34.01 - MU Podcast - Cursed Exposure
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Welcome to Mysterious Universe, Season 34, Episode 1. Coming up on this show, we've got photographic phantoms, the rise of the vegetable phoenix, and have aliens hijack DMT. I'm your host, Benjamin Grundy. Joining me is Aaron Wright. I've heard such a concept from numerous anecdotes of people that have taken things like, you know, ayahuasca and other hallucinogens, suggesting that they're not interacting with...

what would it be, interdimensional beings that they're interacting with ET beings. Well, this came up in this new book by Andrew Gallimore, who has been writing about DMT for years now. He's a neurobiologist, he's a pharmacologist, really smart guy.

And he understands, I think, the true nature of what people experience in that it's more than just hallucinations. Oh, absolutely. And the reason for that is because, again, anecdotally, but so many people that are disconnected from each other report very similar entities. That's right. You see these consistencies in people's reports. He's got a new book out. It's called Death by Astonishment. It's got a forward by Graham Hancock.

It's really good. Because of his neuroscience background, he spends a lot of time trying to explain what people see with neuroscience.

And he- Does that work? Well, he fails. Yeah. But I think he knows that he's going to fail. He does this on purpose. He goes through every avenue that could possibly explain what people are experiencing. Like huge chapters on which part of the brain is receiving information from where and EEG studies on what's happening when people are exposed to the drugs. But all within the brain, right? All within the brain. No antenna concept or theory whatsoever.

It's like it's all being generated within the mind, not received by the mind.

Well, ultimately, he comes to a dead end with every avenue he tries to pursue to achieve some kind of neuroscience explanation for what people see on DMT. You know, the machine elves, the weird mantis beings, all the strange things people see. You know, the usual suspects of these hideous creatures, these mantid creatures. Every avenue he follows from a neuroscience perspective, it falls flat in some way. It cannot explain the phenomenon.

But then he starts to entertain this idea of an external agency, an external force that is doing the manipulation of the brain. So it still has a neuroscientific explanation. Yeah, of course it would. I mean, there still has to be materialist effects taking place to facilitate it. But he still lands on this concept of an external sentience.

doing the interaction, actually controlling the experience. It's really fascinating. And it starts with this Korean guy that desperately needed his help. Gallimore got an email from the guy. He'd just been to Peru for one of these... For an ayahuasca session. Yeah, one of these ayahuasca sessions. And it went horribly, horribly wrong. Did he get like a fake shaman or something? He was tortured. Tortured.

Tortured by aliens. What?

He went there to like find some healing and he was hoping to contact Mother Ayahuasca. And this is one of those like one-shotted by Ayahuasca stories, but absolutely despicable in its evil nature. These entities completely tortured him to the point of sanity. And he reached out to Gallimore because he was convinced that extraterrestrials have actually hijacked the DMT molecule.

So initially, when it was used by shamans, traditionally, they would get in touch with something else. You know, the spirit of ayahuasca, the mother of the vine, all those kind of descriptions. But also more benevolent entities. Yeah. To a degree. But he claims that these other external entities have now evolved.

basically hijacked the DMT molecule. So they actually get to you before you go to the traditional place you would normally end up if you took ayahuasca.

So as you're in the trip or in the experience, they intercept you. They intercept you. They've figured out a way to intercept you. They've basically hijacked the molecule. A thought crossed my mind actually from the last Plus episode that we covered earlier this week where we came back and we were talking about Robert Hastings. And of course, Robert Hastings has written a couple of books on UFOs being associated with nuclear missile silos and those sorts of things. Like incredible work, done amazingly well.

And he highlighted the fact that later in life, it came to him through regression hypnosis and other means that he realized that the reason why he was so obsessed with this topic was because he has a lifetime of abduction experiences. And he describes in there things like waking up in the night and physically seeing these things being in his room or sensing that they're in his room. And it's always this same creature, like the image that you just put up, Ben, which just

it just makes your skin crawl. Like they're just, it's just, they're just horrible. They are disgusting. But in saying that, what I was thinking about, I was like, because I suggested on that show, I was like, it's just weird that this guy, it's like this chicken and the egg scenario because he spent a lifetime of researching UFOs. And then later on after hypnosis, he's like, oh, I've been abducted. It's like, did,

Did the beings push you in the direction of researching, which is what he suggested in his research or in his book, or was it that you just got so deep in the weeds that this has kind of been created in your mind, not making it any less real in his belief, but still it's like, which one is it? But then I thought about it. Is it possible with all these people that we talk about with regression hypnosis, right? Mary Rodwell. It seems like...

every person that goes to Mary Rodwell seems to have a very similar story. And so from a skeptical standpoint, you can go, well, is she coloring? I'm not saying she is, but I'm just questioning. Is it being led? Is that what's going on? But not just her. There's numerous people within this field that utilize regression as a technique. But I'm like, why is it that when these people go and see them, they're always ending up seeing greys? Like it's just over and over again. They're never different beings, really. It's always these creepy beings, these creepy grey things.

And I started thinking about it. Is it not possible?

not possible that maybe when the whole abduction thing started, like they found Earth in the 70s, the 80s, when the abduction scenario is really ramped up, they're like, that's not working. That's like, yeah, we're getting the samples that we need. It's not working. We need to invade them a different way. So why not get to them through when people access other realms? And that is in hypnagogic states. Because of course, what happens when you're in hypnagogic state or in the sleep state? You have DMT being released. You have melatonin being converted into DMT, if I recall correctly. All these things

biochemically are going on, you don't need to take an external drug like DMT to permit them access to you. You just need to be in these states. Well, of course, ultimately, Gallimore needs to answer that question of who are they? Because he lands on this conclusion that there is this external force that's kind of shaping the DMT experiences. But of

Who are they? What do they need from us? What are they trying to do? And he goes to John Mack. John Mack features heavily. And John Mack, once he was introduced to the alien abduction phenomenon by... Oh, it was the South... Wasn't it the South America? No, that came later. Cynthia Hind? Why am I drawing a blank? Because you didn't sleep. No, I did sleep. Oh, you did? It was...

Who's the guy that we became disillusioned with? Bud Hopkins. It was Bud Hopkins. Who was referenced by Robert Hastings. Yeah, I mean, it was Bud Hopkins in his golden years when he was working with genuine cases and he introduced these abductees to John Mack and John Mack thought, okay, well, what category of psychosis can I put these people in? But then he started to listen to their stories and he realized they weren't psychotic. They were just totally normal people, traumatized, but totally normal people with psychosis.

stories that overlapped even though they didn't know each other. There were these consistencies and he believed them. But he pretty quickly realized that he wasn't dealing with a nuts and bolts abduction phenomenon. The idea of aliens coming down in flying saucers from another star system didn't really fit with what he was seeing.

And so it's interesting that you have this neuroscientist who is approaching the DMT topic, trying to solve it from a neuroscientific perspective, ultimately landing on these guys and then for answers going to John Mack. That's coming up in the PLOS extension. Who sadly died in like, I wouldn't, it's not mysterious circumstances, but he died well before his time. And you have to wonder, it's like,

Was he getting too close to something? Did he get one-shotted? Well, I don't know. And because he was an incredible researcher, so you have to wonder with this kind of stuff. But look, we'll get into that a little bit later on in the show. Yeah, what have you got? Well, this episode, actually, I was inspired by, of course, when we were on break, I was in Japan and I met up with a local and he

Once he asked me what I did for a living, I was just, normally I'm quite careful about what I say, but I'm a podcaster. Wait, you had a conversation with a local? I did. I did. In half English, half Japanese. And my Japanese was terrible. Like truly terrible. I don't know how I'm ever going to pick it up. But anyway. Were you like alien? I know. So that's the problem, right? Then you get nervous. And so I accidentally put an O on the end of an English word.

I'm like, that's close enough. Bigfoot. But it's true. There's like, so it's a roo on the end. So it's like, and I'm like, what am I doing? I'm an idiot. A podcast. A bigfoot. A very important podcast. No, that's awful. I'm not that racist or insulting. That's terrible. But anyway.

