needed to perform an exorcism, was because what was happening to his skin.
According to the diary, red welts emerged on the boy's body. Images of the devil and words like hell and spite appeared in blood-red symbols.
So you can see why people do go to a religious connotation for this, because images of the devil or symbols of the devil, hell written on him. But if you go to what Nathaniel is describing, is that these beings are simply masquerading as that, because as human beings, our current paradigm is that all these demon things are what we understand them to be.
But it's like, it may not be that. They've got this intention of gaining control. And also in the previous video, there was something that may have kind of been missed there, but multiple personalities started coming through this kid. It wasn't just the one. There were multiple personalities. So you've got John Walsh. Now, John Walsh was a confidant of William Bowdoin. So William Bowdoin, father William Bowdoin, was the one, the main person who performed the exorcism on
And they took Robbie to this hospital somewhere in St. Louis, I understand. And for days and nights, like it was like 10 days that they performed this exorcism. And they went through the most grueling and tedious of processes to get this done. But this is John describing how his friend and colleague would be after each night doing these things. He never remembered anything the next day. Could never recall. It was like nothing happened.
But during the course of the evening, an awful lot would happen. There was frequently automatic writing, you know, like somebody took a hot iron and wrote words on his chest, on his flesh, and usually they were obscenities. It was a very, very difficult experience.
Makes sense that he wouldn't remember it. I mean, even if you go back to the Billy Milligan story, he would describe this idea of a spotlight in his mind. That's correct. Whoever stood in the spotlight, whichever personality was in the spotlight would have conscious control and conscious recall. If you were out of the spotlight, you wouldn't know what was going on. It's like you were in a dormant state. Correct. Yeah. Whoever was in the spotlight was essentially in the driver's seat.
and was taking everything in while everyone else was kind of relegated to the background. The only difference with the Billy Milligan story from what I recall is that it didn't seem to have the same feel of this evil and negativity. And I think there was an element of it, but it was obviously disruption. Some of the personalities were very evil.
It just wasn't all of them. Correct. Yeah. So it wasn't, but this kind of stuff, like this is chamber of horror stuff. And in fact, that's what they called the room where they were performing this exorcism. Just play some of the next one for me, Ben. As the violence grew, security was tightened around the private room on the fifth floor of the hospital. The room was about to live up to its name, Chamber of Horrors.
I command you, whoever you are. Night after night until four o'clock in the morning, Father Boudin stood rigid in prayer while family members and his assistants fought to restrain the boy. Robbie uttered curses, kicked and punched, spoke in Latin. He reacted violently when the priest poured flasks of holy water on him. A 13-year-old boy, you know, is not going to go out there to learn Latin to troll a couple of priests.
But the fact that this kid was speaking, this suggests to me that there is absolutely something which is beyond just a simple psychological condition. This is that there does appear to be a discarnate entity connected to this thing. But what you're arguing and what this gentleman is arguing is that this entity would go to the lengths of learning Latin to trick the priests. Correct. Because his argument is that they're not necessarily demonic as per the church's descriptions, although those descriptions are apt. Yep.
It's just using that archetype to do what it wants to do. Correct. And in fact, something that Nathaniel said was that he looked into the idea of like, well, these beings, like what are they going to be? And I think, I can't recall if he was talking to a medium or someone who had, I can't recall the exact details, but someone who had, no, I'm sorry. I know where it comes from. It comes from an alleged report of the Collins elite.
You have to recall the Collins elite, which is something that Nick Redfern published a book on, looked into in a great deal of detail. The secret group amongst governments and powerful individuals. Secret group of scientists that had made contact with what they believed to be ETs and a group of religious scientists or physicists or something that were connected to this program very rapidly realized that they weren't ETs. They were demons. They were demons. They were demonic entities masquerading as ETs.
trying to make their way into humanity well one of the things that came from nathaniel uh and through this collins elite was that the collins elite asked these beings like these ets not these ets sorry these demons right like what are you like are you demons and they kind of scoffed like these things scoffed and they said that's what you think we are uh and then apparently it's like well you know what will happen in the future and it was like we will just adapt we
we will just be whatever the society wants us to be or thinks of us at that time. So this is where this idea, I'm sure, for Nathaniel came through, and I think it's quite insightful. And some people in the paranormal field have looked into this as well, is that these are non-human entities.
that for whatever reason have a very vested interest in us, but at the same time, they just mold and adapt and shapeshift into whatever the current idea of us or whatever them is. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense because obviously these entities would be around longer than the religion of Christianity. Correct. Yeah. As long as humanity has been with us, they've always been with us.
