Microsoft Copilot and Bluon for HVAC Apprentices to Replace Toxic Training – Patrick Butler Part 2
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AC SmartSeal, the professional's choice. All right, welcome back. So we got Patrick Butler back for part two on the last podcast with him. I suggest you listen to it. We talked about some building automation stuff. And if you weren't involved in building automation in the past or you want to get into building automation, it's sort of a good precursor, just a good sort of basic idea of what it is. But anyway, on this episode, we're going to talk about how

teaching has sort of changed in the industry. It's not old school anymore, like the way it was, wrenches being thrown and the way apprentices get treated is a little different. And we can teach online now. We can teach on Instagram. We can teach on TikTok. It's unbelievable the amount of information we have access to, but you got to be careful who you follow, right? So this is part two with Patrick Butler. Let's get to it, guys. This is the HVAC Know It All podcast. I'm your host, Gary McCready.

This podcast is sponsored by Master. And if you guys are looking for additional training, commercial and residential training, reach out to your local rep because here in Ontario and even out West, they have training facilities and they are doing consistent and constant training on different things, commercial and residential. So check them out, guys. Check out master.ca. Welcome to the HVAC Know It All podcast.

recorded from a basement somewhere in Toronto, Canada. Your host and HVAC tech, Gary McCready, will take you on a deep dive into the industry, discussing all things HVAC, from storytelling to technical discussion. Enjoy the show. You wanted to talk about originally, now that we've gone through some technical stuff and done a little bit of teaching, you wanted to talk about

The way people were taught in the past as compared to now. And like, we're probably roughly, how old are you Patrick? 44. 44. Okay. So I got into field in 2005. Okay, cool. So I got into the field probably 2001, but I spent two years in school. So 99 is really when I got into the trade. So we're very similar in age. I've seen the old school teachings. One of my courses in college, taking my apprenticeship was

There's still like, like one of the older teachers, you still had the big ruler stick or whatever pointer stick and you'd slap it on the desk when you weren't listening. Like I was taught by, by people like that. It's funny now because now you can go on TikTok or Instagram and if you find the right people, you can get taught the same stuff that you got taught in those schools. But the problem is you can't get certified watching Instagram videos or TikTok videos. Sure. That could change one day. That could be, that could be an interesting topic on its own, but.

I'm sure you've been through both, both online and in class. Like what's your thoughts? So my history is I started in, I came in knowing nothing. I had a couple of years of electrical apprenticeship and I got into HVAC and I went through the union I'm in has a five-year apprenticeship.

So it's a formal training and it's at night. It's two nights a week. And you go to a school, which is the union owns, and you have all your stuff. You have shop time. So you work during the day and you go two nights a week for basically like a U.S. school year, September to beginning of May. Mm-hmm.

and it's two nights a week. And then when you get start getting towards like cooling season, they go down to one night a week and it's a five-year program. So you're working with journeymen during the day. You're being taught at night, mostly by guys who are in the field who are also teaching like I was, I taught for nine years there. So I was a journeyman working during the day, doing it and then teaching it at night, teaching the apprentices. And when I came up,

It was a lot more older guys, a little more cutthroat, a little more old school apprentice. Like, you know, you make the breakfast list, you carry all the tools and you get some verbal abuse. And that's how it was. And you just kind of dealt with it. You're like, yep, that's just what it is. And you get to some points where it was pretty rough, where I almost walked off jobs. And I'm like, I'm not taking this. Like, I'm here to learn. I'm not going to take the abuse. And it was like a while.

And I would say to myself, if I be, whenever I got into that position, I would never make an apprentice feel like that. I would always make sure that they're, you know, that they understand what they're there, right? We're peers. Okay. I've just been doing this longer. We're working together. You're my partner here. I'm also teaching you the trade, but you know, we're peers. We're, we're in the, we're in this together. I'm not going to mistreat you and abuse you verbally and call you names. Sure. Light ribbing. I'm not, I'm not talking about that. Like, but,

Making sure that they feel comfortable to ask the questions, to not feel like I'm going to call him an idiot or a jerk because he asks me, what is a thermistor?

And I'm like, I told you that two weeks ago. What are you talking? You know, no, I explain it again, you know, and I just find that I get better reaction and better retention of that information from the apprentices when I deliver it the way that I do in a more understanding, almost like, you know, like primary school way of like, like, all right. And I'm not saying kid gloves, but just explaining it in a clear cut way, make sure they understand it, they grasp it. And then we move on. And I've gotten,

you know, a lot of great reactions from that. Yeah. No, I like it because I came up the same way. I, I remember holding the phone. I called my boss from a supplier. I don't remember why I was calling him, but he asked me if I had a PO or something for the stuff I was picking up. And I was sent there to pick it up by somebody. And I don't know who, I guess they didn't give me a PO. And he's like, do you got a PO? And I said, no. And he just

started rifling me. I was holding the phone like a foot away from my head at the back corner of the, because it had a little landline at the back corner of the supplier for technicians to use. And he's like calling me stupid and idiot and all this. And I'm like, really, really? Just because I don't have a PO and I wasn't given a PO by somebody to pick it because I was just an apprentice at the time. And if you think about it, you still remember that.