I was talking about what I did and immediately, like he got really interested in like the haunted, because he's had ghostly experiences, right? And he was like, because he renovates houses, that's his job. And he was like, oh yeah, it's like you renovate houses here in Japan and it actually stirs up ghostly activity. All right. Have you ever heard anything like that? I'm like, yeah, it's really strange. It's like people will live in an

old house, like in Australia or in England or the US and everything will be fine. You renovate it. Then all of a sudden you've got poltergeist like activity. You've got, you know, it's like you disturb the spirits. He's like, yeah, that seems to happen here quite a lot. Obviously the Japanese approach is a little bit more, um,

there's not ridicule. There's more like a cultural belief in it, but it's also like, just keep it, you know, very quiet. But one thing he came up with was actually the concept of the death cameras. And I was like, yeah, and I'd never heard of this before. Right. So it, it seemingly, I don't know if it inspired the ring, but it's fits into like, it comes up as an urban legend and animes and that kind of stuff. And it's this story of where like,

And apparently someone found this vintage camera in an antique store or something. And when they found this camera, it's like, it was a really beautiful camera and it was, but it was old. Like it was really, really old and they weren't sure if it was going to work or not. So they get it and they find that they can use it. So they take it out to this remote part of the countryside and start taking photographs. And,

After they start taking photographs in this weird like final destination series of events, the person realizes that the people they're taking photographs of die in mysterious circumstances. This sounds like creepypasta.

Or creepy udon, I should say. Yeah, it's creepy udon. Yeah, it's creepy soba. Soba, sorry. Like that's what's going on. And then it gets even more like creepy soba because it's like the guy works out that, oh, this is really, really bad. So he throws the camera off a cliff or something and he comes home and opens the soji screen and it's like the camera's like sitting there and then you hear in the background. Yeah.

But it's this story. It's like, as much as it's an urban legend, it's like this belief that's there that, yeah, like there's this well-known story. And I guess, you know, that kind of makes sense. There's stories that we know. Like, I guess like a legend that we would have here in Australia would be like the phantom motorcyclist. It's like when you're driving along a highway and then, you know, someone who's died in a motorcycle crash will come up behind you. It's like everyone...

It kind of knows those anecdotal stories. Urban legend. Yeah, it's an urban legend, but there's no actual source for it. So I was really inspired by that because I was like, oh, I wonder if there is actually any original stories. Did that start somewhere? And because it's a camera, it can't be more than 100 years old. So there's got to be something. And there's not, of course, because it's an urban legend. But when I looked, I found that similar sorts of stories and these urban legends have shown up all across the US. Yeah.

There's like stories of the haunted Polaroid. So it's like the urban legend has now been adapted to a Polaroid. And apparently this is that the Polaroid camera carries his deadly curse. The story goes that a photographer while on vacation found an old Polaroid camera at a thrift shop. You see the similarities? It's identical almost. I excited to use it. He snapped several pictures.

some of which are perfectly normal, but one showed a strange and ominous shadow figure in the background. Soon after, the photographer noticed that everyone he had photographed using that camera began to suffer mysterious fortunes. So they're not dying, as in the Japanese story, but car accidents, sudden illnesses, and occasionally deaths. One person who was photographed using this camera died in a car crash. Another had an unexplained fall and so on.

The photographer tried to get rid of the camera, but in the end, it always ended up back in his possession. So it's this same kind of urban legend somehow has moved. I don't know whether or not it started in the US and then moved to Japan or what, but I don't know. It's like one of these stories that go everywhere. There's a whole heap of them. There's like the haunted Kodak, which starts off, again, very similar people getting photographed. But I was intrigued because I was like,

The photographic proof, right, is something which is intimately linked into supernatural and paranormal phenomena. Like it's been around as long as the camera has been around. And in fact, I think it was soon after the commercial camera was produced and people were utilizing them, that they were capturing images of apparently deceased spirits and loved ones. This stuff has been going on for a long time. You have the Cottingwood's fairy thing, which is obviously a hoax. Like if you look at that, it's a complete hoax. But

These sorts of stories really fill the annals of history with this kind of stuff of people trying to capture stuff on film. So I thought, okay, let's dig into some of these stories. And I thought about this death by camera concept.

And I thought, mate, and there are, there are some like. Death by camera. Yeah. Yeah. So there are some. Isn't that like the whole native tribe thing where you get a photo taken, it steals your soul? Steals a part of your soul. Yeah. There's like those traditional cultures have those sorts of ideas. Funny it was true. Well, I mean, that's terrible. That's so horrible.

God. So easy to take over a country. You really could. Just go over and take a few photos. That's a good point. This is mine now. And then of course, even here in Australia, it's like the depiction of a deceased Aboriginal person on any type of media is considered to be not great either. So these sorts of things have been around. So there is this superstition connected in with that kind of stuff. So look,

Maybe skip forward. If you're really affected by stories about animals, skip forward five minutes or so. Because I did dig, right? I did dig. I thought there has to be something out there that relates to this kind of phenomenon where I've actually got a source, some kind of evidence. And I did in digging through an old fate magazine, right? So I went back to a fate magazine from 1956, from November of that year. And I

I found a story by Olita Martin and she basically described, she said, this is the sixth time that this happened. It's a series of deaths which started eight years ago in 1948. And I'm like, oh, okay, what's this?

It's about animals, right? Really? Yeah, it's about animals. She said, in 1948, we owned this beautiful Snow White Samoyed dog. And apparently, she writes, our neighbors owned this black dog of the same breed. Although I don't think Samoyeds can be black. But regardless, these dogs would play together and everyone would laugh at their funny and amusing kind of antics. And it was very amusing. And on this one particular day...

She pulls out this camera that she has, which has never done anything unusual in the past, and she takes a picture of the dogs. And she writes, about two weeks after I took this picture, our neighbor's dog died suddenly and apparently without any cause or reason. Now, the neighbors were so grateful to her for taking the photograph because that's the last photograph they had of their dog, and they were very appreciative of it. And she says, however, five months later, their white Samoyed, who was called Tippy, was

was killed. Now, she doesn't write how it was killed, but she says, we were heartbroken because this dog had lived with them for seven years and no other pet could take his place. And she said that we were quite glad because very soon afterwards, we had this big setter who came onto our farm shortly after the death of Tippi. And, you know, even though they're upset about the loss of their other dog, very quickly, it became, you know, very heartwarming to them. This is this great dog. And this dog just showed up. Well, they did have...

A collar, apparently. They tried to find the owners, but they couldn't get in contact with them. So they called this dog Buddy. And Buddy was this shiny black furred dog, extremely playful, very lovely. And of course, she wanted to take a photograph of him. So she snapped one in 1952. Before the role of film was even developed, death had struck and poor Buddy was killed exactly the same way that Tippi had died. It's the curse. Yeah, well, this is what she's saying. She's like...

She's like, I vaguely felt like this is after, you know, three animals that have died that I shouldn't have taken this picture. She just gets this feeling, but she dismissed it. This is a silly thought. This is a ridiculous idea. But she's like, now we have to test it with a selfie. No, we will. Yeah. Good point. But she's like, now we had no dogs. Uh, we did have two lovely cats and they were this constant delight.

So what does she do again? She takes their picture. She takes their picture and you know what's going to happen. I took their pictures and both cats were killed. One was killed on a highway. The other one was shot. Both died in October of 1953. Another one was shot. Yeah, shot. But they're in a farming community. So who knows? Like maybe the cat strayed onto someone else's property and they thought it was a stray. I don't know.

Uh, she said, but home was now this lonely place. Afterwards, we had no pets. And, uh, eventually though, our 10 year old daughter, Sharon found herself a half starved yellow kitten and brought it home quite promptly. We also found a black kitten to keep it company and you should have seen them swing on the curtains and pounce from the behind the chairs. They were happy little clowns. One day her daughter says to her mother, you ought to take their picture. You know how we're always losing animals. We'd better get their picture.

It hadn't dawned on this 10-year-old kid that maybe the taking of the photograph is potentially the cause. But she writes that icy fear gripped my heart and I actually shook mentally. And she's thinking, I'm not superstitious. But to actually try and rid her of it, right, to prove that she's not superstitious, she's like, this is so silly. Takes the photograph. Again, right, of these two things. She said this was August 1954.