And that's why it was like, well, there's this outstanding point of where it's like, there are plenty of cases where the church will intervene and perform these rituals and they work, but it's a very rigid kind of way that you have to follow it. Whereas it's like, oh no, that doesn't tick that box. So that's a little bit outside of the data. So we can't treat it. But then this poor person is left afflicted by this and modern medicine can't help. So...
what do they do? And it seems like these things are just hell-bent on creating really, really dreadful outcomes for humanity. I still think you have to give the church credit because they have created a system that identifies to some degree these entities and they do have a system in place to combat it. Correct. That can't be said for the secular society.
because they don't even see that as a real problem. They don't even see it as a valid thing. That's what I like about Nathaniel's stuff is that he is approaching it from a more secular point of view. As much as he includes the religious stuff, it's very important. He's also like, no, no, no, there's a secular approach that we have to have with this. And that's something I totally agree with him because it's like,
you don't necessarily have to believe in these things, right? They still exist. Just because you don't believe in them, it doesn't mean that they don't exist. And because we have followed the religion of science as well, it's like, well, that possibly can't exist. But that leaves us in a very difficult position because it means that these things can go about doing whatever they want to do, essentially,
without any of us, without, without us having any defenses against them because it's like, Oh no, you're just simply crazy. Now the story about Robbie though, the story about Robbie does have this very religious, uh, kind of, uh, ending because there's this incredible sound, right? So one morning after this exorcism has been performed, this is, there's this incredible sound which resonates through the entirety of the hospital, a sound that surely couldn't have been created by one boy. Um,
But he snaps out of it. When he snaps out of it, a very religious form had come to assist him. Robbie was still sleeping on the morning of the 19th Easter Tuesday. About 11 o'clock, the Alexian Hospital echoed with a thunderous noise, like a gunshot. What happened? When a priest entered, the boy was sitting peacefully on his bed, rubbing his eyes. He had no memory of the previous 10 weeks. He would tell Father Boudin that he had a dream.
Ten?
See, here you are in one breath saying you need some kind of secular solution to these mutated ghosts coming and possessing people. And on the other hand, we have Mick. Good old Archangel Mick. Archangel Mick coming and literally chopping the heads off ten demons. Ha ha ha.
Why do you need some secular solution when the Catholic Church has it all laid out for you with their own demon destroyers ready to go? Because as I'll reiterate, as Nathaniel points out, there's cases that fall outside of their understanding and outside of their rituals and their processes. But that's like the 0.01%.
Well, but every life is important, Ben. That's like people that get Clives from too much pornography and they deserve everything they get. I think it's more than that. And that's why people, I think there's this fusion as well of where people that have a very religious approach to this can also appreciate that it's not necessarily, like you're not necessarily fighting a demon. Like that's your constraint. That's your understanding. That's your worldview. But it's like, just because it's working doesn't
That doesn't mean that that is exactly what these things are. Like, oh, it's a demon. It's like one of Satan's spawn. That's what this thing is. It's like, well, no. Yeah, it might be working at the moment. But it's like, it's funny. It's got this same kind of appeal in the sense of it's like immunology. It's like your immune system is kind of adapting to new threats. It doesn't care exactly what it is. I mean, it can't be very specific. But my point is that you adapt to it. It's like if you're stuck in this religious process
perspective of, oh, it's all demons, all the spawn of Satan, then what will happen is these things will...
And they will fall outside of, if we get more and more people coming and trying to do exorcisms, those exorcisms may start failing because it's like they've moved. They've modulated themselves. Well, from my understanding of the successful exorcisms, and we've covered a lot on this show, they are successful because the person that is under persecution from entities, they give themselves to Jesus or to God? A higher power. No.
No, specifically Jesus or God. That is what is laid out by the exorcist. It's not a higher power. It's very explicit. It has to be Jesus or God. And that's what they give themselves over to, which resolves the situation. So it's actually, it's the power of Jesus or God that is doing anything in this scenario. And the exorcists themselves will tell you that, you know, it's not me. I don't have any power. I'm just kind of,
allowing Archangel Michael or Jesus or God to come through and do what's necessary. And so...
Yeah, I get what you're saying. Like, there needs to be some kind of secular option, you could argue. A recognition. But what I'm saying is that there's already a system that works, that is effective. But why are you saying that it doesn't? So what I'm saying is there are people that have approached... Well, this was the case that you're displaying. Oh, that case worked. It was resolved by Jesus and God. Correct, right? But if these... To your point, right, you actually... I'm really pleased that you said that because you're right. It's like, oh...
I know it. If I give myself over to Jesus or God, guess what? Guess what though? This is where you get the demonic backfire. This is where someone is in an exorcism. They've made some pact with the devil or this demonic being and they're getting taken over. And so what do they have to do? They have to give up their free will. They have to give up themselves and their life and everything to this entity, right?
How do you know it's Jesus? How do you know it's God? How do you know it's this higher power? So what do you do? You give yourself up to it. It's one of the other beings that's waiting to get hold of you. And because they adapt and modulate themselves, people are going through exorcisms. They're being cured or exercised. And then 10 years later, bam, terrible events take place because the demon actually hasn't left. The entity, the mutated ghost has not left. It's fooled you.
