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cover of episode NOx Secrets HVAC Engineers Need to Know to Comply and Succeed in 2025 with Tyler Nelson Part 2

NOx Secrets HVAC Engineers Need to Know to Comply and Succeed in 2025 with Tyler Nelson Part 2

2025/4/21
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HVAC Know It All Podcast

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Gary McCreadie: 我认为,如果在服务电话、启动和维护期间不进行燃烧分析,那么您可能会错过从客户那里获得合法工作的机会。您实际上是在这么做。而且您也失去了确保客户设备安全运行的机会,或者失去了了解客户设备是否安全运行的机会。想象一下,您离开一台设备时,没有使用分析仪,几周后该设备发生故障,运行不安全,一氧化碳探测器报警,您本可以预防这种情况。 在燃烧分析中,哪些读数最重要? 从排水管处进行测试的风险是什么? Tyler Nelson: 我向技术人员传授如何使用燃烧分析仪来提高HVAC系统的安全性、性能和使用寿命。我解释了如何正确读取O2、CO和CO2的水平,以及为什么这些燃烧数值很重要,以及技术人员如何在安装、维护和安全检查中使用这些信息。我还讨论了插入探头以获得准确读数的最佳位置,以及为什么展示您的工作可以建立客户信任。 根据设备的不同,最佳歧管压力可能略高于或低于铭牌上标注的3.5英寸水柱。调整歧管压力后,需要等待读数稳定后再进行判断,因为读数可能会出现波动。人们喜欢燃烧分析,因为它既能提供数据分析,又能带来即时满足感。在设备启动和维护过程中进行燃烧分析,可以建立基准数据,以便日后参考和比较。在设备维护过程中,将旧的燃烧报告与新的燃烧报告进行比较,可以向客户展示维修效果。在燃烧分析报告中添加设备照片,可以更直观地向客户展示工作成果。通过展示燃烧分析报告,可以向客户证明工作质量,消除客户的疑虑。 氧气含量是燃烧分析中最关键的指标,一氧化碳含量也很重要,二氧化碳含量则由氧气含量计算得出。只关注二氧化碳含量可能会忽略一氧化碳含量过高的问题。氧气、一氧化碳和二氧化碳含量之间存在关联性,调整氧气含量可以影响其他两种气体的含量。氮氧化物含量也与氧气、一氧化碳和二氧化碳含量相关,但通常需要专用分析仪才能测量。应关注一氧化碳无氧含量(COAF),该指标可以更准确地反映一氧化碳的浓度。如果燃烧分析仪只显示一氧化碳含量(CO),则不一定是无氧含量。一氧化碳无氧含量(COAF)是重要的安全指标,数值越低越好。 在诱导式通风系统中,探头应放置在诱导风机上方至少1英尺,但不超过2英尺处。如果存在烟道罩,则应在烟道罩上方6至10英寸处进行燃烧测试。测试完成后,应将测试端口堵住。如果无法在室内进行测试,则可以作为最后手段在室外进行测试,但室内测试更准确。从排水管处进行测试可能会导致读数不准确,因为周围的氧气可能会影响读数。即使测试方法不理想,也比不测试好,因为可以说明已经尽力而为。由于越来越多的低氮氧化物系统被安装,对氮氧化物检测的需求也在增加。由于环境问题,对氮氧化物排放的关注度越来越高,这将推动氮氧化物检测技术的进一步发展。

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This chapter emphasizes the importance of combustion analysis for HVAC technicians, highlighting its role in ensuring safe and efficient system operation, preventing potential issues, and building customer trust through data-driven results. It also touches upon the appeal of combustion analysis due to its analytical nature and instant gratification.
  • Combustion analysis helps prevent unsafe equipment operation and potential accidents.
  • Analyzing every job helps avoid issues and ensures system safety.
  • Instant feedback from adjustments makes combustion analysis appealing to technicians.

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At Cool Air Products, we developed AC SmartSeal QuickShot with professionals in mind. It's the only product on the market that's 3-in-1, with sealant, lubricant, and UV dye all in a single application. It's non-toxic, non-flammable, 100% safe to the touch, eco-friendly, and compatible with all refrigerants. It's a safe solution option, backed by years of R&D, Intertech tested, and has sealed millions of leaks.

AC SmartSeal, the professional's choice. All right, guys. So if you listen to part one with Tyler Nelson from Sauerman, you can tell the guy's passionate about combustion analysis. This is part two. We're going to continue that passionate conversation with Tyler.