By September, the little black kitten was dead. Wow. Killed by a horrible disease in which the veterinarian could not specify. That same September, our yellow cat got caught in a trap. His leg was mangled and soon afterwards he disappeared. Okay. Trying to prove to yourself that you don't have a superstition and you're killing animals, it's probably time just to throw out the camera, okay? Go and buy a new camera. Was it a Pentax 17? No, I doubt it. The fascist choice for evil cameras?

Modernity fears the fascist Pentax 17.

Anyway, so she writes, for some months, I was actually oppressed by this vague fear. I was really concerned that I was being ridiculous. My superstition was overwhelming me. I was being ignorant and weak-minded. How is it even possible that a camera could kill our pets? And I arrived at the conclusion that the series of successive deaths, after you've taken a photograph every time, lady, was only due to a strange series of coincidences.

Okay. So she says, after determining this, my conflicting emotions disappeared and my mind was once again at peace. So apparently her daughter-in-law was going off to overseas or something. She was returning home to see her mother in Europe and in Germany. And of course she has three cats. So she says to her mother-in-law, she's like, do you mind if you can look after my cats? And she says, yeah, of course I can. Not a problem. And she did. She

She said, here it is. I can eliminate the feeling that I've got regarding this camera and the experiences that has happened. This is a test. I need to overcome this. And she said, my family was always loving and thoughtful and nothing has ever happened. So there's no reason for my camera to be causing the deaths of these animals. So eventually the mother, the daughter-in-law writes to her and says, oh, I'm really missing my beautiful Mimi, one of her cats. Could you please take a photograph of it? And she's like,

Oh, come on. Like, this is ridiculous. She says, as though I was in a dream, I found myself reaching towards the camera. Oh, please. Trembling. Just don't take a photo. I held the camera and I clicked it. Then crash. The camera fell from my nerveless fingers and was broken. Oh.

She then found the cat mangled in the dishwasher. No, no. She said only a short time later, Mimi's body was discovered, crushed and broken to death. I had taken her picture and was she killed by the act? What else can I believe? She's now buried beneath the apple blossom trees at the front of our property. So she's like...

That's awful. You can't do that. I like you starting the last season that we're hosting strong. Oh, with the hottest of chaff. Starting strong. The hottest of chaff, right? So she actually is convinced that, yeah, like in her foolishness trying to prove that she wasn't superstitious, that there was something connected to this camera.

And I do wonder about this because as, you know, cliche is what she's describing is, there is an abundance of cursed objects that seemingly carry these sorts of effects, not to the point of death, but it seems like in a lot of cases though, animals are more affected.

by these sorts of curses. And there's like a whole history of them. It's like, it really is that classic thing. I told you about the story about psychometrists going into antique stores. They can literally see certain objects glowing with the effect of some type of imprinting or a, and it's not just the history of that object. It's also that they can see that it's got some type of energy, some influential energy attached to it. What makes you say animals are more susceptible? So in these stories, well, in many of these stories, right, of where these curses are attached to them, it's like animals

animals die. Like their pet will die. The dog will disappear in mysterious circumstances, this kind of stuff. And it's like, I wonder if there's a certain level. I don't know if it's like, um,

what would it be? It's like, there's a level of like black magic that you can only apply to animals. A weaker constitution or something. Yeah. Yeah. But if you want to knock off a human being, you got to put a lot more effort into it. You know, maybe that's what's going on, but look, I'll link to this old magazine so you can go and find that story for yourself. But I really was fascinated by this, this topic. And I started looking into a little bit deeper. I thought, is it possible that

There is something about the photograph or the camera itself that can influence its surroundings. And while there aren't a lot of stories that actually have sources to them about it causing a curse, much like what clearly that story was,

There are many stories, though, of cameras being utilized to capture things that we normally can't see. And that's kind of classic, though. That's standard. There's so many reports of people saying that when they take a photograph, they see an orb. And in that orb, most of the time it is a speck of dust. But sometimes it's like when there's a face in it.

obviously people say it's pareidolia, but also it's like if it's in a haunted location, maybe we're capturing something. We're capturing something of another time, another place. Well, where that really stands out is actually the research of a Russian scientist by the name of Henry Silanov. Now, Silanov actually...

actually founded a photo studio where you can go and see this collection of a work of around 80 unusual photographs where he claims he has captured photographs of aliens, paranormal activities, ghosts, anything that's unusual or supernatural, and people from past years.

He thinks that he may have developed a camera which can actually capture the trailing electrons of time, right? What? Yeah, it's a really intriguing concept. And he came about it in a really strange way. So he's a geologist, right?

And as part of his job for geology, you use photographic, not necessarily cameras, but you use optical and photographic equipment for being able to examine the rocks and examine materials so you can determine what they are. And in doing so, he's developed different lenses. Like he'd grind his own lenses and he would use like gelatin filters and this kind of stuff to be able to apply it to objects.

his geology work. But strangely enough, he noticed that throughout just his experiences that he realized that he was capturing something else. And it all started when he photographed a girl packing up a tent

She was there at a camping ground and he knew this girl, so he wasn't being a creep apparently. But he was preparing his camera to take a picture. The random upskirt shot that revealed the nature of time. Immediately when I read that, I was like, mate, you're taking a photograph of a young girl packing up a tent. I was like, but anyway, I

Apparently, he was preparing his camera to take a photograph. And at the last moment, the girl stood up and came over to him, right? So she was actually standing next to him. When she was standing next to him, he took the photograph. And to his surprise, when the film was developed, he saw the girl in the shot bending over the tent.

He's like, that's where she was. Now, I don't know if he's like made up this whole thing to get away with the fact that his wife is like, why are you taking photographs of a girl bending over a tent? He makes up this story that it's some kind of time distortion. Really is just photographing her arm. He uses geophysics to explain to his wife how it's happened. He's like, oh, this isn't me. It's weird. It's weird. Like I was photographing the electrons of time. I have to dedicate my life to this obscure physics theory. Oh.

So my wife doesn't piss me off. So anyway, he says that when he looks at this, it's like he is sure that the picture depicting the girl was actually several seconds prior to the moment when he took the photograph. And he insists that the girl was next to him. So he started to think he hadn't photographed the girl, but the electromagnetic informational trace that she had left. Now, of course, this doesn't sound scientific absolutely.

at all. And being an experienced geologist, he's aware of that. He's like, there's no way, like no one would ever believe, including his wife, that he was photographing a moment in time. But he started to realize that this happened over and over again. So this repeated. I was going to say, how on earth would he repeat this? Yeah. He said he took tens of such photographs that had the same effect. Like he took many more photographs, but in tens of these photographs, he started to notice this same effect.

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Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. Now, I don't know. It's not said in this article and in the story where I was digging around today. I found another story, and I'll link to a couple of articles that describe this, is that he actually developed some type of gelatin-style filter that would go over the lens, and the lens was ground to a certain way using a special filter.

crystalline material. I don't know. It's like some... Yeah, I was going to say, if he's just using a conventional camera, you would think you would see this more than once with his random photo. But is this like a... What's his name? Ted Sirios? What was that? Oh, yeah. The psychic camera guy? Yeah, the photography guy. Is that a situation where it's just...

him individually affecting the camera equipment with some kind of psychic influence? That's a good idea. I thought maybe, but what he was doing is he was getting, and maybe it is him. I hadn't actually really got into that thought, but it did seem to affect other people that use the equipment.

So it's like there was something going on with the equipment. So he ended up going into, where was it here? He actually went to St. Petersburg Hermitage. Now he photographed the throne, right?

He claims he developed a picture. No, you're not that guy that you've got on screen, Ben. And remember with him that he could only do that thought photography when he was drunk? Yeah, that's right. Like when he was really drunk, he could come through. I was reading a little bit actually about him and I'll get into it in a moment about this thought photography that comes up. It's not really a big deal, but there is some idea that there was a scientist that postulated back in the, I don't know, the 60s or 70s talking about when this psi phenomenon was taking off.

that consciousness actually exists in the electromagnetic.