What's the gentleman's name again? This is not what Nathaniel is describing. So where are you getting this from? Do you have an example? I absolutely do have an example for you. Something that was looked into by the brilliant Ed and Lorraine Warren, of course, the demonologist. And they published a book which was called, let me hear, Satan's Harvest. This was actually co-authored with
with a man who was demonically possessed. This is Maurice Theriot. Now let's describe about what happens to him. So this is how, in this video, this is Lorraine Warren talking about how she ended up meeting up with Maurice. We were contacted by a priest by the name of Father Homer Boyer
in Warren, Massachusetts. He told us about this French Canadian farmer and he told us that the only way he really knew the family, although they were parishioners, but he said they were very private people. And he says, "But some very strange things are happening." He said, "I go there from time to time. I pray with the family, but it seems to antagonize what is there. It really isn't helping." He said, "So I know I need your help."
So you've got a priest who has this guidebook and this structure and these traditional methods of dealing with it. And he's like, I know what to do. I'm going to contact a secular demonologist to come in and deal with this.
This is where Ed and Lorraine Warren, even though they did use, you know, religion, but it wasn't just that. So I'm not bashing religion. Like, I think you think that I'm kind of going in this path of doing that. I'm not saying that. All I'm saying is that different people have different approaches to these things. But what overall we need to recognize is that because we don't know exactly what these things are, we need to have this very fluid approach in the fact that we have to recognize that these things do exist.
There are discarnate entities that have a hatred of humanity that are doing terrible things to people. And of course, there are plenty of psychological conditions that can mimic this kind of stuff, and I'm not ruling out that either. It's like there's a whole group of people that do suffer from psychological conditions that can be treated with conventional medication, which seem to solve that issue. But
in the gray, in the gray zone of all this, whether it's science or religion or anything else, there are these entities clearly from these stories, from so many of these reports that have a hatred
And what they're doing is they're tapping into this strict belief that we have, whether what either side you're on, and no matter where you sit on the spectrum, that are exploiting that so that they can go about like a virus invading. And this is what, you know, has been described by...
Nathaniel, is that it's like they're invading the human body. Not in the human body individually, but as in humanity. Let me give you some examples. When I was going through some of his works, he was saying, look, there's these crazy tales. If you look into the books of Eros and Evil, which was published by Robert E. L. Masters, you've got something that was described by
let me just see if I can pull it up here. Yes, it's actually Ed Simon talking about the history of demonology in the world. But if you go back to Eros and Evil, you've got this idea of the impregnation by the dead of the bodies of the living, right? And so there's been these practices over the years, for example, of where
There's a 17th century report of where a man says that he was picking apples in an orchard. And as he was picking apples in this orchard, some being, some spirit manifests before him and kind of takes over this guy. And as this man is going through the typical kind of what appears to be a demonic possession, and they're trying to, the exorcist is trying to get this thing out. The exorcist very readily realizes he's like, this isn't a demon. This is like a, a
a discarnate spirit of a living person. Like it's a living person who's been left to wander, but it just so happens, right? Like many people that commit crimes, they return to the scene of their crime. And it just so happens that where this guy had been picking apples in this orchard, well, it was that a murderer had killed someone at that spot, at that very tree where the orchard was like years later. And the spirit was hanging around that spot
revisiting the scene of the crime. Weird. And it possessed him while he was there. There was another story of where apparently like when you pass on, you take your intentions with you, right? So if your intentions are that you're a, you know,
a bad person with bad ideas. It's like people- Yeah, you don't magically change just because you die. Yeah, it just hangs around. It's still you. And then once you attach onto someone, it's like what Ruth Montgomery would describe as a walk-in. But it's a negative one. It comes and it takes control. And it's not necessarily a demon, right? Because a demon as well usually tends to be an entity which has never been human in the first place. Whereas these are entities that were human, but they're just bad people. Yeah, that's a really good point. I like
that you made the distinction because, you know, people like William Baldwin, for example, who treats these entity attachments differently
He makes a lot of clear distinctions between what he's dealing with. And he says, yeah, there's what you would call demonic entities. They're pure evil. But he also talks about discarnate humans like you're describing. He talks about aliens as well as one possibility. And so, yeah, I get what you're saying. The reason I brought up reiterating that when the Catholic exorcist is successful and it's because the person is giving themselves over to God or Jesus is
I was trying to make the point that it's always a higher power. It is always something. Yeah, that's what I said, a higher power. Yeah, divine or holy that is providing the efficacy. And so the question I have is when someone is arguing that we need a secular system
way to deal with these issues, I'm just skeptical about it being effective because in all the cases, whether it's someone that is doing some kind of hypnotic therapy, even in those scenarios, they're still bringing in some kind of higher power. They're still discussing like, my guardians came in or I called in the light. It's always something heavenly as opposed to demonic. You can't escape that dichotomy.