And guys, if you're not analyzing on service calls, on startup, on maintenance, then you're potentially missing a chance to extract legitimate work from a customer. You really are. And you're eliminating chance of having a safe running appliance or eliminating the chance of knowing you have a safe running appliance for a customer. Imagine walking away

from a piece of equipment and you didn't put your analyzer on it and a few weeks later something happens to that piece of equipment and it's running unsafely and CO detectors are going off, you know, you could have prevented that.

So let's get back to this conversation, guys. This is the HVAC Know It All podcast. I'm your host, Gary McCree. This podcast is sponsored by Master. And if you guys are looking for additional training, commercial and residential training, reach out to your local rep because here in Ontario and even out West, they have training facilities and they are doing consistent training.

and constant training on different things, commercial and residential. So check them out, guys. Check out master.ca. Welcome to the HVAC Know It All podcast, recorded from a basement somewhere in Toronto, Canada. Your host and HVAC tech, Gary McCready, will take you on a deep dive into the industry discussing all things HVAC, from storytelling to technical discussion. Enjoy the show.

Now, I noticed that you, because most furnace manufacturers stayed on the nameplate 3.5 inches water column. And I noticed you said the sweet spot of 3.2 to 3.8. Now, is there a reason you said that? I'm going to say yes, because I'm going to guarantee that you've seen systems running better at 3.7 or 3.3 on the analyzer.

Instead of just, hey, what is the manifold or what does the nameplate say the manifold should be? Let's set it to that and walk away. I'm going to bet you've seen it run better slightly under or over that 3.5. Is that my guess correct? You are correct. And I also give that range because depending on the piece of equipment, some will give that range. But I've seen things run at the 3.3, 3.2, 3.3, where I'm able to dial it in a little bit better than the 3.5. So I have seen it...

You know, and I have technicians going to, I'm going to inch it up. I'm like, don't go trying to go past 3.5. You can go to 3.6. Let's see what you get. But I've had that done where we're stepping it up. But what we're doing then, Gary, is we're waiting. I know the analyzer reacts immediately, but I want to see, I don't just take that initial reaction as it's true to form nature. And you can even see it on videos where people do these adjustments where it'll settle them where they want it.

And while they're talking, it deviates down a little bit or it goes up a little bit. You know, the indus of water column. We've all seen it in videos on YouTube. So it can happen in application. So I believe in adjusting. You know, we all want analyzers that react quickly and they do. I believe in adjusting, looking at the reaction and then pausing before thinking I have it nailed.

Because I want that pause in there. It's built in there as a way for me to be OCD and control the variables. Because this is, you know, people wonder why when they start to do combustion. And you've done it before. You've done combustion for a while. But they wonder why, especially if they're newer, why they like it. They like it because it caters to two things. One.

Everybody loves analytics. They wear smartwatches, they track their steps, or they look at how many views they get on a video that they post or whatever it might be. So people love analytics and they love something else. We all seem to love instant gratification. For example, if I order something on Amazon now,

You know, I'll be ticked off. Right. Or I'll be ticked off. I can't get it tonight between five and 12. I'm like, what do you mean? Don't you guys have drivers? Why can't I have it tonight? I want to have my, I want to drink espresso at midnight tonight. I need espresso for my espresso machine. All kidding aside, I'll have one after this, but anyway, so we want instant gratification, which combustion analysis enables you to have, because when you make an adjustment, the results of your adjustment are showed instantaneously by,

For example, if we're not, if our doctor says our cholesterol is high and they say, cut down on the pizza and the beer, come back and see me in six months. We got to wait six months to see what the impact was with combustion. We don't have to wait. So it caters to those two aspects of our personalities or the way that we operate, you know, mentally that really make us happy. And because there's a, once you start doing this, if you're newer to this,

You're almost going to be embarrassed as you are telling people that you like to do it. Don't be embarrassed because those of us that do it, dig it. And we really do like it. And we're that interested in it. And I mean, day one startup commissioning process, it's good to have those numbers too, because you can take those numbers later and you can, as you come back to do maintenance and stuff through the years, you can use it as a reference point to say, Hey, we have,

We're running the same or there's something going on here, but it's something to reference from day one. And if you don't have those reference numbers, how do you know how it ran that day? So that's important too, right, Tyler? Yep, it is. And you know what I do is I teach technicians to do this. I tell them to take the maintenance report of the system that they just condemned or the latest combustion report in the system they just condemned.