And so because of that, that's why you can imprint yourself onto film because all your thoughts can be imprinted onto film because that consciousness is electromagnetic. Light is electromagnetic. So that's why you're able to imprint it onto film. I'll come back to that in a moment though. So yeah, he claims that he photographed the face of Peter the Great who was sitting on the throne. So who knows how far into the past he was allegedly doing that.

But he continues to take photographs of the past. And he claims at one point that he'd had a thermos bottle that was sitting in an area of grass that he took a photograph of. But when he developed it, the thermos is there, but you also see the vague outline of a bucket, right? The bucket was actually in that location and it used to keep the milk that was stored in the thermos.

So it's like, has that somehow transferred into the effects of the thermos or is it just, it's all very unusual and difficult to explain, but it does inexplicably appear on film. Another photograph also shows this tree that had been broken in a storm. Now, Ben, if you just bring up the images I've got here, have a look at this photo, right? So this first image here,

is of where he'd taken a photograph of a vehicle. Now, the photograph on the left is that. So it's black and white. There's a car on the left. What looks like a telegraph pole in the middle. Telegraph pole in the middle, and he was taking a photograph of the car on the left. Now, if you zoom in, Ben, to the right-hand side,

it looks like there's another vehicle there, right? Yeah, like a black car maybe. Now, look, photography. With photography, shutter speed is, you know, obviously there's the three parts, the aperture, the shutter speed, and the ISO, which is more for digital photography. Regardless though, you're looking at...

the possibility here that he's taken a photograph with a really slow shutter speed. But if he had, if that vehicle was moving, you would see it like straight. Yeah. There'd be like that motion effect that would be coming up. He claims that in that photograph, that car was there like five minutes earlier. Oh, so this is a road. This is a road. So he's taken a photograph and he said that car was there, but when he took the photograph, it wasn't. It had been there five minutes earlier. So he'd capture like this weird outline. Hmm.

of like the electromagnetic trail of this car using this camera that he has. And I think it's this specialized camera he's describing. Um,

Now this continues, right? So if we bring up the second image here, now on the left-hand side here, this relates back to the idea of Kirlian photography and it's like that electrical- Famous experiment. Yeah, like the electrical scaffolding that you and I were talking about, Ben, with the energy healing at the end of last season, that all living things have this kind of electrical scaffolding in them. And even if you damage it, like a plant here, when you photograph it with special equipment or specialized equipment, you are able to capture that

The surviving part, right? Energetic body. In his photography, he claims he did the same. Oh, so that's a tree that's been cut down. No, the top of the tree has been knocked off in a storm. Right. And what's left is this. Now, look, don't get me wrong. There is a whole heap of tricks and filters and a whole range of things that you can use to fake this kind of stuff.

He insists, though, that he hasn't faked this. And there is a documentary online, which I didn't even bother using. I did attempt to pull it out, but it's all in Russian. So it was just too fatiguing to be able to... No, I'm not bashing Russian language. Yeah, it's not show worthy. It wasn't show worthy, but I will link to it if you speak Russian or want to try and get through it with Translate.

But essentially, yeah, like he is claiming that this photograph was after a storm, that that wasn't there. That top part, that grayed out part of the tree was not there. It had been knocked off. But somehow in his photograph, he had captured it in the past. So I'm like, I'm intrigued by this. But maybe, I mean, maybe that's a clue as to what he's actually capturing. It's not something from the past. It's like, it's not...

the past. It's an energetic leftover of the past. Yeah. So, Silanov thinks that space is a huge hologram filled with information about everything that was ever placed or moved in it. Certain conditions make it possible to turn the memory of the space on. So, you can actually use this. He said the memory is materialized in the light quanta. I don't know what that means, but he says you can retrieve images of the past.

So he said this became his new hobby. Like this is what you running around with his equipment. This is what he wanted to do. So he would take trips to anomalous zones throughout certain areas of Europe and Russia. He went into the anomalous zone of the Hopyur River and he took essentially a group of, he called it a scientific expedition, but it's like just a group of people that were interested in this. And they took a bunch of photographs and he says in the photograph, someone took a photograph of just simply bushes, but in these bushes were profiles of soldiers that were

that were clearly standing out. And when they looked into it, it turns out that where they had taken those photographs, and they didn't know this apparently prior to taking the photographs, they knew it was an anomalous zone, that strange paranormal activity and lights had been seen in this particular area. They didn't know the history of it within World War II, but this area

depicted Czech soldiers in 1943. He says his quartz object, which is what he was using for his camera equipment, captured a military unit, which was known to be deployed in the area during the Second World War.

So it's like, yeah, I'm kind of convinced that all of these types of stories, because another one this reminds me of is the chronovisor and the Vatican priest who claimed he could use this device to view people and past events. Yeah. I'm convinced that a lot of these are simply psychic abilities and the tool allows them to channel it, channelize.

channel these abilities some individuals seem to have these abilities to view into the past because they're using a tool it's like when a psychic uses a pendulum yep eventually they don't need the pendulum anymore the pendulum is just a tool to channel their focus yeah i think you're onto something there like i think you're right it's like the for whatever reason and perhaps like being a scientist right he's already deeply into the material he's not allowing himself to you know understand this or believe it right unless there's a tool involved

Even though he doesn't understand how the tool works, it's like somehow the tool allows him to get over that barrier. It's like going back to the cat story, as horrible as that is, it's like you need something to get over that barrier. Something to focus on, yeah. Right, yeah. So within this, right, so apparently there's other photographs showing men wearing ancient clothes. When they looked into this, they found out that it was a Scythian man who apparently inhabited the region in ancient times.

There were soldiers with pointed helmets, which appeared to be golden horde warriors. And none of these photos are available. I'm presuming. No, no, no. These ones. I did look, of course, all the best ones, all the best. Instead, we get a tree. We get a tree. Uh, there is one of the Czech soldier, but it was so bad that I was like, okay, it could be pareidolia. Uh,

Apparently, though, there was one where you can see ropes hanging across the river, which obviously weren't there. And they realized that, oh, this is actually, it would have been some type of structure that they would have been building back then. There is one, right, which does undermine the credibility. So let me just send you this article, Ben, actually. I'll just show you this because I wasn't going to include this one. Well, with the chronovisor, we did get a photo of Jesus.

Oh, that is true. Yeah, we did. In this link I sent you, Ben, in Telegram, if you, let me just see how far we are. Maybe I don't have it in this one. Oh, I do. I do. If you scroll down like about a third of the way, just keep on coming down, keep on coming down. So that's, yeah, that's the Czechoslovakian soldier there. That's the soldier. So that's not great. The one that really stands. Is that the chick bending over? That's the chick bending over. Oh,

So I'm like, and you can see, you can see the, she's in her underwear. Exactly. And you can see the, like the effects of a slow shutter speed. He's totally doing what we were laughing at. He's taken a raunchy photo. Someone's caught him. Someone's caught him. And he's like, well, it's a, it's some kind of unknown physics. Yeah.

I need to further explore why this photo exists. I need to mount expedition to anomalous zone. That dinosaur photo is hilarious. Come on.

Come on, dude. How did you not see the dinosaur photo and just go, all right, well, I have to scrap this segment. Because I was already too far into the story for the day. And I was just like, well, this completely undermines my theory. So I'm just going to have to. And that's the thing, right? So this is why I clip, because when you see this, that does look absurd. It reminds me of the, I keep on getting it wrong, the Coddingwood's fairies, right? It's like, come on, mate. But is that, that's not his though. I've, it,

It looks different. I think they've just thrown this in. I think this is just like some random photo. That's what I'm wondering. They've just thrown into the article because it looks totally different to all these other pictures. And so does the Czech one as well from what was described. So in that photograph, if you scroll up there a bit more, Ben, it looks like there's two men standing in the road. Just up. Sorry. This one? Not that one. No. This one? No, not that one. So that apparently was that he claims that he took that when the men were no longer there.