You're always tapping into something higher. So that's what I was trying to say. I'm just like, I'm a little bit skeptical when people say, oh, you know, we can remove the church from it. In essence, the church is about God and higher powers. And I don't think you can remove that from these scenarios. But let me reiterate, Nathaniel's not saying that. He still is coming at this from a religious perspective. But what I'm saying and what I'm basically saying
you're reading into what he's describing is that there are cases that fall outside of that framework. And so what we have to do, there are people that are afflicted by it. We have to help them. We can't just go along and go, oh, well, you know, we can't like science isn't helping and all the church, traditional church isn't helping. What do we do? Oh, well, we'll just let them deal with it. It's like, no, we have to have this approach. And the problem is those people that are afflicted by it, like this poor mother whose son has been afflicted by this thing. Fortunately, she was able to find help from the church. But what do people do
When it's like, well, church says no, science says no, they're left, they're left. And so it comes back to this idea of these entities. And it's like, it's like a entity that wants to wear its victim like a biological costume is something that I wrote here in my notes. And funnily enough, like in Roman times, they would make criminals wear the bodies of their victims. It's like, there's this kind of tradition connected to this kind of stuff. But then,
Nathaniel goes into something that's really fascinating that crosses into the realm of ETs. And because, of course, this comes up with the Collins elite where they were describing these things that
It's like, well, are they actually ETs or are they these entities masquerading as something? And see, we're talking about mutant ghosts, but everything I'm describing on today's show as well, don't get caught up in, well, this is the universal, you know, ultimate answer for every single case, because that's not the case at all. It's like, there's a whole range of different things going on. I'm merely just trying to put forward that we should have
approach this from as many angles as we can. The system that I'm thinking of, which I think has actually achieved what you're describing is this... Oh, yes, the integrated family stuff. Yeah, internal family system. So this is the book by Robert Falconer called The Others Within Us, which I covered back in April last year. Mm-hmm.
And he was practicing this internal family systems therapy. And it's one of these examples that I mentioned where these entities just started to come through. Yeah. Time and time again. And it's really interesting because he's like, even the founder of that practice, the guy, the psychologist that invented it was like,
I don't know if you should write this book. Like, I don't know if we really want to bring this out there, but it was just undeniable. It kept on coming up so frequently of in the end, he was like begrudgingly like, yeah, okay, we have, we've got to address this. I think that system was pretty close to it.
as well, at the best that we can understand. But what will happen is, whether it's religious or this kind of stuff or even science, because it is this fluid kind of back and forth, it really is this war between good and evil. I'm not even talking in a religious sense. It's just like these things, these entities, they don't like us. I don't know why. We don't know why. Researchers don't know why. They don't like us. They've got very ill intentions for humanity. But if we don't recognize them, even the possibility that these things could exist, it's like,
We're always on the back foot. We're never on the offensive. We're always in the defensive because we're not even recognizing that that danger is present. But again, this is like you bring up a good point. We don't know why they do it, but we do know that they always try and lead the individual to destruction. Yes. And it's self-destruction. And it's just interesting that what they lead the individual to do is exactly what an institution like the church would say don't do. Correct. That's a good point. Yeah.
So it seems, again, I don't want to keep harping on this, but it seems as though the orthodox views were correct about these beings because these beings ultimately try and destroy the human soul. Yeah, because, yeah, well, you're right. They're trying to destroy the human soul. You're absolutely right. And they are, but they still go, oh, it's demons, right? But as, you know, and we're pointing out from the Collins elite there, from dealing with these things, that's just what we're presenting ourselves to you as.
Like, that's what you think we are. That's what we're going with now. But they keep on changing. And so what's going to happen eventually is that if we don't recognize this, and even now, it's like, from what I understand, exorcisms are still a big no-no. Like, there's still a big, like, let's keep it quiet. Let's not talk about it a lot. Like, even in the church, it's like, let's not approach it. It's like, because that is even kind of all failing to the, falling to the wayside, it means that we're even more vulnerable. Yeah, you're totally right. Because if you don't have a framework that even acknowledges that those exorcisms
behaviors are detrimental to the soul. If you don't even acknowledge there is a soul, how can you ever hope to combat it? Let's dose people up with a bunch of risperidone or something like that and the problem will go away. And it doesn't.
it doesn't go away. The question is, where do we even begin? This is why you've got demonologists and people looking in this field. It's like, yeah, they're trying to approach it from these frameworks because that's the best that we have, but we can make it better. We can build on it, right? Because otherwise it does end up in these terrible locations like the story of, pardon me, Maurice. So let's play some of the details about Maurice. So Maurice, I have to highlight. So
this priest got in contact with the Warrens and said, I've come across this case of this man, Maurice, this French Canadian guy. There's something really bad going on with him. But this is much later in his life. It actually goes, I believe it was two marriages or so. It was like, the first thing that happened in his marriage actually was this. Just play number 10 for me, please, Ben. Sometimes Maurice would go into a trance. He seemed to turn into another person. Yes, he did.