Yeah. So that is like a form of like a trauma. He's like, you're literally still recall it and know what it felt like to do that. I, I, I, I,

I recall where I was standing. Yeah. You know what I mean? I recall like what it was like outside of holding the phone out here. It was, it was nuts, man. It's almost like, it's almost like it was a dream. Yeah. Yeah. I guess it's a form of trauma. Yeah. I guess. Sure. You know, the brain doesn't know the difference in trauma, right? Trauma can be getting yelled at by your foreman or it could be, you know, having someone burn you or getting hit, right? Your brain interprets it the same way. So it affects you the same way. And that's why,

I am the way I am because I don't want that. I want apprentices to look back and be like, you know, you know, Patrick was awesome. You know, professor, man, he was awesome. He was great to me, taught me so much. That's what I want to be remembered for. The positive impact that I had on them. And it might sound like a Hallmark movie, but I really mean it. And I love my I love my apprentices. I love my junior techs and I want them to do better than me. I want them to advance past because I can look back and be like, hey, you know what? You were a great apprentice. Great job. And I'm proud of them.

And that's what I think is more impactful for apprentices than the verbal. Let me ask you this, because I've had apprentices that were super willing to learn, just wanted to absorb everything. And if you told them something, they were doing it wrong. They wouldn't get upset. They'd just fix it. But I've had apprentices that were cocky. And even though I told them,

you're not doing that right watching them they would argue and say yes they are or they would they would always be like they have this kind of swagger to them that they shouldn't have at that point of their career yeah have you ever worked with an apprentice like that have you ever thought you know what if he's going to be like that i don't know if i want to spend my time on them have you ever been in that situation yep so if i have like a confrontational apprentice and

And let's say they're wiring a, you know, a brand new, what do you call those? The Ecobee thermostat, a Wi-Fi thermostat or whatever. And you're trying to explain to them, okay, you have to power the stat. I don't know. I know, I know, I know. I got it. I got it. I'm like, okay, you think let's, all right, so we'll get a try your way. Let's see what happens. And we'll go from there. Let him fail.

You know, let me know, because unfortunately, you might have to chip at that ego a little bit, because let's say you look at him, you go, you know what, this guy's got he's got potential. We just got to break through that little ego or, you know, get him to be more, you know, have more humility. So, OK, let's try it your way. You know, if you're not wasting too much time, obviously, you're not going to go through a whole half an afternoon. But, you know, half out again. Well, let me know when you're finished and then we'll go and I'll say, all right, let's test it. Run me through it.

And then when he goes and does it and sees that it's wrong and now it's not functioning, that's when we can have a teaching moment of like, okay, well, what do you think is wrong with what you did? And I'll basically have them tell me what I told them at first, you know, in the beginning. I'm like, okay, try that. Oh, okay. So you see now why I was trying to tell you to do this or to make sure common is landed. Right. And you get them. And sometimes you got to chip away at them if you feel they have the potential to do it. Yeah.

And sometimes you have to get, you have to say, listen, man, I appreciate you. I think you're doing great and you have potential, but your attitude is affecting how we work. And I don't know if I can work with this. So, you know, you may have to work with some of the other guys. And that's kind of how I've had one guy like that, where I had to say, you know what, I'm sorry. Cause I don't like really talking ill of guys.

when they're in their apprenticeship, right? Because they're learning. They're going to make mistakes, right? Of course. So I'll be like, you know what? I just can't work with that guy. I think I've only done it once in my, let's say, I've been doing it 20 years out of my apprenticeship 15. So in 15 years, I've maybe done that once where I actually said I can't work with that guy because he was just not teachable. Yeah. You said something that struck a nerve is letting them fail.