Okay. So like that's one of his earlier kind of effects that were going on. Yeah, the dinosaur one's hilarious. But obviously not his photo. I don't think it's his because it says here another photograph depicts a dinosaur in that particular anomalous zone, which was probably hunting in the region millions of years ago. Yeah. So I don't know. But there, it goes on a little bit later where you've got like this continued, like this isn't an isolated kind of thing. Unless this guy too was trying to cover up for taking photographs of young girls. Yeah.

He claims there was an American citizen by the name of William Mumler. He took a picture of a ghost soon after the invention of photography. He took a picture of himself, like it's the first selfie, right? But was shocked to discover a see-through image of his cousin Sarah, who had actually died in that same house 12 years before. A girl could be seen in the picture wearing white clothes standing next to him. So this is apparently one of the earliest ghost images that's ever been captured. So I thought, okay, well, this really does tie in with these

These ideas. Here he is explaining the ass photo. Is there any audio? As I said, it's in Russian. I can't hear it. It's not coming through.

It is there. It's all in Russian. But this got me interested, right? So this relates to further experiments and a series of forgotten experiments, right? It's not the same thing. It's not photography, but it does tie into this idea that the details of structure of what is material and physical in our reality remains in a non-physical sense in that

fabric on our reality, right? And time is immaterial to it. It's just there. And it's like, it's actually, you know, it's projected in certain or depicted, I'm sorry, even in like modern sci-fi, you've got like the latest series or the, what's it called? Picard, right? So in Picard, that first season, you've got this woman who was working for, you know, some other group, but she forensically comes to a crime scene and she pulls out a little device and she's able to run this device through the ether, through the room and replay the

what happened in this crime. Yeah, there's always something left behind. There's something left behind, right? And then, of course, because it's like sci-fi, it's like, oh, they've scrubbed it, you know, they've gone into a lot of effort to scrub it. That's a very mystical idea as well. I mean, that is the Akashic record. Yeah. There is a record of everything that you can tap into. Everything. And it's not, and I was talking about the material and physical, right? But it's not just that, it's also thoughts. It's like thoughts and emotions and feelings and everything. It all kind of gets caught up in this fabric, in this ether, right?

And it's all accessible. It's always there all the time. And then that might go a little way to explain why people experience ghosts, why people see strange things. UFOs may not necessarily be in this time. There could be a whole range to explain what's going on because it's in this ether.

But there was a researcher, again, going back to scientists, right? So there was a researcher by the name of John Tyndall. He was a professor. He was a noted British physicist of the last century. He dealt with molecular physics, acoustics, and heat radiation. And he performed a very little-known experiment in the late 1800s. So in this, what Tyndall did is he took a series of glass tubes and with the vapors of certain acids, iodides, and nitrites,

he turned the tubes on their sides and arranged them to be parallel with a beam of electric light. So it's not a laser, but it was some type of focused electric light or focused sunlight. Now, apparently he made adjustments to heat these materials up until such a time that the vapors began to react. Now, gradually, and to Tyndall's astonishment, these clouds of vapors, he claims, began to coalesce and they would form into colored three-dimensional images of

animals, plants, and other shapes that had geometric form. At one stage during these experiments, Tyndall's was amazed to see swirling clouds suddenly change into the shape of a serpent's head, and as the serpent's mouth slowly opened, a long tendril of cloud emerged, forming a perfect tongue.

So the question is here, is that, well, first of all, it's- What's he inhaling from the chemicals? Mercury. Yeah, I'm serious. It sounds like an alchemical reaction. He's breathing in some concoction and he's having a hallucination. No, I don't think that's happening at all. Like this is sealed tubes that contain these materials. And yes, he's got acids and nitrites and iodines, which-

iodide, sorry, which may cause, but I don't think they're known for causing those sorts of hallucinations. Like maybe mercury, maybe other substances, but not this. And it was just simply, I mean, he was panned by other people in the scientific community. Like the detractors had a field day. They pointed out that the phenomena could easily be explained by the mechanical action of a beam of light upon which would normally stir molecules of vapor in certain spaces like globes and tubes, a process which was demonstrated by physicist Sir William Crookes.

Yet, of course, they omitted to mention how precisely shaped the images of flowers, vases, seashells, fishes, serpents' heads, and a number of other forms were. And that's a good point, right? Because some people had skeptically said, it's pareidolia in a way. Like he's seeing, like, yeah, it's like looking at a cloud. It's not even pareidolia. It's like looking at a cloud and interpreting it. It's like a Rorschach test for psychic physics. But they're like, no, that's not what was going on here. It was precision.

Like it was incredible kind of images that were being seen. And you have to remember, this guy was a scientist of excellent repute. He was a fellow and director of the Royal Institute. He was a president of the British Association. He was a disciple and confidant of Michael Faraday. He was modest, apparently charitable, a charitable man. And according to his peers, his research work was impeccable.

So why would he make these things up? The only possibility is, you're right, Ben, that he was hallucinating, but he was able to repeat these experiments. So I don't necessarily think that's what's going on. But not only was he able to replicate these experiments, apparently they've been performed before. Thomas Brown, in the 17th century, he was a physician and author who

he attempted similar experiments. Brown actually reduced a plant to ashes through a process of calcination. In doing so, he separated the salts from the ashes using a special fermentation. So in a way, it's kind of alchemical. He placed them in a glass vial. He then took the glass vial and much like the work of Tyndall, heated it. And as he heated it, he watched and he said the

ash or the, um, the materials started forming in the form of the plant they'd been taken from. So he said he could see, um, like the, the chemical structure or the chemical mixture, the reaction acting upon what was going on. There was a bluish and spectral hue that started to emanate. There was heat and shooting out upwards through in its primitive form was this, uh, symphony

of images that were coming through. You could see a stalk, leaves, and then flowers suddenly bloom and arise. The pale specter of the plant coming slowly forth from the ashes. Now, as the heat passed away, the magical scene would decline and the whole matter would precipitate itself back into the chaos at the bottom of the vial. The vegetable phoenix thus lies concealed in its cold ashes.

ashes. And I like that concept. Vegetable Phoenix. I thought that's kind of cool, right? So it does have shades of Kirlian photography, right? But just in a different way. It's like it's broken but the actual form

Even though it's been annihilated, most of its structure has been annihilated. It's been completely transformed. The scaffolding, the energetic scaffolding within the ether is still there. It's still connected to that material. And that's how they were able to repeat it. Now, it sounds a little bit more convoluted than just simply putting something into a glass and heating it up. What's being described there does sound to be a little bit different. But this potentially represents different scientific interpretations of the bio blueprints, which is

which is what curling and photography has, pardon me, highlighted. And of course, you know, it's like this would have applications for forensic medicine if we could actually further study this and not ridicule it and try to replicate it. Imagine how burnt evidence could be visually resurrected. Yeah, and from what we've been researching over the years, it seems as though that

energetic scaffolding, that other body is primary in terms of health and wellness. Correct. If that is treated first, the physical body will follow. So even some of the studies that we were looking at on one of the recent shows was the applications with mice that were claiming they could regrow limbs. That's right. Yes. By treating that other body with magnetic frequencies,

Or magnetics, I should say. It brings to mind this one I saw on X the other day. Have you seen this? No, I haven't seen this. It's an image of the head and torso of a man sitting in total darkness, the only source of the light forming the image. So you can basically see a light silhouette of a man sitting

Oh, the spontaneously emitted biophosphorescence coming from his own body. Biophotons. Oh, biophotons, I'm sorry. For reasons that are not entirely understood. Okay. The eyeballs do not emit many photons. So they appear as dark. That's why it's dark. But basically we're emitting light all the time. Living things are always emitting light. So this is from Professor Roland Vick in...

at Utrecht University in the Netherlands. Right. I checked out his publications. He's doing all sorts of interesting research on this. Ultra weak photon emissions of hands and aging prediction. Yeah. So studies like measuring, you know, the rapidity of aging by how much light you're putting out, like literally how much light is coming out of your body. So like that old saying of like that those who burn bright burn the quickest or something. Yeah. Like, yeah, it's actually that.