And on at least two occasions, unexplainable supernatural events accompanied his attacks. One time the crucifix above his head appeared to bleed.
So that obviously has a religious connotation. Like a crucifix. All your examples are just pure demonic archetypes. Well, they do. They do follow, particularly with his stuff, right? I mean, it's not like there's blood coming out of his Xbox controller or anything. Well, no, but there's blood coming out of his eyes from unknown locations. Right. But again, it's like these beings can manifest as anything. So what does it know? Like they know what creates the fear. This is what the fear is. Yeah.
You've got a bleeding crucifix because of the influence that religion still does have upon us, right? It's part of our Western civilization. It's what has allowed us to flourish and grow because we've had these concepts and ideas and values. It's like it's still embedded deeply into us, and these beings know that. So, oh, you had a crucifix. We'll make it bleed. Yeah. Well, you've got to question if he was an atheist. Yeah.
Would he still- Would that work? Yeah. Would he still be capable of being, would he still be susceptible to demonic attacks? Yeah. And I think the answer would be absolutely yes. So in that case, what form would it take? Well, I think for a lot of people, I think still like the archetype of a bleeding religious-
would do it for most people, even if they were atheists. I think it's because it's so ingrained in us, like through popular culture as well and movies and that kind of stuff, that like a bleeding statue, but the thing is, if you're an atheist, you're not going to have crucifix or a Virgin Mary in your house. Actually, that's a good point. Yeah, what would set it off? That's what I'm saying. Like his Xbox controller started, all this blood started to come out of it. Or a pride flag burning or something. I don't know, something like that. Ha ha ha!
His pride plant just goes back. I'm joking.
I'm sorry. That's all I could come up with. His kefir just went. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, exactly. No, but see with this, with these experiences, it wasn't just that it was like that in itself is obviously terrifying for that wife. But I think there was another wife that he had where she had said that they'd gone for a drive one afternoon. And when they'd gone for a drive, he kind of just like turns and looks at her and something else comes through.
And it was like some deep, horrible voice. And he's like, I'm going to kill us. And apparently he takes his hands off the wheel and the wheel itself is starting to be controlled by invisible hands. I like that. Call the bluff of the demon. Yeah. Like always take your hands off the wheel. Well, he pulled his hand, but it was like the demon had controlled him and pulled his hands off the wheel. Ugh.
And he was just like, oh, and the car's driving. And she's like, something was driving the car that wasn't him. So this goes beyond, well beyond it being just like a psychological thing that's contained within the person suffering from schizophrenia, for example. A schizophrenic doesn't have invisible hands driving their car for them. There's something else occurring here. So that was one of the events that really kind of took off. So you've got
other elements as well. Like play number 12 for me, Ben. This is where apparently he was bilocating. He began to have strange things happen. He could bilocate, which means that he could be in two places at one time. We know that through bilocation, it can come about from the divine, as in the case of men like Padre Pio, a man who lived during our lifetime, or it could come about through the demonic.
In Maurice's case, it did. That's a really good point because that's like, yeah, Padre Pio was a great example of that. That guy was well known for biolocation, but that was like a positive thing.
He did it for positive things. Hundreds of years ago, it was very risky to be public with any kind of supernormal ability because your enemies would easily be able to say you're under demonic control. That's right. Now, this Maurice was displaying other effects as well. Apparently, much like the story of the child before, Robbie, he was speaking in Latin. Now, he was only educated to the third grade.
Like he was only in the third, so he was practically illiterate and somehow he was speaking Latin, but not just Latin. He also had religious terms that he had no knowledge of. And yet he was able to say them. This is something that was picked up by, by Ed Warren. Um, but something that coincides with the case of Robbie, if you play number 14, Ben, there was something very similar occurring. At that first meeting, they talked about the levitation of things. They talked about the writing on Maurice's back messages about,
What? That's so strange.
So the message would just disappear. It's like supernatural abilities. And it wasn't just that. You've also got Roger Coyle here, who was a police officer. And so the case with Robbie, something I didn't highlight, is where it really started taking off. After you'd heard the scratching in the wall, one morning he was sitting down having breakfast and the fruit bowl just started levitating in front of him. And the fruit just started kind of like being juggled in the air by invisible hands. Convenient. But with Maurice. So Maurice...
was displaying incredible feats of strength. He had a statue that he said he got from a cemetery, and that's what it looked like. It was maybe five, five and a half feet tall, concrete. I think it was a statue of St. Teresa, because it looked like it had roses in its hand, but the roses were broken, and that's why the statue was tossed out. So he had it, and it was solid concrete, and after calling on this priest,
entity or demon or whatever he allegedly had, he was able to pick this statue up with his fingertips. What? Yeah. A heavy concrete statue from a cemetery. He could pick it up with his fingertips.