And it's funny that you say that because I didn't start getting good at the trade until I was allowed to fail on my own. Because the first, I think the first two, maybe even, yeah, two years, they just shoved me in a, go meet that guy at that job, go meet that guy at that job. And I wasn't progressing. I just, I didn't really know what to do standing on the site. I didn't want to get in the way of the techs because they were grumpy and

They had attitude, a lot of them. They're trying to get the job done and they don't want to sit there or they don't know good enough. I've literally gone into a technician's tool bag to hand them, I don't need that, put that back. Put it back in the right spot. I'm like, okay, so I'm just going to stand here. And then you finally get to a point where the boss goes, well, you're not really progressing, you're just

The reports I get back from the other guys is you just kind of stand around and like, what are you going to say? Well, he treats me like shit. He doesn't let me touch his tools. I feel uncomfortable around them. You're at that point, if you're in that type of culture, it's going to look like it's a negative on you if you're talking this way. So I was in that position and I said to my boss, I said, listen, I haven't even been given a chance yet. He said, give me a chance. Let me go do something by myself.

A couple of things by myself. So I started to do that and man did I fail a lot. Sure. Right. Cause I was the guy that would go, Hmm, what does that do? And I push it. Hey, if I pull this wire off here, what will this do? Like shorted out on something and, and blow a control transformer or something like that. I've done all of this stuff.

And that's what you need to do in order to get good at the trade. I'm not saying purposely go out and fail, but be curious and don't be afraid to fail because you're going to learn from it is the message I'm trying to convey. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because the, the failure moments, um,

small and big are the teaching moments. That's when you learn. You remember, I ain't going to do that again, right? So by failing and blowing some things up, you don't want to, but it happens, right? You short something out. Ooh. And that's why I always say, when you change a unit out, keep some extra transformers, keep some extra boards, extra fuses. It's going to happen, right? If you have a few extra spare parts that are older, you know, just so if you do do something, you can get it back up and running and be like, oh, we got to get a new transformer. But you have something on the truck

to get it going but yeah you you're gonna fail when you're learning this trade you're gonna make mistakes and it's okay to make mistakes but don't you know don't try to hide them just admit be honest say hey i tried to do this i made a mistake you know and i had my service manager joe who i worked with for t just retired for 20 years

He was the greatest guy if you didn't lie to him. If you tell him the truth and you made a mistake and you, you know, shorted out a new furnace board or, you know, you broke up

pumped because you dropped it if you lied off you didn't want to be on the receiving end of it but if you told him the truth and say you know what i made a mistake i tried to wire it wrong i missed this like hey no problem buddy that's all right we'll get it let's do it did you learn something all right you want me to show you and he'd be your buddy and be all friendly but if you lied no good right be honest admit your mistakes it's okay you're gonna make them i make them you make them

You know, keep your ego at the door, be humble. And that will really help you grow in this trade. It's asking for help and, you know, talking to people. Yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent. Okay. So let me ask you this then. That's kind of the old school stuff we talked about. What about nowadays? Because like I said, you can learn a lot.

If you follow the right people on any social media platform, there's the right people. There's the wrong people. And if you follow the wrong people and you do what they do, you could get yourself into some trouble. But if you find the right people and follow them, you can learn a lot. So what advantage does the young tech have? Even the older guys now that want to refresh or learn about the new stuff, what advantage do they have now with all these people online doing this? Some of them are doing it.

as they're doing it out of the goodness of their own heart. Some of them are doing it because they want to have a bit of a legacy and be that knowledgeable person in the trade. Some people have a business doing it where they build courses and stuff like that. So what is your thought on this whole new online way of learning? Yeah, so one advice on following people on TikTok, Instagram, all that,

Look at the comments. Like if you want to know if you're learning the trade and you don't know enough yet to know if this guy is knowing is what he's doing is look at the comments. And I say TikTok is the best for new technicians. The the comment section and the communities are a lot more accepting and a lot more understanding and are nicer. So look at their comments. If you see a lot of people praising them and being like, oh, wow, great job. Well, thanks. I didn't know that.

that's usually a sign that the person is educated on that, on that topic, that video is on because literally any, everyone has a phone, anyone can record a video and post it. So there are people on there who are giving some misinformation. Um, but overall, I think it's really, there's a lot of really good people on there. And where I started making videos is I started doing things where I've been studying this trade for 20 years. I absolutely love every aspect of

And I have a very large knowledge base of it because of how much I've taught it. Because you learn it really well when you teach it. Of course, yeah. I was doing it, teaching it, all that. And I'm very fortunate. And I have the passion for this. I used to say, I have it or they have it. You have it. It's like the passion for this trade.

to learn. I saw a Dilbert comic that said the knack, oh, he's got the knack. That's what they used to call it. But anyway, one great source that is, that I've used every day of my, of my life now is AI. I use Microsoft Copilot. There's also one through the Bluon app. They have like a virtual technician, which is an artificial intelligent, large language model that is,

They're amazing. I use the copilot one through Microsoft because it's free. And what benefits you have to this? So if I say, if I say, Gary, I need, you know, what is the sequence of operation for that Lars boiler? You go, okay, I've never worked on this one. You either have to find the manual or you have to go online. You have to Google it, right? You look up Lars model number, blah, blah, blah, find the right edition and then read the manual.