It's really strange. I think more research actually has to go into this, but unfortunately, I doubt that it's all going to be relegated to Wu, all these little studies that pop up. It just comes up though in history over and over again. It's kind of put to the side because it's just so difficult to replicate. You also have an experiment that was conducted in the 1940s, still using a similar kind of effect. It was a Wilson expansion cloud chamber.

This cloud chamber is actually filled with a gas or vapor. It's usually water vapor and it's used to track the path of atomic and subatomic particles. It's a bit outdated now for, you know, especially we have the Large Hadron Collider, but it was used. But you have a Dr. R.A. Waters. He was the director of the William Bernard Johnson Foundation for Psychological Research in Reno in Nevada. He theorized that human or animal souls existed in the interatomic space between the atoms of human cells.

So he decided to test his theory using this cloud chamber. So he took a large glass hopper, he placed it inside the chamber and dispatched it with ether. So sadly he killed it. But at the precise moment of death, the expansion of the water vapor occurred in which the camera was triggered and it photographed, here we come back to the use of cameras, right? It photographed the condensation. Now it showed the form of the grasshopper that was like

pushing away, displacing the water particles. The little grasshopper's soul. Yeah. So apparently this was repeated. It was 40 to 50 times these experiments were carried out using frogs and white mice. Apparently, according to Waters, in all tests where the creature permanently died, so the ones where the creature didn't die, it was resuscitated, the

But even after eight hours of observation, a shadow phenomenon could be witnessed in the chamber coinciding within the shape of the creature. However, if the animal was revived, they were never able to find a condensation figure appearing in the photograph. So it's like, even if it was like technically clinically dead, but they revived it, the soul didn't leave the body.

Which has, you know, remarkable when you think about it, complications or connotations for the near-death experience. Because it's like, well, because we, even in science, it's like the moment of death is a little bit iffy now. It's like, it's usually classified as brain death, but it's like, what is the moment of death? You know, and it's like, when we talk about the near-death experience, people have been clinically dead for a long time and they claim to have these incredible experiences, but this is like, it never leaves and it can't be captured by this research.

So I thought about that, like I dug into it a little bit deeper and there are more details about just how far they went into this kind of research. And apparently it was replicated numerous times, but more recent experiments haven't been conducted. But of course, I'll link to these forgotten experiments in the show notes as well. So you can go and check them out for yourself. But

I wanted to continue this and this idea of photography being used to capture the supernatural. And you have a report actually by Raymond Bayliss, a noted, well-known researcher from yesteryear. Again, I pulled this out from a 1950s Fate magazine, but this is Attila von Sille. So von Sille was a really fascinating man. He essentially was a professional Hollywood photographer.

But his sideline jobs were two things. It was hypnotism and psychical research. And somehow in his professional photographic work,

he found that he was starting to use it in his psychical research. And in fact, he was awarded an honorary master's degree for his successful experiments in producing photographs of the supernatural by a Californian university. It doesn't say which Californian university. Well, it was before California is California today. Crystal Light University by Amanda Noel. Maybe. No, no. This is the 50s or the 40s, so it's got to be a little bit more legit.

But essentially this relates to Raymond Baylis getting word or hearing about what was going on with Von Sille's work.

And so basically he struck up this relationship with Attila and was like, look, I'm interested in paranormal phenomena and this kind of stuff. Do you mind if I make an appointment to come to your studio to see what you've been doing? And of course his response is yes, yeah, please come along. And he starts telling him about how they had conducted numerous seances and had used the camera to capture certain things.

But when Bayliss got there, he said, I was actually very impressed with his sincerity. Like he was a very sincere man. He was a complete willingness to cooperate and perform these experiments under test conditions that Bayliss was trying to impose upon him. And he spoke about hypnotic experiments that he conducted in the past, including regressing subjects back to previous lives. So that's a lot of the stuff that he was focusing on.

But very much into this psychical research, he realized that he could photograph discarnate entities during seances. He could get a subject when they were under hypnosis to be able to imprint their psychic impressions online.

onto film. So they would see strange things and would be difficult in trying to describe it, but he would produce unprocessed photographic film and would get the subject, which would normally just be like a random acquaintance, to go under hypnosis and then try to get them to put psychic impressions onto this photographic film. It happened over and over. And Baylis actually witnessed this many times. So I've actually got one of the images that comes up, but

Actually, bring up this first image, Ryan. This one? No, just skip forward from that one. It's number five, please, Ben. So look, because it's from a 1954 magazine, it's very difficult to see, but you can see a face in this, right? So this is from where they had put a subject under the influence of hypnosis. They knew that the subject was absolutely under, including doing things like they would hold ammonia.

underneath the patient's or the subject's nose and then tell them that it was flowers. And they'll be, oh, it's so beautiful. It's absolutely flowers when it was ammonia. It was a horrible scent. But what they would then do is they would start trying to contact people, entities, deceased loved ones, and then would

try to push them or put their image of them onto the photographic paper. And these are the sort of photographs that they were capturing. This is apparently in complete darkness that this is being conducted. And you can see that there's kind of like a weird, almost ectoplasmic effect going from the top right down to the side. But there's definitely a face. You can go, yeah, maybe again, pareidolia. You can see the nose and the mouth. It's pretty clear. Yeah, it's quite distinct. It's quite distinct that there's something going on here.

So Baylis conducted a little experiment first just to make sure that it wasn't Attila getting just a friend in and setting things up and kind of pulling the wool over Baylis' eyes. So Baylis showed up with an object in his pocket and he waited until one of the subjects was under hypnosis. And he says to this woman, he's like, okay,

what am I holding in my hand? Or what am I holding in my pocket? I'm sorry. This is what Attila says. What is Mr. Bayless holding in his pocket? And this woman's like, I see something long. It's shiny. It's a cross. But

No, it's actually not a cross. It's a sword, but it can't be a sword. It's just, it's too small. Now, she's actually quite puzzled about it. She's like, no, no, it's a sword, but there's no way you're going to fit a sword into your pocket. Of course, Baylis is rather astonished and he pulls out of his pocket a miniature silver sword.

Okay.

And they're trying to put images onto it. Now, that image that I showed you before of a person was apparently connected to the space to one of the people that was there. It was like a deceased loved one that had come through, much like that earlier report I told you of the guy who saw his sister. But in these particular experiments with Attila, apparently he's told by, Baylis is told by Attila, take the photographic paper and just hold it over your solar plexus as we ask these entities to come through.

And he's like, oh, okay, that's fine. And he says, let's ask something about atomic power, like atomic weapons. And he's like, okay, fine. So they wait and they wait and they feel like something had happened, right? They say to their amazement, this peculiar cloudy formation starts to appear in this very dimly lit room. So they grabbed the photographic film, they run it over to a hydro bath, they rinse it off and they look and Baylis claims that what was on this was a mushroom cloud.

Oh, really? He said it was a full on and not just like, oh, I see like a weird shape and this is a Rorschach test. He's like, no, it was very much a atomic bomb, like a mushroom cloud. And he said they could clearly see a H symbol that was on it. And these letters would come up quite often.

And he said that only a couple of days later when he was at home, there was a news broadcast that was talking about the hydrogen bomb. So for him, he's like, this is all weird kind of synchronicity that was going on that perhaps there was some outer influence that was there. But apparently Attila informed him that subsequent experiments also provided veridical phenomena that would validate many of these things, these images that were being caught on these photographic experiments. And this is just like Ted.

This is just like Ted Sirius. It's so similar. But there's no drunken alcohol being used in this. It's like a drunken alcoholic-fueled states. It's the same idea as transferring a thought to the photographic medium. Now, there's one story that you may be familiar with, but I'll just mention it because it's quite important. It's quite dramatic. It's known as the Kelly-Nadd case.

So, basically, Attila is like, come back to my house, come back to my studio, and we'll conduct some more experiments. And so Baylis shows up at the studio, and there's these two models. There's a Gretchen Lombardo and Michaela Kelly. Now, after a brief discussion, Miss Kelly apparently was eager for a new experience. She'd never done anything like this before, and she volunteered to be a subject of the evening's experiments.