Like it was made of tinfoil or something. But this is these incredible feats. Also, you know, you have to question, okay, where did this begin? Like, where did this happen? And there was no him playing with an Ouija board or anything like that. It goes back to what Susan Martinez is talking about, is that one is head trauma or the other one is traumatic.
traumatic abuse, a traumatic event. If you play number 17, please, Ben. This is Elizabeth, sorry, Elizabeth Warren. Why do I keep on saying that? Lorraine Warren describing the origins of Paul Maurice and what happened to him. Maurice was a normal kid to a certain extent until, let's figure it, he was in third grade. So I would say that would probably have been about eight or nine years of age.
and he witnessed something in the barn. The father was involved in a case of bestiality. - Huh? - He was, his father hated him for the fact that he actually got to see that. - It was no secret in Fort Kent that Maxime Thériault was abusive, especially towards his young son Maurice.
But as often happens in such cases, the community preferred to look the other way. With no help, left to his own devices, the boy could only dream of the day when he could escape the clutches of his cruel father. One afternoon, coming back from the fields, where like countless times before he had again been beaten by his father, young Maurice shouted, "I'd rather work for the devil than keep on working for you." And for the devil he will work.
What a truly awful thing to happen to that child. And there's other things I didn't include because I'm not concerned about the podcast, but I don't know about the YouTube algorithm that I can't say certain things. Let me just say the abuse is worse. Significantly, traumatically, and horribly just wrong, wrong things that happened to him. So it's easy when you find out the story of Maurice and what happened, which we'll go into, because he himself ends up being quite a bad man. But his origins as an innocent child
is what caused this. And there's some sayings that apparently these forces, they want to get into the purest souls and then they want to corrupt them. And it's like, well, this is what happened. This poor kid, like as a young kid experiencing this kind of trauma, it set him up. Well, it goes back to the descriptions from people who claim to be able to perceive these things that
trauma creates a kind of opening, you know, to get into the technical aspects of it. Yep. Trauma is, it creates a doorway. Correct. To these entities. Yep. And allows these things through. And so the father obviously had plenty on him. Oh, he did.
And so many, in fact, like the father was so dreadful. So apparently it was just after the depression and, or maybe after the war, I'm sorry. And this poor kid was taken out of school, like eight years old, nine years old, as Lorraine described there. And he was put to work and it was abuse in itself. Like this poor kid on top of everything else that happened. But then like, so the daughter actually of Maurice, her name is Melinda Morissette.
She's actually describing something that happened because, so Maxine, who was the father of Maurice, who was a terrible, terrible man, well, he was capable of some dreadful things and he ended up being involved in a murder-suicide. I know that my grandfather took my grandmother to Oklahoma for a vacation and my mom had to call me. I was at school.
And he had shot her. Actually, he tried to shoot her twice. The first bullet missed. He shot her in the head and then he killed himself. He shot himself. The true evil of that. I mean, to kill yourself is one thing and terrible anyway, but to kill someone else and then cowardly kill yourself, it's like he must have been on top of being so psychologically damaged. You have to question what we're talking about with Maurice here. Mm-hmm.
Was there another? I mean, I'm not taking away from his responsibility. Ultimately, it's their responsibility. But was there something attached to him? Was there something connected to him? And so with what was occurring to Maurice as this activity continued for many, many years, I think, and the wives that he went through, he ultimately ends up with a woman by the name of Nancy. And, you know, Nancy was there with some of these exorcisms or like these, I think a couple he had gone through. We'll get to the big one in a moment. But as they were attempting to
Release the clutches of these things. We find that these demons, these entities, they start attacking Maurice. Following Sunday, Maurice and Nancy were going to church. There's steep steps going up to the church. They got to the top step. Maurice somersaulted backwards through the air and down to the pavement. But you didn't get hurt. Hmm.
I mean, that's a big set of stairs to fall down. But look where he was going. He was going to a place that might have provided him with some type of refuge from these. They're trying to prevent him. And it doesn't end. So play the next one. This is Nancy describing something she saw occur to Maurice one day. All of a sudden I turned around and I saw this whoosh go by. And it was a two by four. Flew across the greenhouse, hit him in the head and knocked him down.
What the hell? Like a piece of two by four smacks him in the head. It's like these things, it's like they were losing their grip on him. So they start attacking him. So this is where we come to the actual exorcism. And this apparently is real footage of the exorcism that was performed on Maurice. And like I was saying, I was highlighting how people's faces change. It's like, just watch his face in this video coming up. This is 21. Yes, please.
And the exorcism will be the first ever recorded on videotape. A tape that shows Maurice's face changing from this to this as the bishop chanted to cast out the devil. Look at his face. Well, I mean, are we meant to notice a difference there? Because the quality is pretty low. If I go...