Well, with these, with AI, you can just talk to it like you would. You'd say, Hey, exactly what I said there. Can I have the sequence of operations for a Lars boiler? That's a million BTUs. It will go on the internet. It will find that manual. It will find the information for that manual, and then it'll show it to you within seconds. So it's time-saving as far as getting information and asking questions to someone who has like a knowledge on everything.

And what's good about Copilot is it gives you the source. It will give you a little number and you can click on the link to where it got the information from, which is important because some of these AI models can do what they call hallucinate. It's where they make something up. It's pretty rare when it comes to the Copilot. They give you the sources for all its info. And you basically would talk to it like you were asking a super genius, you know, where Google, you use keywords to search. You would do Lars, Boiler, Sequence,

million btu right you give keywords to help get you what you need yeah where the ai models it you talk to it the more you give it the more it gives back and gary it's amazing like i that's all i look i don't google things anymore i use the co-pilot for everything let me ask you this is it is it an app co-pilot or do you got it isn't it is an app it's built into microsoft edge web browser

Or you can go to Bing, which like no one used Bing before. They'd make fun of it, but it's built into it. And it's very powerful. It's based on chat GPT. If you've heard of that, you know, a lot of people, most people have heard of the chat GPT. That's like the

you know, the, the big name, like the superstore of it, but this is free. It's access to everybody. Oh, it's free. So co-pilot is a hundred percent free. Okay, cool. And you, there is a paid version that you can do more, but I don't pay. I do. You sign in, you log in with like your G your Google, or if you have a Microsoft account, you know, you have an Xbox, you have an X, that means you have a Microsoft account and use that. There's the app on the phone. And I mean, it's so good. It'll even talk to you too. It's, it's really wild. And

AI is going to be everywhere. It's already everywhere. So younger people coming into the trade, learn to harness the AI and use it because it's, you're going to be behind if you don't, it's like having every best journeyman in your pocket on every topic. It's really amazing. So now there's really no, if I ask a guy something or they ask me a question, you know, like, Oh, what's a GPM flow meter. I'll be like, did you look it up? No. I'm like, well, if you couldn't take the, just the two seconds to pump it into your phone, you know,

You know, like, do you really want to know it? Right. So getting them to use your research, you're going to do it. You have to read the manual. It's a crucial part of our job. It's not a lack of it's not an experience or a lack of knowledge. It's a crucial part of the job.

So this just helps in that process. I'm going to down, I didn't like, I have some chat GPT apps, but I've never heard of Copilot. So I'm going to, I'm going to download it and try it out. I tell everyone about it. It's like, it's like I work for them, but it's just such a great tool because it can do anything. It can explain the sequence of operations. If you walk up to a VRF, like you said, a Mitsubishi, you know, city multi. And if you ask it, Hey, what is the piping arrangement on this type of unit?

It will go, it'll find the information. It'll show you a diagram. It'll explain what branch boxes are, what those ref net fittings are, what all that stuff is. And it'll explain it to you. So it's really great for guys who are learning or you want to learn on a topic that you've, you know, you've dabbled in or you want to learn. It's, again, I can't, I can't talk about it any better. It's great. Cool. Well, generating emails, you name it, it does it. It's, it's the future. It is. We're, we're here. Um, I've always said, um,

You got to harness what you have in front of you to make you better at your job. Don't dismiss it and go, ah. Yeah. Because time and time again, when you dismiss things, five years later, someone else has been learning it and doing it and you get caught with your pants down because they're already better than you at it. Yep. And when some of these big, when you start seeing on job interview on, on job postings, it's going to say, you know, proficient in AI. It's just going to be part of our life in every aspect.

So learning it now and understanding how to use these things and how they work, I really think will help the guys. Like you said, it'll make you advance because if your boss says, oh, I got to go send you over here and you have it done in like 30 minutes because you use the AI to give you the information as far as sequence or how it operates. Now you're not spending the time having to read the manual yourself. You're getting it consolidated, almost like the...

what they call those, the cliff notes we used to use, right. Uh, for a book or a story and all the highlights, it kind of can do that for you. And it's cool. It's great. Awesome, man. Well, Patrick, I mean, this has been great and we could talk about so many other topics cause you're a wealth of knowledge and Hey man, I'm just here to ask questions. So that's what I like to do. I appreciate it. Ask and ask and learn about the guests and what their, what their expertise is really. So, um,

But thank you, man. Thank you for tonight. And we'll talk again soon for sure.