So Attila set up the appropriate atmosphere. He lit a couple of candles, so there was this pleasant soft glow in the room. Asked her to lie down on a couch, got her to close her eyes, and then did the usual things of ensuring that she was definitely under. And this was including the ammonia. He told her that there was a bee about to sting her on the nose, and she flipped out. And he said, no, the bee's gone, and she calmed down. So he was like, yeah, okay, I'm sufficiently convinced that she's under. Now,

They waited as this candle was kind of flickering in the background. And she seemed to be somewhere far away because, pardon me, she was breathing quite deeply. And she suddenly says, oh, there's a man. There's a man now here with us. And she suddenly gets excited because she recognizes it. She's like, oh my God. She's like, that's my father. My father's there. And apparently he had passed away a number of years ago, right? Now this still could be

That it's like you're put into a hypnotic state and you're longing for a loved one. So there's her mind just generating this, right? But slowly, apparently, she raises her arm and embraces this invisible presence that seemed to be in the room. You can then hear her whispering to her father as if he's there. They're having a discussion. Her arms fall back and they actually hear her say goodbye, father.

Now they're sitting there for some moments afterwards to see if anyone else comes into the room. And apparently this woman does appear. There's a woman that appears in the corner of the room. No one else can see it. It's just the Kelly who's having this experience.

But she kind of waves her hand and she kind of waves this figure over. And Attila is asking her questions. He's like, what's going on? But she's not saying anything. Like she's all very quiet and she's seemingly very deep in trance communicating with this being. And it became evident that she was so in trance that she was unable to answer questions. That's how deep she had gone. So they're watching. And as they're,

quick thinking, right? Because this is how deep she's gone. Attila runs away, grabs a fresh batch or a fresh package of photographic enlarging paper and then rips it open and then like places it out, hoping to capture something. Like he holds it over her solar plexus and,

And he waits a little while. And then finally she comes back and he does ask, he's like, look, if there's anyone in the room, if there's any entities or spirits in the room, please, you know, impress yourself upon the paper. So he picks up the piece of paper and he goes into the dark room and he exposes it. And they wait a few minutes. They watch the developing trade, tensely seeing if something comes up in the dark and paper and

And it does. These shadowy letters begin to form. Now he removes this photographic paper and he pins it against the door and turns on the light. And he's like, this is weird. Under this normal illumination, they can clearly see the word NAD. N-A-D.

So he turns to Lombardo, Miss Lombardo, the other model that was there. And she's like, I don't know what that is. It's very strange, but we can all see it with remarkable clarity. So he returns to the entranced Miss Kelly and he gently awakens her. And she was, she is insistent that she was somewhere else. And he says, oh, he says, does NAD have any importance to you?

And she's like, and she's kind of looking like she's quite shocked. She's like, yes, that was the name of a housekeeper I had when I was a child. I was very much in love with her. Like she was a very wonderful person. Her name was Nad. That was her name. She'd passed away many years ago. So she wasn't sure that the form was actually was her, but she said there was no way she could get it out. Like she was there, but this figure apparently was this Nad. Wow.

deceased housekeeper from decades previous that had appeared. Now, Baylis looks into it and Baylis is insistent that there's no way that Attila could have known that. There's just no way because it's like It's obscure enough to Exactly. It's like, I mean, not that I will remember, but you know, thinking of the names of a kid like a kindy teacher you had, you know, it's like if you're going to a seance Blank. Yeah, like that's what

Like, that's what I mean. Like, you go into a seance, you're not going to be like, you know what? I'm going to mention the name of the teacher. I know. Mrs. Zerko, year four. She was awesome. Well, there you go. See, but that's the... I wouldn't know that, right? If I was conducting these... So to set it up, to do this NAD thing, unless they did orchestrate it between themselves, that's one possibility and the whole thing is fake. That doesn't seem to be the case. Again, the man seemed to be of impeccable reputation. So this kind of stuff continued. Where the verification cases come in is much later on. He says that...

He conducted experiments with something known as the Uber Mike case. And this was where essentially it was April of 1951. And they'd been conducting this demonstration of this psychic photography to a female client. And,

When they developed the film, it was a horse with a big Y imposed on the nose. And Attila's like, what the hell is this horse? Like, what's this weird sign? Ghost horse. Yeah. It was like, what is this? And she's like, immediately, the woman is like, it's my father.

And he's like, your father was a horse? She's half horse? Yeah, and she's like, no, no, no, no, no. She's like, my father was involved in the racing industry. He was a professional handicapper before he died. And he's like, so what's the why? And she's like, oh, yeah, but there was also an R. And he's like, well, what's the R? And she's like, well, his name was Robert. So this Robert, this R appears. Now they continue looking and there's also like the appearance of a C and a 113. And he's like, okay, well, what does this all mean? So...

With the Y, that day, just coincidentally, he opens up the racing pages of the Los Angeles Times. And he sees that on that day, there's two horses with names beginning with Y running. There's Uber Mike and Yazzie DeGerd that's also running. So there's one in California, which is Uber Mike and Yazzie DeGerd is at the Eastern track.

So he calls up Bayliss and tells him this story about what had taken place. And he asked him, he's like, write down Yuba Mike, write down the jockey's name. By the way, the jockey's name began with a C and the weight of the jockey was 113 pounds, which is all these things that came up in this photograph that morning. So he says, Attila says to Bayliss, this will be your test case. So several hours later, Bayliss is sitting there listening to the race and he hears that, yeah, Yuba Mike places for $46.80, which is quite a considerable amount.

back then. And the other one, the Yadz de Gerd, apparently won. So the two white horses that came up, and for him, for Attila, this was ample verification of a prediction that had come through with his psychic photography. So it's really just occurred to me that what they're doing is the same as a spirit board, that they're just using a different medium. Yeah,

Yeah, you're right. It's the same thing. Yeah. But they're using an instrument to bypass this impediment that we seemingly have as human beings. But think about it, right? If I was to say to you, oh, Ben, I have this incredible technology that allows me to transport anywhere on this planet. Like, it's amazing. And you're like, well, where's the technology? I'm like, oh, no, it's just like, it's like psychic. I can just use it. I can do it.

You'd be less inclined as to where I pull out a device like a PDA or a phone out of my pocket. I'm like, hey, I'll just use this. You know what I mean? It's like a physical- It's a prop. It's a prop. And that seems to facilitate belief. And in all of these things, even though we're talking about things that happened decades ago, over 60 years ago, this stuff is going on. Every single time, there's some type of instrument that's being used. It's like the table and the table tipping. Correct. It's just a prop to change.

to channel the experience. This was repeated. It's funny you should say table tipping because where is it? I was just looking about this today. This was, this occurred in the Skoll experiment. If you recall the Skoll experiment, so this was November 1993, the small village of Skoll in England. And,

Um, it's a case that we know, but if you're not familiar with it, there was a small team of paranormal investigators that tried to prove that understanding or the understanding that energy was key to, um, life beyond death. Right. And it's very similar to a lot of the stuff I've been talking about. There was a respected paranormal researcher by the name of Robin Foy, um,

And all these steps were taken to ensure that the experiment wasn't open to tampering or manufacturing of desired results. And these sessions would be held in a cellar that had no access points other than the main door, which would be locked from the outside. And it was a classic kind of seance experience, except the participants would wear armbands that were luminescent. So they could see if someone got up and tried to manipulate something. And the strangest part of this experiment for Foy, apparently, was that

Foy had placed a sealed camera film, a canister of film, in a box that was locked in the middle of the room. And they used their idea or their theory that they could use energy to manifest on the film and capture images of their guests, of their paranormal guests and entities that come through. Now, strange activity did seemingly occur throughout the sessions. People heard voices. They heard their names being called out.

Participants could feel themselves being poked by unseen fingers or even shoved in the back. But most importantly, given the group's energy theory, orbs of light were observed at various times throughout the seance. And the strangest part of all was that the camera film from the box in the middle of the table, seemingly once developed, did contain strange collections of colors and random patterns in some of the frames.