And then I tell them when they commission the new system with an analyzer to show the homeowner or show the building owner, listen, this is what you had before. This is what you have now. And then I encourage one more thing. You're going to like this. For the systems that we install, you can get the parameters of how it's supposed to be operating from a setup standpoint. Okay. What I do in our, for example, I don't want to make a sales pitch thing, but in our combustion reports, we can include up to eight job photos on our app.

So what I encourage technicians to do is you're going to beat the customer to the punch. You're going to Google their system. You're going to take a screenshot of the readings for that system. If it's operating correctly, you're then going to, or the ranges. And we also have MeasureQuick puts out a guide that shows the ranges of oxygen, CO and all the different, and excess air.

Even take a screenshot of that. Use it as one of the images and you're going to direct your customer to the image of how it's supposed to be set up and then to your commissioning report that shows the combustion analysis of how you did set it up. So instead of them taking your word for it, we are showing our work like in school when we did a math problem. If we just gave the teacher the answer, they're like, no, no, no, no, that doesn't work. Show me work. How did you get to that answer?

All the things we do now with combustion, we're always showing our work. So people will not doubt what we're showing them. So we're not only telling them how their system is supposed to operate, but we're also showing them how it's operating despite, you know, just taking our word for it, which we couldn't do before. Yeah. Cool. So let me ask you this. Is there a readout on the, on the combustion analyzer that.

we can focus on more than others? Like, is there, is there ones that are most obviously CO we want to know, like, is there poisonous gas and going through this thing at a high level? We want to know that, but out of, you know what I mean? Out of like O2 and CO2 and all that, what, what is, what is, what should be looking at the most? Cause some manuals, like some of these, these wall hung boiler manuals, they say nothing about O2.

Oh, two it's CO2 that they're, they're asking you to aim for. Right. Yep. Yep. I think you should be focusing. I think oxygen drives the boat. CO drives the boat and CO2 follow suit. And also making sure you have the correct fuel set on your analyzer. If your fuel is not correct on the analyzer, there's a coefficient assigned to every fuel and it's an identifier, which has the, all the information for that, for that fuel baked into that long decimal point or coefficient number.

So for those that are not aware, the way the CO2 and typically in 99% of analyzers out there, myself and the other competitors that I deal with for the most part, it's calculated. CO2 is calculated. So we're not talking about carbon monoxide. We're talking about carbon dioxide. Now it's calculated.

And it takes that coefficient, that long decimal point number, multiplies it by the percentage of oxygen the analyzer is reading. The resulting answer to that math is what gives you a CO2 value. Because you have an oxygen sensor, yes. You have a CO sensor, yes. But your CO2 is typically in 99% of the analyzers, it is calculated, albeit very accurately, because it's a chemical, you know, long drawn out number that's or that number that multiplier is created by chemists.

So select the appropriate fuel. So you make sure your efficiency is correct and your CO2 value is correct. But oxygen drives the boat. CO drives the boat. When you had Jason on here earlier, he did a very good job of explaining on the fuel rich side versus the air rich side of the equation and how if you focus on CO2 only that it's going after the wrong brass ring. Because if you're focused on CO2 only and you're negating the effects of the other things,

You can have the same CO2 value with the CO being high versus it being low. But the question is, what is it? And if you're not looking at the CO as well, that's an issue. So oxygen is the driver. If you dial in oxygen, your CO is going to fall into place. Okay. And not only that, your CO2 is going to fall into place. And then once those fall into place, I'll give you something for a future conversation we can have because this is where things are going. Your NOx is going to fall into place.

So it's like a magnet, Gary. Oxygen's here, CO is here, CO2 is here. And then over here to the side, NOX is over here and it goes like, it swings right in, right into lockstep. But we don't know it because we're typically using analyzers that don't read NOX unless a specific spec calls for it, whether it's NOX or low NOX.

So we don't know that, but we're dialing in those other parameters. They fall into place. So dial in O2, which dot, and then look at focus on O2, focus on CO, your CO2 should fall into place. And then also if your O2 is in place,

chances are your excess air is going to be in place. There are outlier situations where it might not be, which we can have a conversation for another time. There are a couple of furnace manufacturers out there that allow you to have, believe it or not, 130 to 150% excess air so that their 80% systems don't become condensing systems.