Keep watching. That's his wife. He was very telling the name.
as the video shows far more was about to change on therios face than its expression as bishop mckenna chants therios skin seems to bubble a deep crack has opened on his forehead i see characteristics of his face look like they're becoming all crinkle like burnt there's a split on the left side of the head which widens opens up the eyes
He blinks three times, which we consider an insult to the Trinity. The eyes look like a serpent. How many are you? All of a sudden, his eyes rolled up in his head. Oh, that's weird. And his head went down. He collapsed. And within a few minutes,
came to, the first thing he asked for was Nancy, his wife. It's a shame we're dealing with such low... I know, it's VHS tape, which has been, you know, like from 20, 30 years ago. But you can see the crack and you can see the bubbling of the skin there. Like there's something that's very...
non-human about that look on his face. And this time and time again, we hear this from eyewitnesses of exorcism, you know, multiple eyewitnesses that the physical characteristics changed greatly. Well, that, uh, Coyle, uh, Roger Coyle, he apparently was there. You've got police officers that are there. You've got the priests that's there. You've got the, the Warrens that were there. Uh, you know, there were multitudes of people that were involved in this watching. So apparently this was it like that performed the exorcism and it was over.
When it was over, his skin was clear. Maurice seemed like his former self, and his wife's nightmare subsided for a time. That horrifying look on his face disappears. And he's back to being the Morris you know, right? The nice one. Right. But last year, without warning, the demons seemed to take over Maurice in a hideous final possession that would explode in bloodshed.
This is the backfire, right? So they perform this exorcism that use this religious protocol. And it seems like everything was working, but 1991, so the same last year, 1992 is when this came out. 1991 is when he started to change and he got more violent. It was truly horrible. But his daughter, who we were playing a little bit earlier there before, Melinda, she said he did something really weird one day. And this goes to show you, I'll see if you can pick it up.
That there's something occurring with him where she's like, he's not in the driver's seat. He shows up at her house one day. He came to the house. He said, I want you to have one last shot with me. And I'm like, I don't drink. What are you talking about? And just the demeanor on his face. And he never kissed me. He wasn't a huggable person. He didn't show love. But he was this day. I'm like, this is not him.
And so at that point, I'm like, Maureen, I told my older sister, Maureen, the one that was there with me, I said, come with me. We've got to go there. We've got to stop. I was like I could see two bodies. I felt this was going to happen because my father always said he was going to go the same way his father and mother did.
So he's not demonstrative, but all of a sudden that day he is. She doesn't drink. He rocks up saying, let's have a drink. It's like he doesn't even know who his daughter is. Now, yeah, okay, that could be someone who was just having a psychotic break, but she's like, I can see two people. And she may be using poetic license there.
But for me, this is consistent with what you hear with so many of these possession cases of like, it's not the person you know. There's something in the driver's seat. And that becomes very apparent. So at this point, and when he's always said- Sorry to interrupt, but how far past the successful exorcism is this? I believe it was a number of years. I think it was like seven years. Don't quote me on that, but it was a number of years. Things were okay, but yeah, a number of years.
Um, but see this particular day, there already had been a restraining order because he'd become violent towards Nancy. So Nancy had placed a restraining order on him and he'd snapped. And because of the way his father had gone and obviously his daughter realizes there's something, he's probably going to shoot someone. He might shoot Nancy. So she and her sister go over to Nancy's home, which is the home. And
It's like there's no car. It's almost like he planned this. Even for someone who may be psychotic, he's put all this effort into this planning. And apparently he'd spent all day just hiding down in the basement waiting for Nancy to come home. And Nancy doesn't come home. It's his daughter. So if you can play number 24, please, Ben. As we walked into the house, he started to write the letter. And I heard a pounding coming up from the basement. And it was footprints. And I heard it and I knew it.
And it busted open, and I had a double-barrel shotgun pointed at my face. My father thought that I was Nancy, which was his wife. And he said, calm down, calm down. I went to grab the phone to call 911. He had already cut the phone lines. He had a truck parked a mile behind the house, so nobody would even think he was there. You wouldn't know that he was there. There was no visible signs. There's no police station in Whaley.
I got him to sit down on the couch and try to talk and reason with him to calm down, praying that Nancy would not come home. And Nancy came in, drove in the driveway, and he got up in a rage. She came through the door, and my father said, we need to talk. And he said to her, I want to talk to you. And she started swearing, no, I don't want to talk to you. And she said, get the F out of my house. And with that, he...
Shot her in the arm. So he shot her in the arm. And the story goes that she had ran out of the house and he'd actually shot through the window and managed to get her. He runs outside in this state, grabs her and drags her back inside. And he sits down though, apparently. And I've got some audio for you of Nancy describing seeing something like she's facing death of this maniac about to shoot her.
But something happens. This is 25. It's like he's fighting with somebody. He's going to put the gun in his mouth. He's not going to put the gun in his mouth. And I just sat there. Finally, he got the gun in his mouth. He pulled the trigger. His head goes back. His head goes up. His body goes back. And the only thing that I could say when he did it was amen.