And in one image, it clearly showed what appeared to be a woman's face looking back at them. So this, 1993, is essentially a repeat of these experiments that were monitored by Baylis back in the 1940s and 1950s. That was

that was taking place. But the skull experiment and the people that were involved in that was actually repeated about a decade later. So there were a bunch of people that were involved in that experiment that traveled across four different European countries, going through Spain, and then headed over to the United States to repeat these experiments. Now, in that particular experiment, even though they were using camera equipment and that kind of stuff and tried to repeat this, one thing that really stood out was because you can go, well, look,

In these seances, there's a lot of theatrics that seemingly is involved. And people will say, well, that's part of the spirits expressing themselves. Skeptics say that, no, that's what's tricking people and confusing people. But in this follow-up skull experiment, they placed a table, just a small circular coffee table in the middle of the seance room. And they basically conducted their seance and got these entities to come through. But on that particular table, they had placed luminous crystals.

So these luminous crystals were all placed, like just glowing crystals. I don't know what material it was, but something would hold the glow so that it was dull, but they could see it. They weren't taped to the table. They were just placed like a clock, like a clock face. They claim that during this session, which was photographed, that the...

table itself lifted up and when the table lifted up it started spinning so fast that it looked like a fire wheel or like a pinwheel that was going off like at a firecracker night and the thing is though is if this was someone in the room getting up and doing this they wouldn't have been able to pick up the table and spin it they wouldn't have been able to spin it at that speed but they wouldn't have been able to spin it at all because those crystals were just simply placed on the table this was captured on film

Also on that room, they captured a whole heap of weird orbs that were coming through. This energy, once again, using this instrument of photography, seemingly validated those experiences that were taking place. And it was replicated over and over again.

Think about what's possible with a Pentax 17. Oh, I'm sure that there's a lot possible with a Pentax 17. Hitler's favorite camera. Why is it Hitler's favorite camera? Look, I'm not even going to go there. We won't go there on this episode. I just don't need the hate today. So of course, where this all comes about though, which I really want to just emphasize with this stuff, is that this history of the Phantom photography being used goes

goes back to people like John Keel. If you recall, there was things like the Phantom Photographers, right? It's like back in 1967, around the time that John Keel was investigating all of his weird Mothman stuff, there were numerous people that were having experiences of seeing lights in the sky or having encounters with strange winged creatures. They were also claiming that they were being harassed by tall, gaunt men that would produce like

Like weird, almost antique style cameras. That's right. The men in black would always take photos of people, wouldn't they? With these weird cameras. They would show up. Like there was this one particular incident. He says one Saturday afternoon, sorry, a Sunday afternoon, the spring of 1967, I was walking along 42nd street and third Avenue with a lady friend. There are very few people around when all of a sudden this gaunt, strange man came around a corner. He seemingly was carrying a camera. He raised this device and deliberately took our picture. He then turned and ran up the street.

My friend knew nothing about the men in black, so it wasn't unusual to see a tourist snapping pictures, but he said this was certainly strange. And she even remarked, that was strange. He was such an evil looking man. Why did he take that picture? How are you connecting this to the psychic stuff though? How is this connected? Oh, it's got no connection to the psychic stuff. My point is, is that it's the use of photography throughout this entire field of how paranormal events and paranormal, the supernatural are intimately, as I said at the start of the show, are intimately linked into

into paranormal phenomena. It has become a tool in just a wide range of fashions from whether or not it's weird psychic experiments to capturing photographs of the men in black. And so think about it, right?

You've got people like Jonathan Downs, a great researcher. I love his work. He's described on many occasions going out to hotspots in cryptozoology. He's focusing on cryptozoology, looking for Loch Ness Monster, like Ted Halliday describing similar things. Guess what happens? They try to use their camera to capture the phenomena.

All of a sudden, the shutter won't work. Or Jonathan Downs described when he's gone to these locations that the entirety of his batteries and his backup batteries have been completely drained, even though he knew they were full. It's like the photographic equipment is...

completely vulnerable to the intelligence behind the phenomenon. It only allows itself to be seen the way that it wants to be seen, but then it's also used to intimidate. So like all those stories of these men in black kind of things, it's like- Cheeky. Well, yeah. So this apparently, this image that you've got up on the screen here, actually, let me just skip over to this. So this was a photograph that was allegedly captured by Timothy Green Beckley, you know, also another, you know, wonderful researcher who sadly passed on.

Maybe it was. I mean, it was around the time. It was 1968, so maybe it was a Pentax 17. But apparently this is the earliest and best-known purported image of a men in black. It comes from 1968 in Jersey City in the United States, where a UFO researcher named Jack Robinson lived with his wife, Mary. The couple began to notice something strange going on when they would come home to find that their house had been searched and rummaged through, ransacked even.

especially their files about UFO phenomena. There was never any sign of forced entry or burglary. Shortly after this, Mary claimed that she began to notice a peculiar stranger dressed all in black that apparently would be hanging around or lurking around and loitering around their building and around their apartment. She said he was always wearing sunglasses and a heavy coat and just looked odd. He looked

out of place. So they contacted Timothy Green Beckley. He showed up and took a photograph. Apparently this man, almost close up, looked like a zombie. He had an unemotional zombie-like face. He took this photograph and the guy sauntered off. But there are multiple reports, and I'll link to this as well. We need AI to clean this image up. Oh yeah, yeah, of course. See his zombie face. Nick Redfern and Brent Swancer have both done write-ups in these sorts of cases of where, much like Jonathan Downs in the realm of cryptozoology,

and Ted Halliday and, you know, trying to capture images of the Loch Ness Monster. Like the Loch Ness Monster, so many people, there's like reports throughout the 1930s when it was like a real hotspot, right, of activity where people would take cameras and then always go and try to capture this thing. They would see the Loch Ness Monster. They would see like the humps and they would see, they would go to press their camera, the thing would just disappear behind the waves or under the waves.

They could never get it. It's like the phenomenon knew what was going on. But with this men in black stuff, it's like there are people that have attempted to take photographs. They've caught photographs of these things, but found that in more modern times, their digital cameras have been erased. Their SD cards have been erased. There was some film footage. There was actual footage that was captured by a woman who claimed that she had seen men in black type creatures because they were just off. I say creatures because while they appeared to be human, there was just

Pardon me, something very non-human about them. She filmed it and then she tried to send the file to a friend of hers. Not only was it deleted on her phone, it was deleted on the friend's phone. And just for good measure, the SD card of the friend's phone that didn't even have it was also deleted as well. That's the problem, digital. Well, but even with film. You know what's not digital? What's that? Pentax 17. Oh my God.

If you want to get a Pentax 17, I will have affiliate links in Amazon available in the show notes of this episode. It's a 35mm film camera that captures up to 72 images per roll. Available now, Pentax 17, the far right's favorite camera. Film is like really coming back. I know. It's really coming back. That's why modernity fears the Pentax 17.

What does it say? Japan is a bit like the Germany of the East. Poundless potential that must be contained by its enemies. Constrained by its enemies. I'm sorry. The screen is so far away. Okay. I'll read that article later. I've got a bad feeling that's going to get in trouble. It's coming up in Plus. I have a very bad feeling. Oh, look how long we've been running. Speaking of... I'm trying to hint at you to get out of this bloody segment for the last 20 minutes. I've got so much more. I've got so much more though. Coming up in the Plus extension. Non-human entities. I don't like them.

Ugly, hideous freaks in the DMT realm. Is that the future for humanity? Some people seem to think that this is what we need to do. We need to ditch our bodies and plug into the DMT matrix and merge with these hideous creatures. No, thanks. That's coming up after the break. Exclusive to PLUS. Head to mysteriousuniverse.org forward slash PLUS. Sign up today. Join us for our final season as hosts of Mysterious Universe.

MysteriousUniverse.org forward slash plus has all the details. This is our final season as hosts. There are going to be replacement hosts. More details coming soon if you want to apply. But make sure you're with us for this special episode

Season 34. And of course, on Tuesday, we have exclusive season for our Plus members as well. It's all at mysteriousuniverse.org. Can you get that creepy thing off the screen? No. Nine bucks a month helps support your favorite show. That's a wrap for this free edition of MU. Thanks for listening. Make sure you check out our sponsor, Pentax, for the Pentax 17. And if you're on Plus, stick around for the great stuff after the break. For everyone else, we'll catch you next week. Music

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