So there are those systems out there that we can talk about at another time. But again, O2, CO, CO2, and then everything else follows suit after that. And I focus on CO. I'm speaking of CO air-free. That's what I mean. COAF on your display. Yeah.

AF. Yeah. That's, that's a big one because a lot of, a lot of people don't know that. Uh, but I've seen analyzers that don't have CO and CO AF. If you see one that just says CO is that, should we consider that air free or not? No, no, no, no. Because if it's CO AF, it has, it should denote it because it's air free. It's, it's, as you know, it's your CO number with the oxygen factory, oxygen percentage extracted out of it. So, uh,

The analogy is like this. CO air free in combustion is your hell number. If your hell number looks like heaven, which means as far under 100 ppm as you can get under one cycle operations, you're in good shape. OK, that's the analogy. So if you had a CO air free number of, say, 40, your regular CO number might be 17, right?

It depends. So that could be the difference between red tying a system or somebody getting sick or not. So CO air free for combustion analysis, and you can use regular CO for monitoring of the ambient environment, which we can get into down the line for CO safety because every technician, every

If they're not wearing a personal seal monitor on their, on their person or on themselves, the, they should be using a combustion analyzer because that will keep them safe. And that's again, conversation we can have at another time. Okay, cool. So we'll end the conversation with this and I'm sure we'll talk for a few minutes on this one. Placement of the probe. Cause it's debatable across the board. And one of the things I was going to ask you, cause here we're like six, three, six venting. And I know some,

some people have said online, they drill into it. They put a, they tap in a brass plug. We're not allowed to do that here. And I don't think IPEX in general even allows it from the manufacturer as a, as a standard practice. They want you to cut, um,

properly like a gap out, um, chamfer the, the piping and then install an inspection tee with their, their plug there. Now, where should we be taking these readings? I know that, and I've seen this before where someone where just coming out of that induced draft motor as it, as it attaches to that 636 venting, there's like, uh, like drain plugs or drain, drain piping. Some people remove that and shove their probe probe in there or

Or they'll do it above the furnace where you'd install the inspection tee. Or some people have checked it outside. And all of this is debatable except for the six inches above the furnace in that inspection tee. That's the only one I haven't seen people fight about. So condensing systems or anything that's induced draft, no less than one foot above the inducer aisle up and no greater than two feet. Typical is you're looking at anywhere from six to 10, six to 12 inches above the breech.

You are always, no matter when you're creating a combustion test board, if you're allowed to create it, which you can here in the States and you can't where you are, but if you're going to create it or install it into a system, again, that's six to 10 inches above that breach is where you should be putting it.

You're always combustion testing if there is a draft hood below the draft hood. And then you are draft testing after the draft hood with a second hole in there. Okay. But I always typically teach or speak of the fact that six to 10 inches above that breach is where I'm creating that test port. And I'm also plugging that up accordingly when I am done. Okay. So that is another thing. We leave these things open. We should be plugging them up when we're done. They make a...

like a silicone type test plug that is tapered. That is at least an inch long that you can use for a multitude of applications and it's rated up to 600 degrees. So there's different ones, there's stainless steel caps, there's all kinds of different things, but that is my recommendation. We can test from the outside as a, as a mode of last resort. If you can't test inside, I always prefer to test inside versus going outside for anything. So if you can do it inside, that's what I encourage you to do. We're,

when we test outside and you're in a commercial and commercial application, if there is no test board possible, you know that there's so much oxygen surrounding the diameter of that fluid that it becomes an issue or so much, you know, space around that fluid becomes an issue. Residentially, it's much more accurate as long as you get the probe three, four, five inches deep, depending on the application and you can test. We make a, um,

For those, whether you're doing a water heater and not wanting to drill down into the draft hood or in an application, we have a curve and a condensing systems exhaust. We make a flexible probe, a seven inch flexible probe that you can actually insert. As a matter of fact, I think I have it here. Oh, sweet. Yeah. And I'm not a big fan of, as you can probably tell, of sales pitchy type things, but I'm just showing it just from...