It's an incredible thing to do. But you can start to see, like, hang on, he's struggling with it? And so you would think, well, he's just trying to make a decision as to whether or not he's going to make this choice, this dreadful choice, horrible choice. But is there something else? And this is something that Ed Warren picked up on. He aimed the gun at her, but suddenly the good part of Maurice somehow overtook him. He looked at her and he put the gun in his mouth and killed himself. He could have killed her right there, but he didn't. So I see where good...
had taken over evil. So it's like he knew he couldn't control the entity, so he decided to take his own life rather than hurt his daughter. No, his wife. His wife, sorry, yeah. So he couldn't, yeah. I'm not sure what to think of that. I'm fascinated. It's obvious there's something supernatural happening with his face, so it tends to make me believe that he has got something supernatural
controlling him. And maybe that's what it is. Maybe, yeah, it's like he'd been taken over by these horrible forces because of that trauma he suffered as a child. And he realized the only way to protect his wife was to kill himself. And so the exorcism, you said, what, two years prior to
obviously wasn't final. It wasn't final. Yeah. It's interesting when you use that in his example, because I can't remember if it was the last case that I covered. I was just looking through my notes. I know I did this Annalise Michael story from Germany in 1976. It might've been from that, but I know I've heard this a number of times over the years when we're covering exorcism stories and the exorcists have said this explicitly that at the completion of
completion of an exorcism or at the final moment where they need to reject the entity wantingly and turn themselves over to a higher power. It's up to the individual, but I've heard this multiple times where they say, that's not the end. It's like once that exorcism is done, it's enough. The exorcists have said that you have to work with the individual to
along with the church to make sure that they stay within the moral teachings of the church. If they start to fall outside of those moral teachings of the church, they are immediately vulnerable again. Well, you have to wonder, it's like, did this guy, because of his trauma, you know, like it actually did cause a personality problem. And
for whatever reason, like, yeah, he was okay for a while, but then he just kept on going back to maybe falling into anger or being abusive. And that in itself was enough to allow something else to come in. I'm not entirely sure if they left in the first place. I think it was like they were still inhabiting him. Yeah, well, that's a good point. The other thing I was going to point out that I remember reading from one of the exorcists is you never...
You never 100% know that the entity's gone and it's resolved. And that's why they have to be within the arms of the church for a long time afterwards, because it's not clear. It's not clear on the surface. It might look like everything's okay, but you don't know what's going on inside someone's mind or their heart. It's impossible to tell. And then yet again, though, we come back to this place of like, well, what about people that the church has checked them and it doesn't fall within their gamut?
It doesn't fall within their ability to help them. Well, let's get into it in plus. I want to hear about these mutant ghosts. What I wanted to leave you with, I'll just leave this with you. So have a look at Eros and Evil by Masters. And there's actually some writing in there about demons abducting women, right? Demons abducting witches. And there's this whole idea. Is this the sexual psychopathology of witchcraft? So there's this whole historic kind of thing about witches
women copulating with dead bodies and demons, right? Erotic cannibalism. Yeah, pretty much. So what they would do is there was this phenomenon where, of course, they would –
And I don't know if it's medieval or maybe a little bit later, but these women would go and do sexual acts with the devil and copulate with these things. But what they would do, they would leave a copy, like a familiar, in the bed. And so it would be like a doppelganger, like what we've heard in these cases of possession, right? They would leave their doppelganger in their bed. So if their husband rolled over to see if their wife was there...
She'd be lying there, but it was actually a doppelganger of her. And so they would go off. But in this particular book, right, it references this story of where usually upon mountaintops, these women would go and copulate with these demons and corpses and would be having sex with them. But apparently in some of these cases, they realized that they were dealing with a technology.
They weren't having sex with demons or corpses. It was like the veil was ripped away and they were having sex with metallic objects. What the hell? They were being prodded with metallic objects. And this is something that Nathaniel references is like they're masquerading in accordance with the understandings of those women for the time and their surroundings. So you've got like a medieval report of women thinking they're having sex with the devil, but
But it's like an ET abduction style thing. It's like a technology. Some kind of extraction machine. Which they would have no knowledge or understanding of. In the time, it was just like a metallic object, but it was like a technology. So what do we know that is today? The hybrid program and ETs. They're all the same entities that have been, but what does it come back and down to? Trying to take over the bodies of humans.
That's what these mutated ghosts want. This reminds me of the seminal work, Magnus, the Micromut and the Pharaoh's Curse. Well, there is a robot dog involved. Coming up in the Plus extension. But let's get into what you just discussed. I want to talk about that after the break for our Plus members. Yeah, more coming up. Fascinating stuff. More coming up on this episode. If you want to get access to the extension...
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If you're on Plus, stick around for the great stuff after the break. For everyone else, we'll catch you next week. Welcome back to your Plus extension. Great to have you with us.