An educational standpoint. I'm not a fan of it. Yeah. You're not showing it and then saying, but wait, there's more. So that would be the... Yeah, no, I know. So let me just do two examples. So I'll show you the rigid probe here. The regular straight probe with the positioning cone, which everybody should be using when you're inserting it into a flue pipe. Any good instructor will tell you that. But again, we make what's called the technician slinky.

so seven inch flexible probe but you're gonna take and bend so if i'm going out and i have a bend which i have pictures in my presentation of me testing outside of my own system i use both the spray probe and the flexible probe but the flexible probe goes right in and i can get it right up to there which means the farther i'm going into that vent or that that exhaust i'm able to get an even more accurate measurement and i know what my measurements are

inside versus outside. Not only that, but I tested inside and then tested outside within a minute of each other. You know, as far as, as quick as I could get my keister up and out the door and out to my backyard, I was able to test in that application. So we make something that can accomplish that. But again, preferred method for all listening is inside first. That is going to be the most accurate. And you might have to create that test board. If

follow the manufacturer specifications, follow your country's specifications. So for example, for you guys, it's a different animal up there. You can't create them. You have to have the actual pre-made test port or you have to test from the outside. Yeah. Well, it's a good point that you bring up because if it's a commercial vent, it's a big, large boiler or something like that. And then you've got

some large venting, like eight inch or something like that. Yeah. If you shove that probe in, you could be saturated with O2 all around it and your readings are going to be off. But what you say about residential, usually it's, it's a, it's a two inch, like the average home, it's a two inch pipe coming out. So you have less chance of being saturated with O2. So good, good point there. But I do, I do want to ask for the ones that have, and the ones that have argued, Hey, pulling out that little, that little drain plug. Cause I've done it before myself.

If I don't have a test tee on me and it's like last resort, I'm going to shove it. I'm going to pull this little drain tube out because it's usually like a couple inches above the inducer. I'm going to pull it out. I'm going to shove it in and get some readings there. What is the worst case scenario about doing it that way? Are your readers not going to be right? It comes down to, it's almost like a reduced version of the commercial application.

where you could have so much oxygen surrounding that space there where you're not getting an exact reading that you want to get. Now, sometimes it's the only option that you have. You got to ask yourself this. You got to ask this. Is it worth testing there in that spot or not testing at all? It's always worth trying to find a way to test, even if it might not be the most accurate, because you can make that statement. You're doing the best you can with what you have. Case in point, trailer homes, Gary, very difficult to do anything with your

We're seeing some more trailer homes now where they're being modified to actually create a test port, especially when they're used for the emergency management system. So, for example, if you had a natural disaster in Toronto and you had like three or four neighborhoods that were displaced, a lot of times whatever your government will do is they'll deploy or your municipality will deploy trailers for people to live in. Well, those have those kinds of systems in them that are very difficult to test.

Last thing you want to do if someone's just had a natural disaster is kill them or injure them with carbon monoxide while you're trying to make them comfortable.

So that's why a lot of these trailers, especially in the state of Pennsylvania, there's some being made now for the emergency management for PA that have test boards in them. So the actual people delivering the trailers, the technicians that work on them can actually combustion test to make sure that the occupants will be safe in there. So we're seeing more and more of that. So it's interesting. You've had other people on the podcast talk about combustion. You've had a lot of experience with it.

As I mentioned in the beginning, I think it's before we started recording, it has become in vogue. It's become more and more popular. Again, with the Jim Davises of the world, the David Richardsons and the NCIs of the world, and the others, the Jim Bergmans and all that, Measure Quick, becoming more and more popular.

but it's become popular for the right reasons. It's not going to be a fad. It's become, you know, our sales have gone up precipitously since launch where you think with everything going more electric, they would go down. It's been the opposite. We have had more contractors, Gary,

order analyzers with Knox and Lone Ox capability than you would ever think because of the changing in trend where we're seeing a lot more Lone Ox systems being installed, which we can discuss at another time. And I'm sure the other manufacturers have seen the exact same thing because it's in Denver, Colorado out here. There's we've,

I dealt with a couple of contractors at Baltimore Knox because low-knocks furnaces were being installed in Pennsylvania and they needed it for a spec. So we're seeing a lot more of it now where it needs to be accounted for. And that's going to be a growing thing we're going to see in the industry as we move forward. Because that's one of the things that is crushing the environment is the knocks out there that we're finally drawing attention to with the environmental concerns.

Interesting. Awesome. Well, Tyler, this has been a great conversation and it's, I think it's going to be one of many on this subject and many others. So I appreciate the time today, man. Thank you, Gary. I greatly appreciate it as well. And hopefully we shed some light on, at least on the commissioning topic where people maybe didn't think you need to commission because they thought everything was plug and play. Maybe they've maybe not realized that it's not the case and that they can start doing this in a more consistent manner. Awesome. Thanks, man. You got it. Thank you.